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>> so this afternoon, i am offering this resolution that the committee direct the chairman to issue a subpoena for relevant documents and testimony under oath from donald john trump. >> if trump lost, he would declare victory anyway. and do literally anything to stay in power. while trump ultimately failed, the threat is ongoing. republicans who stoked the insurrection are running for re-election. while a new crop of far right candidates will gladly overturn the next one if they don't like the results. and we begin tonight with the house january 6th committee closing out what's likely to be its final investigative hearing, public hearing, at least, with a remarkable step. one of three major developments

as it seeks to wrap up its work. the first, voting unanimously to subpoena the former president and making it very clear why. >> he's required to answer to those police officers who put their lives and bodies on the line to defend our democracy. he's required to answer to those millions of americans whose votes he wanted to throw out as part of his scheme to remain in power. this committee will demand a full accounting to every american person of the events of january 6th. so it is our obligation to seek donald trump's testimony. >> chairman bennie thompson made clear that trump was the central player and not just the january 6th attack on the capitol but also the extensive plot to overturn the results of a free and fair election. the committee spelled out in new details its second point, that trump's intention to steal the

election was completely premeditated, citing testimony from brad par scal that he understand from as early as july of 2020 that trump planned to declare victory even if he lost. in a draft statement prepared for trump to lead on election night written by tom fitten of the right wing group judicial watch dated october 31st, declared, quote, we had an election today and i won. again, no election had happened yet. the committee also referenced comments from two of trump's loyal henchmen, former advisers roger stone and former chief strategist steve bannon. >> what trump's going to do is declare victory. he's going to declare victory, but that doesn't mean he's the winner. he's just going to say he's the winner. >> i suspect it will still be up in the air. when that happens, the key thing to do is to claim victory. possession is nine-tenths of the law, no, we won, over, we won. >> new evidence also showed trump's state of mind

surrounding his attempt to overthrow the election, including counting on his stolen supreme court to be his trump card, only to have his challenge to the results in battleground states rejected. >> the president just raging about the decision and how it's wrong. so he said something to the effect of, i don't want people to know we lost, mark. this is embarrassing. figure it out. we need to figure it out. i don't want people to know we lost. >> today even as the committee hearing is under way, the supreme court shut him down again. rejecting his request to intervene in the court fight over classified documents seized from his mar-a-lago compound. some of the most damning new information in today's hearing came from evidence about what federal law enforcement and the secret service knew about the threat of violence prior to the final step of the former president's scheme, ininsurrection on january 6th itself. including a summary from advisers at the department of justice and fbi about communications saying things like, invade the capitol

building and engage in political violence. testimony from joint chiefs chairman general mark milley showed other agencies were also aware of the threat of violence, including a warning from a deputy defense secretary on a national security call. >> during these calls, i only remember because it was almost like he was clairvoyant. norquist says during one of these calls, the greatest threat is a direct assault on the capitol. i'll never forget it. >> we got a fresh look at what happens had that concern came to fruition. as the inflamed mob laid siege to the capitol on the 6th, in chilling new video showing the chaos that unfolded inside, as congressional leaders led by house speaker nancy pelosi did what trump wouldn't do, secure the seat of our democracy, the united states capitol. >> we have some senators who are still in their hide-aways. they need massive personnel now. can you get the maryland national guard to come too?

>> or some other agency that was under siege, and let me say, you can logistically get people there as you make the plan. >> why dent you get the president to tell them to leave the capitol, mr. attorney general, and your law enforcement responsibility. a public statement, they should all leave. >> trying to figure out how we can get this job done today. >> he believes that the house and senate will be able to reconvene in roughly an hour. >> joining me now is clint watts, national security analyst, distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy institute and former consultant with the fbi counterterrorism division. with me in the studio, nick ackerman, former assistant special watergate prosecutor and former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, and charles coleman, former prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. i feel incredibly undereducated.

