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ayman. substance versus sick uppity, and week of debates, democrats brought solutions, but republicans on the other hand, fake police badges. plus trump's legal problems go well beyond january the six. new details on the doj's latest moves and what is happening with the new york attorney general's investigation. and cultural collection at an american museum. -- stolen during the 19th century. my conversation with one of the women that led the efforts to get the statues home. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. >> all hands on deck, that is the call democrats are sending out just three weeks until the

midterms. new today, president obama is answering that call, announcing plans to campaign for democrats in three key battleground states at the end of the month. georgia, michigan and wisconsin, all three have critical races up and down the belt and all three coincidently had some of the most consequential debates of the election cycle this week, including last night's senate debate in georgia between herschel walker and incumbent raphael warnock. yes, it was weird to say the least, and it also reinforced what we have known throughout the 2022 cycle. democrats are bringing ideas, and republicans, they're bringing nonsense. either a total lack of policies are totally incoherent and flatly stupid policies. like when the scandal prone herschel marker amid this argument to georgians, who are worried about the cost of insulin. >> i believe in reducing

insulin, but at the same time, you have to eat right. because he may not know, and i know many people on insulin, that if you eat right, you don't get it. >> well, okay, let's see, does herschel walker know that there is a type of diabetes that is not linked to eating habits? anyway, look, the bar was so low for him last night that just showing up and speaking however inquiry in was actually seen as a win by republicans. yeah, they actually thought that he did amazing. that's the surprise at this point, as we have said last week, most republicans are ready to support herschel walker no matter how much she misses up. but the most memorable moment at the net for walker was not a conversation about policies. no, it was not even about a touching story about his public service. it was a stunt. it was this move, pulling out a novelty police badge.

a response to senator warnock rightly putting out that herschel walker's representative and self as a law enforcement officer multiple times over multiple years. and instead of addressing those claims with any substance, he chose to look like a 16-year-old using a fake i.d. to try and buy one course. in the bits across the country this week from georgia to ohio, michigan and wisconsin, democrats came prepared to talk policy and what they have done for the american people under this administration, and what they hope to do in the future. things like protect abortion access, strengthen gun restrictions, lower health care costs. meanwhile, republicans engaged in bad performance art. >> j d vance raised money for the legal defense fund of the insurrectionists. this is the kind of extremism, j.d., that we only reject. can you imagine one guy sitting out of one side of his mouth that he's broke up, and then on the other side, he is raising

money for the expressionists, who are beating up the capitol police? the one guy who tried to raise money got for years in prison. >> the same month as the oxford school shooting where four children were murdered, eight were injured, and the community was terrorized. tutor dixon, posted on her social media, a picture of her gun, with the caption that set, gun control means using both hands. she is too dangerous and out of touch to be interested with protecting our kids. she'll put the second amendment before second graders every time, we can't let that happen. >> would you find admirable about your opponent? >> i do think that the senator has proven to be a family man. i think that is ever more. >> likewise, i appreciate the fact that governor barnes said loving parents, a schoolteacher, a father who worked through shifts, so a good upbringing. i guess what puzzles me about that is with the upbringing, why has he turned against

america? why does he define america awful? >> we set something admirable. >> what a disgraceful stunt from republican ron johnson, but you know what, you've got to give him credit. at least he showed up. marco rubio has refused to debate val demings in the florida senate race. adam laxalt is too afraid to debate about senator kaplan cortez masto, for the middle part of the small democratic process we have in the country, is hearing political candidates debate these issues before voters cast their ballots. republicans running scared from that are doing a disservice to their constituents, but the republicans who showed up to the bag, honestly, they're not much better. voters did not hear them discuss the issues, they just watched a bunch of smoke and mirrors and cheap gop tricks and a pathetic event to distract from the lack of substance and so. joining me now is my saturday

