of state saying that if he, went along with that the election deniers and this coalition of people that he is building, they will make sure that donald trump is president again in 2024. basically, subverting our democracy and trying to install him by rigging the election. i mean, they ought to be labeled by anti-democratic extremists. and to your point, and good on you for spending time on your show talking about this for four to, among the media in this country have treated politicians who hold and espouse the authoritarian or hateful ideas with kid gloves. they questioned these figures. and welcome them on the show, simply as politicians with policy differences or nearly controversial points of use. and i'm sorry, we are talking about the very existence of our democracy and our country. if you don't call them out for one day are, and crystallized for the american people what these individuals represent. i'm sorry matthew, but we are doomed. >> we are indeed, and i'm glad you and i are calling it out

tonight at least. >> and get on you for spending on time talking about that. enjoy the rest of your evening, and thank you for joining us at home. coming up on ayman dangers, -- now reporting that at people were sent to defend the extension -- and did not act on warnings of violence before that day. plus, election deniers want to watch you view vote. i'll be joined by arizona secretary democratic head of state nominee to get his reaction. and to me too, five years later. an important conversation with the women who helped launch a global movement. activist charade up furch joins me live in the studio. i'm ayman -- let's get started. this week, we learned that the people we trust to keep our nations safe failed on gender

the sixth. it seems that some of them wanted to fail. thanks to emails newly-made public through the freedom of information act, we now know that a week after the capitol attack, a senior fbi official was warned that a, quote, sizeable percent of the employee population, quote, felt sympathetic to the group that stormed the capitol. the informant, whose identity was not disclosed as the fbi colleagues believed the ride was quote no different than the black lives matter protests of 2020. numbers of our national security apparatus apparently harbored, and maybe still harbor sympathies for violent criminals who tried to stage a coup against our government. apparently, those sympathies might spread beyond the fbi. just this week, we learned from the general six committee that members of the secret service, quote, actively enabled the efforts of insurrectionists. here is one manifestation of that, described by congressman adam schiff. >> the secret service and other agencies knew of the prospect

of violence well in advance of the presidents speech at the ellipse, but despite this, certain white house and secret service witnesses previously testified that they received no intelligence about violence that could potentially threaten some protectees on january 6th, including the vice president. >> evidence strongly suggests that this testimony is not credible. >> as the committee made clear in its hearings, the secret service had credible knowledge of violence, ten days after the capitol attack. including threats of occupying federal buildings, invading congressional offices, and bringing firearms to washington. all in order to engage in political violence. there is no public indication that the secret service took steps to prepare for these threats, or to counteract them. that's why we need answers. we demand answers. the biden administration should be demanding answers. as msnbc contributor and assistant director for counter intelligence frank for glue z asks, does our nation's law

enforcement and intelligence agencies fumble the ball that day? or was there failure to prevent violence, warning for an international grounding. intentional grounding, excuse me. was there institutional sympathy for the rioters cause? where their orders from higher higher ups to downplay the available intelligence.

right now, we just don't know. how wild is that? we have no idea whether it was accidental or intentional. of course, the january 6th committee is trying to find answers, but their search will be ending soon. if republicans win the house this november, it will end abruptly. the most sensible of us have been warning since january 2021 have been warning that another coup could happen but we don't realize that those sworn to protect us and the government might be a part of that effort. it's scary, just imagine how much more dangerous a second coup attempt could be if some of the enemies are already working on the inside? joining me now is my sunday night panel, cristela alonzo is a comedian and actor. so she had a house is a democratic strategist, and michael steele is an msnbc political analyst, former rnc chair lint, and former maryland to lieutenant governor. it's good to have all of you with us. michael, i know you are student of history, and to paraphrase the words of howard baker junior, why how did the secret service know, when did they know it? a lot of people in washington have to be asking themselves that. how disturbed are you by these allegations raised by the january 6th committee? >> i'm very disturbed by it,

and i think that a lot of people, if they aren't, they should be, the fact that these allegations are being raised the way that they have, the fact that seemingly everybody is slow rolling this a little bit, doesn't really seem to be as exercised biden. i find that a little bit problematic. there were a number of us around that time who said that it seemed a little bit of. in particular, i can attest to this as a native washingtonian, who knows what a large crowd comes to d. c., what happens in this town. between police, d. c. police, capitol police, secret service, fbi, all of the law enforcement agencies. and it just felt different. the fact that you watched them stormed the way that they did, the lack of resistance to that. you heard people say at the

