we are at the countdown stage of the election cycle. it is october 17th, 22 dams from november 8th, election day. 22 days left for each candidate to find a way to convince those

remaining undecided voters to decide. there's a lot of them out there. with every day comes a new batch of headlines that can help or hurt. today, it is the economy. the job numbers are still strong, gas prices, inflation, and a declining stock market have a lot of folks feeling like this country is going in the wrong direction. and the numbers show that they are blaming the party in power. these are new polling numbers from "the new york times" and sienna college. republicans are winning on the genericic ballot, 49% of likely voters are leaning red, and 45% blue. it is a small margin, but it is significant because last month, democrats were in the lead. the big shift comes in part from independent female voters. we're going to ask our numbers guy, dave wasserman of the cook political report what accounts for their striking 32 point

swing toward republican. and we will figure out how much weight to give the generic ballot and that's going on with the race for the senate? new data shows a surprisingly tight race in utah, and you're going to want to hear what mike luis is begging of what we will call his frenemy mitt romney. the balance of power might be decided in utah, believe it or not or georgia. early voting began there today. . we were in savannah there, as you know, teeing up what is expected to be a explosive debate between raphael war knock and herschel walker and it was. we sat down with herschel walker after said debate and asked him why he flashed a badge on stage, again claiming to a law enforcement officer. and he is not. >> this is from my hometown. this is from johnson county, from the sheriff of johnson county, which is a legit badge. >> does that have arresting authority or an honorary badge? >> it is an honorary badge, but they can call me whatever they want, and i have the authority to do things for them.

>> the national sheriff's association said an honorary badge, quote, is for the trophy case. why make the decision that it -- >> that is totally not true. >> we've got a lot to, as you can imagine. one caveat though. we can talk all day about the numbers and the horse race, but again this is not a normal election. hanging above all of it, all of the normal policy issues, like the economy, crime, abortion, there is the very not normal issue of whether to believe in democracy itself. that conversation we're going to have that in a moment but let's start with our reporters who are hearing a lot of stuff on the ground, joining me from atlanta, is nbc's blayne alexander, and in youngstown, ohio, nbc's jesse kirsch. so moving on from the senate race and going toward what we're going to see tonight in georgia, and that is the governor's race, between stacey abrams and brian kemp, what is the status of that race, and what do we expect for

tonight's debate? >> very closely watched rematch from 2018. we're going to see these two go head-to-head again in the first two of debates this election cycle. and let's start with the polling. the recent quinnipiac poll shows the two are in close proximity and stacey abrams trailing by one point, and the incumbent governor, but it is worth noting that a number of recent polls across the season show kemp leading by a wider margin. needless to say a very closely watched race. as for what we expect to hear, talking to republicans sources, one thing that governor kemp is leaning on this time that he didn't have last time he was running against stacey abrams is a record, he has been governor for four years so some strategists i have spoken to said they are hoping to essentially look to suburban voters and areas like where i'm standing right now, people who didn't necessarily vote for the governor before, when he was running just as a candidate, but who has had four years to watch him govern and look at some of his policies and may lean in to

the column this time. as for stacey abrams, one thing that she has and made more of a platform is the issue of abortion. when i've spoken to her, going around the clock, she's had women talk to her, say, this is a key issue and this is why i flip over to your side and cast my ballot for you. and when i've spoken to republicans across the state, that is a major issue. but it also shows that some are voting for kemp for that very same reason and it depends what sides of the abortion debate that you fall. early voting is today. certainly notable that voters are going to be hearing from the candidates tonight, in their first debate. and turnout of course is an issue. and early voting is a big deal here in georgia. so both candidates are trying to get their voters out before election day. >> turnout is an issue. there was a bit of a test on primary day, of how the new rules were going to affect georgia elections, and a lot of new rules introduced, and explained post-2020, what is the feeling on folks' ability, especially in the cities and the minority votes, black and brown