panel. dina vallow is the host of the dean of a delicious on sirius xm -- singleton is a political consultant and contributor to the boston globe and host of screen share on peacock. gentlemen, it's good to have both of you with us. you know, i'll get your reaction. we'll start with warnock walker, what can only be described as a circus last night. what did you make of it? >> first of all, on one hand, ayman, herschel walker is the father of his own voting bloc. this could be welcomed in the long run. i watched a lot of debate, to be honest, he memorized a lot of things. sometimes, he got a right, sometimes you get it wrong. clearly, the fake account was off the charge because the atlantic general constitution has fact-checked numerous times. he has said, herschel walker that he was a member of the fbi, not just the police. none of that is true, and he doubles and triples down on it. the question is, is it like

trump, who doubled or tripled on? or is it worse, is walker not understand that he was never a police officer? does he understand that he was not actually in the fbi? i don't know with him. i really can tell. is it a trump thing to double down on your lies, or is he really that detached from reality? that's for the voters to decide. >> that's the dangers front. because if he does not know he is lying, how can you put somebody like that in office? sure michael, what do you make of republican expectations with walker, arguing that he effectively won the debate by just showing up and speaking in english? that's literally what they think is the only reason that he won. >> i mean ayman, look, he had a low bar. i talk to -- presidential campaigns who were involved in politics statewide. i know the state very well. most of them said to me that they hoped he did not screw up in a way that could potentially turn off some hesitant republican voters and --

suburban areas outside the city but typically vote somewhat red to abandon the candidate. they believe are the most part that he accomplished. i did think that raphael warnock did a good job. raphael warnock is a pastor member of the baptist church, a church that more in the king led. his father also lead. it's no surprise to me that he articulated his positions fairly well, but i think as it pertains to walker, most republicans did not want him to screw up too much. from the messages that i received, they believe that he accomplished knuckle. >> dean it begs the question whether it's raphael warnock talking about abortion access, while herschel walker last is fake police badge or mandela barnes talking about health care, while ron johnson pushed fbi conspiracy theories that he was friend. why does it seem like democrats and republicans are on two different planets?

democrats and republicans are playing two different games at these debates. democrats want to talk about issues and substance, and republicans are flashing fake police badges and making allegations that the fbi from them? >> this is nothing new. this has gone on for decades. democrats want to talk about policy. we tell you with a power point presentation how will help your life. republicans are like, brown people coming over the border, or banning muslims -- it's the way of talking about race, as well. everything goes to the heart and visceral. we try to go to the head. i think the difference with donald trump that was unique, democrats had a -- now with trump off the bout, you see the struggle with democratic messaging. i would say that overturning roe v. wade gave them a message, it gave them one that is very real. it's telling women and men, as well, a loss of freedom. that is what i am hoping. but democrats do have a lot of

policy. republicans want -- ron johnson, one of the worst. he is undermined covid, the vaccine, he wants to overturn social security. he said on january six, he was not afraid of trump supporters, but black lives matter. walker might not get reality, ron johnson is susie -- he is a big hit, and wisconsin, you can do much better than ron johnson. >> shermichael, there is an elephant in the room, and perhaps, the elephant is not in the room. what's up with republicans who don't even bother showing up for these debates? i'm thinking here of marco rubio, a seasoned politician, who you would think at this stage in his career would be comparable enough in debating anybody. i guess, maybe he's the traumatized about what donald trump did to him on the debate stage in front of all america, that he never was to step on another debate stage again. >> ayman, [laughs]

i think from rubio's perspective, i think he appears to be in the league for the most part, so they're thinking to themselves, why debate when we're likely going to win this thing. i like val demings, i have political differences, but about then mings reminds me of my grandmother, in many ways, and how she -- i have a lot of respect for her. i think florida just like georgia would stacey abrams and texas would beto or, i think some of these candidates, ayman, to be quite honest with you, are a little too early. i don't think things are quite where they need to be for a candidate, for any of those candidates to actually win a successful statewide campaign. it is not mean that the states are not anywhere, because i believe they are. -- you're looking at the rubio camp, and they look into saying, we're ahead by five or six points. why do we need to debate? why do we potentially put the senator in jeopardy or risk of having a bad moment, which could jeopardize a potential win and swing voters? let's just say we will not debate because we are comparable in our current standing. >> okay, let me push back to

