feel the presence is going to help him in his campaigns. he's a successful fundraiser, going about the country to raise money to help his party. he is not the surrogate that people want. that is former president barack obama. we see him. he has plans to travel around the country. president biden has not done a single rally since before labor day. i think that is a striking fact for the sitting president and the leader of the party that he's not able to be that type of surrogate that can gin up the base, get out the vote, and maybe we'll see things change in the final few days here, but so far there are no plans for that sort of big rally in one of the most competitive races. >> there are trips on the horizon, but it's limited to be sure. "washington post," tyler pager, thank you so much for joining us this morning, and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts next. i don't think he's man enough to show up. i don't think his lawyers will

want him to show up because he has to testify under oath, but i don't think he'll show up. i don't think he's man enough. we'll see. >> okay. i guess she said that. >> nancy pelosi challenges the former president, doubting he will give any testimony to the january 6th committee. >> i don't know if you heard, but at one point, she didn't think he was man enough to show up. >> we'll go through the time line in that investigation in just a moment. meanwhile, alarming details about what the fbi found at trump's country club, documents so sensitive they could endanger the lives of people who are helping u.s. intelligence. also healed, boris johnson. >> he wants to come back, right. >> he's a no go. >> like tom brady's comeback. >> he's a no go. >> this is going to end really well for everybody involved. >> he's no longer in the running to become the british prime minister. >> what? >> but a new leader could be named as soon as today.

we'll go live to london for that. plus, joe, the part of the game you never saw, it's coming now. okay. the world series match up that everyone predicted. >> i mean, listen, everybody knew, like we said all along, the phillies definitely would not be there. this is unbelievable, actually. >> the philadelphia phillys are in the fall classic for the first time since 2009. houston astros are back for the fourth time in six years. >> go. >> you got to finally see it. i'm so happy for you. >> so exciting. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it's monday, october 24th. we have former white house press secretary under president obama robert gibbs, also a member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gay, and the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. this phillies game, though, jonathan lemire, i've got to say, the bryce harper moment

really was unbelievable. it was one of those ortiz moments. this guy has been waiting a decade to be in the situation, and when he was in that situation, he delivered a two run home run that put them ahead, put the phillies ahead of the padres and on their way to the world series. it really was just an electric moment. i will say, close to it, ortiz, a curt gibson moment wasn't it? . >> it was. bryce harper was one of the most highly touted baseball prospects ever. he has lived up to it. won two mvps, hall of fame numbers, and never much in the way of post season success. the washington nationals won a world series in 2019, soon after harper left town to sign with the phillies, but that right there was the swing of a lifetime. that was a magic moment. the phillies had blown a lead. it was raining, they were down a

run in the 8th inning, and that two-run homer gave them the lead and they hung on to win. this is a team that had the longest post season drought in the national league. they haven't won a world series since 2008, and now they will go. they not only get to go to the world series but they are the newly dubbed america's team. because we will need them to beat the houston astros. i was certainly in the minority, routing for houston on this set last week, and i'll throw it back to you with this, joe. do you remember -- it's been a while, but do you remember when the new york yankees used to go to the world series? >> jonathan, stop it. everybody hates a bad loser. >> i'm not being a bad loser. i'm being a bad winner. >> as a red sox fan, you're actually being both. the phillies against the astros, but the phillies have had an extraordinary run, very critical of adding, i think they have 17 or 18 wild card teams in the

playoff system. pensacola catholic high, actually was in one of the early rounds because they throw so many people in there. i will say, the phillies are have proven the up side of the system. it's been a magical run. but they're going against a buzz saw in the houston astros, going to be a fun world series. >> i of course was texting my daughter who was in that audience, right at like the wrong moment. i guess something big happened, are you cold, sweetie, is it raining. >> don't do that. >> that's when bryce was walking up to the plate. >> got it. let's get to the news, two weeks away from the midterm elections, new polling shows voter enthusiasm is at an all time high. in the latest nbc news survey, 70% of voters say they are very interested in casting their ballots next month. that's the highest that number has been in a midterm election at this point. as to why that is, 80% of voters

from both major parties say the opposition poses a major throat, that if not stopped could destroy america as we know it. both sides believe this. that belief is so strong that 2/3 of democrats and republicans say they are willing to vote for their party's candidate even if that person had a moral failing in their personal life that goes against their own values. >> let's bring in nbc news political correspondent steve kornacki at the big board. we're seeing that playing out, and we're going to get into the polls and how heated things are. i will say, though, we are seeing in a few states the prospects of possible ticket splitting. look at georgia where kemp is doing much better than herschel walker. he's walking away with it right now. it seems least in polls three weeks out, two weeks out, and you have the same thing in philadelphia, in pennsylvania, you have dr. oz who's made it a

really tight race, and could end up winning while josh shapiro, a democrat, looks like he's on his way to becoming the next governor of pennsylvania. >> i add a third state to that possibly, different reasons, different dynamic, arizona, kari lake who has echoed everything donald trump has said about the 2020 election and was thought, i think, by conventional wisdom to be the weakest candidate republicans could put up for governor, leading in the poll, and the democratic mark kelly continues to lead. there's the potential of a ticket split of a different type out in arizona this year. >> you know, we did actually see this happen in 2020, and i think the most dramatic sense possible. at least in our times. joe biden won maine by 9 points. susan collins, who many people thought, i thought was going to actually lose that seat because of kavanaugh and because, you

know, fundraisers with the federalist society and the sort of things she had run against her entire career there, i thought she was going to lose. she ended up winning by 9 points, a whopping 18 point swing in maine, which shows that is still possible, and it could happen here. what races are you -- let's go through the poll from yesterday. fascinating as always, and just the interplay between biden's approval rating which is holding up well, but this race where republicans seemed really enthusiastic. >> yeah, i think that was one of the biggest numbers that jumped out at me. let's go through all of them, so you can see what's in the poll here. when you ask the generic ballot question or new nbc poll with registered voters, that's the only criteria for being included in this question here, democrats have a lead of one point, and we've had all year the nbc poll has been measuring registered voters and hasn't shone a lot of

big swings from pole to pole. democrats up a point with registered voters. somewhat significantly for the first time we applied a likely voter screen to this as well. trying to figure out based on people saying what their enthusiasm level is, based on how much they have participated in past midterm elections, that sort of thing, who the likely voters are, and there it flips. republicans take a one point lead in the likely voter model over democrats in terms of the top issue here, a combination, if you combine jobs and the cost of living or inflation, we asked them separately, but just for simplicity sake, we combined them here. again, a little bit more of a third of voters citing economy or inflation as their top issue. republicans among this group of voters with an overwhelming lead. republicans also with an overwhelming advantage on the issue of crime. a far smaller number of folks saying that. those who cite threats to democracy as their top motivating issue. those who cite abortion.

that's where democrats have their key strength in the pole. biden's approval rating is 45%. on the economy, though, it's a little bit lower, and more significantly on the economy, fully 50% of the electorate as they expect the economy to get worse over the next 12 months. so there is this sort of cloud of economic pessimism that's hanging over the electric here, and then you're getting to the question of interest that you talked about. overall, 70% of voters rating themselves with the highest level of interest in these midterm elections. highest we've ever measured that number at this point. here's what's changed in this poll from our last one. the gap between the republicans and the democrats. 78% republicans put themselves in that highest category. 69% of democrats. you can see the gap between republicans and democrats was narrower. this was the story of the summer, the story following the supreme court decision to

overturn roe. you saw democrats erase the enthusiasm republicans had. now that's creeping back into the picture. the disconnect between the registered voters and likely voters that's what this is getting at. to the extent, this becomes a dynamic and a factor in the final two weeks and one day of this campaign. that's an opportunity there for republicans. >> so robert gibbs, i know a lot of democratic candidates have to be really frustrated, you look at the numbers and you see who's motivated, who's not motivated and you can hear the candidate going, wait a second, i'm running against an election denier who wants to take away a constitutional right guaranteed to women for 50 years, who says really, january 6th, where there were riots and an attempt to overthrow a peaceful election and stop the peaceful transition between presidents for the first time since the civil war. democrats don't feel motivated

to go out and vote for that. explain if you can your take away from that line of the poll, but also the poll overall, what you're looking at. >> yeah, well, i think if you look at those numbers, you see democrats continuing to maintain that as republicans grow their enthusiasm. i think that's highlighted by what you're seeing on the economy, what you're seeing in ads all around the country on crime and immigration. and i think, look, this is a reaction as most midterms are, to the person that's in the white house. i think overall the poll is obviously less good news for democrats. particularly when you throw in the likely voter screen and it changes a bit of the congressional ballot to a plus one republican. i am struck. joe biden's approval rating is fairly strong from where it's been. six months ago it was in the upper 30s. now it's solidly in the mid-40s. if you're a democratic strategist waking up in the