people, their ability to get out to vote after all of the changes that were made. >> well, back on primary day, we did see a large number of people turn out to vote, but when i pressed on that and asked different sources, that's the electorate that you expect to come out and vote and the ones that plan their vote and know in advance where to go to the polls and don't typically have issues. it's the election day crowd that they're worried about, the people that show up last minute and don't necessarily come out and vote early and that's who they're trying to reach and urge to get to the votes early and any issues, they can troubleshoot in that regard. something interesting that i heard from a kemp event that i went to several weeks ago, he said quite frankly over the past few cycles, democrats have outworked republicans when it comes to their ground game. they simply have been better at getting their voters out to vote. he says that can't happen this time around. sow kind of heard this interesting get out the vote message, from the republican governor, brian kemp which is typically something you hear from democrats but also making

it clear that this early voting period is absolutely crucial. >> indeed it is. jesse, let's look at ohio and another place that could turn the balance of power in the senate. jd vance versus tim ryan. they've already had a debate, it was a fiery one, putting it diplomatically, what are we expecting for tonight? >> you got to imagine there might be more zingers that we'll be talking about tomorrow. bust i think what this is going to come down to, again, is a matter of authenticity and playing toward the middle in some regard. i think that tim ryan is trying to paint jd vance as far right and jd vance is trying to paint tim ryan as far left and both trying to convince voters that they're the more authentically ohioan candidate. we've seen that play out throughout this campaign. one of the things that stood out to me from the debate last week when tim ryan was trying to tie jd vance to politicians on the

far right and trump-ism and vance said let's talk about something important like grocery bills and people trying to afford groceries and that was something that was seen by republicans across the country, trying to talk about the economy and bring the conversation back to that, tim ryan was trying to peel off voters on the right who might have trump fatigue. and that's what we see continuing to play out. ryan pitches himself as someone who can work across the aisle and vance wants to convince voters that ryan is just 100% with president biden, and other democratic leaders so we'll continue to see that playing out and i think it is going to come down again, a question of authenticity, and they don't always disagree as much as candidates might in other races, so that's something we're going to be looking for and also looking to see what might come up again about the abortion issue. it's unclear exactly how much that's going to factor into various races across the country. and we know that here in ohio, the governor's race is not, does not appear to be close based on polling and that's a race where the democratic nominee has

really leaned into the abortion issue. tim ryan and jd vance were asked last week and i think there is later to be had on that issue. that's another topic we'll be looking for and again, we'll be waiting to see what goes viral because that is what we're often looking at in the aftermath of these debates as well. >> and given the number of people who watch it in realtime, it is often what you said what gets snip and pushed out on social media that gets quite a bit of attention. thank you. and again, this is not a normal election. hundreds of candidates aren't just running on policy. they're running on conspiracy as well. and in some places, it appears to be working. there are more than 370 candidates out there in races for the senate, the house, and key state elections positions who according to "the new york times" have cast doubt on the 2020 election. there by denying or questioning the function of democracy itself. some are names you haven't heard before. candidates who don't really stand a chance. others get a lot of play. and are either ahead or locked

in tight races. like arizona governor candidate kari lake. >> i'm going to win the election and i will accept that result. >> if you lose, will you accept that? >> i'm going to win the election and i will accept that result. >> again, as crazy as that might have once sounded, refusing to say that she would accept the results of the election if she lost, kari lake is not an outlier. we know this. and the question now is what do we do if she wins. what does she do if she wins and what does she do if she lose, and we asked that question before of another high profile candidate, the one who enabled all of these election deniers and we got our answer on january 6th. joining me now is usa today's washington bureau chief susan page and the cook political report senior editor david wasserman. david, when the times gives this analysis, 370 candidates out there who have questioned the

2020 election. you and i talk to much about policy and the numbers and where people's heads are at, but this is an election that is again not about policy and an election that is about conspiracy. >> well, and it is, and the certification process could be a real nightmare this cycle. it could drag on for weeks, especially in states with races that are exceptionally close, and we are going to have many of those because we have such a hotly-contested senate and house battlefield, but i met many of these candidates on the republican side, and it's become a litmus test in republican primaries. keep in mind that many of them, first half, spend money against each other and run far to the right before running against democrats and it hasn't been a case where democrats top message against these republicans is january 6th or failure to believe in democracy. democrats have will to find other opposition research to

disqualify people like jrmajewski in ohio and john gibbs in michigan and some of the others who are problematic nominees. >> susan, one of the issues here that it is helping some candidates especially in the primaries but potentially hurting them in the general election and i want to look at utah, because this is not a state i thought we would be talking about for the midterm cycle and we have, mike lee is up against evan mcmullen and he's been outspoken, an outspoken critic against donald trump and the republican party as it stands. and he has come away with a very tight race with mike lee, who was one of the people that tried to help keep donald trump in office in the aftermath of the 2020 election. let me play a clip of mike lee, and tucker carlson, asking for help from mitt romney. >> i've asked him, i'm asking him right here, again, tonight, right now, please, get on board, help me win re-election.