time, if that where in fact black lives matter protesters, there would've been a lot more violence, and a lot more bodies on the ground. not violence by the protesters. violence by the police, intercepting them. i think that asking these questions now is appropriate and important. the fact that we have to ask them, or need to ask them, i think it's really chilling. >> so gee, i am old enough to remember following the intelligence failures of 9/11 what this country did in terms of how we overhauled our intelligence community. we looked at the failures. if you had to pick one of -- you know, between negligence, ignorance, or complicity, what do you think is behind the so-called intelligence failure that allowed for the chaos of the capitol insurrection? >> i think there's a lot that we still don't know. just last week, there is video that was made public from speaker nancy pelosi, begging the administration, and begging those an office to send the national guard, and to send help. and to basically ask, what would you do if this were the white house? what would you do if this were any other government entity. the speaker of the house should not be asking that question. we should be having law enforcement, and our members of congress, and the speaker of

the house, or majority leaders, and the rest of the federal government. they should have protection in place when they're trying to execute their jobs. one interesting thing that i don't think has been mentioned yet is that the department of justice has inspector general, and they are tasked with investigating this type of thing. they announced an investigation last year, which has not wrapped, and they are looking into the fact, what happened leading up to it. and the preparations of. it i think that a lot of people will be watching for that to see exactly what the ig finds. and what exactly happened so that the american people have answers. >> cristela, for the last couple of years, republicans, radio cranks, and fox hosts, they have been raving about the deep state.

and yet here we are with a very disturbing evidence of the fbi and secret service agents having sympathies for the january 6th insurrectionists. so far, not a peep from the right wing about this so-called deep state. what do you make of that? >> i think that i can sum it up like this. they are hypocrites, it doesn't help their cause. why would they say anything? it's not going to help get votes. i will say that what i heard the people were comparing it to black lives matter movements. black lives matter was about occupying the justice. trying to speak about how black lives actually mattered. but the situation, the right,

which white by the way happened on my birthday, january 6th, was to stop democracy from happening. that is very different from the technology, people struggling. and people need equality. and so i think that that is really frustrating. look, we are seeing the hypocrisy everywhere. for example, virgil walker in georgia. this team to stand for is not what they stand for. what they want is votes. that's all it is. the party of popularity. they want to say anything they want to become popular. they don't mean anything that they say, because that is a prime example. it's, like what suits us best? that's what we want right now. >> michael, how do you wrap your hand around certain folks with conservative leanings at the fbi, and at the secret service? i use that reluctantly, because i think that it's so much more than simply conservative leanings. these are people that are interested with ensuring that people who run our government, if you're looking at the secret service, and also other

investigations into the fbi, which is the premier law enforcement agency. apparently, admiring those who tried to violate and violently overthrow american democracy. the severity of that liberation, i don't think it has landed on most americans just yet. >> i would agree with that. i don't think it has, and i think that a lot of it has to do with the fact the republicans have allowed conservatism as i grew up inside of the republican party over 160 years to become this bastardized, right-wing, ideological-y intolerance mindset. it's certainly not what the founding of the party was about. and so you don't have folks

reiterating and reaffirming those principles. for example, one smaller government, less government intrusion in the lives of every day, ordinary americans. a fair attack system, et cetera. that's nothing to do with overthrowing the government. it's not the same thing. it has nothing to do with repressing the vote. republicans right now forget that we were working hand in hand with the civil rights agenda of the late 50s and early 60s to get voting rights, and so forth. and now, we have spat on them. we crap all over them. people take that as conservatives. as a conservatives, i'm

