not uses this as an issue. obviously it's in the conversation. the january 6th committee brought it up with hearings. the case democracy is under threat much more so than people actually realize. the ad data, democrats aren't spending much in what's address these issues. civil rights, democracy, and such. one of the reason, it would seem distant and off key for voters struggling to just afford the price of groceries. not trying to diminish the threat itself, but the worry among democrats spend a lot of time saying this theoretical threat is out there, my opponent, one member of congress, could contribute to it, if he or she is elected, you risk having voters say, i appreciate that, but i need to afford bacon for my family or i node to get milk or i need a gallon of gas under $4. you don't want to seem out of

touch. >> you were right. that was kind of a buzz kill. politico sam stein, thank you for the great polling information. we will speak to you again soon. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning. stick around for "morning joe," which starts right now. a senator who has never run anything at all, but his mouth. the senator obviously resorting to lying, cheating and trying to steal. >> senator, how gullible to you really think florida voters are? repeating yourself again. we've seen this show before. socialist, socialist, crazy, marxist, silly -- >> when one would you prefer? >> on your list for talking points. >> look, the senator can play -- national security expert all he wants. i know he needs that for his next presidential run. >> yeah. i mean i don't know what you

mean playing national security, vice chairman of the intelligence committee and previous chairman. it's actually my job. >> some of the highlights from last night's fiery senate debate in florida, as marco rubio's democratic challenger val demings went on the attack. we're going to play more from the debate and congresswoman demings will be our guest this morning. plus -- a special master in the trump documents case has a question for donald trump and his legal team. "where's the beef?" that is a direct quote. >> he literally said that. >> i know. the judge responding to a recent request from the former president. also positive new evidence that undermines trump's claim that none of the material seized from mar-a-lago was classified. more on the audio that proves trump knew letters to north korea were top secret.

a big story we're covering. >> you mean because he said, hey, bob, those are really top secret. don't tell anybody. >> yeah. and the probe and origins of the russia investigation. is this finally the end for the investigation that trump and his supporters claimed would uncover a sweeping conspiracy against him? a lot to get to this morning. >> whew! >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 19th. >> it is. and he's got this shine about him. just -- >> put together. >> we just roll into the studio. it's -- >> yankees. what about the yankees? a big win yesterday. >> well, a huge win last night against the guardians. 5-1 was the final score as predicted on this show yesterday. nasty nester cortez. big game pitcher, stepped up and did the job. got on the board early. yankees did. three-run home from stanton and judge hit one out later.

you see the last part of the game rocking the baby. a theme last night. remember the guardians here hit a couple home runs a couple games ago, taunting yankees with rock the baby. fans let him know they didn't like that and took it out in the game last now and now officially, joe, become america's team because we go into houston for game one of the alcs to take on the cheating astros. listen, uphill climb. hall of fame talent. they've got verlander pitching tonight, and when you put that together with unapologetic, rampant, systematic cheating, boy that is a heck of a -- >> gee. wow. >> and wheeled into the emergency room. yeah.

-- >> we've lost joe and meek mics for a second. a brief celebration on the field last night, because they got to hop on a plane and they did a couple hours after the game to get to houston, and i think we have joe and mika back. guys, thru? >> yeah. just -- in the middle of telling a story. i mean, i never tell a story, and i -- >> beingsensored. >> i don't know why. yankees now, they're america's team. after reagan got shot, wheeled into the emergency room. he looked up at the doctors and he said, i hope you're republicans. he said, mr. president, today we're all republicans. well, today -- >> there you go. >> we're all yankees' fans, and what about, i don't know. these phillies. may be looking like a team of destiny. you know, we had kyle schwarber last year but he was too good. so the red sox decided not to re-sign him. we're like we don't want any of that around boston.

another thing going against him. not only he was good. everybody loved him. the fans loved him. they loved him inside the locker room. why in the world would boston want to keep that guy? well, last night against the phillies, schwarber doing what he does in october. absolutely crushing the baseball, and the phillies, my god. there's harper. the phillies -- this is a team that beat the cardinals. then -- i think -- beat the braves, and now going into san diego and there's schwarber taking charge. >> yeah. 488 feet last night, schwarber. just absolute bomb. you that you stunned look on bryce harper face in the dugout as he watched it fly into the upper deck. couldn't believe how hard he hit it. you're right, joe. one of these teams seen over history. the phillies team.

didn't think about them a lot in the regular season. finished third place because braves and mets so good both winning more than 100 games and quietly sneak their way into the playoffs and on a run winning game one of nlcs in san diego. an incredibly pitched game. gave up one hit and a feel one of those team makes an incredible run, maybe all the way to the world series. >> yeah. >> get to our top story this morning. it is bad news for donald trump saying the quiet part out loud, but at this point, i think it's the doj that actually hears the quiet part out loud, instead's desensitized republicans. donald trump has claimed since the fbi search of mar-a-lago that none of the material seized was sensitive. not only is that untrue, but according to an excerpt from a new audio book, former president donald trump indicated during a january 2020 interview with bob

woodward that he knew letters from north korean leader kim jong-un were classified. >> top secret! >> uh-huh. and appeared to acknowledge they were so secret that he should not be sharing them. according to the "washington post," after urging woodward to treat them with respect, trump warned in an interview, and said, don't say i gave them to you. okay? but i'll let you see them, trump added. i don't want you to have them all. these are his quotes. a month later in january of 2020, woodward pressed trump in a phone call to let him also see the letters that trump wrote to kim. >> here are the words. "oh. those are so top secret." >> oh, dear. >> the classification actually fbi and doj had been saying. he had top secret material, mika. and they're like, oh, no, no,

no, no, no, but donald trump tells woodward they're so top secret. >> bring in intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. ken, does this move the meter at all especially in the eyes of doj looking into whether he was obstructing justice and other things? >> mika, you have to believe that it does, because, you know, this whole question of intent is looming over this entire investigation, and here is -- here is evidence in donald trump's own mouth including this new designation of "so top secret." not one generally known, but -- that you know, he knew this stuff was extremely sensitive. now, it's not the letters with -- with the north korean letter that the government is all that worried about. those in theory wouldn't betray, really, any sources or methods. classified as a matter of course. you know, sensitive correspondence between two

leaders, but the other stuff we don't know about that could have profound implications and treating the letters this way, then what was he doing with leader profile of the french president based on highly classified collection, or other kinds of information that really, really could put the national security in danger. so absolutely. this is going to be a really tough thing for the trump team to overcome. now, trump could still make the claim. this conversation happened in 2019. he can still make the claim and he's been making it, except not in court, that he somehow declassified this information using his powers as ultimate declassification authority, but there is absolutely no evidence that that happened. that one we've talked to who worked in the trump administration believes that happened and trump lawyers have never made that claim in court, presumably because they have no evidence to back it up. >> almost everyone including trump's former attorney general, national security adviser latched off the idea he can wave his hand and declassify those.

speaking of those documents, the special master poed a question, throwback to a 1980's wendy's commercial asking, "where's the beef?" the question posed to former president trump's attorney by the special master during a phone conference yesterday. special master judge raymond dearie claiming certainly documents seized from mar-a-lago are privileged, requesting for information from trump's attorneys to back up that assumption and encouraged them sew say why they should be shielded to when the former president unlawfully kept classified records at mar-a-lago and obstructed the government's repeated attempts to get them back. so, you know, this is so fascinating to watch this special master work, ken. remember, he was, judge dearie was on the trump team's list and agreed to that this would be the guy, and, boy, he's not getting from him what he thought he might get.

>> no, indeed. we've all been puzzling why they put him on the list. the only plausible theory that he was once on the fisa court and believes he may have reviewed some of the applications for a warrant during the trump russia investigation where the fbi made misrepresentations. so the trump team thought he may be more skeptical than other jumps of the u.s. government, but turns out that judge dearie is a member of team reality, and he just is acting like a federal judge would act and demanding that the lawyers back up their assertions, and make timely applications, and he's dissatisfied with the pace of the trump team's submissions, because it's very clear that -- clear a lot of people -- this whole exercise by the trump people is a matter to delay things. let's not forget the justice department is appealing this whole process and trying to get an expedited ruling from the 11th circuit that would put judge dearie out of business and make this whole thing go away.

even more important than that, they've got the classified documents. they're proceeding with their investigation. they're interviewing important witnesses, and there's no sign, really, that this process is impeding the fbi and the justice department. >> ken, one more for you. a federal jury has acquitted a russian think tank analyst on four counts of lying to the fbi about his role in the creation of a discredited dossier about former president donald trump. prosecutors alleged this 44-year-old provided false information to agents trying to dignify details in the unsubstantiated dossier details trump's alleged ties to russia. this is expected to be the final case stemming from special counsel john durham's three-year probe into origins of the fbi's investigation into allegations -- >> this is -- we have heard. >> -- tied between trump.

>> we've heard from trump and his hacks in the media durham was going to uncover the great, the great deep state conspiracy against donald trump. of course, you saw everybody lie. you saw durham, maybe it was about a year ago. i can't remember exactly. durham puts out -- a pleading that looks like literally drafted by a 6-year-old. never seen anything so -- so -- so mangled. never seen any court -- mika, you remember, i was reading it. you don't sit around just scanning over documents. i'm a generalist, for god's sake, but i was reading it for a day. called every legal expert i knew. i said, i don't get this document. looks like they're just trying to create headlines here. there's nothing here. and sure enough -- >> yeah. >> hacks. it is true. >> hmm. >> it's true. harrison ford, all of it's true. it's true! it's true! hillary -- hillary -- she -- she

bugged trump's phone. it's true. there's a deep state conspiracy. no it wasn't. it's just such horrible bad things. friday to monday they lied repeatedly about what duram's pleading said. lied repeatedly. and durham, he's -- this -- this guy's like the 1962 mets. this may be the worst -- like -- investigation in the, in the history of the federal government. it's hard to lose if you've got power of the federal government behind you, but he keeps doing it. and talk about that, ken, but also, this is a good time to stop. we have three stories, all three of them -- >> no. >> -- breaking strong against donald trump. all three of them proving that jumps and juries are on, as you said, keen reality. think about it. i mean, trump always seems to lose in court.

