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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  October 21, 2022 3:00am-6:00am PDT

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here, the great uniter, jonathan, in all of this data, there was one institution that both parties wanted, neither party excluded, and that was walmart. >> walmart. well, they are the nation's biggest retailer so i guess that makes sense. you have polling data from the edelman trust barometer. we know america's faith in institutions are down, but particularly in the midwest. give us a brief sense as to why. >> the edelman trust barometer broke down the data by region and found that mid westerners distrust everyone, government, media, business, more than others. we dug into this. edelman and harvard business tell us it's economic disappointment. the economic reality, the rust belt that was a boom area has led to distrust across the
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board. >> mike allen, thank you for that, and enjoy your weekend and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this friday morning. "morning joe" starts now. let me say that i not like one of those booster rockets that has fulfilled its function and i will now be gently reentering the atmosphere and splashing down invisibly in some remote and obscure corner of the pacific. and i am returning to my plan, and i will be offering this government nothing but the most fervent support. >> like cincinatus. >> that was boris johnson giving his farewell speech but he's now back in the fold now that liz truss has resigned. >> hardly knew ye.
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>> back in the states it's been more than a week since the january 6th decided to subpoena the former president. we're going to go through why donald trump has not been served yet. and the investigation into the capitol attack is in need of serious funding but there's not a lot of time to make that happen. we'll explain. plus president biden responds to questions about his campaign calendar with just under three weeks to go until the midterms. a lot going on on this friday, october 21st. it's good to have you all with us here on "morning joe," along with joe, willie, and me, we have former aide to the george w. bush white house and state department, elise jordan, an msnbc political analyst. >> she's got more focus groups. >> and the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire, and the president of the council
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on foreign relations, richard haass, and former chair of the republican national committee, michael steele is with us this hour. great to have you all. >> baseball is 162 games, people need to take a deep breath. i will say now, this, where we are right now with the yankee houston series, houston goes up 2-0, this is exactly why i believe we should get rid of the 87 wild card teams that we throw into the playoffs and go old school. because i think when you play 162 games, have fewer playoff match ups and play best of seven games because you look at the red sox last year, the bats were extraordinarily hot through the playoffs. looked like they were going through the world series and they went cold. the yankees haven't hit in two games. guess what, that happens. so you've got a best of seven series. anything can happen. >> yeah, the bats have gone
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cold. they have struck out 30 times in the first two games. 3-0, 30 times. it was close again last night. they lost 3-2 to the astros. severino, a three-run home run and that was all the scoring the astros needed winning 3-2. here's the good news for richard haass, and other yankees fans. we move home with the top of the rotation. we started the series because of how long the last series went without a day off with the bottom of the rotation. we get gerrit cole tomorrow, and nestor cortez. judge hit one to the wall in the 8th inning that might have given the yankees the lead. we didn't. down 2-0. still in it with our best pitchers waiting in the bronx. >> i remember growing up
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suffering with the atlanta braves and their 100 loss seasons, and i remember us winning in '95. and then in '96, going into the bronx, winning the first two games, and going up 2-0, and then i think it was ferman bishop, the legendary writer in atlanta who said forget about comparing this team to this yankees, i mean, the way these guys are playing, they should be compared to the '27 yankees. the braves then, as you know, went all braves on us and lost the next four games and didn't win a world series again for years. but again, seven-game series, just far different. >> it is far different, and this is why you earn the right to play in the seven-game series with your regular season. i remember mark wohlers, turning the hinge of history to a yankee dynasty. hope springs eternal, we remain
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hopefully we've got our best guys on the mound this weekend. we're home. yanks are going to do it. >> we're about to start the show in earnest. jonathan lemire, would you like to say anything nasty about the yankees, the positive about al qaeda, about the 2004 alcs. >> the anniversary of the alcs was yesterday. the back page daily news, too short big guy noting judge's attempts to tie the game with the home run fell just a few feet short. apparently the statisticals showed it would have been a home run in exactly one park across baseball, that park of course being yankee stadium. to be clear, this is a series far from over. the astros held surf, they had to win. the yankees have their best two pitchers on the mound but they've got to start hitting. >> it's a 162 game season, it's about to become a one or two
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game season for the yankees. a lot of pressure. this is why mr. cole is where he is. he's done it twice. he has to do it a third time, and then maybe a fourth time. >> i think there's another game too. i think phillies and the padres are playing in the national league. >> okay. all right. all right. >> i'm not sure where they are in this. but anyway. >> here we go. we're following a number of legal developments surrounding the investigations into the january 6th attack on the capitol as well as donald trump's effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election. the january 6th select committee last week voted to unanimously subpoena trump for documents and testimony related to the insurrection. and we're still waiting for that subpoena to be formally delivered. it was initially expected earlier this week. and while the exact timing of the subpoena is still unclear, "the washington post" reported yesterday that it will come by the end of the week, so that
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could be sometime today. in fulton county, georgia, the investigation of potential 2020 election interference, a federal appeals court has ruled against republican senator lindsey graham saying he must testify before the grand jury about phone calls he made to top election officials in georgia amid complaints from then president donald trump that there had been widespread voter fraud. graham contended, he shouldn't have to answer questions about the calls, which are now part of fulton county district attorney fani willis's criminal investigation into possible election interference in the state because he made them in his capacity as chair of the senate judiciary committee at the time. in a unanimous ruling thursday, a three-judge panel of the 11th circuit u.s. court of appeals disagreed with graham's argument. >> and i will say, mika, the 11th circuit as we were
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explaining a few weeks ago when we were talking about the special master appeal, very conservative. it's a very conservative circuit. it's also a no nonsense circuit, and on issues like this, they're going to rule this way most of the time. if the 11th circuit is there, they're going to do what the supreme court has done time and again, on a lot of these issues and swatted them away. they are not, you know, donald trump may think it's his 11th circuit, and it's his supreme court. willie, time and time again federal judges disabuse him of that notion. they're ideological on abortion. they have had world views since the time they were in law school. it's not like they picked them up when donald trump was president. these questions about democracy. these questions about executive
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privilege. these questions about abuse by donald trump. they have been pretty unanimous, and here they're being very clear to lindsey graham in the 11th circuit. the supreme court will almost positively follow. lindsey's been trying to get out of testifying, and the 11th circuit says no go, south carolina senator. you called the georgia secretary of state. you asked him if he could throw out ballots or find other ballots. you're going to testify, and so it's one more example, and we also had that yesterday in the supreme court. >> yeah, senator graham's argument that he was just serving in his capacity as judiciary chairman. just checking in on the votes, holding up so well so far. you mentioned the supreme court yesterday. justice amy coney barrett has denied an emergency request from wisconsin taxpayers to block the
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biden administration's student loan forgiveness, after the brown county taxpayers association urged the court to rule that the president's nationwide debt cancellation bypasses the spending powers of congress. barrett acted alone in denying the request and did not address the full court. she also did not provide an explanation for rejecting that request. so joe, here you have justice barrett who has been in some ways, to progressives and democrats, someone that they have objected to, and who they didn't want to see on the court standing up and saying he can, the president of the united states can go through with this, rejecting partisanship in this case. >> in quite a few cases, again, nobody should be shocked that these federal society justices are conservative on ideological
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issues. sometimes they surprise. sometimes you have somebody like gorsuch who has i would say a wildly expansive view of the meaning of sex. when it comes to equal protection. he took that to sexual preferences and revolutionized lgbtq rights a year or two ago. but in these cases, it's kind of like cases that would flow out of the nixon tapes case, back in '74. and these cases, involving trump's bogus claims on the rigging of elections or this special masters case are trump trying to claim executive privilege, the 11th circuit, again, an extraordinarily conservative circuit, the united states supreme court. get out of here. don't even bother us with this. and yesterday that's exactly what amy coney barrett did.
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>> yeah, i think the big distinction for me is these cases revolve around process as much as they do the substance of the question of law that's coming before the court so when you're looking at the 11th circuit, when you're looking at, you know, a decision like amy coney barrett's it's one that is consistent with how they view the process. and they view it conservatively. you know, certainly if it's a political question, they're going to more or less reject it. but by and large, what you're seeing here is the 11th circuit at every turn saying, yeah, i hear what you're saying, but this process is consistent with the constitutional principle, et cetera. i think that's something particularly folks in trump world sort of discounted.
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they thought it would just be all about the red meat and that would be the thing that would get their judges to bite on these cases and give them what they wanted. and what these constitutionally consistent, constitutionally conservative judges said, yeah, i like the meat, but i'm sorry you can't serve it here. it's just not something we're going to buy because it is not consistent with the underlying constitutional requirements that are very much a part of what comes before us. i think we'll see more of this. conservatives are scratching their head going wait a minute, i thought you guys were with us. it's like, well, when you get the right case where you don't run into a constitutional law, sure, but that seems to be where the court is landing.
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>> elise, just a couple of days ago, last couple of weeks, i have noticed an up tick in conservative publications that i read from people that i've respected in the past. and i respect a lot of the other things they write about, but suddenly talking about impeach joe biden, he's a lawless president, look what he did with the student loan program. it's lawless. our constitution is at risk, and how dare he do this, and how dare people ever say that donald trump was a risk to the constitution. when he's doing this. and amy coney barrett goes, well, we're not even going to take this case. i remember saying at the time to one of them, well, why don't you go through the process and if the supreme court rules that it's unconstitutional, you don't have to impeach a president.
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just overturn the law. that's really how it works, unless you just want to blow everything up, which is of course what apparently they want to do, they want to scream and shout impeach like they're owning the libs because they somehow think that something that's now been deemed constitutional is as bad as donald trump actually being part of a conspiracy to commit sedition against the united states government. i'm afraid this may be a preview of what we see in kevin mccarthy's majority. >> it's going to depend on how big of a majority. democrats have to hope that it's going to be pretty narrow. it just makes my head hurt to think of the idea of impeaching presidents over giving away money to the american public. if that's the new standard, wow. if we give away free money all the time, the nastiness of the fight we're going to see coming up, the retribution against
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democrats for impeaching donald trump twice no matter what their grounds are, as we all know that what happened was very valid. donald trump tried to start an insurrection, and he tried to use american foreign policy dollars to benefit his own political fortunes, pretty valid. that's not going to really be that frame of logic isn't going to be what guides the next steps going forward from the republican majority that is probably going to arise after these november elections. >> so we have much more on this and also how the midterms are shaping up and elise's focus groups coming up in just a few minutes, but right now, we go to the uk. the race is on to find the next british prime minister again. >> again? they've done this how many times in the last couple of weeks. >> the ruling conservative party says by the end of next friday its members will have voted on a
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replacement for liz truss who announced her resignation yesterday after a tumultuous six weeks in office. let's bring in sky news anchor and nbc news contributor, wilfred frost with the very latest on this. >> good morning to you. thanks for having me. >> where does it go from here and why is boris johnson's name back in the mix, is that possible? >> it's definitely possible. as you were outlining, we have a more pacy leadership election than the one we had over the summer that selected liz truss. that one took about seven weeks, this one will take seven days from now. we'll know who the next prime minister is by next friday, possibly sooner than that, as soon as monday, and part of the process of speeding that up is they massively increased the bar to get on the initial short list. you now need 100 mps to put your name forward of a total of about
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360 conservative mps, and it will go to the party membership. the very fact that it is even going to party membership again over the last week or two, people were wondering if the party wanted a unity candidate, they would leave it just to the mps. the fact that it is going to party members is why boris johnson's name is suddenly back in the frame. his issue will be getting that first 100 mps to nominate him to get on the short list. if he does, he'll probably become the favorite. if he doesn't, then at the moment, the betting market suggests rishi sunak. >> richard haass, let's bring you in for the next question. first, i want to ask you a question. so well, let me just put it this way. i have spent my entire adult life telling people that everything was going to be okay.