offended by that. i get, it and i understand that. i really look around at the folks inside of the party, and i go, why are you allowing this to happen. when you see this element growing up inside of our military, inside of our police forces, there is no leadership there to redirect that energy, and to refocus, that this is about your public service. this is not about your political agenda. absent that, we are now getting these reports -- and i dare say, ayman, that there will be more to come in, this more that will surprise and it disappoint us in the weeks amongst ahead. >> and really quickly, why should the biden administration be doing right now? this is a very serious moment. should they be ringing the alarm bell? should they be leaning more, if you will, on this issue? >> when it comes to the handling of how line forsman has deal that january 6th. they're leaving that up to the department of justice. i think that they should. the president has been very careful and getting involved in any kind of investigations, and leaving max attorney merrick garland, and aggressively going after those involved in january 6th. i think what the president has done, and will continue to, do is raise awareness among round some of what is at stake in our democracy. i think that you will continue to see him do that ahead of our election. >> all, right stick around, we have a lot more to discuss during this hour. after the break, we'll be joined by a train fought, as the secretary of state candidate is running against a dangerous promoter of the big lie. before, that richard louis is here with the headlines. hi, richard. >> a very good evening to you. a suspect faces attempted murder charges for their alleged role in a mass shooting on monday morning in virginia. this happened in a party near the james madison university campus in harrisonburg.

eight people were hospitalized with non life-threatening gunshot wounds. around state media saying that four people died and over 60 were injured when a fire broke out in tehran's evan prison. iranian officials says that the fire started with a fight between prisoners, adding that it was not linked to protests sweeping that nation. msnbc has not affirmed the number of deaths and cause of injuries. california residents will use the upcoming -- a ban over flavored tobacco. the state banned the sale of flavored tobacco products two years ago, but the law has never been allowed to go into effect. we are with ayman mohyeldin, right after this break. when our daughter and her kids moved in with us... our bargain detergent couldn't keep up. turns out it's mostly water. so, we switched back to tide. one wash, stains are gone. [daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. (vo) you can be well-dressed. (man) wahoooo! (vo) you can be well-groomed. or even well-spoken. (man) ooooooo. (vo) but there's just something about being well-adventured.

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represent republicans sprawling election denialism movement in america right now is probably arizona. the swing state has three major races with election deniers on the ticket. just today, the republican candidate for governor, kari lake, refusing to commit to accepting the results of her own election. the republican candidate for senate, blake masters, he has preemptively claimed that his election will be stolen, and accused machines of flipping the vote. despite that not being an actual thing. and possibly the most dangerous is secretary of state candidate mark finchem, who is already suggesting that he would not certify a biden victory in 2024. all three of these candidates have been endorsed by the big liar himself, donald trump. of course, arizona is one piece of this growing election

denialism movement, and reuters now reports that there has been multiple incidents of voter intimidation throughout the country from an expanding army of election observers. many of them, recruited by prominent gop figures and activists echoing trump's election lies. just in time for the midterms. on that note, let's bring in adrienne -- the democratic candidate for arizona, and secretary of state. it's great to have you with us. as i just laid out, there is kind of alarming to see what has happened in your state. let's start with the comments we heard this morning, these alarming comments from kari lake, as well as masters, and your opponent, mark finchem, about not accepting the results of the elections. >> i can't hear the comments, but i'm here. >> can you hear me? >> i can hear you. >> let me repose that question. i was saying, what is your reaction to some of these current troubling comments that

we have heard coming out of the candidates in arizona that effectively -- >> sorry, yes. i'm not surprised by it at all. i don't think anybody should be. these folks are not just buying into the big lie, they are a part of the big lie. that's what's dangerous. it's not so much because they are spilling out these lies, it is who they are lying against. they're lying against regular americans, democrats, republicans, independents, the regular folks that actually ran these elections, partially under my charge when i was -- but in all counties in all of the united states of america, destroying the faith that we have in one another. that's a real problem. >> do you think that the country is taking these threats seriously? we're seeing reports that states like michigan and colorado are seeing a surge in election deniers looking to be poll workers. are people not taking this threat seriously? >> i think people are starting to take it seriously, but we should've been taking it seriously about a year or so

ago, when we found out that the rnc would be spending 100 and $54 million training people to get out there and try to intimidate voters at polling places. that's why we are encouraging every arizonan to vote early. if you're an arizona voter, your voting has already started, october 12. the ballots went out in the mail. if those opportunities exist across the country, we are encouraging folks to vote early, please make sure that you get your ballots cast said that you know that they will be that in the hands of election officials, and tabulated just to avoid any of these nonsense on the election day. >> despite the early voting, your opponent has said that he doesn't care for mail-in voting, and prepares going to the polls. but the irony and the hypocrisy as republicans have now been becoming famous for, is his own voting history file. it shows that he is voted by mail 28 times since 2004. again, it's okay for him to vote by mail, but not for