country today. >> and it seems to me in weekend i spent time reading articles, op-eds and getting feedback on the fact that voters are interested in the economy and concerned about crime. and, you know, democrats are trying to convince people that -- like, for instance with the black voters that elise talked to in philadelphia, crime's a big problem. i'm afraid to go to work. i'm afraid to go home, and we have people saying, oh, they don't know what they're talking about, it's safer than ever in philadelphia, and oh, how can you say this economy is bad. you don't understand. unemployment is at 3 1/2%. it's almost like they're not grasping what voters are very concerned about. >> it's striking, joe. it's amazing because actually i think democrats have unfortunately allowed the republican party to run away with messages on the economy and

on crime in many races across the country. i'm not sure there's a reason for that. often times, like we're seeing here in new york, the republican candidate for governor is an example. lee zeldin who has been running ads around crime that certainly speak to the concerns that voters have as all candidates should. but yet don't actually offer any substantiative solutions for public safety. there's no reason that democrats should allow the republicans to do that. the question is can democrats pivot quickly enough, kind of realizing that that's going to be the top concern for many voters in the next coming weeks or are they going to kind of have trouble transitioning away from what they thought was going to be the more important issues on voters minds which was abortion, for example. it is striking, though, that in many polls, we are seeing that for democrats, the top issue is

democracy. the question is can they turn those voters out as well. >> that's the question in terms of timing. steve kornacki, how many times have you seen numbers close up or change in the final weeks before a midterm election? what are we, two weeks away, two and a half weeks away? >> two weeks and one day away. i mean, we have seen the parallel has been drawn between this year and 2014. and 2014 was barack obama's second midterm and it ended up being a wave year for republicans. it was a late building, slow developing wave to the degree that even on election night, the 6:00 election night, a lot of people didn't see it coming and yet republicans ended up winning senate seat after senate seat, getting control of that chamber, also winning enough seats in the house to bring them to the highest level there, and they had been there since 1928. there have been some signs that this one might be moving in that direction, just give you one measure of it here.

we have been tracking the key senate races and what the polling average looks like. here are the democratic held seats, republicans need a net gain of one. they have to win at least one of these, if they hold all of their own. republicans continue to have a small lead in katherine cortez masto's nevada seat. that would be a pickup for republicans if they were to get it. rafael warnock led by several points a few weeks ago, now on average, one point. we mentioned mark kelly in arizona, he continues to lead at 2 1/2 points. that's a very competitive race. the seats republicans are trying to defend, and i think democrats are getting very nervous about pennsylvania because of the trajectory of pennsylvania. john fetterman, the democrat continues to lead. that would be a flip if fetterman wins this. a democratic win is a net gain, but august 1st, john fetterman's

lead on average was 8 points, 7 points, republicans are erased nearly all of that at this point. so the trajectory has got to be concerning for democrats and meanwhile in some of the more recent polling, ohio, j.d. vance, wisconsin, ron johnson, he finds himself leading in polls. that's a brand new place for him in his political life. you can add north carolina to the list as well. that's what we have seen over last ten days. republicans have moved into striking distance in a couple of democratic held seats and they have padded, at least in the polling, they have padded a little bit their advantage in some of the seats that they already hold in addition to making pennsylvania much more competitive. >> the map if it holds right there as those numbers, that's still democrats, that's still 50/50, but you're right in terms of pennsylvania, joe, mika, being a source of anxiety for democrats. fetterman and dr. oz meet for their one and only debate.

i was talking a lot of strategy, the voter enthusiasm numbers and particularly worry about black and latino voters who have been for so long the real core of the democratic coalition that those voters seem less enthusiastic, less motivated this time around. less inclined to break for the democrats because of issues like crime and the economy, and the polling suggesting what top voter issues are. if you add up inflation, cost of living. economic issues, that's by far the top issue on voters' minds joe and mika. right now, those seem to be breaking for the republicans. >> they do. we have a couple of weeks left, and robert gibbs, i can't tell you how many election nights i went into where all the polls, the pollsters did their best, the pundits did their best. i can go all the way back to 1980 where the night started and

we were at least told that was going to be too close to call. it ended up being a massive victory for ronald reagan. i remember so many races. we talked about 2014. there's another great example. i can talk about 1998 in the middle of impeachment, every smart person in washington said it was going to be a massive night for republicans and newt gingrich. the democrats held their own, did very well, four days later, newt gingrich is run out of town. when you saw a race, six of ten are within the margin of error. we could see things breaking the republicans' way, and a very red night. explain how, you look at what happened in kansas. polls were about 15, 16 points off. look what happened in 2016, even

in 2020, biden was supposed to win some states by double digits, and ended up winning by less than 1%. talk about how this is still all up for grabs. >> absolutely, and i would say we're at that point in the election where if you're looking for an antidote because you're depressed about something, spin around the internet for 20 or 30 seconds and you can find a poll or polling question that will find or give you cause for relief. i think we are seeing the vans and the limits of polling as we get closer to the elections. look at early turnout numbers in places like nevada, how are democrats doing in a place like clark county. are they building up the types of leads they normally need to win statewide. i think we're coming from the macro of national polling into the micro of really what's happening in states. your point, joe, is really important. what we have tended to see, again, particularly in these

midterm elections is everything breaks at a certain point, early it may break late, but it does tend to break in one direction. that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to end up with 55 republican senators. you may end up with one party or another winning all the close races, when we get to the end of election night. >> nbc's steve kornacki, thank you very much. we'll see you again real soon. and still ahead on "morning joe," we are learning new details about the fbi's search of mar-a-lago, and it turns out some of the documents taken from trump's palm beach home contained classified intelligence about iran and china. >> just unbelievable. it's unbelievable. >> ken dilanian joins us with that new reporting. plus, what congresswoman liz cheney is saying about the possibility of donald trump testifying before the house select committee. also ahead, the latest from the uk where former prime

minister boris johnson has dropped out of the race to replace outgoing leader liz truss. we'll take a look at the top contenders. and later this morning, "the washington post's" bob woodward joins us to talk about his audio book, that features a dozen interviews with former president trump. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ching "morn" we'll be right back. breakthrough heartburn... means your heartburn treatment is broken. try zegerid otc. it contains the leading medicine to treat frequent heartburn, uniquely designed for absorption. get all day, all night relief with zegerid otc. it's the subway series menu. 12 irresistible subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪

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ask your doctor about everyday verzenio. so the committee treats this matter with great seriousness. and we are going to proceed in terms of the questioning of the former president under oath. it may take multiple dates. and it will be done with a level

of rigor and discipline. he's not going to turn this into circus. this isn't going to be like the first debate and the circus that became. this is for too serious a set of issues. >> it's not going to be the first debate with joe biden unless he waits it out. >> remember that? >> he was like a professional wrestler. >> didn't he had covid at some point. >> at one point, he started yelling at the podium, are you talking to me. that was one of the craziest performances in history. >> i'm walking here. he did one of those. yeah, it was a lot. trump it later came out from chief of staff, mark meadows, he had covid at the time of the first debate. he was sweaty and loud, at one point, joe biden literally said, shut up, man.

hopefully we won't get a repeat of that for his hearing. >> it had to be done. >> people around the president, they don't think he'll actually show up. >> american democracy is strong. >> okay. that was vice chair of the january 6th committee liz cheney on whether the panel is open to live testimony from the former president. >> she did not say what nancy pelosi said. >> no, that he wasn't man enough to show up. >> she said that twice. i don't think he's man enough to show up. >> we saw it twice. >> she was emphasizing the point. >> well, exactly. >> on friday, the january 6th committee officially issued a subpoena to former president donald trump demanding he turn over a number of documents related to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election by november 4th. the committee also wants any communications he had with extremist groups who were involved in the capitol attack. lawmakers ordered trump to testify under oath on november 14th, either in person, at the

capitol or by video conference. >> let's bring in now, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian. ken, there's not much of a chance that if this goes to the supreme court, they're going to make him go testify, is there? >> good morning, joe, it's a real interesting question, you know, obviously this congress doesn't have much longer to run, and this committee is wrapping up. i'm trying to understand what the play is here. they set a very tight deadline of early november for trump to come over. do they then try to hold him in contempt of congress, and refer that over to the justice department and see whether the justice department will act quickly? because as we've seen with steve bannon, you can't just refuse to show up necessarily. now, a former president has perhaps his own special claims, but former presidents have testified before congress. it's never been decided, though, what happens when a former

president resists a congressional subpoena. we'll have to see. one thing that's clear is that this subpoena was written almost like an indictment. it summed up the case that the january 6th committee has made arguing that donald trump orchestrated a corrupt scheme to try to overturn the election that broke the law in many respects, and the subpoena also suggested they have information that trump is communicating with encrypted apps, which i found interesting. this is a man that we know doesn't use e-mail or write down anything down. if they have reason to believe he's texting with people on signal. >> i'm just wondering, can you explain to laymen who don't understand what a subpoena is kind of what power the committee has to if any to compel the president to testify and what this really actually means in just laymen speak? >> yeah, no, it's a great

question. this is not like a subpoena from a federal grand jury. it's a congressional subpoena, and so they have very limited power. they don't have their own police force to go arrest donald trump and bring him to congress. i think that used to exist back in the day. that doesn't happen anymore. so their only real option here, they could go to court civilly to get the courts to order donald trump to appear or they could, as they did with steve bannon, and peter navarro, and mark meadows send over, you know, congress would have to hold him in contempt, and they send a contempt citation over to the justice department and ask them in war to enforce the subpoena, and if he refuses, there's a criminal trial. you can see how long that would take. it's clear the clock is running out on this congress, you know, and it seems probably that this subpoena is unenforceable. >> and on friday, steve bannon was sentenced to four months in

prison, a little less than the doj had advised. they were looking for six months, but he's behind bars for four long months right now. also the fbi found documents containing classified intelligence containing iran and china at trump's mar-a-lago home. that's according to two people familiar with the matter telling nbc news. "the washington post" was first to report the intelligence on iran and china was found at mar-a-lago during the fbi's search of the property in august. sources tell the post that if shared with others, such information could expose intelligence gathering methods that the u.s. wants to keep hidden from the world. at least one document reportedly describes iran's missile program while others describe highly sensitive intelligence work aimed at china. the documents are considered to be among the most sensitive the fbi has recovered from trump's possession to date.