that. there is a part of you as a person who serves in this country that says i want to do the right thing by our democracy, and if by our democracy means i field questions from journalists or moderators, and i debate my idea in a civil manner, we're all better. of not just pushing out campaign acts, speaking to students, choosing the reporters who speak to, and then avoiding any kind of meaningful debate about the topics. so, that's why i think marco rubio should debate it, even if he's up. >> look, i agree on it and 50%, ayman, i've worked on a ton of campaigns, and the debating process was a crucial part of it, which would connect not only with our own voters, who would likely vote for you, but also to speak to voters who may be skeptical, even some folks who may not vote for you at all. but i think what we've seen over the past couple of years with trump and the trump era, the republican party, at least many republicans, i don't want to say all, at least many don't feel the need, ayman to have that type of dialogue in the public discourse, and the way that we used to, ten, 15, 20

years ago. >> exactly. >> and i say one quick thing? >> go for it, quake. >> forget they debate. over 60% of the republican nominees in battleground states are election deniers. there are democracy deniers. they don't even believe in the system, debating, for getting. if they don't win, it's rigged. very dangerous. >> you're absolutely right. guys, stick around. we've got a lot more to discuss. up next, the biden administration finally evaluating its relationship with saudi arabia. but first, richard louis is here with the headlines. hey, richard. >> hey, ayman, good evening to you. breaking news, the u.s. state department sank is closely monitoring a large fire at iran 's evan prison. it's known for housing political prisoners and anti government activists. flames and smoke where billowing into the air. gunfire alarms also reported on a lot of state media. the state department says it's priority right now is the safety of u.s. citizens wrongfully detained in iran. the blaze was reportedly contained, but it's unclear what caused it. and president biden spent a

second straight day, saturday, campaigning in portland, oregon. biden spoke about lowering costs for american families, before attending an event for the states democratic gubernatorial nominee, tina kotek. kotek is in a tight three way race, heading into the midterm election. we've got more ayman with ayman mohyeldin, right after this break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. contestants ready? go! only pay for what you need. jingle: liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. (vo the new iphone 14 pro is here. and right now business owners can get it on us at t-mobile. apple business essentials with apple care+ is included so you can easily manage your team's devices, here, and here. all on the network with more 5g coverage. it's the ultimate business trifecta, with the new iphone 14 pro on us.

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highs this summer, before mercilessly starting to go down in august. but during the summer months, when prices were at their worst, we heard a common refrain from the biden administration. we need the help of saudi arabia to lower those prices. that was, in large part, it seems, like president biden made increasingly differential moves to the oil-rich nation, including a controversial, excuse me, visit to saudi arabia, to meet with crown prince, mohammed bin salman, in july, and fist bumping him. biden chose to meet with mbs, as he is commonly known, despite the nation's alleged human rights abuses in yemen, and despite their severe restrictions on women's rights, and it despite biden's own declaration that he would make saudi arabia a, quote, mariah, over the killing of journalist jamal khashoggi. but we were told it would be worth the concessions, because it would relieve our pain at the pump. and maybe for a couple of months, the biden administration thought that it had made the right decision. but then, the other shoe

dropped. this month, saudi arabia, an effect, colluded with russia, deciding to cut 2 million barrels a day of the opec+ meeting, plus raising the price of gas, georgia's advantage. and the shocking move towards them global inflation undermining u.s. efforts to bring down the price of gas. and it would help fuel putin's unprovoked invasion of ukraine. now, the thing is, it might be a shocking move. but it's not surprising. and now the u.s. has lost twofold, gas prices will increase, and the u.s. has legitimized the nation it should be, as biden once said, it pariah. biden said, there will be consequences for the move. senate foreign relations share bob menendez argues that those consequences should include blocking any feature of arms sales to the saudis. my panel is back with me to discuss this, and more. dean, how problematic is this for the democrats, just before the midterms? >> well, we'll see if gas prices go up, but you had a good point, ayman, the democrats, this is just a show,