everybody else. >> look, here's the problem that we have with my opponent. he was paid $6,000 by donald trump to put on a fake hearing on november 30th, 2020, from which he gathered supposedly evidence that he would take on january 6th. but he was an organizer of the january 6th insurrection against our constitution, as indicated by ali alexander himself. this guy is an oathkeeper since 2014, he's an antisemite, he has called for an civil war, and the stockpiling of weapons, ammunitions, ostensibly to kill other americans. he is dangerous, and not just dangerous because of the politics. he's dangerous because of what he might not do. he has also called for a complete hand count of all ballots, which is not only less accurate and secure, but it will take forever here in arizona. we are going to have well over 4 million eligible voters by the time that we get to looking at our final roles. this is a real problem. >> i want to get your reaction

to this startling promise that jim marchant made. he's obviously the gop secretary of state candidate of nevada. he said this to trump supporters last week, watch this. >> so we have something in common. president trump and i lost an election in 2020 because of a rigged election. >> when i am secretary of state of nevada, we're going to fix it. president trump is going to be president again in 2024. >> it sounds to me like he wants to subvert our democracy and install himself in president trump as -- former president trump, as the president in 2024. your reaction? >> look, it's exactly the same thing that we saw in the debate that we had against my opponent, when i asked him what was different between 2020 and the primary in 2022. he said the candidates. there were no other problems, i guess in august of 2022. look, these guys are donald trump bootlickers. the whole thing comes from one

lost election, one guy's hurt feelings, one set of snowflakes who cannot -- i guess they didn't play organized sports when they were kids or something, because they are acting like children. that is a significant problem here. it's not just a problem for elections. elections, as i've said, are the golden thread that runs through the fabric of our entire society. everything is impacted by. it education, business, medicine, law, the arts and sciences, all of that society is impacted. if you pull that golden thread, out it all disintegrates. that's why we are hoping that people will go to elect fontana 's. com, and help us out. if you want to volunteer around the country, that's great, if you want to donate, that is necessary to keep getting that message out to make sure that we have got honor and integrity in the arizona secretary of state's office. >> adrian --, it's a pleasure. greatly appreciate you highlighting what is at stake for your state, and certainly for our democracy nationwide. best of luck, sir. thank you. >> thank you.

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favorite game, worst republican of the week. this time, it is a bit different. we are going to say right here and now that each candidate actually wins the title, since they are all so monstrous in their own ways. the worst of the worst this week, donald trump, kari lake, alex jones. let's break down their offenses. this morning, as i discussed with mehdi, trump pasted a blatantly and systematic message on his social media platform, attacking jews in the united states, saying that they need to get their act together, and appreciate israel before it is too late. absolutely abhorrent language. next up, arizona's republican nominee for governor, kari lake, who has we mention that our

last segment, just refused today to accept the results of her election if she loses. >> will you accept the results of your election in november? >> i'm going to win the election, and i will accept that result. >> if you lose, will you accept that? >> i'm going to win the election, and i will accept that result. >> is that somehow supposed to drive voters out to support her? >> and then there is our least favorite far-right conspiracy theorist, alex jones. this week, jones was ordered to pay nearly a billion dollars to relatives of sandy hook school shooting victims for promoting the lie that the massacre was a hoax. as the judgment came down, what did alex jones do? he was broadcasting live, fundraising, not for the victims, but for himself. what is worse, he proclaimed to viewers that he would not pay the victims of his harassment. my sunday night panel is back with me. i will start with you. your reaction to trump's antisemitic social media post?

you have an antisemite, an election denier, and alex jones, this conspiracy theorist. >> i don't even know where to start. first of all, i think that the comments from the former president are extremely insulting. you've had people come out to talk about them. when it comes to alex jones, let's remind you that this is historic. what the jury decided here. the reality is, it's that he has been tormenting sandy hook families, families that lost their children, for years, and this was something that was bittersweet for them. they love that there was justice, and appreciated with the jury said. but if you heard from those families, they just want closure. and he was spreading conspiracy theories for years, and so while i am grateful for that, at the same time i am grateful for what happened and what the jury decided. at the same time, these families need closure, and my hope is that they can get that soon. >> certainly so. michael, my colleague, was talking to representative ilhan