in response to this story, a trump spokesperson provided a statement to nbc news stating quote the endless leaks and lies from a weaponized justice department which offered a $1 million bounty to encourage the fabrication -- >> i don't need to hear this. ken, obviously they have lied time and time again. we've got the facts it shows that actually they're lying even more so we're just going to assume for now, of course, we could be wrong, but given the track record of what we've heard was contained in these documents and that there were these documents, talk about how critically important classified documents on iran and china would be to the intel community and the grave risk that it would pose if it were outside of its secured location. >> this is a huge development

and did confirm the gist of the reporting that the documents were found. this sends the investigation into a disturbing new direction. it's one thing to keep classified letters with the north korean leader or a leadership profile of emmanuel macron, the french president, but what possible reason or purpose or interest would he have in highly technical documents about iran or about intelligence gathering efforts against china, which by the way are extremely -- would be extremely valuable to any adversary or even nonadversary, to anybody, this is, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars worth of intelligence. why does he have this stuff. i mean, this is a huge question in this investigation. and it's a big deal. anybody else who had this stuff would already be in custody. we have said this before. we didn't know until this moment that we're talking about highly, highly classified documents about intelligence gathered about our foremost adversaries.

this is a huge deal. we need to understand more, and as far as i know, congress has not yet been briefed on what the fbi found, what else they found at mar-a-lago, and that probably needs to happen, if i'm a senior member of congress, i would like to know quickly what the damage has been from these disclosures. >> jonathan lemire, that's the point to make, and i think at the end of the day, if we're trying to look down the road to see where all of this goads, and people are disgusted by the fact that it seems that donald trump gets away with things that nobody else would get away with. >> other people would be in jail, that part. >> i had a conversation with a weapons specialist who is working on secret programs for the united states military, and we were just discussing what's been happening here. and the guy said i've been doing this for 20 years. if i took one document out, build in jail.

they let me know that. you just don't do it. you talk to people in the intel community, they tell you the same thing, i can tell you as a member of congress, i knew people that i worked with, served with that were charged and went to jail for much less than this. you look at what happened to two former cia directors, what happened to a former national security adviser. you know, they were charged with crimes, and so we sit here right now saying, how can he get away with this. i don't think he is. i don't think he is because we have laws in this country. we're a nation of laws. i think we're finding no person is above the law, so justice will be served. i think the great mystery to us politically is why people don't give a damn about this if they support republican candidates. oh, it's much ado about nothing when anybody else doing this would be put in jail and when

they were all screaming five years ago, lock her up. six years ago, lock her up, for hillary clinton doing far far less than this. >> our friend, james stavridis, four star admiral, said if he had one document he shouldn't have had, he would have been arrested. so to underscore your point. the ramifications are huge. this is not showing off to reporters and friend about kim jong un writing him a note. this is not gossiping about emmanuel macron's personal life. this is compromising human assets on the ground. it compromises ongoing intelligence operations. it could change how our allies view us. would they be less likely to share secrets with the united states because donald trump or someone like him could blab about them. it may upset other nations, hostile nations, iran, china, learn what we're up to. none of this is good.

this is a significant blow potentially to the intelligence community that this nation has put together so carefully for so many decades. and i want to take a variation of what joe said to you, it does seem like people don't care about this, though this is such a big deal. to the political lens, i don't know that we're going to see blowback for the midterms but like if donald trump is considering his own presidential run again, and all indications he is, is this something that can be held against him, setting aside the criminal aspect of it. the political aspect of it. do you think this will change any voters' minds about him, and if not, why not? >> look, i think right now we're in the midst of an election that isn't focused on this. do i think this could impact donald trump winning if he decides to run again. all you have to do is look at the nbc poll, and understand we have had a long conversation in the last six months about joe biden's approval rating and whether it's strong enough.

donald trump is 12 points below in the nbc poll, 12 points below where joe biden is, and i think it's because of stories like this where you see, one, people are reminded of the continued chaos that follows donald trump wherever he goes. two, the specifics of something like this, this isn't going to go away. this isn't going to get brought up. to joe's point, the justice department is going to bring this up. it becomes -- every time we read these stories about a different document and a different thing that has been found during that search, it becomes harder and harder for the attorney general and the department of justice not to do something on this. and i think when the election period ends, this is going to be front and center, and it's going to have severe ramifications for donald trump. >> and again, i mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, i didn't have his name, but dan mclaughlin, baseball crank has

this as his pinned tweet, i think it's so right, remind yourself of this every day, any day spent talking about donald trump is a day republicans are losing. any day you spend talking about joe biden is a day democrats are losing. and i think we have seen, mika, over the past couple of weeks, donald trump mentioned less because, you know, there haven't been as many news reports about regarding the january 6th committee or regarding other things he's stayed active in. i agree with robert. he's toxic. donald trump is now toxic to a large enough number of voters in the suburbs of philadelphia, atlanta, suburbs of detroit, milwaukee, suburbs of phoenix, all the places that really move elections in swing states, and so there will be at some point

where it's obvious to republicans that i believe if this guy runs, he's toxic, he's going to lose for them, and they have to move on. >> the polling shows the documents was a little bit of a no go for people that they all agree that that's not okay. and you just wonder what else they're going to find, where else he has clubs and houses, wherever he's been. nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, thank you very much, and coming up, what will five more years of president xi jinping mean for china and the u.s., we'll go live to beijing as the communist party leader extends his authoritarian rule over the world's second largest economy. plus, nbc's keir simmons joins us live from outside 10 downing street with the latest on who will be the uk's next prime minister. >> again, boris johnson's comeback, not going any better than tom brady's. >> not happening. >> we'll be right back. rady's. >> not happening >> we'll be right back

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45 past the hour. tenses flared with south carolina overnight, both countries accusing one another of breaching maritime borders. south korea's navy fired warning shots after a north korean merchant ship violated the disputed boundary lines. north korea responded by firing its own round of warning shots. this latest exchange comes amid simmering tensions with north korea launches missiles at an unprecedented pace this year. joining us from beijing, nbc news foreign correspondent janis mackey frayer. what can you tell us? >> reporter: this area where it happened overnight is the western boundary area. it's poorly marked and has long bed this hot bed of dispute.

we had this exchange of fire between south korea and north korea. with each other accusing the other of crossing the northern limit line. this is coming at a very tense time in the region with this barrage of north korean weapons tests. after the most recent one, north korean officials had said that they were simulating the use of tactical nuclear weapons to quote hit and wipe out targets. over the past few weeks, both sides have been firing missiles, sending up fighter jets, buzzing the border. there are no lines of communication between the two sides right now, and there are also military drills set to happen this week between south korea and the u.s., which is always a flash point for pyongyang. and of course what's looming over everything is this expectation that kim jong un is going to conduct another nuclear test. he hasn't done one since 2017. satellite imagery has been showing us that he appears to be

preparing for one. now that the communist party congress here in china is over, there's the expectation he could do that test before midterms in the u.s. >> so janis, the front page of today's "wall street journal" talks about major developments from beijing over the weekend with the headline, xi extends control over china. that actually seems like a bit of an understatement, janis. people are talking about how he has more power than any leader since mao. i'm just curious, we understand it would be a bit of a statement, be a bit of an understatement, i'm confused, i'm sorry of -- okay, yeah, let's stop with the video. it's a bit of an understatement because there's been massive consolidation of control, again,

unlike anything since chairman mao. i'm curious, though, there seems to be a bit of an orderly process in the past going from leader to leader. how exactly did xi consolidate the power the way he has over the past five, six, seven years? >> reporter: there was no question that he was going to consolidate the control. when he unveiled the leadership, the top positions are occupied by xi loyalists. there's not a successor in sight because all of the members of the standing committee are too old or too young to take over at the next congress. it's likely that xi jinping could rule for another decade or longer. there are no women in the politburo for the first time in history. he has centralized power in a

way not seen since mao zedong. he has clipped the wings of technology. put companies back in control of the state in enterprises, and overseeing the modernization of the military. it's been a slow consolidation of power that seems to now be complete, which is why that moment on saturday at the closing session with hu jintao, the former leader, was in its own way, very symbolic. we were in the room. we were taking in at least a half hour late, and these things are so tightly coordinated so something was happening in the room before they let us in that had gone off script. when we got in, you could see that the stage, things were not in order. i mean, these events are so tightly choreographed, with chairs out of place, and people

