an important update on a story we have been covering. president biden's student debt relief program that was set to begin this weekend has unfortunately had a roadblock. last night, a federal appeals court that has filed -- excuse me, that is filled with trump appointees temporarily halted biden's relief program, granting our quest by yes, a republican-led state from

taking effect. now, the news is a setback, there is no doubt about it. but the administration's not taking no for an answer. white house press secretary kareen jean pierre just hours after that ruling urged americans to continue submitting their applications to the government. students can still submit their applications, and yes, they can be provided -- does not prevent us from reviewing these outlook asians repairing them for application to loan servicers. so, take note, the relief program has been halted. but, and this is an important but, the administration is doing everything possible to be prepared to forgive loans if and when the temporary block is lifted. we are going to continue to follow that story. we'll bring you any updates on it as they develop. and coming up on the second hour of amen, the gop agenda, finally revealed. if republicans take control congress, their plans include hurting you and our allies. we are going to explain. plus, ron desantis losing in

court one of his voter fraud cases has already fallen apart. how much more embarrassment will he take? and classifying chaos, new details on the documents taken by the fbi from trump's home in florida. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. he ♪ ♪ ♪ all right, so the midterms are less than three weeks away, but who is counting, right? and look, we have to prepare you, republicans, yes, they could win the house. a new poll shows voters in battleground states prefer republican house candidates to democrats by six percentage points. now, we are not saying this to gin up fear, we're seeing this because it is important for us and you, the viewer, to understand what a republican-led house would look like. you would have minority leader kevin mccarthy, who's at the top of the list to become a speaker in a gop-controlled house, laying out his party's

first order of business should they win. any guesses on what that might be? perhaps a plan to address inflation that they are complaining about all the time, or maybe a policy to combat rising crime rates? no, neither one of those, mccarthy plans to repeal funding that was approved by democrats to increase the number of irs employees. republicans want to use their newfound power to push tens of thousands of americans into unemployment lines. also on the gop to do list, taking the debt ceiling hostage and using it as leverage to force spending cuts, putting programs like medicare and social security on the chopping block. another agenda item, taking state level crusades against the lgbtq community and taking that nationally. this week, a group of house republicans introduced a bill that makes florida's don't say gay legislation look quaint. they've dubbed the, quote, stop the centralization of children

active 2022. but we should call it what it really is, a man if you live attempt to parents education fears to target an already vulnerable group. and while the bill stands no chance of passing now who knows what could happen if kevin mccarthy and his acolytes become in control? the gop agenda also targets our allies abroad. this week, mccarthy suggested that he'd be wary of handing a, quote, blank check to ukraine as their war against russia continues. if funding to ukraine was cut or ended entirely, it would give authoritarianism a fighting chance in eastern europe. it's an agenda that has -- that is really all show and has no substance. here's our president biden, describing republicans in an exclusive interview with my colleague, jonathan capehart. >> they don't have a platform, other than tear down what i have been able to do, what we've been able to do. and i do not know what they are for. >> folks, let's be very clear about this. republicans actually do not

have plans to address our real concerns. there are two occupied trying to own the libs and create culture wars to win the midterms. but if the right takes the house in november, it will not be democrats who lose, it will be the american people. let's discuss this with my setter night panel, former maryland democratic congresswoman donna edwards, she msnbc collaborator. hayes brown works for msnbc daily, and jonathan alter is a presidential historian an msnbc contributor. it's great to have all three of you with us. jonathan, i'll start with you. it's common, you're the historian here, it's common for parties not in power to make an election a referendum of sorts on the party that is in power. but is the gop taking it to a whole new level with what we are seeing now? >> yeah, i mean, really it is not just a referendum, it is a choice, which direction do you want the united states to move

in? and the thing that is so striking is a lot of these parties try to kind of -- it out, the stakes, but they're very very clear in this case. are you for ukraine or for russia? if you are for ukraine, you should vote democratic. if you are for russia, they have a lot of russian sympathizers in the republican caucus, joe republican. do you believe in the right to choose? very clear, democratic, not republican. so we can go right down the list, and there's a clarity we have not seen before, which is why this should be a choice election. but having said that, some of the stakes are more threatening than others. so, i am actually not that worried about aid to ukraine, because it looks like there is going to be bipartisan support for packages as biggest 50 billion dollars in the lame duck session. i'm very worried about the debt

