those four, they feel that nevada is republicans' best pickup opportunity. they might have said georgia a couple of weeks ago, but a lot of the headlines recently obviously not great for the candidate there. it's looking like that could be, you know, the one race that this all comes down to, and i think, you know, democrats would like to see their candidate performing better than she appears to be right now. >> the ap had a really good story about how it's a test of the political machine once put together by the later senate majority leader kenneth reid, and can they propel the democratic candidate over the line. we'll be watching. lachlan mar kay, thank you for joining us, and thanks to you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. right here in georgia, there were tens of thousands of illegal votes cast and counted. we were up 10,315 ball lots cast by individuals whose name and

date of birth matches a georgia resident who died in 2020. 2,506 ballots were cast by individuals whose name and date of birth matches an incarcerated felony. 4,502 illegal ballots were cast by individuals who do not appear on the states voter rolls. >> that's january 4th, donald trump, two days before the january 6th attack on the capitol speaking in georgia and making those claims about election fraud in georgia he knew were false, and now a judge says trump and his legal team also knowingly made those false claims in court. that's a problem. we'll have some new reporting on that. plus, an eye opening conversation with pennsylvania democrats. is abortion really a make or break issue for them in the midterms? and should president biden run for reelection? we'll play for you what voters

are saying in a new focus group with elise jordan. and when asked if he would vote for trump if he runs for reelection, former vice president mike pence dodges the question and instead, hint at his own possible run. we'll have that for you in a moment. republicans split over whether to continue providing aid to ukraine if they win control of the house in the midterm elections. meanwhile, president biden is speaking out after vladimir putin declared martial law over parts of ukraine. russia is now claiming illegally as its own. we will have the latest there. good morning, welcome to "morning joe," it is thursday, october 20th, along with joe and me, we have former aide to george w. bush white house elise jordan, and the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," and author of the best seller "the big lie," jonathan lemire, and associate professor of political science at fordham university, christina greer. mika has the morning off.

joe, we'll get this out of the way at the top. yankees did fall in game one of the alcs, 4-2 to the evil houston astros last night. i was talking to jonathan earlier, the cheating jokes are fun, real, and true, but the fact of the matter is the astros are just really really good. >> i'm not so sure about that, willie. i don't know if you ever saw a movie called "it's a wonderful life" but at the end, jimmy stewart holds his daughter up, and she goes, listen, daddy, every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings. i held up little jack last night, papa. he's 6'3" now. >> he's like 6'5". >> yeah, he is, jack, look, every time the astros wins, america loses part of its collective soul, yes, a part of the soul dies, when the cheaters win, we all die. bit by bit by bit. it was a good game. but, i mean, really, seriously,

how do you ever get past that when you know, you know, this can really help us in houston. there are probably two or three guys on that team that should have been banned from baseball or at least taken out for a couple of years. cheating at the highest level at the american league championship. so, yeah, i mean, it would have been a lot easier to get past this if the astros had gotten past this several years ago, and said we really really screwed up. we cheated. we're sorry. altuve, you have to put him at the middle of all of that, and by the way, i don't even like the yankees, and i'm saying this. and i'm not going to lemire, because lemire rooted against the yankees right after september 11th, when was the manager of arizona.

why do we even talk to lemire about this. willie, you don't have to say it. by the way, the buzzer at the beginning, i was flinching every time trump said something wrong. that was me in every math class after 8th grade. what's the correct answer, joey, all bad. but should we let lemire talk on this yankees thing or not? >> let's just, again, put on the record, he was the only non-arizona resident rooting for the dbacks, this is october of 2001, remember, how you felt the days after 9/11, everyone was rooting for the yankee, except for jonathan lemire, rooting for the dbacks. >> unless you're from arizona or an active member of al qaeda, everybody else was pulling for the new york yankees. and i even think you had to be like one of the top three to be

so coldhearted to be cheering against the yankees right after september 11th, but jonathan, that was you. that was you. i'm sure you were thrilled last night. >> what say you? >> i'm going to offer a contrarian view. at a time of crisis, september 11th, it taught me that i really hate the yankees, and i'm going to say last night, there's been some comparisons here, the yankees astro series, measles versus mumps, iran versus iraq. the only comparison i have is 1980 u.s. olympics men's hockey team, the soviet union and the new york yankees are so -- the astros are terrible and they cheat. that said, i have my entire life rooted against the yankees, i'm not going to start pulling for them now. i didn't in 2001, and i'm not going to do so now. this may be the new england patriots fan in me talking here,

just because there are accusations of cheating, doesn't mean you're not really good. they fired the manager, general manager got suspended. none of the players did, that's certainly true, but they are still a terrific organization, though an extremely unlikable team. for me, though, they have my support for this woke and this week only, and then i will root against them in the world series. >> this is negative partisanship that is destroying our nation. go ahead. >> i don't know if i can get over this. did lemire support going into afghanistan in 2021. this is changing the way that i look at you. >> wow. >> it is a baseball only conversation, but yes, if al qaeda were to play the yankees, i probably would root for them. >> i'm going to pull us out of this. you know, willie, you and i often when we go down to the orphanage early in the show, we'll read bible verses but also

go on instagram because the gram sometimes has, you know, has some real keen insights that help us, i don't know, just kind of figure out how to get through the day more effectively. adam just posted yesterday something that applies to jonathan's stuck in the mud thinking, and i want to read this, just posted yesterday by adam. adam says confirmation bias, jonathan, is twisting the facts to fit your beliefs. critical thinking is bending your beliefs to fit the facts. stop rooting for cheaters, jonathan. >> go astros. >> without mika here it's going to be a long morning. we begin with new evidence connected to donald trump's efforts to overturn the federal election. trump signed legal documents

claiming voter fraud knowing the information was false, the case is part of a records dispute between the house committee investigating january 6th and the architect of the plan to overturn the election, john eastman. the judge ordered eastman to turn over 33 new documents, including four e-mails that the judge says demonstrate an effort by trump and his attorneys to press false claims in federal court. according to the ruling, one of the documents included an e-mail exchange that eastman tells members of trump's legal team that these statistics they were about to cite alleging voter fraud in georgia were false. in a december 31st e-mail, eastman writes this quote, although the president signed a verification for the state court filing back on december 1st, he has been made aware that some of the allegations have been inaccurate. for him to sign a new verification with that knowledge would not be accurate. trump signed the new verification anyway, swearing under oath the false information was correct. according to the judge, quote,

the e-mails show that president trump knew the specific numbers of voter fraud were wrong but continued to tout the numbers both in court and to the public. the court finds that these e-mails are sufficiently related to and in furtherance of a conspiracy to defraud the united states. an attorney for eastman and a spokesperson for trump did not immediately respond to requests for comments. joe, here we sort of see in writing what we knew all along, that donald trump knew he lost and was searching and fishing for information, even if it was completely invented to make his point that he won. >> it's still stark, and we get the documentary evidence when you see it written down on the page when the judge says what we all know and says it in a court of law that donald trump lied to the court. he knew he was lying to the court. he did it anyway. this is also the same judge who back in march said it's more likely than not that donald trump committed crimes trying to stop the vote on january 6th.

let's bring in "new york times" congressional reporter luke broadwater, a lot to digest here. a judge saying trump lied to the court, he knew he lied to the court. and this same judge saying earlier that it's more likely than not that trump committed a crime on january 6th. >> yes, hi, good morning. the ruling is really striking for a number of reasons. one, i think, was that e-mail you highlighted from john eastman. you know, viewers may remember him as the architect of the plan to overturn the election. this is a guy who is advising donald trump in every way possible to try to stay in office. and even was sending e-mails to greg jacob, the lawyer for mike pence as the capitol was under siege blaming mike pence for the capitol siege, not donald trump. the fact that john eastman would send an e-mail saying donald

trump should not sign the false claims because we now know these are false is quite striking and does line up with the evidence we have seen from bill barr, from other top officials at the justice department and the white house counsel's office who told donald trump directly that the things he was saying about widespread election fraud were just flatly false and he should stop saying them. >> i guess the question is where are the consequences, there's a mountain of evidence, you've got donald trump on tape talking to the georgia secretary of state saying find me the 11,000 votes to flip the state. you've got e-mail, documentary evidence showing his own attorneys saying yeah, we're making up these statistics to support a false claim. where does the rubber meet the road. who's building this case, and will donald trump ever have to face it? >> right. i think what we've seen so far is that the january 6th committee's actions have served as a road map for both the

justice department and the local prosecutors this georgia. and this specifically is something that concerns georgia, so i assume that they will take high interest of these e-mails which are now ordered to be released by a federal judge. we know that a group of attorneys for the january 6th committee has been tasked with coming up with a criminal referral, whether there should be one, exactly what the charges should be, and what is the evidence that supports those charges, and so we could see that coming out of the committee to the justice department as well. this same judge who said that he believed that donald trump more likely than not obstructed an official proceeding of congress, and defrauded the american people now is putting more evidence on the bone to support one of those charges. we haven't seen all of these e-mails yet that the judge has ordered to release, but the one that was included in the ruling

yesterday is quite revealing as to donald trump, what he should have known, what he did know, and what john eastman should have known and did know. >> luke, what are the potential repercussions for knowingly signing a false document, if donald trump did know and he continued to push this information forward through the legal system? what are the consequences potentially? >> right. well, there have been a number of consequences against donald trump's lawyers. there have been complaints that have been filed with various bars across the country seeking to disbar or discipline many of them. some have been hauled in before grand juries to testify. whether there will actually be consequences for donald trump himself since he did sign this document i think, you know, remains in question. there are many arms of the justice department and other

investigations that have been looking into trump, but to yet, no one has really pulled the trigger or got in too close to the former president to hold him accountable in any way. and so i think a lot of the country is asking that same question, can you get away with things again and again and again over a number of years, and there not be any consequences, and you know, i guess we're going to have to wait and see exactly what law enforcement will do about this. >> again, trump did sign the document anyway knowing it was false. that verification, "new york times" congressional reporter, luke broadwater, thank you so much, we appreciate it. the editor of "on politics" the news letter for the "new york times" has new analysis for the paper this morning about the midterm elections that quote the democrats fear red october has arrived. blake writes quote here's the thing about elections when they break, they usually break in one direction. right now all the indicators on my political dash board are blinking red, as in towards republican. first there's inflation, it

hasn't gone away as the biden administration has hoped, and crime has moved up the ladder of issues that matter to voters. democrats bet heavily that widespread anger over the supreme court's reversal of roe v. wade would drive voters away from the republican party. it might have been a smart move in an otherwise brutal year for the party but has come at a cost, the abortion ads has taken resources away for opposing policies democrats passed in congress this year. finally, there's the historical pattern of midterm elections which tend to be referendums on the party in power. as the polls move the gop's way, this election is looking a lot more normal than it might have seemed over the summer. for democrats hoping this midterm election might be different than others, normalcy is bad news. we're going to get focus groups out of pennsylvania that show this as well. abortion, red hot over the summer and important to some

voters, may not be as persuasive a voting issue as democrats hoped it might be. >> and you're hearing it everywhere. it actually is fascinating the last couple of days in particular. democratic consultants from oregon to new york state in the near state of panic yesterday in new york state. we heard about a new poll showing that the governor, kathy hochul in trouble, and congressional candidates across new york, that's dragging them down. we have heard it in wisconsin. things are going ron johnson's way, dramatically right now, according to, again, consultants. pennsylvania has gotten really tight. the republicans feel good about georgia. feel good about ohio. feel good about a lot of races there. but there is a caveat. and always bring a caveat. these caveats, remember in 1998,

during impeachment, democrats were preparing for a massive loss. everybody in the political world was saying that it was breaking hard for republicans, and it was going to be devastating for bill clinton and the democrats. and newt gingrich who was crowing a few days before the election about how great the election was going to be, was run out of washington a couple of days later because republicans performed so badly, and even in 2000, i heard one report after another that republicans were going to get destroyed. people in leadership and the house leadership said the polls were bleeding against them so badly they thought the democrats might pick up 30, 40 seat, and we saw just the opposite happen. so, again, yes, things look like they're breaking republicans' way, but as tom brokaw told us

in 2008, you know, sometimes you have to just wait until voters vote to see what happens. it's once again, turnout, isn't it. >> always, joe. first things first, go mets. secondly, i think it's really important, though, that the democrats make sure that, you know, this is always about turnout, and so while the roe v. wade decision is incredibly important to democrats, you know, we know that most voters go to the polls based on their pocketbook issues. and so if we know that republicans are going to blame inflation, and all, you know, of the past trump policies on joe biden, democrats need to make sure they can walk and chew gum at the same time. we know that the fears of crime are latent sub texts that have a racialized history this this -- in this country. so walking voters through the perception of crime and where there is crime. also, the economy is much stronger under joe biden. we know that he's not giving tax breaks to his friends.