standing. there was the sense that something had been going on, and we walked in on it. the whole sequence didn't appear in chinese state media. it's not that they erased hu jintao from the coverage, he was seen in shots beside xi jinping, but then all of a sudden there was an empty chair. in its own way, that symbolized this is the end of the era of collective leadership that hu jintao was a part of. it's the sidelining of the youth league that he helped oversee with many proteges being excluded from the current leadership, and seemed to mark the end of an era. seeing xi jinping on the stage with the empty chair beside him showing that he is now the one man in charge. >> a really chilling moment. >> that was. >> nbc's janis mackey frayer, thank you very much, we appreciate the reporting. and you know, it's so

interesting, all of the things, jonathan lemire, that she was talking about, the consolidation of power, turning it into a totalitarian state, the undermining of technology, the trashing of hong kong is really the epicenter of global trade, which is a much freer, market-driven area. all of these things that he seems to be doing actually seems to be taking china back 50, 60, 70 years, which of course is a human tragedy for the people of china, but economically, let's just be honest. economically all of those stupid moves help the united states in being able to compete more on the world globe, in the world economy, because who actually wants to follow that model if they want the economy to grow and they want entrepreneurs to be successful. >> and china's zero covid policy, which initially was

deemed as successful has now proven to be anything but, and prolonged the grip of the pandemic on the nation. that policy received a vote of confidence. china is not breaking from that. that will add to its potential economic woes in the years ahead. and you're right, we have seen there's real concern from the u.s. and the west about some of the computer chips and stuff that are manufactured in china, now an effort to do that here in the united states or in other countries. vietnam has benefitted from this, just to name one, and of course there is the ominous overtones of xi jinping's promise to reunify china, which is taiwan, and that is something everyone is watching here. there's a sense that xi has received the message, watching his pal putin struggle in ukraine that may deter him from moving on taiwan in the immediate future. it certainly can't be ruled out down the road, and he'll be watching how the western allies

continue to respond to ukraine as the war goes on for months and maybe years. let's move to the race to succeed uk prime minister liz truss. the man who appeared to be the favorite on friday has dropped out of the competition. boris johnson, who served as the united kingdom's prime minister from 2019 until early last month says he has come to the conclusion that vying for the post would quote not be the right thing to do. >> nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons, of course he left the race for the most complicated of reasons, starting with the fact he didn't have the votes. so that pretty much clears the field, doesn't it? >> reporter: pretty much. it was a few months ago, we stood here at downing street and watched boris johnson effectively say like arnold schwarzenegger, i'll be back. and over the weekend, he flew back to the uk, and last night,

unlike arnold schwarzenegger, he bottled it. no boris johnson. reports still say at some point he will be back. right now, it does look like rishi sunak, the man who the party rejected may be accepted and walk through the door behind me as the first person of color to walk through the door as prime minister, not least because through the summer during the conservative party election campaign, he pretty much predicted the economic turmoil that we have seen that has led to liz truss, the current prime minister having to leave. i mean, the white house is left just watching this political turmoil here in the uk, this economic turmoil here in the uk. there are some signs in the markets this morning that rishi sunak will stabilize things, but then there are very loud calls for a general election.

this continues to be a conservative party selection, a bit like a primary without a general election bauds the conservative party is the leading party. when and if it's rishi sunak, and not penny mordaunt, you just can't have one party choosing new leader after new leader, you need a vote for the country. >> and some stability. keir simmons, thank you very much. we appreciate it. and still ahead on "morning joe," elise jordan joins us with more on her focus groups from pennsylvania. with pennsylvania voters there, the eye opening comments from trump voters about the january 6th attack on the capitol. plus, we are taking a look at a far right event on that featured former national

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the propaganda was so heavy against trump that when you ask somebody, you know, why don't you like him. he's so mean. he's a bully. but what about his policies and everything important, i don't know. >> they never know. there's never an answer. 100% of the time. i never met anyone that ever had an answer for that. >> let's do a show of hands. do you think donald trump is going to have any legal repercussions for the classified documents he stored at mar-a-lago? >> i hope he go to jail before he runs for president.

>> obama, one document, one pen too many, it would have been a done deal. >> voters in the swing state of pennsylvania sharing their thoughts on the former president and what he took with him to his florida country club. we're going to have much more from elise jordan's focus groups in just a moment. plus, we're going to have more on the moral dilemma for conservative voters when it comes to senate candidate herschel walker and his troubled campaign. meanwhile, one of our guests calls walker's candidacy just insulting. also ahead, a split between the top republicans in congress on funding for ukraine. what mitch mcconnell is saying about support for this country if the gop takes control of congress. welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, october 24th. jonathan lemire, robert gibbs, amara gay still with us this morning, and joining the conversation, we have former aide to the george w. bush white house and state department, elise jordan, msnbc political

analyst, and the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton, and senior editor of the dispatch and contributing writer at the atlantic, david french is with us as well. so elise start us off with more from your focus groups. we were talking about this on friday. there are different schools of thought, and surprising ones, depending on where you come from, and how much we have been talking about this on the january 6th attack on the capitol. and what voters think about that. >> the documents and everything else trump. >> well, joe and mika, thank you so much for giving us this platform to discuss what people are saying, and this is not an insignificant portion of the electorate. it's, i believe, upwards of 65% of republicans, and so when we were in pennsylvania in a focus group of pittsburgh voters who all voted for donald trump.

everyone thought that the election was not free and fair in 2020. the result being that joe biden was elected president, and so we have some of that right now that we are going to listen to and then we hear their thoughts on january 6th and the insurrection at the capitol. >> doug mastriano was at the insurrection, and he was photographed breaching one of the restricted areas. is that okay? >> which area? because i saw video where capitol officers were taking away barriers and unlocking doors for people. so. >> they opened the gates and let them in. >> it shouldn't be disqualifying for an elected official if they participated in january 6th. >> he didn't strike anybody, he didn't hurt anybody. >> the only one that died was the protester there, not -- >> unarmed female veteran. that's the only one who died. >> a police officer did die. >> he had a heart attack. >> it was a stroke. >> that's not on site.

>> he shouldn't have been a police officer. >> what do you make, though, overall of january 6th, i mean, watching the footage, it was pretty disturbing, there were people throwing excrement at the walls, and it was the capitol. >> a lot like antifa's action . >> the same as the black lives matter riots! kenosha burns. >> just because one side that you disagree with, it's okay -- >> if it's good for one, it's good for the other. >> anybody that harms anybody, anybody who caused property destruction, that needs to be dealt with. if you're there making your voice heard at the people's house, no less, that's, again, a fundamental constitutional right of an american citizen. and people should not be being held political prisoner because of it. >> for misdemeanors. that's east germany tactics. >> that's what's scary. >> it was an actual fiery, but

mostly peaceful protest. >> was the protest legitimate in your eyes -- >> the administration, i feel like, is using it as their -- >> do you think that president trump could have quelled the violence that day? >> not him personally, i don't think so. >> i don't think so, no. >> it started while he was still speaking. i was actually there. i was there to see what i thought was going to be the last time i ever saw trump. little did i know. >> did he tell everybody to go and start rioting. >> no. >> i don't think so. >> and actually, i stayed for the whole speech. a ton of people did. and then we all headed to the capitol because he said let's go to the capitol and peacefully -- >> peacefully. >> let our voices be heard, and we get to the capitol, we're like what the hell is going on, it had already happened. >> i'm sure i saw democratic

operatives across barriers. >> you were there that day, what do you think? >> no, i mean, why would he tell people to do that? why do the people who did that not wait around for him to tell them to do that? he said that around the end of his speech, if i remember correctly. it happened before he even said that, i believe. >> the time line, because he was back at the white house, and then he tweeted. so he tweeted. people were still there. >> but it started while he was still speaking, and they talk about the fact that, oh, he didn't do anything for this amount of time. it's like, well, he was giving his speech. >> nancy pelosi denied his request of several thousand national guard troops. >> it actually isn't in pelosi's

power to deploy national guard. she's speaker of the house. she has no authority over that whatsoever, and frankly, i think that's a good thing. >> even so -- >> isn't she in charge of security for the capitol though? >> why didn't she preemptively beef up capitol police. she does have the authority to do. >> capitol police were there. >> but apparently they were taken off guard. >> yeah. >> oh, my god. >> you know, this is -- i really don't know where to start here. it's nancy pelosi's fault. it's democratic operatives' fault. it's the capitol police's fault. you go through all of this, elise, and then we hear things like it's a fundamental right to peacefully protest, that they were peaceful protests, and these people are political