clint, you are at a disadvantage, you're not here with us at the table. i want to start with you. that video, about a five-minute clip, it was really dramatic and showed speaker pelosi, chuck schumer, and others sort of doing the president's job that day. in a normal situation, if history looked back on a siege at the capitol, it would be the president making those calls. just as there is a national security analyst and somebody who advised the fbi and worked in counterterrorism, what did you make of just that? >> yeah, it's just bizarre that it's the president of the united states that's the impetus for the attack and also unresponsive in dealing with it. reverse of what you would think. it's one of the strangest things i am certain in american history, and it goes back to over the last year when we had hearings, it always is why did it take so long or where was the confusion? the president of the united states is in charge of the arms forces. there was not a lot of certainty in terms of who was in charge or

who could get the troops mobilized. i think you saw speaker pelosi did an amazing job. you saw her pacically organizing around, and when i look back at general milley, secretary mccarthy, a lot of people in the department of defense, it's a miracle they got troops there as quickly as they did because there was no chain of command acting in any sizable way. you heard nothing out of the white house trying to get those people to move back from the capitol. i think even now when i watch it, the idea that not only did they assault the capitol but they stayed and lingered for all that time, it's a travesty for the country. it speaks more broadly to what is leadership if you're the president of the united states and what if something else had happened? we saw a lot of chaotic uncertainty throughout the trump administration. this being the pinnacle of it, but at many other times, can you just imagine a decision making process more cay ought, how insane it was at the white house, and just how lucky we were that we didn't have a massive national security event that required someone with

temperament, someone with poise, and someone who could make a decision in a way to get all the wheels in motion. so that clip, i think what it really shows is how lucky we were to get through january 6th with even as terrible as it was, that it wasn't much worse. >> indeed. to the gentlemen at the table, nick and charles, the thing that is the most dramatic and sort of insane about it is that it was the president of the united states who was directing that attack upon his own capitol. and upon his own vice president. so this wasn't the president failing to do his duty because the attack happened and he didn't know what to do, so nancy pelosi had to do it. this was the president actually led the attack. >> that was the plan, that was the plan. >> he planned the attack. it was the rest of government attempting to organize a response to the president's attack on the capitol. >> yeah, and it also looks like the president also ignored the intelligence that came in. he purposely had to have ignored it, ten days before this attack,

the secret service had lots of information that there was going to be violence that day at the capitol. yet nobody did anything. which leads you to believe that somebody inside the government was putting their thumb on the scale and not permitting that information to go to the proper people so that protection could be put in place. that really deserves a very thorough investigation as to the people that received that intelligence, where it went, and why nobody did anything. >> and the reality is, charles, you have donald trump attempting to manipulate the department of justice to aid in this attack. he has his own people input at the department of defense to make this attack possible, making the national guard unavailable and other things. but you also have him doing that, knowing he lost the election. that was the other thing i think was established that was really important. let me play quickly, this is donald trump's people that worked for him in the white house talking about the fact he

knew with all the stuff he did that he lost. here it is. >> this is a fraud on the american public. this is an embarrassment to our country. we were getting ready to win this election. frankly, we did win this election. >> we want all voting to stop. >> he's calling for the voting to stop, but this is what his actual white house team was saying, this is cut one for my director. >> there was a discussion going on, and the president says, i think it's -- it could have been pompeo, but to the effect, we lost, we need to let that issue go to the next guy. meaning president biden. >> i remember maybe a week after the election was called, i popped in to the oval just to like give the president the headlines and see how he was doing. and he was looking at the tv and he said, can you believe i lost to this f'ing guy?

>> mark was with me on the 18th, and following that conversation where the motorcade ride back to the white house, he said does the president really think he lost? and he said, a lot of times he'll tell me he lost, but he wants to keep fighting it. he thinks there might be enough to overturn the election, but he pretty much has acknowledged that he's lost. >> charles, there are people on trial right now for seditious conspiracy who are acting on his behalf. he knew he lost. >> right. >> is he in your view a seditious conspiracy a think he might have to deal with soon? >> i think the question becomes an attempt. when you look at what the january 6th committee has done and what the responsibility of a prosecutor is to do, you are supposed to take away questions that the jury may have. reasonable doubt is rooted in questions. if you think about what we know now that we did not know from the start of january 6th, in terms of the committee and their work when these hearings began to everything we know now, there are so many questions that have