to a democratic audience. i talk about did saudi do this to the democrats before the midterms. they didn't do this to help the republicans, because they like donald trump. donald trump's first trip in 2017 as president was the saudi, where they touched, and danced with stories. and they love trump. trump doesn't care about human rights violations. so we have to wonder, is their motivation and what saudi is doing, and that's why there's this backlash, menendez, all this. we are seeing real world impact, i don't think anything changes, because we need the fuel. >> singleton shermichael, how predictable was it that the saudis, at least, i don't know if they would reverse course. but at least appear to signal one thing to the u.s., when president biden was there, when they were trying to get that american president to come and visit and meet the crown prince, and here we are a couple of months after. >> yeah, look, ayman, i think it was a complicity stunt by mbs. this is a guy who is erratic. let's think about the cost of the yemen war that he got his

country in. you mentioned jamal khashoggi, the washington post writer that he clearly put ahead on this gentleman's life. i'm not surprised that they backed with russia, but i have to tell you, charlie crist ayman, but i think even after president biden is, gone the president should not forget this. and i hope the republican administration do not forget this as well. i think they're betting on russia, which may lead to some short term victories and winds of some kind of weird way for saudi arabia. but in the long term, i think they are really jeopardizing their relationship that they're having with united states. now, it's been with russia, as the audience say, but it does allow them to continue to provide the resources to fuel this war in ukraine. but again, ayman, this is only temporary. what happens when this is over? what happens when two instruments are out of lines, you know what, saudi arabia, we're gonna take a step back. we don't to sell arms to you guys. we don't work to you with you guys on technology, and other areas that we worked on them for a couple of years now. i think it's gonna be detrimental, not only to the crown prince, but also to the people of saudi arabia. >> dean, i gotta ask you, you

and i talked about this a lot. what is something like this do to our standing in the world? we talk about human rights, and yet, we bend the rules, when it comes to human rights, because of our interests. and then, in some cases like this, it actually backfires against us. >> it doesn't help us, but you know, look at the big picture. who's the number one buyer of weapons from the united states of america? saudi arabia. we need to fully sell the weapons rolling back to them at the same time. president richard nixon, the opec embargo, in 73, have talked about reevaluating their relationship with saudi, and we are no longer dependent on fossil fuels, we're gonna be start compromising our values. so he is embrace the energy to deal with saudi, and any other country we don't like, just because we need fossil fuel. that's the biggest, biggest issue here. >> all right, dean obeidallah -- >> that is through, ayman. i gotta agree on that one. >> i gotta say, i agree with dean. we need to have a multi approach strategy, to the

energy going forward. renewables is clearly were a lot of manufacturers are looking, but we're gonna walk the walk, amen. we have a moral and ethical values. i don't care how many arms ourselves. we need to stand by those statements, so the rest of the world is living to our country to be the leader of freedom of democracy injustice. >> absolutely, agree with both of you, guys on that. dean obeidallah, shermichael singleton, that's through the both of you are joining us tonight. up next, more coverage of the january six communities latest hearings, and other legal dramas facing trump. ♪ ♪ ♪ me. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a pool party. ♪ good times. insurance! ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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confidence. that the government can function, and that we can elect the president of the united states. >> i have something to say, mister secretary. i'm gonna call the mayor of washington, d.c., right now, and see what other outreach he has, and the justice department, leader hoyer has mentioned that. >> governor, i don't know if you've been approached about the regina national guard, mr. hoyas was making a point of governor horgan, hogan. but i'm still thinking, probably, we need the okay off the federal government, in order to come in to another jurisdiction. >> oh my gosh. they are just breaking windows. they're doing all kinds of, i mean, it's really -- they said somebody was shot. it's just, it's just horrendous. and all at the instigation of the president of the united states. we're trying to figure out how we can get this job done today. we talked to much about it earlier. >> and i speak to you for a