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we're a system of checks and balances. democrats are going to counter balance republicans, who are going to counter balance democrats, and i've said the same thing about the british system. it is resilient. it's strong. it will continue. having a hard time saying that today. it's absolute chaos, and it has been -- it has been chaos. there have been a series of self-inflicted wounds over the past five, six years, what is the current state of britain political as seen from the rest of the world, and what's their balance sheet look like? >> well, if they were a share of stock, joe, called united kingdom inc., it would have suffered something adds a bear market. goes back in part to the brexit vote, which is a head shaker, i will argue, and you have had
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this fast change of prime ministers and chancellors of the year. and the whole basis for governing is increasingly not working. it's almost that simple and the policies being promoted were so questionable in every way. they just weren't serious policies. part of the problem, it's in some ways the structural weakness, joe. i don't know if you agree with me here. of parliamentary party systems. in our system, with all of its flaws, at least in principle, you have checks and balance. in a parliamentary system, you don't. the majority party has all the power. the minority party can ask questions at question time, and boo and hiss but all the power is with the majority, and that works when the majority either has checks and balances within it or has responsible leaders and followers. and what we've seen in the last few years is how the british
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system breaks down when the majority party is no longer serious or disciplined or well led, and there is no check and balance. >> you know, wilfred, during the trump era, we figured out in america, a lot of us grew concerned about the fact that we depend too much on the goodwill and the patriotism of the president so there are a lot of assumed norms that donald trump, in my opinion, not yours as a newsman, but people were talking about reforms. just from looking from the united states at a country i love and have always loved, it seems the real failing here has been that liz truss was elected by, you know, party activists. maybe 1% of britain. are the torys going to change that? are they going to at least have members of parliament make this
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decision so at least there will be some check to make sure that the person that's running the party and the government is competent? >> by the way, you're absolutely right in what happened here. essentially we have the primary after the general election, and it was the primary that decided who was the prime minister. as to whether they're going to change it to a greater focus on the mps, at the margin, they have this time around because it still ends up with the party members this time, albeit, they have upped the initial threshold. i just totally agree with richard's framing of things. there's very little we can defend of our parliamentary system. oddly, if we go back to the start of the summer, as embarrassing and drawn out as the process was to remove boris johnson from office, over the summer, i did find myself saying to my american friends, oddly, you know, the mood of the country changed and the elected
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representatives in parliament decided to reflect that, and change leaders, even though we were in the middle of the parliament that the government had a big majority. we could, in fact, make the change because broadly the mood of the country changed. clearly the fact that we're having to do that again undermines the positive spin on that aspect of our constitution. and if it leads to a return of the person removed a few months ago, it obliterates it. i think there's two sides to it. the positive spin on our constitutional system at the moment is very much de minimis compared to the negative side. there's one thing that cansoever -- can solve this. it is centered in one party, and while a general election is the one thing that's still uniting that conservative party to try and hold on for now, there will be a general election at some point at least by january 2025
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and that will give people a mandate again, whichever way that goes. until then, it's hard to see unity and stability. >> wilfred frost, thank you very much for your insight this morning. we appreciate it. and still ahead on "morning joe," the justice department says it needs more money in order to continue the investigation into the january 6th attack on the capitol. and time is running out. we'll have that new reporting. plus, a democratic candidate running for governor of oklahoma was mocked for saying the state has a higher crime rate than new york and california. >> they laughed at her. >> the thing is -- >> the moderator is like, well, we're going to have to check that. the audience left, the governor left. >> and the challenger was a bully. >> how did that turn out? >> turns out she was right. so we'll have that story for you. we'll hear also from pennsylvania voters on the issue of crime and what they have to say about the candidates for senate john fetterman and mehmet
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oz, elise jordan's focus group is ahead. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watc" we'll be right back. ♪limu emu & doug♪ it's nice to unwind after a long week of telling people how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. showtime. whoo! i'm on fire tonight. (limu squawks) yes! limu, you're a natural. we're not counting that. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ my active psoriatic arthritis can slow me down. now, skyrizi helps me get going by treating my skin and joints. along with significantly clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness,
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off day or two. he's going to be ready. so, mike -- >> every day is a good day in "axios" land. >> exactly. >> why don't you tell us one thing that you're really looking at right now, a growing concern, not just for democrats top of the ticket, but some real down ballot concerns. >> no, that's exactly right, joe, mika. we're seeing something that we haven't seen in all of my years of covering politics, way back to the richmond times dispatch, and we're seeing yard signs for secretary of state races. and it's because there's a sudden focus on all of these down ballot races, secretary of state, state legislatures, state supreme court in north carolina, and of course why this matters is future elections that after 2020, we suddenly see the power of these offices that got very little attention. and joe, mika, look at what mike
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bloomberg is doing, he's spending $60 million. his team says he'll probably be the largest democratic donor. it's getting a lot less attention this year, but here's why, it's state-based spending so he and his every town for gun safety, spending big on these races in the states, look at a legislator suddenly will be in charge of post roe legislation, and joe, the kind of issues that are getting attention this year, governors and their ability to veto post roe legislation. all of that is factors into this state-based giving by big dems, including michael bloomberg. >> good to see you, man, happy friday to you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> i really take to heart your comments because it tells me, again, how democrats are a day
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late and five terms short to the dance. the basis of the success in 2010 was not picking up 63 house seats. whafsz what i saw is a grass roots individual, the race is at the state level, state legislative races, county executive, mayors races, governors races. we picked up 800 legislative races across the country which fueled the energy to get 63 house seats, 12 governorships, et cetera, and it's amazing to me that the democrats are just now figuring out that the play is, oh, let's put some resources behind these state legislative races and offices because they're the ones who are going to set in motion the legislative agenda, not just for the state.
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>> well, they determine redistricting, and then house lines, you're right, republicans, as long as i have been covering politics, focusing on school board, smaller races, but now they're seen in a total different light. the aclu, "axios" has new reporting from alexi mchammond spending big on races. and that's a voting rights issue and a civil rights issue. >> so mike, let me follow up with you here. this is so frustrating to me. i hear democrats and i hear progressives all the time, it doesn't matter what the issue is, if it's redistricting, right. well, democrats want 60% of the
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votes in wisconsin state legislature races, and only have 40% of the seats. i'm generalizing. or wisconsin, they don't like the jury instructions that were read in kyle rittenhouse's jury. they don't like abortion laws whether it's in wisconsin or texas or florida, and they sit there, and they scream and yell about american democracy and how broken american democracy is, and it's not like jesus looking down from above saying this shall be what juries will -- i mean, this is because democrats lost a thousand state legislative seats between 2010 and 2018. they didn't pay attention. >> nope. >> they lost the races. they lost the right to redistrict. they lost the right to draft jury instructions and state legislatures. they lost the right to make abortion laws. so now, they're 10-year-old girls. i'm not blaming democrats for
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retrograde laws on abortion, if you're trying to figure out like i am how ohio forces 10-year-old rape victims to flee the state, well, it goes back to state legislators and i just am wondering when democrats are going to figure out, this isn't a flaw in american democracy, this is a flaw in their strategy. they need to start actually paying attention to state legislative races. >> that's fundamentally true. just real quick, and then mike, i'll throw it back to you. you're absolutely right about it. i figured it out as national chairman, the strength and growth was where the grass roots were growing. right? and those races would have an upward push on the political process. so if you want to be able to
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look at the -- you know, people complain about redistricting, they're drawing the lines, who's drawing the lines. the state legislature is drawing the lines. >> right. >> so if i'm targeting state legislatures, guess what i'm also targeting the ability to draw the lines, and so, you know, you're complaining about -- if you're complaining about, well, you know, the kinds of judges, well, who gets to decide who those judges are going to be, well, state legislatures contribute to that by drawing the lines for congressional races and getting senators elected statewide that will have a say in that, so you have to look at it holistically, don't you think, mike, when you're trying to calculate your future prospects, you have to look at where your strength is, and for a long time, republicans, we have always said our strength lies with our grass roots. we grow from the bottom up, it will push upward the power that we want, not the sort of downward approach that we have seen traditionally in politics.
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>> that's a great point, and what i realized from joe's comments were that the state legislatures, like the supreme court, now a generational deficit. we're saying these down ballot offices matter for future elections and who's set up for 2024, but joe's point about the long tail of state legislatures and we see on the supreme court majority, that's not a couple of cycles, that's generations. >> wow. "axios" cofounder, mike allen, thank you very much, he's the coauthor of the new book "smart brevity, the power of saying more with less." i love it. >> and i will say also, again, the news for mike is, we're saying democrats should wake up. the news now is that some are waking up now, and understanding you just can't focus on national races. you've got to start winning
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locally to actually start influencing what happens nationally. >> three weeks to the midterms. let's get the latest from ukraine. mass evacuations continue in the south as both sides are gearing up for a battle over a key city. plus, the efforts on capitol hill, to lock in funding for ukraine following recent comments from the top republican in the house. "morning joe" is coming right back. the house "morning joe" is coming right back my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor.
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welcome back at 43 past the hour, the united states government says it has evidence iran sent troops to russian occupied territories in ukraine to assist the russians in launching drone attacks across the country. white house national security council spokesperson john kirby told reporters thursday that iran sent those trainers to help russian forces utilize the drones with better lethality. asked specifically how many iranians are in ukraine, kirby didn't have a number but said the number is small. richard haass, can you talk about dynamic of iran helping russia and how that really
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complicates things on many levels? >> look, it shows again, how dependent russia is on help from the outside, how weak their own military is. they're working together on energy issues. look, it's -- this is a pariah international. these are countries, iran, russia, north korea, and others who simply are total pariahs. they don't want to change the world we live in. they want an alternative, and there seems to be no rules, as if one needed it. this is yet another argument why it makes no sense to resurrect the 2015 nuclear deal with iran because what it would do is remove the sanctions from iran. they could do more of this sort of thing. they could do more of this anywhere in the world. we think of iran as a regional country, and obviously it is for the most part. also, in this day and age, medium sized countries can have global reach.
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terrorism attacks in argentina, now they're doing this, helping russia. iran has become a real problem, and i would think we have to deal with the nuclear side of iran, but we also have to basically keep them under sanctions for a long, long time. because they are not accepting any limits on what they can do. >> so, richard, on ukraine, a rift in the republican party burst into view this week, when we heard from gop house leader mccarthy saying if republicans take control of the house, there won't be a blank check to ukraine. this was a pushback, including those close to senate leader mcconnell, and the white house is wary of this and suggesting they might be behind a significant lame duck package that could be cast in december to prevent this, if the gop does take control. give us your analysis of this debate, and also just how worrisome this could be. the white house doesn't think that the gop would, if they take control, completely stop funding, but the packages would be smaller and slower.
