ut the sandwich, is it chuck? it's not. the new subway series. what's your pick? >> all right, thank you for

watching. i am sam stein. katie fang will be back next week, do not worry, 7 am eastern. all will show online. though she is starting right now. ng right now. >> and good morning to you from beautiful detroit, michigan. it is sunday, october the 23rd. i'm ali velshi, this is a very special edition of velshi across america. i am in belle isle state park in detroit, michigan, within 16 days until the most consequential midterm elections in recent memory. michigan is arguably the leading edge of a combustible trumpist, anti-democratic movement which includes fringe

political figures, self styled militias and the potential for violence. i saw that with a group of michigan residents and voters from across the political spectrum to talk about this, plus women's reproductive rights, which is actually, literally on the ballot in michigan this year. and how they should think we can move forward as a country, full of people with different views, and the same set of facts. more of that conversation coming up later on in the show. i want to speak about a darker aspect of contemporary politics we never let the less have to address, because in the recent years, this state has been the sight of high profile cases of political into the nation and violent. by the pandemic, back in spring, 2020, hundreds of people, some of whom were armed with rifles and other types of firearms, stormed the state capitol in lansing to protest governor gretchen whitmer's covid restrictions. two years ago this month, state and federal authorities arrested 13 men over here in michigan, in connection with a domestic terrorism plot to overthrow several state governments, according to the new york times. at least two of those men also took part in those earlier

covid protests at the state capital. federal authorities charged six of those men specifically for conspiring to kidnap governor gretchen whitmer. in the affidavit, authorities laid out, in detail, the great lengths to which the man went in plotting this scheme which involved conducting two surveillance trips of governor whitmer's vacation home in northern michigan, taking photos and videos while driving around to scope out the area. while discussing what they wanted to do to the governor during one of those surveillance trips, one of the men replied, quote, kidnapping, arson, jeff -- i don't care. that is according to the affidavit. in a separate exchange on an encrypted group chat one man wrote, quote, have one person go to house, knock on the door. when she opens, it just kept her. these men were said to be raising money, by the way, including four and 100,000 vote taser, as well as explosives. according to the affidavit, two of the men discussed detonating explosive devices to divert police from the area of the vacation home.

they stopped at the m 31 highway bridge on the way and inspected the other side of the bridge, for places to seat an explosive charge. now even in this era of divisive politics, the violent militant fantasies conjured up by these men are beyond the pale. but the legal outcome of this case has been a mixed bag for federal prosecutors. two of the men were acquitted of the charges, two others did plead guilty and, in august, a jury found the other two, mary croft junior and adam foxx, guilty of conspiring to kidnap governor whitmer. the seven other men who were arrested in connection to this plot remembers of, or associated with something called the wolverine watchmen. authorities described them as a self styled militia group. important to remember, militias are prohibited across this country. state authorities arrested them separately for a series of firearm and terror-related charges, stemming from the effort to target and harass law enforcement officers, and to

instigate a civil war, according to michigan's attorney general we spoke to yesterday, dana nessel. these plans were boarded, but details in this case offer a disturbing insight into the far-right extremist mindset. in hindsight it is easy to see these incidents in michigan as a prelude to the january 6th insurrection, far-right groups, taking over government spaces and making violent threats against elected officials. in 16 days, america will hold its first elections since that insurrection. early voting is already underway in several states, statistics show that the turnout is strong. over 800,000 votes have already been cast. in florida, georgia has broken its first day early voting record. according to the department of state in michigan, quote, absentee ballot numbers continue to grow with 1.7 million already sent to voters who requested them, and 432,960 returned as of last tuesday. but since the 2020 election, the integrity of our electoral system has been damaged by

baseless and debunked claims of voter fraud. not by voter fraud itself, of which there is virtually none, certainly none of any significance. but it is the claims that there is damage to our voting system, that has caused damage to our voting system. years ago, it castigated of suspicion on things like early voting, as voting gets underway this year. for more on this, i am now joined by barbara mcquade, the former united states attorney for the eastern district of michigan. you know her well, she's an msnbc legal analyst, and the co-host of the incredible podcast sisters in law. she has been with me in person in new york, but this is our first time together here in your home state of michigan. great to see you, barb. >> welcome to the wolverine state, glad to see you here. >> sorry about that introduction. i am from michigan, i am across the way over here in canada, it's a beautiful state, it has a lot to recommend it. but it has been a bit of a ground zero for some of this domestic, far-right extremism.