help us do that. >> i deeply respect senator romney's leadership in the senate, for utah and for our country, and i respect and appreciate his decision to stay out of this race. >> mitt romney, as evan mclittlen has said, stayed out of this race, no love lost between mitt romney and mike lee. what is happening in utah? >> it is extraordinary to think that a republican incumbent senate candidate in utah could lose his re-election bid to an independent candidate, but mike lee is only five points ahead in the latest statewide poll that is a lead, and not really a safe lead and it is extraordinary to see mike lee begging, pleading with mitt romney with whom he does not have a good relationship, for his support, i think there is no sign that senator romney is about to endorse mike lee. he says he is also friends with mcmillan. and the independent candidates have been closer to romney's

view on president trump and on the 2020 election than senator lee has been so that could be one. if you're looking for surprises to watch for, on election night, katy, this is one to watch. >> what do you think, dave? >> i think utah will be in play. i think if we're off in one direction, and it is more likely to be underestimating the size of the republican wave at this point. >> so why would mike lee go on tucker and beg for support from mitt romney? >> he wants extra insurance there. and look, there are polls in 2016 that showed utah somewhat close. and we all know what happened to donald trump, when he ended up winning with a plurality and ended up with 55% of vote in 2020. at the end of the day it is a very difficult state for a nonrepublican to crack. >> let me ask you about what "the new york times" asked today, the sienna poll, we're looking at the swing here, female independent voters doing

a 32 point swing, last month favoring democrats by 14 points and this month favoring republicans by 18 points. dave, what's going on? >> yeah, i am going to hold up a yellow flag here, because to read in a 32-point swing in a month, among a sub-set of voters in a poll that has 792 total respondents, to me that is not believable that we have seen a shift in that cohort with that statistical noise. but have we seen on the aggregate some snap-back toward republicans in the last few week, as we've grown a little bit more distance from the dobbs decision and some of the other factors that gave democrats momentum in august? sure. and some leading names, katie porter in california. and even sean patrick maloney, not out of the woods. they've got very close races. because voters are so focused on inflation. and i think the most damaging side for democrats in the new

"new york times" sienna poll is that 44% of voters rated inflation and the economy the top issue and 5% abortion. >> and for those who are deeply concerned about the future of democracy, it's how can you hold those two things in two hands. how can you hold the concern about democracy and concern about economy and how could you place the economy above the concern for democracy, there are a lot of voters out there who don't see the concern for democracy, as strongly as maybe people in some of the bluer cities do, so susan, when you're looking at these numbers and looking at the way things are swaying, what do you think is going to be, who do you think is going to prevail in again this not normal election cycle? >> if you look at history, the economy is almost always issue number one. on voters' minds. and we do see record levels of inflation. so no surprise that people are concerned about that. but i would just echo dave's concern about this "new york times" poll. we would like to see some more data. we have a poll of ohio coming

out at 4:00. and it is going to bring up the numbers then, but i will tell you abortion continues to be a very powerful issue, with independent women, in ohio, and we saw a big differential between independent men and independent women, and how they are voting in the senate race. so always good with one poll, and wait for other polls to come to fill out the picture about what is happening. >> and always good to take all of the polling with a grain of salt, because who knows what happens on election day. 22 days is quite a long time. dave wasserman, susan page, thank you very much. and still ahead, we're going to talk about deadly kamikaze drones that struck at the center of kyiv this morning. russia is intensifying its attacks on civilian targets. now, what ukraine is asking its western allies to do about it. and after weeks of widespread protests, across iran, a major fire at a jail known for housing political prisoners. what provoked it, and what iran

is saying about the death toll. later on, donald trump attacked american jews on social media. what he said online and the real world effect those words have. . he used to do side jobs installing windows, charging something like a hundred bucks a window when other guys were charging four to five-hundred bucks. he just didn't wanna do that. he was proud of the price he was charging. ♪♪ my dad instilled in me, always put the people before the money. be proud of offering a good product at a fair price. i think he'd be extremely proud of me, yeah. ♪♪ ♪ ♪ i'm getting vaccinated with prevnar 20. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. i'm asking about prevnar 20. because there's a chance pneumococcal pneumonia could put me in the hospital. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions