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what impact could that have? >> i think it would be disastrous. what you have are classic isolationists on the republican side, why are we spending over there, let's spend it at home, which is nonsense, can and should do both. we do it through most of our modern history, and you've got the fellow travelers with putin, and the question is whether republicans will come out. i think the idea of getting a big package through now makes sense just for that reason. but a big package will only buy you, what, six month, at that? and this would really pull the thread on the fabric of nato. if you have republicans reducing significantly packages for ukraine, does anyone think that wouldn't have ripple effects in europe? does anyone think that the italians and germans and others would notice? once this crisis has reminded us all and shown, is things happen with american leadership. without it, they simply don't
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have. none of this collective effort would have happened without us taking the lead. not something with our voices but our wallets and military equipment. if europeans see we're not going to last, this would have tremendous implications for what happened in ukraine. plus, around the world, what do we think the south koreans would think, japan, taiwan, american allies anywhere. this would be a message yet again that america cannot be counted on, it's dangerous to put your security in american hands because sooner rather than later they're going to turn on you. they're going to change their policy. what's at stake is not simply what's going on in europe, which is enormous. the security implications, pushing back against russia, the message that you can take territory by force. i actually think we are going to put a lot on the line. it's already there because of trump. people didn't know if the trump
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years were the aberration or new norm. it will send the message that the four years of trumpism, rather than being an aberration were a harbinger of what's to come, an america that's no longer consistent. i don't mean to be melo dramatic, but the stakes are enormous. >> couldn't agree more. richard haass, thank you very much. and still ahead on "morning joe," the justice department has asked a federal judge to give steve bannon six months in prison over his refusal to comply with a subpoena from the january 6th select committee. we'll have the latest ahead of today's sentencing. that's next on "morning joe." s g that's next on "morning joe.
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bill that needs to pass in december because of concerns republicans would cut off funding next year if they win back the house in the midterm elections. the justice department has called the capitol attack the most wide ranging investigation in its history. with more than 870 arrested so far. but the doj says it's work is far from over as there are hundreds of rioters who have not yet been arrested.
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joining us now, nbc news justice reporter ryan riley, and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aaronberg. >> so, ryan, let's start with your reporting here, and also starting with the fact that as you show us every day, this investigation continues to go on. they continue to find more rioters, bring them to justice, and you're talking about the possibility of this having to get shut out if they run out of money. how dire is the situation for the d.a. >> essentially right now, they have been working on borrowed time. a lot of these prosecutors who are helping this case are lent out from local u.s. attorneys offices so federal prosecutors' offices across the country have volunteered personnel to be a part of this investigation. a lot of that has been eased by some of the covid protocols we
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have seen over the past several years because a lot of these cases are working through over the phone system where prosecutors can call in. they'll have to fly in and out often for the in-person hearings when these cases come about, but basically you have a situation where the u.s. attorneys office in d.c. is being aided by federal prosecutors' offices all across the country. it's not something set up for the long-term. i think that's how you have to think of this as a long-term projects because, you know, you can basically think of this as a five-yearlong span investigation. it will run even beyond that. five years is essentially when you have to bring most of these charges by, and just based upon the numbers of how many people we know went into the u.s. capitol. how many we know attacked police on january 6th. and you look at how many cases are being brought on a weekly basis. the numbers don't really match up. you have about four arrests per week at this point. but you have a total spectrum of
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3,000 people who enter the capitol or attack officers on january 6th. and right now when we're a little over 870 and you sort of bump that out a little bit, and you're not going to get anywhere near that final number by the time sort of the statute of limitations begins approaching. there really is a little bit of a disconnect, i think, between justice department leadership and the folks who are actually working these cases day-to-day, about what is actually needed to bring this investigation home because it really is overwhelming the court system. it's overwhelming the justice department, and they really do need just pure manpower to bring the cases to fruition. >> the biggest investigation in doj history. dave aaronberg, time of the essence if republicans take the house, that money is going to vanish. we hear $34 million is what doj is saying they need, to someone who doesn't have the familiarity with the legal system that you do, that's the lot of money.
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what's going on here. explain how that money is spent and why it would be so important for an investigation like this. >> he who controls the purse controls the agenda so it is important that the doj gets this money. it's an unprecedented investigation. it's on a massive scale. they need it, yes, especially after we come out of the covid protocols, there are witnesses to fly in. this costs a lot of money. i doubt that many undecided voters are going to cast their ballots on this funding issue, and so when or if the democrats lose the house at the midterm elections, there's an urgency to get this done before congress turns into a pumpkin on january 3rd and i think speaker mccarthy is going to eliminate the january 6th committee, and is not going to be in any rush to send money the doj's way. the public mantra is the doj has become politicized. it's really important the money gets there.
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i think if the money doesn't get there, that the doj investigation here will continue, that cases will continue. it's just that other priorities, within the department of justice will have to be cut. and people around the country will feel the pinch because a lot of prosecutors are coming from the district offices, not from main justice. this needs to get done and fast! so now to this former trump adviser, steve bannon will be sentenced this morning for contempt of congress after refusing to comply with the subpoena from the house select committee. the justice department has asked the judge to sentence him to six months in prison, and fine them $200,000. bannon's lawyers argue he should only get probation. they have also asked that bannon be allowed to remain free until his lawyers are able to appeal the sentence. i guess, ryan, what can we expect at the sentencing today and how important is the doj's
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sort of advice here? >> yeah, i mean, judges definitely take the justice department's recommendations into account and essentially what doj argued here is this is a continuation of the january 6th attack and that by flouting the committee so boldly, he's undercut congress, his investigative powers, and really set back what the january 6th committee can do. he also, you know, if you recall, he tried to come in with the last minute deal, i will testify and cooperate. that was basically trying to undermine the prosecution essentially is what doj says here. i think that they're recognizing if steve bannon only ends up doing perhaps a month behind bars, he can turn that around and come out of that right side up. he can do a podcast. he can call himself a political prisoner. six months is serious time. six months behind bars is significant, that would indicate to the american public, this is
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something to be taken seriously, and you can't sort of make a joke out of congressional investigations. >> and dave aaronberg, knowing the players, is there any possibility he doesn't do any time. >> i think that's very small based on who he is, i think he's going to get closer to the six months than zero. he could get technically under the law up to two years but the sentencing guidelines say someone in his situation gets a maximum of six months and the department of justice wants the six months. he deserves it because of his behavior, lack of remorse, constant attacks on not just prosecutors, but the judge, the january 6th committee and democracy himself, he has long said he would go to jail for his believes. he has become the martyr he wants to be. six months is enough time to write the manifesto. i'm not sure how many shirts you're allowed to wear at the same time in prison.
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>> good point. >> state attorney for palm beach county, dave aaronberg, thank you, and nbc news justice reporter, ryan riley, thank you for your reporting this morning. so it's just past the top of the hour, second hour of "morning joe" on this friday. >> it is friday. >> it is friday. >> it's been a long week. >> no, it's not. every week in "morning joe" flies past. >> four times five is 20. elise jordan, jonathan lemire, michael steele, all still with us and joining us confers, pulitzer prize winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson is with us. >> before we get to politics, do you have any plans this weekend? >> he's got "sunday today." >> i know he has "sunday today." >> he can't make plans. he has to work. he's at a typewriter. >> oscar winner, eddie redmayne
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on sunday, and i have a bar mitzvah to go to on saturday, very excited for young ethan, we've got a lot going on. >> that's nice. >> it's what's called a leading question, you know, i asked if he had any plans this weekend because as you know. >> "sunday today." >> every sunday morning before jack and i go to sunday school, he comes in, he's like papa. what does uncle willie have on "sunday today", and we sit there, and we eat our porridge and watch "sunday today" and it puts us in a wonderful move to go to church. they're really great. they're fantastic. >> and again, joe, so brave of you to adopt an early 20th century italian boy as your son to hear the way he speaks, papa. >> he skips in the room in shorts and a tie. >> young 6'3", jack, exactly.
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exactly. >> are you going to go to any of the yankees games? >> i might try for sunday or monday. i can't go saturday, but it's sunday or monday. hopefully it's down to 2-1 sunday, nestor is on the mound, bronx is going to be rocking. the stadium is going to be electric. it needs to be. we have our best guys going. we hope for the best. >> what's in the news today, willie. president biden is back in washington after spending time on the campaign trail in pennsylvania yesterday with the state's democratic nominee for senate. the current lieutenant governor there, john fetterman. the president first stopped in pittsburgh at the fern hollow bridge, which you'll remember collapsed in january on the same day biden previously visited the city. the president then traveled to philadelphia where he and fetterman attended a fundraiser last night. there were no cameras allowed at that event. elise, you have been spending a lot of time in the state of
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pennsylvania. i mentioned pittsburgh and philadelphia. you went to both places talking to voters there in the focus groups yesterday. we heard some of the issues top of mind. you have more focus groups on the issue of crime. >> yes, i was taken aback by just how strongly participants felt about what they perceive as the rise in crime. and it's also not just a perception. you can look at the numbers specifically in the city of philadelphia. so right now, let's hear from some african-american democratic voters in philadelphia where at the national constitution center we heard what they thought about the upcoming election and the state of today's america. >> who thinks that crime, potentially impacting you or your family is the greatest fear you face right now? >> yes. >> absolutely. >> crime is at an all time high at this point. >> crime is crazy. >> yes, crime and --
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>> it's beyond. >> and telemarketers since the pandemic. >> have you seen a rise specifically in your neighborhoods. >> it's a rise everywhere. >> everywhere, all about the city. >> the carjacking is crazy. the robberies. it just doesn't make any sense. >> seems to be more than ever. >> and it's not just the city. it's even into the suburbs, so it's -- but it's obviously more heavily concentrated in the urban areas. but absolutely. we don't even know going home today how we're going to feel, you know, whether you're driving or on public transportation, what's going to happen. >> i feel like a lot of times i'm in a video game, get charlie home. you know what i mean? or get charlie to work. it's a sense of -- the respect is gone. i don't know where it went, but it's gone, and that's one of the main things we're dealing with out here now. it's a lack of respect for life,
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for people. never seen it before. >> to me it's outrageous, to the number of people being killed to the number of politicians who won't pass simple gun laws, it's just not -- you know why it's happening, they're being paid to look the other way when it comes to passing gun laws, but we end up and our children end up paying the price for it. >> elise, that is so jarring. >> stark. >> and we hear it everywhere. we hear it from philadelphia to new york to san francisco. in an oklahoma debate yesterday, or a couple of days ago, the democratic candidate said crime was higher per capita there than in new york, and was laughed off the stage. it ended up being the case. there's a massive crime wave. and, you know, yes it does fall
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on both parties. but when you have woke d.a.s in philadelphia basically saying they don't have a crime problem, when you have cops quilting left and right in philadelphia because they don't feel like, you know, they're not going to risk their lives so they can arrest people who are going to be out on the street the next day, and then you have progressives telling people in philadelphia, telling these people, oh, you're wrong, don't believe your lying eyes. there's something wrong with you for being afraid to go to work. there's something wrong with you for being afraid to go home as they were talking about right there. it is just really -- progressives on crime in places like philadelphia and new york are so extraordinarily clueless. it's maddening and yet, you see -- you see it in these focus groups, elise. >> it's really condescending to tell people who feel the threat and live the threat on their
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day-to-day going to work trying to just live their lives, it's condescending to tell them that what they're imagining really isn't so bad, and you know, we have yet another example of that today. you look at the cover of the "new york post," and you have erica adams saying that, oh, crime's not that bad in new york, but i don't know about you, but i know a lot of people, if they can't afford to not take the subway, they aren't taking the subway these days, and that's one small example, and it wasn't just the voters we spoke to in pennsylvania, we showed one group, the african-american democrats in philadelphia, but swing voters in bucks county are concerned about the rising crime, and in pittsburgh, we heard from female swing voters who are concerned, and then from republican voters who also feel an uptick. >> and, jonathan, i've said it on this show this week that i'm
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not talking to republicans who are talking about an uptick in crime. though they're saying it. i'm hearing it's anecdotal, yes, but from democrats about shootings everywhere. their homes being broken into. and the more stories i hear out of washington, the more stories i hear -- people in new york saying they're tired. reverend al said they're tired of reading stories about people being pushed in front of trains at subways all the time. they're afraid to go on subways. this reminds me so much of coming to new york city in 1989 during the crack epidemic. it reminds me also that crack epidemic, you know, just opened up a law office. it was broken into. and they took a couple of items, and i asked, why don't they just take those items. it's for crack.