and in this moment, this is where we worry about an overlap between an attack on democracy that we have generally had, and then this militia, extremist, far-right activity in michigan. given your analysis of this. >> absolutely. i think the first thing we saw which was so concerning happened in the spring of 2020, when we had these armed protesters at the capitol, protesting the governors shut down orders during covid. it was really kind of an eerie pre sage to what we saw on january six. and of course this plot to kidnap the governor, deeply disturbing. we have on the ballot, at the top of the ticket this november, for governor, for secretary of state, for attorney general on the republican side, election deniers. people who have said joe biden did not legitimately win the election. that is deeply troubling, i think, to all of us. and the threats of violence, i think many people of lower level public office, who are the subject of the kinds of threats, it worries me.

i see good people afraid to run for office, who do not think it is worth it to put their family at risk to serve the public. >> when you say lower level, we have spoken to election workers in michigan. they testified about the threats they have gotten. now, the people who work in elections are like salt of the earth, democracy upholders, right? these are just regular people, generally not with a great deal of ideology that causes them to do that, except for the ideology that supports democracy. and they face threats? >> some of this violence, the threats are fueled by disinformation. people are fed all kinds of things about how elections are being stolen, so they get angry, they come in and take it out on people who they think are the footsoldiers of this fraud. and in fact as you said, they are people who are working for no pay, low pay, simply to administer elections. same with public health officials. i know people who work in the public health space, who have imposed masking rules, vaccination recommendations have become the subject of this

vitriol. so it is a very dangerous moment, it is i think, fed by people who prefer power over process, and i think that we have the power as a democracy to take that back. but education and information is really important to make sure people understand the facts, so that they are not swayed by those who want to use this information for their own political gains. >> in your career, you have prosecutor terrorism cases. but one thing i always like to remind people of someone like you, who knows the background of these things is that there are no militias in america. you cannot be a member of a militia, nor can you be empowered by someone in government to take matters into your own hand using arms. these are, they are gun clubs. there are people who run around, they imagine themselves to be protectors of something or other, but that is not legal in the united states. you can't take the law into your own hands? >> absolutely right. vigilante justice is not justice which is recognized under the law. so these troops form, as you say, they call themselves militias. the militia under the

constitution, it is not the national guard. it is part of the government itself. you cannot just be a bunch of guys with guns and say, now we are in charge here. that is a crime, that is what we saw in the case involving governor whitmer, and what is going on in the oath keepers trial right now. >> they say they were ready to stand by, to be called upon by the president to help? that is not a thing. >> no. in fact the constitution talks about the obligation of the government to repel insurrections, and rebellion. and that is what that is. that's why it is a crime, the charge the oath keepers have is called seditious conspiracy, using force to oppose the authorities of the united states. that is a crime. in fact, it would be nice to see more rigorous prosecution of these militia groups, but it is tricky because number one, our second amendment right to bear arms and our first amendment right of assembly, to gather in groups and have a gun club. it is when it crosses over from organizing, and recreation activities with guns, to plotting to attack our government, that it becomes a

crime. and that is where we see the whitmer plot, and the seditious conspiracy of the oath keepers. >> let the underwear bomber, something that did not manifest, but was here in detroit, had this gone through, had any of these players been any more successful than the actually were, can you imagine in the united states, the kidnapping of a governor by a self styled militia group? i think it becomes hazy with distance, but this was actually a very serious matter? >> and also ali, it becomes hazy when a plot fails. i think people remember, think about 9/11. we have an anniversary every year for the lives that were lost, because it was such a somber and horrific event. but we tend to fade, the memories tend to fade from things like the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber because they were not successful. >> only by some dumb luck, where they not successful. same with this militia group and the plot to kidnap governor whitmer. one man called police, because he was so horrified by what he had heard being plotted. if you are not part of that

