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4:00 in new york. happy friday. it is a very busy day of news here with the disgraced twice impeached ex-president subpoenaed today, and donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election that he lost. also in the news today, trump ally steve bannon has been sentenced to four months in prison behind bars for his refusal to comply with the subpoena from the january 6th select committee. a member of the committee, democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren will join us in a few moments. we begin with an incredible brand new piece of reporting from the "washington post" that makes it crystal clear that donald trump keeping government records including classified document at his private residence and members club was nothing short of a serious national security crisis for the united states. the post is reporting this quote some of the classified documents recovered by the fbi from trump's mar-a-lago home and private club included highly sensitive intelligence regarding iran and china.

that's according to people familiar with the matter. if shared with others, the people said, such information could expose intelligence gathering methods that the u.s. wants to keep hidden from the world. at least one of the documents seized by the fbi describes iran's missile program, according to these people who spoke anonymously to describe an ongoing investigation. other documents describe highly expensive intelligence work. intelligence about two of the countries that pose some of the biggest, most vexing challenges in u.s. foreign policy. iran and china, were among the most sensitive records found at mar-a-lago. those records retrieved only after doj obtained a warrant to search trump's residence after the team claimed they had complied with the subpoena, and after trump and his team stone walled the national archives and justice department for many many months. the posts summing up the security risks of trump holding on to classified documents this

way, quote, people aiding u.s. intelligence efforts could be dangerous and methods cob compromised. and u.s. allies could retaliate for actions it has taken in secret. the nature of these documents is now likely to have a major impact on the ex-president's potential critical exposure. that's according to experts once again from the new piece of reporting in the "washington post." quote the exceptional sensitivity of these documents and the reckless exposure of invaluable sources and methods of u.s. intelligence capabilities concerning these four adversaries will certainly influence the justice department's determination of whether to charge trump or others with willful retention of national defense information under the espionage act. that's former senior justice department official david lofman offering that to the "washington post." this stunning brand new reporting that donald trump kept highly classified records about china and iran at mar-a-lago is

where we begin today. ben rose is here, former deputy national security adviser to president obama and msnbc contributor. also joining us, harry litman, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney. and jackie alemany, investigations reporter as well as an msnbc contributor, and with me at the table, jim walden, former assistant u.s. attorney for the eastern district of new york. jackie, this is your paper's reporting, your colleagues' reporting, tell me what you guys have learned. >> some outstanding reporting by any colleague, that bill done all of the reporting we have done so far about this investigation that really spilled into public view obviously when the fbi did first execute that search warrant to take back hundreds and thousands of these documents from mar-a-lago. but i think as you noted what devlon's reporting underscores about this information that was taken is that the risks that

come with the former president taking these documents. he has consistently tried to dismiss the investigation, down play it, his supporters and those around the former president have not taken it seriously, but as you outlined, these are materials about guarded government secrets, where even if a whiff or a hint of some of this information regarding china and iran gets out, it could imperil sources and methods and information that the u.s. government has invested millions of dollars in order to, you know, maintain our national security. we had previously reported that there were some of the most sensitive state secrets included in these documents, but it gets even more specific as you noted that it is related to iran and china, two issues that the former president was particularly obsessed with, and has continued to this day to

speak about. >> well, and ben rhodes, notably two issues that he pokes the current president about quite frequently. i mean, i think it is not a stretch to posit one of the motives for lying about what had been returned. >> no, absolutely, it's literally impossible to think of any good reason why someone would want to have highly classified reports lying around a members club in florida about the iranian ballistic missile program or about some sensitive aspects of the chinese government. it really raises the bar in terms of the necessity of answering the question why did he want to maintain this information. i don't think it's because donald trump takes a particular interest in the particularities of the iranian ballistic missile program. you know, clearly he had some purpose for wanting to have

these documents. either, you know, for his own leverage, either because they're highly valuable pieces of information. but also let's not -- let's not allude just how profoundly sensitive these documents are. these are the kinds of reports that likely make reference to sources and methods of collection or that any foreign adversary can get the documents and reverse engineer them in a way to try to understand how the u.s. might be gathering this information, in the country and other parts of the world. the bottom line is not only is this illegal to do, it's highly dangerous for some of the most sensitive matters of u.s. national security, and there's breaking light around the question of what donald trump wanted to do with this information in the first place, why he went to such lengths to not return it when he was required to do so. what was he doing with this stuff? >> harry litman, i think folks

have been careful to point out that criminality doesn't actually rest on the answers to any of those questions. the crime is taking the documents. the crime is the obstructive behavior that has gone on since he's been engaged with doj, and instructed attorneys to lie on his behalf about the whereabouts of his documents. the criminality isn't tied up too much in the motive but his response makes clear that he intended to keep these documents, and again i'm not going to put all of this up. i don't want to give -- the defense has to do with not possessing sensitive documents pertaining to china and iran. i'll read a fraction of this. who knows what nara and the fbi plant into documents or subtract from documents, we'll never know, will he. he's not saying i didn't have the classified secrets about iran and china. he said who knows what was added

or deleted from them. harry, we're going to fix your audio. we can't hear you. you're on mute. start over. there you go. >> is that better? >> that's better. we don't want to miss anything. start over. >> previously he was analogizing to overdue library books, and as you say, it puts the lie to that, more like having uranium, and you're right, it doesn't change the elements of the crime, but it makes the likelihood of charging stronger. these are the kinds of documents that, you know, edward snowden would have jumped for joy to get their value lies precisely in the grave danger they present to the united states and anybody looking at these documents and what he took and deciding should we charge him would have to say there's never been a case in the history of the u.s. involving such serious documents where

charges were not brought. in that sense, criminality is very much on the table as a result of the highest level of seriousness that these documents present, and of course, it begs the question, as ben said, he chose to keep them, and he chose to conceal these very ones, why. their value lies precisely in the absolute grave damage they could do to everyone's national interests and especially anybody to works with the united states abroad. >> i spoke to sue gordon shortly after the seizure of the first batch, i think, of classified documents. here's what she said about what he would have had and the danger of him having it would have been. let me play that for you jim. >> he has had at his disposal for a long period of time information that if he used that information to advance an item,

it could have devastating consequences to national security. i can't think of a simpler way to say why i think that this moment is so difficult. and that's because there's no justification and knowing who he is and that he doesn't fully understand but he may not decide to protect if he wanted to do something different. this is a tough situation. i'm glad that we have worked so hard to recover the information. but i fear that it has been in essentially the public domain for a long time. >> haunting now, knowing that the government believes there may still be more, knowing what it was, classified documents pertaining to iran and china. >> so the department of justice has a handbook that they use

when they're trying to decide whether to bring a criminal case, and the top of the list is the nature and seriousness of the offense. so everything that you've heard tonight is that this is a grave offense. it's not just serious. it's grave. but there are other facts that we know that are going to make it worse. where were they stored, who had access, where did they take that access, either the documents themselves or the informs contained therein, and what are the consequences, are spies going to be identified and killed. are intelligence methods going to be revealed? that may bring us to the point where nobody has a choice but to charge donald trump because the consequences are so severe. >> jackie, i want to ask you about the sort of body of reporting in terms of what we understand about the investigation. the pulse has also reported on -- and i think devlon also broke the story about the white house employee or the former

white house military aid who became a trump private employee and was one of the cooperating witnesses about the importance of the surveillance video and corroborating and now there's this other sort of piece. this other brick in the wall, if you will, of what was there. do you have any sense or do you have any visibility into the pace of the investigation. >> yeah, we have a little bit of visibility into that. what our sources have told us is the department of justice is further along on this case than they are on january 6th, the january 6th investigation which has been going on for much longer. but i think because of the time sensitivity and the nature of these documents, the department of justice is obviously obligated to move a bit quicker here to get these documents back. that is why the archives since the former president left office, you know, was so persistent in bothering the former president's lawyers to get these documents back.