prisoners who got locked up. and, again, they were mainly peaceful protests. and that nobody died except for a protester. there are four cops who died. and one of those cops died after an interaction here, and his family sure as hell believes -- he died the next day -- that it was directly related to this. i don't really know. this is just one of these moments, and again, i have friends and family members that think like this. i don't know where they're getting their information. but i'm reminded as they're trying to blame everybody from antifa to nancy pelosi that it was kevin mccarthy who was screaming at the top of his lungs, along with other republicans who were besieged inside the capitol building while all of these trump supporters were going in trying to kill mike pence, after donald trump told them to go to the

capitol. >> after donald trump told them ahead of time to do it. and some of those time lines are absolutely bizarre, saying, no, this happened while donald trump was still speaking. >> anything to take the blame off trump supporters. >> anything. >> and saying donald trump couldn't stop this. we know was a matter of fact that when he told them to leave, they left. so, again, you have done a great job. it's disturbing to a lot of people. this is what i hear all the time, personally, and i have to stop communicating on issues like this with friends if i want them to remain friends because they have been lied to. and either they eagerly accept that lie or they have been duped into believing that these were just peaceful protests, and that breaking through windows and beating the hell out of cops is okay. that's a message that they sent

that this was much ado about nothing. so anymore insights on those answers from -- it seemed to me, basic good law-abiding americans, my family members, people i grew up. how do they get from supporting ronald reagan, and george bush and mitt romney to this? >> that is a question way above my pay grade, but i will say, it's so important that we listen to this and we don't avert our gaze because too many people have turned away from looking at the actual fact pattern of what happened that day on january 6th and are, instead, choosing to cherry pick their own historical narrative. president trump chief among them, given that one of the

inaccuracies you heard parroted there that nancy pelosi could have defended the capitol. that's something that he has really been putting out there, and i believe he recently put out on one of those social networks that i can't even keep track of because he's always shifting around because he's banned or whatnot. but this is not an isolated belief set. it is widespread. and you have a subset of republicans who are really embarrassed by what happened on january 6th, and you hear, you know, they don't want to talk about it at all. but then, within the silo chambers of where news is coming to different voters groups, these voters are being bombarded with conspiracy theories and lies about what happened so much so that the original imagery of what happened, they already made with the narrative to push and to dispel that donald trump did anything wrong at all.

>> so david french, these are people. this is our tribe. we go to church with people like this. we were raised in communities with people like this, and just for people that are watching out there, which i tried to explain during the election, you know, donald trump accused me of murder 12 times, 13 times, tried to get an investigation opened up on me that would have eventually led to like my execution, and so around election time i just called my friends, who are you voting for, donald trump. okay, that's fine. i'm curious, and, you know, he did accuse me of murder. if a president accused you of murder, you know i would have spent the rest of my life chasing them down and making them regret that they ever got in politics, right. certainly wouldn't have voted for him. so there's that side of it,

right, and none of them had a good answer, but then here's the other side of it, i can sit and talk to them about anything and they're the same people they've always been. if i needed a lung transplant tomorrow, these people would be the first in line to say i'm there for you, joe, how can i help you out. you've helped me so much through your life, i've helped you so much. that is the massive disconnect. i promise, the people that saw these people in the focus group and think they have horns and they're going out, it is like this one strip of their life, and it is like a cult. and it is so hard for others to believe that outside of that, they're just wonderful people. you would like to sit and talk to. explain it, because it's hard for me to explain it still. it's still so shocking to me. >> you said it really well, and i think there was a real public

service there in that focus group because what you saw was what i would call mainstream maga. that was not extreme maga. that was not ultra maga. that was mainstream belief about january 6th, and people need to see this. and joe, what you said is exactly right, i was volunteering for samaritan's purse in mayfield, kentucky, after the hurricanes and i was surrounded by a bunch of other volunteers who were spending their time to help neighbors in need, you know, just doing incredible hard work and had been doing it for days, and while they were doing it, there was a debate as to whether the tornados had been sent by the deep state to punish trump voting areas of the country. so there's this area of politics where a whole bunch of people have really, they are diving deep into conspiracy theories. they're diving deep into obscure, well, they're less obscure now, but obscure prophesies, and they have really -- they're in their own kind of world, and where does

that world come from. it comes from a lot of conspiracy minded conservative infotainment media. or right wing media. you put out the dichotomy, i live in a neighborhood that's 85% republicans, including a lot of folks who would exactly say what was in the focus group. i thought it was great that americans hear the focus group, and in every other area of life, these are folks you want as your neighbors. and so saying you're terrible people or you're horrible people doesn't land with them because they know all of the areas of their life, and they know how they're involved in their community and their kids' school and you name it, but there is a fever surrounding this person, trump, and there's a fever surrounding some of these conspiracies, and i'm just not sure how to break it. >> well, and i say this with respect, it's not like a cult.

often when something is like a cult, over and over and over again, it is a cult, and cult leaders prey upon their members. the members are not evil people. they are preyed upon. they are victims of a cult. and of disinformation. elise, would love to hear more from your focus group as it pertains to not just the midterms and the documents, but, you know, where things stand right now, these folks, like your family members, like your friends, are hard working americans, and this is the information they're receiving. >> mika, what i'm perhaps most upset and concerned about just for the future of american democracy is all of the doubt about the integrity of the american election system. and so we're going to hear now from pittsburgh trump voters on their thoughts on 2020, and the integrity of that election, and then we're going to go and hear

where they are, where they stand on donald trump these days. >> who thought, let's just do a show of hands, who thought that the 2020 presidential election was legitimate and free and fair. >> we have never shut down elections in pennsylvania in the middle of the night and then did something different hours later. that has never happened. >> what did they do differently? >> votes changed in the shut down. >> and the counting stopped. >> how did the fraud happen? >> i don't know, why did they shut it all down? >> was it mail-in votes? >> i think that's the most likely place the problems could happen and in the last election, they counted those last and miraculously, the results completely inverted. >> republican primary, if we held it tomorrow in pennsylvania, who would you vote for? >> senate?

>> who would you be most excited, republican presidential primary, say tomorrow you would to go vote in a republican presidential primary in pennsylvania, who would you vote for? >> trump. >> trump. >> yeah, trump. >> i would like to see one of trump's kids run. >> desantis. >> i would vote for desantis. >> if desantis was a candidate, i would vote for him. >> would you vote for desantis over trump? >> yeah, i would. >> who would vote for desantis over trump at this point? >> i think i would. >> desantis is trump with brown hair. >> younger version. >> i think desantis has a bit more of a filter. >> which is a good thing. >> brown hair, no social media. >> i think he's a tough nice guy. >> and he's young too, so i don't know. >> i think his time is coming. i don't think it's right now. >> i think the democratic hatred isn't there for desantis that's

preexisting for trump. >> it will be. >> maybe, but they would have to ramp it up and they don't have that much time to do that. >> she's a great example. they turned you towards him. so we don't know how much that you represent the people out there. >> so you were a clinton, trump voter? >> yeah. >> and ended up being so passionate, you went on january 6th. >> well, because everything had changed, you know, like when clinton didn't win, i woke up in the morning, and i was fine, but it was like the rest of the world was acting like it was 9/11 for real, you know, and everybody has been completely obsessed with hatred for trump, and if you -- you can't walk down the street wearing a certain kind of hat because everyone will say you're asking for whatever happens to you, and how is that american? >> by the way, robert gibbs, it

is interesting, just listening to everybody here. it is interesting that desantis is getting some support and people are saying they want somebody a little more muted than donald trump. this isn't really too complicated about why people are believing what they're believing as far as stolen elections go because the guy that they looked up to almost in a personality cult type way knew he was going to lose to biden and so he started saying six months before the election that the election was rigged, that mail-in voting was rigged. that all of these states were going to be rigged, and we said on this show, three months, four months before the election that wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania should do their voting just like florida. just like ron desantis's florida, count the early votes when you have them, and we'll know by 10:00 or 11:00 at night,

who the winner is. we have now found out from steve bannon that trump and everybody else didn't want that to happen because they knew the day of votes that would be counted first would go in their direction. so this actually was all a plan by donald trump to be able to spread this type of doubt, and throw out these sort of conspiracy theories to these people, and robert, it was all very calculated an it worked. >> if you watch the clips, one of the things that strikes me the most, every time a question comes, several people have the same answer, right. there is a -- this is highly programmed. this is a communications apparatus that rivals anything that you would see around the globe. every charge, every accusation, every question has an answer, an excuse, a pivot to something different. it is fairly remarkable to watch

even after we sort of know exactly what you're about to see, it's still stunning to see it. >> david french, though, i will say in quiet, friend i talk to, people you talk to, whether it's in church, whether it's at baseball games in the community, when all the cameras are away, they will whisper, kind of like trumpism without trump, he tweets too much, he talks too much, he gets in his own way. so i wonder if the cameras were off, how many of those people would have supported ron desantis, only because there is an exhaustion even among our tribe, even among our tribe for donald trump and how he makes everything harder for republicans. >> yeah, you know, there's interesting, there's a lot of group dynamics going on here, and there's kind of a group intimidation effect that occurs. so when a group of trump