group, perhaps they would've been successful. and i have to tell you, it would've been a terrible thing, not only for our governor and state, but for our democracy. >> for america, to let that happen? >> we need to pay attention to the plot to come close. >> barbara, so great to see you. you've always been a great friend to me in the show, and help us understand things, to be here with you in michigan is extra special. >> we are so glad to have you here! >> thank you, my friend. barbara mcquade, former united states attorney in michigan, and an nsc and bc legal analyst. as you know, i'm in michigan for special value across america, focusing on the threat to democracy. coming up at the top of the hour, we have brand-new nbc polling on just how serious an issue that is to american voters. and of course i am in motor city, so we are talking manufacturing, jobs. i am joined by another great friend of our show, the congressman debbie dingell, coming up after the break. plus my favorite part is talking to people, heart and soul of michigan. i spoke to a group of six michigan voters who, are the issues that are most important to them, including a crucial vote on abortion rights that is on the ballot. my new friends, also had some

tips for these upcoming elections. listen to this. >> there is nothing more important that we could do then to vote on election day. think with your head and with your heart. lead with love and each one, teach one, each one, reach one. and we all can get through this together, so vote like your life depends on it. depends on it covid-19 moves fast, and now you can too by asking your healthcare provider if an oral treatment is right for you. oral treatments can be taken at home and must be taken within 5 days from when symptoms first appear. if you have symptoms of covid-19, even if they are mild, don't wait, get tested quickly. if you test positive and are at high risk of severe disease, act fast. ask if an oral treatment is right for you. covid-19 moves fast, and now you can too.

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dingell who represents the 12th district of michigan, the 12th district covers parts of ann arbor, and dearborn and wayne county. it's just west of detroit, still north of canada. she is on the ballot, running for the newly drawn sixth district of michigan. it is now ann arbor center. michigan lost a congressional seat after the 2020 census was tallied. congresswoman, good to see you. thank you for being with us. we appreciate as always, you joining us on the show. look, we are 16 days away from an election that is very different from a typical midterm election. you have no senators up for election, but your three main state officeholders are up for election against election deniers. a number of you in congress are standing up for election against election deniers.

you know, congress, this is the kind of state where something will happen. we know one of the two parties we told seven seats in michigan, seven congressional seats, someone will lose a seat because of redistricting. tell me what you are thinking right now? >> so i don't think the election is broken yet. this time, in 2:16, i don't with donald trump win michigan, most of you did not believe me. i think that the two issues which are driving and help people feel, one's choice which, we are talking a lot about. clearly, it is almost a generational anger for women, young women cannot believe it is even there. but there is no question that economy, inflation, grocery store and gas prices are also impacting people. it's tighter than people think it is in michigan, i will say that none of these double digit polls are accurate. so anybody listening, you think your vote does not matter? every vote matters. and i think it will break in the next couple of weeks. >> things are getting tighter. let's look at the election issue, you discuss at some length yesterday with brenda

lawrence. and that's a number of people, republicans in particular are arguing people need to go out and vote against the biden administration, and the democrats because they are causing inflation. in america, inflation does not break the top ten in the hundred economies of the world which are all suffering from inflation. it is not higher than the eu, the uk, it is not higher than the neverland's. but somehow, republicans have had some success in getting this pen done at democrats. how do you respond to that? >> i will be blunt. i will start with the most recent building inflation act, republicans have no kind of planet, nor do they talk about anything. we kept insulin at the cost of $35 per month. republicans voted against a strict out of the bill, a proposal that would've kept insulin at $35, so people with private insurance plans, they kept the amount of money people would have to pay for their insurance, their prescriptions at $2,000. and we were going to negotiate the drug prices. but also, we were trying to

address the supply chain. we have a republican chair of the senate campaign committee, which wants to privatize medicare and social security, or eliminate them. social security and medicare are so critical to our seniors, you have to give them facts, but you must push back. you know, i am not someone who likes to be mean, per se, but i am not afraid to make the contrast, we have to make that contrast right now. >> the shadow of donald trump's long in this state. there are a number of candidates who are largely running because they get his endorsement, and the way to get that endorsement is to deny the last election. you know donald trump. your ex husband, who was in congress before you for a long time, whom i knew as well, new donald trump. you did not dislike the guy. i'm sorry, you're late husband, obviously. you did not agree with him, but you did not know it was this guy. in fact, in a new book by maggie haberman, apparently he called you after your husband passed pretended to be a reporter?