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they just wanted to smash, grab, go, sell. but i'd always hear those stories in '89, whether it's in pensacola, florida, or manhattan. 're back there again, and for the life of me, i don't understand why progressives are pretending we aren't. >> crime is up across the country, and studies show it's up more in districts won by donald trump than joe biden. the perception is bad, particularly in cities which impacts not just the residents of the cities but also suburban identities who like to come in and out of the cities. elise's focus group has been so good on that, and as a real concern for the fetterman campaign, far more than concerns about his stroke, they feel they're handling that fine, they're worried about crime, and that's a concern. eugene robinson, we know there are very few democrats who ever said defund the police. republicans have done a good job
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making that a slogan anyway, and we know that president biden, the top democrat couldn't be more opposed to that. we hear him say all the time, i'm for funding the police. that's what he wants. the message seems to be resonating, what if anything can democrats do in these next few weeks to set the record straight, point to the crime stats, things are not nearly as bad as they were in the 1990s crime is up, though, how do they handle it? >> first of all, they have to keep saying what they have been saying all along, what the top democrats have been saying all along which is fund the police. this is what nancy pelosi has been saying, that's what joe biden has been saying, but, you know, there are one or two democrats out there who have said in these words, defund the police, and yes, that has been used to tar the entire party in a way that has been hard for democrats to shake, and they
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just need to keep saying, you know, nobody understands the need for good policing better than people who live in neighborhoods that are beset by crime. and democrats can address that and talk about that. perceptions of crime are up higher than the crime rates themselves. that is subjectively true. the crime rates are definitely up, and it is foolish of democrats and progressives or anybody not to deal with that reality because it's what's on voters' minds. you know, the other thing that's interesting, though, is that voter in elise's focus group, what he talked about is gun laws, and getting the guns off the streets. that's a way to talk about crime
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that i think democrats should avail themselves of more frequently because in the end, you know, a bad guy with a penknife is a lot less dangerous and a ot less of a threat than a bad guy with a gun. and getting the guns off the streets is a way to talk about crime, a way to talk about the issue that people want progressives to talk about. that is consistent with what democrats and progressives generally believe. >> so, elise, as you talked to pennsylvania voters, a big difference between john fetterman and dr. oz. what did you find from the voters, the people who are going to decide which of those two men are going to be senator?
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>> dr. oz has had a barrage of successful ads highlighting crime in pennsylvania over the last month or so, and when i spoke to voters, they still, though, had lingering concerns about john fetterman's health. we showed them dasha burns interview with john fetterman and got their reaction, and here's how swing voters responded. >> it's hard to watch him speak because you want the words to flow. you want him to be able to have that ease of communication. i don't have a problem with the fact that he needs closed captioning. i think that way for him and if he becomes my representative, i would want him to be clear as to what the other party was saying. so if he needs that assistance now, i think that it's a genuine
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ability to work through a disability that he's having today. will he need it next month, six months, forever, i don't know. >> the one thing that i got to say that you did say is you don't know if he's going to need that six months or the rest of his life, and neither do we or his doctors. that's the sad part, and i think somebody should have stepped in, and said, hey, this isn't the right time, john. six years from now, you know, and believe me, i'm not saying anything for them. i think them parading them out there is a sore eye for the democratic party. >> sometimes you're not choosing between your favorite thing ever and something else, is that a concern, absolutely. i hope that that's the only thing affected by his brain, and i think it would be comforting to have a doctor say we have tested him, if there was a way to measure that. this is where his brain was affected and it's not going to affect his ability to, you know, participate. but even then, like, it's so late in the process that like
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who else -- one time i did vote third party but then i didn't even show up on the pennsylvania numbers. and i have like dang it, i wanted to show i was voting for the other guy. in my dream world, everybody would have a chance, but since i feel like we don't, and i'm not a one -- i don't remember what you called it, but i'm only caring about abortion. i definitely have lots of issues. but i think that because of how the political climate is roigt now, and with the, you know, people overrunning the capitol, i'm leaning more towards wanting to find balance or people that are not pro trump. for me that's kind of the way i go. i'd probably still vote for him, but am i feeling great about it. do i have concerns, absolutely. >> that was my thing too. i definitely am born and raised, you know, pennsylvania, pittsburgh, but the state of a
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whole, and i think it's important to know your constituents and know your state and know everything about it. but senators are for six years, you know, where as representatives are there for two years, and that's a terrible thing that they have to run every two years. they haven't even learned anything yet, and they're running again. and i think that's crazy. >> so what about the scenario that his health does get worse, and -- >> that's the finger -- >> that's my concern. and i having had my own paralysis and, like, this thought of he can get better, that's what i don't know. because strokes are not like a cold. they affect your brain, and so that is where, like, that is my opinion just to say, i'm not aligning with everything that's being said. >> so, elise, i noticed that some of the people that were
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expressing concerns about fetterman were also voters yesterday we heard from who talked about how abortion was a single issue vote for them. so, again, these aren't republicans. these are swing voters. and democrats also that are saying they have real concerns about john fetterman's health. >> it's a tricky race, joe, because while these swing voters we spoke to, they may not be that enthusiastic about dr. oz and they call him a carpet bagger, they still are not completely settled with the question of john fetterman's health and sending him off for a six-year term in the senate. and you -- they have empathy, it's not that they don't want to give him a chance, but at the same time, this is their moment to question credentials for a really important office. and they're doing that. just like they should. >> yeah, as they brought up, a six-year term. here's what these voters said
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about dr. mehmet oz, take a look. >> let's talk about dr. oz. what do you think of his candidacy, and do you support him? >> i don't think he's a pennsylvanian. he doesn't live here. >> and it's, you know, to me, he's a carpet bagger. >> i saw a lot of people nodding about the he's not a pennsylvanian comment. who agrees with that. let's do a show of hands. so about half. so who is still undecided about how they're going to vote in the senate race between dr. oz and john fetterman? so who has decided they're going to vote for john fetterman for sure? >> who has decided they're going to vote for dr. oz for sure, and what's it going to take, our four undecided voters, what's
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keeping you on the edge here? go, frank. >> he's a big guy. he just had a stroke. i'm not sure how that's going to -- if it's going to impair his ability to perform. >> i haven't done the research yet on my own to figure out who i like better. >> what about you? >> i just -- i personally don't like either one of them, that's why. and i feel like dr. oz is some kind of nefarious reason for doing it. i'm not sure what it is. i don't know if it's a personal gain, i don't know, you know, why he decided all of a sudden he wants to be a politician. that kind of perks your ears up a little bit, what's in it for him, what's he got to gain from it. i didn't like fetterman as lieutenant governor. mainly his attitude. i don't like people who say it's my way or the highway kind of deal. we should sit down at the table and hash it out, and figure it out, and get us all moving in the same direction. right now, like everybody said
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when we got here, everybody is pointing the fingers, and he's one of them finger pointers, and that's what i really don't like about him. >> you hear so many negative things about him, about turkey, about him not really having a home here. well, if you don't live here, how can you represent the people that are from here. and me and my husband have had this conversation, and i think i'm picking the worst of two evils. >> what else is new, we have done that forever. >> did anyone vote for dr. oz in the republican primary. >> no. >> but now, who has decided they're going to vote for dr. oz for sure on election day? >> lesser of two evils, it really is. >> yes. >> i was contemplating just abstaining on that one. i really feel that the establishment did barnett pretty dirty. >> wasn't it donald trump, though, that took dr. oz over the edge with his endorsement?