we know this debt relief for a lot of the folks that have student loans is going to do exponential wonders for their futures. democrats have been poor on messaging. we have to make sure we don't write off the election before november 8th. there are a lot of people interested in the future of the country, not just economically but the soul of the nation as joe biden says. we can't say just because historically the party in power does lose seats, we have to wait until people go to the polls on november 8th and hopefully enough democrat and moderate republicans and independents are motivated to really shore up the foundation of this nation and move in a much better direction than donald trump has been trying to drag us into. >> there's been a direct correlation this year between the polls and the price of gas. when the gas prices were high, democrats suffered. gas prices have gone up in recently weeks, and president biden announced they will be

tapping the petroleum reserves to mitigate damage caused by the opec plus decision of a few weeks ago. but that is by far the central economic issue, it seems, for voters. so weigh in on that but one other thing too, there is this hope among democrats that the abortion issue has led to new voters to register. voters not being picked up in the polls. there could be still a late surge of particularly women voters going for team blue in november. what do you think? >> right. first things first, we know people go to the polls based on pocketbook issues. if the price of gas is coming up or down, we know that people actually pay attention to those things. i think, jonathan, we have two things at one, the reality and perception. even though joe biden has been doing what he can to stave off inflation, to make sure gas prices go down, there's a perception that everything is more expensive. there is a perception that folks are struggling on a day-to-day

basis. that's something he has to combat. articulate a vision how we can move economically in our personal lives. as far as the abortion conversation, i don't understand why democrats can't walk and chew gum at the same time. it's not a conversation about women. it's about men and their economic futures as well. so, you know, yes, it is about female autonomy, and our right to choose, but i don't understand how democrats don't zoom out 30,000 feet and make a much larger conversation about what this looks like for families in general. this is a party when we think about republicans who don't believe in a social safety net, who don't believe in public education and shoring up the future of our young people, who don't believe in climate change and making sure that these young people they want born into this nation actually have a future to look into. why don't we have a much larger, complex conversation. it's difficult, but not impossible. why don't we do that for men and

women, galvanized and bring in other people for their own futures. this election is really about not just the economics of the nation. but about where we're going. if we don't get this election correct, november 2024, will set us back generations. >> after the dobbs decision, democrats said okay, this is the issue. this is it. we're running through the fall on this, and it has helped many candidates in many places, but you went to pennsylvania and talked to some swing voters who said what about that topic? >> it was interesting. actually, we interviewed four different groups of the electorate in pennsylvania. we started out in philadelphia. we spoke to urban african-american voters in philly. we spoke to some swing voters from bucks county, a competitive suburb, and we went to pittsburgh, and spoke to women swing voters and then to trump supporters and a lot to say on abortion from all of those groups. but i want to go specifically to this one just snippet of what

happened when we asked swing voters from bucks county if they were going to vote based on abortion, and let's watch that. >> will any of you vote specifically based on a politician's views on abortion? >> no. >> strictly, no. >> if the choice is pro life or pro choice, and they're only pro life with no other circumstance, i would never vote for them. so, yes, i would make that decision solely on that because that's a line i'm unwilling to cross. >> i agree. >> so that's bucks county, those are the swing voters who decide statewide presidential elections, obviously, so what was on their mind when you talked to them, abortion important to them, but other issues perhaps more so. >> and there's certainly a lot of passion about abortion, but they're upset about crime, and they say that crime is going up in bucks county, and that's also what we heard in more visceral

terms from the after can african-american voters in philadelphia, describing the day-to-day crime wave they're experiencing and you've got that, inflation, the cost of gas going up, the cost of groceries really being a concern too. so there are a host of issues that voters are navigating as they make their decisions. >> it's so interesting, and joe, you were talking about the governor's race in new york, when you look at the polling where lee zeldin has closed the gap, governor hochul has the lead, but crime, above inflation, which is fascinating. >> when i campaigned, i knocked on doors, 10,000 doors in my first campaign and i never needed to take polls. you talk to enough people, even in one day and you start to get a sense of what's concerning them and not concerning them. elise it's fascinating that you talk about crime.

what's fascinating is in 2020, republicans ran on a slogan. defund the police, despite the fact that every democratic leader i had on here, i said do you support defunding the police. and people like jim clyburn would go the opposite direction and say, no, we need reform, but we need to actually fund the police more because it's people of color that are the victims of crime more often than not, and it's something that reverend sharpton has always said. but i will tell you, the last week talking about knocking on doors and getting anecdotal evidence, which always found, you hear it enough, like it's on people's mind when they vote. i have heard from one democrat after another democrat who work for democrats, when i was in washington, when i'm in new york, when i'm in other parts of the country, they're not saying, hey, let's talk politics. they're all talking about crime.

hey, did you hear there was a shooting in such and such. yesterday mika got a call from somebody in washington, you know, connected with a powerful democrat. her house was broken into. you know, it's bizarre. i'm hearing a different story every day, and when people are talking about crime, they're not connecting it to the election. they're just saying, my god, things are getting really bad here. again, the irony in 2020 is republicans had this vapid slogan, defund the police that weirdos and freaks and city council implemented into law, and national democrats didn't. this year may be the year that crime does have an impact, especially in places like wisconsin, and places like pennsylvania. the suburbs, because what's happening in philadelphia, and how that's -- and in new york

state, too. >> joe, before i sat down with the voters in philadelphia, i just took a look at the crime statistics for philly over the last year just because, you know, i have a little bit of a knee jerk reaction after the whole american carnage era, and know how crime is sometimes used by certain politicians, and the statistics are pretty troubling, and then when you hear the stories directly from voters, from all stripes and all political persuasions you, really get the sense that this is the issue of the 2022 midterms. >> and, you know, christine, this morning before i came on the show, because i have been hearing this so much, you also hear from progressives that crime is actually worse per capita in red state america, states that voted for donald trump. i tweeted out a study, this study claims that crimes the

highest in eight of the ten states where it's the highest, they're red states that voted for donald trump. jacksonville had a higher rise of murders than san francisco. despite the fact they're about the same. so i've heard this, but if that is, in fact, the case, and i asked, has "the new york times" written a story on this, has "the washington post" written a story on this, has the "way too early" written a story on this, because i would love to hear some context. all i hear is crime's going up, and they believe it's going to impact democratic candidates disproportionately. >> joe, i think it will impact how people think about particular candidates when they go to the polls, and jonathan capehart, your league and i talked about this a bit a few sundays ago, but here's the thing, you know, many voters aren't single issue voters, so they also have to take all of this into account when they're going to cast their ballot.

crime is incredibly important. when there are financial strains, crimes go up. people get desperate and this is when petty crime can turn into violent crimes in cities and suburbs when the economy is making people feel a little unsure, but i think we also have to look at the totality of things, there are many voters who will say, well, you know what, yes, i am feeling a little strained at the grocery store or the gas pump, but i also want to actually have autonomy over my own body, and here we are. i think we have to be honest about, you know, the partisanship of so many voters. they will not necessarily be swayed. for the few people who are independent and confused as to which party they want to support, i think they have to ask themselves, you know, looking at the larger picture, are you really supporting a party that says they are anti-immigrant, in so many

candidate's cases, anti-semitic, and they don't believe in a more inclusive future or going with a party trying to get their footing and trying to figure out the diversity of all stripes, in not just the party, but the nation. so yes, crime and economic issues will be at the top of the ticket, but we have to hopefully get some democrats to on a micro level, to really inspire people to turn out. that is the key. we can talk about these issues in focus groups and a vacuum. we need to translate on people getting up on november 8th and casting a ballot. >> we're talking right now, "the new york times" is riding what we're hearing from democratic consultants off the record. what we're hearing from republican consultants that, things really seem to be breaking the republicans' way. it depends on how many people watching today, watching news

over the next couple of weeks, decide to get up and vote. if young people are going to break past trend asks get out and vote. there are always surprises. like i said in 2020, it was actually people around kevin mccarthy and the republican leadership that said the final weekend, the polls are all breaking so badly against us, we're going to get wiped out. the opposite happened a couple of days later. you never know. one other thing that i thought was fascinating, i think it's still going to be a sleeper issue. in 2020, i was shocked how big of an issue covid was in miami and the miami-dade area. i heard one politician after another, one consultant after another, one pollster after another voting against democrats because they blamed democrats

for shutting down their schools. they blamed democrats for shutting down their businesses. so that is of course -- donald trump was president at the time, but democrats certainly were more aggressive in many of these areas. they're these sleeper issues that sometimes don't even show up in polls, which is all to say don't get discouraged by what you're hearing or don't get too excited by what you're hearing, because, again, as tom said, you never know until the voters have their say. >> always wise to listen to tom brokaw. to your point about covid in schools, ask glenn youngkin about that. it's why he's the governor in the state of virginia in large part. to you as a mets fan, there's always next year, good luck. >> go mets. still ahead on "morning joe," chairman of the democratic congressional campaign committee, sean patrick maloney

will join us to talk about all of this and whether his party can hold the house in november. and house minority leader kevin mccarthy warned republicans will not write a blank check for ukraine. that comment appears to be causing a new rift within the gop. we're digging into the fallout there. also ahead, embattled britain prime minister liz truss facing growing calls to resign. one conservative lawmaker warns she may have only a few hours to turn the ship aroundment we'll -- around. we'll have the very latest from the uk when "morning joe" comes back. ry latest from the uk when "morning joe" comes back helps what's going on insid. we'll have the very latest from the uk when "morning joe" comes back. we'll have the very latest the uk when "morning joe" comes back. m the uk when "morning joe" comes back graine days and the majority of people reduced them by 50 to 100%. qulipta® blocks cgrp a protein believed to be a cause of migraines. qulipta® is a preventive treatment for episodic migraine. most common side effects are

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it's the subway series menu. 12 irresistible subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet! it has been a night of astonishing scenes at westminster, outside the parliament lobbies in a supposed vote of confidence in the government. the deputy chief whip was reported to have left the scene saying i'm absolutely effing furious.

i just don't effing care anymore before he resigns along with the chief whip, but we have just been told they have officially unresigned. the home secretary has, however, definitely gone. in short, it is total, absolute, abject chaos. >> that was yesterday's i tv newscast, there was man handling in parliament. british prime minister liz truss is standing her ground after she faces fury over a botched economic plan, calling herself a fighter, not a quitter. it was the first time she attended a session of the prime minister's questions since treasury chief jeremy hunt recalled the tax cut package truss proposed a month ago. she apologized to parliament and admitted making mistakes. many opposition leaders want her to resign. >> i have been very clear that i am -- mr. speaker -- that i am

sorry, and that i have made mistakes. >> last week, the prime minister ignored every question put to her. instead she repeatedly criticized labor's plan for a six-month freeze on energy bills. this week, the chancellor made it her policy. how can she be held to account when she's not in charge? so why is she still here? >> mr. speaker. mr. speaker. i am a fighter, not a quitter. i have acted in the national interest to make sure that we have economic stability. >> we need prime ministers questions in america, let me put that to the side. the turmoil happening the same day truss's interior minister resigned citing a breach of government rules.