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kyiv was attacked again this morning. russia bombarded the capital city with kamikaze drones carrying explosives. you can see some people on the ground in video we're about to show you trying to shoot those kamikaze drones down. the drones targeted those civilians and infrastructure and electrical substation, knocking out power across ukraine. at least four people were killed in the explosion. more are feared trapped or dead in the rubble. nbc's cal perry is on the ground in kyiv with the latest. so cal, these kamikaze drones, what do we know about russia's

access to them and how is ukraine dealing with it? >> reporter: according to the ukrainians, it is the iranians who are supplying them to the russians. you have denial from the russians, from the iranians, but according to the united states and ukraine, that's who is supplying these drones. how are people dealing with it? as you said, it's very strange. i have never experienced anything like it. these drones come in slow and low, and they have an engine that sounds like a moped, so people around town call them the mopeds, and as you said people were firing at them this morning. the government initially asked people, go outside and if you see a drone shoot it out of the sky and four hours later they didn't think that was a very good idea and they put out a city alert to ask people to leave it to the army and the police. it gives you an idea how this is something new. this is new warfare being used and we're learning about it together. the government had warned that the russians would move from the cruise missiles to the more crude drones. but the damage that they can do, and you're seeing there video from the scene is extensive

this. damage collapsed a half of an apartment building, it killed four people, and a young couple expecting a baby and there were four other people wounded, a dozen people rushed to the hospital, and so these drones do a great deal of damage, they're packed with explosives or gasoline, and they are hard for the air defense to shoot oust sky. in the past hour, we saw air defenses around the city going off, at least one drone was shot down. at least two other explosions, security services are asking people to stay inside tonight. they're worried there will be more strikes and we should remind our viewers this comes after a week in which there were hundreds of rockets fired at 30 different ukrainian cities. it is lear this is a new air campaign that is continuing by russia and again, whether or not this is an incompetent military that cannot hit the targets they're trying to hit, it doesn't reallyatter because civilians are dying and it is a deadly conflict that is proven once again. >> i think we have the video somewhere of the people trying to shoot them down, i know i

didn't make that up, and cal, the ukrainians are asking the west for more help, what are they asking for and a reversal from elon musk. can you explain those two things to us? >> reporter: absolutely. they're asking for more air defense systems. more ammunition for the air defenses, and more improved air defenses and the reason there are people right now shuttled underneath the subways to. starlink now and elon musk. so look, starlink, the new satellite service provider, it's low earth orbit satellites and the ukrainian military relies on, this the front line commanders rely on particular the government relies on it, i interviewed the second in command to president zelenskyy last week and he talked about how he is using it to communicate with the president. elon musk got in a twitter fight with the ukrainian ambassador to germany and says that's it i'm not going to fund it and pay for it and then four days later, he said no, i'm going to fund it, and it is confusion on the ground and asked to keep the service up and a -- and it is a vital piece of the war effort while the politics are being

settled out. >> cal perry, thank you very much. in iran, more than half a dozen inmates are dead according to the iranian judiciary after a fire inside the country's prison for thousands of people including many political prisoners are held, including two u.s. citizens. and the video captured the sounds and screams and gunshots from inside the burning building on saturday. it is unclear how that fire began. state media says inmates set fire to their prison uniforms during a clash with guards and that it was unrelated to the anti-government protest raging across iran over the last month. joining us from tehran is nbc's ali aruzzi. what happened in the prison? what do we know today? and what do we know about the americans who are currently housed there? >> hey, katy, this country was already on edge, four weeks,

five weeks into these protests, so when news of this massive fire, the notorious prison here, broke out, there was commotion across tehran. and you have to remember, the president is in tehran, it's surrounded by residential buildings that overlook the prison, so people were describing what was going on in realtime. and as soon as the fire broke out, at about 7:30 local time, there was the constant sound of gunfire, and explosions. they still really haven't been explained. authorities here have said that the prisoners tried to make a break for it and burn up in a minefield outside the prison. then they were retracting that. panic across town. people jumped into their cars, they were rushing toward the prison, to see if their family, friends, loved ones, were okay. and the roads were totally blocked off, car horns were going off, so there was pandemonium in the city, and of course, you know, everybody in