65 cases going into federal court and doing their scam lies, that they can do on the internet. do with really stupid people. these conspiracy series about stealing the election. 65 courts shut them down including the united states supreme court. even thomas and alito, listen, we can take the case based on merits but it's not going to change the outcome of the election. right? and then the special master, time and again. you have the 11th circuit coming out last week shutting, you know -- shutting down the federal judge. you've got the united states supreme court doing the same thing over the past six months, claims of executive privilege by trump. thrown out by the united states supreme court. i could go, literally, could go on and on the next 15 minutes about all the spurious claims that donald trump's made, and

his judges that he appointed are even shutting down almost all of these claims. >> ken? >> yeah, joe. and you are absolutely right. the federal government does not lose many of the trials when it chooses to take a case to trial. it wins the vast majority of them, and this prosecutor, john durham. special counsel, now 0-2 in trials. two charged. two acquitted. he tried this case himself. a spectacular crackup and raises a lot of questions about john durham's past work. remember, he was hired by the obama investigation to investigate when the cia broke the law, when it tortured prisoners and investigated for years and brought no charges then fought vigorously to keep all his information secret. back then when i talk to people about him, he generally had a good reputation as a solid,

non-partisan prosecutor, but in this case, judges have found that he tried to insert spurious material into these cases to try to create this, this idea that there was this conspiracy by the fbi to act improperly, to set up donald trump. none of it flew. in fact, before this venchencho trial started, threw out what he tried to put before the jury. became a very narrow trial whether venchencho lied and jury took a day, said, why are we here? acquitted him, key source for the dossier, and the dossier, look. it's well known. >> now that the dossier played very little role in the fbi's investigation. it was a spurious document full of gossip and innuendo and the fbi treated it like that fairly quickly after they learned that that's what it was about. but john durham, wow. i mean, he's going to write a report now, and he's going to

submit it to merrick garland, the attorney general will decide whether to make it public. but his effort to try to prove that there was some improper conspiracy by the fbi to frame donald trump has collapsed spectacularly. >> all right. nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, thank you so much. willie you know, we said here the first day that we heard reports about the steele dossier. sounded like, like a hoax. sounded bogus. but -- that's -- that was, what? five years ago? i mean, so long ago. and you look at all of the things that trump and barr and durham and everybody else had thrown up against the wall and, my god, especially the lies that were spread by reputable newspapers on the right talking

about how hillary clinton really did bug trump's phones? that it was some -- some conspiracy -- it's all a lie! and it was proven to about lie and durham's entire investigation has proven to be just a futile exercise to prove one of donald trump's dumbest conspiracy theories yet. >> yeah. another win of donald trump. this whole thing launched, remember, more than three years ago. three years of this investigation resulting in just about nothing. one low-level guilty plea from an fbi official. but, yeah. this is longer by twice i think as the mueller investigation, and put out there to put smoke around the mueller report to say, let's investigate the investigators. check out this steele dust, as ken just said, was bogus. it was bogus and the fbi, the point for them to look at it try to corroborate it. couldn't do it. now john durham set out, as ken

says, well, a legitimate guy with an, an experienced guy to give legitimacy to donald trump's whim around all this and yielded absolutely nothing, one more example, mika, about a lawyer, that got involved with donald trump. >> right. >> not only embarrassed himself, but in the end, lost. if you're an attorney and representing donald trump -- >> a losing proposition. >> a few things will happen. three things. one, get stiffed. right? he's not going to pay your bill. >> going to get spilled out. >> get the money up front. and secondly, your reputation's going to be shot. he'll have, maybe have him sign a document, like the poor women. >> christina bobb. signed a document now she's being investigated by the fbi because she signed a document that was a lie. >> why would you sign that? >> that happens. all lawyers, puts them in terrible positions to lie so he doesn't have to lie directly to the government. third thing, after it's all over, if you're not thrown in

jail or in bankrupt court you lose! it's happening again. the tally's incredible. 65 federal cases. 65 federal cases on these election lies, on conspiracy theorys that donald trump tried to push out there. 0-65. >> uh-huh. >> the supreme court. his supreme court as he likes to say, has shut him down time and time again. not only on conspiracy theories, shut him down on bogus claims for executive privilege. shutting him down on bogus claims on these top secret materials. they're shutting him down on what the special master can and can't do. they're shuts him down time and time again and, again, it's not like the ghost of earl warren. it's clarence thomas. it's alito. it's kavanaugh. i mean, it's -- it's the most conservative justices saying, this is bogus. get this out of here.

>> right out there for you, lawyers across america. for republicans, it might be a little harder to understand because you can sometimes win elections in a roiling hate and all the things trump does, but if you're a lawyer, and you choose to represent donald trump, those three things are going to happen to you. it's all in front of you for you to see. still ahead on "morning joe," play for you the key debate moments between senator marco rubio and congresswoman val demings in florida. later, we'll be joined by congresswoman demings herself. plus, democratic nominee for governor of georgia stacey abrams is our guest this morning after record-setting early voting got under way in her state yesterday. also ahead, the latest on the war in ukraine as a russian commander admits the situation in kherson, the kherson region is very, very difficult. >> and breaking news from the bbc before we got on. they are now starting to leave

the area. >> take look at where the fighting stands now. and new reporting on a new legal fight over thousands of documents relating to the assassination of jfk. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back with all that. when our daughter and her kids moved in with us... our bargain detergent couldn't keep up. turns out it's mostly water. so, we switched back to tide. one wash, stains are gone. [daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get

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way. >> that's not true. i know the senator -- look, i'm really disappointed in you, marco rubio, because i don't -- i think there was a time when you did not lie in order to win. i don't know what happened to you. you know that is not true. my first term in the united states house i passed legislation to help law enforcement officers with mental health programs. your first time you voted to turn medicare into, basically abolish it. >> you've done nothing -- nothing -- to help address gun violence and get dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people. florida, after parkland, after you made promises that you had no intentions on keeping to the parents of parkland, florida passed legislation raising the age to have an assault weapon -- >> our prime marry responsibility is the safety of

floridians, and, senator, 24 years in elected office and you have not yet risen to that occasion! >> the truth of the matter is end of the day americans have a second amendment right to protect themselves. they have -- and these killers out there, they're intent on killing as they are they found multiple ways to get ahod of weapons and cause mass destruction. >> every bill i've ever sponsored on abortion and voted for has exceptions. every one of them does. >> extremist on abortion is congresswoman demings who supports no restrictions or limitations of any kind. >> we no the senator supports no exceptions. he can make his mouth say anything today. he's good at that, by the way. what day is it and what is marco rubio saying? i've said time and time again and he knows it that i support a woman's right to choose up to the time of liability. >> guys, we focus so much on georgia and arizona and pennsylvania and all of those tight races that are going to

swing the senate. this florida race oddly has gone a little under the radar but clear again last night marco rubio leading in the polls has a fight on his hands and why congresswoman demings was on the short list to become joe biden's vice president. >> joining us now, nbc news seen yell political report other mark caputo and former chief of staff to the dccc senior aide to hillary clinton and joe biden's campaigns. joe watched the full debate last night, and you really could see the experience that val demings has as a police chief. >> right. >> whose dealt with a lot of characters that might frustrate her. she really had her -- she had her facts ready, but also ready to confront him with some of the kinds of things the republican party has done of late in order to win. >> you know, we're going to go, to mark caputo in a second.

he's obviously a rate reporter that covers florida. so i'm going to say this myself, and provide sort of the analysis of what i saw last night. marco rubio most likely will win. it could be a tight race. we'll see how it goes. florida has been trending republican obviously. strongly in 2020. but val demings did a very good job last night. i've got to say, and this is where i wish i could ask mark caputo this but he's a reporter and can't really answer it. getting a lot of phone calls people seeing the debate saying, this marco rubio. everybody i talked to said something happened to him in 2016. like donald trump happened to him. got into his head. >> uh-huh. >> and he just never recovered.

he seem off balance last night. he would have pad answers. >> frustrated little boy. >> the second amendment rights. people have second -- if -- if -- if you take guns away from people only criminals -- just these pad answers you would hear somebody in a middle school debate make where they were pretending to be in a senate debate. seemed shrill, seemed sweaty. i just don't know that he ever recovered from donald trump in 2016 beating him as badly as he did in florida. i would say, one other thing, too. marco rubio once seen as future of the republican party. a "time" magazine cover talking about him being the future of the republican party. and what i saw last night was just a shadow of that guy. it was -- it was, to me it was

really jarring how simple, how softmoric those answers were. i don't think he's always been that way. maybe people were scream at me on twitter, yak, yak, yak, yaks. that's my opinion. go to the reporter, mark caputo. thanks for being with us. a fiery debate last night. break down, what was the news out of it? >> val demings came to take marco rubio to the woodshed and she did. what you said before, it isn't enough. look at voter registration trends and prior election results as well as strength of the republican party here, it is still going to be a tough climb for val demings, but if a democrat's going to win state-wide this year in florida, it's probably going to be her, however, again, this is a really

tough environment for democrats to win in, in this state. one of the things, not to fault debate moderators too much. it's really the forum and format of our debates nowadays, they really actually started to debate. almost news in and of itself now in debates. >> exactly. >> too often topic tyrannies moderate hear to hustle people along. actually winds up being a joint interview with a moderator winding up suppressing a debate when it breaks out, we got to move on. 30 seconds, 60 seconds. you saw that exchange for guns and abortion, and i think regardless whom you support or who you thought won, it was a pretty good exchange, and "if" that's an if, val demings doesn't win this year, what you saw and read on twitter and social media, democrats in this state were finally excited again about a candidate. like, wow. >> yeah. >> so if she doesn't make tay

it across the finish line this year i still think val demings will remain in the politics in future elections. >> the debate moderator and format was very effective. allowed for a conversation, interaction and eastern debate between two candidates and other should take note how that was done. done really well. your takeaways? >> i completely agree with joe. a time marco rubio was sort of seen as a charismatic moderate republican who would kind of work with both sides and what you saw last night i think from him is somebody who probably feels still very damaged from the 2016 primary. presidential primary. and is just not quite rising to the occasion he once did on the national stage. also you saw someone who did her debate prep homework. that is val demings. she knew exactly what marco rubio's record was. some republicans try to come out and say, oh, you know, i am not really for a full abortion ban.

i'm going to try to sort of take this moderate stance. she made it clear you cannot have it both ways. what we're starting to see from some of these republicans so core pro-life and run on it multiple campaign cycles trying to backtrack because they know how important it is to voters. kudos to cal demings. if want to push back against what the supreme court did and make roe or make reproductive rights codify that into federal law you've got to elect democrats and made it clear somebody like marco rubio will not be on the side of women. dan outstanding job. i agree with mark. this is florida's becoming more and more red but if somebody can win the race against marco rubio it's val demings. >> all right. we're going to have val demings

top of the hour to talk about last night's debate and the race moving forward. mark, also new reporting out moments ago about the nation's largest online source on the jfk assassination, now suing the biden administration to release the final 16,000 records related to the murder. tell us about this development. >> yeah. pretty fascinating. you guys talked about the deep state earlier. if there's really a deep state for jfk. serious. jfk case really exemplifies it. right? because we've, you know, we've what? waited almost 60 years since the assassination of jfk and still don't have all the records. in 1992 congress passed the jfk records act which said that in 2017 all the records should finally be released. that is, the entire federal government should gather all assassination records related to jfk and disseminate all to the public by 2017. trump, always talks about the

deep state went along and delayed it, left it to biden. last year in october biden supposed to reless them per the jfk records act 1992 and delayed it until december 15th this year. in that times foundation, large online source of information regarding the jfk records. if you go on their website you can find any record possible that's available. they determined, look, there are enough loophole, enough off ramps in biden's memo to allow the national security state, mainly the cia, to a degree the fbi, to continue hiding records. one of the things the lawsuit filed in san francisco federal court lays out is, multiple instances of documents that have been redacted should, have beent and after the cia investigation of bay of pigs in cuba. a lot of cuba and miami based in

there. there's information related to various cia case officers who had contact with the accused shooter, the likely shooter, one of the shooters, lee harvey oswald. that information should have been released. it's not. case officers with the cia. one a miami chief of station, also was running an exile group -- >> let me ask you this question before we let you go. so what are the operating theories for the people who know them the most about this case? >> right. >> on what the government is hiding? why the government won't release all the information? >> they don't know. literally they say, we quote a few people saying what is the government hiding? now, the people i've spoken to, there's a lot of theories as to what happened. they think there were rogue cia case officers who recruited lee harvey oswald into a conspiracy

or set him up to a degree, and were complicit to one degree or another in jfk's assassination. and that the cia and the national security is so embarrassed they basically don't want it out there. excuses for hides these records doesn't matter. this is over 60 years ago, guys. >> i always remember lee harvey oswald saying, i'm a patsy. >> yeah. >> and then -- then, of course, again, the part that's just never made any sense. jack ruby, like, guns him down, kills him before he can talk? my god. they need to release -- i'm not a conspiracy theorist, but as you say, this stuff doesn't add up. i always tell my kids. when something doesn't make sense it doesn't make -- there's a reason. >> yeah. >> dig deeper. so this is fascinating. >> thank you very much. >> and the decision, mark when

do we get this information? >> a good question. supposed to be december 15th. who knows? again, this happened 60 years ago. coming up -- thanks mark -- former president obama has advice for democrats ahead of midterms. don't be a buzz kill. >> what you tell me all the time. >> no, no. democrats. don't -- be -- a -- buzz kill. play for you his comments on that and what he said about cancel culture. plus republican governor's arkansas joins us about a big conference kicking off today for conservatives. "morning joe" is coming right back. ba ck.