moment? we're gonna go to the pentagon, or the white house, or some other entity, and we are under siege. and let us get people there safely, that's the plan. >> speaker pelosi took charge in that moment of crisis, which is in stark contrast to the republican conspiracy that she delayed national guard assistance, as the trump mob attacked the capital. now, in that video, you see republican with, steve scalise, clearly watching the speaker call for health. and that is interesting. because he is one of the republicans who has lied about pelosi's actions on that day. he's done it now for nearly two years. joining us now hour caroline and paul butler, both are former federal prosecutors, and both msnbc legal analysts. carol, i'll start with you. i want to play more of that never before seen footage, showing congressional leaders on january the 6th. here is a particularly tense moment between senator chuck

schumer, and then army secretary, ryan mccarthy. watch. >> d.c. has requested the national guard, and it's been denied by d.o.d.. i'd like to know a good god damn reason why it's been denied. why are you guys not sending them? please, get the whole people, the capital is rampaged. the picture of someone sitting in his chair in the senate, shots fired, we need full national guard component now. >> how does this footage help build a case against donald trump? good to be used to prove, for example, dereliction of duty? >> well, this is definitely helpful in terms of showing the reactions of people who were in the capitol at that moment. whether, you know, if there was a criminal trial, you would likely have these people testifying lies, but this actually shows what was happening at the moment. and for those who want to

pooh-pooh the seriousness of what was going on that day, this definitely helps. but again, these are conversations not with the former president, but with others. and so, again, the evidence is going to have to center around what the president, the former president knew at the time this was going on, and there's been plenty of evidence about that elsewhere in the hearings. >> ball, based on the point that carole just mentioned about the other evidence that have been brought up throughout the january 6th hearings, about what the president knew, what the president was doing what is the likelihood there will be criminal charges filed against donald trump? >> i think that after the evidence that the house panel has laid out, as a roadmap for the department of justice, there must be charges. ayman, trump knew he lost, and he just didn't care. he told mark meadows that that was embarrassing, one of course he was concerned of the fact that he lost the election. and it didn't mean that he should leave the white house.

and this whole conspiracy, conspiratorial, roger stone, before the election, was talking about violence, in the attempt that trump lost, and that's exactly what happened on january 6th, the former president was fully aware that armed militants were marching on the capitol, even after all of that destruction had begun, trump was literally fighting to do, benefit of the insurrectionists. this is impossible evidence from merrick garland to ignore. >> carol, let's talk about some of the other trump legal woes. friday, the justice department asked a federal appeals court to throw out that florida judges order appointing a special master in the mar-a-lago documents case. talk to me about the significance of this step, and if you think that doj has a shot at success here. >> so, i think with the doj, what they did initially was a smart thing to do. they appeal just a very narrow part of the district court judge, judge cannon's, order,

think that the fbi could not use the classified documents, in fact, could not even look at them, except for intelligence purposes, pending sort of review by the special master. that doj appealed just that portion, initially. they want, one in the 11th circuit, and then the supreme court said, we're not interested. donald trump, and looking at this any further. and they have upheld the 11th circuit. the doj has now gone ahead and said, okay, we won on that narrow issue. now, in the meantime, the judge has, neither has said no it's gonna take even longer for the special master to do its review, it's gonna take into december. and so, what we're gonna do now, we are going to appeal the whole thing. this whole special master review should be thrown out because this is now truly interfering in our investigation. and i do want to point out. this is not a trial. this is not a criminal trial. this is an investigation, and the investigators have to have control over the timing and the

substance of the investigation. they can't do it on the courts timeline, so that's where doj is saying now, we need to move ahead. >> ball, that appeal is just the latest bad news for team trump, i, mean as carl mentioned, this week it was dealt a blow with the supreme court rejecting an emergency request from his legal team to intervene in that classified documents dispute keeping those classified records out of the reach of the special master. how big of a blow is this to trump's defense? >> ayman, it is so big a blow that even trump's main man in the supreme court, justice clarence thomas, couldn't stand with him. the supreme cole court spoke very eloquently in just one sentence. trump wanted these 100 classified documents the fbi took from mar-a-lago to go back to the special master for him to review, for this bogus executive privilege claim. and the court just said, no.