ceiling. now, that seems kind of wonky. but if the democrats don't address this in the lame duck session, they will be allowing republicans to literally play russian roulette with the full faith and credit of the united states, plunging the world into a huge depression if they don't address this in november or december. because then, in 23 or 24, the republicans will hold biden hostage with the stat ceiling. and it's going to be a huge crisis. without, me go back to 2011, everybody has forgotten about that, but they try to do it then. and actually, there was a downgrade in the credit of the united states. so, that's the most serious thing in front of us and the next couple of months. >> i'm glad you put the spotlight on that for us. hayes, i do want to ask you about what republicans have been zeroing in on throughout

this race, which is -- they've been doing it across the country, they are zeroing in on crime, blaming democrat's and their policies for rising crime rates. you know, this is despite the fact that a recent study found that republican states actually had higher murder rates than democratic ones. and 2020, per capita murder rates was 40% higher in states one by donald trump then those won by joe biden. does the gop has a like to stand here? put aside just the crime on a street level we are highlighting, look at all the criminals that were part of the trump administration that are being involved in -- steve bannon, roger stone, you know, the list goes on and on. >> yeah, but unfortunately for our democracy, it's very easy for the base of the republican party to say those were not criminals, they were patriots who are being targeted by the deep streak.

so, unfortunately that argument is not play out well when you're talking about that. with that sort of thing convince swing voters in the states? possibly, but that's not the message democrats are focusing on right now. right now, democrats are trying to say we are going to figure out inflation, we want to do better on the economy, we want to, especially, they're pushing especially hard on the right to choose aspect of this election. the fact -- joe biden pushing for an abortions right bill to be the first thing in the new congress, should democrats retain control, that's a huge shift compared to where things were even a couple of years ago on that issue. in fact, democrats are banking on that for the midterm, they need to move fast. republicans are focusing in on things that have more emotional appeal to them, have fear involved in the call to action from their base. immigration, crime, inflation, none of which they have actual plans to solve. they are just hoping that people will feel like, well,

gas prices are too high, air go i don't care about democracy. also, maybe there is an invasion on the southern border, that's what i hear, so sure, i'm going to vote republican. despite there being nothing in their plan for how they're actually going to address these issues beyond what is either already being done or what has already been tried many times over the last 30 years. >> dawna, we can point out the lack of substance that is coming out of the gop. but i do not want to underestimate the damage that they can do. we were highlighting some of the silly things they want to do. but if they take control of the house and the senate, they have free range on judicial nominees. . they can continue to wreak havoc on our courts. talk to me about the devastating impact the republican majority could have, even with joe biden still in the white house for two more years. >> well, i mean, keep in mind the republicans have been dangerous, especially in the

united states senate. and certainly in the house, even in the minority. so, imagine what they could do in the majority. i think what worries me the most is that in the house in particular, we have the prospect of dozens of dozens of members coming in who identify with the marjorie taylor greene wing of the republican party, which seems to be the center of it. they are going to push kevin mccarthy. they are going to continue with endless investigations of everything imaginable, possibly some impeachments of appointed members of the executive branch. they are going to use the debt ceiling, frankly, as republicans have use the debt ceiling for more than a decade as a cudgel on try to cut spending. but the reality is that this is

a very dangerous moment for americans. so, i hope that all of these swing voters, whether they're going to show up and vote on choice, or show up and vote on, you know, the things that democrats have done to try to rebuild an economy that was devastated through the pandemic, those are all good selling points for democrats. and of course, protecting democracy. i guess with so many elections that are gonna be decided by one or two percentage points, we are not looking to change the minds of the 30% who are in the crazy caucus. we're looking to make sure democrats will shore up the voices of that one or 2% at the polls. >> all right, panel, please stick around. we are just getting started. we've got a lot more to break down. up next, a major win in the fight to push back against ron desantis's voter intimidation tactics. but first, jessica layton is here with the headlines,. >> stories that we're watching

