hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. imagine this, having a day that is so bad, that watching a congressional committee vote unanimously to issue a subpoena in your name wasn't even the

worst part of the day. since we last met, donald trump responded to that development in the form of a meandering, unhinged 14 paige letter addressed to bennie thompson. we'll spare you the much debunked claims, the kicking and screaming, random sentences, inexplicably in all caps except to say nowhere did trump commit to complying with the subpoena and even reporting trump may want to make that interview with the committee a live one. we'll talk to a committee member to find out if that is on the table. as a matter of fact, though, trump's kwaurl with the january 6th committee is one of a number of separate avenues of legal peril for the twice impeached ex-president. all of these stories every one of them broke within hours of one another. we'll run down the rest. there is this seditious conspiracy trial of far right oath keepers related to the capitol attack an trump is very much present in all of those

proceedings. evidence presented in court shows that militia group's members viewed trump's as a call to action. something we will continue to follow and drill down on. plus, it is never a good thing when an audience at a debate both laughs and boos at you, but that happened to gop wisconsin conspiracy senator ron johnson. we'll show it to you. in new york a filing from the state's attorney general, letitia james, revealed a shameless trump plot to evade responsibility in the $250 million lawsuit since days before letitia james' office filed. trump org representatives created a new company with the very same name in delaware. the same day the civil lawsuit was announced they filed paperwork to register trump organization 2 llc in new york.

it's a question we ask again and again, is that legal? we'll have our top legal friends ready to answer that. of all the areas of grave legal concern for donald trump, no story is more explosive for him right now than the developments in the investigation surrounding the classified documents seized by the fbi at mar-a-lago in august. shortly after the supreme court rejected 9-0 yesterday donald trump's emergency request to allow a special master to review the documents, we learned of a key witness in the probe. quote, a 39-year-old navy veteran who went with trump from the oval office to mar-a-lago after his presidency told fbi agents he moved boxes of documents at trump's request. even just one of these scandals might have been the end of donald trump's political prospects. taken together they represent a degree of scrutiny and pressure perhaps unmatched in american

political history. that's where we begin with, dellin barrett from the "washington post" is here, scoop after scoop on the mar-a-lago developments harry lipman, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general and with me at the table eddie, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton and msnbc contributors. dellvin, your story about a trump employee who was at the time unnamed broke while we were on the air two days ago. we read every line of every paragraph of that story. you've advanced that reporting and we know who he is. take us through what you have learned >> i think this is an important part of the evidenced that was collected in this critical period after the subpoena was sent to the trump folks in may, and what they have collected is an important witness accounts and also, just as important and sort of buttressing that is,

this security footage which shows this individual, we're told, moving the boxes. you know, this individual's account changed and that's important to assess their credibility, but i think what's especially important to investigators is that his second version where he talks about getting the instruction and moving the boxes is backed up by the video footage. that's a key point for investigators. >> yeah. i mean, harry, i don't know how much more rock solid evidence can be than witness testimony corroborated by something that happens before your eyes on security camera footage. talk about the voracity of a one-two punch like that on the evidence side. >> first you have the media trying to protect him which plays into his control, but yes, he fess up and you have the videotape. when this came out it smelled very bad, but there was some possibility that trump had distanced himself. we've had over the last couple weeks some he very important

evidence come out, devlin's story, of course, is huge, but also, we had another lawyer alex can nan say trump directed me to do these things and as part of devlin's story we have trump him saw pawing through the boxes and looking for sensitive materials. so that really puts him immediately, not just at the center of the whole document retention, but at the obstruction. this is after the videotape comes after they've received a subpoena, both before and after. in other words, the evidence is very strong that trump knowing of the investigation, takes efforts to conceal. that is the absolute core of obstruction under federal law. >> i want to ask you, devlin, to take me through what you understand the timeline to be between the witness testimony, what was obtained on the first, the security footage they had,

and i believe there's been a request from doj for additional security camera footage. do you know if this witness has provided additional testimony? is there still more they're looking to corroborate with that request? >> we know the witnesses talked to the fbi at least twice. we don't know that the -- the whole parameters of the video they've received. there are data points out there that suggest that when they get video evidence in, roughly around early june, that that evidence covers, you know, a lot of may and, obviously, may is a critical time period in this investigation because in early may, the subpoena is sent, and our best sense is that this, you know, may to june time period is super important for the fbi deciding that there is something to be concerned about here. and so that's what we know. there's a lot of -- we don't have a ton of specifics on these things and we can't draw i don't think sharp lines as to the

exact start and end to some of these things, but we know the general timeframe we're talking about and it's that may-june space. >> this person is a former military aide. these kinds of white house staffers become close to the principal and usually go everywhere with them. that person has a lot of training in handling classified documents. do you have any sense if he's a key witness on the criminality of the mishandling of defense information as well or simply the obstructive acts of moving things around the complex to the president's residence at his direction? >> i don't have a sense of that. i would caution you that like one of the things in this person's background if you look at it, he was a military cook and a valet and, you know, obviously, it's a very sensitive position to work so closely with a current president and then later an ex-president, and, you know, i don't know that he necessarily has a great deal of background and training in secret intelligence issues.

obviously, working around the president is a very important and sensitive job. >> harry lipman, you know, last time we were on the air we didn't know this individual's name or background and we're learning about that from devlin's reporting and reporting in "the new york times," the footage showed the former military aide who left the white house and then went to work for trump at mar-a-lago moving boxes from a storage room that became a focus of the justice department's investigation, the inquiry centered whether trump improperly kept national security records after he left the white house and obstructed the government's repeated efforts to get them back. as part of its investigation the justice department has interviewed mr. nauta on several occasions according to one of the people that started before the search warrant execution at

mar-a-largo. mr. nauta is not formally cooperating with the investigation of trump's handling of the documents. does that make it -- what is the difference between answering questions and not officially cooperating? >> yeah. it was an interesting detail and i think they purposely put that in. so the difference is, that he doesn't have a specific cooperation agreement that either disposes of potential criminal charges, promises him immunity and the like, but talking to the fbi, as he's done three times, is certainly a form of cooperation and as you and i discussed a few days ago, if he lies, that's a crime in and of itself. it's not a minor matter that he's doing it. it basically does bring home the fact that they're looking for here which is trump's personal investment. so formal cooperation or i think is a way of letting -- trump

letting him not be seen as being in the fold of the government as against trump who, you know, he's loyally served for many years. >> devin, when you developed this reporting and then sort of went back and looked at what we knew right after the court approved search of mar-a-lago, it is clear that they really knew what they had, and that they were always pursuing evidence of both criminal mishandling of national defense information and obstruction seems to potentially be tied to this witness. can you tell me how you evaluate sort of what this witness may have helped them develop on the obstruction side? >> right. i think you see that, if you look at the court filings. obviously, the justice department has put quite a lot of information into these court filings, but there are some things they summarize in very broad terms it's hard to know what they mean. i think when we learned of this