>> well, i predict that he would win, and i think elected me because of that. and you know, i believe that who ever is an office is the president, we have to work together. and so for the first couple of years, you know, we would talk, and we as democrats did a lot of the same jobs leading up to 2016. but remember, i voted for impeachment, and that is what he turned to me, he came to the state and was horrific. and i entered the donald trump hate tunnel. it was after that speech where he said some horrific things, a lot of people like mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy, lindsey graham said he should apologize. the day after, i did not want an apology. what i want is all of us to think about civility, treating each other with respect and dignity. i got a phone call from somebody saying that we are so and so from the washington post. i did not know the name, and then a lot of people at the post. he said he had worked with john in the old days. he wanted to see how i was, and

did i want an apology? the more that he talked, i don't. i mean, it sounded like donald trump, i was very honest with him, i did not want the apology but, i called a couple of friends at the post inside, have you ever heard of this guy? and nobody had heard of him, we never saw anything reported. >> you talk about trade, about a piece of legislation that has happened, the chips act. this picture right here behind me, this is possibly one of the best pictures of trade in america, right? you have the choice, the general motors headquarters on the right, fort headquarters of course, in a region you represent, you have the ambassador bridge, you can see trucks going across it, one of the most, the busiest border crossing on the continent. a ship coming in towards us underneath the ambassador bridge, and to the left, you have windsor, ontario. this is sort of where free trade was born. >> yes. >> your unemployment rate in michigan is higher than the national average. people your care about trade. they care about wages. they care about car prices

which are higher than they have been in a long time because of the shortage of semi-conductors. all of the issues we are talking about around inflation and the economy happen over here? >> here is what i will tell you, ali. we ship our jobs overseas. people do not understand the impact. you what helped people understand what had happened to us? the pandemic when we could not get masks, or a lot of supplies we needed. during those days, i was calling people i knew in china to inspect the equipment before the hospitals over here we're paying money. and people suddenly realized how dependent we were on china for medicine. then the semiconductor crisis. and yet now as we talk about global warming, the climate, we are moving to electric vehicles? 80% of the minerals are made in china. we have to bring those jobs back home. that is what we are trying to do. it took too long to get semiconductor chips through. we've got them through, we will bring the production back, create jobs here. we have to do that. it is not only an economic security issue, it is a national security issue. we cannot be dependent on other

countries like that. yes, the workers are feeling it. i will tell you something, i am always blunt. i was in a uaw hall last week. i said to everybody, i will talk about it when i am on a cable show. and the anger that i heard in 2016, they are tired of all of this fighting, you know? and they are worried, they yelled about everything. they yelled about the irs agents, they yelled about the gasoline prices. they yelled about a whole lot of other stuff. and i talked back to them, but we have to talk to people. because working men and women, there are now a lot of women upset on the other issue. i will not -- it's not -- but i am listening to those who are worried, and they are worried. >> there is real tension between democracy and, if abortion is your biggest issue, or if inflation is your biggest issue, these are real. they came out in the conversations i had when i was in dearborn on friday with a number of michiganders. thank you so much for being here. thank you for always being here for all of us, even when you are physically present, we are not together in michigan, great. >> great to have you here, come. back >> i will.

the democratic representative, debbie dingell of michigan. coming up, michiganders will have a chance to add an amendment to the state constitution. we just talked about this, it will explicitly it protects and guarantee abortion rights in the state. i visited the beautiful henry ford museum of american innovation in dearborn this week, where i spoke to voters about these crucial midterm elections, and how to find common ground in these times. >> seek out those who disagree with you, and listening to what they have to say. challenge your own thoughts and be willing to change your opinions and thoughts about things that you thought you knew everything about. do not stand in an echo chamber. broaden your horizons. that is how the marketplace of ideas works. we listen, we refined, we recalibrate. at the end of the day, we are all going through this together. it is called, life. , life