omar, and there is this contrast that occurred to me. it's when democrats misspeak, and sometimes say things that they regret, every single member of the democratic party, from the leadership on down is asked about it. they condemn it. how should republicans respond to yet more antisemitism from donald trump? you still have the house gop judiciary committee with that tweet, saying the trump, elon, and kanye, and yet republicans go about, nobody asks about, it it's business as usual for for the republicans. >> you just said, it it's business as usual. this is the new business of the party. all of the alliances, the old relationships, the old storylines that have being a part of holding our country, and our parties, the political parties together, they've been severed. and so you have -- it's not just dysfunction, it is a level of cynical anti-democratic view of the

country, and its citizens. we are all other if we are not with them. and so when i look at the lineup for the nasty player of the week, they all get a tip of the hat. but i see in that listing, i think that kari lake is probably the more dangerous of the three. because she is currently on a ballot to be the governor of one of our 50 states. she will have an enormous amount of power and influence, should she win. what does that mean for the rest of us? we are slowly watching ourselves step into this new america with a k, and the reality of it, is there are very few republicans who want to do anything about it. they are fully accepting of it. and so i think that the rest of the country, the rest of us are going to figure out how to draw these battle lines, because apparently the ballot box will not be enough.

and so, we are going to have to figure out how we make the case to the american people that this is not the course that we should be on. >> crystal, what do you make of kari lake's comments, refusing to accept the results of the election? donald trump is introduced this, he may not have been the first one, but denialism from these candidates is not par for the recourse for the republican candidates. >> look, ayman, i can say i have a unicorn, it doesn't mean it's true. honestly. you can say whatever you want. trump said that he -- is he president right now? no. you can say whatever you want. it doesn't matter. but when you actually make any kind of movement, it always comes first. the truth. the truth will always come out. it doesn't matter how much he delayed, how much you do, i can say that hey, i am going to deny that i am mexican. guess what? i'm still mexican.

it doesn't matter. you can say and do what you want, but honestly, at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. whatever the facts are, the facts are. people love to think that that facts are just suggestions. guess what? truth always wins at the end of the day. go ahead, say that you won't admit, admit that you will lost the election. but then what? then you get to hear your voice for more months than the media can choose to not cover you? >> the thing that scares me, and i was just going to say this, if you saw the case of donald trump, he said what he believed, which is that he denied the election results. but then he mobilized a mob to attack our government. that was one person. if you have that in 20 or 30 states, and you have candidates like kari lake saying that her followers -- hey, we're going to go to the arizona state capital, in demand and protest, and who knows what they want to do? maybe they'll be violent and say that the election got stolen from us. aren't you worried about that being the normal tipping point, the violence as a result of that rhetoric?

>> as a latina, i can say that i am used to seeing a lot of different violence in this country from many different reasons. the violence will happen regardless of what it is, but i will say that people having this resurgence, this birth of election deniers and the movement, and what have you. it will only last so long. violence is always a concern, but a few years ago, do you remember how prominent the tea party was? everyone is worried about the tea party, this is going to happen with the tea party. what happens? people got elected, and now we don't talk about the tea party. now it's maga. there's that think there will always be something new. but the thing is and what people don't understand is that we put attention to them because they are loud. the majority of this country does not believe in that, and yes, they can storm the capital,

try to instigate violence, but the reason that the u.s. capital -- the reason it was under attack on january 6th was because the president of the united states said so. for real, at this point i don't think there is any way that that will happen -- that can happen again. i think on that level, and i know that i am in a minority of saying this, but i believe that once we know that people are capable of doing that, the majority of us that are good people will try to fight and make sure that that doesn't happen -- and by fighting, i mean voting. making our voices heard. coming up, showing support, we can't let these people seem to be so loud. we have to be louder and i think that is one of the things that we have to do. >> i was just going to say. i really hope your optimism prevails, because you're way more optimistic than me. going to go out on a limb and say that based on michael steele's reaction, they're probably with me on this one.

but we all share your optimism, and we hope that you are correct in the end. >> i hope you are, sister, i really do. >> michael steele, what are we going to do? we can't be negative. that ages you too quickly. we've got to have these fighting chances. honestly. >> i don't know if we have much more age left in us, to be honest. but crystal, michael steel, sochi, calista, thank you so much for joining, us always a pleasure. we enjoyed that. a quick note, and we want to make an important correction. last night, we got a fact wrong on this show, and we want to make sure that we own up to that mistake. in our monologue about republican debates, we said that marco rubio was not going to be debating val demings. that was simply wrong, rubio will debate congresswoman demings this week. we regret that air, and apologize. we'll be make sure to turn into that debate on october 18th. up next, the me too movement five years later, stay with us.