witness and what this witness said, it made some of the court -- some of the more obscure parts of the court filing make more sense. if you look at the recent supreme court filing by the justice department, they have a sentence in there that says, the fbi developed evidence of i believe the phrase they use is of obstruction after the may subpoena was issued. that seems pretty clearly to be a reference to this batch of evidence. as has been described to me, this witness is considered very important, security footage is important and those two things overlap and weave together almost like strands of a rope, you know, together they are much stronger than they are individually. >> harry, help us understand why the justice department, with this sort of evidence, corroborated by security footage, wouldn't go ahead and charge the obstruction case? >> you know, we've talked about that before. first, a quick point, this is the exact kind of evidence that

they had fresh to supply to the magistrate to get the warrant in the first place. here's a guy, he's right here and made it clear these things have happened and the kind of evidence they don't have as to the other documents that are either here or there or whatever. that's how they got it. this started as a mission to get the documents back, and as i've suggested, they didn't have initially the strongest evidence about trump's personal knowledge and involvement. they're developing it, but, you know, it's a former president, you -- if you shoot at the king, you better kill him. i just think that it's -- it advanced very far very far but to have beyond reasonable doubt the case against trump you need several pieces of evidence like this. you have to put him, apparently hasn't gone yet into the grand jury and make sure his story will stick. you have to really kick every

tire very hard before advancing the most consequential prosecution the doj will ever -- would ever have brought. you know, no surprise it's not immediately pulling the trigger on it. >> your reporting from wednesday and the newer story with more information about the witness, made clear that what he has testified to is being directed to do these things by the ex-president. he is the witness, at least one of the witnesses, that ties the obstructive acts to donald j. trump. talk about what is being done to sort of preserve and protect this witness as far as you know? >> well, as we were reporting the story, it was clear to us that officials are concerned for this person's security and, you know -- they don't want to make this person's life much harder than it already is going to be, but to be honest, it's not a

huge collection of people that could even, you know, fit some of these characteristics. there's also a -- i think within the government, there's a general resignation this information was always going to come out at some point. so i think there is that concern. i think they do consider this person to be a very important witness, and look, this is a high stakes investigation. there's no way to, you know, talk around that or skirting that issue. it's high stakes for everyone involved, not just the former president, but all the people around him. >> i mean, you know, harry, i guess i asked that question because it is stunning to see this public facing. it is really important, a lot of what the public understand about the ex-president's potential criminality, we understand from the combination of the unprecedented nature of the unsealing of doj filings as well as the investigative journalism covering this case, but i want to press you on -- and i really

want to make sure we understand -- this person has said that donald trump told him to move classified materials. it doesn't seem like in terms of a category of witnesses there's anyone more vital than that. what is your sense of sort of the importance of this witness and what should be done to make sure that that testimony is preserved and protected as well as the individual? >> okay. so to preserve and protect you put him into the grand jury, you know, if they haven't done it already. in turn, i do think this odd detail i talked about, he's not formally cooperating, that i think was to do him a sort of solid and let, you know, people know he, you know, he's not formally become a traitor to, you know, the mob boss as it were. there's been all this sniping it's been reported within the trump camp of who are the rats, et cetera and probably as devlin says, there's already been some

focus on him. but to get his -- protect his testimony, you formalize it, you know, in -- before a grand jury to protect him. you do what you can. he's now, you know, his name was -- had been -- kept secret for a time until just i think yesterday, and i think it just sort of come out. these things happen. they protect him as much as they can. it would be unbelievely foolhardy for anyone to try to hurt him now and implicate a long list of federal crimes, but, you know, the rubber hits the road for witnesses in these kinds of investigations. the rubber has hit the road for him. >> so eddie, i guess i pressed on this line because we know from the january 6th committee witness tampering is something that didn't just happen to political appointees. there was reporting in the 1-6

committee in a dramatic sort of end of one of their public hearings over the summer, put up evidence of someone close to trump tampering with witnesses an their investigations and ensnared these kind of employees, people that might have been long-time government employees or park service employees who work in the residence and what's amazing and what i refuse to allow to become normal, it is not normal for a politician to ensnare a former mults cook and aide in a criminal conspiracy to take and lie about returning classified materials and obstruct the investigation. >> absolutely. tampering is kind of baseline. >> baseline criminality. you have to watch mob movies to know that's illegal. >> the underlying sentiment in your question is these people are dangerous and what does that danger mean for this man. this young man who has come forward. going back to harry's point about the deliberate nature of the investigation, the piece by piece, if you're going to shoot at the king you need to shoot the kill shot, quote, unquote, i

hate to use that language, but thinking about november 8th, this kind of political reality that is looming over the deliberate process, the legal process, and if the political landscape changes, i don't know what we do. >> what do you think about that, harry? >> i also don't know what -- the stakes are so high on a number of areas, you know, mar-a-lago and elsewhere. the doj does its job and they do protect them and they do charge to the hill if there's any effort to change. let's be clear about that. merrick garland and the department of justice will not be deeply affected in their basic mission, whatever happens at the midterms. but a lot of other things in the country, i was just thinking yesterday about the revelation about the secret service, are all very much on the table should the house in particular go to the republicans.

the short answer to this question, though, and, you know, in particular is it will -- they will stay the course. >> i want to give you the last word and ask for your analysis based on your reporting on the mar-a-lago investigation as to how sort of active and what the pace of it is in your assessment? we cover almost incessantly the legal battle over the documents, but it's clear there are witnesses providing evidence about other aspects of the case and i wonder if you can weigh in on that >> i think what's going on is what happens in a lot of federal cases which is that 90 or more percent of what's happening we're not seeing. but it is actually moving fast. i think the challenge is that no federal investigation moves as fast as the public would like to see it move. so it will feel slow to some people, even though i think when you talk to folks who do this stuff for a living, this case has moved quite fast and it's

been sort of racing since i would say mid-may. >> devlin, congrats on the scoops this week on this and thank you for joining us to talk about these developments. harry lipman, thank you for talking us through the developments all week long. great to see both of you. eddie sticks around. when he come back we learned a lot yesterday about who was really calling the shots on january 6th. at least we learned who was trying to take control of the growing danger unfolding at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. one of the most compelling things that happened in the hearing is never-before-seen footage. now there is more of it and we have it. incredible behind-the-scenes footage of a fired up and very much in command and control house speaker nancy pelosi from that day. we'll show you some more of that video we have obtained. later, more on that escalation from the january 6th committee and we will speak with a committee member, zoe lofgren and someone who knows firsthand what it is like to go up against

donald trump, trial attorney barry burke, all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. house" continues after aui qck break. ♪ what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us. (driver 1) it's all you. (driver 2) no, i insist. (driver 1) it's your turn. (burke) get farmers and you could save money with the safe driver discount just by having a clean driving record for three years. get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. (driver 3) come on! ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates,