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what could be the most consequential set of midterm elections in modern history. i am here on belle isle, in detroit, michigan, where stakes could not be higher. all three of the states top leaders, the governor, attorney general and secretary of state are locked in reelection battles against opponents 11 braced the big lie in some shape or form, and there are a slew of other election deniers up and down the ballot, and just about two weeks, abortion rights will literally be on everybody's ballot, in michigan. to a vote on [inaudible] to reproductive freedom. the proposal would [inaudible] two there [inaudible] that would explicitly protect, and guarantee abortion rights in the state of michigan. earlier, at the henry fork museum of american innovation in the city of dearborn, right outside of detroit, i was joined by six people from across the political spectrum

who are wholly steeped in michigan politics. it was a worthwhile and important conversation which i started by asking which issues were top of mind. >> this year, i think it is abortion. i really, i know we will probably talk about that so much more. but i can't think of a single issue that even if people disagree on it they are unified in the idea and we all care about it. and abortion did not used to be one of the issues where you would see people coming up with midterm ballots, with that on their minds. but obviously, we know with prop three and the general nationwide dialogue around abortion right now, especially in an area i cover, i talk to paul shoots, and talk to young people. it's the single biggest issue for them i would say, this year, abortion. >> there are some things i have to ask you what she said. i'll be remiss if i did not add a few things. which are important. economic equity, livable wage,,

homelessness of the veterans in particular, health care. just having equity for all people, those are critical things, and support for parents. we have not talked about it, but the great resignation of teachers, support and resources for our teachers. >> i think the biggest issue in michigan is abortion. i am hearing that from as i said other parents, from the woman i work with through my profession, and families in general, people just want to know they have reproductive rights, that they have access to health care when they need it. not just abortion, but lots of other services which aren't related, that is what people are concerned about. i am even hearing people say things like they are worried, if they have fertility issues, that might be affected as well. i mean, that affects a lot of

people in our state. so i just want to know that they can have access to the reproductive care that they need, when they need it. >> wayne, what is the most motivating thing to you in this election? >> economic stability and education, to be honest, what i'm dealing with a lot of different community groups and folks, that's what is most important right now. can i get a job, can i pay for my homes, pay my rent? you know, i'm not picking on anybody on this abortion issue, that is a luxury for some people, for that to be their number one concern. that is truly a luxury. because people, by wintertime, can they pay their bills? the rising cost of gas, and now heating bills will be coming. do i have a solid economic base, to provide for my family and my kids? and is governor whitmer giving them the best opportunity in michigan? i think again, for suburban moms, for folks outside of the inner cities, that might be the biggest issue. but for the inner cities, it is about jobs. and i provide for my family, can i provide, to make sure my

kids get a proper education? >> i think that reproductive freedom, like abortion is one part of that, as both an economic issue and a rights issue. so it is both. if you are being forced to have a baby that you did not expect to have, because you were raped, that is an economic issue for. you it could change the rest of your life. when we look at economic rights, we do need to look at the ability to make your own decision for your body. i know that personally, i struggled with fertility. so it was a struggle and it was something that took a lot, it was my family coming together and making decisions together about how we were going to try to grow our family. and in the end, fertility treatments helped me to conceive my twins. but that should be up to a family to make when it is time to do that or not time to do that. that should not be in the hands of politicians. >> the most motivating factor for me, as a grandfather of three, with another one on the

way, it's the future of our democracy. i want to make sure that this country is moving forward in a matter that not only will i be proud of it, the country i am handing my children and grandchildren to, but that they will have the same opportunities i did. that goes to their rights, that goes to education. that does go to jobs as well. >> i want to pick up on something you said, and mark, i will ask you, it's democracy in your top three concerns right now? >> i would say our democratic republicans, and also the stability of our country is definitely on my list. i would be concerned about the personality cult and its control over one of the major political parties in this country, and i think he's coming back and i don't know what that will mean for this country. so yes, absolutely because the polling shows a lot of people think that the election two years ago it was rigged in the state of michigan. i strongly disagree with that. i don't care if you are a candidate who lost, there are

so many checks and balances in this country, in this state. and i am sure that most of us who were involved in this system have witnessed those protections. and i am just very concerned about that. >> i will ask you the same question wayne. where is democracy on the list of concerns are now? >> definitely in my top five. i start questions off with my republican friends, the election in 2020, did trump lose or not? if they can't answer with a straight face, that's probably not going to be my candidate. so to me, there's nothing wrong with losing, coming back and fighting again as opposed to still complaining, like these big sports guys. no point of complaining about something that you lost two years later. let's focus on winning and moving forward. it frustrates me to see people i know personally, who still kind of will not let that go. >> given what you have seen donald trump do, would you vote for him again? >> right now, i am [laughs] i would like to see other candidates out there. >> a simple man!