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so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities. ™ add watch the republicans. now, for this election they want everything to be focused on three issues -- inflation, crime and pretending they didn't hear that thing trump just said. ads emphasizing these issues's

some subtle, but louisiana senator john kennedy decided that subtle is not his style. >> violent crime is surging in louisiana. woke leaders blame the police. i blame the criminals. a mom should not have the to look over her shoulder when she's pumping gas. i voted against the early release of violent criminals and i opposed defunding the police. look, if you hate could bes just because they're cops, the next time you get in trouble, call a crack head. i approve this message. >> okay. that's -- that's quite a tag. quite a tag! call a crack head. put that one on a bumper sticker, huh? >> do it. conservative leaders are going to gather in arkansas for an event aimed at finding real solutions to the nation's problems. the america leads summit is hosted by arkansas governor asa

hutchinson with a keynote address by former secretary of state condoleezza rice. >> and governor hutchinson joins us now. asa, always great talking to you. thank you so much. these days, when i hear conservative summit, i flinch, because, you know, my idea, i think kind of like yours. my idea of a conservative, somebody who follows, you know, burke, russell kirk, ronald range, margaret thatcher. we haven't seen a lot of that in some of these summits, but it looks like your summit's going to be different. tell us about it. >> well it is going to be different. it's importantly weeks out from the election that the candidates, that the public focus upon ideas that's going to help america. and so i think we ought to talk about problem-solving and not just simply creating chaos, and there's real issues that we face from china overseas to russia,

to saudi arabia. we're going to be talking about those at the idea summit today. we're going to have great education panel that's going to have governor doug ducey from arizona. betsy devos, former secretary, and talk about investing in middle america. so steve case, we're going to have thomas stewart walton, who engages in entrepreneurial leadership and philanthropy that helps middle america in terms of education and growth and jobs, and a lot is happening and we're excited about ideas and what it means for our future. >> exciting what you're saying, talking about ideas. you're talking about reform and changes. i talked about burke before. a lot of people running around with radical ideas, you know, in the '60s and '70s, conservatives that actually defended

institutions and instead of tearing down institutions they wanted to talk about how to reform institutions. again, going back to edmund burke he said a mob can tear down in hour what's it takes a civilization a century to build. so talk about that. i don't want to sound like bush 41, but i love the guy. so i'll use the word. let's talk about that prudence in reform and not just trying to tear down institutions. >> well, absolutely. it's important that we have an optimistic view of america, and whenever we have that and the mold of ronald reagan, then it helps to bring people together, because we're united for the cause of freedom and you mentioned some great founding leaders and thought leaders. one of the principles of conservatism is the limited government. i think that's important to talk

about, because we don't want to get in the mold of conservatism that uses government to accomplish a social agenda all the time. and, you know, whereas we need to at least think through, is this the proper role of government? we need to talk about a strong foreign policy and america leads. again, ronald reagan, and the role of the private sector. why we have entrepreneurial leadership and investment, but it's based upon principle and ideas and optimism about our future. to me, that's a good conservative approach, and one that wins in america. >> governor, good morning. as joe says, talking like a pre-trump conservative talking about issues that are important to republicans and conservatives, or at least used to be. i'm wondering if you felt, have you spoken out from time to time against donald trump. you said his actions around january 6th and the election were disqualifying. a dereliction of duty, the way

he acted on that day and shouldn't be talking about him but talking about issues. we've wondered many times why other republicans don't take on donald trump at certain time. have you seen any political consequences for speaking out when you have? >> no. i mean, certainly it's important when i talk about unifying. you know if you're a republican leader, you need to bring in that part of the base that has been very loyal to donald trump. there's issues that they care about that i care about, but you've also got a fringe element that wants to tear down our democracy and they want to simply dwell upon the past. we've got to move beyond that. we can. what i see in the republican party and the conservative movement is a refocus on ideas. a refocus on a post-trump republican party that does move beyond that.

certainly he's done some great things in terms of his leadership on conservative principles supporting israel, but as i've said, what happened on january 6th puts it all in a different context, and what's happened in post-presidency, and so you're not going to hear that, the former president trump's name mentioned in this conference, hardly any i would suspect, because we're talking about ideas and not talking about personalities, and we're talking about, really, the important things that impact people at their breakfast table, but also the issues of america's leadership in this world. these are big challenges we face. we need to have good minds, conservative thought that addresses these in a positive way. >> you know, governor, there are a lot of republicans who are conservative who listen to you talk and have watched the way you've sort of behaved politically during the trump years and thought, that's the direction we ought to be going. there's some people who think

you should actually jump in and run for president in 2024. is that something you're thinking about? >> well, it has to be on your mind, because this election is three weeks away and then you shift. leadership has to involve 2024, but myself and there are leaders out there, we've got to focus on this election. it is too important what happens going in to the next two years of the biden administration. we need to have checks and balances, and so that's the focus. we'll see what the future holds for 2024. >> all right. arkansas governor asa hutchinson, thanks so much, asa. always great to have you here. really appreciate it, and good luck this weekend. you know, he's evidence in arkansas and, a deep red state, of a governor that has been more

determined to stick by some basic conservative principles. >> conservative principles, yeah. >> than be swept away by the madness of the past five, six years. also you look, talking to stacey abrams later. you also look, though to georgia, and you see that brian kemp and brad raffensperger are two republican leaders in a deep red state that crossed donald trump and, yes, i understand. doing their job. that's what -- >> doing their jobs. yeah. >> but, again -- >> i know. >> everybody else is not doing their job. so far from being election deniers with brad raffensbergor, a guy that actually recorded donald trump. may ultimately the reason why he's finally brought to justice for trying to steal an election, and you see that you can. >> right. >> do that. you can when your primaries. both of those men won their primaries by a large margin and

they're going to survive politically. again, i've been so disappointed, because i've always asked, why don't people stand up to leadership within the republican party? because you could get rewarded for it and -- oh, no, no, it's different now. no, it's not. these people have done it, survived politically and they're stronger for it. there's a reason by brian kemp is pulling ahead of herschel walker. in part because walker is too tied to donald trump and people are trying to sort through that. >> look at asa's group. america leads. watch it online. not talking about trump because they're talking about conservative ideas. easy to avoid trump because he's not about most of those ideas. >> not about ideas or ideology. not about burke or kirk or reagan or thatcher.

it's personality culture. still ahead joined by two democratic candidates in two mid-term races fresh off tough debates with their incumbent opponents. democratic nominee for u.s. senate in florida, congresswoman val demings will be with us in just a few moments. and as joe mentioned, the democratic nominee for governor of georgia, stacey abrams, will be our guest at the top of the third hour of "morning joe." we'll be right back. trelegy for copd. [coughing] ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on by... ♪ if you've been playing down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, it's a new day,... ♪ ...it's time to make a stand. start a new day with trelegy. ♪...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ no once-daily copd medicine... has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy.

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>> exactly. >> a nixon fan? not a whitmore fan? >> a big boost after the kidnapping threat. >> those peemter locked up. >> just threatening to kidnap the governor. >> anybody can say it. don't dough anything then -- >> they staked out her house in that kind of a plan. >> yeah, but didn't do anything. >> really? just because i'm thinking about thwarting democracy and meeting friends and talking about thwarting democracy and putting plans in action. >> look, they didn't do anything. that's the whole point of america. say what you want to say. >> feel it's like law and order is an eh issue. >> if you're going to kidnap, just don't do it. >> spitballing here. got any plots you can think about recently? >> we've all had thoughts like, oh, should go do this, but no one chubbily -- >> all of us? >> i'm sure all of us have. >> oh, my god!

just spitballing here. >> my god. he's talented. speaking with trump supporters in michigan. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday october 19th. >> willie, just spitballing here -- >> i mean, really? all this? >> it's -- it's -- saying -- >> yeah, yeah. i mean, people in jail, by the way, for the plot to kidnap gretchen whitmer. very real. listen, a good case study media silos. live in a different media bubble getting an entirely different version of events entirely different version of the news casting doubt on things like the attack on the capitol. casts out things like the plot to kidnap governor whitmer in michigan, very real but not if you listen to or watch certain media sources. >> i actually think a dramatic example of that are people who gave their kids five vaccine shots before they started pre-k.

five, six vaccinations before they were allowed to start school. you could talk about guys in the army and women of the army, like 18, 19 vaccinations. annexed, like, really tough vaccinations. and then you talk to them and they -- talked to friends. talk to former business partners. i talk -- i talk to everybody, and -- they -- they have a completely different world view that is completely isolated from fact. they argue things that are, that they picked up on the internet, and you're exactly right. they'll go, well, you know, joe, i just -- i don't really -- i don't watch news anymore, because you -- you just don't know what's true and what's -- i try to say, yeah, but you do go to websites that are run by chinese cults and you do get

facebook pages that people just make up whole cloth, and that's your new news source? as i say repeatedly to them, read the "wall street journal." like, the "wall street journal" news section. it's great reporters, and it's murdoch's newspaper. ah, i just don't know. i say, oh. so you think murdoch is involved in the deep state? that he's a left-wing socialist? just comes down to what the woman said. they just want to hear what they want to hear. they don't want to be bothered with the facts. they don't want to be bothered with the truth. they want to stay in a bubble. have people lie to them. they want to repeat those lies, and they want to be separated from fact. what do you do with that? a great question. i will tell you, i have calmly and patiently sat there and talked to them.

i've calmly and patiently sent email after email after email to them. not judgmentally. in love, because i love these people. and i will tell you. i've made about as much progress as i would make if i ran into the center of the philadelphia eagles defensive line. no progress at all. >> none. >> that's a key point. it's wilful. you and i are this conversation on and off the air. people we know and love, respect and love. in a conversation with them. stop for a second. do you really think that china sent ballots to arizona? do you think the cyber ninja should be in their seizing election materials? and going through them to look for traces of bamboo? they'll go, well, well, maybe not that. but -- then there's always a "but." they've heard something

somewhere. picked up a kernel but are smart enough to know the difference. a willfulness, like you said. something they want to believe. all they need one little bit of information to cling on to. leading up to right after the election i had a very, very smart person i know ask me why we weren't covering the italian satellite story, which is that a satellite, something in italy, something, something, a satellite manipulated dominion voting machines changing votes from trump to biden. what do you do with that when someone you know, love and respect looks you in the eye and asks you that in all sincerity, but that's where we are. >> kept hearing about it. the fact there were those two women in georgia. they said two women in georgia. and they -- they picked up suitcases of ballots, and, well -- you say, well -- hold on. let me check. google it. then you see the fact check across about ten different news

organizations that clearly show what happens, that clearly described what happens, and i just start forwarding it to them and they read it and they understand it it's a lie but what do they say? oh, you can't trust these people. you can't trust them. i mean, because there was a fact checker, pick a fact check from two years ago that was wrong. and so -- they'll stay very comfortable in their world of lies. >> yes. >> what is fascinating, though, and this is a development. there are people who are starting to pay for those lies. >> hmm. >> the two women that we've talked about here. i think we had them on the show here. they -- they're going to win lawsuits. they were lied about. they were slandered about. you look at what happened with the infowars guy. he's going to be chased the rest of his life to pay back lies that he told.