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michael's back. tide hygenic clean free. and he's more dangerous. he isn't dead. we finish this now. let's go. the white house has its hands on something we think important and special. much more of that footage from january 6th that most of us saw for the first time in yesterday's hearing. the entire video evidence that house speaker nancy pelosi's daughter alexandria pelosi shot working with hbo was shared, all

of it, turned over to the committee. the footage represents the most intimate look yet at how deeply enraged congressional leaders of both parties were at the lack of any semblance of a coordinated response from the executive branch to january 6th. footage also reveals how house speaker nancy pelosi led other lawmakers as they scrambled to protect the capitol and their colleagues and their security forces, the law enforcement officials who protect all them. this is the first time you're seeing most of this. some of it we saw in snippets yesterday. here's nancy pelosi and chuck schumer speaking with the secretary of the army demanding approval of the deployment of the national guard. watch. >> i want to call someone right now. i want to speak to the secretary of defense. speaker pelosi and i are here. can d.o.d. or who else, is there a general in charge of the national guard. d.c. has requested the national

guard and it's been denied by d.o.d. i would like to know a good reason why it's been denied? i apologize for being so -- please move it. the whole capitol is rampaged. a picture of someone sitting in the chair of the senate. we've been eswraktsed. shots fired. we need the full national guard component now. was it denied first? okay. then i won't take you -- we need them fast. we've all had -- i've never seen anything like this. we're like a third world country here. >> i have something to say, mr. secretary, i'm going to call the mayor of washington, d.c., right now, and see what other outreach she has, police departments, leader hoyer has mentioned, and also, that we can deliver the good news that you are now going to, instead of blocking the

national guard, that you will -- >> more people in the senate. >> it's not my personal [ inaudible ] i told them i had to talk to my boss. >> then did you talk to your boss? >> i did. they never said -- >> thank you. keep working. we need all the personnel we can get before someone gets hurt. >> yes, sir. >> okay. >> so just again, to explain exactly what was going on in that clip from the film, that was speaker pelosi speaking with the army secretary. at that point they learned that national guard had been denied, it had been denied and they're on the phone with the army secretary who says, i have to speak to my boss. pelosi pointedly says instead of blocking the national guard. they knew by then they had been blocked. the country, you felt this

watching this, but the film makes it clear, the country was leaderless. there was no one running anything on january 6th except the people in that room. democracy was under attack. someone had to take control of the insurrectionists chanted her name, speaker pelosi demanding a larger and faster security response. speaker pelosi and schumer phoned the acting ag rushing for order that democracy would prevail. here's more of that call. >> mr. attorney general, it's senator schumer and speaker pelosi. i'm going to put you on speaker phone. is federal law enforcement, is the full arm of the judicial branch, the -- of the department of justice doing everything they're supposed to be doing here? have they started making some arrests? >> i don't have an update.

what i can tell you is we've been rushing people from all available resources to protect the service, uniformed secret service and assistance from the federal police department to get as many people as quickly as we can to the capitol to assist the capitol police. >> okay. i want to ask you this, the capitol has been totally overrun. you know there are certain senators and congressmen still in their offices there? >> i have heard that. >> okay. we need -- i mean, i've talked to the d.o.d. secretary and army and they're sending military, but are you sending every federal arm available and how about dealing with the -- steny hoyer is here, the prince george county police, other police are available? are they being called on and used? >> i don't know the specific answer on that. the prince george's, i do know

that we are -- the capitol police and committee resources as possible as quickly as possible. >> will you ask the president to make a statement to ask them to leave the capitol? >> so as you might guess, we're coordinating as quickly and -- >> no, please answer my question. answer my question! >> senator, i'm going to do everything i can do. >> does that include asking the president to get these people who are followers to leave the capitol? >> and so -- i'm trying to get this as fast as possible. >> it's already too late for that. >> the importance of this, so could i just ask for forbearance to let me -- >> i'm going to give you a phone number. i would like you to get back to me when you have asked the president to make a statement

that they should leave. >> the statement doesn't come for many hours after that conversation and when it does it comes with, quote, we love you. that's donald trump to the inser rec shunnists. executive editor of the recount, with us at the table, new york times mark and eddie is still here. i was not in the building like you were. i was safely here in this very studio, and it is still so traumatic to watch that and you were there. what did you think watching this footage? >> well, the footage is stunning. it's kind of a cliche to say that at this point, some of the most extraordinary footage we've seen and we've seen so much video, you think about this event has been, you know, we saw that new york times individual reconstruction and multiple, the committee has done multiple reconstructions of what took place outside and inside the

capitol and some of the scenes -- refer time we see them and get new footage it deepens our sense of how off the charts horrific and dangerous and destabilizing and what an existential threat this whole thing was to our democracy, like people used to mock i think some people on the right still do mock, when people say, you know, our democracy was under attack. we were this close to losing our democracy. when you see these -- these every iteration of these videos but particularly this one, this iteration, you realize like it's not hyperbole and you can see in the reactions of those leaders, of nancy pelosi and chuck schumer and others, just how acute their understanding was in real time. you mentioned that i was up there that day. i was talking to one person who was in d texting one person in one of those rooms, saying to me in real time, they had just received word they had been denied the national guard protection and this person at

the time in real time, the person said, you won't believe how effing impressive nancy pelosi is right now. and i -- i never got details from that source and social security so much going on that day what do you mean by impressive, what's she doing. but seeing it now, you can't but be struck by what an incredibly cool, commanding, under the greatest pressure in the world, cool and commanding leader nancy pelosi was in that world. it reminds me, i don't want to trivialize it by saying this, i remember watching that at the academy awards when will smith smacked chris rock across the face and rather than collapsing into a puddle or falling into shock, he got back up and kept on performing. that's a minimized version of this. i understand the metaphor is not perfect, but i was blown away by that. and i'm blown away by this. watching her at this moment, with that level of threat,

seeing just how collected she was at every turn that we see in this video. >> you know, i have asked every journalist that has been on this show since that attack was ongoing and i still ask this question, who is functioning as the country's commander in chief. who sat atop the nation's military. i worked for a president and when he got a colonoscopy, and he was under anesthesia you had to transfer those responsibilities of america's commander in chief while you were under. the country had no commander in chief. and she's on the phone with pence who is in the basement but she's basically running the federal government response to an unprecedented attack on the u.s. capitol and she's got all, ticking through, you know, do you know the capitol has been totally overrun. it's clear the federal government doesn't have -- the executive branch doesn't have eyes on what's going on. they can't get a deployment of

the national guard because the army secretary informs them it's been blocked. so it seems it's not that donald trump as the commander in chief sends the military, she works it through pence and loosens. some of the mystery has been solved. we did not have america's sitting president functioning as the commander in chief that day because he abdicated those responsibilities. nancy pelosi was very much on the phone mounting a security response to an unprecedented siege of the u.s. capitol. >> and to understand that against the backdrop of how she was characterized by republicans defending those people who engaged in the insurrection is mind blowing. i'm not -- i'm thinking about this not in terms of people who made their decisions. i'm thinking about this footage not in terms of those who watch msnbc or those who watch fox news, i'm thinking every day ordinary americans taking in that footage and seeing in real time something that felt like if

we had television, you know, the storming of the bassstill. there was, in fact, an attempt to overthrow the government and you see this woman, steely, eating a slim jim, trying to hold the -- trying to hold things together. it's quite unnerving. >> let me just say, before anyone loses their you know what, the room was full of republicans. they weren't roaming the halls because it was just a tourist trip. they weren't out there, you know, rubbing shoulders with the insurrectionists. they're in the room too. some of them acting the most anxious of all. >> i mean, the thing that's striking we have to remember what was going on outside that room. the fear, the chaos. i mean you have the congressional leadership in that room, but outside you had members of congress of both parties running for their lives alongside law enforcement officials from a mob at the direction of the president. i just think, you know, you really saw someone who was in

command or was attempting to regain democratic control of the country, and its military at a time when i would argue, nicolle, it wasn't that the president had kind of completely let go of control, in fact, he was purposely -- >> he was on the other side. >> he was on the other side using what turns out to be a very terrifying group of people who believe a lot of lies that the country is being stolen from them, who are willing to commit violence to overthrow american democracy. so you really get a very clear sense of not just what the stakes are, but what the story is. this story has unfolded sometimes it's hard to kind of get a bigger picture, see the forest through the trees, but now i think the american public thinks the january 6th committee understand the story of what happened and why. that's powerful, but the next question becomes, what is being put in place now to prevent this from happening again? because that's my fear looking at this footage.