he did diplomat, i like that! >> i like to see other candidates. >> when you talk to students, is democracy on their minds? >> it absolutely is. i think it comes in many avenues. you are not likely to see as many young people going, oh my goodness, i am so concerned about election integrity. but they are concerned about it in ways that manifests differently. so one of the things that i could speak to right now, myself included's media literacy, in the way that we interact with information. there's somewhat false information out there, we all know that. so you know for young people, it can be really bombarding. we are on social media. we are all around, constantly communicating. and i think that we can all kind of agree that press is democracy, you don't have one without the other. and there is a real tied against people who work in media and press right now. it is not, i mean, i am 20 years old. i work in a college newspaper.

i get emails from people telling me that i am the anti christ. i hate democracy because of the work that i do. >> not sure it will get much better for you after this, sorry to tell you. >> i don't expect it to be. but one of the things, when i talk to people, students, peers and as a, hey interview you for this? they are like, do you feel like the work you are doing is worth it? because there is so much vitriol. and i think the answer is always yes, and the answer for so many people in college right now is that the more information that we have, the more information we have access to, the better off we will be, the better of our democracy is going to be. >> i really love that discussion. be sure to stay with us, the final portion of that important conversation will be coming up in our next hour. coming up at the top of the hour, we have brand-new nbc news polling on america's top interests in the upcoming midterm, and the threat to

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it is detroit, michigan. that gathering of buildings on the left there, the more modern building with a round one on the top, that round one is general motors. this is the renaissance center, general motors is headquartered over here in detroit, ford is headquartered in dearborn, just west of here. also in wayne county, that's the beautiful detroit skyline. and that, to the south of it, the left, you will then see the beginnings of the ambassador bridge, which is one of the ways that connects to canada, winds are ontario's just across the bridge from there. this is the art of automaking, the heart of auto making in america -- and canada, by the way. on the winter side, on the ontario side, there are many cars made over their. it was actually the interchange between michigan and ontario which gave birth to free trade zone between canada and the united states, having to do with autoparts and cars, which then gave birth to the entire north america free trade act, nafta, because it worked so

well. but a car goes back and forth between these two countries, where different parts are made. that is the ambassador bridge, where there was that trucker strike protest thing last year which was just weird, that all took place on the ambassador bridge. it was this year, actually, it took place on the ambassador bridge. but it's one of the busiest border crossings on the entire continent, both in terms of volume and in terms of dollar value. so that is windsor, ontario you are looking at. lots of ships here to, this is one of the most interesting places in america, geographically the center of the continent, it has rail lines, it has got a border, a river, the detroit river, you are looking at. it is also connected to the great lakes, a lot of shipping in fact. every little while, here in detroit, you will see a big ship going by. we just saw one a few minutes ago. it was a grain ship, i'm calling it a green shape, it's called a bulk dry ship. anything dry that could be loaded on and off, it's not like cargo, like cars and things like that, it's not

containers, it's dry things going into their, that is canada in the background we're looking at. that ship is going, these are great lakes cargo ships carrying a lot of stuff on them. so this is the heart of trade. it is here that the middle class in america was born, because of the lines, the factory lines which were built here, the assembly lines, which henry for started. and of course it became the auto industry. it's a very important part of this country's manufacturing history, this whole region in the upper midwest, and its manufacturing history. after the break, we will head overseas, to iran, where an uprising is underway, growing bigger and bigger by the day. i will talk to the author of an important new book, 12 understand how we got there, why should not come as a surprise, and what we can expect for the future of iran. your heart... your joints... or your digestion... so why wouldn't you take something for the most important part of you...