prison, it has your garden variety criminals but it also houses political prisoners, and two american prisoners, one of them who is the longest serving american in an iranian prison, seven years, in that prison, and his lawyer got word that he had been moved to a safe section of the prison, and told his parents and his family that he was fine. other people were worried about their loved ones and they gathered outside the prison, yesterday morning, and today, trying to get answers. there was all sorts of mixed reports from the media about what had happened and nothing added up and today the judiciary is saying that eight people died as a result of the fire. because of the smoke inhalation. and 61 other people have been injured. they doubled the death toll from yesterday, which they said was four and oddly enough in one of the news programs yesterday, the anchor said that 40 people had died, and that later report, she

corrected it, to four people, and now that's been taken up to eight people. so there's a lot of confusion about what happened and there are no real answers at this point. >> what about the protests that we've seen across iran, are they still happening, is the anger still there? >> very much so. the anger is tangible here. the protests ebb and flow. some days they're quiet and some days they are very big and they still carry on through the city. they are still made up predominantly of younger iranians, most of the time at the helm, women or young school kids, and leading the chants, leading the fights, facing off, with security forces and risking, you know, their life and liberty to do this. and another amazing incident today that is unseen of, an iranian rock climber that is

competing for the national team, was competing in seoul, she got to the finals, and started competing without her head scarf. this has never happened before. in the history of the islamic republic. she is almost certainly going to face repiesles when she gets back here. but that act is inspiration for a lot of young people here in iran protesting. so yes, it is still very much in the throes of what's going on here, and it is still at the helm, young iranians, predominantly women leading the charge. >> thank you for your report. and first up, donald trump is attacking the u.s. jewish community. what he said next. what he said next. ♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. think he's posting about all that ancient roman coinage?

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former president donald trump attacked american jews in a post to his social media platform. the online statement shared yesterday warned that jews in the u.s. need to quote get their act together and appreciate israel before it's too late. jonathan greenblat, the head of the defamation league, explained to my colleague andrea mitchell why people shouldn't just shrug off donald trump's comment. >> the context, andrea, is these are dangerous comments at a

dangerous time. we have christian nationalists running for office all over the united states, we have a governor of pennsylvania running against a jewish candidate who regularly refers to the elitists, different than all of us, et cetera, let's call it what it is. anti-semitic, anti-jewish and hateful. under line, period. >> joining me now in the studio, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard, and nbc news senior reporter ben collins. good to see you both in person. you covered donald trump for years and there on the campaign trail as i was as he has done these sorts of things. bring us up to speed, the context, donald trump and what he said. >> the thing that we could agree with the folks that hear the comments are those who take these as head nods and dog whistles. it is overt anti-semitism. but if you go back to 2018, speaking at the white house, a

roomful of jewish american and refer to israel as quote your country and in 2019 talking about the way in which jewish american voters vote and said quote any jewish people who would vote for a democrat, i think it shows a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty. and i got to go back to 2018 again here, it was the moment there, in that week before the midterm elections in 2018, the tree of life synagogue shooting when this man went and shot and killed 11 people at the synagogue there. and days later, it was donald trump who suggested that, quote, he wouldn't be surprised if george soros was funding the caravan coming from central america. now, all of these are connected there. and the folks that follow this, and are true anti-semitic, they understand what this means. >> let's also, there's some nuance here, but any american jew will tell you that support for israel does not go hand in hand with being jewish. there is complicated feelings about the state of israel among a lot of american jews. it doesn't mean that you're a bad jew if you're not rah-rah ra

in the state of israel. and link these two, it is not that donald trump is speaking to american jews, he is speaking to the evangelical community and who wants to answer that question. what is he saying? >> so look, at the end of the day, i think we want to talk about this, too, in 2018, the last midterms, the last time we had midterms, that synagogue shooting happened, and that guy wasn't just, you know, he didn't couch this entirely in anti-semitism. it was about the great replacement theory. i don't know if you remember, this but he was constantly posting about how people are coming over our border and a star of david on one of the caravan vehicles that we saw on gab, remember gab, and gab is one of those alternative twitters social media networks, that doug mastriano donated to, to get his message out to run for governor. this has seeped so deeply into republican talking points it is