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>> i don't give him that much power, personally. i mean, if he wants to endorse -- if it doesn't align with what i believe, it doesn't matter who he endorses. >> i think a lot of -- >> he's good at being in front of a camera. >> he sounds good and if he sticks with what he says. >> that's all we can ask for. >> you don't feel he's from pennsylvania, is that the hesitation. >> i don't feel like philadelphia is from pennsylvania either, so. it's that same feeling. >> i see a lot of traits from dr. oz that i see in donald trump. >> yes. >> donald trump claims he's a politician. he was all over the place with every body. you see dr. oz with tyler perry, you see dr. oz with oprah winfrey. you see dr. oz with everybody. >> michelle obama. >> and now it's time to pick
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sides. where do you belong. >> i don't really know how long ever dr. oz has been a true republican, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had more democratic values at one point. just like trump did. and he switched. so he's kind of following in the same path. be true to who you are. but he had to run a republican race because that was -- that was the perfect slot for him. so -- but he's not a true pennsylvanian, by no means. >> wow. >> such a good job. these are so good. >> so much to unpack there. first of all, perhaps the best line, well, i don't consider philadelphia to be part of pennsylvania either. spoken like a true western pennsylvanian. and i think an underlying current through all of these focus groups, the worst of two evils, trying to select between
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two political evils. >> joe, and that's a construct that was so constant during 2016, invoked hillary clinton versus donald trump, and now it's the frame that voters on both sides see as the inevitable choices. and i guess, you know, it's always been like that to some extent, but the lack of voter enthusiasm is not exactly inspiring when it comes to these two candidates in pennsylvania. >> michael steele, what's your take away from what you have seen? >> i just applaud elise, and some incredible incisive work there to get the voters to really get comfortable enough to begin to express how they look at these individuals. i think the health question for me was very interesting and very telling in respects. it's the tale of two states. i listened to the concerns of
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voters who were worried -- are worried about where the lieutenant governor, fetterman is on his health, and i look at the voters in georgia who seemingly don't seem to be concerned about the intellectual capacity of herschel walker to put together a sentence without a prompter. it's a very interesting dynamic politically, what vote mates -- motivates people to stand firm in that corner with these particular voters, despite the health concerns, you got a guy who's not a pennsylvanian, and yet, that's not enough to pull you away from him, you're more concerned about, you know, the possibility two years from now that fetterman may have a health episode as opposed to the fact that you've got someone you called a carpet bagger, who does
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not know you, has no clue how to represent the interests of pennsylvania, yet you're prepared to make him your u.s. senator. there are a lot of other elements, i think, beneath the surface here that are going to really define this upcoming election, joe and mika. and i think elise began to scratch at that, and you'll see it materialize itself in force on november 8th when voters finally make that decision. i was in pennsylvania a few weeks ago. and right now, from my perspective, fetterman has a problem, not because of health, but because of the crime issue. the oz campaign has been very effective at tagging him as uninterested or incapable or unresponsive. you know, my way or the highway is that one voter said attitude when it comes to an issue like crime, and it stuck, and that more than the health thing, at least from my talking to pennsylvanians a few weeks ago
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is a big driver in the back end of this campaign, and elise's focus group put her finger on that. >> yeah, i was going to say, gene, these focus groups are important to cut through noise, cut through when you hear partisans talking through on it have or activists pushing messages. these are the people that decide the election. i'm curious what your take aways were, hearing voters say, yeah, look, maybe it's taboo. you're not supposed to talk about it. i have concerns about fetterman's health. his wife stepped in and said he's not doing interviews, and he didn't answer the questions. that is out there, uncomfortable as it may be to talk about, that is out there if you listen to the voters. >> i thought it was fascinating that elise got voters to talk about that issue, to talk about, you know, the things they're concerned about about dr. oz. what i found fascinating is that it sounded to me as if in the end, the voters who are really
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concerned about issues like abortion rights, who are really concerned about the democracy issue, that those voters in the end are probably going to vote for fetterman, and that the voters who really don't like democrats and don't like philadelphia and even though fetterman's not from there, but they don't like the left, are probably in the end going to vote for dr. oz, despite their reservations. and i wonder, was that where you came out, elise? i mean, even the voters who said they were swing voters and said they were still undecided. in the end, it sounded to me that they were leaning and those leanings depend kind of on their world view, what they thought, you know, the senate needed and
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the issues they really cared about. >> there were a few voters who seemingly came around to the idea of just going ahead and voting for john fetterman after listening to some of their fellow participants rail against dr. oz, but i just had this lingering sense i can't shake 2016 and the shy voters that didn't want to admit in a group that they were necessarily voting for trump, and i wonder if there's a bit of that going on with dr. oz because there is a sense of not being exactly comfortable with how he came into the state, and isn't really a pennsylvanian, but they aren't comfortable with john fetterman because they have questions about his judgment that pre-date the stroke and the stroke is only compounded this image of him as somewhat of a loose cannon. >> and it's fascinating what you're saying about 2016 and you take a candidate like dr. oz
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who's seen as a joke by many late night comics, and mainstream articles written about him. i always told the story, i would be talking to groups in 2016, and would talk about both sides that were running. and the talk in the room was all negative about donald trump, and as i walked out the door, people would say, i'm voting for him, i think i'm going to vote for trump. i know he's crazy but i'm going to vote for him. i know he's a joke, but i'm going to vote for him. dr. oz would seem to fit that category. one more thing, too, you can't help but hear the story of fetterman being with biden yesterday, people asking him questions, his wife saying he's not answering questions, and also look west to arizona where katie hobbs is afraid to answer questions. katie hobbs is afraid to debate, and it just circles back to,
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again, we always talk about ideology, we talk about the issues that we think are so important to us, so often in these races, just candidate quality matters. and if you can't answer questions or if people think that you are going into hiding, you usually don't win races, do you. >> absolutely, and it's such a reminder that candidates have to be out there, and accessible, and day can't be hiding while they're on the campaign trail, auditioning for the job. >> candidate quality, candidate ability. still ahead on "morning joe," quote, weapons of mass delusion, when the republican party lost its mind, author robert draper is back with more on his new book. we'll be right back. more on hiw book we'll be right back.
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36 past the hour, a beautiful shot of the white house on this friday morning. joining us now, contributing writer at "new york times" magazine, robert draper. he is back with more on his brand new book out this week entitled "weapons of mass delusion, when the republican party lost its mind." >> robert, thank you so much for being with us. dr. brzezinski was a trail blazer in the field of comparative communism. you can't look at the soviet bloc all the same, hungary is different than poland, than east germany, you need to understand the nuances. i think we should talk about comparative republicanism because my theory has been there are three parties in america. you've got the democratic party, the senate republicans, and the house republicans.
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and yes, the senate republicans are very conservative even by historical standards but the house republicans, i think it's who you're talking about more here, the house republicans are election deniers, they're conspiracy theorists. you have people that have been qanon advocates who are going to be in very powerful positions if the republicans take the house back over, which they likely are. talk about those different -- talk about comparative republicanism even on the hill . >> i like that, joe, and certainly that's the case, although it's changing. mitch mcconnell has always been of the theory that the institution of the senate manages to cool the passions of some of the people who come in, but i'm not convinced that that's going to be true with a herschel walker, with a j.d. vance or maybe even a dr. oz for that matter.
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what's indisputably the case, the republicans have this hot bed of maga thinking steeped in disinformation. this transcends capitol hill. "the new york times" did a survey and found that 370, the vast majority of major candidates in the republican party from governor and senate to congress and secretary of state believe that the election was stolen, and do they really believe it or are they just saying it. what we do know is that the maga base that is the gravitational pull of the republican party believes it very much, and i'd actually be curious since elise has been sending all of this time in pennsylvania to know whether or not she was hearing as well this kind of talk among swing voters and trump voters. my guess is that it's a real preoccupying thing for them, this so called election integrity issue? >> well, robert, i wish i had a better answer for you that was more inspiring about the state of democracy, but of our group of ten trump voters, they all
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believed that the election was stolen in 2020, and had not moved beyond it. and we'll have some of that footage next week with those voters talking about january 6th, and how they did notlieve and had really embraced the conspiracy theories after the event, even one of the participants in the group who had been at the rally and been at the capitol on january 6th, and how the actual history of what happened that day has been completely distorted. that's why your book is so important, and my question to you would be what would you do when it comes to countering disinformation when people don't care if it's disinformation and incorrect. >> i can't think of any issue more difficult, any challenge more intractable, elise, than the problem, you know, the effort to try to disentangle, my
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title is weapons of mass delusion, with emphasis on delusion en masse, we are talking about tens of millions of voters who believe the lie that the election was stolen and adjacent lies relating to covid-19 vaccines, january 6th as you alluded to, and i wish i had an answer for you for how it is people essentially become deprogrammed, i'm not a social psychologist, so i can't answer that, but i do think that what will have to happen over time is probably a success of defeats and elections by republicans, not anything i'm advocating, it's an observation that for ultimately establishment republicans to say that we've had it your way, and all its done is besmirched the party and now we've got to restore some sanity. >> so robert, we've got big candidates on the ballot this
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fall, obviously, but lots of big lie representatives already in congress, a well more than a hundred voted to decertify the election in 2020. we might cut off aid to ukraine. that's because it's in part fueled by some of these extreme maga types, isolationists, the marjorie taylor greenes of the world who appear, if republicans take the house, appear to have out sized influence in the congress. these are going to be prominent figures in this republican congress. tell us were that to happen, what would that look like? >> yeah, no, that's a really really salient question, and, i mean, mccarthy is very mindful of the fact that for him to become speaker and thus for him to wield power and to govern in the house, he's going to need the support of the trumpian base. we have seen that going back to late january of 2021 when he made his fateful trip to mar-a-lago. he's going to be doing the same
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thing by people like marjorie taylor greene, paul, giving them better assignments than they had before. ukraine is going to be an interesting issue. mccarthy has said out loud he's not sure there's going to be much support for that. it's weird. it's not like i think it would be healthy to have a fulsome discussion of america's role the in world and after the iraq debacle that discussion never took place. it pains it figure out what the ideology is of the maga republicans who are saying cut off aid and end the endless wars. what do they believe america's role should be. that's an unanswered question that looms over the ukraine debate. >> the new book is "weapons of mass delusion" when the republican party lots its mind, robert draper, thank you very much. >> it is so jarring that everybody that elise spoke to believed the election was
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responsibly. the trump crew, weren't concerned about january 6th. and we're going to be talking to frank luntz also about what he's learning talking to people. such a clear and present danger to american democracy. it's -- >> yeah. >> it's really, it's still, after all of these years, it's hard to grasp that people -- their hearts could be that hardened. they aren't interested in the truth. i can say that. i'm not being self-righteous. they're not interested in the truth. they won't even read murdoch news papers. they won't even read the very conservative op-ed pages of the "wall street journal." they'll believe freaks running web sites out of their mother's basements are coming from
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overseas and the truth just doesn't matter. and the fact that it is still so widespread and rampant really does show what jon meacham was saying, and we're going to be talking to him in a second about lincoln and the civil war, it was close. it was close. most people thought lincoln was going to lose for reelection, that there were going to be compromises that would have ended the emancipation of slaves. it was close. we're close now too. we're close now too because people that we know, and people that people that we love and people that we have respected in other areas of our lives are embracing anti-democratic conspiracy theories. >> and candidates. >> and candidates and are willing to overthrow american democracy and free and fair elections because they lost one election. it's really depressing. jon meacham is next. also ahead, we have been talking about the head-to-head
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match ups in the key midterm battlegrounds. it is not always the case. we'll talk about how libertarians and third-party candidates could play spoilers in crucial senate races. "morning joe" is back in a moment. senate races. "morning joe" is back in a moment it's nice to unwind after a long week of telling people how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! (limu squawks) he's a natural. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva.
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secretary stewart, it's not decided until i decide. >> mr. president, president, no that everything secretary steward says is true. but there are also other things that are true. one of them being that i'm not willing to go back on my word. and i'm also not ready to give
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up. the way i see it, is that surrender would be ruinous to the union. by discouraging the folks at home and encouraging our adversaries. and it may give them recognized by foreign powers. >> i have talked to a navy man who's got a plan to send supplies by sea back via warship. and i have decided to do it. >> that's a clip from the history channel's munnry series abraham lincoln. it was executive produced by presidential historian, pulitzer prize winning author and friend doris kerns goodwin. what will we say, you're here as a visiting professor on "morning joe."