braverman's departure comes five days after truss fired her economic chief over the chick package that started turbulence. chaos. >> we showed part of the clip where the head of labor said the chancellor of the ex-checker is gone. tax cuts are gone. they're all gone. so why is she still here. a question that not only labor is asking but the torys are asking as well. there was one conservative member of parliament after another going in front of bbc cameras talking about what a complete disaster this has been, and i suspect this is the problem, willie, when you decide to select your replacement for a prime minister that won in a landslide victory by just going to a very small percentage of

members of the conservative party to cast that vote. it's absolute chaos, and this is what they've gotten. and it's got so bad for her yesterday that she vowed to keep a certain policy in place, and then her chancellor came later and reversed the position, cut the position while she sat meekly behind him. it's really, again, it's so bad, i just don't know how she survives. >> yeah, that head of lettuce is looking pretty good in the race to survive right now. let's bring in cnbc's juliana tattlebom, live from london. >> her premiership is in peril. there's no doubt about it, you asked the very important question, why is she still

standing given all of the backlash against her and her government putting forward the mini budget on september 23rd where there's clearly been a huge amount of pushback, and the short answer is there's no unity candidate. there is no unified consensus within the conservative party over who could replace her. it has been an extraordinary series of events in the last few weeks, and the last 24 hours. you mentioned the highlights. liz truss started the day on the offensive, facing down that grilling in parliament where she said she is a fighter. then her home secretary resigned and now a number of mps have officially said that they no longer have confidence in the prime minister and are now calling for her resignation. but, again, what is keeping her in power right now, it largely seems to be that there is no clear replacement for her. there are four front runners to the uk media have latched on to, and believed to be in the running. we've got jeremy hunt, the now

chancellor of the exchequer who she replaced, penny, the former chancellor under boris johnson, and believe it or not, boris johnson himself. there are a number of conservative party members who are calling for boris johnson to return to the helm. he had overwhelming support from the public at the beginning of his tenure as prime minister. one problem i would throw into the mix is the torys have suffered greatly in the eyes of the public over the course of this saga. the torys are now more than 30 points behind the opposition labor party in polls. they have to be extremely careful about moving forward. not only about what happens to liz truss but the torys party. >> this could amount to a bit of a vacation for boris johnson, goes away for a while, and comes back. thank you so much. we appreciate it. joe, you were talking about conservatives even who want to see liz truss go. one conservative mp names

charles walker talking about the prime minister. >> i think it's a sham and a disgrace. i think it's utterly appalling. i'm live, and you know, i really shouldn't say this, but i hope all those people that put his -- liz truss, i hope it was worth it to sit around the cabinet table because the damage they have done to our party is extraordinary. >> i'm sorry, it's very difficult to convey, you look just furious. >> i am. i've had enough. i've had enough of talentless people putting their tick in the right box. not because it's in the national interest but because it's in their own personal interest. >> well, joe, again, that is a member of liz truss's own party speaking about the prime minister and the people who put her there. >> and the numbers, willie, are just absolutely horrific. they are 30 points down right now, and you look at some of the

other candidates that have been suggested and many of them seem also to be over matched. so many people were pushed to the side when boris johnson became prime minister. you had many torys that had worked for thatcher and even before thatcher, that resigned. and so right now, they find themselves in a position, it's kind of like this show, why are we still on after 15 years, because they can't find anybody else to fill four hours. why is liz truss still prime minister this morning because they can't find anybody else that can do a better job filling however many hours a day she works. my suggestion, willie, is in case of an emergency, break glass and get john major. place holder, just have john major there as a place holder. say, children, children, i'll

stick around for a year, year and a half, maybe we can get the 30 point deficit to a 10 point deficit. couldn't be worse than candidates we're talking about now. >> an adult in the room. >> i really like sunak. i think he could do great work for the uk, and i mean, the reason he didn't get the tap the first go around was because he was seen as too ruthless and anti-boris. that's the whole reason they got stuck with liz in the first place. i think it could be good for the uk, even though we have no electoral vote there. >> for comedic value alone, boris johnson, just to see the headlines and tabloid, and liz truss and the lettuce. it's not just the one tablet anymore. they're latching on to liz truss

and the lettuce. boris, the secret perhaps really. >> a split vote here. we will see. >> this is kind of like -- lemire is kind of going with rod blago. has it been so long since i pro announced rod's name. send him over there. it's pretty bad, though. you thought that with boris johnson leaving that things couldn't get much worse. they got a lot worse. i wonder if some of those people wished they still had boris there right now. >> we'll see how much longer she survives. >> i doubt it. coming up here, jon meacham continues his residency, it's a residency like celine dion in vegas, here on "morning joe," for his new book on president

abraham lincoln. today we'll focus on the up hill battle for lincoln's republican party in the midterms when he was president and show comparisons to what democrats are facing this time around. president biden is expected to discuss infrastructure during a visit to pennsylvania today, on the heels of a major announcement aimed at curbing rising gas prices. the president's chief of staff ron klain will be our guest live from the white house. "morning joe" is coming right back. te house "morning joe" is coming right back if you still have symptoms of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or active psoriatic arthritis after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. stand up to your symptoms with rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that tackles pain, stiffness, swelling. for some, rinvoq significantly reduces ra and psa fatigue. it can stop further irreversible joint damage.

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xfinity rewards. our thanks, your rewards. welcome back to "morning joe." look at the beautiful shot of capitol hill. let's bring in a guy who is in residence, this is like, i don't know, maybe it's like elvis.

elvis in vegas, right, or sinatra at the sands. >> it's possible, joe, that some of your viewers may think it's more like guantanamo. >> could be. just stay in there. let's stick -- let's stick to the vegas analogies, might be safer. let's bring in presidential historian, jon meacham, he's back for more on his new book entitled "and there was light" abraham lincoln and the american struggle. the printing press keeps running out of ink. they keep printing more. it's extraordinary how many books this guy is selling. willie, we may have to go down to his palatial estate and just sort of soak in the, you know, go to the library and that corinthian leather, smell the leather bound books, it will be great. >> he sits in that leather chair, he's got the glasses at the end of his nose, a cardigan, a cigar, fire in the fireplace,

reading the great works, it's something to be hold. >> there is a lovely feature in el decor on jon meacham's office that i think viewers should google if they want to read it. >> i think we can keep moving. >> go ahead, joe. sorry. >> why don't we keep moving with the conversation with the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. willie, you know, i have been in this business now for decades. i don't know if you know before i was a public servant, so, you know, i've asked -- i've had people ask, you know, would you like me to do your portrait. last time i was at six flags over georgia, got off the great american screen machine, they have me in the go cart, a little go cart, but it's me. so that's a portrait we have hanging up over our fireplace, but reverend al, he got a

portrait done too. i don't think it's as impressive as mine, but let's show it to you. he's immortalized in an oil painting. it's actually in the international hall of honors in the martin luther king chapel at morehouse college in atlanta. obviously such a prestigious college where martin luther king jr. went. and rev, great likeness, but also what a great honor. >> it was a tremendous honor, and a surprise when dean lawrence carter told me they wanted to do this. dr. king went there to that school. and many of the great black clergy men went there that i grew up being mentored by. i was very moved, very honored and i wanted to, aside from other things, to have jon meacham have to look at something when he goes to do his book on dr. king. >> oh, yeah. >> inspirational.

>> exactly. >> it is inspiration. well, that is such a great honor, reverend al, and we're so grateful you're here this morning. >> thank you. >> to talk about a fascinating topic on the civil war. you know, john, -- jon, we always look back at these figures in history. we never realize how close they came to either not getting elected or failing in a monumental task that changed america. the thing about lincoln, though, that was so surprising, and again, like i said in the year or so i studied, just exhausting. the guy was getting picked at constantly from all sides. pulled apart. and going into 1864, he didn't really even think he could win his own party's nomination, and even when he did win his own party's nomination, most people thought he's probably going to lose reelection, and then

atlanta happened. and then sherman happened, but just talk about the history of the midterms. you know, clinton had horrible midterms. before that, reagan, who won 49 states two years later had horrible midterms. barack obama who, you know, i guess he's only president since fdr to win majority, or ike , to win majorities twice. even great historical figures from the 19th century. like lincoln, the greatest. he, too, terrible midterms. >> lbj wins the largest majority in american history in 1964, and then loses 66 seats in the house in 1966, and reagan becomes governor of california. that's another way of looking at that era. a thousand days was the kennedy administration, it was also the only period where johnson had full dominance of american

politics, and you had an immediate backlash then. lincoln, i mean, we look at him now. there's the monument. it's not as nice as the sharpton portrait. but it works in washington. and you've got this notion that he was a god-like figure. he came to power with 39% of the vote. several southern states didn't even bother to hold elections. the south goes out in the winter of '60, '61, and in the midterm electors of 1862 and off year elections in '63, he loses, the party loses the governorship of new york and new jersey, which were kind of the virginia of the era as a kind of harbinger, and loses effective majority, loses official majority control of the house of representatives. so lincoln had a tough go of this politically. you're right, half the country

had seceded, wanted to break up the constitution to defend slavery and the perpetuation of human enslavement, and in the north, this idea that everybody was walking around the north, you know, carrying signs for abolition is crazy. there were horrible draft riots in this city where black people, innocent black people were attacked because the copperhead interest, as they were called, named after the snake, what lincoln called the fire in the rear. he had a white opposition in the north that was not at all interested in fighting in this war. his steps on habeas corpus, his steps on free speech, all of these things, his economic policies were a source of immense controversy in realtime. so the idea that abraham lincoln came down from, you know, left springfield, went to olympus, freed the slaves, went to the

theater, died. no, no, no, it was a tumultuous and difficult time. >> that's the thing about reading your book and any history book really is that the oil painting or the statue or the story we tell ourselves is always much more complicated. how did he do it, all those factions you're talking about, forget even the south that was against him, in the north, how did lincoln pull them together. >> there was just enough of his kind of centrist republican sensibility to push forward. but as joe says, 39% of the vote, and heading into 1864, i think one of the most important moments in american history, arguably, have been in the middle of august, 1864. the chairman of the republican national committee, henry raymond, also the editor of "the new york times," which tells you how long ago this was, goes to washington to meet with lincoln and says, if you keep

emancipation as a condition for peace, you will lose this election. lincoln writes the famous blind memorandum where he says it looks as though this administration will be defeated but i will obey the constitution. he believed if the presidential election was not legitimate, if it was not accepted, then what they were fighting for would fall apart. he was willing to follow the rule of law. he was willing to put the constitution ahead of his own interests. and then, as joe says, atlanta fell, and the politics shifted. but what lincoln said in that moment after he had met with frederick douglass, was i cannot ask men, black men, to fight in the union army if they do not have the prospect of emancipation because men act on incentive, a fundamental, political insight that had a moral component as well.