from the very beginning our reporting has indicated that nature of this investigation was very serious. right after we broke the story last january that the former president was ripping up documents and that those documents that the january 6th congressional committee had received arrived shredded and then right after that reported that it actually, in fact, there were many documents that seemed to be missing from this former president sort of total universe of documents. we were told there was sensitive and classified information in that, and this was going to become an issue. this was something that was nearly immediately after kind of spilling into view after that reporting referred to the department of justice. and, you know, i think every step along the way, our reporting has showed that there are now, you know, multiplying

legal complications here including the reporting that you just pointed out about the former trump aide that initially testified before the fbi and the department of justice when they started this investigation, and then appeared a second time and gave dramatically different answers and was -- and was seen on the surveillance video that was obtained by the department of justice, going against the asks of the doj, moving these boxes of sensitive information. so there is a growing mountain of information that is not working in the favor of the former president. >> so let me put this up for you, harry litman, i mean, this is just to build on jackie's point here. these are the trump allies who have already been interviewed by doj in the mishandling of national defense information. documents found at mar-a-lago,

christina bob, -- bobb his attorney who misrepresented the whereabouts of the documents. cash patel, trump adviser patel has appeared before the grand jury in a document probe. cash patel, who has been deeply involved in disputes, appeared recently before the federal grand jury looking into the handling of documents at mar-a-lago. patel served as the national security and defense official during the administration and the summer became one of trump's designees to interact with the national archives and doj as both agencies have tried to repossess classified records trump kept. the list isn't over though, wallet, the personal aid jackie and i are talking about, seen on tape moving the boxes and is now sharing information.

i don't think he's technically cooperating but sharing information. pat cipollone. patrick philbin, that was his deputy, white house counsel, and michael, trump's executive assistant, who went to work for him at mar-a-lago, and that is reporting from the "washington post," cnn, nbc news and "the new york times." how long do you think this investigation is and what specific threat does that group represent to trump? >> pretty far. if you dry a venn diagram of that group, you'll have a little shaded in space in the middle that is donald trump all the way. let me talk about that first row. cash patel, he's the guy who tried to support trump's notion that he had magically declassified the documents. why do you have him in the grand jury, i see one reason only that you have him in the mar-a-lago grand jury, and that's to explore trump's punitive defense, even though it's garbage that he magically declassified.

christina bobb, the lawyer who was hoodwinked into the signing at attestation, the man who moved around the documents. the other three, that's testimony that goes to trump's knowledge, we would have them anyway. those three up top, and especially patel to me indicates an investigation that is zeroing in the cross hairs very precisely at trump. it's only been a couple of weeks that they have had solid evidence of the attempt, and made it closure that trump had ordered him around, and i know you've wondered before in conversations why is it taking a while, this would be, if they did it say around christmas, kind of warp speed for the doj, but those top three witnesses to me say donald trump, donald trump, donald trump. >> and alex cannon i think said trump told him to lie, specifically, and that's the thing. let me show you what cash

patel's defense of the mishandling of national defense information is. at least as he shared it on tv. president trump as a sitting president has a unilateral authority of declassification, he can stand over a set of documents and say these are declassified, and that is done with defentive action immediately. >> these people would be funny if they weren't so dangerous. he's not a sitting president, cash. and trump doesn't even say that's what he did. trump told sean hannity, so i mean, like these two can't even keep their defense straight. >> no, and listen, this is the same problem they're having with the special master. you can say whatever you want on tv or the public domain, but when you have to go into a grand jury proceeding or into a court and swear under oath, the stakes kind of go up, and so i don't think that mr. patel probably answered a single question. i think he invoked his fifth

amendment, that's my guess. if he did, he better watch himself, just like steve bannon today, for contempt, percentage is a federal offense, it carries a serious consequence. unless there's evidence which we think there's none that trump actually declassified these documents. >> trump doesn't keep secrets. if he had evidence, he would have shared it with sean hannity on tv. >> you're absolutely right. >> we know he doesn't keep secrets, they wrestled with how to deal with secrets for four years. the why is always the most ominous piece and for self-preservation i don't know if i want to know why trump doesn't care about national defense information but it's clear that he doesn't. i want to read this reporting to you. in "politico," trump's mar-a-lago is heaven for spies. this is from back in 2017. but it's some great reporting to sort of bring back into the conversation now. trump relishes the comforts of his mar-a-lago estate for repeated weekends away from

washington, former secret service and intelligence official says the resort is a security nightmare, vulnerable to casual and professional spies. trump's private club in south florida has been transformed into a fortress of armed guards, military grade radar, bomb sniffing dogs and metal detection check points. there are vulnerables, the stream of guests who can enter the property without background checks, this is while he was president. much of that has been stripped away, and we already know, it's been penetrated by folks who carried the golf bag with lindsey graham and the twice impeached ex-president. what are your sort of currently thoughts and concerns about what sue gordon spoke to, the vulnerability of these documents that in her words have been in the public space for too long. >> it connects to the declassification issue. if these were love letters from kim jong un, that would be one thing. based on reporting, these documents would be describing modes and methods of u.s.

intelligence collection about enormous issues. the amount of information that feeds into our knowledge of the iranian ballistic missile program is vast. sensitive matters with regard to china, even bigger. right? and here's what worries me. people really know that these documents were in an entirely unsecure location. people wander in and out of that club. we have seen cell phone videos of people getting drunk at weddings in that club. you're telling me that the chinese government didn't try to get people into mar-a-lago, where they knew that there was information that was vulnerable. the worst case scenario is this information was compromised and in the hands of our adversaries. even without that, if you're someone who's cooperated with u.s. intelligence around the world, what are you thinking right now? you know that that information was not secure. we have enormous issues with these countries. iran has resumed its nuclear program. the marrying of that nuclear

program is one of the most important topics for u.s. intelligence today. what if we lost insight, just because of the fact that it's been revealed that trump had this kind of stuff at mar-a-lago, and didn't have it secure. what about china, we would love to know what china's intentions are with respect, for instance, to taiwan. what if we are going to lose insight because of the reckless actions of donald trump. i think when people hear stuff about sources and methods, it can sound kind of distant, maybe this is something that people like me say on television. think about it. if anybody who has ever watched a spy movie thought about it. if you've got information lying around mar-a-lago, of course there are other countries that are trying to get their hands on these documents, and of course anybody who helps the united states, either human source or a technical source around the world is now thinking, can we trust the united states with this stuff with our work, with our sacrifice, if, in fact, we don't even know what donald trump had down there in

mar-a-lago, and we don't know what happened to it. >> and the government, it's not clear that the government has full visibility into everything that he took there, and where it all is, and whether it's all been brought back. no one is going anywhere. when we come back, the january 6th select committee with a scorching and personal letter attached to his formal subpoena today, addressed to the twice impeached ex-president donald trump laying out how he was the center of an orchestrated attempt coup plot that ended with a bloody attack on the nation's capitol. committee member zoe lofgren will join us on this and where she sees the likely battle going next. his former lawyer says he's become more dangerous than ever. michael cohen joins us later in the program. also later in the show, president joe biden continues his midterm sprint across some key battle ground states, selling his agenda to the american people and voters. white house chief of staff ron

klain also among our guests today. all that and more after "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

michael is back. and he's more dangerous. maybe the only way he can die... is if i die too. [ screaming ] it was the surprise announcement at the last public hearing of the january 6th select committee. just because it was a matter of time before they did it formally does not make what happened today any less historic. donald j. trump was officially subpoenaed by the january 6th select committee today. he owes the committee documents relative to the investigation by november 4th of this year. that's two weeks from today. and to appear for a deposition on november 14th. notably after the midterm elections. keep in mind, the twice

impeached disgraced ex-president is expected by many to resist the subpoena, meaning a protracted legal battle is very likely. the next chapter in this conflict. in a later attached to the subpoena, chairman bennie thompson, and liz cheney write as demonstrated in our hearings, we have assembled overwhelming evidence, including from did you describens of former appointees and staff that you personally orchestrated and oversaw a multipart effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election and to obstruct the peaceful transition of power. joining us congresswoman zoe lofgren of california, a member of the house january 6th select committee. congresswoman, thank you for being here on such a historic day. >> happy to do it. >> what do you expect to happen next? what are the scenarios that the committee is prepared for? >> well, we'll see what the former president does. you know, he owes us all of these documents that we've asked for. that's very important.