>> kanye -- now kanye west. >> or ye. >> going out talking about george floyd being on fentanyl. you know -- i guess people thought, willie, in the age of trump that they could say whatever they wanted to say. they could spread whatever lies they wanted to spread. they can spread whatever conspiracy theories they wanted to spread. and they could get away with it. guess what? they can't. because juries in connecticut are saying, you can't. juries in texas are going, no way. dominion voting machines. they have lawsuits against one media outlet after another media outlet after another media outlet who's worked overtime to destroy their lives and i know this because i know people that run elections in counties, and they have received threats for, for using dominion voting machines and they don't even use

dominion voting machines. like -- so -- >> right. >> this toxicity it comes with a price, and the price is not only to our democracy. it's coming to the people who are spreading the lies. it's seems that justice, willie, is finally being served. >> well, they've watched donald trump get away with all of it and watched it be effective for him anyway to ascend to heights of power. but turns out that's not transferable to everyone. if you go out and say defamatory things, repugnant things on a podcast or on tv, feels like cheap rhetoric, something to get numbers and ratings, but now turns out there is a cost and maybe deper people down the road. as you say, real world consequences. ruby freeman and shai moss, threatened fwop election workers in georgia. people came to their houses threatened them because of a video perpetuated online. it was nothing. two people who stepped up and

volunteered to help. talking on a podcast about sandy hook. those families grieving deaths of their sixth graders, first graders, excuse me, the 6-year-olds. they're chased all over the country. have to move. they have to -- it's real. so it feels cheap. it's a way to get numbers. a way to get ratings for the people who use this rhetoric but has real world consequences. as you say, the people who say those things have to face the music. >> real world consequences and i just want to urge people that are listening to these lies. understand, have some compassion for the victims. whether it's in georgia, whether it's a family. well, donald trump. the lies that he told about, about leaving a murderer. >> very painful for the people involved. >> the impact, not painful for me or my family. they know who aam, but painful

for the family who's been grieving for 20 years, and lori's husband actually writes the president of the united states and begs him to stop bringing pain to him, and his -- his family and her family. he continues doing that. we talk about the infowars guy. those lies. again, going after broken people. those -- those parents have to bury their 6-year-old children in a way, it strikes me, the most heinous thing in the world that could happen to parents and 6-year-olds and then their children's graves are urinated on and their families have to flee, because these conspiracy theories that our friends and our family members read and

think there are no consequences? they have the gravest of consequences. and -- the people -- there are people suffering, because rich, powerful, millionaires and billionaires from ivy league schools are trying to seize power by spreading conspiracy theories on the poorest people, the most broken people, those who are grieving the loss of their children. those who are grieving the loss of their daughters. those who just wanted to participate in american democracy and help out. it's -- it's -- you know what? you know what word that is? i got a word. it's deplorable. >> hmm. >> the word fits. it's deplorable. it's contemptible. it's unforgivable what they're doing to these people, and i will say anybody that's reading this, and spreading it on the

internet, you're guilty, too. >> so i will say that when the alex jones verdict came out it was landmark. news on many levels. it was news he was finally being brought to account, but the number played it a major international headline. it was something like $965 million, almost $1 billion. >> uh-huh. >> for these families and others involved who were connected with his lies that he lied about. and it's just interesting to note that many networks broke in. many networks stopped their coverage to cover that news, and then there was some networks that did not. >> networks that covered it the second verdict came down started talking about the steele dossier. didn't like the verdict, started talking about -- >> too close to home. >> the steele dossier with devin nunes. tells you what you need to know. let's bring in right now

professor of princeton university and msnbc contributor mike barnicle and the truth. it seems that truth is being defended in some corners. we talked ak one federal court after another federal court saying "no" to trump and his lawyers' lies, but also from the infowars guy to kanye to people that have slandered dominion voting. the people who slandered -- it seems they're actually, almost like gravity is returning. a sense of decency is returning, that actually words have consequences. >> i wish i could be as optimistic as you seem to be, joe, about gravity returning and common sense returning. i'm not. >> hmm. >> look, there is always been a separate universe in this country. a separate universe of voters,

separate universe of people who think vastly differently than ordinary people do. the infowars case, the jury in connecticut nearly $1 billion, mika just won'ted out. here's what i want to know and ask eddie glaude this. smarter than all of us. we do we the average american go for damage to our democracy finally in 2016 seems to have found a leader. that leader still at large today, still planning to return to the white house. where do we go to sue for damps and get rewarded, eddie, for what's happened to our country? >> i don't know where we go. i do know we have to defend our country, democracy. our values, norms, commitments. one of the consequences of these conspiracy theories. of course, people conspire.

why we have antitrust laws. conspire. we don't want to say to folks don't do that, but i believe conspiracy theories run as rampant as they do, it undermines, erodes the basis for us to engage in reasoned deliberation. the very fabric, very heart of democracy, our self-governing individuals, engaging in deliberation, debate about matters that affect them and the people they love, the communities they live in and if we can't engage in reasoned deliberation, because we all agree on the background conditions allowing us to disagree, then democracy is done. where do we go? we have to go to the trenches and defend a better way of life, seems to me. >> all right. in a moment we're going to bring in florida's democratic nominee for senate, congresswoman val demings, but first, here is some of the key exchanges she had with her opponent, senator marco rubio in last night's debate.

>> so a senator never run anything at all but his mouth. >> the senator obviously resorted to lying, cheating and trying to steal. >> senator, how gullible do you think florida voters are? >> senator, you're repeating yourself again. we've seen this show before. socialist, socialist, crazy, marxist, silly. >> which one is it? >> must be on your list for your talking points. look, the senate can play -- national security expert all he wants. i know he needs that for his next presidential run. >> yeah. i mean i don't know what you mean i'm vice chair of the intelligence committee, previous president, actually it's my job. >> no country in the world can tolerate, permit or afford 5,000 people a day arriving ot your border saying magic words and getting asylum. says there's nothing unusual

about it. this cannot continue. >> we are a nation of laws. i've enforced them for 27 years. despite what the senator wants you to believe, he's living in fantasyland. i've enforced them, and we need to make sure that men and women at borders have resources they need. i am a fan of boots on the ground. let's have more boots on the ground, but let's also hire more processors so that we can separate those who need to be arrested from those who are seeking asylum. we're a nation of laws, but we also, we have to enforce the law but also obey the law that says people in trouble can seek asylum in this country. >> congresswoman demings joins us now. congresswoman, what was your big takeaway from the debate last night? >> well, look, it's great to be with you this morning, and the big takeaway was marco rubio has

no clue about his primary responsibility to floridians and to the american people, and that is to protect the health, safety and well-being of the people. he is clearly concerned about his political future, and it was obvious in our debate last night. >> congresswoman demings, eddie glaude. congratulations on your debate last night. want to ask a direct question. you said to senator rubio over and over he was lying, wasn't telling the truth. you made a point of pointing out he was in some ways trading in falsities. was that deliberate on your part and were you trying to senate to other democrats we need to engrave they need to engrach in this kind of accounting of lies when they are told? >> you know, thank you so much for that question, and i was listening to your discussion just a few minutes ago. and we really do have to call it

out. right? when there are reality deniers who are the voters, just people in the community. you know, who have been inundated with untruths, okay. it's one thing. but when our leaders light marco rubio take center stage and think it's okay to have alternative facts, think it's okay to just lie, cheat, to try to steal elections. think it's okay to just ignore the evidence. the problem is that we have leaders now who think that it is okay, and we have to, we must, call them out and you're absolutely correct. it was deliberate. and very necessary. >> congresswoman, good morning for all the discussion last night about various issues like abortion and democracy. all, of course, worthy topics. if you look at polling, it is the economy, the economy, the economy that's most on voters' minds especially inflation. and with democrats in power in

the white house, the house and the senate, they do blame and hold responsible democrats for that. so what do you say to a florida voter who says, i just don't want to have a democrat run the state given the state of affairs? >> you know, it's incumbent upon us to notify, to inform florida voters who's actually doing something to address inflation. look, i'm the daughter of a maid and janitor. you all know that. marco rubio certainly cannot tell me what it's like to struggle, to make ends meet to stretch a dollar. when marco rubio had the opportunity to vote for legislation to help lower costs for floridians, lower cost of health care, lower cost of prescription drugs, lower, or cap the cost of insulin. hold the richest, largest corporations responsible and require that they have to pay their fair share, the only party that is doing that are the only

dmnd florida for the united states senate that is working hard to lower costs and help the american dream become a reality for everyone is val demings. marco rubio has no clue in doing that, unless he thinks it helps benefit his political future. >> adrienne elrod, talk, if you could, about the political landscape in florida. what the challenges might be for congresswoman val demings and, of course, if you have a question for the congresswoman, take it away. >> yeah. i mean, mika, the challenge with florida, of course, is that in the last election cycle, presidential election cycle trended more red. i said earlier in the program i think there's someone who can win state-wide as a democrat in florida, it's congresswoman val demings. val, i have a question for you. first of all i want to applaud the way you handled that economy question. every candidate running in a top tier race as a democrat should answer it the way you just did, but i want to talk about

abortion quickly. you really held senator, senator rubio to account last night on abortion. you see a lot of these republicans who have been fighting for a supreme court that is overturning roe. exactly what happened. now trying to have it both ways. they see how unpopular overturning roe is with swing voters. talk how you think this issue will play in your election in particular, especially when there are some economic issues that candidates are continuing with? >> well, thank you for that question. look, i have four beautiful granddaughters, and i cannot imagine an america where they have less constitutional rights or protections or right to privacy than i do. so that is a battle that we're going to fight and we're going to fight it with everything that we have. but when i'm traveling the state talking to voters i remind them, look. abortion may not be your issue, but if we send a message that it is okay to take away any

constitutional rights at all, then the next time it happens, it just may be your issue. i think clarence thomas was quite clear on the day that they overturned dobbs. that maybe we need to look at access to droon ceptives, look at marriage equality. what's next? and so i take a lot of time informing the voters we cannot tolerate discrimination of any kind nor can we go back to a time where any group of people are treated lie second-class citizens. >> congresswoman val demings. thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. we'll be watching. still ahead on "morning joe," the democratic nominee in another closely watched midterm contest. stacey abrams join us top of the next hour of "morning joe." later, as gas prices rise

across the country, president biden prepares to take a big step towards lowering them this winter. we'll speak with the administration's energy adviser. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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uhh - here, i'll take that woo hoo ensure max protein, with 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar and now in two new flavors (♪ ♪) beautiful shot of sunrise in washington, d.c. joining us, presidential analyst jon meacham and author of "and there was light." >> it's crazy. >> it's done really well. >> no. it's amazing. >> amazon shut down the site yesterday. >> this morning we focused the conversation on lincoln and the issue of race. here's some of what jon writes. "lincoln argued the founders' notion of equality gave the nation an ideal to realize a

promise to fulfill. the founders, lincoln said, in 1857, deployed the declaration as a standard maxim for free society which should be familiar to all and revered by all. thereby constantly spreading and deepening its influence and augmenting the happiness and value to life to all people of all colors everywhere." yet until the civil war did not follow this to its just conclusion. if as lincoln argued slavery should fall under the weight of the legislation why not insist total total terrorism be in place. this by many abolitionists.