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doris, i'll let you ask john the first question. it is fascinating though. we were talking about the hinges of history and we saw how history swung because of what abraham lincoln did. we showed deeply disturbing focus group footage of people who still to a person, republicans, still believe the election was stolen and january 6th was much to do about nothing. we are on the hinge of history right now, aren't we? >> without a question, joe. i'd love to have john talk about this. i'm so glad he is loving lincoln like i have. you know, when i first started studying lincoln, i met the dean of lincoln scholars and he said to me, you will feel after spending time with him that you're a better person at the end for it. so that's the first question to john. do you feel a sense that some of
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his quality has come into you as a result of spending so much time with him? the best person in the world to spend time with. >> oh, absolutely. and thank you. i'm glad to bring in the big guns finally. so thanks to doris. i'm not a better person. but i know what i should be. and i think that my sense is that the virtual experience of studying lincoln is -- it has made me want to be more broad gauged. to be more devoted to a consistent principle while still being empathetic. that is not becoming self righteous. and i think that was probably the most remarkable thing about abraham lincoln. he was principled but not self righteous. and he knew that self righteousness would be a problem. that the more he pounded on the
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table, the more he made the other side he would make them feel lesser than. however, he was absolutely devoted to the principle that slavery had to end. and the union had to be preserved. not simply because the union was an innate good. the but because it was this means to a more perfect, not just union, but a better way of living for all of us. he saw the civil war as part of a global struggle, a human struggle. because democracy makes all things possible. it's not perfect. but it's better than all the alternatives. >> john, this is from one of the little guns in this company, certainly. >> you're not a little gun. >> but let me ask first to john and then to doris, just tell me something quickly about lincoln
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that i either lincoln the man that i either don't know or don't fully appreciate. >> very gentle. one thing that i think is very important and this is critical and gene you're not wearing a tie so you'll appreciate this this morning, he wore his -- the tie -- the tie we see, the bow tie was called a stock. it was a clip on. it was tied in the back. i always wondered how he -- there it is right there. how he managed to always sort of have it the same way. the answer is it's not real. our friend at the smithsonian. they have all this which is one of marvelous things is can you see what he actually touched. that is a black brooksbrother suit. scarborough has a lot of those. so it's these tiny things.
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there is also, i think this is probably more to the point on a serious note, when he goes to ford's theater on good friday, 1865, in his pocket, in his wallet are a series of clippings. the gene robinson of the era. if he wrote a nice column about lincoln, he had clipped it -- absolutely true. he clipped it out and put it in his wallet. he had six or seven of them. and i love this idea that this man is trying to save the possibility of democracy. he's trying to liberate a people. he's trying to stand against an implkable rebellious force that was willing to atone his own power. in the middle of that, he still needed at some level to know that people approved of what he was doing. >> you know, john, when you
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think about going to ford's theater that night, one thing that i hadn't realized was that the reason he went that night was because he had to keep his word. he was having so much fun. the war had come to an end. he was finally able to relax at home. he didn't need to go to the theater as a diversion. he said to friends, i'd rather stay but i have to go and the reason he had to go is you promised the people he would be there and he couldn't go back on his word. and that goes right back to what we saw at the very beginning. he had given his word that he would protect those federal force and so as a result he had to do it. otherwise then, he says at the beginning, i love to have your thoughts on this, democracy depends upon the fact when you lose an election as the south did, that you can't just go break up the union as a result of doing that. otherwise, democracy will be subservient. does that ever sound like today? >> they vote for him in november of 1860. and immediately as your
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marvelous book and your film show, there say compromise on the table. to basically allow slavery to expand to parts of the western territories. it's one of those imminently reasonable compromises, seemingly reasonable, that america history is based on, right? his great hero, henry clay, would have been the architect of that kind of thing. and as you say, he said no. and all the respectables thought, you know, this is the thing to do. what is america if not an exercise in compromise? but he had won the election on anti-slavery principles. and as you say, he said if we win an election and then immediately surrender the central claim of why we won the election, then it does not fulfill the democratic lower case d enterprise. i think it's one of the singular
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moments in the history of the west. it's like churchill in 1940. it's this -- it's like fdr trying to get us prepared despite the isolationism. it's this moment where lincoln knew and this is resonating as well for what we're dealing with at this very hour in what joe and everybody is talking about. he knew that you could not appease the slave interests. you could not appease an interest that was not interested in the give and take of democracy. and he said, as you know, doris, that if we give them functionally arizona and new mexico, which even massachusetts republicans were kind of for, it's like okay, let him have that. he knew that was simply the beginning and not the end. we know where the border of the united states is. but they didn't. so slavery could have expanded
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to cuba, parts of mexico. remember, the south's vision, the white south's vision of what the second part of the 19th century was going to be was not this limited area of slave territory but an entire empire. it was called by some the golden circle. cuba was going to be the center of an empire with a capital enrichment, perhaps, that was going to be this place where a race would long, long endure. and lincoln understood this. he understood what they wanted and he was determined to fight it. >> so, doris and john, you know, you guys are the big guns. i'm gunless between you two. you guys have -- it's amazing the history lesson here. but doris, i want to -- because
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you have so uniquely framed lincoln. what was the influence, the impact, the role of african-americans in shaping lincoln's ultimate philosophy and drawing -- because he didn't come, you know, he was kind of like we don't want to press it too much. i get where the south is coming from. we're trying to hold the union together. but the influence of individuals like frederic douglas and other african americans of the day and the role that they played in helping him come to a principled position that we know now. you know, it framed my views as a lincoln republican as a young man. i'm curious what your thoughts are there. and, john, you as well. because you also have waxed poetically in understanding, helping us understand and appreciate various influences. doris, with you. >> i think you're absolutely
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right. there is no question that relationship with frederic douglas, i think, had a large impact on him. they had three meetings. each one of the meetings really mattered. and what it shows is that frederic douglas was the agitator coming in from the outside. the he could afford to argue. we need to move in this direction. lincoln had to worry about public sentiment. he always said public sentiment is everything, with it, nothing can be failing without it, nothing can succeed. and so he was always telling frederic douglas i'm where you r i promise you. but we have to move the country along. and after he died, frederic douglas said, if you look at him as an abolitionist he would be slow. if you look at him with a man that dealt with public sentiment, he was forward. i love their relationship. i think it's one of those times when history can look at both men and see both men were doing what they had to do and both men needed each other. that is true for us in the country. you need the people from the
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ground up who are pushing you and you need the person in the channels of power that can make something happen. they're a great combination those two. >> frederic douglas said in the great fourth of july speech at rochester, one of the great speeches in american history that i do not despair of this country. the fiat of the almighty let there be lite has not yet spent its force. as doris says -- >> let there be light. >> there we go. so thank you to frederic douglas. the key -- they needed each other. and they -- douglas was part of a world that was building sentiment that was trying to call the country to a conscienceous action. that sound grand. i understand the black and white pictures and it feels remote. but it wasn't remote to them. they were doing this in real
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time. our old friend who we just lost used to say nobody in the past walked around and said oh, what an interesting world the past is. you know? our past was their present. and lincoln was a flawed, fallible guy. he was anti-slavery but not legal takerian. he was not dr. king in a black brooks brother's suit. but he built it the best way he could. if he as a flaw people can transcend his limitations, he can to. the book is "and there was light." john meachum, congratulations on the book. and doris kerns goodwin, thank you for being on with us this morning to share it with john. new numbers from political strategists and pollster suggests americans don't think
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it's that the system is broken as much as they think it is the candidates. when asked what the greater problem is, 72% said the politicians and people running for office who are more of an issue, 28% named the current election system itself. >> frank, as always, thank you for being here. and yet the people are the ones that keep electing these politicians. >> well, the problem is that they seem to be one thing as to running for office. then they get elected and they become part of the system. that's when the frustration that's the public has. get things done. they are angry. the partisanship. they're angry at the ranker and angry at the conditions. they don't think the elected officials, israel is going through the same thing. we've seen the same thing in germany and france. frankly, it's a challenge to democracies ever where. thanks to social media, thanks
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to the pressures of day to day service. governments are not performing in the way that public wants and i'm genuinely afraid in this country that we're about 2 1/2 weeks away from a group of candidates simply not accepting the results and this is my warning to you all and to the viewers watching at home. we could have a situation of 2020 all over again and all over the country if governors, senators, secretaries of state choose not to accept their loss and continue to fight back. it's no the just republicans. we're in trouble here. the previous segment shows we've been through this before. i don't want to get to a civil war. i want a democracy that survived and thrive. and one more point. i'm teaching a group at bradley college. they're british students. they look at their government having just fallen. they look at our government and anger that they see from the elected officials. even they, the future of their country, the future of all of
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us, even the people think what has gone wrong. >> wm, frarpg, we just played a clip from one of the focus groups. every trump voter she talked to believes that biden is not the rightful president. believes the lies that they have been told repeatedly. i think january 6th is much to do about nothing. you have candidates that are running for governor. they are election deniers. they are going to be leaders in the house. they say they won't accept the results. >> i mean, yes, i understand there have been democrats here and there. a small handful that have challenged election results. the but here in 2022, this is coming from the republican party. and it seems to be a clear and present danger to american
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democracy. >> it does. i'm doing everything to keep it nonpartisan. i'm doing everything i can -- >> how can you when it's all coming from the republican side right now? because it happened in 2016. it happened in 2004 when they called it for george bush and people thought that john kerry won. we have gone back and forth. i just have to say, really, stop. because this time in 2022 having been through the -- i have to watch my language -- keep going through what happened in 2020. if we do this again one more time, we are at the brink of losing faith of the majority of american people. >> frank, i -- every day i try to find positive things to say about republicans who are being responsible. i want to encourage responsible
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republicans. bit by bit, day by day, step-by-step when the internal battle against election deniers. but i can not sit here and let viewers think that there is any moral equivalency between what happened in 2020 when donald trump undermind american democracy and repeatedly undermined confidence in the system. and what happened in 2016 when hillary clinton conceded or what happened in 2004. yeah, there were wing nuts out there saying that ohio was stolen. john kerry went out and conceded the election. i mean, there's just -- again, i don't want it to be a battle about that right now. i understand that you're trying to make this a bipartisan appeal. sadly, in 2022 and in 2020, there is no -- there is no moral equivalency between what we're going through now and what we've gone through in the past, is
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there? >> joe, those are legitimate points. i think that what the ex-president has done has been so destructive to democracy and i see what the damage is. i see it in my focus groups. we have the same thing. people can't talk to each other. they don't want to hear each other. they don't want to listen. they don't want to learn and our children are watching. we all around this table. we're adults. i'm afraid the message being sent to the next generation, the students out there watching. i'm not going to disagree with you. but what i'm going to say is if we want to repair that breach and find a better union as lincoln did and go back to that segment, he did not want to damn the south. he didn't want to punish them or reconstruction. he wanted reconciliation. i'm trying to follow lincoln's lead right now. >> michael, i always made the
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point as being more like you and me and may not seem this way to a lot of republicans, but we're trying to find a way back. like ann applebaum said, let's try to find common ground to pull some people way from trumpism. and i will say, it does make great sense. when frank is talking about following lincoln's lead and people may be mocking, i always remember when i'm ready to just lose it, i always remember what lincoln said in the second inaugural address after 700,000 americans had died because the south was willing to kill 700,000 people and sacrifice 700,000 people in the north and the south. to save slavery. i remember even after all of that, lincoln said with malice
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toward none. that's how i try to walk every day through life. even though i fail sometimes, when we talk about these issues, with malice toward none. and yet we still have to have a clear eye view of this force that threatens our great republic. that threatens the great american experiment. don't we? >> we do. and so the problem and it goes back to the focus group conversation that we had with others. it goes to the historic composition, sort of framing that we had with john and doris about how people respond to that. malice towards none. i would say those words are lost on a lot of folks today. so my question to frank who is -- has been in this space and certainly having started out in
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the grassroots of the republican party and knowing how they feel, they talk, they understand and express these things, what do you suggest? what do you think in terms of to joe's point using the language, understanding the terms, how do we frame the argument, the case for democracy? as the polling just showed, 72 prosecutes believe the problem with elections are the politicians and not the system. and, yet, as joe noted coming into this segment, they vote for the very same politicians. and those politicians are the ones that are driving this narrative. this negative narrative. pressing them to feel this remorse and regret about their
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circumstances and then blaming others. the how do we break that cycle? because you have that ability to sort of understand the language. >> have you had a meaningful track record of he results and success? meaningful. so it is significant. measurable. can you hold people accountable. track record which means good times and bad. results, things have actually happened. you had impact and success which means that people have benefited from what you've done. what is your track record? and second, instead of telling people what you're against which is what politicians all do and unfortunately, that's what the political profession teaches candidates to do, just go on the attack, you'd be much better off if you said we're not going to
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do any negative. doesn't mean you can't hold people accountable. tell people exactly what you're for and it doesn't happen that way. and the last point, social media. you're going to clip elements of this. joe and meek yashgs i appreciate you having me on. i know that on twitter people who are going to be screaming at me. and screaming at you for having me on. we want to -- >> frank, you know what we call that? we call that friday, frank. and it's funny. people are already angry because elysse actually talked to trump republicans who said the things that disturbed us. we have choices here. we can weaken, have a very closed conversation. we can be in the bubble. or we can listen to what other americans are thinking even when what they're thinking disturbs us and makes us worry about the future of this country.