sort of indistinguishable. it is the kabal to them, and that can mean -- >> we can get to this in a moment but is it just the extremists who are hearing this? or is it bleeding into more mainstream thoughts? >> it's bleeding into mainstream thoughts in the way in which marjorie taylor green just one week ago was at donald trump's rally helping to talk about the great replacement theory. there is the belief or the claim i should say that jewish individuals are manipulating here in order to essentially depress white america. when, and i think you cannot remove that from earlier this year, when i was at c-pack in florida, and marjorie taylor green was across the street speaking at a white nationalist event with nazi sympathizers and then the next day comes to c-pack and i asked matt schlepp why she is allowed here and we

do not want to censor voice, free speech and at the same time, what the republican party and donald trump is doing here is giving, while they may not be overtly the ones yelling this from the mountain top, they are opening up t-up to those individuals who are making these claims, and believing there should not be a jewish people. >> so mastriano is one of those, you talked about a seconds ago, jonathan greenblat referenced him running for govern ner pennsylvania and used this language perceived as coded language calling his opponents, josh shapiro, privileged, exclusive, elite and has disdain for people like us and has a real grudge against the roman catholic church. for anybody that doesn't know what those terms are rooted in, can you explain why that is a dog whistle? >> in these spaces, it goes way beyond the current moment as we know. there are ways to try to

identify without saying, in the past couple of weeks -- >> this goes back centuries. >> literally centuries. in the past couple of weeks the mask has come off. kanye west has talking about, not specifically the jews but in media, too controlling and we had a conversation about this. and that's where you have constantly happening in these forums and spaces that doug mastriano is in. >> pointing out that the jews run everything and being a part of mainstream thought, so when you're complaining to say that, it is not out of the norm. >> that's exactly right. and that's, by the way kanye west today was on social media. >> we will talk about this in the next hour. that's a tease. i want to go back really quickly, no time left but explain the evangelical side of this. >> and i'm not one to say donald trump is an anti-semite, there are those in his family who are jewish and at the same time there are evangelical christians that are of the strong belief

that it shouldn't be a separation of church and state and overtly advocated in the last several months a christian nationalism in the united states. >> in support of israel. >> and that's where you start to understand here the complications and the layers and the nuance of this here, and the numbers and types of people that can be reach bid that one specific message, and there are many types of people with many different motives. >> such a complicated topic. we could do a whole hour. ben collins, vaughn hillyard, thanks for coming and talking to me. still ahead, it keeps getting worse in the u.k. what prime minister liz truss's new finance minister is doing to reverse, to reverse her policy and she has been barely there a month.

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one, it kpl includes almost a complete reversal of almost all controversial tax measures which had originally caused quite a bit of chaos in the u.k. stock exchange and sent the pound plummeting to historic lows. this is the third economic walk-back the government has been forced to make in less than six weeks, after prime minister liz truss took office. all were part of a plan to turbocharge economic growth, which was a key part of truss's leadership campaign. joining we now is sky news anchor, good to see you, she has been there for six weeks and introduced a bunch of tax cuts, walked back some of them and introduced more and walked back more of them. tell us what is happening and how is the conservative party reacting? >> everyone has been in total and utter display over the last six weeks. i think the headline today is the scale of the u-turn that her

new finance minister in place for three days has delivered. when she asked him to step in three days ago, she probably didn't know the extent of what was announced today but she could do nothing about it. there is no way she could survive firing another finance minister, so she just had to sit there, behind him in parliament, and striking quite an embarrassed and glum figure, as he ripped up everything that she stood for, and we're in this extraordinary position, katy, where a, so early in a prime minister's time, they are incredibly weak but b, the finance minister after three days is perhaps the most powerful person in the country, and the party are dismayed not the least because of the polls tonight, labor 56%, and the conservatives 20%, and an astonishing deficit. >> the conservative party the

tories as the gentleman has the protest sign behind you. a live stream in the u.k., the head of lettuce, who will last longer this head of lettuce or liz truss. is there talk that the u.k. is going to find itself with yet another prime minister by the end of the year? >> there definitely is. there is talk about surviving longer than the prime minister. and four finance ministers in the same time, incredibly embarrassing and liz truss is at the mercy of the markets and her own mps. the market, a fractional reprieve, the pound was up 1.7% against the u.s. dollar. long end gilt yields, government bond yields did fall, quite significantly for one day but still above where they were when she came to office. she is very much at the mercy of her own mps.