we still have the former president wanting to be back in the white house. if this was to happen again, do we have a plan in place to protect democracy? >> here's the answer. if it happens again, it will be because -- it's not a what will we do? j.d. vance sent money to an insurrectionist defense fund, donald trump had a vigil for them. if republicans prevail in the midterms this will become the new normal. they have the answer. democrats plus liz cheney and adam kinzinger are the only ones. i have strained the system on what we're able to do. we got this footage in and trying to get more loaded to show it to you. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll show you more footage just in to "deadline white house" including nancy pelosi working on how to communicate with the american people about what has just happened. we'll show you that next. ou that >> just pretend for a moment it

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voting yes on prop 31 will end the sale of candy flavored tobacco products. saving kids from nicotine addiction. vote yes on 31. we've been sharing with you this brand new january 6th footage filmed by alexandria pell sollie, the daughter of nancy pelosi, an accomplished filmmaker who shared it with the

january 6th select committee and shown last night for the first time. msnbc and "deadline white house" have obtained all of it. most of it never before seen. this clip is house speaker nancy pelosi coming up with on the fly, what she wanted to communicate to us, to the american people, about what was happening. >> today an assault was made on our democracy. it had the support of the highest levels of our government. an assault was made on our democracy on the capitol of the united states. it had the -- it had the anoint -- it was anointed at the highest levels of our government. it, however, cannot deter us from accomplishing what our responsibility is today, which is to validate the election.

to that end, we are -- together we are in a location that we should proceed today and at the capitol. we knew we would be part of history. validating the election of joe biden, in spite of various ill-founded objections to the electoral college vote. we would not -- we did not know we would be a further part of history. >> and everyone is here. nancy is here. what we're trying to -- >> put forth such a shameful picture of our country to the

world, again instigated at the highest level, from the highest levels. today, the day of the epiphany -- >> we're back. she wrote that speech or conceived of what she would say to the country at 3:37. it was far from clear, john heilemann, that country could be -- that capitol could be secured, that they would do what she says there, that they would go ahead and certify the vote for president-elect joe biden, but she's there not just making sure it happens, but writing the address to the nation after it has. >> right. i mean, you know, if you remember some of the body cam footage we've seen over the past months, some of the most brutal violent attacks on capitol

police officers on the west face of the capitol took place after that. you know, there was still brutal hand to hand combat going on all the way to the 4:00 hour if i remember correctly. things were still at that moment very much in doubt about how all this was going to turn out. you think about it in the context of other things we've seen with the frustration of schumer and why is it right now that the capitol is under attack and we can't immediately move massive strike force military style engagement to lock this situation down instantly is a reasonable question. that's playing out while she is crafting a reassurance, historically -- reassuring statement about the strength of our democracy, about what is about to happen, about the orderer, about the fact that someone still is in charge, a thing that connects to the foundations of continuity that

have guided america since its founding and has her eyes on history and on trying to strike the right tone in a moment of abject panic, not just in that room but around the country. i will say nicolle, one thing i wanted to say before and want to add quickly, nancy pelosi, one of the most chilling things we saw yesterday, i still -- i find it literally chilling to me is the woman that you catch that glimpse of a woman, one of the insurrectionists in the capitol screaming, if she doesn't come out here now, we're going to come in and get her. you've seen that over and over again. it reminds you that the demonization of nancy pelosi, which has been a standard tactic of the right for decades, you know, she has been turned into -- she has been a more persistent punching bag than any democratic figure in the last 20 years in american politics. there is a lot of attacks at aoc and joe biden, but she has been

demonized so thoroughly over the course of 20 years and the point about it is that that's where you see it's taking its toll, there are -- there's so much anger directed at her particularly for no good reason. this is not just about a thing that happened in 2021. it's about a thing that's been building in the republican party and stirring up that kind of violence and anger for a long time and that's a very vivid example of it, i think. >> eddie, there had been some, i think, lack of clarity about why there wasn't a strike force, there wasn't a robust response, and the reason as has been told by the committee, because donald trump called in the attack. donald trump sent them there by tweet in december, and he wanted to join them as late as 1:55 p.m., the movement of donald trump from the white house to the capitol, that wasn't called off. the secret service didn't put away their tactical gear they were going to wear to protect themselves until 1:55. >> you saw the speaker

struggling for verbs, anointed interest the highest level of government, instigated by the highest level of government, then she ends with that try to find that phrase, this is a day of epiphany. something has been revealed. the question that we have to ask ourselves is what exactly was revealed. we're not -- we're still not sure. some of us are, but we haven't settled the question yet. >> there's another reason that things unfolded as they did that day, which is that the threat of domestic terrorism had been ignored for over a decade in the united states -- >> especially those united states. >> and especially those four years. >> and especially in those four years. but even before that because of the political implications which are especially difficult. it is difficult when you have a small element within democratic society that was a threat to that democracy, that's not new in the united states, it's not

unique to the united states. but we have to confront it. i think this footage is another moment or a series of moments to investigate our denial about that and investigate why it is that we feel as though the democracy will just kind of continue on on cruise control when clearly we're being shown that is not the case. the chilling moment came for me yesterday when the speaker said, we need to finish the proceedings or else they will have complete victory. and i think that's just -- >> and pence agrees with them. the thing about january 6th is it did work. it did work. you know. and she says they defecated on it. they wanted to close it down and keep it closed. thanks to speaker pelosi and chuck schumer and mike pence, they cleaned it up and went back. but you're right. what is so haunting is the fact that it did work. we are going to sneak in a quick

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♪♪♪ there's no going back. we're back. explain what's happening there today and tonight. >> everybody has been watching this herschel walker story. and tonight is the night. the one debate in the senate race between rafael warner and herschel walker. warner has maybe a bit of an advantage that came out of the back of this herschel walker scandal. it is the one time you will see them on stage together. i feel warnock is a great speaker. even people who hate him think he's really good. herschel walker is a steel can, unable to spring sentences together.

the expectations are sky high for raphael warnock. we'll see what happens. it is hard to see herschel walker say something more stupid than he's said over the past nine months, but he has the capacity to surprise people. >> raphael warnock is running a smart campaign, including the read he has on the state and voters in georgia. what are you looking for? >> it is almost not fair for raphael warnock to have to be on this stage with this other candidate. and i don't speak from a place of partisanship but just reason. all i can say is -- >> reason, morality, dignity, hypocrisy. >> the concern is that the expectations are high for raphael warnock, so he has to bring his a game. what else can i say? not all black men are the same.