and he also is legally obliged to come in and testify before the committee. we understand that, you know, the midterm elections are just a short while from now, so we've scheduled his appearance for after the midterms so as not to interfere with that. but the documents, of course, are due so that we can prepare ourselves for his testimony. let's assume that he will comply with his legal obligation in this case, although as he showed on january 6th he's not always done that. >> i want to read a little bit more from the letter for our viewers and talk to you about it. you write this, the evidence demonstrates that you knew this activity was illegal and unconstitutional and also knew that your assertions of fraud were false, but to be clear even if you now claim you actually believed your false election claims, that is not a defense.

your subjective belief could not render this conduct justified, excusable or legal. the work of the committee bore this out so meticulously, the pillar of evidence that he knew he lost, the pillar of evidence that he knew the claims were fraudulent and the growing mountain of evidence that he knew that violence was the plan and that he was very much part of that and wanted to be there for it. how do you expect him to respond to all of the evidence you already have that he broke the law? >> well, his first letter to us was kind of a, you know, all cops rant repeating lies. but i think the committee is very carefully laid out the evidence of what he did, and his state of mind while he was doing it. if he, you know, what if he were to say, well, even though i

knew, i now believe or had a fantasy or qanon told me, who knows. it really doesn't justify sending an armed mob to overturn the election on january 6th. so whatever he thought there was nothing that could justify that. >> do you have any sense as to whether or not doj welcomes an appearance or hopes he does not appear, should he become a target of their probe? >> i have no idea. we have not been in communication with the department of justice on this. we're aware that some of the information that we have is really very very distressing that they have mainly because witnesses have led us know they have also shared things with the doj but we haven't been in a direct sharing mode at this point, although certainly when we finish our work, all of our material will be made known to the public including doj. >> and that will happen after the report is complete, after

the committee's work is done, and then no holds barred, you will turn everything over to doj. >> we're going to have to redact certain, i mean, if you've got a piece of testimony and you've got somebody's cell phone number, you want to redact that before you release it to the public. but the intention is to release all of our evidence, yes. >> has a decision been made or will you wait and see how this issue of trump's testimony plays out on a criminal referral for him. >> we're going to wait and see how he responds. let's not assume. although there's ample evidence to assume he does the wrong thing, i'm prepared to see if he will, for once, step forward and fulfill his legal obligation to come forward. that would be the best case. if he doesn't, then we'll have to examine what our other alternatives are. >> i want to read from the list of allegations that accompanied the subpoena today.

twice impeached ex-president is accused by the committee of quote purposely and maliciously disseminating false allegations of fraud related to the 2020 election. attempting to corrupt doj. illegally pressuring state officials to change election results in their states. orchestrating and overseeing an effort to obtain and transmit false electoral certificates, pressuring pence to refuse to count electoral votes on january 6th. pressuring members of congress to object to valid state electors. filing false information under oath in federal court. summoning thousands of supporters to washington on january 6th. refusing to disband those rioters, the body of evidence that you have marshalled to support every one of those allegations is extraordinary. does the document request for trump fall under those specific allegations or are there new things that you want to shore

up? >> well, if you'll take a look at the requests for documents, some of it is to shore that up. some of it are concerns we have in other areas, for example, witness intimidation, and interference with the committee's action. but i would just recommend reading through the requests for documents because i think that is also enlightening. >> are you in a different place than you were at the end of the final public hearing or the most recent public hearing in terms of the two secret service agents that many members of the committee made clear they believe lied to you? >> well, we're going to be asking, as a matter of fact, we're reaching out right now to reinterview various members of the secret service. we have received, as i think i mentioned earlier, we got over a million documents from the secret service, and it was a tremendous effort on the part of the staff to actually go through

that mountain of material and discover relevant pieces of evidence, and we're now in a position to do interviews which are being scheduled now. >> do you believe or wonder if any of the documents, the ex-president is working so hard to keep from the fbi and the mar-a-lago criminal investigation are responsive to your subpoena today? >> we don't know that. i mean, we don't know what he's hiding. and so we can't know whether any of it falls within what we've asked for. obviously the classified document issue is not squarely in front of the january 6th committee. we're reading the news like everyone else. we have made a request for a variety of documents, and one of the -- some of the investigators wondered whether -- when the archives went to look for some of that, and it was missing,

that might have stimulated some of the inquiries but that's speculation on our part. >> can you pull back the curtain on the pace of activity? is the committee still very aggressively pursuing the remaining lines of inquiry and the remaining witnesses. is it in a frantic, just tell us what's going on. >> i don't think we're frantic, but we are determined, and we meet frequently. as i mentioned before, when we're out of session, we're in our district, so we meet virtually, and multiple times a week and there are members, cluster of members working on specific issues. we met some of us this morning on some of these issues, so yes, we're working hard. >> and would you rule out another public hearing if evidence develops that warrants that? >> we won't rule anything out. nothing is planned right now. but as i say, we are busily

working and if something critical, set of information became available, we wouldn't want to rule that out. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren joining us on a historic day, the january 6th select committee showing that subpoena for testimony of documents for the ex-president. thank you very much for spending time with us. >> good to see you. a quick break for us and then we will jump over to our panel to talk all about the subpoena for the ex-president and what happens next. don't go anywhere. x-president and what happens next. don't go anywhere. my active psoriatic arthritis can slow me down. now, skyrizi helps me get going by treating my skin and joints. along with significantly clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after two starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi, 90% clearer skin

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we are back with ben, harry, jackie, and jim. in america is it the day you hope you'll never live to see as an ex-president is subpoenaed by congress as part of an investigation in his role in plotting a coup, but as a watcher of this committee, it's amazing, one, that they got to this point, and two that they got to this point now. take me inside your reporting on this day-to-day. >> yeah, it does feel like a dramatic and important move but something that the committee highlighted in the subpoena that they just released to the public, which was extremely transparent, actually included the most detail the committee has put out yet when issuing a subpoena, including a schedule for the 19 different and detailed specific document requests that they're asking of

the former president. but they also give some historic precedent here, that, yes, this sounds big and unusual, and unprecedented but it's not. actually, i want to just go and read it, what the lawmakers pointed out because for us history nerds and people who have studied history it's actually really interesting. they list that former presidents john quincy adams, john tyler, teddy roosevelt, william taft, herbert hoover, and gerald ford have testified before congress after leaving office, and you know, the reason why this subpoena ultimately came on friday was because the committee was really working hard and closely studying precedent, studying history in order to get this right. there's also a number of other recent cases for the committee to examine that have actually been successful in the courts.