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culture began to change. although we could never predict just how seismic the changes would be. actress ashley judd accused film producer harvey weinstein of sexual harassment. ten days later, alyssa milano tweeted this message out. quote, if you have been sexually harassed or assaulted, write me too as a reply to this tweet. within hours, millions of people, predominantly women and girls, repeated those words. this caused me too to try and worldwide. facebook reported at the time that 45% of users in the u.s. had a friend that had posted about me too. a global movement soon arrived. women share their experiences with at the same degree of retribution and retaliation that it had for so long haunted them, and kept them silent. this collective sharing reinforced one of the original

intents of the phrase. nobody is alone. women could reclaim their lives, and re-center narratives, reframing themselves as survivors. not as victims. me too did not just go viral, it also expanded. people began using it to describe the domestic violence and gender bias. the roots of this movement go back much further than 2017. toronto burke founded what we know as metoo now, back in 2006. at the time, she was working in alabama, at an organization focused on teaching young women in her community, primarily black and brown girls, how to develop a sense of self-esteem. that is where she encountered girls who disclosed experiences with sexual violence. metoo was soon born. burke herself began using the phrase to help these young girls feel a little bit less alone. since this phrase has entered our zeitgeist, there has been real, tangible progress in how we address sexual assault and

harassment. powerful men with patterns of harassment or assault have been held accountable. between 2017 and 2021, 286 metoo related bills passed in state legislators around this country. codifying the work of the movement. as burke herself points out, quote, more than any law that has passed or policy in the past five years, this movement has created visibility for the community -- for those of us who fought we -- was never ours to carry in the first place. what we have indeed made some great strides, we must remember that many women, especially the young black and brown women who helped spark this global movement remain vulnerable. studies show that although the overall number of reported incidents of sexual harassment violations in the workplace are declining, black women still

experienced this harassment at a high rate. it is wrong to deemed us as a failure of metoo, in fact movements do not change the world overnight, or even over five years. as toronto burke points out, it is a failure of the systems, because we are still, for the most part, living under the same systems that failed those young girls in alabama, that failed ashley judd, and the millions who have shared their stories since then. we all must fight, we must continue to raise awareness, we must continue to call out wrongs, and maybe, just maybe, most importantly to give space to women to feel comfortable to have these conversations, and share their experiences. that is what toronto burke and metoo have done. they have given people the space to talk, to share, to not be alone. metoo is not only a moment, it is a movement. we are so fortunate to have to

-- miss burke here in the studio live. after the break, she'll join me. i'm going to speak with her about the progress that has been made in the future of the metoo movement. don't go anywhere. ♪ it's the most wonderful time of the year ♪ claritin provides non-drowsy symptom relief from over 200 indoor and outdoor allergens, day after day. feel the clarity and make today the most wonderful time of the year. live claritin clear. ♪ (customer) save yourself?! money with farmers. (burke) that's not wrong. when you bundle your home and auto policies with farmers, you save yourself up to twenty percent. (customer) that's something. (burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers. kinda creepy. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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metoo movement went viral. it brought to light millions of cases of sexual harassment and harassment around the world. joining me now is the founder of that movement, tarana burke. it's great to have you in the studio, great to see you and meet you in person finally, been following your work for so many years. as we mentioned, it's been five years since this movement was launched. how do you -- it's been a remarkable journey, how do you take it all in? how do you evaluate what all of these past years have been? >> the way that i've been framing, it i think i try to help people frame it as when the five year marks happen in civil rights movement, or any social justice movements, people tend to want to talk about all of the things that have happened, and how do you feel? what i've been talking about lately is what metoo has made possible. it's easy to codify, like you talked about, the laws and policies, and the cases. i think that it's really important to think about with the last five years have been made possible. just five and a half years ago, we couldn't have a sustained conversation about sexual