okay? >> on that note -- >> it just burns me up that we're covering this in this way. >> why? explain that to me. >> because it is clear to me -- it is not that he's a good speaker just because he's a preacher. he's a thoughtful guy. >> he's ran a very smart campaign. >> he actually has ideas. >> he's a very good senator. >> right. he actually has ideas. he's put stuff on the table. instead of us paying attention to the substance of what's being said -- i'm saying "we" generally here. >> the swallowness. i know what you're saying here. listen, i think that the story of his time as a u.s. senator has been his almost singular fight for voting rights. he was out there talking about it every single day and he did more behind the scenes than what he saw. he's a good senator for the state of georgia. >> i forgot. i should say this. my dad loves you and it is his

birthday. happy birthday, dad. >> happy birthday, dad. i love you all so much, and it's friday so thank you. thank you so much for that. i needed it. john, we don't have any more time, but will you come back on monday and tell us everything you saw and heard and learned there from watching that? >> sure. i'll have to fight back to make sure you're not calling me superficial or something. >> you're all good. >> i know you defended me. but eddy is calling me a theater critic or something. that's all right. that's all right. >> we got nothing but love for you, my friend. >> you know what, to make up for it, we will all plug "the circus." we will all be watching "the circus" on sunday. we're lnl at the halfway point, guys. what is next for the january 6th committee? we'll speak with barry burk. after a short break, we'll have more of that footage shot by alexander pelosi.

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the evidence is clear beyond any, in my mind, conceivable doubt that donald trump actively pursued a course, planned ahead a whole series of these steps which they went through in the hearing to overturn our democratic system. that happened. >> yeah. >> and if the system isn't up to responding to that, if the system isn't able to say, well, yes, we have this evidence. we know this happened. we know the president of the united states did this, but we're going to take a pass,

right, we can't take a pass. that's about as bad a thing. i would say it is the worst thing that anyone can do to our system of government. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. a very clear conclusion drawn following yesterday's remarkable hearing from the january 6th select committee. that was former deputy attorney general under george h.w. bush saying this country cannot take a pass this time around. donald trump must be held to account for his planning and incitement and desire to participate in a deadly insurrection. we saw one attempt at accountability yesterday when the select committee took the extraordinary step in voting unanimously to subpoena the twice impeached ex-president. this morning in full trumpian fashion he, i guess we'll call it a response, in a 14-page letter praising the insurrectionists and repeating his lies about election fraud. all those lies have been debunked in some instances by

trump-appointed judges. it was included in any of the 14 pages an answer as to whether or not he testified before the panel. last night on this network, committee member jamie raskin spoke about the committee's options on this front. >> we have ever reason to believe he will come forward the way that the vast majority that patriotic americans have come forward. if he doesn't, that creates a different set of problems and we don't have a lot of ways to act on it. there are civil ways of enforcing subpoenas. and then, also, we have the inherent powers of congress to enforce a subpoena. the supreme court has ruled repeatedly throughout our history that congress has the authority to enforce its own subpoenas as if we are a court ourselves. >> so whether the ex-president ultimately appeared before the 1/6 committee remains to be seen, but a wall street journal made this comment, quote, the january 6 committee probably

won't trump under oath, but the evidence of his bad behavior is now so convincing that political accountability hardly requires it. which brings us to the next avenue, the doj. as peter baker writes in "the new york times," quote, the committee amassed an overwhelming collection of interviews, documents and other evidence that may have lit a fire at the justice department a couple dozens blocks down from the capitol as they rafted up their investigation in recent months. the real verdict may be months away. if ag merrick garland pursuing a criminal investigation against trump or his allies t committee will set the stage by airing the case in pain staking detail. as they made their final arguments before next month's midterm elections, the panel members on thursday left little doubt what they think should happen but left any decisions until after the vote. the health of our government requires our system to respond to the man who attempted a coup against hit.

as lawrence tribe voted, ag garland no longer has any alternative except to indict trump. we begin the hour with a man very experienced in the ways of donald trump having served as counsel to the democrats during both of the impeachments, barry burk. you are the lead writer for all the seasons of some special, an iconic piece of something in our culture. except in this case it was for two impeachments of the same guy, donald trump. and they seemed to build three towers, irrefutable evidence from witness after witness after witness that donald trump knew he lost. some of the most stunning testimony they saved for last night, that collision almost literally with mark meadows and cassidy hutchen son where he's lost in the supreme court. he says we can't let anyone know we lost. he knows. he just doesn't want anyone to know and then a tower of evidence that everyone told him to his face of the conspiracy in

bill barr's words were b.s. and then the third tower of his knowledge of the violence and participating in it. if not for a criminal referral of donald trump, why do that? there are two reasons to do that. you are right to focus on that. that was the most critical part of the hearing presentation. you know, to the doj, which is obviously on everyone's mind, the hardest thing to prove is what's going on in a potential defendant's mind. will they claim they had an innocent reason for doing what they did. hear donald trump is trying to embrace it saying, i always believed the election was stolen. well, we now know that was false and we have the people closest to him who can say it. as we showed his last, his former campaign manager, close aid said he told him in july that my plan, before he knew anything, was that if i lose i'm going to claim i actually won and it was stolen. that is as damning intent as you can see. the evidence that showed what he did when the destruction was happening, when he saw the

violence, his own vice president under attack, the leaders of our house and senate facing potential death, he watched with glee. that is what prosecutors can show to a jury, and the jurors will care. so when you look at that, you are 100% right, that message is clearly going to the doj to show intent and it can be proven. but it is also to the american people. donald trump stood out at various valleys and made all sorts of defenses, all of which are not true. so they effectively went through step by step as you would in a closing argument which i know well as a trial lawyer by interspersing it with the defenses offered by donald trump and then the refuting of each of those defenses so powerfully. and then on top of all that, they put a human face on it. right? it's one thing to understand that donald trump unleashed this. it is another to see the impact it had on the people there. >> yeah. the officers who we all got to know because they feature

prominently in the very first public hearing before the summer series, the first hearing, was the officers who responded, officer dunn, officer phinone. i wonder what coupleability there will be for the republicans who knew at the moment because we have them on tape saying so, but who are whitewashing the violence and horror of the day to the point where the officers mostly describe being retraumatized by the denialism. >> i couldn't agree with you more. when i was there for the second impeachment, it was so unusual because the trial took place at the scene of the crime and you can see the officers so traumatized. we had a hearing room we couldn't use because it was being used as a counseling room for the officers. they were so traumatized by these attacks, by their failure to prevent it, by their lives being put at risk that it was so emotional every day walking through and seeing those officers who were obviously

supporting our efforts and the damage to the capitol. and the jurors included victims as well in terms of the leaders who were there under attack. all that was happening. nicole, what we have seen in the history of this country is when our nation is under greatest attack, whether it is external forces in world war ii or 9/11, both parties come through for the good of the nation. we saw that when both parties came together and said thrks is wrong. this is our democracy. it goes to the heart of our system of government, what makes us america. we have to stand up and oppose it. and many of them did. but then what we saw which is different than other times in our history is politics took over and people started to walk away from it. it is one of the reasons we felt it was so important in the second impeachment, to treat it like a criminal trial and show what happened because we knew there would be claims that they were just tourists. given what's going on in the political climate and the like, this is a time in the history of our nation where our greatest