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strike according to activists he spoke to afp. the country is and you get six to be good for tests, march for the death of 22-year-old mahsa amini, who died after being arrested for allegedly violating the country's leading force islamic dress code. more than one or 20 people have been killed according to amnesty, at least 23 of those dead are children, between the ages of 11 and 17, according to amnesty. the quarterly council of iranian teachers trade associations said it is organizing a two day strike, beginning today over what it calls the merciless crackdown on children. the women lead uprising is pose one of the boldest challenges to iran's clerical leadership since the 1979 let's islamic revolution. what are the outcome, it is expedient exposing the regime's legitimacy, so the country's ruling clerical class has long sent to conceive in the world. what muscle and the knee woke up on that day, he was certainly not expecting to be arrested, or in three days time, he would spark on the biggest national uprisings in decades.

what makes a martyr a martyr, it's less about the individual, and more about how society perceives itself. after all, you cannot be a murder people cannot claim that your loss is there's, if they can't use your name to express their collective trauma, ordinary people become folk heroes because they bruised corpses laid bare the social inequalities inherent in abuses of power, and what be masala meanie of the world to just, it's all people of life, yearn for allegedly freedom of dignity. mahsa amini's death has become a battle cry, for a nation that's been rendered invisible to us, partly because of skewed western perceptions of iran and its people. for years, we listened to western pollsters, who inaccurately portrayed iran as a highly religious country. this is known as the sampling problem. metrics which require the contact information of respondents living in iran. you could see why that is a problem, right? kind of like pulling in russia right now, asking people who live in oppressive regimes to identify themselves, while

answering questions about that very regime. the kind of answers which will get you thrown into jail, maybe killed. well, to iranian academics sought to create a more accurate and safe way of capturing iran's social situation. in 2020, they designed the first large-scale survey, which showed possible proof of iran's secularity. their findings revealed a secular shift across around. 47% of respondents claim that in the lifetime, they had gone from being religious to non religious. 68% agreed that religious edicts should be excluded from legislation, 72% opposed the law requiring women to wear the hijab. they described their findings, the authors write, reliable large-scale data on iranians post revolutionary religious beliefs has always been lacking. over the years, research and wave of protests and crackdowns indicated massive disappointment among iranians with their political system. this steadily turned into a deeply felt disillusionment

with institutional religion, and quote. their findings went viral and sparked a national dialogue among people in the country, top of that survey they came so widespread, it caught the attention of the supreme leader, khamenei, who slammed it as false and unscientific. iran's deputy interior minister however, appeared to recognize the result when in january, he warned his colleagues quote, these will be extremely alarming if we find out that as a result of the incompetency of the government, people feel that the religious government is incapable of solving the country's problems, and that a secular government can be effective. and quote. these findings along with the death of mahsa amini, and images of iranian women burning their hijabs came as a shock to many western onlookers. but iran experts like oslo say they have been observing what has been simmering for a long time. he has a brand-new book out, which chronicles the life of another martyr who comes from an unlikely place, the american, howard basketball, who traveled to iran to teach, but would go

on to join iran's first democratic uprising. he joins me after a break. we will dig into the book and what he calls iran's fourth revolution, which is happening today. today. iva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. it's the subway series menu! 12 irresistible subs... like #6 the boss. pepperoni kicks it off. with meatballs smothered in rich marinara. don't forget the fresh mozzarella. don't you forget who the real boss is around here. it's subway's biggest refresh yet. research shows that people remember ads with young people having a good time. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a pool party. look what i brought! liberty mutual! they customize your home insurance... so you only pay for what you need! ♪young people having a good time with insurance.♪