mazar's versus trump, his personal accounting firm was subpoenaed by the house oversight committee for financial documents after music l -- michael cohen raised questions and alleged there were issues and fraudulent accounting claims in the documents. the former president obviously fought this subpoena, ultimately the oversight committee won, but it took three years, only last month did they start getting a trove, the first of a trove of documents and record from mazar's, the committee really for the past week wanted to get this right. i have been told it was a collaborative effort, and yes, while the rhetoric has sort of been this is a symbolic subpoena, i think that is convention that will wisdom. i think that this could, we could get far enough into this where if the former president wholesale refuses to cooperate in any way with the committee, we've heard from sources that the former president's, you

know, willingness to testify is sort of an empty threat that this committee could ultimately hold him in criminal contempt. they could issue a contempt citation that could go to the department of justice and if he pulls a steve bannon, and again, refuses to cooperate, which is a pattern for this president, then it could wind through the courts and even if this committee maybe isn't reconstituted in the new congress, the 118th congress, this could still be a matter that outlives the committee. >> it is so important to understand that they are doing just that, harry. they are doing everything as jackie's reported and just noted, everything is done meticulously so that they have put things in motion that will exist when liz cheney and adam kinzinger are no longer in congress. i want to read more from the letter because i do think the letter was written very much as an investigative move but they

certainly had an eye toward the history that they were making. and they do write about these former presidents that jackie mentioned. this is from another part of the letter quote to rump, you took all these actions despite the rulings of 60 courts rejecting your election fraud claims and challenges to the legality of the 2020 presidential election despite having specific and details information from the justice department and your senior campaign staff. informing you that your election claims were false and despite your obligation as president to ensure that the laws of our nation are faithfully executed, ensured, you were at the center of the first and only effort by any u.s. president to overturn an election and obstruct the peaceful transition of power ultimately culminating on a bloody attack on our own capitol and on the congress itself. harry. >> that is one hard hitting letter, and understand, it's an

inessential part of the overall package. the legal document is the subpoena itself, but they decided to write this up. it is incendiary. to me, by the way, it has a lot of jamie raskin's fingerprints on it, especially with the history stuff, but i think it was written as you suggest for the history books, and it is so categorical, so inculpatory and so designed to make donald trump blow his top. i just want to say i understand it is the conventional wisdom that everyone's ready to fight. i'm just not sure about it. i know the congresswoman, you know, said no commitments of course we want trump to do the right thing, but of course she understands he probably won't. but it's not clear to me it's in either their interest or trump's, and i think at a minimum with a letter like this, the design is to be sure there is a double exclamation point on their report when they say he

didn't show up, notwithstanding having chapter and verse of no fewer than ten different charges laid out against him in the strongest possible terms. >> you know, ben, it is amazing that they are holding all the cards still on this question of a criminal referral. they've issued their subpoena. they're going to wait and see what he does, but this committee has not ruled out one or multiple criminal referrals based on their committee's work. >> yeah, i think the fact that they worked their way up to the subpoena demonstrates that the approach they chose was to kind of methodically work their way up the food chain to trump himself and to this question of a criminal referral. but i think the nature of that letter that lays it all out and the fact of the subpoena itself and the way that the subpoena itself could create further potential exposure for trump, i think it suggests the direction they're going is very much towards a criminal referral.

i mean, the challenge, right, is that everything that they've taught us, everything that they've showed us through their hearings and investigation points to multiple crimes committed by donald trump, and leaves this question as to what happens, and is doj going to move forward to this, are they going to refer it. we can't turn our eyes away from the obvious plain truth that has been staring at us in every hearing that this president, donald trump, knowingly was committing crimes, and that presents an enormous challenge ultimately to doj, and that challenge may even be greater if one or both houses of congress flip to republicans who want to do everything they can to discredit or obstruct any prosecution from going forward, and it leaves us back where we were in 2020, which is ultimately the doj is going to have a lot to say about this, but so are the american people in the way they cast their ballots in the next couple of elections. i think we're reaching towards an end here, we'll get a report, see what happens with this

subpoena, but the question of whether or not donald trump committed any crimes has been asked and answered throughout the process of the january 6th hearings. now the question is what is doj going to do about it, and what are the american people going to do about it. >> our politics are sick, so to ben's point, what will the people do about it. on the right, my old party, probably not much. it's likely, some of the election deniers will prevail. they're not all going to lose. fairly or unfairly, all on merrick garland, what does merrick garland do with the pile of evidence of trump's criminality? >> i don't think he's going to do anything before the midterm elections, but i think the committee had your point in youd when they were crafting this subpoena. 90% of it was legal. 10% of it was game theory, right? they wanted to paint him as a coward if he didn't show up at the hearing. that's why they put the names of the other presidents that testified. that's why they were baiting him

in the cover letter and in the email itself. and i think that they're banking on the fact that he will want a show. and my guess is that they're going to be prepared for it and that there may be some secret documents that he doesn't know that they have. so, it'll be really interesting to see how it plays out. >> we will all be watching. my thanks to ben rhodes and jackie. stick around. as we've reported, steve bannon was sentenced today for defying this committee. he will be spending four months in prison. but will the trump ally actually serve time? will that happen? we'll look at that next. ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check. check. and check.

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federal courthouse in washington, d.c. today former trump adviser steve bannon was sentenced to four months in prison and ordered to pay a $6,500 fine. that is his reward for ignoring a january 6 committee subpoena. in july he was convicted on two contempt of congress charges. don't expect to see him in an orange jump suit any time soon though. the judge today said he'd allow bannon to walk free while his lawyers appeal the sentence. do you think steve bannon serves times for his crimes? >> i do. there were two witnesses. the jury convicted him in less than three hours. there are no serious appellate issues. i think the appeals court is going to uphold this conviction and he is going to go to jail. >> harry, is that a good thing? does it prove the system works,

or do you think this is sort of badge or honor? or does it not matter? >> no, it matters. he's a consummate jackass and he acted contentiously all the way through. i agree with jim. he'll eventually do time. he caught a major break from the judge. as jim says, there are no substantial issues there, but the judge nevertheless held there were. and that's what keeps him out of jail while the appeal is ending. that's the luckiest break in the headline of the sentencing. >> anyone that can work jackass into a block about steve bannon is my hero for the day. thank you for being on set. someone else who went to prison for donald trump, michael cohen, on this very big day of news. don't go anywhere. that's next. day of news don't go anywhere. that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ wayfair's way day is back!

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. sir, the constitution says treason is punishable by death. you've accused your adversaries of treason. who specifically are you accusing of treason? >> i think a number of people. i think what you look is that they have unsuccessfully tried to take down -- >> who are you speaking about. >> -- the wrong person. if you look at comey, if you look at mccain, if you look at probably people higher than that -- it's this whole thing about flipping they call it. i know all about flipping. for 30, 40 years, i've been watching flippers. everything is wonderful and they get 10 years in jail and flip on whoever the next highest one is or as high as you can go. it should be outlawed. it's becoming very serious from what i'm hearing. investigate the investigators.