already been answered. whereas if donald trump never shows up and we don't hear a word from him, if he does not comply with the subpoena, we still know it's clear that donald trump knew this was going to happen, that donald trump wanted this to happen, and that donald trump used his power and authority to allow it to happen. those are the central questions that you're talking about when you're talking about sedition. the connections, those things, those have been established. those links have been made. his intent, that has been clarified. so the only thing that is left right now is to see what merrick garland and the doj decide to do with the information that has come out from so many different witnesses and all pointed to the exact same place. >> yeah, and clint, it was donald trump who was in control of all of these executive branches of government. meaning the doj, the fbi, all of these are in the purview of the executive branch. and so he in theory had the

tools to either stop an attack on the capitol or theoretically to wage an attack on the capitol. the secret service, all of that, they all work for him. i think people maybe are having a hard time getting their arms around it, how frightening that is in american history to have a united states president try to use and manipulate all the powers of government in order to stay in power. >> yeah, the travesty is he put people that support him against people that work for him. that's the strangest part of this, he actually incited people to go to the capitol and attack people that worked in the executive branch. the other wrinkle of this all that has been so strange is being allegedly pro-law enforcement and putting people on law enforcement. it always made no sense. i think this really speaks to why you see, just think of it from a foreign perspective, if you're a foreign country, vladimir putin, xi jinping or any leader around the world and you watch the leader of the

joouns stick his own people in a violent attack against his own institutions. remarkable to think about, and to think of the opportunities that you see as a foreign. go to the domestic situation today and how this is really playing out. that election conspiracy, that lie is powering candidates to assume offices to undermine the ability to conduct democracy. these are people running for positions like secretary of state, trying to do intimidation of poll workers. poll workers are either paid very little or do it voluntarily in many ways. and think about what they're facing in the midterms coming up, still based on the same lie that brought about january 6th. what will happen in this country is that every election is overturned by whoever is in power, this really corrodes democracy from the ground up. and i think that's where we sometimes lose sight of it. we talk about it at certain points, you know, in the election cycle. we're less than a month out, what's it going to be like on election day this time around

and will the lie die or it could it get a new life in a new form. >> you talked about, nick, donald trump, where did the information go once the intelligence came in? i'll tell you where it didn't seem to go is congress, because congress was completely unprepared. they were the potential victim and they had no idea it was coming, it seems clear from the video you saw. so they literally left the congress and the vice president quite deliberately exposed to potential death. >> that was the whole point. i mean, they wanted to stom that count. they wanted to stop the electoral count at all costs. and that was the point of the violence. i think you hit the nail on the head when you talked before about sedition, the oath keepers and the proud boys, because those are two cases that have an amazing number of cooperating witnesses. all of whom dealt with roger stone, donald trump's chief political adviser, and it all goes right back to donald trump. so we saw what the january 6th

committee has. but we don't know what these cooperating witnesses have told the department of justice. i mean, it's very likely that these people have a lot more knowledge about donald trump and exactly what his role was and what roger stone's role was as a conduit to donald trump. we have some tat bits out there from testimony from the summer with cassidy hutchinson saying that mark meadows had called roger stone the night before. but we don't -- there was no evidence today that really tied that together in a substantive way, but i think the department of justice may very well have that evidence. >> you know, the thing is, charles, this goes back, in the summer of 2020, donald trump was way down in the polls. the summer of 2020 is when he did his hold the bible upside down and tear gas a bunch of protesters in order to get there. he was sinking in the polls. it was clear to anyone who was following the campaign at that

point he was in trouble. the covid situation wasn't good. this is a guy who is looking at probable losing, at least possibly losing, and his people are already saying, we're going to say we won. we're just going to put a plan in place. this feels like a conspiracy that started months and months and months before the election even happened. so i'm wondering for the department of justice, is there any way you can not indict more people up to and including the president. we talked about this off camera, i think at this point, people are so exhausted and feel donald trump has so much impunity that no one can imagine him having to pay a price for it, but this feels like he and his cohorts were planning this in the summer of 2020. >> this was something that had been orchestrated like you said for months. he was embattled on all sides between his different legal cases he had going on, the different investigations he had going on, being impeached multiple times, being down in the polls. i mean, think about how many different things that had him climbing and swimming upstream