principals at risk, everything that makes us a model to the rest of the world. but we have institutions that are strong. historically it could be the courts who have stepped in for richard nixon and said he had to turn over the tapes and we have the department of justice that can take some action because, as you know, i served as counsel to michigan in pennsylvania in addition to my roles of impeachment. i know elections are hard. if you are sending a message to people that you can do what donald trump either by getting elected on the platform of doing it or just as a campaign worker and trying to interfere with the election and trying to use the counting of the vote to get the candidate you want to win, then the things that we hold most dear, our free and fair democracies are at risk. the only way to prevent that is to say there will be consequences. that issue is being called today and the question is whether the department of justice will answer that in a way to protect

our nations and our freedoms. >> a member of the house january 6th committee. congresswoman, the committee has consistently exceeded expectations, and last night was no exception. the vote to subpoena donald trump, how long was it on the table? and was it always unanimous? >> well, we went through some discussions, and i think actually we were prepared to do that when the hearing was postponed because of the hurricane. so we have reached consensus. and it took a while, but when you put all the pieces together, as i think we have done now, there was one person at the center of this activity, the former president, who had a plan prior to the election to not accept the results of the election, who tried multiple ways to overturn the election, including finally calling an

armed mob and sending them to the capitol to overthrow and overturn the election. and we need to hear from the president, former president. he owes it to the american people to come in and explain himself. >> congresswoman, are there conditions that you would accept? i mean, he's a blow hard and a show horse, and if you wanted to -- i mean, are there conditions that you sort of compromise with him on? >> we haven't got into that. first we need an indication that he's willing to come in and talk to us. and then we'll get into the details. >> would you hold him to the laws that apply to everybody else? i mean, would lying to congress be something you take seriously? because he wanted to testify

before mueller's investigators and rudy giuliani said he would lay his body over railroad tracks before he would let trump testify. >> yes. it's a crime. it is a crime to lie to congress no matter who you are, former president or anyone else. it's a crime. >> will you refer the secret agents that you made clear that lied to you for lying to congress? >> well, we are going to re-interview those agents as i think the committee said there are discrepancies between their testimony and the documentary evidence that we have now had a chance to review. and by the way, it took a very big effort on the committee's part to finally push the secret service to get us that information. and then they just dumped over a million documents on us. and it -- the question was, could we go through it all. and with an extraordinary

effort, we did. and, so, we've got some re-questioning to do. >> does the e-mail -- i don't know what the right word is, but does it replace or does it supplement what you had hoped to learn from the texts that were deleted? >> well, i hadn't known we were going to do this, but we did. the secret service was told not only by congressional committees but by the department of justice to retain all their records, and 11 days later they erased them all. so the question is what was in them that would cause that behind of behavior? i'm not sure we will ever find out. but certainly we found out some important pieces of information from the team's messages and the e-mails and the radio traffic and the like. we have more information we want to get from testimony. i guess that's all i can say on that.

but i do think there is some serious problems in the secret service. i say that, i want to make sure that, you know, we recognize and appreciate individual officers who acted bravely, and we don't want to disparage them, but there is a problem in the agency in my judgment. >> congressman raskin said last night even as he arrives at this point, i know it is the end of the committee's point, but to this point, the scariest words he's heard is pence's words, i will not get in that car. i wonder if the committee has developed evidence that we haven't seen yet that shows that pence shares your concerns about the agency itself. >> well, i wouldn't want to speculate on that. i mean, certainly the vice president did not want to get into the car. i think clearly there were plans on the part of the agency to

remove him from the capitol. and there are benign reasons for that. i mean, there was a violent mob about to surround it. but really the decision on whether to leave or not leave was quickly made was pretty soon there was no way to actually evacuate him because the mob surrounded the entire capitol. that's not the most serious concern that i have about the secret service behavior, the hiding of information from the committee, the discrepancies in testimony, the fact that they were aware well in advance of january 6th about the potential for violence and what was done about that, the fact that the -- well, i'll just leave it at that. there are a lot of questions. >> the evidence that was presented ostensibly gleaned

from the mountain of e-mails that the committee received made abundantly clear that they were aware with pretty granular specificity with one of their two protectees, mike pence. a lot of work went into explaining to the public what an otr movement is and how that's different from a scheduled movement. the committee revealed that otr of moving trump to the capitol, the plug wasn't pulled until 1:55. does the committee understand whether that was to protect trump or pence? >> trump intended to go to the capitol. the secret service actually went so far as to assign agents and to try and clear a route to the capitol. they kept the motorcade right outside the west wing waiting for him to go with instructions. so this is about what the

president, then president, intended to do. one of the questions i have for him is what did he plan to do when he got to the capitol? did he plan to march in to the chambers? you know, what was that plan? i have some interest about that. but clearly, this was not to protect the vice president. it was the president's plan to join the mob at the capitol. do you have questions about who or whether there is a cover-up, whether they went into under the instruction to lie to the committee? >> let me just say i have a lot of questions about all of it, about coordination among witnesses, about the advice that they may have been receiving, from some attorneys about their veracity. you know, i just think there is

more questions than answers at this point. >> congresswoman liz cheney sharply made the point that the committee has developed ample evidence for multiple criminal referrals for multiple people. is that a list that you view as fluid and dynamic? could people get themselves off the list if they come up and clean up their testimony? and could people be added to that list as you develop more evidence? >> well, here's the process we're going to use. the chairman has appointed a committee, a subcommittee, and it's all the lawyers on the committee, and i'm one of them. and we will go through with our staff all of the evidence and take a look at the various criminal law aspects and make some assessments that we will then discuss with the other members of the committee. and there is really nothing more i can say other than we hope to do that promptly and the staff is working hard to assemble all the information.

>> can you say that there will definitely be some, at least one criminal referral sent over to the doj? >> well, we haven't had a vote or made a decision on that. but obviously we're taking steps to evaluate it for a reason. so hopefully we will have some sound decision-making process completed in the near future and we will make that public. >> is it a fair read to say that the committee used its potential final hearing last night to pile exhibit after exhibit on top of one another to prove donald trump's knowledge that he lost, the same thing for his knowledge that the conspiracy theories were all bogus and did the same thing to acknowledge the violence with potentially a well worn and highly successful wart of a plan to make clear that the evidence does exist of his intent to commit crimes? >> well, the determination of whether to charge a crime is not

the committee's. that's the department of justice. but i think we made a very clear case that he never intended to live up to the election results. he always intended to seize power. he had multiple methods that he utilized to try and seize power, despite the fact that he lost the election and he knew he lost the election and that culminated in unleashing an armed mob to the capitol to prevent the count from occurring. so that's the question. >> the committee also put into the public record a copious amount of evidence that donald trump never intended to concede and that he seemingly always knew he would lose. i covered his campaign in '16. he never contemplated winning. there was no victory speech. four years later, it was the complete inverse. he didn't think he would lose and he never contemplated

conceding. how will you share with the public premeditation and collaboration with men like tom fitten? >> fitten sent the language over for claiming that he won on october 31st, before the election was even held. and actually suggested that he, the president, also insists that the voting be stopped before all the votes were counted. essentially that's what trump did on election night. and fitten said that he spoke with the president about that plan on election day. so these arguments that the president really thought it was stolen, that doesn't hold water when you take a look at those facts. >> congresswoman, it's been a long week for you and for the committee. thank you so much for being so generous with us and with your time today. we're grateful. >> thank you. >> all right. we have to sneak in a quick break, but we have so much more

we want to ask you about. we have more of that video of speaker pelosi and democratic leaders taking charge on january 6th. we will talk about the pile-up of legal dangers not just from the january 6th committee into the insurrection. and the stunning verdict from yesterday. life in prison for the parkland shooter. our friend says yesterday's verdict will only make the next school shooting more likely. we get a chance to talk to fred. "deadline white house" continues after this quick break. don't go anywhere. go anywhere. v. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums ♪ when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,...