for you all this hour, russian installed authorities ordered evacuations of the occupied city of kherson on saturday as ukrainian forces wage that counter offensive in the region. the kremlin has been in control the southern city since the beginning of the onslaught and ukraine. and china, former chinese president hu jintao was being caught on camera being forcibly remove from the communist parties congress on saturday. he was seated next to a successor, current chinese leader xi jinping before this all happened. still unclear tonight what prompted his removal. and two workers are dead after a gunman opened fire at methodist dallas medical center today. police say responding officers shot the suspect and then took him into custody. so far, no word on a motive for that incident. i'm just gonna wait, and more eamonn, with ayman mohyeldin after the break. k. it's gentle on her skin and out-cleans our old free detergent.

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warrant. okay, listen, we got you caught off guard. i understand. you so you have a warrant for voter fraud. >> voter fraud? i voted but committed no voter fraud. >> well, that's the thing, i don't know exactly what happened with it but you do have a warrant and that's what it's for. >> i don't do nothing to nobody. voter fraud? what is voter fraud? >> voting when you're not supposed to, sir. >> why would y'all let me vote if i wasn't able to vote? >> i'm not sure, buddy. >> dude, these -- i've never seen discharge before in my entire life. >> that was police body cam footage first obtained by the tampa bay times showing the arrest of four audience who have been accused of voter fraud by rhonda scent this is election crime task force. the publicize arrest should be seen as voter intimidation tactic in the name of election integrity, because that is what they are. that the santas seem to be

counting on the arrest, which mostly target black and brown voters to discourage some democrats from voting in the coming elections. but there is good news on the front. a miami judge has dismissed one of these fraud prosecutions. state prosecutors indicted the man who is back saying that he registered and voted knowing that he was a notable. the man was ineligible, but he said that he did not of the. he registered in 2020 when he was approached by a campus or and sent a voter registration card by the state. my panel is back with me. donna, given how the miami judge ruled on one of the voter fraud cases this week, how do you think the rest of these cases will pan out? >> i think first of all, it's important for people to know that there were 19 of these charges brought out of 11 million votes that were cast. voter fraud is not an issue, and i think that when you look at these cases, many of these voters had felony convictions,

but they did not know that they were not eligible to vote. so, i think that even if they get to a point where they are herd on the merit, they will be tossed out as well, because there was no intent on the part of these voters and the state was complicit. the question that one gentleman asked, why is the state sending me a registration card if i am not eligible to vote? so, i think at the end of the day, these 19 out of 11 million voters, one, it's nonsense but they will be tossed out. it's an indication of how far governors like ron desantis and other election deniers are willing to go in order to prove a case that does not exist on voter fraud and also to interfere with the election by discouraging some voters from showing up at the polls. >> he's, we know that there is a long history of voter intimidation and oppression against black and brown communities in the country.

this goes as far back as the late 1800s, when poll taxes were implemented to keep people from voting. with this is to tell us about the policies that are being implemented today and his tactics under the guise of election integrity? >> i mean part of -- it is the fact that under surface, they seem to be race neutral. the idea that we are just protecting the integrity of the vote. first of all, props to them for the burning on the. the republican push that they are only looking out for the integrity of the vote, making sure that the vote is secure, when the opposite is actually true in so many other cases. brilliant on their part. in these cases, what is fascinating about this and horrifying is that many of these people, yes, they had felony convictions but by all rights, they should have been able to vote and would have been able to vote if it was not a florida voter republican legislator, undoing the will of the people, because for the

past a referendum that says you should at the serving your sentence have the right to vote restored to you. florida republicans took that away again, so i would not be surprised if we hear in court some point, some of these people having been told during that window when it was possible, yes, you're allowed to vote and no one told him otherwise when they changed. >> jonathan, we see calls from democrats about the importance of going out to vote in the midterm election, but it is a cornerstone of our democracy, but people are being traumatized from attempting to exercise the right to vote. people are probably going to look at this and say, i will not risk it because i don't know where i come down. should the democrats change their messaging based on the realities that communities are experiencing? should they be more aggressive in trying to help these communities? >> i think they definitely should be more aggressive in responding to this level of intimidation that we have not seen since the jim crow era when there were a lot of efforts to arrest african