and climbing uphill. he knew he was facing a fight and this was his last hurrah. for a number of people, they looked at the situation as this is the only shot we have at doing anything that will remotely keep him in the space he wants to be. the question becomes, how much of that did he engineer versus how much of it did he sign off on? i think that's where some of the missing pieces have not come out yet. i'm hoping through the course of the doj's investigation that they're getting some of those pieces, and that's something that we're not seeing as the public, but it's important to understand, we do have the attempt. we do have the intent. all of those things are clear. but in terms of understanding how deep this actually goes when you're talking about an indictment and a prosecution, those are the missing pieces that are absolutely essential. >> very quick, rapid fire for the gentlemen at the table, if there's somebody else you would want to see subpoenaed in the case, who would it be. >> mark meadows. >> he should get the immunity here. >> give him immunity and subpoena him. >> tie him up in a knot so you

can get him to plead to something and give him immunity. don't forget, this whole stop the steal goes back to 2016 with roger stone and the republican primaries. this was a plot that goes way back then. >> my friend t goes back to 2000. roger stone and john eastman have been floating this theory that the vice president can overturn the election since 2000. like a lifelong dream. >> up next on "the reidout," with all the advanced warning of the potential for violence, was the capitol intentionally left unprotected on january 6th? that question when "the reidout" continues after this. s will decide... that's it. we're getting a bigger house! finally. but we got to sell this place. before we buy the next place. and then, in the meantime. so, how long are you staying? emily no! ooh a little cramped. i am cpap man. that is not a toy! or skip the in-laws. sell and buy your house with confidence with opendoor. move when you're ready. that's it. indeed.

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in this report received on december 26th, the secret service field office relaid a tip that had been received by the fbi. according to the source of the tip, the proud boys plan to march armed into d.c. they think that they will have a large enough group to march into d.c. armed, the source reported, and will outnumber the police so they can't be stopped. their plan is to literally kill people. please, please take this tip seriously and investigate further. >> back with me, clint watts, nick ackerman, and charles coleman. clint, let me go to you first. there's that information that there was a secret service field office report that the fbi had received, a report there could be violence on the sixth.

we know that. there's also a text message presented in the hearings tonight, going to have us march there to the capitol, potus is going to just call for it, meaning the sedition act, unexpectedly. or just call for them to march unexpectedly. how is it possible that the fbi, clint, and the secret service could have failed to pass along a dire warning about the potential violence and should chris wray maybe appear at a hearing and answer that question regarding the fbi? >> yeah, it's a little surprising in terms of the way they talked about it over time. because it's just odd, right? why didn't they bring this up? i think the secret service message, i can tell you, joy, i saw that same post. everyone saw it. i think if you lived in washington, d.c. in the month prior to january 6th, you knew this was coming. >> yep. >> what's confusing to me is why

is a collective organization, the federal government, didn't take some responsibility for it. i think there's a couple things to think about. one, washington, d.c. is the worst city in terms of coordination because it's so much federal plus the district trying to coordinate things. i think that was a big part of it. the second is, in terms of defending the capitol, why weren't the capitol police informed or brought up to speed about this, if they knew the proud boys or any of these groups, the oath keepers, were trying to be outnumbering the officers on duty that day, then you would obviously want to increase that. another point that i think is super important which has come up in some of the hearings is the leftovers of the protest in the summer of 2020, where you had general milley caught out there. you had secretary espar caught out in there a weird situation where they looked like they were involved with donald trump when he was going into the tear gas situation, which put everybody on a rear footing. they didn't want to be seen as the military getting involved in

anything involving the democratic process but what was was there at the time was martial law. general flynn calling for martial law, saying the military was going to mobilize. in effect, what that created was this delayed reaction time across the board. intelligence was not shared and the answer i have not heard over the last year and a half is what is the fbi and federal law enforcement allowed to watch on social media, when are they allowed to trigger an vection, what leads to a full field, what we say is a full field investigation, and a response into this day, just looking from the outside and having worked in a lot of these agencies, i don't know who is in charge of that. i don't know what they're able to watch, i don't know how they could stop another attack in this way when the signals are right out in the open. you and i, i'm sure we talked about it before january 6th happened, and yet all of us watched it unfold knowing it was going to happen. >> everyone i knew, law enforcement friends, were saying stay away from the capitol because donald trump, by the way, said it was going to be wild on january 6th. everyone around here knew