supporters get together. it becomes very hard to dissent from that, as soon as one does or two do, you start to see the dam break a little bit, and you can see daylight past trump, and i think, and maybe i'm wildly optimistic on this point, i think the trump grip is slowly slipping, and -- >> wow. >> i don't know if he knows this or if he perceives this, but i think it's slowly slipping. >> i don't see that in these focus groups. i see how strong the grip is. i wonder what your take away was from these conversations that elise had with pennsylvania voters? in some ways, the way they had, as david pointed out, the same answers and they would not accept any opposing viewpoint, they would take it further and further and further down the line, almost seeming programmed. your thoughts? >> the frightening thing is that

we are like, what, 15 days from an election and you have tens of hundreds of thousands of these people getting ready to vote that have no problem, these people went to the capitol to stop the certification of an election of an american presidency. i mean, beyond the fact that we're dealing with a snake oil salesman, donald trump, who has been able to get a cult following, the fact is this following is mainstream enough that we can see the outcome of the midterms tilted by people that are adamantly believing things that are totally false, have no concern about the process of democracy working, and a soft turnout in some areas on the democratic side. you know, i just came in late last night from georgia, so when i'm looking at there's not a lot

of energy in places we need it on the other side, but there is a lot of energy for the cult followers, people that have drunk the kool-aid on the other side, it makes me fear for the country. the more i watch elise's stuff, the more i get on my knees and pray. >> it's extraordinarily frightening, but i'm less concerned about their fielty to donald trump, and more concerned about their lack of interest in the truth. i don't see any daylight in that sense because it seems like wherever they are getting their information, and i think we kind of all know where they're getting it from in part, that lock, that hold that that apparatus has on the hearts and minds of some americans is only getting stronger. and so i just wonder -- i actually was wondering, elise, if you saw any room for hope in terms of how to combat that. maybe that is question for a

psychologist, and i don't actually say that facetiously. i mean it seriously, but how do you reach a group of americans who are completely untethered or uninterested in the truth, and what is it -- did you get any sense of what makes someone vulnerable to that kind of disinformation? >> it's crazy on the one hand because i think of my years during the iraq war and afghanistan war, and we were always talking about countering radical extremism. we have such hard core information ops going domestically that's so unhinged from reality. some of the conspiracy theories when you're traveling around the middle east, you know, this was a decade or so ago, i would just be like, how could they believe that, and then it's just all hit home. it's all really come home. and i think that talking, continue to go talk to each

other. i think the most disturbing part of this is that because we fight so much about politics, we just stop talking about it, and then people further go into their own distinct camps, and you know, it just -- what was your second part, sorry. >> i just wonder, you know. >> how do you -- >> it's probably going to be as successful as in iraq. >> you know, the susceptibility question, i think you look at the silent trump voters in 2016, the contrast between 2016 and doing, you know, over 50 of those focus groups all over the country, and then today, whereas in 2016, people who liked trump, they didn't necessarily want to yell it out, but then post election, they were enabled and empowered and realized other people shared their views, so there's no going back really.

so now, the victimization complex that donald trump, his martyr complex, they have been part of that. they see media outlets attacking them, looking down on them because they like donald trump, it's become an us versus them. you grew up in the south, and we always thought, everyone is looking down on us in the south, and it was more of a regional thing. this is an ideological divide. >> that is, david french, that really is. when people ask where trump came from, so much of it has to do with the fact, and we both say this as white southerners, and people can skew us all they want to, but we grew up in a culture where there were three tv networks. >> yeah. >> they were far left of center. there was "the new york times." there was "the washington post." left of center.

you had three channels that you could watch. you had stuff coming out of hollywood that everything seemed at least to those of us in the south to be mocking of people like us. when sarah palin was vice president -- when she had been selected as mccain's vice president, even "saturday night live" made fun of people that were going out to cover her in alaska, and there was this big divide, and i apologize, this is going to take a little while for me to get to where i'm going here, so there has been for a generation, for 40, 50 years, this feeling that for a lot of people that the elites have looked down on them, have mocked their faith, have mocked their beliefs, have mocked their way of life, and if you ever say that, they go, oh, you're just racist, you're just bigots, no

it's a little more subtle than that. and i will say this weekend i went to see some friends from high school, and people say, well, what can we do, i sat and talked to them. most of them, we love each other. but a lot of them were big donald trump fans, and would have fit really nicely in that group. yes, i had one come up and yell at me and say what happened to you. you know, and showed me a picture of me holding a reagan sign in '80. and i said, well, that guy is this guy. i'm really a boring guy. i'm saying pretty much the same thing i said back then, but the party and the world shifted. but then this person came up to me later, came up, apologized, hugged me and said, let's just talk about other things. we're good. and i said, listen, you don't understand me, i don't understand you. the one thing i just want you to

understand is we both have the same goal. we both love america and we both think america is under siege. let's figure out how to get there. i had another guy who came up to me, talking about his faith, and because he led with his faith, he said, you know what, i'm a big trump supporter, my wife and i really think he's great, but i want you to know, joe, we're proud of you, we pray for you every night, and we just have these differences, but we know that the important things to you are the important things to us. hugged each other, sat down, and we all talked for a while. david, i know you have these experiences all the time. we've got to figure out a way to sit down and talk and pray for those who don't love us, as jesus said in the sermon on the mount. you know, pray for those who persecute you. if you love only those who love

you, what good are you doing, even the heathen do that. i know that's an awful lot for a morning cable show. but instead of us just ringing our hands and banging our heads against the wall, actually, you know, the type of love jesus talks about in the sermon on the mount, that's a pretty good place to start. i know it's hard for people to do in this environment, but i don't see another way forward. >> yeah, you're so right, joe, i mean, elise had a great insight there, which is that a lot of trump supporters believe that when you're taking on trump, you're taking on them. that when you're attacking trump, you're attacking them. and that when trump -- and there's this instinctive, protective sort of sense, that is surrounding trump where a lot of trump supporters are saying defending trump is defending me

and when they're attacking trump, it is attacking me. this psychological bond that got cemented after he surprisingly beat hillary clinton is something that a lot of people fundamentally don't realize and so i think that one of the ways through this is for people to understand that by criticizing donald trump, you're not actually criticizing them. and by saying that donald trump did something wrong, you're not actually attacking them personally or looking down on them personally. and trying to pull apart the regard that you have for your neighbors and the respect and affection that you have for your neighbors pulling that apart from the feelings that you have about donald trump's actions and what donald trump has done, and then the other thing here that is just throwing a monkey wrench into a lot of this analysis is we have to deal with the issue of prophesy. we have to deal with the issue that an awful lot of folks are actually under the belief that donald trump has a special divine anointing to save the

united states of america, i run into this a lot, based on prophesies that they have seen online, or prophesies that they have heard in church, and they're deeply influenced to the point where their christian walk, part of their christian walk is seen as supporting donald trump, and that gets even much more difficult to untangle, and we have to be able to untangle criticizing donald trump the person from the idea that by criticizing trump, you're attacking the individuals who supported them. and we have to be able to pull that apart somehow. >> yeah, and david, or robert gibbs, let's go from the spiritual to the secular for a second because that's where elections are fought and won. you understand what david and i are talking about because you grew up in auburn, alabama, and you've seen it firsthand, so you had a foot in both worlds at the highest level of political order with communications, what are your thoughts as you hear the

focus groups, and how do we get from where we are right now to where we can at least start having a conversation based on a common reality? >> yeah, it's a great question, and i'm not sure i have a great answer for it. i mean, like you, joe, i've got friends who are donald trump supporters, who believe, as david said, in sort of his power. i think it's startling to hear it said over and over again. i think, look, part of it is democrats have to get back to trying to talk to voters in these areas about values and issues they're concerned about. i see it in a place on the front page of the papers this morning, tim ryan in a place like ohio is out there in distressed communities talking about jobs, talking about manufacturing, talking about putting people back to work, competing with china. i think in some ways it's got to

be issue-based, and it also has to be value-based. it has to be not elitist. it has to be this idea that there's room for faith and politics inside of our country, and that those aren't competing values. >> robert gibbs, david french and amara guy, thank you all very much. incredible conversation. >> and still ahead on "morning joe," bob woodward will be our guest following release of unedited tapes of his conversation with former president donald trump. while the journalist is calling trump quote a threat to democracy. >> and a look at five key senate rates flying under the radar right now, and how they could play a major role in control of congress. and up next, one of the most outspoken voices in sports, jemele hill joins the conversation next on "morning joe." l joins the conversation next on "morning joe.