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this happens a lot these days, but while we have been talking about january 6th and the congressional and doj investigations into that, news has broken on one of the other deadly serious investigations into ex-president donald trump. "the new york times" just reported that justice department asked an appeals court to end the special plaster review of the thousands of documents seized by the fbi in its august search at mar-a-lago, arguing the judge was wrong to intervene in its investigation into donald trump's hording of sensitive government records, including national defense information. i want to get you -- since we have, you know, and there is so much to talk about, i do want to get to mar-a-lago. let me start with the capitol. there is no justification for not impeaching donald trump. but what they hit behind in the first was a perceived lack of

firsthand witnesses. all of the evidence put into the record by the january 6th committee comes from firsthand witnesses, people that sat in the room with donald trump, people who were screamed at by donald trump. what is the impact of that in terms of a ripple that? >> in the january 6th impeachment, evidence of donald trump's unique role not only on january 6th but leading up to his claims that the results were stolen. they relied on the technicality that you can't quit and then impeach a former president. but they agreed we proved the case. we did that without the power of subpoenaing the firsthand witnesses because we didn't have a department of justice under

trump who would support those. now in addition to all the evidence we presented that the republicans found persuasive, including mitch mcconnell, they have the witnesses, his closest aids t republicans that worked for him that present the damning case that it is as bad as it could be. his own personal interest over the safety of his vice president and democracy. i think that's a great question. the republicans want to avoid talking about it. it's not impeachment, but i think with democracy on the ballot, there is a real call. can people wake up and realize that both parties should be called to come together and protect our free and fair elections and recognize that what went on here, whatever your

politics, was as bad as this country has ever seen in terms of assault directed by the leader of our country against another branch of government in order to use his power to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. that's it? when you strip away everything else, it is hard to see how right thinking people could disagree about how bad that was. >> i want to play more of the tapes for you that the white house obtained. this is some footage film by speaker pelosi's daughter, an accomplished film maker alexander pelosi. this is number five. let's watch this. this is speaker pelosi. >> make plans and we sent out -- why don't you just put people in vehicles logistically to get there. there is leadership of the national guard at the capitol with the capitol police leadership, but they have not been given authority to be activated. so that -- you know, in other

words, that leadership can be taking place simultaneous to people influx. >> mr. secretary, i just spoke to vice president pence and he was going to see because mitch wants to do it in the cabinet, but we're being told it could take days to clean it up and make sure there are no hidden bombs. >> what do you think when you see this? >> one, personally, i saw speaker pelosi's leadership. i also -- when i was there for the impeachment, i was working with her staff, with the same people hiding under their desk as the mob, the insurrectionists were trying to break down her door and would get to them. and they all were so brave in getting together to come do this. it really has an impact on me. secondly, though, i see it as a trial lawyer. there has been attempt to sanitize what happened on january 6th. today donald trump called them

brave. just like he sent his text message the night of. and hopefully the american people get a sense of how real this was, that these are their elected officials of both parties to, you know, our branches of government who are at risk including the vice president. and they felt it. when you look at her leadership talking to the attorney general saying tell the president to call this and saying to mike pence, be safe. don't let anyone know where you are, you feel this is one of the greatest attacks on our nation and we have to respond accordingly. i'm hopeful it will wake up people to see how real it was and we can't let history forget it so it can't help again at the capitol or the michigan capitol or pennsylvania or any other state where people may try to do the same thing. >> when you look at the footage, it's clear that republicans were in the room. mitch mcconnell is in the room,

steve scalise in the room. do you feel angry that they were all in the room? no one shouts out and corrects anything nancy pelosi says but they did not all vote for the case that you made for conviction. >> i know during that day there is a lot of evidence that they did speak out. they did try to get the president to act. many of them did and he ignored it. i sat for 99% of the impeachment hearing. i was looking right at mitch mcconnell. i saw so many of the senators. it was clear how affected they were. they knew the truth. they knew that donald trump was responsible for this attack on our democracy and the attack on the capitol and they wanted to vote with us. >> why didn't they? >> you know why they didn't? because they didn't have the courage. they didn't have the courage of their convictions. i do believe for many of them if they thought they had 17 republican votes they would have done it. but they were afraid of power. >> they would have been rid of him. he would be gone. >> 100%. and i have to tell you when i saw mitch mcconnell's remarks

afterwards because we were back in the room we had off the senate with all the managers and the folks that worked on it, the lawyers, and we saw his remarks. he said what i saw, he said this is what i know. but to show the cowardness and violate his oath and one he wasn't allowed to consider, for him to have done that i think on the one hand gave him protection, so maybe history would say he was on the right side but without protecting our nation. all those people who were in there who you could see how they were affected and they knew and they didn't vote, i would say that was true political cowardness. it is not too late. just like so many people in the trump administration from attorney general barr who helped to promote some of the false claims about mail-in ballots but then stood up and good for him for doing it, even though it was at the very end, it doesn't vindicate his prior sins but good for him for doing it. these republican leaders that

didn't do the right thing on impeachment, who knew what the right thing was can take action now to take steps to make sure they're publically out there and condemning the actions of donald trump and saying we support the department of justice doing an independent review and bringing criminal charges if that's where the facts and the law lead them. >> thank you so much for being here today of all days. thank you very much. don't be a stranger to us. when we come back, for the families that suffered the unthinkable, unimaginable at marjory stoneman douglas high school, it is a verdict that not only does not represent justice to them but as our dear friend says will make the next mass school shooting even more likely. fred will be our next guest of a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. get fast relief with tums. it's time to love food back. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums ♪ ♪ what will you do?