americans trying to register to vote in the south. it was not until the passage of the voting rights act in 1965 that doing so, registering, became easier. now, the hope here is that in the face of the intimidation, so many people died for the right to vote that black people and others who are being targeted by this outrageous act of intimidation will get angry about it and say, you're not going to keep me from voting. i will risk possibly going to jail the way that my grandparents did in the civil rights era in order to vote if i'm eligible to do so. they will make sure that they're eligible to go out and vote in greater numbers. there is some history of a reaction against voter suppression. it happened in pennsylvania a couple cycles ago, ohio even

when it trended democratic -- the war efforts to commit to black voters, it backfired, so that's what we need to see happen this time, as well. >> don, there was a recent msnbc opinion piece by just the honda cars are way voters in florida who have been accused of voting more than once in the 2020 presidential election, which is a third degree felony, but in this case, police are not set to go after those white folks. witnesses say that the's attempt to send a message at the expense of black and brown people who are in his crosshairs. >> it used to be a special and our recent history that these things were done more subtly, and i think that there is no subtlety to what rhonda scent this is doing. he does not want black and brown voters to show up at the polls in florida because he knows when they do, the messages from democrats, democratic policies are more appealing to those voters, and

they will not vote for the rhonda sentences. there is no hiding and sugar coating what is happening here. it is a direct effort to intimidate black voters. i agree with jonathan, put it out there and that black and brown voters show up in droves. that's what they're doing for example in georgia, where in georgia, they were really aggressive at creating all these different rules, and it turns out the voters rebelled against the, and they voted in record numbers. i think that is a response for those of us who know that our parents and grandparents fought and died for these rights. we're not going to let people stand in the way of allowing us to exercise our franchise. >> panel, stick around for us, we have more to get to later on, the first the gop goes for a flat out racist appeal in the final weeks of the midterms. no surprise. s. no surprise. try zegerid otc. it contains the leading medicine

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a pretty rough summer. polling showed consistent losses after roe v. wade was overturned, and democrats in deep red areas of the u.s. started outperformed president biden's numbers from 2020. so, what have republicans been doing to turn back the tide? while, they have been resorting to racist appeals. a pro top group known as assistance for sanity just aired a blatantly racist anti-immigration address the mlb playoffs. that group has ties to stephen miller's america first legal foundation pack. miller, you might remember, is the bigot who spearheaded donald trump's anti-immigration policies. just this month, tommy tuberville, a senator, comparing the recipients of -- criminal, saying they're not owed reparations. and marjorie taylor greene, fan of great replacement theory, which says democrats are intentionally replacing

importing immigrants to tip the elections in their favor. greenland trying to outdo herself, tweeting a photo from a civil war memorial, seemingly praising a confederate monument. green's desire to troll democrats is so great, that she did not even realize that the memorial was actually a tribute to union soldiers. you know, the side who actually won the war to keep this country together. she later deleted the tweet. but all these examples just simply exist in the same playbook that republicans use when the chips are down. and the 1988 presidential election, george h. w. bush's campaign released the now infamous willie horton ad, which tried to paint his democratic opponent, michael dukakis, as soft on crime by stoking racial fears. in 2016, trump's -- ad undocumented immigrant who killed two people to the thousands of migrants fleeing violence in central america. that ad was pulled from outlets following massive backlash, yes,

including fox. so often conservatives resort to demonizing black and brown people to eke across the electoral finish line. but in the days of willie horton, at least the news media pushback. bush 41 might have still of won the election at least in part of that ad, but least the news media called it out for what it was, racist. nowadays, the news media often either glosses over these racist appeals -- check out this snazzy headline about marjorie taylor greene in the new york times. or the news media amplifies the racist appeals, working in tandem, with republicans. just this week, tucker carlson accused msnbc host a tiffany cross of inciting minorities into a race war against white people just because she spoke her mind. not to be outdone, clara logan pushed qanon conspiracies about a global cabal that wants to bring 100 million illegal immigrants to the u.s.. logan, believe it or not, was