>> jon, if you could just round out a little bit, because obviously we hear about those that are telling him to be cautious, to pull back on emancipation, but again, just so people understand what a fiery trial it was, what lincoln walked through, he also had on the other hand, he had evangelicals. he had new england abolitionists pulling at him, basically saying the guy was a sinner, that he was too cautious. he was weak. he was too timid, and he needed to be more aggressive moving towards abolition, so you had this new england wing, this religious evangelical wing that was pushing him hard towards abolition. on the other side, of course, you have the democrats in the north even. the democrats who were, my god,

not even, you know, far from being enlightened, and again, that pull and push was so constant that at one point lincoln tells visitors coming in, i'm trying to carry everybody on my shoulders across niagara falls, all right, on a tight rope. it basically says back off, i'm doing it the only way i know how. >> absolutely. and yes, he was buffeted on -- i want to be very careful here as i know you do, he was buffeted on all sides, that is not to say that both sides had a legitimate point of view. right. there was the white south where you and i come from, joe, was openly fighting to preserve human enslavement and end the constitutional experiment toward a more perfect union, however imperfect that experiment is and however much work we have to do now. that said, he had people, in our

terms, to his left, saying he was too cautious, too moderate. he had people who had seceded, and then he had this middle, not middle, but this other element on the spectrum that were basically copperheads, and they were in indiana, they were, you know, this was not just a northern elite thing. remember, racism and the conviction that the white race was supreme and had to be supreme in civil and social matter was the ambient reality of america in the 19th century, and we don't do ourselves any favors by not saying that. lincoln was believed, for a long time, that the way to end slavery was to prevent its spread to hope that by building and what was a cordon of fire

around it, it would extinguish itself, it was called the scorpion sting, and then, and let's be very clear, black people would under his plan, voluntarily leave the united states of america and go to an offshore colony. and some folks want that to have been an early thing, no, no, no. this went way into the war. and so lincoln's defenders say, well, it was for political effect. here's the thing, as we all know, you can't credit what people say when you agree with it, and then discredit it just because -- and say, oh, that was just for political effect when you don't want to accept it. right. >> right. >> so this is not a warm story.

this is a real story. >> yeah, it's a difficult story. it's a difficult story in part because with lincoln, he was talking about colonization into his presidency. and there are also times, and we've talked about this before, where whenever he seemed the least interested in emancipation, all of those around him said, oh, my god, he's playing to the racist country, i don't care about this, i don't care about whether slaves are emancipated or not. i'm only doing this for military purposes, and that was, again, the tight rope that he was walking, and oddly enough, rev, unlike jefferson, abraham lincoln did not reduce a lot of his political calculations to writing. he just didn't do it. he was -- he was a hard guy to

read. people would go into his office being frustrated because they would ask a question, and he would tell a lot of stories, but of course, again, the south, as jon said, the south obviously isn't even part of this midterm discussion. the crazy thing is that lincoln was operating in a racist north. he was from illinois. they had -- they had a vote on whether black people should be able to come into illinois or not. 70% voted to exclude blacks from illinois. so this is the environment politically that this guy was operating in, so when i'm saying he's being pulled from all sides, he's being pulled from racists not just in the south, but racists in the north, and then you've got the evangelicals up in new england that are pushing him the other direction. >> i think that is the importance of jon's book that we

don't have this kind of zealot that went to washington to free the slaves but that it was a process, and i've come to find that, joe, that great people are people that are torn and go by what they really, at the end of the day believe in, but they didn't get there by being a zealot. they got there by being torn, and i think that was the greatness of lincoln. and all the way, he was talking not just about colonizing black people offshore, they were talking about sending them to liberia, but he did end up being the one that led to emancipation, just like a hundred years later, john kennedy didn't go to washington to lead the march on washington. he came kicking and screaming into working with martin luther king. or barack obama on lgbtq rights, and i think that when we don't

tell the whole story, we rob from america the right to grow themselves, and to not feel guilty about being torn. and i think it's important what joe's raising, jon, was the north was not all abolitionists just like they're not all progressive now. the north had as many hard core slave defenders and the racists as the south did. you shouldn't rob his growth from him, as your book didn't. >> exactly. and this is a theological point because fundamentally, lincoln did what he did because he thought it was right, and he did a lot that was wrong. but as he put it moral coward es is something i think i never had. frederick douglass's view of lincoln, 1876, one of the most

important statements on the american cannon, on biography and history, how do you learn from the past, how do you judge the past, was a speech frederick douglass gave in 1876 at the dedication of the friedman's monument in washington, and he said viewed from the genuine abolition ground, lincoln was slow, tardy, dull, but when the crisis came, in fact, he did the right thing. and you don't have to embrace wholly someone from the past to acknowledge what they did well. nor do you have to cancel somebody because they got stuff wrong. because -- and this is reverend sharpton's business, not mine, but whistleblower all fallen. we're all sinners. the remarkable thing is when the sinners manage to do something

saintly. and if you get one or two, you know, maybe you get a portrait at morehouse. >> yeah, you know, rev, the thing about douglass, that frederick douglass speech that jon was talking about is of course he talked about how lincoln was viewed from a genuine abolitionist, he was cold, he was slow. he was tardy. then douglass said, but viewed from the world that he lived in. >> right. >> viewed from the political con constraints that he had, viewed from the world he lived in. not a philosopher king sitting on top of a mountain, douglass said lincoln was a

revolutionary. he was a radical. he was fiery. he was exactly what needed to be done. again, when viewed from the reality that lincoln lived in as a public figure. >> and you have to deal with the context of the time and the environment lincoln was president in, and what he grew to be president in, and i think douglass kept agitating and pushing him. i think he also at the end really respected and regarded this man as a great man. when lincoln walked over and greeted him in front of everyone. after douglas had been a critic of him, pushing him on letting blacks in the union army, pushing him on emancipation, and feeling that he wasn't moving fast enough. and then he made the definitive move that freed the slaves and put them in the union army. i think douglas was awed by the fact that this man had a lot more depth than he could recognize on the surface.

and i think that brought out the best in both douglass and lincoln. >> and i don't want to risk tying this in too neat of a bow, and as you were all talking i was thinking of something my favorite priest told me, the greatest gift is watching personal growth and the ability to grow. not to dismiss someone, so many people are unable to change throughout the course of their lifetime, and so it's this book in some sense the story of abraham lincoln's growth and progression as a moral force in america. >> it is a story of his growth as a moral force in america. the remarkable thing and the central point i hope folks take away is that he did have an anti-slavery creed. he believed it from the very beginning. he once said, i am naturally anti-slavery. and he was a lawyer who picked

his words carefully, naturally meant from birth. he found that circumstances gave him a chance to put those convictions into action. and i would just urge all of us in this hour of unfolding crisis, to remember that if you send someone to the pinnacle of power who does not have a conviction about something other than their own power and their own interests, that is potentially fatal to the american experiment in liberty. abraham lincoln was anti-slavery, he believed in the union, ran on the 13th amendment ultimately. he put something other than himself at the center of the story, and if we send people, if we give them responsibility and all they're interested in is themselves, then god help us. >> you know, willie, we've read this douglass quote once before this week. i think it bears repeating because it does such an

extraordinary job of explaining abraham lincoln, and his great, great opening to this extraordinary book by jon meacham. douglass said viewed from the genuine abolition ground, mr. lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dug, and indifferent. but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined. >> and this conversation we're having, what jon just said is not a theoretical one anymore. we're living through it as we speak. the new book is entitled, "and there was light," abraham lincoln and the american struggle. jon will be back one more day. the book is so good, i'm going to suggest an oil painting on the campus of vanderbilt

university. i'll speak to the chancellor. still ahead, john fetterman is providing new information about his health after a stroke earlier this year. we'll have those details. plus, white house chief of staff ron klain. "morning joe" will be right back. f ron klain. "morning joe" will be right back it's the subway series menu. 12 irresistible subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪

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mccaskill, and msnbc contributor, mike barnicle. claire, we're going to talk baseball, and go to the times article saying democrats are on their back heels politically. what about the game last night? the yankees and the astros. do you suspect the yankees will come back and pull this out, or is this an astros year? >> i think it's an astros year. all the teams that won more than 100 games have fallen in post season play except for the astros. i said the other day, who knew that we'd have san diego and the phillies competing for the national league pennant. i did not have that on my bingo card. soening -- so i think it's not going to surprise me if we end up with a houston, philly world series, which i think is great for baseball, frankly. not that i don't love you guys, but i think everybody gets tired

of boston, new york, and even st. louis as the teams that are always there. >> and the astros, of course, as we know, this is their first year to ever get into the playoffs. >> you're right about that. you're right about that. i'm sick of the astros, too. i wouldn't mind, but i really can't stand the yankee, sorry, willie. >> wow, team lemire. >> i wanted to see the cardinals go much deeper in the playoffs. mike, what do you think? >> oh, my dream is that the yankees beat the astros. >> there it is. >> and then the phillies beat the yankees in the world series, and that's quite a world series, philadelphia versus new york, a subway series so to speak. the series will probably end on thanksgiving eve in the snow, but that's my dream. that's my dream. >> well, that would be a flash in the past. that happened in 2009 when the yankees beat the philly for their world series this century.

unless you count 2000. but willie, the yankees are america's team at least for this series. john heilemann, there's a -- i have been hearing, john, and i'm sure you have too from democratic consultants, especially, people on both sides of pennsylvania avenue, a growing fear that democrats were really starting to lose ground in key races. the republicans now think on the senate side that they're going to sweep most of the races, including nevada. the ones we're talking about. arizona probably stays blue, but republicans feeling great about a lot of the other races. "the new york times" basically wrote that article this morning, what we have been hearing this week. i wanted to ask you about that. but of course with a word of caution, i also remember when i was in congress in '98 hearing that republicans were going to have a massive year and a couple of days later, newt gingrich was

run out of town, and in 2020, we heard democrats were going to wipe republicans out in the house. just never happened. what's your best take? what are you hearing on the ground? >> you know, i'm in georgia again for the second week having, joe, and i'll say for -- there's definitely -- we are back to the politics field very much like the pre-dobbs era. and i want to say the immediate pre-dobbs era. not like kind of right after the youngkin victory last november where there was a sense of, like, my god, there's going to be a giant red wave. but there's no question that there's a sense that where we are in that period of the spring was that the house and the senate looked really different, and i still think that's the case, which is to say the republicans have always had a -- by far the favorite to take control of the house, even at

the high end for democrats, the end of summer in august, maybe democrats have a one in four chance of taking back control of the house. now it's probably a one in ten chance of taking back control of the house. and republicans could run up big numbers on the house side. if you look at the senate races which have tightened over time, it still is the case that, you know, if you look at the races that we actually sort of thought would lean towards incumbents, like the ohio race, like the wisconsin race, where republican incumbent or open seat, i think those are probably going to stay red. i think people still think that fetterman has the advantage in pennsylvania. i think people still think north carolina is basically a toss up state. georgia still a toss up. arizona, leaning towards the blue. i agree about nevada. people think that race is likely to be a pickup for republicans. but you could find yourself easily in the senate, if you push the races where they're leaning right now, democrats pick one up in pennsylvania, republicans pick one up in nevada, and the whole senate

coming down to the race in georgia here, which is likely to go to a runoff. i think the senate races are as tight as they could possibly be, and the house, i'll say, the feeling out here on the trail is if not red wave, the prospects of large republican pickups in the house are greater than they were two months ago, even six weeks ago. >> claire, you were there in the senate in 2014, i want to ask you about 2014 and 2022, because this campaign reminds me so much, especially in the senate of 2022, those races were so tight, and then the last weekend, there was a break to republicans, just enough of a break to make it a big night for the gop. i'm wondering, even though we're hearing that abortion just isn't the issue that people thought it was going to be, even a month ago, we have a focus group that elise did that suggests the same

thing. i'm wondering if this isn't one of those issues that gets poem motivated, that's got people to go out and register to vote, and if you're talking about a one or two point difference in north carolina, in georgia, in pennsylvania, in ohio, in wisconsin, in nevada. if in some of those states it isn't enough to move them either one or two points towards the democrats. >> listen, all due respect to the "new york times," but i don't see the senate races breaking red at this moment. i mean, i think this is a significant amount of bedwetting on the part of some democratic consultants that you and i be talking to. i mean, who thought we were going to be a jump ball in north carolina. who thought that we would be this close in ohio before this all began. and, you know, katherine cortez masto, everybody acts like that's a done deal. it's not. that is an even race. it is a 50/50 race, and she is a

former prosecutor and a former attorney general that is leaning into this crime issue. and that is leaning into an issue that the republicans think is their gift for independent voters, and now you have kevin mccarthy yesterday talking about how they're going to cut off aid to ukraine, an issue that 2/3 of republicans disagree with him on. and we have an opportunity here in these last few weeks to talk about that, to talk about how out of touch republicans are when it relates to what russia is doing in ukraine, and how much america supports ukraine, guns is still a huge issue, you see val demings leaning into that, so here's the deal. we are going to win if people show up. and people need to do a gut check here and realize this isn't about how you feel about voting. this is your duty as somebody who loves this country. to show up and vote. and if people show up and vote, i think it will be a 51-52

senate for chuck schumer. >> to pick up on a couple of claire's points, white house aides, believe mccarthy will backtrack. there's so much disruption in the republican party to doing that. and that nevada senate race is just one point, so there's a lot there. but there's growing democrats concern there. we should note, for all the fears among democrats, if nevada flips, pennsylvania flips, we're 50/50. there's polling that "axios" had this morning about this as well, the black and latino communities there does not seem to be a lot of enthusiasm in those groups for democrats this fall. you travel the country more than any of us. voters you're talking to particularly in those groups, where are they standing? can democrats rely on them as they usually do? >> i spent time last week in georgia. i'll be preaching again sunday. i spent time in carolina. and i'm going to florida and