lincoln died ratifying the 13th and 14th amendments to abolish slavery and make citizenship for black american as federal constitutional right. in his lifetime, however, he would never fully put into practice the principles summed up in the motto of a newspaper founded in rochester, new york, in 1847. right is of no sex. truth is of color. god is the father of us all, and all we are brethren. >> jon, thanks for being with us. you know, this discussion about the declaration of independence is such a fascinating discussion. it's such a debate. it's a debate that royals america on whether the declaration of independence should be attached somewhat to the guarantees of the constitution, which obviously was drafted over a decade later. but the south said, looked at

the constitution. the document created to guide our principles, and the declaration of independence is completely separate. that was the case, until, obviously, where lincoln in effect moved towards emancipation took the declaration, took the constitution, stapled them together and said, they're all really one document, which, of course, constitutional scholars were absolutely shocked and horrified by, but in the end for lincoln, that's the only thing that made his argument work. >> and i think it's the only thing that's going to make american democracy survive and possibly thrive. if we don't agree that all are created equal, endowed by their creator, certain unalienable rights, then this enterprise falls apart. become as struggle for power. a struggle for elections. you claim victory even if you

don't win. it becomes this kind of hobbsian state of nature. war against all. the declaration of independence is both a legal and i argue as important a moral document. it calls on a disparate country to enter into a covenant in which we treat each other with equal dignity and respect, not just because it's the right thing to do. that's great, but because it's in our self-interest. if i treat you as equal and dignified, you are more likely, therefore, to treat me. if i give, i am more likely to be able to take as well. if i just take, you're not going to be doing a lot of giving. and lincoln was an idealistic pragmatist, if you will. he believed fundamentally in this declaration. thought it was the key piece of infrastructure, when he goes to

gettysburg in 1863 grounds the nation famously not in 1897 with the document, a standard to which we had to strive. all of this is -- >> i'm so sorry, jon. eddie glaude, it had to, lincoln had to do this for emancipation to take effect, because, of course, the founders could not pass the constitution. could not get it ratified without the ugly compromise. actually institutionalized that recognized slavery in the southern states. so if lincoln were to move past that and move towards emancipation of slaves, he had to tell everybody, that was a compromise. that was necessary in 1787.

we're in 1860. we're going to put the declaration of independence on top of that as i said, staple it, and guarantee in jefferson's words, that all are created equal. >> right. this is why we call this moment the second founding. right? it's really important. ushers in the modern u.s. nation state. in so many ways. let's be clear. those words from the declaration of independence a ten-point program of the black panther party to give you a sense of their reach and scope. i want to ask you this question, my dear friend. congratulations on the book. the question is really, is lincoln, can -- how can i put this? is lincoln the man that has conception of democracy requires? let me ask you, ask you, say why i ask the question. because lincoln is, thinks slavery a monstrous. wants to end it. but he fundamentally believes that some people, because of the color of their skin are more valuable than others.

he believes in the superiority of white people. we see it in his day-to-day actions. so can lincoln be the very, be the kind of person this idea of democracy requires, because he continues to hold on to the very thing that undermines the principles that, that gird his view of democracy itself? >> abraham lincoln is a sinner who did a saintly thing. i'm a sinner and i don't do many saintly things. i think that he was, in fact, the person that human nature and democracy both enabled and forced him to do. he believed there was an eternal truth. >> uh-huh. >> he believed that there was a golden rule. not a conventional christian, but with frederick douglass and theodor parker believes there was a moral code and he stumbled

towards it. he didn't run toward it, as he said, you know, i may not move quickly but i don't move backwards. and so -- it's very important, you know more of this than i do, very important talking about history not to act as if it's a fairy tale. that there was a once upon a time and there will be a happily ever after. it doesn't work that way. this is a human undertaking, and so we have to be cognizant that as lincoln said, it is probably my lot to struggle on in twilight as poor doubting thomas did to see, to need to see to believe. to have good days and bad days. this is a man who lost children. a difficult marriage. was depressed. who stood for the declaration in illinois when stephen douglas said that the declaration of

independence was a white man's document and lincoln said, no. what you want to do, right, is you want to go back and grab him and say, okay. if this includes black people, they need to be citizens, but he stopped there. and he was apolitician. we can spend days on that. i don't want to mindlessly celebrate him, but i also want to recognize that he was a fallen, frail and fallible guy who moved forward, and we're a country of fallen, frail and fallible people, and we have to do the same. so seeing him do it is not necessarily a road map, because we want to go farther. >> uh-huh. >> but it is, in fact, inspirational and instructional. >> and, jon, i would like to say, history, it's not about fairy tales, and this is a very human enterprise.

another man. you wrote about thomas jefferson. you know, people -- there were people in jefferson's own day that thought he was a terrible human being. the fact is, he wrote a document that has led to the freeing of more human beings than any other document. than, say, the bible. ins history of humankind, and so i guess as a historian, you -- you talk about sorting through, sorting through the personal and then the political. i always talk about it. i said, how do we sort through this when we had tom ricks on. how do we sort through this, deplorable even in his own day yet created a political,

philosophical document that freed more people than anybody else in the history of the world, and the professor said, well what more do we want from our leaders? i thought a fascinating view. >> whatever he says we agree with, because -- >> exactly. here, here. >> she's both really smart and nice and kind of irritates me and eddie, because we're neither. so that's difficult. no. that's absolutely right. these are human beings and we're human beings and living in this hour through the greatest test of citizenship since the 1850s. we have to decide. people who look like me have to decide, are we, in fact, going to be adherents of the declaration. people of the declaration of independence, or are we going to seek our own power above all? are we willing to try to bring the fullness of that promise to

everybody? or are we not? and the pretty straightforward. and one of the things thrilling and terrifying about american history is that it's thrilling, because it's up to us, and it's, jesus, it's terrifying, because holy -- it's up to us! wait a minute. you mean it's up to us? >> you know, jon, joe mentioned jefferson and jefferson like lincoln, you referenced earlier, they were both politicians in the sense. >> yeah. >> and the element of politics that seems largely missing and too often these days given all the vulnerabilities and frailty of human beings, two things seemingly are not as omomniprest as they used to be in politic opinions character and courage. in talking about lincoln i have continually been stunned to think of the timing of his election to the presidency. >> yeah. >> his inauguration to the

presidency. and then almost immediately sumpter is attacked, almost immediately, and he is urged to just cede for something. give it up, calm down, and he said, no. >> he has william seward, to have been president, easily. thought he should have been. and winfield scott saying, sumpter's not worth civil war and lincoln said, no. he said no three times in a hugely important way. once, when elected a compromise on the table to extend slavery to the west and avoid war. he said, no. he walks in to the office, now the lincoln bedroom on the second floor of the white house. and handed these papers about major anderson needing supplies at fort sumpter, because south

carolina succeeded in december was threatening it, and he received advice, smart people in the room. the clever people in the room said, don't do it. and he said, no. nen 1864, about to lose, re-election, he was urged by the chairman of the republican national committee to say emancipation should be on the table to try to bring the south back in, and he said, no. because as he put it, men act on incentive. i cannot ask black men to fight and die for a union that would enslave them. and these are moral moments, and practical, too, but fundamentally, if you just see him as political creature, there were other reasons to do -- if you're, solely a politician there's always a reason to do the other thing. he did the hard thing. and we live in a better country. we don't live in a perfect

country, but it's a better come. >> hmm. >> the new book is entitled "and there was light: abraham lincoln and the american struggle." jon meacham, thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe," florida's governor ron desantis has made it his mission to root out perceived voter fraud, but how does that actually work? flu video from police cameras reveals confusion and anger of those getting arrested while the local police sound apologetic for what they were carrying out. we're go to show you that. >> sounds like a mess. >> like a complete buster. we'll be right back. >> buster! >> buster! we really had our hands full with our two-year-old. so naturally, we doubled down with a new puppy.

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another beautiful day in washington. like pictures of the white house at 49 past the hour. two months ago florida's republican governor ron desantis

announced the arrests of 20 people on voter fraud charges as part of his new office of election crimes in security. but now new policed bodycam video obtained by the "tampa bay times" show the confusion from those getting arrested and police making the arrests. take a look. >> apparently i guess you have a warrant? >> for what? >> i'm not sure. >> voter stuff, man. >> voter. >> what it is, i think the agents talked to you last week about some voter fraud, voter stuff, when you weren't supposed to be voting, maybe? >> a warrant for your arrest? >> for what? >> how are you, sir? >> i wasn't -- >> how's it going? >> oh, my gosh. let me tell my husband. >> we'll tell him. he's right here. >> if you could put your hands behind your back. >> ultimately, ma'am, you have a warrant. hold on, listen.

i know you're caught off guard, i understand. so you have a warrant, it's for voter fraud. >> i didn't do nothing to nobody. voter fraud? what is voter fraud? >> voting when you're not supposed to, sir. that's what our understanding is of the warrant. because of your ex offender status, you're not supposed to be voting. >> i don't know this. >> voter fraud? >> why are you all doing this now and this happened years ago? >> i have no idea, man. >> this is crazy, man. >> what the -- >> we're going to go over to the hood of my car and i've got to search you. >> what is wrong with this state, man? good god, voter fraud. >> eddie glaude? eddie glaude, i don't know what to say, so i hand it over to

you. >> it's infuriating, joe. out of the 20 people who were arrested, 13 were african american or people of color. it harkens back to a period in which the state was deployed to curtail the rights of americans. it's enranling, joe. and this is the backdrop to the midterm elections. this is the backdrop to 2024. and to be honest with you, it's not only enraging, it's clearly undemocratic. it just pisses me off, i'm sorry. >> give me those numbers again. >> out of the 20 folks, 13 were black or people of color. >> oh, there's a pattern here. >> of course. of course. >> okay. >> new polling shows president biden's approving rating at its highest point in the year. >> in the latest cbs news/yougov

survey 48% of americans approve of the president's job performance compared to 52% who disapprove. >> i just have to stop right here for a second. i keep hearing -- you know, there are so many articles that are written. keep that up. just keep that up. there are so many articles that are written every day by lazy people who talk about how democrats are running away from joe biden because of his historically low approval ratings. keep this up. it's the same type of lazy reporters that used to always say, well, of course donald trump's economy is stronger than anybody else's economy ever, when actually even before the pandemic his economy was growing like the seventh fastest of like

the last seven to ten presidents. joe biden's approval ratings have been low. they have been in the 30s. but again, you're reading one election story after another, one trumpist media outlet after another talking about joe biden's low approval ratings. this is one poll, this is cbs/yougov poll. another poll yesterday had him at 46%, his highest in a year. and so i think his average is around 42, 43%, which historically compares fairly well compared to others at this stage of their presidency. mike barnicle, the laziness -- and that's why i wanted to keep this up for a second. the laziness of reporters who say, oh, candidates don't want biden because he has low poll, he has historically low polling.