banned from newsmax after that statement. yes, newsmax, a network steeped in promoting conspiracies banned logan for going too far. but the fact is, republicans go back to this playbook time and time again because it works. around the time the gop started pushing these racist appeals, this summer, a yougov poll found that 54% of self-identified strong republicans now think a civil war is likely in the next decade. so, how can we turn the tide back and remove these racist appeals from the electorate? steve phillips, who has studied the gop's history of embracing white supremacy is out with a new book, how we win the civil war: and he will help us to try to answer that question after the break. do not go anywhere. do not go anywhere shop area rugs up to 80% off. tv stands & storage up to 40%. and kitchen must-haves up to 50% off.

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all right, now we just, as you saw, laid out the case there that republicans are doubling down on the racism as the midterms draw nearer. and more alt-right figures are embracing white supremacism. so, the question now is what should the democrats be doing about it? all right, steve phillips, the founder and chairman of power packed plus is out with a new book entitled how to win the civil war: securing a multi racial democracy white supremacy for good. phillips takes democrats to task, arguing, quote, democrats remain reluctant to define and engage the actual fight we are

facing, a fight characterized by the battle for justice, equality, and inclusion by people of color and their allies, on the one hand, and by a violent, fear based white backlash on the other. steve phillips joins me now. steve, it's great to have you. fascinated by this conversation we are about to have. but you're right about how democrats are not taking this seriously enough, and how they allowed republicans to basically steam roll them in virginia last year with their fears of critical race theory and the panic there able to gin up. what other wake up calls to the democrats need at this point to get their act together? >> well, that's a good question, in that it has been such a long-standing tried and true element of the right wing and of the conservatives and the really, ideological heirs of the confederacy, who have really not stop fighting the battle to have this be a country forestry, white, christian men. so really, in my book, i talk

about maga being make america white again. so is so long-standing, right. you talked about the central american caravan issues back in 2018. on this exact date four years ago during the last midterms, trump was tweeting about the central american caravan. and that was on a monday. on the friday of that week, robert bowers and white man in pittsburgh, took his gun to the tree of life synagogue because he was alarmed about what trump was saying. and shot and killed many jews in that synagogue, one of the worst massacres on our soil. so, the long standing tradition, nixon engaged in this back in 68 when martin luther king was killed, running on a platform of law in order. by now, democrats should be able to understand and get it. what they do not understand as the country has changed. this is really all about trying to inflame and scare and galvanize white people. but the country in the 60s was

only 12% people of color. now it is 40%. now, they need to call these things out for what they are, summon whites to take a stand against this type of white fearmongering. and challenge people to rise to their highest and best selves to be able to fight to make this a multi racial democracy. >> yeah, and people, you know, in my opinion, falsely believe, they say america has a long tradition of being a democracy. and i push back on that sometimes, because i think america has not been a true democracy since everyone was allowed to vote. and that was not until the 60, women were allowed to vote obviously before that, but then black and brown people were allowed to vote. so we have not been a multi ethnic multi racial society and a democracy for that long, when you think about it. are you at all surprised, you know, the polls citing 54% are strong republicans believe a civil war is likely the next decade, because a kind of undercuts this notion that

we're a long country with a long tradition of stability? >> well, you're quite correct. we do not have democracy in this country until 1965, when lbj and the congress, after the civil rights movement, jimmy jackson, reverend, reed gave their lives to fight to actually get the voting rights act passed. until then, it was perfectly legal to exclude people of color from voting within this country, essentially. so, how is that a democracy? so, we've only been a democracy since 65. people have been trying to undermine the voting rights act ever since. so, you have this regard. but fundamentally, it's that we don't appreciate how close we came to having actual fascism in this country. look at the definition, when a dictator refuses to leave power, like on january 6th, 2021. so, we are on the precipice of this. so, this notion that we are far away from, this we have all these democratic traditions was teetering in the balance. the majority of republicans on january 6th voted to throw out