where i'm moving around in our chapters of national action network. i'm not hearing the excitement that i would think the democrats want to hear. i'm not feeling it. it's better than it was. but it's not where the turnout they're going to need. and i think one of the reasons, and i think joe discussed it at length in the first hour this morning, is that, yes, there is a real concern about racism and double standards. there's a real concern about voting rights. there's also a real concern about crime, and i think that a lot of people are saying, reverend, i get it. we've got to vote to save the democracy. but i'm scared to go to work. i'm scared when my children are out. and i don't think that it is anti-progressive to say that i think the new progressive is where you can deal with police reform and dealing with crime at the same time because guess what, the victims in the black

community of crime are blacks. you can't say on one hand i don't want brutality from law enforcement but it's all right to be brutalized by somebody that law enforcement ought to be reformed to be able to deal with them in a way that doesn't break the law and break what is human rights. so i think if they lock into real issues on the ground. that's why i call them latté liberals, get them $5 coffees out of your face and talk to real people who have to ride subways, you can talk it them about what they're concerned about. >> this is only 3 bucks for the record. this is from dunkin. >> it's 2.95, but go ahead. >> are you surprise on the topic, the head wind lee zeldin has made. he is focusing almost solely on what you're talking about, which is crime. and we've heard people say, well, there's the perception of crime being worse, and it's not

really as bad as it is. transit crime sup on the subway. that's a fact over the last year. yes, there are these awful stories that grab the headlines, but it is a problem. it is real for people who live in the city. so that is a voting issue, do you think that's going to be a make or break in new york. >> i think that's a voting issue. i think that hochul will win, but i think it's a voting issue, and i think, again, i think a lot of progressives have good crime programs. they're just not coming out with it. and i think that you can not be concerned about people without dealing with it. if karyn bass wins, for example, as mayor of l.a., the three major cities will have black mayors, eric adams in new york, and lightfoot in chicago, and bass in l.a. every time we need to do this step, no, that's against what we believe in. we do believe in fighting crime. we just don't believe in fighting it by putting someone's

knee on someone's neck or choke holding somebody. we cannot fight to put people in positions of power, whether they be black, latino, lgbtq, and then handcuff them on doing job of the citizens they have been put in charge of want them to do. >> and that's the position mayor adams has taken during his campaign and now, we have to clean up crime and we have to reform. we have heard focus groups earlier in the show, elise from the state of pennsylvania, fascinating stuff with the different groups across pennsylvania. you sat down with them and talked about president biden and how they feel about the first two years of his administration. >> yes, and it's important how the voters view president biden because he's the figure head of the democratic party, the leader of the democratic party, and as they talk about the host of issues that are really impacting their lives, crime, inflation, there are worries about access to reproductive rights.

this is weighing on their opinion of president trump, pittsburgh women swing voters, and philadelphia african-american democrats on how they view president biden. should joe biden run again. >> no. >> that was quick, wow. >> why shouldn't joe biden run again in 2020? >> because too many people will not vote for him. >> i agree. you don't know if he's really in class. >> you could put anybody up next to him, and they're going to get it. that's not good. >> a lot of people think he's mentally unwell. maybe they think it's his age, dementia, whatever f we had a doctor that would tell us it's a bad story. i think he's getting a bad wrap because of his age, i don't think he should run again. >> i think he should run, but it's going to come down to who they think will beat trump. going to find out the candidate,

who can beat him, and so far, i don't see anybody other than joe being able to do it. >> i can't speak to nobody else that's put themselves in the forefront that could rumble with trump. >> is president biden still the only democrat that you think could beat donald trump in 2020? >> it would be hard to say, we would have to see who comes forward. as much as i would love for biden to stay into power, i just don't -- i would not advise it. not just because of his age, i mean, that's part of it. but i just think that you do -- i am concerned about his health. i'm concerned about his stamina to be able to go the long haul. and that's a taxing job. period. i mean, he came into an enormous amount of issues with the pandemic and, you know, trying to get jobs back on track, and he's done a lot in a short amount of time, but i just -- i'm concerned and i see the

deterioration just from day one up until now. so more concerned about his health. >> what specifically do you see as deterioration. >> in terms of his mental stability, you know, he's walking a little bit slower, just a tad, you know, but you can see there are signs there. and i know he does his best to try to hide it or whatever you want to say about it, but i mean, his -- he's going through life changes. and that's the reality. and i just wouldn't want that amount of pressure on his life beyond another four years. >> those are democrats who support joe biden. i want to go back to the top of the first clip in pittsburgh with the swing voters, and immediately chorus of noes when you asked if he should run again. >> i was jarred by how quick it was, and these are female voters who they voted for obama some of them, some of them voted for

trump. some of them voted for clinton. a lot of them voted for biden, but they just do not see it as viable for president biden to run for a second term. they simply think he's too old, and they're not sure about his ability to do the job. >> yeah, you know, the focus group obviously pennsylvania a critical state, all of the comments were surprising, shocking, expected. all three. if you have your own focus group, as i do, as jonathan does, as willie does, just talking to ordinary people, you come away, at least i come away with the sense that this country is swimming in a rip tide, created, a psychological rip tide, caused by inflation, all sorts of problems that the country is having but overlapping that, it's a country filled with anxiety.

who we are, where are we going, what are we doing? and joe, i know that despite your exalted position, you know, you, too, are out there and you, too, encounter ordinary people, but the anxiety factor in this country among people about where are we right now, and who are we right now is really, i think, playing a part in who's going to vote, why they're going to vote, and who they're going to vote for. >> this is not an original thought by me. i have very few of them, but i heard the observation several months ago that the disconnect on joe biden, because his policies are overwhelmingly popular, the disconnect on joe biden has always been not his issues, not how effective he's been in getting bipartisan legislation passed, but whether he actually was up to the job because of his age. it's something that people

haven't talked about, but that was very stark in that focus group, and i think when he was sitting there with approval ratings at 38, 39%, and yet the legislation that he was passing was supported by 50, 60, 70% of americans, that was the disconnect. the question of whether he could -- he could do the job. now, i know that everybody thinks that history started last week. and when i bring up other examples, oh, no, no. that's just -- well, let me tell you something, i was around in 1982. mike barnicle in 1982 had just received his first social security check. there are some of us who have been around -- i'm joking, mike -- who have been around a long time, and i can tell you in 1982, ronald reagan who won a

massive landslide in 1980 and 49 out of 50 states in 1984 was being dismissed as being old, senile, out of touch, incapable of leading, and you know what if you don't want to hear that, that's fine. i'm not saying joe biden is ronald reagan. i'm just saying we've seen it time and again where this -- these are usually the most difficult days for most presidents who haven't had a war their first two years. so if biden's numbers are down or if there are people that are expressing concern about biden, whether he's able to move forward or not, a lot of it has to do with the fact that, you know, two years in, obama got completely shelacked, bill clinton, it happened in '96.

poor bill clinton, i'm sorry, bill clinton in april of '95 had to go and explain in a news conference he was still constitutionally relevant. that's how low things sunk for him, a guy who left office with a 60% approval rating. this is how people feel right now. let's see how they feel a year from now. all that being said, john heilemann, i remember a focus group that you guys did for bloomberg and it was one of the more revealing moments in 2015 when you had a group of voters in a swing state saying that donald trump was one of us. they were working class voters who said donald trump was one of us. that was a revelation at the time that something was going on there. i will say, same thing here, at least for right now, elise asks a question on whether whether

joe biden should run again, and instinctively everybody shouts no at the same time, again, just a snapshot of where we are, things may change a year from now, but you don't usually hear that. >> well, right, and i think, joe, that's the difference, you just cited a bunch of historical analogies, including the reagan analogy, the clinton analogy that in a lot of cases, at this point in the term of a presidency, things look dark for an incumbent, and often get hammered in the midterms and questions get floated about whether they should lead the party going forward. the difference in this case, and you could hear this in elise's focus groups is that when reagan, people said reagan was old and senile and had lost it in 1982, that was mostly coming from the left. he hadn't lost the republican base at that point, and you didn't have -- barack obama never lost the democratic base.

clinton never lost the democratic base. the problem with biden, to go back the earlier discussion of enthusiasm, it's not that joe biden has lost the democratic base, but the level of enthusiasm you see for him, particularly by african-americans is very tepid. that's a problem for him. because of his age, you had questions come up early in his first term, about whether people wanted biden to run again in 2024, and what you haven't heard is you haven't had the base rally around him, despite the fact that he has had a lot of wins on the board. i'm here in georgia, you ask the question, people wonder why rafael warnock last weekend in the debate with herschel walker, why he refused to answer the question of whether he wanted joe biden to run again in 2024. i thought it was political malpractice, and there's no answer other than to be with the guy who brought you in that case. you could see he thought not only would he get hit in the

right by herschel walker, he also knew there's not much enthusiasm for joe biden even in his base, and he has to get black turn out up to win this race, and there's not a lot of enthusiasm, i don't hear it in the black communities in atlanta, the kind that you had ever for barack obama and for bill clinton. that's a problem for joe biden, and a problem for rafael warnock. >> i think that he's right. there's not a lot of enthusiasm, but i would remind you in january of 2019, at a martin luther king breakfast, we had a washington national action network, joe biden told him he was thinking about running. there was no enthusiasm. a year and a half later, he got the largest number of votes a presidential candidate got in american history. don't count him out. when instability happens, you always go to grandpa to hold the

family together. >> okay. claire mccaskill, final thoughts on what you heard from the focus groups, elise's focus group? >> well, we all need to stay focused on independent voters. there is a huge number of people in america that have made up their mind. there is a very small number of americans who are going to decide who controls congress in the midterm elections. those voters, they care very much about their freedom. they care about women's rights. they care about guns. they care about crime, yes, they care about ukraine, and as long as we keep talking about those issues, we will win the majority of those voters and we may not hold the house, but we can easily hold the senate, but it's all about who shows up, and as i said before, if you love our country, it's your duty to show up. it isn't like an optional activity. you need to make it a mandatory activity in the united states of america. >> we'll find out in about two

and a half weeks, and by the way, the early voting in the state of georgia is at record numbers so far. so we will see. claire mccaskill, john heilemann, thank you both. great to see you. mike pence is dropping hints about his political future. we'll play his not so subtle comments about perhaps running in 2024. also ahead, an update on the war in ukraine, and the massive evacuations happening in the kherson region after vladimir putin declared martial law there. congresswoman and russian policy expert, mikie sherrill joins us table when "morning joe" comes right back. joins us table when "morning joe" comes right back ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters the joy of movement. keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks,

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kevin mccarthy, who wants to become the next speaker of the house, says if republicans take the gavel, america will no longer be a blank check for the war in ukraine. do you take issue with that? >> the united states throughout our history has understood we need to be the leader of the

free world. that includes being the arsenal of democracy. and in the days of ronald reagan, we understood the value of confronting the russians and communism in the world, not by necessarily fighting them directly but making sure people were fighting the communists, whether in our hemisphere or other places around the world had the resources they need. >> that was mike pence responding yesterday to kevin mccarthy saying there won't be a blank check to ukraine if republicans win back the majority. you have some new reporting on how that's going over, even among republicans. >> there's divide in the republican party. mccarthy said there wouldn't be a blank check. he has some support from the far right of the caucus. mitch mcconnell and other republicans are saying this is our responsibility, we have to keep this money going. mccarthy facing some -- mccall said take it easy here, we need to keep doing this. the white house is watching

this, knowing if the republicans take the house in january, that money may not flow as freely going forward. the aides i speak to say mccarthy will realize this is a political risk to do this, maybe he'll agree to more money, maybe a smaller number, but the fear is that for the -- for the republicans, if he cuts off that money, that would be a significant gamble for them going forward. there is a thought, though, that if the republicans take the house in january or november, in that december lame duck session, they may try to push in one more package. >> think of the message that sends to putin, if he waits through these elections, he will get to a republican house and that funding will be cut off to ukraine. cal perry has the latest on what's happening on the ground in ukraine. >> reporter: this morning the people of kherson are caught in the middle. thousands in the port city that

has been under russian occupation for months, being ordered to evacuate. some getting text messages that read, dear residents, evacuate immediately. there will be shelling of residential areas by the armed forces of ukraine. the evacuations, an apparent reaction to ukraine's counter offensive in the region, recapturing villages and farmland in recent weeks. ukrainian officials accusing russia of trying to create hysteria. it comes on the same day that vladimir putin declared martial law in four regions. i signed a decree, he said, introducing martial law into these four entities of the russian federation. under the order russia can, it says, legally seize ukrainian homes and property, move civilian populations. >> it seems his only tool available to him is to brutalize individual citizens in ukraine.