it's really not true. >> well, you know, the presidency of joseph r. biden has been incredibly successful when you look at it bit by bit, piece by piece, passed legislation. and the fact that he's at 48%, that's higher than donald trump was at the height of his presidency, i think, to my memory. and, eddie, it's incredible, to joe's point, that no matter what happens in this presidency, no matter what is passed, the focus seems to be on poll numbers rather than legislation that has actually improved the lives of many americans. >> right, right. that's the current that he has to swim against. you know, this perception that he's not popular, this perception that he's not being effective, and part of the work that the democratic party has to do is kind of figure out a way, it might be too late at this point, but a narrative to break through that. i don't know what the content of it will be, but you've got to

tell the truth about what you have done and see what happens from there. our next guest says there are numbers in that cbs poll that should concern democrats. john joins us now, the director of polling at the institute of politics at harvard university and an msnbc political contributor and the author of the book "fight, how gen z is channeling their fear and passion to save america." >> john, you know, it's fascinating. i was just showing that poll -- there was another poll yesterday that showed biden at 46%, another had him at 44%. what's fascinating about this cycle is the disconnect between presidential approval ratings and the generic ballot test. when biden's approval ratings were in the 30s, a month or two ago, democrats were doing actually very well. you're like, wait a second, this doesn't make sense. what's interesting, though, is

biden's approval ratings have gone up and this poll and a poll yesterday, even in the rasmussen poll, republicans have been gaining. but you go into the cross tabs and that's what really provides reason for democrats to worry about what's going to be happening in a couple of weeks. explain. >> well, a couple of things, joe, one of which is there seems to be a little bit of the air out of the balloon in terms of the enthusiasm from the late summer. but remember, this is a marathon. we're at heartbreak hill. there's a couple of miles left and a few weeks to go. one of the things that's most concerning to me is a sense that democrats -- a majority of voters believe democrats have been ineffective. actually if you borrow the slogan from nbc, the more you know, the more effective democrats look. not just the last couple of years but i would argue the last couple of months. only a month after the slaughter

that ruined so many lives in uvalde, we had bipartisan gun legislation. crime has been an issue affecting millions of people. it is a center issue in most of these campaigns. the biden administration with democratic support invested $10 billion, $6.5 billion across hundreds of communities across the country. climate change, one of the main pillars of crises that the president designed his campaign around, you saw historic improvement there in terms of the investment in which an average american family gets $500 back in credit. and student loan debt. so it's a much more positive policy story than a lot of democrats and their campaign are running against. it isn't negative. >> and what about the abortion issue, is it registering in any polls that you're seeing? a lot of people are feeling concerned that democrats are not

maximizing the impact that this will have on the lives of women and the people who love them. >> well, mika, the abortion issue, i think it's a two-part story. the first part was it was responsible, i think, for registering millions of young americans focused on fighting for those rights. men, women, et cetera. that's part one. but it clearly has kind of faded from the top first or second issue in most of these campaigns. still very, very important. when you look at the question, it slipped by nine points but 60% say it's very, very important. so with the president's effort yesterday and with campaigns that will continue to be an issue. but again, that's negative partisanship. that's what has been taken away. democrats also need to talk about what voters got when they voted for democrats in 2020 because it's a much fuller story than i think many voters are

understanding right now. >> and you're also looking at voters under 30 and their interest or participation or dedication or even understanding that the midterms exist. >> well, yes. we have our harvard poll coming out next week, a week from thursday. we'll talk about that. but what we're really looking at, mika, is in terms of turnout, will the turnout look more like 2018, which we saw historic turnout in the mid-30s or the 1980s and 2014 where less than one in five young people voted. that very well could be the deciding point in terms of which way the senate as well as the house goes. >> so let me ask you this really quickly, john. it's interesting, usually people get more intense as the election gets closer. you look at some items that joe biden and democrats pushed through. you talk about the loan forgiveness that supposedly was

going to help biden with young voters, the marijuana whatever you call it what he did with marijuana, decriminalization that was supposed to help with young voters, the abortion issue we had heard was going to motivate young voters. why is it that in so many polls you see young voter interest actually declining after joe biden has done things that i think most pollsters and politicians said were aimed at getting them to the polls? >> i think the context is important, joe, in terms of the historic number of where we were a couple of years ago. and i think that 40% or so is perhaps, sadly, kind of what the ceiling might be for voter participation. and again, that was really energized over the course of the summer with those items.

but again, three weeks, i don't think that we've heard from the last of these campaigns. i think that there's significant mobilization efforts both with democrats but also a lot of interest groups around the country organizing young people. there were spikes of registration and i still expect young people to be participating. but the question is also compared to other cycles at this time, there is 13, 14% who could be undecided among young people so democrats can't just mobilize, they need to persuade a little bit and remind people of those events that you just mentioned. >> all right, john, thanks so much. looking forward to seeing you next week. really i'm going to be blaming my covid fog for everything i do for the next ten to 15 years, god willing. so i guess biden pardoned people in federal prison for marijuana possession. >> possession, possession, exactly. >> possession, exactly.

didn't decriminalize it, kids. that's either in your state or coming to a state near you sometime soon. we need to have a debate on that. it was it lena wen understood what the president had done. at the same time there's a lot of concern about marijuana use in young people and the impacts. >> i am definitely in the shrinking minority on that one. and now for something completely different, willie. >> so as we've been talking about the midterm elections here, you were just talking with john about what messages are working and which are not, former president barack obama has a few ideas about that, admitting democrats may have a problem with messaging which resonates with voters. while speaking on the pod save america podcast, he said sometimes democrats fail to put the issues in terms that apply

to people's everyday lives. he also touched on the impact of cancel culture. >> i think we do get into trouble -- look, i used to get into trouble whenever -- as you guys know too well, whenever i got a little too professorial, behind a podium as opposed to in a crowd, i would sound like i was giving a bunch of policy gobbledy-gook. people think about the life i'm leading day to day. how is politics even relevant to the things that i care most deeply about. not being a buzzkill, right? >> that's a lesson for the democrats. >> and sometimes democrats are. it's like -- you know, sometimes

people just want to not feel as if they are walking on egg shells. and they want some acknowledgement that life is messy and that all of us at any given moment can, you know, say things the wrong way, you know, make mistakes. michelle talks about her mother-in-law -- or her mother, my mother-in-law, who is an extraordinary woman. as michelle points out, she's 86. and sometimes trying to get the right phraseology when we're talking about issues, michelle is like, that's like her trying to learn spanish. it doesn't mean she shouldn't try to learn spanish but it means that sometimes she's not going to get the words right, and that's okay. and that attitude, i think, of just being a little more real and a little more grounded is

something that i think goes a long way in counteracting what is a systematic -- the systematic propaganda that i think is being pumped out by fox news and all these other outlets all the time. >> the former president will be back on the campaign trail for democrats this month with less than three days to go till election day, he'll make stops in michigan, wisconsin and georgia. this is a message that we've heard over the last few degrees president obama. he said call out culture, that's not activism, using a hash tag is not activism. look how woke i am is not the way to persuade someone. >> yeah. and it is -- it's something that he keeps trying to i wouldn't say hammer home but trying to get the message across. democrats should be less judgmental. they should move away from those that want to pull them into sort

of a woke culture. and of course it's fascinating coming from president obama because i think it has so much more impact. >> yeah, something i'd like to ask our next guest about, if that's okay. joining us now, the democratic nominee for governor of georgia, stacey abrams. it's great to have you back on the show. curious at your biggest takeaways as to how your race is going right now and if you'd like to chime in on president obama's comments. >> i think president obama is absolutely right, and it's what we're seeing on the ground. right now we are walking away so often from the real issues that people care about. abortion is an economic issue. it's been reduced to this idea of a culture war. but for women in georgia, this is very much a question of whether they're going to end up in poverty in the next five years because women who are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies end up within poverty -- they're four times

more likely to be impoverished in five years. this is an economic issue and being reduced to a culture conversation. for families that have faced the issue of inflation, they care about housing prices, they care about whether they can afford to go to a doctor. that's why i'm fighting for medicaid expansion in georgia and why we're having conversations about a governor who makes his money in real estate and will not spend $400 million in eviction rental assistance to keep people in their homes. so it's important that we reduce these conversations not to high level conversations but to real impact on people's lives. that's what we're seeing is working on the ground and why we're seeing such turnout in georgia. >> so i'm curious, i was going to say in my four campaigns i never had to talk about inflation. warned about it but never had to say, hey, here's my idea on how you get grocery prices down but i'm not alone. this hasn't really happened in a generation.

you're out there on the front lines campaigning along with everybody else where people are looking to you saying i can't buy a starter home like my parents did when they were in their 20s or 30s. i'm having trouble paying groceries. i'm having trouble paying my bills, let alone getting my kids into college. gas prices are going back up. what -- i'm so curious, what do you say to a voter who is struggling to even pay their rent now because, my gosh, rent prices for so many middle class americans just exploding. >> well, one, you say that inflation is a global phenomenon, but the pain is local and real. so you don't deny what people are feeling. then you explain what a governor can do. this governor has refused to address the cost of housing. he has said that he doesn't want to upset investors by giving local governments control over helping control housing prices. i want to make sure they have the help they need. he says that it's okay because

he doesn't want to upset these investors at 30% of housing units in georgia have been purchased by out of state equity investors. i have a plan to solve that. he doesn't really talk about the issues that we're facing in health care. we're losing a level one trauma center. georgia will be down to four level one trauma centers for an 11 million person population. one for the entire metro atlanta area. and he won't do a thing to solve the problem by expanding medicaid. so i talk about if you need access to health care, it's going to be more expensive under this governor. you've already lost six hospitals with his leadership or failed leadership. so you take the big issues and let people understand what a governor can do to address it. i'm the only candidate talking about need based financial aid so middle class families can send their kids to college without going deeper into debt. those are the issues we have to talk about. to the points you were making earlier, we've got to lean into the resources that federal democrats have delivered to georgia. that hard-working georgians have

delivered to themselves. my plan is to invest money back into the communities, back into our families, back into our small businesses. my opponent wants to give it away to tax cuts to the wealthy. >> ms. abrams, you're running for governor of georgia. i would assume, maybe incorrectly, but while abortion is an issue, it nowhere reaches the level of interest of voters in terms of the cost of gas, food, bread, milk, things like that. what can a governor, what could you do as governor to alleviate the concerns of georgia voters about those liveability, daily, hourly issues that they're confronted with. >> but let's be clear. having children is why you're worried about your price for gas, it's why you're concerned about how much food costs. for women, this is not a reductive issue. you can't divorce being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy from the economic realities of