the election of this country. so, we are not far away from it at all. what i fundamentally try to highlight for people, to get the urgency of the situation, is that the confederates and their heirs have never stopped fighting. you had the segment earlier about defending the confederate monuments. the confederates were white nationalist mass murderers who wanted to buy and sell people of color. why do we have monuments to them in this country? why are there monuments to them in the united states capitol? so, this fundamental battle over this is primarily a white country, make america right again, or is it a multi racial country, raises to this day. reveling were not talked about how we'd be a january 5th country, where the successor tomorrow looser king is in the senate, or are we gonna be a january 6th country. and that remains the bow that we are engaging in this country. >> it's absolutely brilliant the way you frame it like that. i want to get your reaction to this. you have the new york attorney general, letitia james, and governor kathy hochul releasing

this report just this week saying that fringe online platforms played a role in radicalizing the buffalo shooter who shot up a supermarket earlier this year and that hate crime. your reaction to that? >> yeah, so, the whole first half of my book is how the confederates never stopped fighting, starting with assassinated linking five days after supposedly surrendering, and all the way up to january 6th. and i talk about how there is a consistent confederate battle plan with multiple dimensions to it. and one of the elements to it, in addition to distorting public opinion and never giving an inch, is silently sanctioning terrorism. and at every level, they have been silent sanctioning terrorism, sometimes not-so-silently as when donald trump told the proud boys stand back and stand by in a national presidential debate. he is now saying that at the top, that the two, four years ago, trump began the beating, fanning the flames that led to

the white domestic terrorism that took place at tree of life synagogue. so, it's a long-standing core part of their battle plan is to inflame those who are on the fringes and prone to violence. and it really is a challenge to who is everybody else going to stand up for that, and call it out? because one is called out, that's when you actually have the greatest impact around staffing it out. >> and yet, you have been trying to call it out. it's hard when you have the gop not letting up with their racist dog whistles and their attack ads. i mean, the bulwark recently reported they had wisconsin state republican parties sending out mailers that, mailers that dark in the skin color of mandela barnes, who is a black man running against a white man, ron johnson. is this another result of racism that is now being emboldened and embraced by the republican party? >> right, they are unrelenting. antonio delgado ran in new york in 2018, they were calling him

a los angeles rapper, right, trying to invoke all these different stereotypes. and you mentioned the virginia piece. this is what the democrats need to understand, is that the composition of the country has changed. these are all long-standing attempts to inflame the passions of white people to be able to support the republicans. but the white population is not as numerically dominant as it historically has been. this is far more multiracial country now. and there is a meaningful minority of whites who will stand up against it. and that's what they feel to do in virginia, is to respond to these crt attacks by saying that no, you are just trying to whitewash history and glorify white nationalism. instead, there is a very technical answer in trying to change the subject. they are clearly leaning into these race based attacks. and the best way to refute them, and there's a lot of research around that on this, how -- , who's a professor at princeton as study this, she studied the willie orton attack ads, and shows that the best way to beat it back as to call it out, make it explicit.

when you don't do that, that's when these attacks are more powerful. >> all right, steve phillips, fastening conversation, excellent work, the book is called how to win the civil war: securing a multi racial democracy and ending white supremacy for good. john knows this country needs it now more than ever. thank you so much for your time. up next, new details on those classified documents taken by the fbi from trump's home in florida. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ personalized plan for cash flow, even when you're not working. one that includes your 401(k) and all your other accounts. so you can make informed decisions that best fit your life ahead. a plan designed to help you make your money last so you can go from saving... to living. that's the planning effect. from fidelity. it's nice to unwind after a long week of telling people how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need!

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confirmed that some of the classified documents recovered by the fbi from trump's home included classified intelligence regarding iran and china. at least one of the documents describes iran's missile program, according to the washington post. even more concerning, sources told the post, that the information in those documents could expose u.s. intelligence gathering methods. it is what we have feared for months. trump might have put our national security at risk by holding on to these classified documents. so, could this be enough for the doj to charge trump with obstruction of justice? bloomberg reports that a group of justice department prosecutors believe so. but let me ask my panel, they are back with me. jonathan, your reaction to trump having classified intelligence on iran and china among the documents in his possession at mar-a-lago? >> you know, we think all the time that there's basically this story or that story that becomes a blurb. this is a huge story that goes

directly whether a jury might convict donald trump in the mar-a-lago documents case. the worry has been up now that if these were just kind of trophy documents, a love letter to the north korean dictator, or something else that he liked showing off, that a jury would say, okay, maybe he should not have had the documents. but, you know, it is not that big of a deal. but this is a big deal. these are crown jewels. they were linked to our two biggest adversaries, our three biggest adversaries, china and iran but. and they were allowed to be unsecured in a club that was crawling with spies. there were spies all over mar-a-lago. we only know about one russian one. but there were many others. this was criminal what he did. and i think it is now much easier to convince a jury of that.