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some of you know me. i'm not often stunned, but i am stunned by this verdict today. and i think anyone planning a shooting right now sees that there is a path to avoid the death penalty where it does exist. and the death penalty does exist, by the way. i would have gone to that courtroom every day the rest of my life to get the right justice. so no, he did what he did. the only possibility for relief ended for him five years ago almost when he shot and killed my daughter. i was prepared for the rest of

my life to seek justice. and i could not be more disappointed in what happened today. >> that was our dear friend and a familiar face to all of you fred guttenberg reacting after a jury recommended that the defendant in the 2018 marjory stoneman douglas massacre get life without parole leaving many shocks over the decision not to apply the death penalty in the case, which was available. the verdict means that the jury could not unanimously agree that the gunman should be executed for killing at least one victim. joining me now is fred. his daughter jaime was killed in the parkland school shooting. i saw your reaction. i saw your tweets. but i needed to see you here. how are you? >> nicole, first i'm glad to see you again. it's been a few months.

as you know i paused all interviews and most of my public stuff because of the trial. it was brutal. and to sit through the trial, to learn so many of the details that i didn't even know but how bad this person was, about what he intended, about what happened to my daughter and 16 others was not -- it was tough. and i know -- you know, i went public with something last night because i did have a health issue during the trial because when you sit there in that courtroom you have to behave. you can't scream. you can't shriek and be emotional the way you want because you don't want to cause any juror reaction that might cause the defense to call for a mistrial.

so the families, my wife and i, we were -- we sat as stoically as we could without saying a thing for 40 months. and during the week of the medical examiner exhibits, i started having palpitations sitting there, shortness of breath. i didn't get up while it was happening because i didn't want to have any juror reaction. but i ended up visiting a cardiologist and fortunately, nicole, my heart is strong and it's fine. it was just the stress and holding it all in. it had a negative effect. but i'm okay, and i'm ready to keep fighting because we can't have this happening in this county continuously. >> fred, how did you sit there? for almost five years, i have thought about this trial every

day. and prepared myself for sitting there every day. and i really thought i was better prepared than i guess i was. there were days where it just wasn't easy, where we would literally, as soon as the judge would call a break, the other families and i and my wife we would walk out of that courtroom and we would vent, get emotional and let it out. but i guess the answer to your question is probably the same one i have always given you, because of jaime. it was my desire to hold her killer accountable, that nothing else would have been appropriate other than whatever was necessary in that courtroom. it's always because of jaime. and i was really -- i was prepared for any result

yesterday, i thought, until i heard the result. and when i heard it, i was devastated. >> you always make me cry. i keep thinking some day you will not. what is the next -- i mean, because i think the result isn't what you endured, some of the painful days, to see happen. how do you handle that? how do you take a step back and then get back in the fight? >> so i think that started today. you know, nicole, last night was the first night in 40 months where i actually slept through the night. every day i just would wake up and not be able to fall back asleep thinking about the next day at the trial, how i would get through it, the question you just asked. and with just kind of angst over, you know, whether or not it would be really emotional or make me really angry. and i slept through the night

last night. and i woke up this morning and i said i unfortunately have to come to peace with the decision and closing the chapter. there is one more day left. we still have the sentencing hearing. i can't change this result as much as i wish i could. but what i can do is everything possible to hopefully stop the next one, stop the next family from needing to sit through a child murder trial. and that's how i go forward. not thinking about the murderer anymore, but thinking about how to reduce gun violence, which i have been doing the past few years. >> what is the next -- what does that fight look like? i mean, i feel like i look at my phone, every time i look at it, there is an alert about a mass shooting. last night we were on the air covering -- we were doing a

recap and there was a heinous shooting in north carolina. the night before i put my phone down for a couple hours, a hideous shooting in bristol, connecticut. >> here's what it looks like to me. we can live in a country where we agree there is a second amendment and there is rights for gun owners and everything that goes with that. and i'm not arguing that. we also need to be able to agree. there are people who shouldn't have guns. and we have to do everything to make it harder to ensure those people don't get guns. so how do we do that? you know, listen, i put out a message on twitter earlier because since yesterday everything is saying what can i do? how can i do more? the answer is you better vote. get out in november. do not sit home. don't say the election doesn't matter to me because in fact because of the last two

elections, we did pass some gun safety legislation, and we can do more. don't sit home for so many reasons, and i have watched your coverage the past few months also on what's happening in washington, d.c. and the fight to protect democracy, it all goes hand in hand. these people want to use gun violence to attack us and our democracy. so the most important thing people can do, if anybody wants to know what they can do for me, vote. vote for a gun safety candidate. don't care what state you're in. don't care what congressional district you're in. figure out who the gun safety candidate is and vote for them. >> fred, we covered at the beginning of the week the trial over alex jones, a defamation of the sanity hook families. >> yeah. >> a horrific human, we can call him that. horrific crimes, a right wing

commentator. what are your thoughts about the families who endured the same kind of unimaginable loss that you have in losing your jaime and also endured the abuse and the harassment and the horrific treatment from alex jones and his followers? >> listen, i know those families, and i have nothing but love for those families. and i know the pain of the fight that they have had to go through for the past few years. and, so, i can't say i'm happy for the result this week because of the torture and pain that they have been put through, but i'm glad they got the result that they did this week and alex jones can rot in hell, okay? and what's amazing is he doesn't stop. even after the trial result this week. >> yeah. >> he then put, in essence said

he's not done. he's still going to go after the uvalde and parkland families, he said. so i have nothing but love for those families. i hope they get every penny that alex jones has hidden in every crack and crevice. and i know them and i know they will keep fighting for it. >> fred, it is always a pleasure to see you. i think we all followed this the way you followed it. you led us through this week. thank you for always sharing this with us and your pain with us. thank you so much. >> thanks, nicole. >> when we come back, the disgraced ex-president is playing a central role in another criminal case, the seditious conspiracy trial against the far right oath keepers. an update on a busy and consequential week in that trial after a quick break. don't go anywhere. quick break. don't go anywhere.

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the spotline on stuart rhodes and his codefenders. let's bring in my friend and colleague who has been covering this all week, ryan reilly. ryan, take us through what has sort of been established, what's happened this week and where this is heading. >> yeah, i think one thing that's been of interest in terms of the fbi testifying is a lot of them have stories. there was one who testified as a special agent, was in virginia at the time and sort of had to rush in to the capitol and clear the grounds of the capitol after the attack. what we've gotten from this week is just about that quick reaction force that was outside of d.c. and virginia. we had an oath keeper who

testified, who actually dropped off his own weapon at that facility and went to the grounds of the capitol and said it was the most weapons he had seen since his days in the military. there were just a lot of weapons there. at the same time, that oath keeper, at least, apparently wasn't in the loop about this broader plan. or at least claimed on the stand that he wasn't in the loop. he was saying he hadn't heard anything about any plan to storm the capitol. essentially he thought this was only going to be brought up if there was some sort of emergency situation that was when they would need them. prosecutors have laid out a lot of evidence and messages that we've seen, especially from stuart rhodes and another defendant, thomas caldwell about their plans for january 6. there's discussion from thomas caldwell about surrounding the building, scaring everyone inside, and raising a flag in fact at the u.s. capitol of the oath keepers on january 6th. so there's a trove of

information here. at the same time there are pockets of information that we don't really know because a lot of these communications did happen over encrypted apps. we have a good chunk of that information. but some of those messages aren't recoverable. the reason we have a lot of messages from this individual, one of this individual is because he sent a lot of facebook. where the government could go and get those messages easily. there are pockets where you don't fully have the spectrum because they took precautions and because stuart rhodes was so careful with his words, nicolle. >> it features prominently that he thought he was there at the behest of donald j. trump. ryan, thank you so much. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quicks we'll be right back. better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. which during these extraordinary times, we are so grateful. ari, happy friday. >> i feel like this is what we've been doing. >> it was a pleasure to share a shift with you last night. >> a shift? yes. >> shift work. >> i hope you have a great weekend, nicolle. >> thank you, my friend. good evening, i am ari melber. there is more footage from inside the insurrection. speaker pelosi is someone who has experience with many different aspects of government