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and save at trelegy.com. . welcome back to "morning joe." it is 41 past the hour. joining us now contributing writer for the atlantic, jemele hill. she's the author of the new book entitled "up hill," a memoir. we're going to get to that in just a moment. first we want to read from your recent article from the atlantic entitled, "herschel walker's candidacy is just insulting" writing in part this, under different circumstances, a senate race in the deep south between two black candidates would be something to celebrate, but walker is so unqualified that the georgia contest has become cringe worthy. in theory, georgia conservatives embrace of a black senate hopeful should be a sign of progress. instead, walker's candidacy is

extraordinarily uncomfortable for me to watch because, while bolstering his political standing by repeating right wing stereotypes about irresponsible black fathers, he plays right into those same stereotypes. walker's disturbing history in no way reflects on other black men, but i can't help sensing some condescension in republicans' elevation of such a buffoonish candidate. does walker embody what they think black men really are. do they think black voters in georgia are so gullible and hungry for representation that they would willingly over walker's obvious incompetence. >> and yet he is tied with the pastor from martin luther king jr.'s church. >> is that about republicans or also voters. >> i mean, it's just staggering. his own children say that he's

abandoned them. he hasn't denied that he put a gun up to a wife's head. he pretended that a woman who said that he had her do an abortion, and then tried to get her to do another abortion, said she didn't exist, and court records showed she did. we could go on and on all morning. he's tied with warnock. >> that's where we are in america, people are so dug in that they don't even see past what used to be obvious disqualifications for candidates. this is not the bug, this is the feature. as long as he gets up there and says the things they want him to say and he makes some people voting for him feel comfortable about their own racism, then it's fine, and it's really sad to see because, you know, herschel walker understandably a football legend, but when you just hear him talk, there is a very obvious incompetence there. i'm not fully sure that he even

understands how government works. and so to see them put forth this kind of candidate, it just feels very insulting and it feels like a back handed slap at what this party believes is a representation of black people. you know, and so there's a lot going on here, but he could, at this point, where we are in the country, you could pretty much put on a clown suit, show up as a republican, and get 46, 47% of the vote just because of the way people are latching on to what they feel like is the last stand and, you know, a part of the american ideal. this is what this party has been able to do and what they have been able to unearth. >> you know, i think the premise of the article about it being insulting, certainly i agree with, but i think that the insult is when donald trump -- i

knew donald trump from the '80s and donald trump for a while was involved in boxing, at the atlantic city convention center. he worked with don king. and it was almost to me what donald trump, who was the one that suggested herschel said, oh, we have a black senator, throw a black guy in there, herschel, it was almost like that. i don't think they vetted him. >> like he was randomly pick, throwing a dart. >> here's my guy. >> and as he began to become exposed as being all of this that joe just raised, it doesn't matter. we're throwing a black guy in the ring with a black guy. that's how trump thinks. the insults started with trump. what is scary is that people are buying into it. clarence thomas, i disagree with just about everything he's ever uttered, but clarence thomas does have a background and understanding of law, i don't think herschel knows the difference between the house of representatives and the u.s. senate, and the fact that they would throw him in there is an insult to all of us that fought

and continue to fight to open doors for blacks. we should be celebrating two black men running against each other with political ideas, rather than being ashamed every time he opens his mouth. we say, oh, my god, what is he going to say now. >> and that's a great point, because to follow along with what you said, the late herman cane, i didn't agree with anything he said, but i felt like he was competent, he understood what government was. many black conservatives have fit into that mold, okay, i may not agree with them, but i feel like they're qualified for the position. he's not qualified. and despite this rise that he's had, i think if you get a lot of these people isolated that are supporting him and say, do you honestly think that this is the most qualified person that you have to be the senator of a state, of a state like georgia where you have millions of people's lives in your hand, you think this is the best option.

they'd be lying if they said that this was the best option in georgia. and it's just amazing this picture they've tried to paint on the opposite end of reverend rafael warnock being elitist and all of these other things, this is a southern guy, a preacher of all things, like, what is it -- >> and was an activist to start. >> an activist, somebody whose track record speaks for itself, and where we are in politics right now is almost like the things that are supposed to work for you, that you thought would work for you, work against you, the more education you have, that's actually a bad thing. the fact that you went to a certain school, the fact that you carry yourself a certain way, they have been able to brand those things to be negative, and i just think it just speaks to the toxicity of our politics today. >> it really does. i would love to ask you about the book "uphill," you know, one of the things that you address is how the last administration, president trump white house tried to get you fired and how

you received death threats and all sorts of negative attention after saying something that was speaking truth to power. but talk about the book, if you could, and how your background, in a way, and a lot of the challenge that you faced very early on in life prepared you for tough moments? >> yeah, it's interesting because a question i was often asked as i was going through the controversy after saying what i said about donald trump, about him being a white supremacist, everybody around me was sort of freaking out, like, oh, do you know what this means, and the target that is now on your back, and i certainly understood that, yes, it put a particular target on my back, especially once the white house addressed these comments, but when i think about the scope of my life and everything i've been through, donald trump coming after me, the white house coming after me, former press secretary sarah huckabee sanders saying i deserve to be fired, it wouldn't

even rank in the top 20 of worst things that i have experienced, or that have happened to me or some of my worst moments or most trying moments that i've had to, you know, really go through and experience. i mean, i'm the child of two recovering addicts, you know, i grew up in detroit in the blanket of poverty, i experienced a lot of other things, and that's really the bulk of what "uphill" is about. it's a story of perseverance, of triumph and what i have said to people in terms of what i want them to take away from it is that your circumstances do not dictate the life that you imagine for yourself, and mine never did, and so i'm here as i. mine never did. i'm an example of what can be unearthed from a lot of pain and struggle. there's purpose still even within those tough moments. so, such as people may know me from being the woman on espn that donald trump attacked, there's so much more to my life than that.

and i said at that time that if that is the leading sentence in my obituary, i have failed, that if it has anything to do with donald trump. >> jemele, congrats on the book. certainly excited to read it. a remarkable story. how do you assess right now the intersection of sports and politics? obviously, we just talked about donald trump. he took aim at colin kaepernick, the idea of kneeling for the national anthem was out there for a long time, one that's faileded. the nfl seems more popular than ever. where do you stand between those two worlds that so often intersect? >> those worlds have always collided and been intertwined. when we went through this period that there was this false idea that they never did, it was mostly based off who was saying it, what feelings they were invoking. using colin as an example is perfect. i should mention i'm actually the executive producer on his

documentary that will be coming out on espn, a part of their "30 for 30" series, so i've been able to sit down with him numerous times and talk about his story and what that meant. but, listen, you know, sports in many ways has been ahead of where the rest of the country is. we have to remember when jackie robinson integrated major league baseball in 1947. that was a full 20 years before we got the civil rights act and the voting rights act. we have seen sports really be an opportunity for people to maybe hear different viewpoints or maybe understand politics in a different way because we're a very segregated country still. we don't worship together. a lot of us stay in our particular groups. you know, when we socialize, where we work. but the one thing that brings us all together is sports, because you could have a bunch of people from different socioeconomic backgrounds, different races, genders, it doesn't matter, but if you guys all love the lakers,

that's thing that brings you together. maybe in that way when lebron makes a political statement, you might hear it differently because it's coming from an athlete that you already admire and are a fan of. >> the new book is "uphill: a memoir." jemele hill, thank you very much for coming on. congratulations for the book. coming up, "the washington post's" bob woodward is joining us to talk about the tapes that he released, the audiotapes of his interviews with president donald trump. for people living with h-i-v, keep being you. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex.

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off the fake, he's going to let one fly. oh, he's got one wide open! it is tyler boyd! second and 13. intercepted! picked off by andrew adams! and he's going to go the distance! >> sets up, looking -- it is

caught! >> walker fires. caught! touchdown! >> second down, going deep. did he catch it? a giants touchdown! >> they're right back in this thing. >> the snapper. they'll go to the run game. look at the speed of reese hall! he's done it again! greased lightning! 62 yards for the touchdown! >> walker on first down. gets the edge. walker down the sideline. he's got the speed. walker chugging down the sideline! can he outrace michael davis? he can! 74 yards! >> blitz coming. picked up. wide open. juju smith-schuster. one man to beat.

trying to get to the end zone. he will for the touchdown! >> there's a look at some of the biggest touchdowns from teams who won yesterday in week seven of the nfl. jonathan lemire, i've got to say, between the giants and the jets, here we are, we're coming up on november. those two teams together i had to add this up because i couldn't believe my eyes, have a combined record of 11-3. the giants just finding ways to win. same thing with the jets. unbelievable. and you have an undefeated philadelphia eagles team. >> yeah. new york sports fans, now that the yankees around mets are done, can turn their attention to football. the giants, remarkable. this is on talent level not one of the better teams in the league. >> no. >> but they keep finding ways to win. the rookie head coach a great job. they won yesterday at the 1 yard line as time expired. eagles and of course phillies. and, joe, things have not gone quite as well for some of the

league's top quarterbacks. aaron rodgers and tom brady both really struggling. their teams are under .500 seven weeks into the season in what has been a very weird nfl year so far. >> what about tom brady? i mean, it's just dismal in tampa bay. they lost to a team that was i think 1-5 going in. i mean, brady coming back -- and completely serious here -- i mean, the decision is looking worse every single week. i'm not so sure -- >> didn't see that coming. >> i'm not so sure he shouldn't just pull up the stakes and go home right now. >> that's a panthers team that traded its star running back two days prior, on its third-string quarterback and still won. the buccaneers didn't put up a touchdown, the first time a brady-led offense had not done that in a very long time. 21-3. his stats are still pretty good, better than rodgers, but something is off. they're not playing well, haven't put up points. there's a lot of off-field

drama, questioning about brady and the state of his marriage. but it looks like it could be a tough final season. his first two years in tampa, they were great. won a super bowl, a terrific year last year, mvp-type season, you know, played well in their playoff loss. looks like he should have walked away then. but he's also tom brady, so i refuse to count him out just yet. >> in sunday night's game last night, the miami dolphins quarterback tua tagovailoa got the dolphins up to a fast start in his return from a concussion. and he helped miami to a three-point lead at the break. that would be all the scoring for either team for the rest of the game. the dolphins ended up beating the steelers 16-10 after a scoreless second half. and the world series is set. the philadelphia phillies, what a team, what a playoff team, they wramwrapped up the nlcs ine games yesterday eliminating the san diego padres with a 4-3 win.