and therefore, much more likely that in the next few months they will indict donald trump. >>, hayes, are you surprised that donald trump put prize you telling is gathering information like this? it's not the first time he'd, this is the first time in administration he met with the russians and apparently gave up some of the israeli intelligence capabilities in syria at the time, speaking to the russians. >> yeah, all the reporting, donald trump is not really gotten the need for security. they have never really figured out how important it is to actually keep these things to care. like, remember the time when he had tweeted out the picture of i, believe it was a missile on a north korean launchpad? are maybe an iranian launchpad? either way, he tweeted out a picture of it. it was classified. so, i'm not surprised that he has, like, a magpie just grab

things from the white house that he thought was interesting, with no regard for how important they are. as with everything trump related, the question is, how much does he actually realize what he is doing? did he just grabbed these things because he thought they made him look good? did he grab them for a future use case, where he would need to pull up these documents? or was he just a pack rat, and they actually got shuffled into his papers? i mean, like, the one thing keeping that last theory from being, you know, credible, is all the reporting that trump himself is the one who first hacked up these boxes that went to mar-a-lago. and then when the justice department is asking for all the, back it's been reporting that trump himself dug through the documents, all those files, to figure out what de commit was not, -- so, he is personal culpable for the fact that these documents were still at mar-a-lago. so, it would be hard to make

the case that he's describing thing and putting them in a box. >> donny, do you think trump should be charged with obstruction of justice based on what you have seen and read, if you did this as a former member of congress, wouldn't you have faced charges by now? >> while, i mean, absolutely. just the idea of the mishandling of classified information, i think, is first of all, very problematic. we still need to know why is it he had these documents. the fact is, that having remove them, period, is a violation of the presidential records act. so, i do not know if a conviction would ensue from that. but his obstruction of, you know, keeping, hiding, securing the documents is very problematic. and i think the president, the former president has to be held accountable. and in our system, accountability comes through the department of justice. >> jonathan, the washington post reports that in bob

woodward's new audiobook, comments that trump made to woodward showed that he knew the 27 letters exchanged between himself and the north korean leader, kim jong-un, were classified, but he took them to mar-a-lago anyway. does that not undercut trump's whole argument that all of the documents that he took here were classified? we have 45 seconds left. >> yeah, that undercuts his argument. and also, his response is so far -- he claimed publicly, not in court, that these documents were planted. you know, that gives you some indication about how weak his defense is. people say, well, maybe there will be a juror who will acquit trump. should they really take the risk? if they do not indict him, if they don't enforce the law, that undermines the rule of law. so, it's better to try and lose and not to try at all. and i think that will be merrick garland's judgment. so, i think we are going to see the former president in the dock defending in a criminal

case. >> jonathan, i could not agree with you more. it is more important to indict and let the jury make up its mind. jonathan alter, hayes, donna, thank you for joining us this evening and help us make sense of what's happening. and thank you at home for taking the time with us. come back tomorrow 90 am eastern on msnbc, ali speaking with utah senate candidate avid mcmullin on his independent bid to take down election denier and trump darling mike lee. and don't go anywhere, msnbc is airing a special edition out swagger tonight. she's speaking with daily show host trevor noah but his plans to leave the show later this year, and his role as executive producer on the new msnbc film documentary series the turning point. alex wagner tonight begins right now on msnbc. i'm ayman mohyeldin. i'm ayman mohyeldin. ♪ (customer) save yourself?! money with farmers.

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tonight. the one, the only trevor noah will be joining live on set in just a moment. that's great, i am glad that he's here tonight, because there's somethin