i think you'll see things nobody would have believed. this was the worst hoax in the history of our country. >> hi, again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. i promise those are not things we showed you today to trigger your worst memories of the trump era, trump accusing law enforcement leaders of treason, trump intimidating witnesses in investigations that threatened him, and then boasting there about the politically motivated investigation into the investigators of the russia probe that would go on to turn out nothing. those are things we should all be prepared to see on day one if trump or those who share his autocratic impulses ascend to the white house again. our next guest describes himself as a political prisoner, and he did indeed jail time for protecting trump. but on the other side of that scarring experience, michael cohen says trump is more dangerous now than ever before. he argues trump's well-worn patterns nearly guarantee there is classified material at

trump's other residences, and the obstruction of the investigation is indeed a dare, a dare to merrick garland to see just how much he can get away with and just how high above the law he can continue to fly. especially considering the news today that among the documents the former president took with him to mar-a-lago are highly sensitive intelligence documents regarding iran and china. information in the "washington post" reports, quote, could expose intelligence gathering methods that the u.s. wants to keep hidden from the world. criminal investigation into his handling of those government secrets presses for and his subpoena for the 16 subcommittee, it may seem the walls are closing in on the latest present. as cohen writes in his latest book "revenge," quote, this is what the american public has to understand. there are two separate times of justice in the united states. one is for those who have the

power. they don't pay for their legal actions. the other -- the other is for the rest of us, and we pay too damn much. one of my sins was thinking i was a member of the class of protected individuals, those who are able to get away with anything they want. i am not. it's where we begin the hour with former personal attorney to donald trump, michael cohen, author of the brand-new best seller "revenge." so, we're back with the book again, but with your more, i think, intangible warning that his autocratic impulses would make these things the norm. >> yeah. and this is donald trump. donald trump does not care about policy. he does not care about process. he doesn't care about the judicial system. and he cares least of all about this committee, which he has called fake since day number one. rest assured, trump will not -- i've been watching the news all day long.

i've been getting emails and text messages. all right. they subpoenaed him. it means nothing. it may be historic in america, but it's irrelevant. why? because trump is not going to comply. he will not comply with any of the documents that they're seeking, nor will he show up to testify. why? because he's guilty. and he knows it. he will do what he does best. that's delay, delay, delay and criticize, criticize, criticize the entire process, again, trying to hold himself out as a victim. >> what about the mar-a-lago investigation? does that stand a better chance of holding him accountable? >> no because he's going to do the same thing. he's going to delay this post-the election, the midterm election, and by that time his hope is that the house will flip to -- i know he likes the word "flipping." it will flip to republican, work his magic, be loyal to him, and put an end to this entire thing. >> the durham investigation

which was his fever dream of an investigation into the investigators ended with a wimper, no convictions, two acquittals, one guilty plea. but trump thought it was going to take down the mueller investigators. you've warned that would become the new normal if he were to ever be near the oval office again. explain. >> and it will. there will be -- nothing that we know will continue to exist. he will change the entire way that we live our lives here in america if he or a donald trump 2.0, some acolyte that is loyal to him in the stupid way that i was loyal to him, the america that we know will not be. and that's what "revenge" really goes into. it's a warning, it's a roadmap to what donald trump tried to do during the time that he had power in terms of changing democracy into an autocracy for his own benefit. and then look at the mar-a-lago documents. it's the same exact thing. he didn't -- he took those

documents specifically for two things, power and money. and the fact that we're even engaging in this conversation should be scary to every one of your viewers. he took it for power so that he can call up kim jong-un. he can call up mohammad bin salman, xi jinping or whomever and say, i've got some pretty serious documents here. then he'll turn around and say, but i want a billion dollars for them and i want it in an overseas account. i want you to stick it in jared's hedge fund or something like that. that's all he thinks about, how he's going to use the presidency of the united states -- people look at donald as this bloviated oom pa loom pa. he may be stupid, he's evil. >> he's dogged. >> yes, dogged. this is exactly the problem. he is exactly what our

forefathers, our founding fathers of this country feared that there would be a president that wanted to be more than a president, who wanted to be the autocrat, dictator, monarch, supreme ruler. >> so, you are more fired up than you were the first two times you were here talking about the book. is what you're seeing in our politics that people won't wake up? >> it's scary how they won't. i don't know how many more times people who know donald, people who legitimately know him and know what he's thinking, are coming forward, like myself and this book, this roadmap to protecting democracy. and i'm trying to sound the warning alarm. but everybody has hands off right now. oh, it's donald, right? he's an idiot. it doesn't matter. no, it's not true. he's an evil genius when it comes to what he's doing. and all of this, all of this, is preplanned. >> what do you -- we talked a little bit about how three

weeks -- less than three weeks from the election here. it's on the list but it's not top of mind. do you think it should be? >> it should be. if you look to see the pundits in the polls -- i have no regard for these polls. but if you do look -- says who? says me. and by the way, i was right. so, going back to this, at the end of the day, what do you have? we have a real problem here. the american people are more concerned about the economy and finances and oil prices than they are about democracy. rest assured, if you don't have democracy, you don't have any of this. and they're trying to constantly put joe biden behind the 8 ball and say, woah, woah, you messed up the economy. did you see today $1.8 trillion taken off our deficit. by the way, folks, one of the things you have to understand, that's our kids' future. there's no way that they can pay this money back. but this guy's doing something right with $1.8 trillion.

personally what i'd like to see, open up the fracking. open up oil exploration. we have 360 billion barrels in this country, more than russia and saudi arabia combined. open it up. let's use that to pay off our deficit. but in the meantime, i think joe's doing an excellent job. there are things i don't like. but i think he's doing an excellent job based on the hand he was dealt. >> what do you think it is -- i've been having this conversation all week -- the notion that people wouldn't vote for democratic candidates because of the economy. the other choice is a lunging move toward autocracy. there are no thriving economies in autocracies. >> there are no thriving economies in the world. look what's going on in the uk. look what's going on everywhere around the world. things, especially because of covid, have changed. our world has changed. we need to take some time and figure out how to adapt, to be the strongest and the most vital country in the world. i've heard this line all my

life. if you have a strong america, you have a strong world. if you have a weak america, you have a weak world. trump made america weak, and the world became weak. and now you have joe biden who -- what do you think, in a year he's going to be able to turn around and fix it? no. it takes time. you break something, takes time to fix it. >> do you think that trump took the iran and china documents? you know, there are two of the specific areas of foreign policies that he needles president joe biden about most frequently. do you think he took those on purpose and is leveraging -- >> everything donald does is on purpose. the way that he took the documents, the way that he had them brought to mar-a-lago, the way he hid them, the way he sued, he had to turn them over, he didn't turn them over, they find more documents whether it's financial or these documents. the scary part is we don't know what additional documents this man is hiding. on top of that, carolyn maloney, god bless her, our congresswoman here, what did she do? she sends a letter on behalf of

the house oversight committee to nara, to the national archives stating, i want you to send a letter to trump demanding, demanding, that he sign a document acknowledging he doesn't have anymore documents, he didn't show them or give them to anybody, there's no documents hidden anywhere under the penalty of perjury. so far, nara didn't do it. so, what does congresswoman maloney do? she sends one to donald. what does he do? put it off to the side with some of the bills he owes contractors. >> do you think she'll ever get her answer? >> no. no. he doesn't respect the process. this is the whole problem. this is a petulant child that you tell them don't stick your finger into the electric socket. no, i can do it. i can do whatever i want. and he'll stick his finger and he'll get shocked like what's going on now. subpoenas, lawsuits, et cetera. but at the end of the day it's not killing him. that's why i keep going back to the same thing. let's stop the nonsense.

let's go after the low hanging fruit. we already know he tax evaded. enough. why are we worried about this. don't worry about murder, extortion, as they did with capone, get him on tax evasion. let's put this menace behind bars. >> do you think that will ever happen? >> no, no. i don't think you can put a president behind bars because as i've said, he would sell america's secrets for a book of stamps or a tuna while inside. and that would make -- that would actually hurt our country. it would put us -- they would give him a very severe home confinement. >> do you think that appeasing him because -- i mean, i think the whole frame around law enforcement has been we can't do that or it'll make his people mad. what? they'll storm the u.s. capitol and five cops will die? it already happened. do you think the politics are working? >> no. clearly not. nothing is working because we're

slow walking these indictments. thank god for tish james. she's going to be the one that's going to set this thing in motion. she's going to put his company out of business. i'm not 100% certain, there's an issue of minz rhea, where he'll they stole it. i want my votes back. >> can't you show barr and rosen telling him that that's not true, that they ran those things down and they're not true. >> doesn't mean he didn't still think it and believe it. you know, let me give you an example on how stupid donald really is. if he would have shut his mouth, he would get away with so much more. but he can't help himself. on his truth social, now he r starts attacking e. jean carroll, even if he had the defense of executive privilege at the time he made those statements, now he doesn't. he doesn't understand that he's not the president of the united states. the fact that these dopes at mar-a-lago are sitting there and they're calling him mr.