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you really don't care what people say about us having you or anybody else on. we need more republicans on this show. we ask republicans all the time to come on this show if they didn't vote to undermine the election, we love having senators on, republican senators and republican house members and ask all the time we would love to have republican candidates on. of course, they don't come on for a variety of reasons. but we always, always want them on. so i'm sorry, frank. that's just a side note. continue with your thought. >> so in the end, we have to engage in this. i'm upset at candidates that are only doing one debate. because we need to hear both sides at the same time on the same platform with the same rules. first. second, we have to take the time to learn from the other side even if we think there is nothing to learn to at least
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understand it. not empathize with it but you have to understand it. and third in the end, it really is about results. what has changed? have prices become more affordable? are we more safe and secure now than we used to be? what is your actual record? i'm a professor. the i have to teach the truth. and in the end, that is my pursuit now. i'm much less partisan than i used to be. what is the truth? what is happening? what are people saying? more importantly, what have they done? if we're in the pursuit of the truth, we can survive this country and as a democracy. >> frank, thank you very much for being on this morning. this was a pretty incredible conversation. >> a lot is playing out in the senate race in the state of pennsylvania. nbc news correspondent has been doing some great definitive reporting on that race. she joins us now. dasha, good morning. so you're taking a closer look today at the issue of crime. something elysse was talking
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about in the pennsylvania focus groups earlier this morning as well. >> yeah. willie, look, as these critical races tightening across the country, republicans, they work toward a red october in part by hammering democrats on the issue of crime. and nowhere is that more apparent than in pennsylvania's high stakes senate race between john fetterman and dr. oz. in pennsylvania, fears on the ballot. >> the record setting crime level in philadelphia getting worse. >> democrats drill down on abortion. >> codify roe. >> republicans hope to ride a wed wave on crime, spending millions on ads painting democratic senate candidate john fetterman as soft on crime. fetterman hitting back saying oz's policies put pennsylvanians in danger. >> it will make it easier for domestic abusers to get guns. >> crime rates in pennsylvania overall are falling but in philadelphia, it's on the rise. and homicide are almost on track
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to reach last year's record high. the celebrity it you tv doctor focusing on crime in an effort to cut in fetterman's strength in philadelphia and suburbs. small roundtable talks about crime and addiction and tours of neighborhoods like kensington. he took four foam a local detox center. >> this is a humanitarian crisis in the middle of our biggest cities in america and we're allowing it to happen. >> his events are small with repeat speakers. >> i'm fed up with the stum that is in place and playing politics. we live in these communities. >> including one who turned out to be a campaign staffer. >> what can you do as a senator about crime in pennsylvania? >> there's a lot of things you would do. i want to get to the root cause and start there. i'll walk you through the police as well. i was endorsed by the fraternal order of police. >> he told nbc news congress should use subpoena powers to press local governments for
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answers on crime. and promoting federal subsidies for school choice as a response. oz also questioned fetterman's record as head of pennsylvania's board of pardons in being too lenient. >> to often he seems to pay more attention to the feelings of the criminals than the innocent who were hurt. >> you are soft on crime? >> of course not. i'm actually effective on crime. and i believe in second chances. >> fetterman has law enforcement endorsements of his own and highlights his record as mayor of braddock, a town outside of pittsburgh. >> we funded the police. and created a strong partnership between the police and the community. so i'm the only candidate that i'm actually running on my record on crime whereas dr. oz has never done anything about crime except going around and running a bunch of commercials lying about my record. >> the commercials may be working. oz trimmed fetterman's lead in numerous polls. >> it worked by making people most concerned about crime a bit less support you have of the
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democratic candidate, a bit more support you have of the republican candidate. we're talking about shifts in the six to ten point range in favorability towards those candidates. >> and, guys, i've been talking to voters all over pennsylvania, all over the political spectrum from suburbs to cities. they told me that crime and public safety are among the top issues. we'll have more voter conversations for you next week ahead of that first and only debate between oz and fetterman on tuesday. joe? mika? >> all right. dasha burns, thank you very much for that report. let's bring in now must be might be legal analyst charles coleman and an nbc news security and intelligence analyst. i think we want to take a closer look at crime in america. major
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philadelphia. >> yeah. so, mark, you actually spent a lot of time in philadelphia going around on patrols with philadelphia police officers. we saw the stats there. murder rates. look like they're going to at least match the record from last year. what do you see? >> when i'm with the fully philly cops, it's difficult. you know, the fact remains that crime is a serious issue. the cops in philadelphia, there are two things important to point out. some feel, you know, some feel underappreciated and many actually note the strain that they have that, the police have
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with local government, whether it's a city council or mayor. the district attorney, it was almost started this lab experiment on law enforcement in which, you know, there is more leniency on prosecuting violent criminals. and the cops feel that. what i hear from cops on the street is, you know, the criminals know if you get caught with a gun, you're probably not going to jail. this is demoralizing to the police officers. now they're still incredibly dedicated. i think to my time, i spent the 24th and 25th district in kensington. you still have dedicated officers on the street. i was with two officers right out of the academy. they want to be there. i think of time even with the 18th district. i met an african american female sergeant. she had been undercover for a while. i said why do you do this? i looked her in the eye. she said because there are good people here if philadelphia.
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i want to help them. but the problem is i think they at times feel underappreciated and it's the relationship with local city officials, not necessarily at the house or senate level. what we hear in the races. this is local city officials that don't feel appreciated. >> yeah. and this is not just in philadelphia. this is not just in new york. of course, elysse talked to philadelphia voters who told them -- who told her they were really nervous about crime in philadelphia. it may impact the debate. but you also look at the oklahoma debate the other night. >> yeah. >> you see that crime is rising, some studies show even more. >> in this debate on wednesday night, oklahoma's democratic gubernatorial nominee was mocked after correctly claiming that violent crime rates are higher in oklahoma than they are in new
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york and california. take a look at this. >> so let's talk about the facts. the fact is the rates of violent crime are higher in oklahoma under your watch than in new york. >> it's not true. >> than in new york and california. that's a fact. >> we'll have that fact checked by the frontier superintendent. >> it's also a fact that -- >> hold on. oklahomans, do you believe we have higher crime than new york or california? that's what she just said. >> safety and security is my top priority. and it will be as governor. >> yeah. that is what she just said. and -- >> it's also right. >> oklahoma's republican governor kevin stitt interrupted her twice saying it wasn't true in that demeaning and condescending way. but as you said, joe, she is right. he is wrong. according to the cdc, oklahoma has a homicide rate of 9 deaths per 100,000 people compared with
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california's rate of 6.1 and new york's rate of 4.7. >> so oklahoma's rate for homicide is twice that per capita as new york. >> and based on the fbi's 2022 crime report, oklahoma recorded nearly 15,700 violent crimes. that's 393 for every 100,000 people. oklahoma also has the tenth highest violent crime rate in the u.s. among states reported. so gene robinson, i toss this to you for reaction. but again, i was just -- you was taken aback by how condescending the crowd appeared to be even the moderator. the we have to check that fact. not knowing their state's information. and her opponent when she was 100% right. >> right. and so, you know, perception on crime is all about perceptions,
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right? and also about actual crime rates. but the perception in this case counts more than the actual rates. and there's the sense that people have, i guess, that, you know, new york and california, these -- you know, the places where carjackings and awful stuff. it actually -- you know, less populated states, red states, they're terrible crime problems out there. and again, as we saw, worse than in new york or in california. worse in the place that's are brought to mind by candidates running on crime. so there is a mismatch between the reality and the perception that is being created. and so i guess charles, my
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question is how should candidates of either party actually be talking to voters about crime? what would a reasonable dialogue about crime rates that are in fact rising, they're not where they were in the 80s, but they have risen, what would a reasonable dialogue be like? >> the first thing we have to do is stop sensationalizing america's crime problem. that leads to inaccurate narratives and that gives rise to improper solutions that focus on symptoms rather than systems. and so what you do i mean by that? we have to understand and look at what it is that we know. the we know that roughly 80% of the crime that occurs in this country is nonviolent. low level misdemeanor and/or traffic violations. so that leaves about 20% of violent crime which admittedly is still on the rise but does not at all compare to the overall majority of the crime that is occurring.
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that is the first thing. the framing focuses on violent crime, violent crime is not at all a significant majority. that do we know? we know in addition to the statistics that the gop, generally speaking, and the right, has given up on anything that resembles the notion of inclusion with respect to the voters that it is courting. the significance of that is they have turned to a strategy that sensational crieses crime and weaponizes crime and that racializes crime to unfortunately engage a certain demographic of their voting base that is receptive to the tactics. because of that, it gets away from actual data driven solutions like creating employment opportunities, like investing in local economies and addressing the things that actually create crime. rather than -- those are systemic. rather than addressing symptoms like fund more police, build more jails, lock people up. anyone around for the crime bill
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in the 90s will tell that you is not a viable solution. with very to get away from it. the sensationalizing of crime and that narrative is why you're more likely to hear people talk about a roundup of gang members and there are no gun factories, for example, instead of talking about brett favre, for example, who is right now having trouble with respect to millions of dollars of misappropriation. that is how that racialization and that's how that weaponization of crime occurs. >> well, charles, the racialization of crime? the dramatizization of crime? you had elysse talking to black voters in philadelphia who were afraid to go to work. who are afraid to go home. they say they have to say a prayer before they go home.