>> reporter: the russian bombardment continues. in just over a month, at least 239 drones have been shot down by air defenses according to the ukrainian military. the ones that make it past those air defenses are frequently striking infrastructure targets. 30% of power plants have been destroyed. other times, civilians pay the price. here in the capital of kyiv, eight dead in 24 hours, all the while the threat of a nuclear attack looms. children drill in a nearby school in kyiv and while bulletproof vests are necessary on the battle front, swim caps and goggles must do on the homefront. joining us now at the table, democratic congresswoman, mikie sherrill of new jersey, she's a united states navy veteran and a member of the house armed services committee. good to see you again. i'm curious what you think of kevin mccarthy's comments, that if they come to power, if he is

the speaker of the house, the blank check, as he calls it, may be gone to ukraine. that funding will be reduced or eliminated altogether. >> it shows the growing cynicism within the republican party. here is somebody who purportedly wants to be in leadership in the republican party is not there to serve the american people, not there to promote our values but it working on his own personal power within his conference, taking a dive to the right with the freedom caucus saying is he's not going to fund ukraine, he's cutting social security and medicare. to do so, he will hold the debt ceiling hostage? we know what that looks like from 2011. moody's says that could cost us 6 million jobs. this is not someone thinking about how he will govern for america, he's thinking about how he's going to gain personal power. >> there are people in this country, you watch certain media outlets, who say we've been funding this war for eight months, howl will we continue to

do that. you sit on armed services, you served in the united states navy. from your point of view, was is the case to continue supporting ukraine? >> the united states is the preeminent democracy in the world. we're the standard bearer. if you missed your civics class in elementary school, i can tell you why those things are so powerful, so many things people here take for granted because they're protected. that's what we promote across the world. if you don't think that's important, if that's not is driving you as an american citizen, what about the fact that we do quite well economically with our friends and allies across the world and that's who we're gathering here to promote democratic values and a world where we have influence over the economy. when we're talking about the rules of the road for 5g, it's not china setting the rules for the road, it's the united states and our allies setting the rules

for the road. >> as we speak this morning, in kherson and in the area, there's an abduction going on. the russians are kidnapping citizens and moving them into various other parts of ukraine. you mentioned our allies. it's going to be a cold winter in europe, gripped by a lack of fuel for the winter. do you worry at all about the allies, nato's continued commitment given the struggles they'll have this winter in the fight against communism? >> you know, what was so interesting to me, and why i deeply felt and continue to feel that putin has miscalculated this war at every single step, was the fact that before i went to ukraine before the war, i went to brussels. we met with our nato allies. we saw the cohesion and how much they wanted to make sure that russia was not free to simply

invade sovereign territory across europe, take over areas, and make sure that they were promoting freedom and democracy, together with the united states. they have not wavered. they have continued their support against russia at a great deal of harm to themselves. i think because they're so close, they're so close to what's going on, they see so clearly what could happen if putin is allowed to go unchecked. and they lived through it. they're there for the fight. >> we try to have and aspire to have a foreign policy where the decisions we make are reflective of our national interests and separated from american politics, but kevin mccarthy's comments illustrate what a hot political issue this is with republican voters who are pretty divided on the one hand who say,

hey, we've done 18 billion, let's stop. why is this important? then you have the more national security-minded republican voters. what are you hearing from behind closed doors from your republican colleagues about how they see what's happening in ukraine and countering russia's aggression as in the national interest? >> well, that's a really interesting question. you see the same kind of divides behind closed doors that you see kind of out in front between, say, pence and mccarthy. you hear republicans -- and i sit on a bipartisan group of veterans, there's a lot of people who served, who believe deeply in our national security priorities, who believe deeply in protecting democracy around the world. then you see others who sort of have this idea of insular america, not connected to the world, which, you know, i think we've seen can be very, very bad for our economy and our values. so you see those same kinds of

fights. i was behind closed doors, we were talking about protecting our election system against foreign influence, generally russia, iran, china. and protecting our elections and one of my republican colleagues said why is this such a priority? to which several of us were just sort of, like, gosh, it's sort of like asking why is the sky blue. explain that to me. why is it a priority to protect our democratic elections against foreign influence? it's jaw dropping. you know, there's almost no answer. i think everyone paused, looked at him and said that's our priority. >> it's a challenge certainly. at home, we know russia is campaigning right now -- it's a campaign of terror against ukrainian citizens, trying to target civilian infrastructure, power grids and so on, using drones supplied by iran. so, what does that tell you about putin's arsenal? "b," what can be done about tehran funneling these weapons

that are allowing them to prolong this campaign of terror? >> it's really been a very interesting shifting of alliances throughout the region. so, certainly the iranian drones, i think, really brought israel more into alignment with the united states in this fight. they've been talking about how they'll support the ukrainians on the air defense systems and early warning systems. it also -- i think you're seeing the russian arsenal greatly depleted. now as you're seeing those conscripts getting to the front, they're arriving in old helmets, old gear, old tanks. things that were used in the russia -- the soviet/afghanistan war. decrepit pieces of equipment. then you see this realignment, despite iran's work there -- we have reports that the national

guard -- the iranian national guard is in crimea. you see these reports now, and yet saudi aligned itself with russia through opec in cutting off some of the oil production. it's really interesting. i think, again, so much of this, to me, feels like we're operating in this very short-term world. you know, many people have called russia, for example, a gas station with nuclear weapons. and yet they have engaged in this war, which i think will do real and long-term harm for their economy. i just worked on the national defense authorization act where we're talking about creating energy independence from places like russia. you're seeing saudi arabia, another economy highly dependent on gas and oil, yet kind of messing around with the global oil supply in a way that will, i think, speed up nations into moving away from reliance on these sources of energy. >> closer to home. talk about your race for re-election.

we've been talking broadly about some of the issues nationally that are on the minds of voters. abortion is one, crime is another one, inflation, the economy. what do you hear in your district? what are your constituents most worried about now? >> i think you were saying earlier it's a time of anxiety on so many fronts. so we're talking about issues related to what are my gas prices going to be? what are my grocery prices going to be? can i send my daughter to a state that doesn't promote reproductive rights, if i'm a pregnant woman, can i venture out of my state if you're in new jersey to a place like texas where women -- a woman almost died because of a staph infection because she was having an untreated miscarriage. you're looking at people balancing all of these things. i just -- i keep looking to the republican party and seeing this -- i can only describe it

as a deep cynicism. when you have someone like herschel walker, who shares none of the values that republicans purport to have, and yet simply will evidently, they think, be just a blind vote in favor of whatever priority they put in front of him. this isn't how a democracy works, where you have an elected official you rely on to share your values and priorities and fight for you in washington. i do think voters are aware of that. my own opponent said he's in favor of roe being overturned. he's in favor of states being able to ban abortions, no exceptions. and then he says with no support that he's pro-choice. there's just a deep, deep cynicism. >> yeah. some of those candidates, herschel walker running neck and neck and may be in positions of power very soon. mikie sherrill of new jersey.

congratulations. >> thank you. joe? >> let's bring in right now former msnbc host chris matthews. chris, the president is going to pennsylvania today, obviously the senate race there is critical. what is the issue that is going to make the biggest difference in your mind? >> i was watching the phillies/padres game last night, they lost. they will play on friday in philadelphia. i noticed for the last two games -- have you noticed the ads running on the republican side have been about treatment of criminals who come into the country illegally and how democrats won't vote to deport them? this is a really strong ad. over and of again. i think they're trying to focus on the issue of crime and bringing it together with the border and make that the issue that will decide the questions about the health of fetterman. they seem to want to push the crime issue, like you guys have

been doing this morning talking about it. >> you know, there's a huge debate, and i'm just curious what your thought is. every time you talk about crime -- voters are talking about crime. every time you talk about crime, progressives will say don't talk about crime. it's worse in red state america than blue state america. that's fine. i'm talking to democrats in blue state america who are telling me they're concerned about crime. i'm talking to democrats in philadelphia who are concerned about all the shootings. do you remember when marion barry was mayor of washington. at one time he said, you know what, other than murder, the crime rate is going down. everybody made fun of marion barry for saying that. that's the democratic argument right now. really, if you take violent crime out of it, well, the crime rates are going down. i just don't know how to convey to progressives that it doesn't

matter what they think. for some reason voters are talking about crime including democrats, even disconnected from political races. i don't -- i'll be honest with you, i don't get it. i don't know why they don't want to face it down. >> the thing about living in the suburbs, the people root for their team, whether you're from delaware county or from anywhere in bucks county, talking about it this morning, they are phillies fans. they root for that city. they do root for the team. the sixers and the eagles. but they don't go downtown anymore. this is an issue. and the republicans are exploiting it. this goes back to 1946. i've been reading about this. richard nixon's first campaign manager said the voter can only think of three things in the voting booth. make sure all three are about your opponent and all three are negative. now they've got inflation, crime, and the border. and they keep pounding and

pounding those three issues over and over again. and this ad, as i said on the phillies game the other night, two nights in a row, they talked about how people who come into the country illegally are murders. of course that's a ridiculous statement, but they do it. that covers the ethnic prejudice people may have for people coming across the border. you're not against these people because they're latino or whatever. no, you're against them because they're criminals. this is the way they build that case. it's building and building. as you talked about this morning, it clearly is becoming almost the number one issue in states like pennsylvania because they know they have to push it. they can't just let it happen. >> and again, never mind the fact when it comes to immigrants, the number of crimes in study after study after study, what does it show? that actually crime -- the crime rate for immigrants in america far below the crime rate for

people who are native-born in america. but please, let's not be distracted by details. let's not be distracted by the fact, again, let me say it again, the year donald trump first ran, when he was talking about building the wall, oh, my god, they're coming and invading our country, under barack obama, illegal border crossings were at a 50-year low. so, when you're talking about immigration and politics, especially with these republicans, there's just a disconnect from reality. and it's crazy. republicans actually used to support immigration to america. ronald reagan used his final speech to americans saying that we are vital, we are a great nation, because we are a nation of immigrants. we stopped welcoming immigrants to our shores, and at that point

we become an older, more tired, less vital nation. not saying we should allow illegal immigrants to flood across the border. but let's get the story straight. we can do two things at once. we can be humane and we can force our immigration laws. let's bring in right now the chair of the dnc, sean patrick maloney. i want to go to reverend al real quickly. it's not just suburban voters that are talking about crime in their neighborhoods, the people that you are talking to, you said last hour, black voters that you were talking to, who were predominantly victims of violent crime, you say that's all they're talking to you about right now. >> absolutely.

i think if you look at the data, there's more of a concern in those communities about crime. the issue is how we deal with crime. yes, we want police reform. i've been on the forefront of that for decades. yes, we want the right training. but we don't want to pass in terms of how we deal with the fact that there is rising fear, legitimate fear, not only fabricated numbers, about what's going on with crime. we have -- you take new york, you take chicago, many of the big cities where in covid, there was a problem of homelessness and people with mental health issues forced into the streets that have not been dealt with. this has increased crime. do you realize people standing on subway platforms in chicago and new york right now and they're afraid of being pushed in front of a train? we're talking about these ivory tower issues like these people don't matter. they matter to me just as much as police brutality victims matter. if they don't matter to

progressives, then you're not that progressive. >> yeah. sean, let me bring you in this happy morning. this happy topic. there are more issues than crime. crime is an issue that republicans want everybody talking about. i certainly understand that. the reason i'm bringing it up because i'm hearing it from a lot of democrats in their personal lives. and for some weird reason over the past two weeks especially. san greenberg a couple days ago, he told democrats, don't even think about talking about crime because whether you're good on crime or not, if you bring it up, that brings the voters attention to crime. the question is, a lot of tough races out there. a lot of tight races. republicans are targeting you. how do you handle the issue of crime when somebody says, oh, the woke d.a. does this or that. what's your response? >> we have a plan to increase public safety. we'll fund good policing.