so, now, the ball is back in the hands of the government circuit. we gotta know, ayman, trump keeps losing at the supreme court, just like he keeps losing at every other court. earlier this year, the court told trump he has a handful of records to the national archives. and the court has also told trump that he had to hand his tax records over to those investigators. so with things that just, these appointees to the court, there his justices. they're not acting like it. >> paul butler, carol lam, thanks to the both of you for joining us tonight. greatly appreciate it. coming up next, america finally writing a century old wrong. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ lling peoliberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! (limu squawks) he's a natural. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ (vo) with verizon, you can now get a private 5g network. so you can do more than connect your business, you can make it even smarter.

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art and artifacts. but this week, some american institutions took a step toward correcting that horrific trend. >> there is simply no moral or legal business for persistently retaining cultural property, which was looted during military expeditions, or in unequal negotiations, for that matter. >> that was the representative for the kingdom of benign, modern day nigeria, at the benin bronzes reparation ceremony hosted by the smithsonian national museum of african art. look, in 1897, british forces invaded the kingdom of benin in what is known as the punitive exposition. it's estimated that thousands of benin bronzes or stolen from nigeria and its deadly rate. the bronzes are centuries old, and represent that best examples of benin art in history. many of these pieces have been

displayed in western museum since that raid, but in a historic and long overdue moment, the smithsonian institution, along with the national gallery of art, and the road island school of design museum, return benin bronzes in their possession back to the people of nigeria this week, where they rightfully belong. it's important to put this moment in a larger context. the ceremony took place the same week as indigenous peoples day, formerly known as christopher columbus day. in recent years, finally, we have begun to have a conversation, an honest one, about the blight of christopher columbus discover america, and the deep damage the tee and other european explorers brought upon indigenous communities. sadly, the struggle for indigenous peoples's ongoing. and just last week, we learned of the racist and their grudge tory remarks allegedly made by former los angeles city council president, marie martinez, and conversation with other city council members and officials. in a leaked audio recording, we

appear to have martinez mock and degraded indigenous people of oaxaca, as well as black people, including the two year old black son of a fellow council member. martinez has since apologized and design resigned from her position. here is how these two seemingly disparate events are actually connected. if we don't apologize for, and try to correct our races since of the past, we're gonna keep making the same mistakes over and over. if we don't acknowledge our wrongs, we are going to continue to stereotype and mistreat marginalized communities. and part of that, part of that is also acknowledging that these groups continue to face adversity, as we saw in los angeles. it is a perfect, and certainly, aspirational. but the goal is, little by little, to become that more perfect union we often so profess to be. look, the harm we and other western ration nations committed against communities, marginalized communities around the world can never be fully

repaired. but if we hope to end the cycle of disrespect, we have to try. we have to try to write some locks. it's the only way we make progress. you don't get better by sweeping these issues under the rug, but you get better by taking responsibility, and taking action. after the break, my conversation with one of the people behind the return of the benin bronzes tonight, to nigeria, kaywin feldman, the director of the national gallery of art. rt nse burning sensation or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. born in 1847, formally enslaved, started buying land,

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michael's back. and he's more dangerous. he isn't dead. we finish this now. let's go. >> this week, the national gallery of art, along with the smithsonian national museum of african art, and the rhode island school of design using, returned benin bronzes to nigeria. he's my conversation with kaywin feldman, the director of the national gallery of art in washington, d.c.. >> kaywin feldman, thank you so much for joining us. talk to us a little bit about the historical significance of that return of these benin bronzes back to nigeria, after they were stolen over a century