having a child. and so these are -- it's important for us to have both and conversations. we don't have the luxury of reducing it or separating them out. we also have to talk about what a governor can do. a governor can address housing prices. a governor can address the cost of education. a governor can put money into the pockets of everyday hard-working georgians instead of giving tax cuts to the wealthy. that's what i talk about on the trail and that's what's resonating. but let's not pretend that women, half the population, especially those of child-bear age, they understand that having a child is absolutely an economic issue. it's only politicians who see it as simply another cultural conversation. it is a real biological and economic imperative conversation that web need to have. >> ms. abrams, this is eddie glaude. first of all, congratulations. we're both going to be celebrating homecoming with spellman and moorhouse this weekend so we want to give a shoutout to our alma maters. but i want to ask you a question

about the home stretch. here we are in the home stretch of this campaign. what do you have to do to ensure that your base turns out, that independents turn towards you? so what is the message in this home stretch to get these numbers up in order for you to cross the finish line as it were, and when? >> what we've been talking about is we have a governor who doesn't care, he won't help and spent four years attacking our freedoms, weakening gun laws, abandoning access to abortion, denying access to elections. i'm running to give people more. more money in their pockets, more opportunities in their communities and small businesses and more freedom in their lives. let's talk about elections, for example. we know that there has been this remarkable attempt by republicans to equate what i have said to what donald trump has said. a tinpot dictator says he gets to win because he wants to. what i have done the last four years is lift up access to the right to vote because i know what it means to be told you don't have the right to be heard. i actually faced an obstacle to

be able to vote but i had the knowledge and wherewithal to fight back but imagine if you don't. imagine if someone tells you your voice doesn't matter. so i spent the last four years filing lawsuits to ensure future access to the right to vote. i did the work of rallying people and letting them know their efforts were not in vain, telling them they made progress. and you just saw what they did in florida and what's happening here in georgia, a homeless woman in forsyth county was challenged under brian kemp's new law and told that she couldn't vote and was denied a provisional ballot. they did that on purpose because we know that joe biden won by about 11,000, 12,000 votes in georgia. 7,000 of which were cast through provisional ballots on election day. they know what they're doing but they're trying to distract us with false equivalents and reductive arguments. and so my job is to remind people not only of what's at stake but who's in charge.

what brian kemp has done the last four years, the last 12 years, is do everything he can to limit access to the right to vote. i am rallying our people to understand that their voices matter. if they turn out and show who they are, we can win this election. >> all right, democratic nominee for governor of georgia, stacey abrams. thank you very much. please come back, we appreciate your coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe" with gas price on the rise again, president biden is expected to announce the release of 15 million more barrels from the strategic oil reserve. the administration's top energy advisor will join us this morning just ahead of that move. also ahead, possible new evidence that undermines former president trump's claim that none of the materials seized from mar-a-lago was classified. we've learned there is audio that proves trump admitted his letters to the leader of north

korea were top secret. plus, where's the beef? that's the exact question the special master in the mar-a-lago documents case posed to trump's attorneys. we'll explain what he meant when "morning joe" comes right back. k ♪♪ after a disaster, you don't just want something new, you want what's yours. that's why tide loads of hope is expanding to provide clean clothes to more people in crisis. with every purchase of tide hygienic clean you can help too.

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already threatening san francisco's wastewater treatment plant at ocean beach. risking overflow sewage to dump right into the ocean. there's a solid climate plan in place, but changes to the great highway required by prop i would cost san francisco taxpayers $80 million to draft a new climate plan and put the entire west side and ocean beach at risk of contamination. protect our beach, ocean and essential infrastructure. reject prop i before it's too late. let's get to our top story this morning. it is bad news for donald trump, saying the quiet part out loud. but at this point i think it's the doj that actually hears the quiet part out loud instead of desensitized republicans. donald trump has claimed since the fbi search of mar-a-lago that none of the material seized

was sensitive. not only is that untrue, but according to an excerpt from a new audio book, former president donald trump indicated during a january 2020 interview with bob woodward that he knew letters from north korean leader kim jong-un were classified. >> top secret. >> and appeared to acknowledge they were so secret that he should not be sharing them. according to "the washington post" after urging woodward to treat them with respect, trump warned in an interview and said don't say i gave them to you, okay? but i'll let you see them, trump added. i don't want you to have them all. these are his quotes. a month later in january of 2020, woodward pressed trump in a phone call to let him also see the letters that trump wrote to kim. >> and here are the words. oh, those are so top secret. >> oh, dear. >> the classification actually

that the fbi and the doj has been seeing. he had top secret material, mika. and they're like oh, no, no, no. but donald trump tells woodward they're so top secret. >> let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. ken, does this move the meter at all, especially in the eyes of doj, looking into whether he was obstructing justice and other things? >> mika, you have to believe that it does because, you know, this whole question of intent is looming over this entire investigation. here is -- here is evidence in donald trump's own mouth, including this new designation of so top secret that he knew this stuff was extremely sensitive. now, it's not the letters with the north korean leader that the government is all that worried about. those in theory wouldn't betray

really any sources and methods, those are classified as a matter of course. you know, sensitive correspondence between two leaders. but it's the other stuff that we don't know about that could have profound implications. if he was treating these letters this way, then what was he doing with a leader profile of the french profile that was based on highly classified collection, or other kinds of information that really, really could put the national security in danger. so absolutely. this is going to be a really tough thing for the trump team to overcome. now, trump could still make the claim -- this conversation happened in 2019. he can still make the claim and he's been making it except not in court that he somehow declassified this information using his powers as the ultimate declassification authority. but there is absolutely no evidence that that happened. no one we've talked to who worked in the trump administration believes that happened and trump's lawyers have never made that claim in court presumably because they have no evidence to back it up.

>> ken, stay with us. we want to get you on another story making headlines this morning. the special master in the mar-a-lago documents case is pressing trump's legal team to back up its claims with evidence. we'll run through those developments next on "morning joe." next on "morning joe.

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start with a flavored product. and once they're hooked, they can be addicted for life. this election: we can stop big tobacco's dirty trick. voting yes on prop 31 will end the sale of candy flavored tobacco products. saving kids from nicotine addiction. vote yes on 31. the special master posed a question, a throwback to a 1980s wendy's commercial asking where's the beef? that's the question posed to former president donald trump's attorneys by the special master during a phone conference yesterday. special master judge raymond dearie expressed skepticism about trump's claim that certain documents seized from mar-a-lago are privileged. he requested more information from trump's attorneys to back up that assertion. he also encouraged them to explain why they believe documents could be lawfully shielded from the justice

department's inquiry into whether the former president unlawfully kept classified records at mar-a-lago and obstructed the government's repeated attempts to the them back. so, you know, this is so fascinating to watch the special master work, ken. remember, judge dearie was on the trump team's list and was agreed to that this would be the guy. boy, he's not getting from him what he thought he might get. >> no, indeed. and we've all been puzzling why they put him on the list. the only plausible theory is that he was once on the fisa court and it's believed that he may have reviewed some of the applications for a warrant during the trump russia investigation where the fbi made some misrepresentations. so the trump team thought he may be more skeptical than other judges of the u.s. government. but it turns out that judge dearie is a member of team reality and he's acting like a federal judge would act and he's demanding that the lawyers back up their assertions and make

timely applications and he's dissatisfied with the pace of the trump team submissions because it's very clear that -- it's clear to a lot of people that this whole exercise by the trump side is a matter of trying to delay things. let's not forget the justice department is appealing this whole process and they are trying to get an expedited ruling from the 11th circuit that would put judge dearie out of business and make this whole thing go away. even more important than that, they have got the classified documents, they're proceeding with their investigation and interviewing important witnesses. there's no sign really that this process is impeding the fbi and the justice department. >> and, believe it or not, there is a third major legal case playing out right now. this one involving a special prosecutor from the trump era. >> yeah, but it's not a good special prosecutor. he just keeps losing cases. >> john durham, he just lost again yesterday. >> you know, jesus says don't build your house on sand, right?

well, don't build an investigation on a donald trump conspiracy theory. >> anyhow, dealing another blow to the ex-president's claims of some big government conspiracy. those details are next on "morning joe." xt on "morning joe." ♪ today, my friend, you did it... ♪ today you took delicious centrum multigummies and took one more step towards taking charge of your health. they're packed with essential nutrients for energy and immunity support. so every day, you can say, ♪ you did it! ♪ with centrum multigummies. did you know if you turn to cold with tide you can save up to $150 a year on your energy bill? how? the lower the temp, the lower your bill. tide cleans great in cold and saves money? i am so in.

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ken, one more for you. a federal jury has acquitted a russian think tank analyst on four counts of lying to the fbi about his role in the creation of a discredited dossier about former president donald trump. prosecutors alleged 44-year-old igor deshenko provided falsified information in the largely unsubstantiated dossier detailing trump's alleged ties to russia. this is expected to be the final case stemming from special

counsel john durham's three-year probe into the origins of the fbi's investigation into allegations -- >> wow. we have heard. >> -- of ties between trump -- >> we have heard from trump and his hacks in the media that durham was going to uncover the great -- the great deep state conspiracy against donald trump. of course you saw everybody lie. you saw durham -- maybe it was about a year ago, i can't remember exactly. that durham puts up a pleading that looks like literally was drafted by a 6-year-old of the i've never seen anything so mangled. any court pleading. mika, you know, you remember i was reading it and i don't set around scanning over documents, i'm a generalist. but i was reading it for a day. i called every legal expert i knew. i said i don't get this document. it looks like they're just trying to create headlines here,

there's nothing here. and sure enough, hacks. it's true, it's true. harrison ford, all of it's true, it's true. hillary -- hillary, she, she bugged trump's phone. it's true there's a deep state conspiracy. no, it wasn't. it's just such horrible bad faith. and i remember all weekend from friday to monday they lied repeatedly about what durham's pleading said. lied repeatedly. and durham, this guy is like the 1962 mets. this may be the worst investigation in the history of the federal government. it's hard to lose if you've got the power of the federal government behind you, but he keeps doing it. i want you to talk about that, ken. but also this is a good time to stop. we have three stories. all three of them breaking strong against donald trump. all three of them proving that

judges and juries are on, as you said, team reality. think about it. trump always seems to lose in court. 65 cases where they're going into federal court and they're doing their scam lies that they can do on the internet. they can do with really stupid people. these conspiracy theories about stealing the election. 65 federal courts shut them down, including the united states supreme court. even thomas and alito say, listen, we can take this case based on the merits, but it's not going to change the outcome of the election. and then you have this special master time and again, you have the 11th circuit coming out last week shutting -- shutting down the federal judge. you've got the united states supreme court doing the same thing over the past six months,

claims of executive privilege by trump thrown out by the united states supreme court. i can go -- literally can go on and on for the next 15 minutes about all the spurious claims that donald trump has made. and his judges that he appointed are even shutting down almost all of these claims. >> ken. >> yeah, joe. you are absolutely right. the federal government does not lose many of the trials when it chooses to take a case to trial. it wins the vast majority of them. and this prosecutor, john durham, this special counsel, is now 0 for two in trials. two charged, two acquitted. and he tried this case himself. this is a spectacular crack-up and raises a lot of questions about john durham's past work. remember, john durham was hired by the obama administration to investigate whether the cia broke the law when it tortured prisoners. he investigated for years an

brought no charges. and then he fought vigorously to keep all his information secret. and back then, when i talk to people about him, he generally had a good reputation as a solid nonpartisan prosecutor. but in this case judges have found that he tried to insert spurious material into these cases to try to create this idea that there was this conspiracy by the fbi to act improperly, to set up donald trump. none of it flew. before this trial started, the judge threw most of what he was trying to put before the jury, threw it out. and so it became a very narrow trial about whether denchenko lied to the fbi on esoteric issues and the jury took a day and said why are we here? they acquitted him who was a key source for the dossier. and the dossier, look, it's well known now that the dossier played very little role in the fbi's investigation. it was a spurious document full of gossip and innuendo.

the fbi treated it like that fairly quickly after they learned that that's what it was about. but john durham, wow. i mean he's going to write a report now and he's going to submit it to merrick garland. merrick garland, the attorney general, will decide whether to make it public. but his effort to try to prove that there was some improper conspiracy by the fbi to frame donald trump has collapsed spectacularly. >> nbc's ken dilanian, thank you very much. coming up, we'll go live to florida on the heels of last night's heated u.s. senate debate between congresswoman val demings and republican incumbent marco rubio. >> boy, that was a good one. >> it was fiery. nbc's shaq brewster has a full recap just ahead on "morning joe."