we passed legislation to do that. we did it in the rescue plan. we're also going to do something about gun violence. the maga crowd won't do anything while our kids are getting gunned down in the classroom. because so much of the problem with rising crime is gun violence, it's important voters know we have a plan to reduce gun violence. my opponent thinks teenagers should buy assault weapons. i don't. that's a big difference. we can address issues of concern to people. we understand kitchen table issues and the economy are always front and center for working class families, middle class families. we're also going to defend reproductive freedom and talk about issues that we know voters are really facing a choice on. while we agree on bringing down costs and bringing down crime, we very much disagree with the maga republicans on who should have the decision over reproductive freedom. we think it should be you. they think it should be

politicians. >> i was watching the val demings/marco rubio debate the other night. they were talking about crime and guns. marco seemed so shrill, sophomoric. it was almost like he was a bot on twitter. he did everything but say if guns yes outlawed -- there were so many pat answers in the era of uvalde. i'm just wondering about a disconnect. why when we talk about crime is there so much of a disconnect for voters when -- when the violent crime that's being committed, so much of it has to do with guns. yet you had marco the other night, his answer was oh, nothing will help. we can't do anything. whatever laws we pass won't be able to stop this. forget the fact that, like, he's against stopping 18-year-old crack pots from going in on their birthday, getting guns and

then having more fire power than an entire police force. forget that fact. why is there this disconnect between voters when there's a real connection between guns on the street and most republicans absolute refusal to do anything that would keep guns out of the hands of bad guys? >> that's exactly right. i think we have to put gun violence at the center of this debate. we have a plan to reduce the gun violence that the other side is in the pocket of the nra. that's right. if we're going to talk about crime, maybe we ought to talk about the crimes committed by their former president down at mar-a-lago and else where. when they use crime, they use it as a pretext to talk about race. in my own district, the naacp and community leaders are up in arms this morning because the big outside dark money groups are sending around flyers that

are only african americans pictured committing crimes. so we know what they're doing. this isn't just a debate about crime. this is an avenue into an ugly conversation where they're trying to use race to divide americans. so, it's about public safety, of course, but let's also call it what it is. >> we've talked about it. i think it's very important and you understand, we need to find a middle ground here. it's very important to support cops. we have got to support cops. and we have to support reforms. >> for the republican party to claim they're champions of police officers when they really do nothing while capitol hill cops get the hell beaten out of them, when lindsey graham tells a cop who died after january 6th that he would kick -- kick the cop's mom out of his office if she said anything bad about trump, when you had cops being lied to by kevin mccarthy, when

you have republicans that are going to be running the house talking about defunding the fbi. they slandered the fbi repeatedly, america's top law enforcement agency, trump even put poor durham in there. he's like the 1962 mets. can anybody here play this game? no. because they have all these conspiracy theories tries to trash the fbi. how in the world do they become the champions of law enforcement when they're anti-law enforcement any time law enforcement does not allow them to commit crimes? >> when you look at the fact that some of us are left of center and genuinely progressive say we're not defunding the police, let's put the resources in the right place, now you have

those that criticized us saying defund the fbi, when you have people that are making blacks the personification of crime, when that is not even statistically true, but why don't you use a picture of the black security guard, the capitol policeman that saved the vice president from going down the wrong corridor when they were rioting in the capitol? let me ask you this, congressman. i get tweets of some people from my organization even living in your district. your opponent was given opportunity in a debate last night to denounce this racist literature that's being sent where all the criminals are black. he went denounce it. is that true? >> he wouldn't denounce it. he said it is a legal issue. we said it's a moral issue. you can say what's right and wrong, whether you benefit from it or not. we know the game we're playing

here. joe's right. we'll fund good policing. we'll resist defunding the fbi. we have a plan to give you safer streets. the other side has a ploy to use crime and race to win an election. that's what's at stake, that's the difference between mainstream democrats and maga republicans. this is a choice between whether we go down these dark roads where we are dividing people one against another. that's an old playbook. it's a dark one. it's won some political races through history, but that's what's at stake. >> this latest poll from the "new york times" asking voters, most important problem in america. combination of economy and inflation, 44%. 8% say the state of democracy. 5% say abortion. that's a very important issue, abortion to a lot of people. it was perhaps decisive in that special election up in new york 19 over the summer.

how salient an issue do you think it is, not just in your district but for democrats voting wright now? does 5% sound right to you? >> i don't think it makes any sense to think human beings vote in terms of one issue. >> but is it a decisive issue as a lot of people thought it might be? >> let's see what voters have done when they have a chance to vote. as you point out, the polls were wrong in that special election. pat ryan was behind 3 to 7 points, something is going on. when voters get a chance to speak, we saw women show up, we saw young people show up. i have every confidence that's not changed. in families like mine, if gas prices went up, the food budget went down, we would be eating ravioli on fridays.

we have a plan to give you a tax cut for working families. that was the child tax cut. took half the kids in poverty out of poverty when we did it. that's a real plan. of course we brought gas prices down $1.30 a gallon because we released the strategic petroleum reserve. republicans are complaining about that. we have a plan, they have a ploy to win power. it's more than one issue. >> chris matthews, yesterday we had stacey abrams on. we asked about inflation. even though i ran 25, 30 years ago, it was a long time ago, nobody my age or younger has ever had to tackle inflation. i warned about deficits and debt and saying, hey, this is going to lead ultimately to inflation. i never had to tackle it. you were in the carter white house when president carter was absolutely hammered with

inflation. here's my question. when inflation is driven by covid, by supply chain problems because of china's no covid, zero covid policy, by an invasion of ukraine and with russia and oil shortages, when it's driven by all of these outside factors, how does a candidate defend themselves on the issue of inflation? what do they say that will resonate with the voter. >> it depends on who is in charge. jimmy carter was blamed for inflation. he brought volcker in to deal with it. you couldn't be tougher than that. he was not going to win that battle. you cannot deny your accountability. i know the republicans want to focus the election on inflation, crime, the border, but there's one issue that just came through with talking to sean there.

the crime issue is not the democrats fault. if you look at the republicans and how they defended what happened on september -- on january 6th, just think about that guy crashing through the speaker's door into the speaker's lobby and all that anger and fury of people who were breaking the law. they were breaking down the capitol of the united states. the center of our democracy. and they're being rooted for it after the fact -- after the fact by republicans. kevin mccarthy. go ahead, break down the capitol, go ahead, total disorder, bring down our republic, don't let them count the electoral votes. none of that matters. dr. oz believes in that. he's supporting trump. so you have to get back to the question of our constitution and who cares about law and order and the capitol cops who were the good guys, like that guy who saved mitt romney by taking him in the wrong direction. those are the good guys. those are the ones defending our constitution. not the republicans.

they are not defending the constitution. this time they're the bad guys. when it comes to law and order and crashing into the capitol, just look at it. we have the pictures. >> and, of course, defunding the fbi, constantly saying there's nothing you can do. >> yes. >> about criminals and guns. this -- it's just -- you have got, chris, republicans that are just talking about surrendering. we can't do anything about guns. marco rubio, he said it repeatedly. there's no gun legislation -- he had no answers. yet, gun crimes continue to skyrocket across america. we can do nothing about that. kevin mccarthy talking about surrendering to vladimir putin yesterday saying we won't give ukraine a blank check. listening to the

american-firsters in his own party. chris, it's almost like we have three parties now. the democratic party, you have senate republicans who people can like or not like. you have senate republicans, and then you have these house republicans who really are in a far more radical world than the rest of washington. but they're the ones most likely to be put in charge. what does that look like over the next two years. >> they're in pennsylvania, too. go through the list of election deniers. it's the northeast where these people exist and they say that to their constituents. what happened in january of '21, didn't happen. cover your eyes, it didn't happen. those were the good guys. the president was right to tell them the election was stolen. he was right to turn the

steering wheel so he could get in the car. he personally is responsible. they may not be able to make the case, but we know where he was for two hours, cheering on that crowd, hoping for the worst. hoping that somehow they would get to the leadership, somehow stop the vice president of the united states from doing his job and do worse to him, perhaps, that's the one they're cheering for still. there are republicans out there -- you didn't mention them who voted for mccormick in pennsylvania who didn't vote for dr. oz, trump's favorite, and they'll probably vote for oz. that's probably the unfairness of the election. they'll join in the republican habits and vote for the republican candidate and not give the other candidate, fetterman a shot. that's the sad news about things break on election day. >> negative partisanship. how will things break in the national league final?

do you think padres will pull it out? are your phillies going to win it? >> i've been watching the phillies since the day of robin roberts and richie ashburn. i have to tell you, the phillies are a streaking team. they'll lose four, win five. that's how they got there. they're a streaking team. i'm hoping that last night is not the beginning of a streak. on friday night, they'll win back like they've done in all these clutch games thanks to harper and the players they've got there. the guy that hit the 488-foot incredible bomb the other night. >> we shall see. chris matthews, thank you very much. it's going to be a great nlcs series, willie. we have a great alcs series as well. the guy that hit that bomb, red sox -- kyle schwarber.

why would we want to keep him? not only was he great. not only did the fans love him, but they loved him in the clubhouse, too. we got rid of him. why? why keep a guy that grant? >> i can't even go there. i can barely watch him when he's up for bat at the phillies. i regret having the red sox not re-signing him. i can't watch it. it's like number 50 for the dodgers. >> you listened patiently, congressman. final thoughts on anything you just heard there or on the philadelphia phillies. >> listen, at the risk of focusing on my job, i hope people understand that the future is ours to shape. i know there's a bunch of people who will be writing our obituary over the next few days. get out and vote. we can still do this. where we have shown up and cared about what we're doing to our country we've won in upstate new

york, in alaska, in kansas. don't tell me this can't be done. we have 20 days. so much is at stake. it's not just baseball. it's our country. that's what i want to say to people this morning. we need you. go vote. >> chair of the dccc, sean patrick maloney of new york. thank you very much. this morning, president biden heads to pennsylvania to speak about the economy and to rally democrats in that important swing state. he'll be alongside john fetterman there. ahead of that trip, ron klain will be our guest. first, a federal judge says former president trump and his legal team signed court documents claiming voter fraud that they knew were false. those details next on "morning joe." ning joe. two new ihop lunch and dinner menu items for twice the goodness, twice the flavor, and twice the choice. sirloin salisbury steak and all-natural salmon. perfect for lunch or dinner. only at ihop. download the app and earn free food with every purchase. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog.