that happened sometime many years into her partnership, when the prime minister decides, maybe they should retire or the mps get a little more powerful and it never happened this early in a premiership. they of course are looking at the polls and i think the debate for those mps is not so much if they should remove her but when is most palatable, and least uncomfortable for their party given that they had only just removed her predecessor earlier this summer in boris johnson. >> lots of tumult in her closest ally, and six weeks ago they had a queen and boris johnson and now they have a new prime minister and maybe someone else soon. what the d.o.j. is asking the 11th circuit court of appeals, now.

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about this while we wait. the justice department wants to end the special master review of documents seized at marginal. in a 53-page brief, the d.o.j. asked a federal appeals court to not only vacate judge cannon's order, they want the 11th circuit to completely throw out donald trump's legal challenge. the court ruled in favor of the department of justice last month allowing the department to resume their review and use of classified materials, and they blocked trump's legal time viewing those documents citing concerns for national security. and joining me is the attorneys in law podcast, joyce vance, joyce, as you know is also an msnbc legal analyst. joyce, it's not just that the 11th circuit sided with the d.o.j. on the classified documents and that review. the supreme court sided with d.o.j. as well, when it refused to vacate the 11th circuit's order so am i wrong to believe

that the d.o.j. has a feeling of, that the law and the rules are on their side and they might get the 11th circuit to throw out the special master all together? >> i think that's fair. if you're the d.o.j., you're feeling very optimistic about this case. but procedurally, it's complicated enough to be a third year law student's final exam. and in a nutshell, what is happening here is that d.o.j. tried to take the most important restriction on their freedom of activity off the table first. so that is why they moved to stay only the part of judge cannon's order that involved the classified documents. now they've come back and they're trying to clean up the entire exercise, trying to get the 11th circuit to rule that judge cannon was wrong to ever exercise any form of jurisdiction in this matter whatsoever. after all, this happened because d.o.j. executed a search warrant, and then another federal judge had authorized on

a finding of probable cause, and it is extremely unusual to see the kind of civil action the former president filed here, a very pronounced effort to interrupt the criminal investigation. >> in this space, the d.o.j. and the government have had a few win, not just from the appellate courts but also with the supreme court. the supreme court handed over documents to congress that donald trump refused to give them. they said that donald trump had to do so. the supreme court said no, the 11th circuit was right by saying they weren't going to look at it regarding these classified documents and the special master review. is this about, and i don't know if this is the right term for it, because i feel like chuck rosenberg has told me that there is precedent in this space that is not right, but what is d.o.j. trying to do here? >> well, i think precedent actually is something the d.o.j. has to consider. they have to look at this case as yes, just this case, but they also have to think about what

sort of legal precedent they're setting for the future. and something that you don't want to do, if you're d.o.j., is to open up alternative pathways for a well-funded defendant to try to find ways to meet that criminal investigation, and to keep them from moving forward. you know, donald trump is famous for trying to delay legal proceedings, for trying to interrupt proceedings, and for trying to set himself up above the law. that is exactly what we're seeing happen here. so it's very important to d.o.j. to shut this off, and katy, in some ways, the most remarkable thing about this entire proceeding is to watch it and to be concerned about the outcome. because legally, nothing trump is doing here is warranted. we shouldn't be surprised by the fact that it took the supreme court only 35 words to dismiss trump's appeal. or surprised by the 11th circuit's prompt action. what is concerning to me is that we are all holding our breath to see if the courts will continue

to stand for the rule of law here. >> for a short time when i was younger, i thought i wanted to be a lawyer and even younger, i wanted to be a supreme court justice and i got the better thing where i have a show and crash course in all sorts of different topics including the law and federal investigations and the rest of the whole wide world that we live in. joyce vance, thank you very much. appreciate it. in a short time, president biden will talk about student loan forgiveness and the program, we will bring those remark live when they happen. full of important information you need to know. y happen full of important information you need to know what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things.

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