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migrants has already led the mayor to declare a state of emergency. now, a new tent city is being erected to house the thousands of people being bussed into the city. nbc's stephanie gosk has more. >> reporter: this morning, controversy around a new facility for migrants on new york city's randall's island after an influx of 20,000 migrants have arrived from the border, crowding the city's already strained shelter system. mayor eric adams hoping to solve what he calls a humanitarian crisis. >> we were hit with this unprecedented influx. what did we do? we pivot and shifted to make sure we addressed it. >> reporter: the 84,400 square foot facility is made up of three giant white tents slated to temporarily house as many as 500 single male migrants, with wall-to-wall cots, laundry center, cafeteria and recreation area. google maps labeling it adams tent city. it's unclear where the label

came from. the project has been at the center of the heated immigration debate. governors from other states like texas sending migrants to new york saying states with more rib liberal laws should hajsds the influx. after ron desantis chartered a plane to martha's vineyard weeks ago. >> joe biden's 5 million illegal aliens are on the verge of replacing you. >> reporter: in new york the mayor now under fire for housing the migrants on randall's island. republicans say it's a waste of money while critics from the left say the tents are unacceptable. >> tent city is horrible. it's just a repeat of what they're escaping right now. >> reporter: the new facility was put here on an island that has no housing for new york city residents and few facilities after concerns about flooding caused the city to scrap plans to set up tents in the bronx. >> nbc's stephanie gosk with that report. it's time now for a look at the morning papers, the headlines around the country.

"the connecticut post" is looking at the state's economic ties to saudi arabia. connecticut has over $20 million in treasury investments in saudi arabia. about 9% of that money is in saudi government bonds and oil. a treasury department spokesperson declined to say whether state officials have considered divesting from the kingdom. in new jersey, "the record" reports that governor phil murphy's administration has sued five fossil fuel companies for denying climate change exists. the lawsuit alleges the companies, quote, systematically concealed information that the burning of oil has contributed to a warming planet. the companies allegedly waged a public relations campaign to delay the transition to a lower carbon future increased profits according to the lawsuit. in indiana, "the indianapolis star" covers the governor's decision not to pardon marijuana

convictions. the decision comes after president biden asked governors to use their pardoning powers for marijuana convictions at the state level. holcomb pushed back saying the president should coordinate with congress when it comes to changes to federal law. and the "sioux city journal" reports that early voting begins today in iowa for this year's general election. it is also the first day county auditors can mail an absentee ballot to a voter who requested one. in the state's closely watched senate race, the latest polling shows republican senator chuck grassley leading democratic challenger mike franken by just three percentage points among likely voters. well, our next guest has been traveling across the country to several swing states speaking with women about getting out the vote. rachel vindman joins us now. she's the co-host of the podcast entitled "the suburban women

problem." rachel, i love the title of the podcast. i want to hear about the problem. you have a new op-ed for "usa today" entitled complacency got women here but authenticity can get us back to where we want to be. you write in the course of three weeks i took three flights and drove over 1300 miles to talk to women in four states. it was about women, our experiences, and how policies and proposals playing out across the country are affecting us and our families. you heard so many women introduce themselves and say some version of i've never been politically active, but i know i have to do something now. for too long we heard people casually repeat casually repeat disinformation and lies, but many of us were too polite to push back, because we were afraid to engage with someone out of fear that they were better informed than us or simply, we wanted to keep our social interactions free of

politics. the only way out of this mess is for those of us who have been complacent and i'm talking to myself here, just as much as anyone else, to roll up our sleeves and work alongside anyone who is willing to work with us. complacency got us here, but authenticity can get us back to where we want to be. rachael, i love it. i also think after donald trump was voted into office, a lot of women said, you know what, hell with it. i'm going to run for office. obviously, i can't leave this other people. but in other ways, we've still slid back even more, with abortion rights being taken away, rights we've had for 50 years. so how do we push back against that complacency that you write about? >> i think the best way is to tell women to talk to other women, to talk to their friends, to talk to their family. we've got to get out of these information silos.

and the best way to do that is through relational organizing, which is kind of becoming a buzz word, but we shouldn't let it becoming a buzz word take away from its efficacy. because we are seeing women very easily, you know, i said in the op-ed, instead of going and knocking on doors of strangers, which is still a great thing to do, but this, talking to people with whom you already have a relationship, that you already have rapport, they trust you, and you can talk about these tough subjects. and that's the thing, we have to talk about it. for too long, we haven't talked about it, but now we have to get in there and discuss these things and help people vote. some people are very embarrassed that they've never been -- maybe they've never voted. and we just have to put that aside and help them vote and make sure their voice is heard. >> so the discussion, rachael, is so important. i mean, for example, on the issue of abortion, for years, i think a lot of women sort of

didn't want to talk, if they had different points of view, fine. but it was there, it was a right. and for those who needed that health care, it was there. it was a right. i feel like the conversations you're talking about, women needing to have, it's especially young women, who may think an abortion is somewhere off, maybe not their future. actually, actually, whether it's you or someone you love, this is a matter of life and death. this could be a problematic pregnancy and you are sitting there on the table and your doctor is trying to figure out how not to break the law. it could have nothing to do with the concept of abortion as republicans might put it. it's about our lives, our health care. and sometimes i want to take young women by the collars and say, this is about you. you have got to -- if this is the one time you vote, the first time you vote in your life, please let it be these midterms. do you feel the urgency, especially among younger women

and men? >> i do feel the urgency. >> on this issue. >> yeah, i definitely do. it's there, i met a lot of young women who came to the events when i was traveling around, and i met a lot of women, older women, but younger than me, who say, i work with a lot of young women, and i want to talk to them about this. and the best way to share our personal experience. i had an ectopic pregnancy. we lived in germany and i was -- i went for just a regular checkup, i thought i was having a miscarriage, i was in surgery within 30 minutes, that's how emergent it was. and i have shared that story a lot, prior to that, to this moment, i haven't really shared that story very much, but i want people to know, i didn't have time to drive four or six hours to a state that would have allowed me to have the surgery that i needed to save my life. and these are the stories we have to tell. we have to amplify these stories, and, you know, look, i

know the polling, people are talking about tightening polling, i don't have time to mess with that. i mean, as we get closer to the election, you know, we really like to talk about horse race politics, and it's fun, and it makes for great discussions, but we just need to get in there and do the work, and put that aside for a minute, and when i say "we," i mean suburban women. like, we -- you can't look at that and have it make a difference, because we -- it's going to be close, but everyone needs their voice to be heard. and that's why, you know, these women -- i'm just so excited, i'm inspired and encouraged by their desire to make a difference, even if they never have before. and that's what i think is actually being missed in this polling, is people who are not -- not considered likely voters, but are likely voters. >> so, what are the uncomfortable conversations -- i mean, i think you're right. i think women sometimes don't want to have an uncomfortable

conversation, they want to keep their social interactions positive. and even worse, we don't want to make people feel -- for some reason, we feel responsible for the comfort of everybody in the room. >> it's true. >> and in "know your value," i often tell women, stop doing that. it's about what you have to say, and sometimes it needs to be, uncomfortable. but it's hard. what are some of the issues where it's worth having the uncomfortable conversations, because, rachael, there are some that are not worth having because there's no changing people who have been poisoned by disinformation. they're not changing. so i would say, i'm not having that, because i don't really know how to change someone who's completely poisoned by being a member of a cult that they don't even know they're in. i mean, it's really sad. that's a sad situation. but people who you can have conversations with, what are the uncomfortable conversations, what are the issues that you think should be pressed?

>> well, first, i completely agree with you. you've got to know when to walk away and know when to run. just keep that kenny rogers song in your head. the other thing, i would say, when you're talking to people, a lot of people are the victims of like casual disinformation. and they're repeating it. and you've got to push back. and i say this as a really good friend of mine, my neighbor, my carpool partner, a lot of times, i have to, you know, kind of correct some things that she's heard, but we're able to have great conversations and even if we look at things a little different, and i think that i have shown her and pointed her to resources that have dispelled some of the, you know, nonsense that she has seen on social media. and that's really important. she doesn't watch the news, she doesn't consume the news. and that is really the place that we can make the biggest difference. and then the other part is just helping people register and get to the polls. maybe you need to watch their

kids, why they go vote. you know, encourage early voting. a lot of people don't know the possibilities of early voting. my husband and i voted in virginia in four minutes. so, like, in and out of the car in four minutes. early voting is amazing. you've got to talk about these things so people know it's available. >> rachel vindman, thank you very, very much. we really appreciate you coming on the show this morning. great conversation. on a related note, we have a feature right now on knowyourvalue.com as what's being called the great breakup. according to a workplace survey, women leaders are leaving their companies at record rates. not only that, the gap between women and men who are quitting senior-level jobs is the biggest it's ever been. this is not good. one glaring example for every woman at the director level who gets promoted up, two other

women directors are choosing to leave their company. we're going to reveal the reasons behind this mass exodus, the great breakup, and what can be done to stem it. you can find this at knowyourvalue.com. it is just before the top of the hour. right now, 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. we've got a lot to get to this hour, including a new move aimed at easing rising gas prices ahead of the midterms. president biden expected to announce plans to tap the u.s. oil reserve again. we're going to speak live with the administration's top energy adviser and cnbc's andrew ross sorkin will join us to explain how the move might impact people's wallets, how quickly, as well. also ahead, new polling finds many americans are concerned about the state of this country's democracy. but is it enough to keep them from supporting election deniers this cycle. and breaking news just coming in right now.

vladimir putin declares martial law in four regions that russia claims to have annexed. we'll get a live report from ukraine straight ahead. but willie, to our top story now. >> we begin this hour in florida and last night's debate in the race for senate between republican incumbent marco rubio and democratic congresswoman val demings. let's bring in nbc's shaquille brewster, live from palm beach, florida. shaq, how did it go last night? >> there were sparks flying. we saw insults, there were interruptions and even dramatic moments that even frankly both of the candidates had throughout the night. but the biggest thing we saw was a clear contrast between the democratic candidate. this was a race that going into it, we saw many of these attacks telegraphed in the weeks and

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