something bad was going to happen potentially on january 6th, but nobody paid attention to it. charles, the other potential explanation, because the or here, is that if you think about the proud boys, they had nurtured relationships with law enforcement for years. the leader of the proud boys, enrique tarrio, was the head of latinos for trump. that you have these federal agencies who knew these were the president's people. that they were trump's people coming. it wasn't black lives matter coming. >> absolutely not. >> so there's one theory that they didn't want to look like they were having a big sort of militaristic response to the president's people. but that doesn't fully answer it for me. because if you know that people are potentially coming armed to the capitol, you can't even bring a pocket knife into the capitol. so doing nothing seems suspicious. >> that doesn't hold water. we know if this were any other group of people, if this were a group of 100 of the world's best and biggest muslims that showed up on the capitol that day, and

it was a facebook post about it, it would have been shut down a week before it even happened. so i think that the notion of we don't want to overmilitarize the president's people simply doesn't hold water given the level of information they had. they knew these people had actual weapons with them, and they knew they intended to use them. the other thing that's important to understand is, i am not convinced and i'm pretty sure, as a matter of fact, that the intelligence had information in it that let them know that, hey, there's actually law enforcement who are going to be a part of these people. these are our military folks and armed force service members who either are current or retired who will be a part of this group. so the idea that, you know, we don't really want to cause any trouble with trump's followers, that doesn't hold water, especially because you knew about the violent intent of these people. >> i'm going off script here. this is element three for my wonderful director here. this is donald trump during the

presidential debate in 2020 talking to the proud boys. >> give me a name. >> white supremacists -- >> who would you like me to condemn. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> one of the things we heard in the hearing today is when donald trump said that, the proud boys literally stood back and stood by. that the proud boys were using that language that you had donald trump being able to militarize and demilitarize that crowd, as he spoke, they acted. he says go home, they went home. they were literally acting on his orders even in the crowd. but donald trump telegraphed that he had some influence, right, over the proud boys. and then it turns out he sure did. >> he did. i mean, the person who had the input over the proud boys is roger stone. >> the security. >> it goes back before that, where roger stone had relationships with all of these people. so this was a group that trump was already using and had

contacts with indirectly. he wasn't doing it himself. >> that's right. >> he had roger stone doing it. and that's why roger stone is such a critical piece in this whole story that has not come out publicly. >> you're absolutely right. and his relationships were not just with the proud boys. they were also with the oath keepers. we're going to talk about that because we have a documentarian later in the show. what i want to acknowledge, if you see me with my black pin, it matches the one that charles coleman has on. he gave it to me so i want to thank you for the pin. i got swag. you don't normally receive swag when you're hosting the show. >> i had to share it. you embody that, you exemplify that, so it's such a pleasure. >> i was not trying to solicit that compliment but i'll take it. thank you all very much. >> coming up, trump crony roger stone, as we mentioned, played a starring role in today's hearing thanks to the work of documentary filmmaker

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it shows stone calling for violence and suggesting way before trump actually lost that he could just declared victory regardless of the outcome. >> let's just hope we're celebrating. i suspect it will be, i really suspect it will still be up in the air. when that happens the key thing to do is claim victory. possession is nine-tenth of the law, no, we won, [ bleep ] you. you're wrong, [ bleep ] you. >> right to the violence. >> joining me now is one of the documentary filmmakers, christopher guldbrandsen, director of a storm foretold. what did you learn over the course of doing this documentary about roger stone's relationship to the conspiracy? did he talk about in more specifics the idea that they would simply keep trump in power

no matter whether he won or lost? >> yes, i would say he began already in july of '21 to discuss what to do. it seemed like he was pretty convinced that it would end up as a defeat, and at that point, roger was -- roger stone was actually on his way to prison. and on july 9th, the day before president trump commuted roger's sentence, we have a recording with roger stone where he actually predicts pretty much exactly how it eventually ends up after the election in november. >> was the idea that he wanted trump to remain in power for himself so that he would be available to pardon him? was it that or simply that he simply believed trump ought to be president forever because he's a republican and he's his