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how is that the racialization of crime if that's what people in philadelphia and people in new york and people on the west coast and people in oklahoma city are saying? i mean let's play this clip quickly for you. >> play elysse's clip. >> who news that crime potentially impacting you or your family is the greatest fear you face right now? >> yes. absolutely. crime is all time high at this point. >> it's crazy. >> yeah. >> crime and -- >> it's beyond. >> that and telemarketers. >> yeah. >> and you've seen a rise specifically in your neighborhoods? >> there is rise everywhere. >> everywhere. >> throughout the city. >> the carjackings are crazy. you know, robberies.
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just doesn't make any sense. >> it seems to be more than environment every. >> it's not just the city. it's even into the suburbs. so it's -- but it's obviously more heavily concentrated in the urban areas. but absolutely. we don't even know going home today how we're going to feel, you know, whether you're driving or in public transportation what's going to happen. >> i feel like a lot of times i'm in a video game. get charlie home. >> yeah. >> it's a sense of respect is going on. i don't know where it went. but it's gone. that's one thing you're dealing with here. it's a lack of respect for life, people. never seen it before. >> to me, it's outrageous. a number of people being culled to the number of politician who's want to pass gun laws is
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just not -- you know why it's happening. they're being paid to look the other way when it comes to passing gun laws. the but we and our children end up paying the price for the money that they receive. >> so, charles, i love to rail on brett favre. i could just raise holy hell happily every day which is insane what mississippi's government did with the welfare funding and that impacted so many people so negatively. but you about the same token, these people are scared. they have legitimate problems. this is not make believe. and you look at the crime sets too for philadelphia. it matches it. they're upset because of gun control. they see politicians who haven't done anything. and they hear gun shots, guns are freely available at the same time they know that more regulation probably isn't going to completely keep guns off the
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street. how should we talk about the problem? >> i have go back to joe's question. two things can be true at the same time. so people who are in the state of -- in the city of philadelphia can legitimately gripe about gun control and public safety issues and those things be legitimate. at the same time, if you're looking at philadelphia and you're looking at the neighborhoods and the counties, you have families in bucks county because of the narrative being distorted that are far away from philadelphia where crime rates have gone down statewide that are saying that they're worried about crime now because they commute in and out of philadelphia. that crime isn't touching them. they're being affected and influenced by that narrative. the significance of that is that when you start having conversation about why crime occurs, they are less likely to invest in sustainable solutions. i think that's where you have to look at the importance of how we're framing the narrative. the question is, why is this happening? you're talking about gun
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control. you're talking about access to guns. what you're not talking about is the fact that at the end of the day, people in urban settings, people in underserved communities, people who feel underrepresented do not commit crime when they have opportunity. when they feel like their lives are valued and they feel like they can do something that is there. so the answer is what's going on with education funding in these places. when you approach gun violence like the national health crisis that it, is it is a health crisis, you begin to think about engineering different types of solutions for the problem that don't rely on underfunding of police and law enforcement. >> so let's take the other ide of this the policing aspect. cops are nervous about the plethora of guns readily available. walk us through other things that are going on. you're spending a lot of time
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with police officers. head count is down. n. a lot of jurisdiction as cross the country in part because some officers didn't want to get their covid vaccines. we know that there are concerns, some officers voice about police reforms in the wake of george floyd that made their job more difficult. even though we know how necessary those r so what are you hearing day to day from police officers? what do they think the situation is on the streets? >> sure. in terms of police reform, i haven't talked to a single cop on the streets of philadelphia who look at what happened with george floyd and they weren't absolutely, you know, horrified. many agree, yes, they need to be police reformed but given tools to do the job. you by this again, this is a local district attorney who made it actually more difficult to keep criminals off the streets. this say policy put forth. so philadelphia police department take a lot of guns off the street. they can't take those who use the guns off because of -- just
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an active policy of not prosecuting those. they give them probation and time served. the other part of it, is too, once a department kind of gets that sense of being a believer, the philly police are 500 understrength now. the last graduating class was only 70 officers. this is a nation fourth largest police force, the sixth largest city. these are serious issues. again, i see a lot of dedicated cops on the street. there is a perception anticipate this matters that they don't have the support of local officials and they don't have the tools to do their job. but again, at the same time, they are in favor of police reform. they just need to be able to get out on the street and, you know, prosecute criminals when committing the violent acts. they're about to pull two stores out of philadelphia. that is because of active policies of not prosecuting criminals that commit retail theft. these are things that cops talk about all the time. they need to be able to do their
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jobs. >> mark, charles, thank you both. this is a very robust and nuanced conversation and we should continue it. >> so important. so important. >> still ahead on "morning joe," the latest out of ukraine where the country faces a serious power cross-ice is after russia uses drones and missile to take out a series of power plants. plus, a string of recent defeats in court for republicans handed down by some of the most conservative courts and judges in the country. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. oe." we'll be right back. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable.
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so teachers, nurses, firefighters and workers like us can live where we work. while prop e makes it nearly impossible to build more housing join habitat for humanity in rejecting prop e, and supporting prop d to build more affordable housing for everyone. now. we're following a number of
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legal developments surrounding the investigation into the january 6 attack on the capitol anden donald trump's effort to overturn the resultsst 2020 election. the january 6 select committee last week voted to unanimously subpoena trump for documents and testimony related to the insurrection. and we're still waiting for that subpoena to be delivered. it was initially expected earlier this week. and while the exact timing of the subpoena is still unclear, "the washington post" reported yesterday that it will come by the end of the week so that could be some time today. the investigation of potential 2020 election interference, a federal appeals court has ruled against republican senator lindsey graham. he must testify before the grand jury about phone calls he made in georgia amid complaints from then president donald trump that there had been widespread voter
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fraud. graham contended, he shouldn't have to answer questions about the calls which are now part of fulton county district attorney willis' criminal investigation. because he made them in his capacity as chair of the judiciary committee chair at the time. the court of appeals disagreed with his argument. we were talking about special master appeal. it is very conservative circuit. it is also a no nonsense circuit on issues like this. they're going to rule this way most of the time. if the 11th circuit is there, you're going to see what the supreme court has done time and again. >> funny you should mention
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that. the. >> on a lot of these issues and swat them away. they're not, you know, donald trump may think it's his 11th circuit and it's his supreme court. willie, time and time again federal judges disabuse him of that notion. yes, they're very ideological. they're ideological on abortion. but they had the world views. by the time they're in law school, it's not like they picked them up and donald trump became president. but these questions about democracy and the questions about executive privilege, the questions about abuse by donald trump, they have been pretty unanimous. and here they're being very clear to lindsey graham in the 11th circuit. he was on the positively
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followed. you call the secretary of state. he through out ballots or find other ballots. you're going to testify. >> right. it's one more example. >> senator graham as argument serving as capacity as judiciary chairman. he is checking in on the votes. you mention the supreme court jed. amy coney barrett has denied an emergency request from a group of what wisconsin taxpayers to block the student loan forgiveness program. the order yesterday comes after the brown county taxpayers association urge the court to rule that the president's nationwide debt cancellation plan illegally by-passes the spending powers of congress. barrett who handles emergency matters arising from wisconsin acted alone in denying the requests. she also did not provide an explanation for rejecting that request.
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>> coming up, it's no the just aid to ukraine that could dry up if republicans take control of the house. there is also funding for the investigation into the january 6th attack on the capitol. the doj needs more money. but it is congress willing to cut the check? that's next on "morning joe." on. i tried everything to remove fabric odors, but my clothes still smelled. until i finally found new downy rinse and refresh! it doesn't just cover odors, it helps remove them up to 3 times better than detergent alone! find new downy rinse & refresh in the fabric softener aisle.
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fanduel and draftkings, two out of state corporations find new downy rinse & refresh making big promises. what's the real math behind prop 27,
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their ballot measure for online sports betting? 90% of profits go to the out of state corporations permanently. only eight and a half cents is left for the homeless. and in virginia, arizona, and other states, fanduel and draftkings use loopholes to pay far less than was promised. sound familiar? it should. vote no on prop 27. the justice department says it need $34 million in funding to continue its massive investigation into the january 6th capitol attack. they need it. it wants the money included in a spending bill that needs to pass in december because of concerns republicans would cut off funding next year if they win back the house in the midterm elections. the justice department has called the capitol attack the
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most wide-ranging investigation in its history with more than 870 arrests so far. but the doj says its work is far from over as there are still hundreds of rioters who have not yet been arrested. joining us now, nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly, the state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aaronberg. >> ryan, let's start with your reporting and start with the fact that as you show us every day, this investigation continues to go on. they continue to find more rioters, bring them to justice, and you're talking about the possibility of this having to get shut off if they run out of money. how dire is the situation for the doj? >> well, essentially right now, you know, they've been working on borrowed time because a lot
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of these prosecutors who were helping this case are basically lent out from local u.s. attorneys' offices. so they've volunteered personnel to be a part of this investigation. a lot of that has been eased a little bit, in fact, by some of the covid protocols we've seen over the past several years because a lot of these cases were working through over the phone system, where prosecutors can call in, don't have to fly in and out for in in-person hearings. but you have a situation where the u.s. attorney's office in d.c. is being aided by these federal prosecutor officers across the country, and it's not something that is set up for the long term. i think that's how you have to think of this, is a long-term project because, you know, basically think of this as a five-year-long span investigation or running beyond that, but the five years is essentially when you have to bring most of these charges by. and just based upon the numbers of how many people we know went into the u.s. capitol, how many
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people we know attacked police on january 6th, and you look at how many cases are being brought on a weekly basis, the numbers don't match up. you have about four arrests per week at this point, but you have a total spectrum of basically almost 3,000 people who either entered the capitol or attacked officers on january 6th. and right now when we're a little over 870 and, you know, you sort of bump that out a little bit and you're not going to get anywhere near that final number by the time sort of the statute of limitations begins approaching. there is a bit of a disconnect between justice department leadership and the folks work og these cases day to day about what is actually needed to bring this investigation home, because it really is overwhelming the court system, it's overwhelming the justice department, and they really do need just manpower, pure manpower to bring these cases to fruition. >> the base investigation in doj history there.
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david, time also of the essence if the republicans retake the house. that money will vanish. we hear $34 million what doj is saying they need. to someone who doesn't have the familiarity of the legal system you do, they say that's a lot of money, what's going on here? explain how that money is spent and why it would be important for an investigation like this. >> jonathan, he who controls the purse controls the agenda, so it is important that the doj gets this money because it's an unprecedented investigation on a massive scale, so they need it, yes, especially after the covid protocols, things are being done in person. there are witnesses to fly in. so this costs a lot of money. i doubt that many undecided voters are going to cast their ballots on this funding issue. so when or if the democrats lose the house at the midterm elections, there's an urgency now to get this done before congress turns into a pumpkin on january 3rd. and i think speaker mccarthy, as
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it happens, is going to eliminate the january 6th committee and won't be in any rush to send money the doj's way. the republican mantra is that the doj has become politicized. so it's really important that this money gets there. now, i still think that even if the money doesn't get there, that the doj investigation here will continue, the cases will continue, it's just that other priorities within the department of justice will have to be cut. and people around the country will feel the pinch because a lot of the prosecutors are coming from the district offices, not from main justice. so, this needs to get done and fast. coming up, an ominous warning from china. david ignatius says president xi has become a modern-day emperor, and that spells trouble on the world stage. we'll talk about that and get the latest from the war in ukraine.
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