president, mr. president -- donald, you are not the president of the united states. i want to look right into the camera and hope -- i know you're watching. you're not the president of the united states of america. joe biden is. >> what is -- what is trump? >> what is he? a twice-impeached ex president. >> who lost. >> who lost but cannot handle the fact he lost. >> do you think -- we talked about how he carried a box of tchotchkes around from trip to trip with himself -- maggie haberman has written about it. you believe it's worth peeking in his desk drawers at other residences for classified material. >> on august 21 i posted, okay, great, they found documents at mar-a-lago. rest assured the fbi needs to immediately -- immediately -- search all the locations that waldo has been at. no matter -- wherever he went. i don't care if it was bedminster. i don't care if it was trump

tower on fifth avenue. i don't care if it was d.c. when he had that meeting with the golf people. wherever he went -- and they know where he went because there's a log of that. you have to check wherever he was at including the kids' houses, don's house, ivanka and jared's, eric's house, all of them. you need to check because i guarantee there's more documents at those locations. that's what i believe. knowing the way he behaves, he's not going to put all his candy in one place. he needs to spread it out. >> what do you make of the fact that all the tools at our disposal don't work. what the 1/6 committee has done is remarkable because they dumped their evidence into the public. we've got all the evidence of what he knew and what he thought. he was told that he lost. he confesses in the colonnade to mark meadows and cassidy hutchinson, i don't want anyone to know we lost. well, you know, everybody in the world knows you lost because everyone tracks what happens in america, to your point. what do you think should happen

if none of the normal systems for accountability work? >> this is -- this is our fault. this is -- and i don't want to be as critical as i am of merrick garland, but enough is enough. what's going to happen now with the january 6 committee? and what a great historical document, like mueller, that they did -- what came out of the mueller report? a historical document, but no responsibility, no accountability by donald or anybody else. same thing will happen. >> and he calls zelenskyy the day he gets away with mueller. he has displayed a pattern of being emboldened. you know, what do you think he'll do next if he gets away with this? >> and he feels that he is. so, january 6, what are they going to do? you hear all the pundits go, there's two things. they're going to subpoena him. if he violates, they're going to send it to the doj or that they can actually issue -- stop. it's not happening. all right? they can send it to merrick garland, and like all the other stuff that's sitting now with merrick garland, it's just going

to sit there. >> why? >> i don't understand merrick garland. we need somebody in between merrick garland and bill barr, a guy who -- you know, he's another one who i absolutely despise with a passion. >> barr? >> barr. he should come clean and talk about all the things that donald told him to do, including what he did to me with the unconstitutional -- that's what he should do if he wants to be invited back into polite society. otherwise, disappear with donald. take him with you. at the end of the day, the same thing is going to happen with january 6. we need somebody in between. you can't be so methodical because our democracy is in peril. >> is burning. >> and the last page of my book, i say trumpism is fascism. and we need to eradicate this from our body politic. people don't understand just how fragile democracy is. and right now we're on a shoe string. that's why i implore everybody on my podcast, when i speak on shows, go on newspapers, get out

there and vote. and if you're going, make sure five of your friends are going. and especially the young gen zs. after roe versus wade. this is isn't funny anymore. this is our democracy. and the way we know democracy, come after november, there's a great chance that we may never see anything similar to what we grew up with. >> will you stay here? >> if donald or any of his acolytes become president, my first move was i was going to move to canada. i have family that lives there. my dad lives in toronto. all my cousins live there. my biggest fear -- i know this is going to sound crazy -- donald is a huge fan of putin. everything putin does, mohammad bin salman. he likes dictators. if in fact he follows suit where putin annexed ukraine, don't be shocked if trump decides he wants to annex -- or his trump 2.0 -- let's annex mexico or

canada. then i've got to run out of of canada too. how many times can i move? >> let me ask you one more question. mary comes with the election denialism of the national security crisis, i think you understand it to be as well. she said, if we go down this path and if the ability for state legislatures to have more power and trump state constitutions, if some of those legal tests go their way, we could be looking at a very dangerous moment where elections aren't what we think they are. where elections aren't choosing the real -- zbll if you go back to my earlier appearances, i tell you there was an adage that trump used to quote. it was vladimir putin -- or stalin i should say -- adage, which is, it doesn't matter who you vote for. all that matters is who's counting the vote. and that was a comment he used to say often. >> in '16?

>> i'm sorry? yeah, in 2016. you sit there and you scratch your head and you say, it's kind of not the way we do it. but it's just donald being donald. we have to stop this nonsense about donald just being donald. he is a clear and present danger to this country, to our democracy. and if we don't put a stop to it, like, now -- not tomorrow, i mean now -- we may never see democracy again. this could seriously be gilead. i know it's a great show and, you know, you think to yourself, this could never happen. i disagree. >> i mean, i've heard this recently from a very small number of people, very informed, that say we could look back in a couple years and you want to be able to answer the question, did you do everything you can? only a handful of people are going to be able to say you have. you have with your appearances and your book. >> i appreciate that, but if we're not successful -- >> doesn't matter, doesn't matter. >> -- it doesn't mean anything. >> exactly. i'm going to ask you to stick around. i'm going to add neal katyal to

our conversation. later in the hour, the current occupant of the white house, president joe biden, is on the campaign trail selling his economic achievements. white house chief of staff ron klain will be our guest to discuss the biden agenda and how they're selling it ahead of the midterms. senator raphael warnock is taking the gloves off in his race against herschel walker. ded line white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. where. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions,

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michael and i are still here. joining our conversation, neal katyal, former acting solicitor journal, and msnbc legal analyst. neal, weigh in on this. i think you may share some of the feeling that donald trump is destroying democracy faster than those who care about it can hold him accountable. where is merrick garland? >> yeah, so, where to begin? part of garland's problem is that trump is such a rampant criminal in so many different spheres, in so many different places, that garland's got to kind of prioritize and figure out what goes when. so, obviously, like, january 6 is such a fundamental betrayal of everything that america is about, everything that led my parents to come here and countless others. but that's a harder and more complicated case than the classified information, the national security information, stolen documents investigation

from mar-a-lago. that is also really serious. it's not january 6, threat to democracy serious, but it's incredibly serious for national security professionals. if i did -- i used to have access to these kinds of documents. if i did even 1/1000 of what trump did, i would be jailed in a second. so, you've got, i think, that. then you've got other investigations michael mentioned, the new york civil investigation, your potential criminal exposure there. you have criminal exposure in georgia. and then you have also all the congressional investigations. i mean, it's a hot mess, as is everything that donald trump touches. so, here's where i think garland is, nicolle. i think that garland is the guy who really doesn't want to do this, who doesn't want to bring criminal prosecutions against a former president of the united states. but i think he feels -- my gut is he feels he has to. just to take the classified information thing for one thing,

these are really serious crimes with lots and lots of jail time. how, if you run the justice department, do you look at the dozens and dozens of people you lock up every day for minor crimes and say, oh, yeah, you're going to jail, six months, a year, five years, ten years. but this guy, who did something far more serious, no. how do you look at the intelligence community professionals who have literally given their lives for some of this information and say, oh, don't worry, you know, next time we'll do better? how do you reassure our spies in the field, some of whom undoubtedly are working for foreign governments who right now are afraid oh, my intel reports are just left somehow at mar-a-lago, a place every foreign spies agency is trying to penetrate. and that's not even january 6th. so, i think garland starts there. i think he starts with an indictment in washington, d.c.