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and public safety is not getting better. i'm working hard to live within my budget. the city should too. join me in voting no on m and o. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. we can't wait any longer. climate change is here. already threatening san francisco's wastewater treatment plant at ocean beach. risking overflow sewage to dump right into the ocean. there's a solid climate plan in place, but changes to the great highway required by prop i would cost san francisco taxpayers $80 million to draft a new climate plan and put the entire west side and ocean beach at risk of contamination. protect our beach, ocean and essential infrastructure. reject prop i before it's too late. now to the new evidence connected to donald trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election. according to a federal judge, trump signed legal documents

claiming voter fraud in georgia knowing the information was false. the case is part of a records dispute between the house select committee and the architect of the plan to overturn the election, attorney john eastman. the judge ordered eastman to turn over 33 new documents including four emails that demonstrate an effort to press false claims in federal court. according to the ruling, one of the documents is an email exchange where eastman says the statistics they're about to cite alleging voter fraud in georgia were false. >> really? >> you know what? we'll break it right here. let's go right now to parliament in london. liz truss may be stepping down. >> so i'm resigning as leader of the conservative party. this morning, i met the chairman of the 1922 committee, sir graham brady. we agreed there will be a

leadership election to be completed within the next week. this will ensure that we remain on a path to deliver our fiscal plans and maintain our country's economic stability and national security. i will remain as prime minister until a successor has been chosen. thank you. >> so, liz truss obviously not at parliament but 10 downing street. she is announcing that she's stepping down immediately. she is talking -- she's in consultations with graham brady. graham brady is in charge of the committee that determines how the tory elections go. part of the criticism of how prime minister truss was elevated to that position came in large part on how the voting went.

they opened up elections to the members of the tory party and activists had a say on who was being elected. when rumors were swirling about liz truss would be stepping down or pressured to step down, there was much talk that the tories had botched the election last time by opening it up to activists. and a lot of the complaints yesterday had to do with the fact that members of parliament were having to deal with someone who they didn't have confidence in to run britain. what they're talking did doing now is with truss stepping down, graham brady and the committee who determines how these elections will be run and who will ultimately determine who the next prime minister of great britain will be, will most likely keep it a closed process and a process where members of

parliament are going to have a large say on who they put in charge. it will probably be much less to do about a popularity contest among actiists and who is best at horse trading, instead there may be more of a focus on competence. i'm reading breaking news from the financial times, liz truss resigns. this is by george parker and sebastian pane. liz truss on thursday was forced to quit as uk prime minister drawing a dramatic close to 44 days in office which saw her preside over an economic meltdown and catastrophic damage to the ruling conservative party. truss was told to quit by senior party figures thursday morning leaving bitterly divided tory mps facing the prospect of having to choose a third prime

minister in a matter of months. a third prime minister in a matter of months. government insiders confirm that brady -- sir graham brady, the chair of the 1922 committee and who met with truss on thursday morning, brady's going to be responsible for overseeing the leadership contests. the meeting he had with truss was unscheduled. truss' allies said she requested the meeting to take the temperature of the party after days of chaos. of course it has been days of chaos. we bumped in earlier this morning with a cold open from itv talking about -- describing one of the most chaotic days that britain has seen in quite some time politically. let's bring in katty kay, she's

with the bbc. 44 days and chaos from the beginning to the end. >> yeah, you and i spoke about this the other day, joe, how she was being compared to a leftist and whether she had the shelf life of a leftist in the british papers. there was that period after the queen died, she had become prime minister just two days before that, she got through a massive energy bill to shore up the british public, then the queen died. she spent ten days dealing with the funeral and her premiership looked okay. she was doing all the things you would expect a prime minister to do around the time of the queen's funeral. the moment that the mourning period was over, her problems began when her then chancellor announced a budget of effectively trickle down economics and a tax cut for the wealthiest at the time of hardship in the uk. from there on in, it has been

one uncertainty, one period of chaos after another. led effectively by the financial markets responding with a massive no confidence in the plan and the pound sterling which fell to almost parity with the dollar, something i have not seen in my lifetime. the tory party, we've spoken about this before, the tory party can be ruthless if they do not think you cannot think you can lead them effectively or win an election, you're out. that's the decision the tory party has made with some scathing comments about liz truss in the past couple of days. her premiership would be short, sharp, chaotic and then end. >> willie, bbc breaking news just now, that the tories say

they will be selecting the next prime minister within the week. they are not -- you're not going to see them dawdling around and rubbing their hands together. they'll get this done. >> which gets to the question of who that might be. reading from the "new york times" piece a couple days ago, predicting this, saying this was an inevitable end for liz truss, she was hand-picked by boris johnson, and the times writes this. ms. truss was mr. johnson's departing gift. a human land mine to level the ground for his own possible return. is boris johnson coming back as prime minister? >> i mean, the polling within the conservative party at the moment, the conservative party membership, which is this group of about 100,000 people in the uk that chooses the prime minister, that chose liz truss, suggests that boris johnson is the most popular successor to the woman who succeeded him over

the summer. you couldn't make -- this is trumpian level of chaos in british politics. he's only recently left 10 downing street. he has been on a mission to make money. he's giving speeches around the united states for six-figure sums of money. apparently he's been wanting to do that. is it too soon i think is the question. did liz truss not last long enough? if she had lasted a year or so, could he come back? the reason they want to choose a successor quickly is because they don't want a general election. the poling at the moment puts the labour party ahead by ten points in one of the polls i've seen recently. they don't want to go to the british public to see what the british public's vote is on this. they have to come up with somebody. another speculation, if it's not boris johnson, the man who has just become chancellor, jeremy hunt, foreign foreign minister, well known around european

circles and has managed actually to stabilize sterling and to stabilize the financial markets since he came into office a couple days ago. he might be another potential successor. as you say, they want to choose somebody fast and they do not want a general election. >> so, jeremy hunt, as you just indicated, he's right there. he's basically running the economy now, having overturned liz truss' proposals for the economy. my question for you, the roots of this chaos -- in the roots of this chaos, does brexit arise again? >> i don't think brexit arises at another referendum. is it there as an issue in the british economy? it certainly is. to some extent, the impact of brexit got clouded by the covid pandemic, by the war in ukraine, which also had their impacts on the british economy and the global economies.

i don't think the british economy having seen the bitter divisions that brexit caused -- you had families not speaking to each other, friendships broken up over this. nobody -- my impression having spent months in the uk around the time of the queen's funeral, nobody wants to revisit that. there's no appetite to go back to the european union and say, you know what? let's rethink this. we'd like to come back in. of course, having left -- you know what it's like if you get divorced, if you want to get married again, it will be on slightly different terms. it would be on the terms of the european union. i'm not sure britain would be able to go back into the european union, even if the british public wanted that to be the case under the circumstances that were as favorable as they had been in the past. >> is there a unifying member of the conservative party that can step forward as a place holder, a former -- perhaps a former

conservative prime minister? >> well, who would you think of? you would think of boris johnson, who left because of his own problems, right? it would be quixotic i think for the tories to choose the person they ousted. that would be odd within such a short timeframe, even though he's still popular around the country with rank and file conservatives. there's somebody like jeremy hunt. the tory party is split between the home secretary who left yesterday, who is on the right of the conservative party on things like brexit. and i don't know that there's one particular unifying thing. you think of theresa may, who was prime minister before boris johnson, but not deemed to have been particularly successful or unifying as a prime minister.

it will be -- they couldn't find somebody -- i guess to your point, they couldn't find somebody to take over from boris johnson who had stellar quality and was obviously a unifying leader. so, i'm just wondering who that person would be now if they didn't exist last time who is acceptable to the conservative members who choose a leader and who is also acceptable to the general population of the united kingdom when the conservative party has to call a general election. >> jonathan lemire? >> this has been a, shall we say, tumultuous two months for great britain. give us a sense -- i know you were there recently -- before this resignation, the national mood. how is this country faring as it feels there's one upheaval after another.

the economy has been battered. real fears of a lot of inflation and only getting worse as the winter comes. what is the sense of people who live on that island right now? as we watch political drama play out, in a way, it's oh, my god, is this happening spectator shock sport element to this. if it looks like chaos, it feels like chaos, we should remember, as you're suggesting, that the uk and british people are going through a period of real hardship as we head into a winter in which potentially we are going to see heating cut off for certain hours during the day. we have the possibility of having blackouts again. this is horribly reminiscent of the 1970s for americans traveling to the uk right now,

it's wonderful that the pound is almost at parity with the dollar. for an importing nation, it's not wonderful. inflation is running at about 10%. they are feeling it more in the united kingdom. they are feeling those high energy prices. people know bills will cost a lot. prices will be high. energy prices will be high. we have a national health service which has been sort of the crown jewel of british politicians, including conservative politicians for a long time saying, well, we would like to make a guarantee that you can see your doctor when two weeks. it feels like the country is creaking at the seams. that's disquieting for people, and we're heading into a time when the weather is getting colder, where it won't be disquieting, it will be tough. this will be a tough winter. people are feeling it. inflation is rising and wages are not. which is why the government coming in, the liz truss

government coming in and saying in the background of that economic hardship that the majority of britons are going through, we will cut taxes for the wealthiest in the united kingdom. that is why her government could not hold. >> we want to go live to buckingham palace. that's where we find kelly. it was liz truss who met with queen elizabeth in her final days. what are you hearing this morning in reaction to this news? >> it's customary for the prime minister to government, which is what happened with liz truss when she was first elected back in early september. now we have a situation where liz truss was coming to buckingham palace to meet with the king, king charles, today, to offer her resignation.

it was only a week ago when she was here having her first briefing with king charles, and there was a viral moment caught on camera just a few seconds where she shook king charles' hand, he said, "back again?" she said, "it's a great honor, your majesty." he said, "dear, oh, dear, well, anyway," sort of almost a muttered offhanded phrase. that video really caught on, considering what was happening in this country, which catty has eloquently been talking about. it's really been a feeling of chaos at the very top levels of government and really culminating in these strange scenes last night when it seemed nobody knew what was happening during a vote at parliament. it seemed nobody in the conservative party was at the helm. today, just one week after her very first briefing with the

king, coming here again to meet with him and offer her resignation, willie. just extraordinary. >> for those of you history buffs out there, the previous record holder for shortest tenure as prime minister, george canning, 119 days from 1827. right now prime minister truss is at 44 days. kelly cobiella, we'll be back to you soon. thank you very much. we'll be right back here on "morning joe." joe." i think i waited this long to get botox® cosmetic because i take like no time for myself. my kids are sports kids. we're always running from one activity to another. i'm still tonya, and i got botox® cosmetic, and this is like the first thing i've done for me in a really, really long time. my life is still crazy, it's just as full as it was before. just with less lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing,

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breaking news out of great britain, liz truss resigning as prime minister of great britain. she has been prime minister for 44 days. willie mentioned before the break that is the shortest tenure in british history. her premiership started off on the wrong foot. that's a bit of an

understatement, when she announced a short term economic plan that would cause the british economy to go into convulsions, into turmoil, the pound cratered. she back tracked on most of it, on most of that plan, and yesterday, as she sat quietly behind her finance minister in parliament, he announced that they would be reversing the rest of her economic plan just hours after liz truss had guaranteed that she was going to stand firm. liz truss said yesterday that she was not a quitter, she was a fighter, but earlier, after speaking to sir graham brady, who's going to be determining how the next torry election is held, she was given the unmistakably clear message that she no longer had the support of

her own party and just announced her resignation a few minutes ago. let's bring in the "financial times'" ed lose. a chaotic 44 days from start to finish. give us your insights. >> she became prime minister three days before queen elizabeth died, so in a sense we swapped one elizabeth for another. definite downgrading in quality there. it's going to be a pile-on. this is the most disastrous, shortest-lived prime ministership in bringish history. it's going to be a pile-on for people to discuss her incompetence, her magical thinking, her extraordinary wooden way of making u-turns with a regularity that, you know, leaves us all feeling dizzy and disoriented. but we should remember that it's

not just about her. she was boris johnson's favorite successor because she was the ultra loyalist to boris johnson. she was not the one who stabbed him in the back. that was her rival in the leadership contest, who might well now be her successor. but we should not forget that this all quite suits boris johnson because boris johnson is now going to be back in demand again, and i think, you know, the source of the problem really in terms of conservative party shenanigans is boris johnson, so if the cure to the liz truss disease is boris johnson, it is way worse than the disease. that's a scenario that i fear. it's not just about liz truss here. we need to know why she became prime minister on such an absurd program, that she kept having to

back track from, and that ultimately -- not ultimately, with rapid world-record-breaking speed led to her undoing. >> i remember when bill clinton was putting his budget together in 1993. he was given the unmistaken news that he had to take care of the debt, he had to take care of the deaf sit or else the markets would tank, the economy would tank, and then president clinton told aides around him, angrily said to aides around him something to the effect of, are you telling me that my presidency is going to be defined by bond traders? well, liz truss found out early, ed, that, in fact, the markets did matter. her economic plan was met with a disastrous reaction from the markets. the pound tanked. all this in