ally? >> well, it's hard for me to say, but if i was to give a qualified guess, if that's something roger stone and donald trump shares, it's a win at all cost attitude, and as mr. ackerman mentioned earlier on your show tonight, this goes back to 2016, where stone and trump actually -- it's exactly the same playbook as they realized or tried to realize in '16 then when trump surprisingly won, it became irrelevant, but basically, they were applying the exact same strategy, and they were in the same situation, believing they were headed for defeat. >> let me describe it to you. i'll play it. this is a bit from today about roger stone's connection to some of these violent groups, the oath keepers and the proud boys. take a look. >> joshua james, the leader of the alabama oath keepers, provided security for roger

stone and was with him on january 5th. this is the picture of the two together on january 5th. james entered the capitol on january 6th, he assaulted a police officer. earlier this year, he pled guilty to seditious conspiracy and obstruction of congress. perhaps even more disturbing is roger stone's close association with enrique tarrio. the national chairman of the proud boys. roger stone's connection with enrique tarrio and the proud boys is well documented. by video evidence, with phone records the select committee has obtained. >> what were you able to observe about roger stone's relationship to these extremist groups, the proud boys, the oath keepers? >> well, on january 6th, we were the only reporters inside the

willard hotel, and i was together with roger stone and joshua james and other people of the group from oath keepers. and what we observed was, of course, a very close relationship, roger was asking joshua james for advice about going to the ellipse. we had a situation in the morning where we were about to leave for the ellipse where trump was going to give a speech. roger was scheduled to speak himself. but was canceled from the list at the very last moment. he became upset. and decided to return to his hotel suite and watch the speech from there. and that was a back and forth discussion where some of the other people in the group when we got up to the room again said to roger that he should calm down and he was still relevant and roger then said out into the open, just you wait and see what i've got coming. and so there was a very -- there

was a tense atmosphere and an expectation something would happen. >> and needless to say, something very, very big, very bad happened. thank you, christopher guldbrandsen. >> up next, while today's hearing detailed events in the past, it could not be more relevant for the future of our democracy. we'll be right back. the power the ozempic® tri-zone. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. announcer: ozempic® provides powerful a1c reduction. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. and you may lose weight. adults lost up to 14 pounds. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have

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our institutions only hold when men and women of good faith make them hold. regardless of the political cost. we have no guarantee that these men and women will be in place next time. any future president inclined to attempt what donald trump did in 2020 has now learned not to install people who can stand in the way. >> congresswoman cheney is right. the only reason trump's plot failed is because there were republicans across the country who were bound by duty and actually followed the law. but trump has now driven many of them out. yet another reminder the former president's assault on democracy has never stopped and now with the guardrails gone, what we have left is the current batch of republican candidates who are willing to do anything to grab and keep power, including stealing an election. according to "the washington post," 291 out of 569 republican candidates for the house and senate in key state-wide offices

are big lie believers. there's republican candidate for michigan stait christina karamo who claimed democratics have a satanic agenda. there's a republican minnesota secretary of state nominee we has called herself an election denier in state. and jim marchand who has said when he's elected, president trump is going to be president again in 2024. then there are senate candidateses like blake masters and ted bud who have questioned biden's victory. they would join eight senators who voted to overturn the 2020 results. they don't include those involved in the plan to steal the election like ron johnson and mike lee. these republicans would help bring trump back to power, which one historian has warned would be the end of the republic. joining me is tim miller, cohost of the next level podcast. this is the thing, right?

what we have seen in these hearings is a lot of republicans testifying because it was republicans who donald trump was pushing to overturn the election, and at least at the state level, they weren't willing to do it. that ain't true no more. these shoved out those people and they're being quickly replaced by people who will do it next time. is that message seeping in among republicans you talk to or do they just not care? >> unfortunately, i think they just don't care. you know, i think that liz cheney has been very smart on this and has focused on a lot when she talked about it, i saw her last week when i was in arizona, and she was campaigning locally sxdz in arizona, this is why you can't support the republican like mark finchem as the secretary of state candidate who has been one of the most ferventthe same is true with sof these other secretary of state candidates. it was these lower office people, that, a lot of times, we're in the bulwark, and pun intended, between trump's