and then -- about mar-a-lago. and then i think we'll get a pretty easy conviction. michael pointed to the menz ray criminal intent issues. at least it's an issue with the classified information stuff. everything so far he said has fallen apart. >> neal, that is, at some levels, reassuring. at others -- i take your point that merrick garland never wanted to do this. i feel we know so much about how badly merrick garland doesn't want to do this. and it doesn't do anything for him with the 40% of americans for whom he would benefit with that knowledge. and i think what other people feel is that we may be two years away from too late, that we are going to have more election deniers in secretary of state posts, in attorney general posts, potentially even in more senior posts, maybe even a governor in arizona than we did two years ago.

he almost pulled it off two years ago. i'm not saying it should fall to the department of justice to be the only check on a criminal ex-president, but he's all we have, with one of the two parties having broken bad. and the evidence of obstructing the criminal investigation to the documents is so brazenly publicized, why not start by charging that? >> yeah, absolutely. and i think -- you know, i'm someone who does think that garland will do that, and he'll do it soon after the election. again, he doesn't want to, but i don't think he's got a choice. >> why? >> there's not a way to look the other way. >> but why? >> hang on, neal. let me let michael get in here. >> i'm so sorry, neal. this reminds me of our podcast together. but why? why wait until after the elections? he committed the crime. we know it. and every day that he's running free, he is, again, a clear and present danger to our country. i don't want to hear this nonsense from merrick garland,

oh, i don't want to be accused of messing up the midterm elections one way or another. >> michael, we could have some theoretical debate about what would have been right a month ago, two months ago. we're at october 20th now. the election is soon. i think even someone like me who very much thinks trump needs to be prosecuted, i don't see any reason not to wait until after the election since it's so close. criticize him all you want for not doing it earlier in the summer. i think if it were you or me who took any of these documents, we would be indicted at this point and already in trial. >> neal, one of the reasons i say they need to do this now is because the whole world knows that he has these documents. and we know that the only thing donald cares about is money. so, you don't even need to send a spy to mar-a-lago. all you need to do is get a message to him, hey, i'll pay you a billion dollars in a swiss bank account if you give us nuclear information on iran or

on china or whatever else you have hidden stashed somewhere. we'll pay you for it. i mean, that's the problem. every day that he is free, he's running rampant and he's a danger to our democracy. >> i hear you, michael. and i'm definitely not going to defend donald trump on this. i agree with you about the motivations and so on. but i do think law enforcement has any number of means available to it to make sure that trump right now isn't an active threat. so, i don't worry about the harm now. i do worry about what he has done and what he will do in the future. but in terms of the selling of these secrets right now, that's something at least that doesn't concern me. >> neal, let me ask you about the other huge headline today, a subpoena invoking the history of ex-presidents testifying before congress. michael is a firm no, donald trump will not show up. i think the showman in him and the old tired lounge act that's desperate for a new crowd, a new audience, may be tempted to

comply. i know -- i remember from covering the mueller investigation, his lawyers will never let him sit before a body knowing he'll purger himself. what do you make of the committee subpoenaing donald trump and the specific list of documents they also subpoenaed? >> trump is not going to listen to his lawyers. that doesn't surprise me. you know, yes, he's a showman, so he'll do all sort of stuff on fox or with his truth social screens. but i see no chance he's going to testify because as much as he's a showman, he also knows what perjury is and testifying under oath. we're talking about a guy who took the fifth amendment more than 400 times in the new york investigation. so, do we think now he's suddenly going to go ahead and testify? i really doubt it. so, congress would be forced to basically compel his testimony. that's what's happened in four other cases, including steve bannon, who, as you noted, nicolle, was prosecuted and sentenced today for doing this,

not for denying a congressional subpoena. the house has once subpoenaed a former president, former president truman. he refused. and ultimately congress didn't seek to enforce the subpoena. so, they do have some precedent for at least the action today. but to actually take the next step of compelling the subpoena and asking the justice department to prosecute hasn't been done before. but that should be no variant at all because what donald trump did as president to this country on january 6th has never been done before either. >> and i know as a student of your musings and writings, you would argue that he has no idea that the history -- he just doesn't care about anybody that might actually threaten him or hold him accountable. >> truman who? right? truman capote? he has no idea what he's talking about. he's not someone who has any, any, knowledge of history. >> history. >> but more than that, he

doesn't care about the history. he doesn't care. if every other president complied, i'm not complying. i don't have to. that's just who he is. he is -- he's a contrarian to everything. but one thing he is is he's a survivor. this son of a gun is surviving all of this. and that's why -- you know, neal, when we had spoken in the past, i said, why are we wasting our time, january 6th and this and that? go after the low hanging fruit. that's what prosecutors do. and that's what the d.a. here in new york had. the d.a. had that case with taxes, but alvin bragg just let it go. >> do you think we'll ever understand why? >> ask him. get him on the show. >> we're trying. michael cohen, neal katyal, thank you for being part of the conversation. on the other side, white house chief of staff ron klain is our guest. ♪ what will you do? ♪

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the kind of policies that have failed the country before and will fail it again. it will mean more wealth to the very wealthy, higher inflation for the middle class. that's the choice we're facing. that's why i think we're going to do just fine. >> that's president joe biden earlier today sounding cautiously optimistic about the democratic candidates' chances in the midterm elections just 18 days away now. the president spoke today drawing stark contrast between his policy and agenda and those of republicans. as the country prepares to head to the polls, his plans to cancel up to $20,000 in student debt and the news that the government's deficit had fallen $1.4 trillion since last year with his administration saying it is the largest one-year drop in american history, something michael cohen gave him a ton of credit for in the last segment. joining us now, white house chief of staff ron klain.

politics makes strange bedfellows. i think we know that to be true because we are old. to hear michael cohen making an aggressive, forceful, offensive message about the president just drives home this big issue was the theme of president biden's inaugural address, and that is the dangers to democracy. how do you find success tying democracy to the opportunities in an economy? we've been talking all week about the fact that autocracies don't boast particularly healthy or flourishing economies. does the president think democratic candidates are making that argument forcefully enough on the trail? >> the president taught me a long time ago when i went to work for him that you can't judge someone else's campaign. you run your own campaign. i think the candidates are making effective arguments that work in their states. to your broader point, nicolle, what we are seeing is struggle between autocracies and democracies around the world. while we are facing our own

economic challenges here at home, it's nothing like the autocracies are going through. you see the essential collapse of the economy in russia. you see china heading towards its worst growth numbers in decades. you know, what is absolutely clear time and again is that free market economies, free market economies, particularly those that have strong social safety nets, invest in people, invest in bringing jobs here. those economies are going to own the future of these autocratic economies. the command and control economies, that is not going to work. >> it took us five minutes to find the trumpy, right wing economic types of fox business and other economic channels, ga fauing world war joy and glee about how liz truss' economic policies were coming to america. they used the word, the cavalry is coming in the midterms if we win. the republicans are out in the open about wanting the very same things that imploded liz truss'

prime minister term in i think they're calling it three and a half scaramuccis. would the president like to see an argument that is more forceful? this is what they want to do. and it would do grave harm to our economy. >> well, you showed part of the president's remarks today. grateful for that. a part you didn't show is where the president made a version of this argument that he made clear that republicans in congress have said if they have the votes next year, the first thing they're going to do is repeal the inflation reduction act. that means they're going to repeal the tax put in place on big corporations that for the first time in history makes them pay 15%, pay actually a low tax bracket. but we're not going to let those 55 big corporations pay no taxes at all in their $40 billion in profit. and they repeal the effort we have to increase the enforcement of the tax laws on the wealthy to actually make them pay what they owe.