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talking terms. as i mentioned before the break, something remarkable is happening in iran right now. i want to talk about it with

the iranian american writer and scholar of global theology, and a friend, reza aslan. his latest book was published earlier this month, an american martyr in persia, the epic life and tragic death of howard baskerville. rezza, i'm sure you did not time the writing of this book on the fact that iran would once again be in global headlines. and of course because of that, i have to take you there for a moment, because you are an expert on this. so thank you for talking to me about this, indulging me for a moment. i want to quote from an article that you wrote about, a piece for the times, the protests that are going on in iran right now. you wrote the biggest difference between the current revolution in iran, the so-called green movement of 2009, is that the latter never managed to extend beyond a middle class, urbanized youth movement. but the dramatic images pouring out of iran are showing older women, covered head to toe in tours, marching alongside unveiled women in jeans is a clear indication that this

uprising is -- farmers, retired workers, even members of iran's vital oil industry have all joined the protests against the regime. why reza, why is this happening? >> as you said earlier, there is widespread disaffection with this regime. not just the religious aspect of it, and the way in which it is forcing its own particularly conservative brand of islam upon every sector of society, but because of the fact that it is a corrupt government. a government which routinely engages in horrific human rights violations. it is a government, ali, which has failed in every responsibility. in fact, the most basic responsibilities that a government has. so it is not just the younger people, it is not just women, it is almost every sector of society, that has come together at this moment, and in a single, united call has been calling

for the end of this regime. >> i was there in 2015, when the iran nuclear deal was being negotiated. there was hope among the people of iran that this deal would happen, and give them a better life. how much is pulling out of the steal, and i don't want to absolve the iranian regime of any responsibility, of anything going on right now, but did the polling out of the deal under the trump administration create more of a hard-line government in iran? >> it is hard to say. certainly, the elections which came out of iran immediately after the president remove the united states from the deal, has made life in iran far, far worse. but that said, i think what we are seeing in iran, it was inevitable. yes, this has been primarily a feminist uprising. and as you rightly note, this was a movement that began with the murder of mahsa amini. but that said, the reason why

it has managed to get so many other swaths of the iranian population in conservative areas, in more rural areas, as you rightly said, teachers are now joining this protest. business groups are now joining this protest. conservatives, even the very sort of pious individuals who, in the past, during other uprisings have kind of come to the, this sort of protection if you will, the defense of the regime, even they are joining this uprising. and when you see a coalition like that, ali, one thing that you can sort of guarantee is that whatever comes out of this revolution, the iranian regime is not going to be what we see today. the days of this regime are absolutely numbered. >> you are new, bookstore fantastic new book and all of your stuff is always so well researched. it is about a little known american missionary named

howard baskerville, who traveled to iran to teach english and to preach the gospel. he ended up dying in iran while helping the iranians fight for their freedom. he is regarded as a national hero in iran. what can we learn from baskerville story? what does it mean for this protest underway today? >> well, this 22-year-old christian missionary who went there in 1907, and ended up fighting, as you rightly said in iran's first democratic revolution, the constitutional revolution was very specifically told by the american government, that he had no business in this fight. he was told it was not his country, these were not his people. this was not his revolution. it had nothing to do with him. and ali, very famously near the end of his life, he responded to the american government, the only difference between me and these people fighting for their most basic rights, is the country of my birth, and that is not a big difference. it has been 115 years.

and on one hand, it's depressing that iranians are still dying for the same exact writes that howard baskerville died for, one century ago. at the same time, i think there is a real lesson to be learned in those words of his. we have so much in common with the people on the streets, in iran, sacrificing themselves for the rights that we take for granted. and despite our national differences, despite our political and ethnic differences -- despite our religious differences, we have to tap into our common humanity and we have to support those brave men and women who are basically calling for just the ability to have a say in the decisions that rule their lives. ali, this is not a big request. this is in fact, the most basic of human rights. >> i always thought when i was in iran, and i would see these morality police, you know, if you just got rid of them, people would sort of understand, let me live my life, i don't

agree with what the government does. but you know, these minor incursions into peoples lives, sometimes it's the spark that creates a revolution. so now people are not just mad about the morality police, but mad about the entire regime, they want the whole thing changed. the government sometimes does do the wrong thing over and over again. reza, my friend, thank you've been with us. i always enjoyed having you on the show. we do it more regularly. reza aslan is a scholar of global theology, author of an american murdered in persia: the epic life and tragic death of howard basketball. don't go anywhere, there's more to come on this michigan edition of velshi across america. in a few moments, i will bring you brand-new nbc news polling revealing just how important the american public use the threat to democracy. plus more from my illuminating panel conversation with a group of six michiganders. another hour of velshi, live in detroit michigan begins, right now. ht now.