attempt to overturn the election. brad raffensperger in alaska, steven richards, a county recorder in arizona. god love stephen, but who would've thought that the county recorder would have such an important role in our democracy. the problem is, up and down the ballot, those votes are being replaced. many, lost and primaries. some, retiring. it is just as true in the senate, as it is on school boards. so, i think that many of the normal republican, so to speak, you might do the right thing next time, have put their head in the sand and, are ignoring this reality, so they can stay in power. or, like they say, they retire, go down to florida, where they can take it easy. >>. >> and people like ron johnson, for instance, who is running a strong reelection, you would think that someone who is involved, that openly, that is in the hearings, and his name has shown up in some way, would pay a price for that. if they don't pay a price for

it, people are reelected after having supported an insurrection, to me, it erodes our democracy further because what it tells republicans is, there is no cost, do you should go ahead and do it next time. >> this is the frustrating, strategic question for democrats. on one hand, you want to bang the drum about this, have people over the head and say, this is so important, you need to vote for democrats this time, because of this issue. i think that is why this hearing, and reportings, are important. the other thing is, when you look at the real data of what swing voters, either people who consider one candidate, or the other, or people who consider voting, or not voting, what they care about, row is the bigger issue. inflation is the bigger issue. so, this question is, do we bang them over the head to make them care about this, or do we focus on higher saliency issues? i agree, if you are rewarding people that participated in the insurrection in, they get reelected, they will just be

more emboldened next time. so, it is absolutely critical that those folks are defeated. so, the question is, what is the best way to defeat them? if there was an obvious answer, the strategist should be doing it. >> i think of some of these people. there are candidates out here, republican candidates, who are running to say that people are demonically possessed. what they think is the way to win, many republicans are saying, well, my democratic opponent is a demon. that works for some people. you know makes me lose sleep at night? the number of americans who feel that they don't mind if we're not a democracy anymore as long as, if in their mind, the right people are socked in the face, and they can feel, good, we've got those immigrants, or whatever. the people don't mind. that's what i worry about. >> we will go to a dark place if we think about that too much. that is a reality. look at georgia. georgia is a prime example. how can herschel walker have

36% of the vote? it's so important. the question is, out of raphael warnock beat it? i think that some people, this really, want to say, call them demonic! play their game! the reality is why we are not is because he's winning over a lot of former republican types, who look at him, and he seemed safe, he seems moderate, they don't seem too crazy, and herschel is so crazy, i'm gonna go with warnock this time. it was sometimes are emotional and stink, you have to fight it, and will prefer to ensure that someone will protect our democracy is winning this race. >> tim ryan is a good example. sometimes all you need to do is see you my normal, and say in, and stable. emotionally. you are not going to do anything like make women award of the state, or make ten-year-olds give birth, right? i guess my last question here, to, are you hopeful that, at

some point, someone in the republican party will say enough? is there anyone with the moral authority to say, we actually need to believe that elections are real? >> i'm not hopeful. and that's why i think it's important to bang on the secretary of state races. they've excuses. we care about abortion, or tax cuts, or whatever, so i'm holding my nose to the republicans. there is no question of secretary state races. every republican needs to be asked, will you support mark finchem? will you support the insurrectionists in nevada, michigan, and these other states? their only job is to count votes. no excuse for the ben sasse of the world. to oppose those folks, and are still being cowardly. i think that is the big test that, unfortunately, i think the republicans are going to fail. >> unfortunately. it is frightening, because, like you said, they will have to keep a lot of things in their heads, all at once. row is a huge issue. the cost of things, is a huge issue. this, whether we have a

democracy, nothing else matters. if it's just an autocracy, that's it. that is tonight's read out. don't go anywhere. after a break, i am back with rachel maddow, nicole wallace, and many more of my msnbc colleague friends for a two-hour recap of today's dramatic january 6th hearings. you don't want to miss it, it will be great, and we will see you in the nearby studio very soon. ver soon it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. [ sneezing ] are you okay? ask your asthma specialist oh, it's just a cold. if you have high blood pressure, a cold is not just a cold. coricidin is the #1 doctor recommended cold and flu brand.

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michael's back. and he's more dangerous. he isn't dead. we finish this now. let's go.