so, that's the republican plan. it is similar to plans -- the president, as you showed it, he called it mega maga trickle down. he said they want to double down on the trump tax cuts. there's no question what will happen in the congress if they prevail, which is tax breaks for the wealthy, tax breaks for big corporations, the tax burden falling on the middle class, and the deficit exploding. we've done so much work to bring the deficit down and under control. the deficit we inherited from president trump. huge tax cuts for the rich, huge tax cuts for big corporations. if that's what republicans do, it will explode that deficit. it will put us in a bad fiscal situation. >> i want to show you something the president said that caught our attention. this is about the republicans. let me play it. we'll talk about it on the other side. >> okay. >> marjorie taylor greene. she and her husband got $180,000

in business loans forgiven from the ppp program. she said it's completely unfair for us to forgive student loans for working and middle class americans. republican governors wrote me a letter saying, this relief only helps the elite few. do y'all know you're the elite few? i knew you were really special, but i didn't know you're the elite few. i'm serious. ted cruz, great senator from texas, he said, it's for slackers -- quote, slackers who don't deserve relief. who in the hell do they think they are? >> i think your coalition, your supporters love this side of the president, just calling what bill barr would call bs on the republican hypocrisy. are these the kind of arguments he plans to make in the sustained manner over the next three weeks? >> it's part of the argument, no question, nicolle. you heard him yesterday in

pennsylvania call out the republicans who voted against a bipartisan infrastructure bill, called it socialism, and then applied for money for their states, saying it would lead to economic development and good jobs. and you heard him today, again, emphasizing these republicans who -- some of whom have gone to court to try to stop the president's plan to give debt relief, $10,000 in debt relief, to people who are struggling to pay back their student loans. and 70% of them are people who make less than $70,000 a year. these are working class, middle class people, who are trying to get out from under their debt, people who work hard, that ted cruz called slackers. and people attacking that kind of debt relief, as the president said today, people who got large business loans forgiven in the trump administration without blinking, without thinking. and now they're coming down after students were trying to get a little bit of debt relief to get out from under that burden. >> we've talked on and off tv

about just how dominant the trump story remains at this point because of his long trail of wreckage, of the criminal behavior he engaged in after he left, taking classified documents with him to mar-a-lago and then lying about their return. because of his attempted coup plot and all the evidence that emerges. what do you want in front of voters every day for the next three weeks? >> well, again, i'm covered by the hatch act. i have to be a little careful about what i say about voters. but what i think what the american people should be thinking about is the difference between the two paths that are before them. president biden has come to the white house. he has gotten our country back open again, schools open, businesses open, 10 million jobs. he's passed bipartisan legislation that has only been talked about before. infrastructure is not a joke anymore. it's an actual reality. he stood up for democracy and for fair counting of votes.

he's talked about student debt relief, and he's defending freedom in ukraine from russian aggression. and on the other hand we have republicans in congress who are talking about cutting off funds to ukraine. they're talking about threatening to put the country into default if the president doesn't agree to cut social security and medicare. they're talking about undoing the inflation reduction act. so, that -- that choice, that difference, i think that's something the american people should see very clearly, and, you know, make their choice about which path is the better path for this country. >> ron klain, thank you for taking a path that brought you to our air waves. it's great to see you, my friend. >> thanks for having me, nicolle. tonight our colleague has an exclusive interview with president joe biden. you can watch that at 7:00 p.m. eastern on t reed out.

our political panel weighs in. and we'll check in on a key senate race where the democratic candidate is getting tough for real. we'll be right back after a quick break. real we'll be right back after a quick break. president biden has now signed the inflation reduction act into law. ok, so what exactly does it mean for you? out of pocket costs for drugs will be capped. for seniors, insulin will be just $35. families will save $2,400 on health care premiums. energy costs, down an average of $1,800 a year for families. and it's paid for by making the biggest corporations pay what they owe. president biden's bill doesn't fix everything, but it will save your family money. ♪ ♪ ♪♪

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>> she supported her claims with a $575 receipt from the abortion clinic. >> his own son saying walker is lying. >> is that your signature? >> yes. >> that's a new ad from senator reverend warnock calling out the hypocrisy of his opponent in the georgia senate race. herschel walker, going in the offense with the midterms less than three weeks away. let's bring in basil michael, director of policy program at hunter college. as well as the former spokesperson for the house oversight committee but that's a longer story. take me inside senator warnock's candidacy. he's been a superb senator. he's avoided some of these contrasts with herschel walker but it is included in his closing message to georgia voters. >> well, i think that's exactly right. this is his closing message to

the voter, and you know, there's some consternation among some democrats that believe that the conversation around reproductive rights and abortion sort of extended too long into the cycle and we should have done that thing that was purged from our political lexicon in 2016. that word pivot. even if we don't say it, it's still a function that's important. and it's still an important part of, i think, the democratic message largely. you know and for rafael warnock, what he's doing is saying, look, whatever it is that is on top of your agenda, whether it's inflation, we can talk about that. if it's about crime, he and val demings and eric adams who won in new york, we can talk about that. but if it's about who is going to keep the rights you have and restore that which was lost, then you need to vote for the democratic party, and that ad in his messaging is reminding voters of that.

>> the ad, too, curt is so much bigger than abortion. of course it's that central issue, and it's very important to a lot of voters including republican voters. but it's about a political party that's broken so bad that's so corrupt, that what they can do for themselves and their own family and their own relationships, they would make illegal and criminal for everybody else. >> i think that's the legacy of this entire era of modern trumpism. do as i say, not as i do. they want to talk about family values and being pro life and the sanctity of life yet when one of their own is engaged in multiple abortions, they're fine with it, they're out campaigning for him. someone said, as long as he votes republican, what does it matter. this is a party that stands for nothing except trying to open power and weaponizing the power to control other people. the irony is we're going to take rights away from women, the instrument of big government which republicans used to spend

a lot of time decrying about. they're going to use people to tell what they can and can't do. the contrast is clear and the hypocrisy is off the charts. >> you heard basil claim and the president and democrats really sharpening the economic message with liz truss's collapse, the policies republicans are running on and have already promised to usher in. they seem to have wind at their backs. how are you feeling about the democratic messaging in the final weeks. >> i have said this before, and it was just said, i've said that the republican opponents are the vehicles, vessels for an extreme sort of ideology and democrats have a lot to talk about and there are some that wish we had started talking about it a little earlier. there is a lot that democrats can talk about, the fact even that, you know, we talked about threats to democracy, and it became a polling point in the summer and in the fall. that means that democrats have done their job, and as i said, we have a couple of cycles of

winning in the suburbs. we know how to talk about economic issues. there's a lot in our quiver, and we just need to make that strong closing argument and remind voters that, you know, if you vote for democrats, you're going to get a lot of the same kind of smart policy making that got us out of the pandemic and is charting an economic future. >> you get the last word. >> one of the questions you asked ron at the end was what do you want the closing argument to be. the argument is this, if you want to mortgage the future of your children and grandchildren, the financial security so millionaires and billionaires can get tax breaks, vote for republican in november. otherwise democrats are the ones who have funded infrastructure, health care, passed gun reform. democrats are the ones getting things done for real americans. republicans have no interest in that. >> the only ones interested in making sure we continue to live in a democracy. >> that little thing too. my personal obsession.

basil and curt, thank you so much. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quick break for us we'll be right back. ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we are so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. >> i am ari melber, we're tracking breaking news. donald trump just hit with a subpoena, and we have it. so the nation is now seeing very literally the written road map according to the january 6th committee to donald trump's coup