violence in this country. now we can. five and a half years ago, survivors of sexual violence, no matter how they identified, could not feel comfortable to talk about the things that they have experienced. now we can. we've made so much more possible in the last five years. in, fact we've made more impossible in the last five years, than we could in the next 20 years. >> what do you attribute that to? is it simply a cultural shift, or a fact than everybody realized, hey, you're not alone, and the sheer volume of people who had survived sexual abuse were so compelling that they could no longer be ignored? >> you couldn't look away. i think that when it went viral, a sheer number of people that came forward, i think of course you had the celebrities, people like that they came out. but you can't take away from the labor of survivors who came forward. everyday people who decided to put the hashtag online, or tell a friend, and just disclosed for the first time. so many people. you're talking about in the

first 24 hours, there were 12 billion -- you can't ignore that. i think that once that happened, it created a community, and one of the places that we don't even find to be safe a lot of times for survivors, it created a community on the internet. that spilled into real life. once people couldn't look away, we built from there. >> as i mentioned, you started working with young brown and black girls in alabama. that's where this began. since then, this movement has evolved. i just want to know how has your work evolved from what you are doing in alabama, to what you are doing now? how has that informed the way that you organize, and the way that you collectively mobilize your team, your organization? >> first of, all our work evolves from girls, from the very beginning. even before 2017, i started with black and brown girls in alabama. we started including more and more people, even before 2017 came. one of the biggest things that i think i learned in the last five years is that we have to

focus on culture shift and narrative change. we can change as many laws and policies that we want to, what if we do not change the way that people understand sexual violence, if we don't undermine the rule of rape culture in this country, then it won't matter what kind of laws we pass. in fact, we had laws on the books to say that these things are illegal for years, but people ignored them. it's the culture that we have that makes a space for the violence. once we undermine that, then we will have people engaging differently with sexual violence. understanding it as a public health crisis, and a social justice issue. >> i was moved by a piece that you wrote in time magazine this, piece and i want to read a little bit of it. and you referenced a win in the u.s. counter during the ford testimony. you said that she could remember more. we see often the survivors are dismissed when they can't recount exactly every detail of what they survived, and what they endured. somehow, because they can't

remember everything, they are not the perfect victim. talk to me a little bit about this idea, when you talk with the cultural shift it needs to happen, what we need to do to simply believe women? >> this is what i call the life cycle of a survivor. it's a misconception we have because of all the television shows, i'm a survivor myself. that's why i use that story to explain. people think, there are some people that remember every single detail and moment. and then you have to understand that this is some of the worst things that've ever happen to us. i do not want to remember. i do remember a lot of the details, but because i don't want to remember, a rather lose all of the memories then, to remember that moment in my life. i think it's things like that the people don't get about what sexual violence is. you have to compare it as a type of death for so many people. you've taken a part of us that we can never get back. we can only try to get something new in its place, and try to be whole again. when people understand what sexual violence does to a person, i think that they will

engage with it differently. and engage, it's not about individuals, it's about our collective safety. if you care about gun violence, you should care about sexual violence, because it's about our safety, our community's safety. >> i want to ask you about men in this -- a, what role do men play in this movement, when you talk about a cultural shift, and a change of this system, men are obviously a big part of that reality. how do we change it? what is incumbent on men to do it in this system change that you're talking about. >> one, it's incumbent on all of us that we know that men are survivors as well. the first role of men in the metoo movement is as survivors. we can think about this as a women's movement, and stop thinking about sexual violence is something that only happens to women. if we understand that it happens to all of us, everyone will engage in, then maybe this

is something that we all attack together. i also think that we have to talk about power and privilege. we have to understand if people don't ever want to relinquish their power and privilege. when you think about power and privilege, you think about people that are the most vulnerable. those are the people who are always going to be attacked. people don't ever want to relinquish that power and privilege. men who have a lot of power and privilege have to be able to do some self analysis. people who have a lot of power and privilege have to do self analysis about how they use that power and privilege. sexual violence is not about sex. it's not about desire. it's about power and privilege. once we can rethink the way that we have been engaging with that and understanding that, then we can understand how to fight this issue differently. >> all right, tarana burke, it is been five years, longer since the beginning of this movement. thank you for all of your incredible work, and everything everyone else is doing. we have a long way to go to make it right, but it's an important milestone nonetheless. thank you so much, great to see you. >> thank you for having me. >> and thank you for making time for us this weekend. you can catch ayman saturdays

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