ago by british forces. >> yes, in 1897, there was something that is known today as a punitive expedition of 1897, one of the british, who were seeking greater trade arrangement with the oba, the king of benin, went in and just destroyed the city, set it on fire. it was complete and utter human and physical destruction. and they had this great tradition benin of making objects that we've heard today, as the benin bronzes. they actually were made out of other kinds of materials, like brass. so, it is sort of a euphemism, been bronzes. and we estimate that the british stole somewhere between 3000 and 10,000 of these objects. and they brought them back to britain. and then, they make their way after that across europe, and

the united states, and just this week, we hosted, along with the smithsonian, a ceremony to return the benin bronze that was in the national galleries collection back to nigeria. and it's really a moment for america museums, because we have not yet acknowledged that the theft was really very recent, just 125 years ago. and that it was time to return these objects back to nigeria. >> yeah, and speaking of this week, in your statement, at the ceremony, you mentioned that, when you began working 35 years ago, the collecting philosophy among the museums around the world was do whatever it takes to get a great object or a great piece of art in history. what does this return of these sculptures back to their home country say about how the art world is evolving, and how much it still has to go?

>> yes, i am so proud to be a part of this profession now. i estimate it was about 15 years ago, that things really started to change in museums. and a whole new wave of collecting came about, where we really looked very carefully at the programs of objects, so the past ownership history. and in that process has really meant that were really much more careful today and thinking about objects, before they come in. and really, it's a radical change, and it involves also antiquity's objects that perhaps could have been looted from the ground, you scenes now take a really careful look. and so i'm proud that museums now are really careful about provenance >> this week, culture minister of nigeria has called on the british museum to also we turn artifacts that

belonged to nigeria. do you think we will see other museums follow your lead? what the national gallery of art did, and begin to return some of these significant pieces of antiquities and art? i mean, it is such an important debate. and i'm not sure whether or not the museums and the cultural world is moving as fast as what some would like. >> i agree, and i have commented several times that i think a lot of the movement to return the benin bronzes have come from university students and emerging professionals who are really demanding a different point of view from museums, a different standard. and i do think that we are at the start of seeing additional returns here in the united states, but i would stress that returns have already occurred in parts of europe. germany has announced a major

restitution of objects back to nigeria, and several institutions in the uk. museums are complicated creatures, and we all have different governance structures, and policies, procedures around acquisitions. so, i think we will see it in fits and starts across the world. but i'm excited to see this change moment. >> can i ask, specifically, about the national gallery in nigeria? you mentioned this week that this is just the beginning of a working relationship between the two, between the national gallery and nigeria. can you talk to us a little bit about your institution's commitment to repatriations going forward, what other aspects of cooperation do you seek with nigeria? >> absolutely. so, i'm so proud to be here at the national gallery where we have really been leaders in the field for the past 30 plus years, in terms of research on

provenance, and really, looking carefully at objects and collections. and we're often consulted by other institutions about the research process that we go through. so, we will continue to do that, both going forward with acquisitions, but also, looking back at the collection. we are a bit in an anomaly when it comes to the benin bronzes and restitution, because to our knowledge, the benin warrant is really the only historic work of africa we have in our collection. so, in my discussions with the national museums and monuments commission in nigeria, we have talked about sharing expertise and practice around museology, around conservation, education, and we recognize that we have as much to learn from them, as they have from us. so, we really see it as an exciting moment for our future

collaboration. >> can i ask you finally, really quickly, kaywin feldman, what do you say to critics who say returning these risks, their preservation, in the sense that museums, in parts of africa, who would want these bronzes return, other antiquities, may not be able to maintain them or preserve them, light countries in the west, or museums in the west too. >> well, my response is fact these objects, they were stolen from their original owners. and, you know, the beginning premise of do no harm, they were stolen. and so, they need to be returned to their original owners. and i have trust and confidence that their original owners will treat them with the respect that they deserve. >> all right kaywin feldman, thank you so much. i really appreciate that conversation. >> and thank you for making time for us this evening. come back tomorrow night, nine eastern, on msnbc. i'll be joined by adrienne fanta, the democratic nominee

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