bryce harper, fifth homer of the postseason, go-ahead, two-run shot, in the rainy eighth inning, powering the phillies to the world series for the first time since 2009. it's really hard to overstate how dramatic this shot is. maybe it's not kirk gibson's home run, because he could actually jog around the bases, bryce harper could, and also it was to get them to the world series, but, man, i would put this up with ortiz and what he did with detroit -- against the detroit tigers back in '13. just an incredible moment, giving the phillies a trip to the world series. they'll take on the houston astros. the astros are just so hot. what a tough team. they completed a four-game sweep of the new york yankees in the american league championship series overcoming an early 3-0 deficit last night to stay perfect -- let me say that

again -- perfect in the postseason. yankees starter nester cortez pitched two strong innings before exiting with an injury in the third and after giving up a game-tying three-run homer hit off of rookie -- hit by rookie shortstop jeremy pena. houston the lead in the seventh, edging new york 6-5, going to the world series for the fourth time in the last six years. game one on friday in houston. and for all of you new york yankees fans out there, this is my gift to you this week. i'm not going to jonathan lemire for his comments. mika? >> please don't. it is three minutes past the top of the hour now on this monday, october 24th. jonathan lemire, elise jordan, and reverend sharpton are with us. just ahead, we are learning some of the papers from

mar-a-lago had highly classified information on the countries of china and iran. but first, with just over two weeks to go until the midterms, we're looking at five races that could be big wild cards coming up election day. that's coming up in just a moment. now new polling that shows voters are more engaged than they've ever been for their party. nbc news correspondent josh letterman has details. >> reporter: as candidated crisscrossed their states -- >> you need someone who will stand up and fight for democracy. >> reporter: -- americans are more fired up for these midterms than ever. the new nbc news poll revealing 70% of registered voters say they're highly interested in the election, the largest percentage ever recorded at this point before the vote, suggesting turnout in november could be sky-high. but on enthusiasm, republicans have the edge and their advantage is growing.

>> you're going to vote for an incredible slate of true america first republicans up and down the ballot. >> reporter: voters continuing to rank the cost of living, jobs, and threats to democracy among their top concerns. but the poll shows voters still deeply pessimistic about the economy, just 1 in 5 predicting it will get better in the next year. >> a job, pay for my own or rent. >> we know that without democracy we won't have the ability to work where we want to work. as important as those table issues are, without democracy, none of that counts. >> reporter: this year, voters from both parties putting winning ahead of everything else. the polls showing two-thirds of reliable democratic and republican voters saying they'd vote for their party's candidate even if they had a moral failing inconsistent with their own values. with president biden's approval rating holding steady at 45%, democrats facing new challenges

in the races' final weeks. mr. biden's signature student loan relief plan put on hold by a court while border authorities say 2.8 million migrants crossed the border illegally this past year, breaking the previous record by a million. >> so, reverend al, you have more people interested than ever before in these midterm elections, and yet it doesn't seem to be, if you believe these numbers, the biggest gap seems to be in voter enthusiasm with republicans a lot more enthusiastic about getting out to vote than democrats. why? >> i think that the reason we're seeing that is because, again, some of us -- i started to say many, but not many -- some of us have been saying to the democrats, you've got to talk about uncomfortable things that are really concerning and that are very important to the base of voters that you want to come out and vote. so, yes, we've got to talk about

voting rights and democracy, but we also have to deal with crime. i had people in churches in atlanta yesterday say to me, i'm so glad that you have a balanced message here because i'm afraid of both. i think a lot of democrats in the leadership are listening to a noise factor of saying don't do this, don't do that rather than listening to the voters. when you see a gap like that in enthusiasm, when you have so much at risk, then you have to stop and say that our messaging is off and you have to start talking to the people that you want to lead. you can't lead people that you never talk to and understand what they need leadership for. >> president biden is reiterating his plans to run for re-election but says he has not made a formal decision. in an exclusive interview with msnbc's jonathan capehart last

week, the president touched on issues including his political future. polls show that voters disapprove of his handling of the economy and next month's midterm elections. >> the reason i'm not making a judgment about formally running and not running, once i make that judgment, a whole series of regulations kick in and i have to be -- treat myself as a candidate from that moment on. i have not made a formal decision, but it's my intention, my intention to run again. and we have time to make that decision. i'm not sure about the polls, because the way people conduct polls today, 90% of it is you get on a telephone where you have to call seven times to get somebody to answer the phone, number one. number two, a lot of what we've done in the past has not kicked in yet. for example, you know, we have all this money to rebuild the highways, bridges, internet, et cetera, but it's going to

take time. i think that this is not a referendum, this is a choice, a choice between what kind of country you want -- republicans have made it clear, first thing they want to do is a lot of -- most of them voted against the bill to reconstruct america through the infrastructure bill, highways, roads, and, you know, they all voted against to a person, vote against the inflation reduction act. they don't have a platform other than tear down what i've been able to do. >> so, jonathan lemire, wanted to ask you about your take-away from the biden interview with jonathan capehart. he was asked if the first lady supported his run, and he paused. any response on that entire interview? any response from the white house on what "the washington post" and others were writing about? >> certainly that has attracted

some attention over the weekend. what i have heard is that the first lady has warmed somewhat to a run. first of all, the president is right. if you were to declare all these campaign finance regulations would kick in. it is not to his advantage to say he is running right now. no president does that anyway until the first midterms are over. i'm told he and his family will have a series of discussions over the holiday. they'll talk it over over christmas and it will probably be the first quarter of next year when they make that decision. the white house is doing everything you do to run again. they are gearing up as if he's going to run again. the president says he plans to run again. but there are a few factors here. he is turning 80 in just a few weeks. that's a concern to some democrats. we have to see what happens in the midterms. do democrats lose one or both houses of congress? what sort of investigations will republicans run, particularly around hunter biden, which of course is something the president is very sensitive about? and there's the donald trump factor, because the end of the

day, people close to the president tell me on a near daily basis, if donald trump is running for president again, almost certainly joe biden is, too, because he feels like the one man who could beat him before in 2020 and the one man who could beat him again and the one person, biden, who thinks all that stands between trump and a trump presidency, which would be a true threat to our democracy. >> before you write that off, think about who else. joining us, national political correspondent for "the washington post," ashley parker, out with "inside the successes, missteps, and failures of biden's early presidency." ashley, good to have you on this morning. so, i guess take us through -- there's a lot of legislative wins, and yet still -- and i'm not sure who the other options are to run against donald trump if he were to run, and yet still it's big conversation, whether or not joe biden should run

again. >> that's exactly right. in this story, i did with two colleagues over a number of weeks, we talked to more than 80 people, cabinet officials, senior white house officials, former white house officials, aides, democratic operatives to do an analysis of the biden presidency so far, to understand where we got -- how we got to this place. and you're absolutely right. there are, when you lay them out as we did, there's a ton of legislative wins. and not just legislative wins but legislative wins that have been on democratic wish lists in some cases for decades, climate change, prescription drugs, bipartisan gun legislation, you know, semiconductor bill, helping veterans with burn pits, the covid relief bill. what he did legislatively with sort of tissue-thin margins in congress is very impressive. the biden people were quick to compare him to lbj and fdr, and

they did a lot. but what we also found were a number of missteps, some of them bad luck, some of them the result of poor decisionmaking that really start when you look at his presidency, look at last august with the twin crises of the afghanistan withdrawal and how that played out and the emergence of the delta variant, which is, of course, just the first of now we know a number of new contagious covid variants to hit this nation. that's where he takes the first hit. again, some of these things are out of his control, but a through line, a challenge is that the president and his aides really mismangled expectations, and some of this stuff came down to messaging, seemingly not to understand what americans, for instance, were going through on their inflation, their decision to repeatedly call it transitory when nothing feels transitory about going to the grocery store and milk and eggs cost a lot more money. that's where we left things.

but as john said, it looks like as of now, at least, the president is making plans to run, and if former president donald trump does declare, as many people expect that he will, that is just going to push president biden to run again. >> yeah. and at this point you have to wonder if he chooses not to run again, what are the options? >> yeah. those are the questions. but that said, you know, reverend al, if you looked at where the biden presidency was six months ago legislatively and compare it to where it is now, it's really -- it's really a tale of two presidencies. i mean, there have been some bipartisan pieces of legislation that have gone through and also, of course, the reconciliation bill went through and some other things he's done on his own. he actually does have probably

the best legislative record of any president maybe since -- maybe since bill clinton. >> i think there's no question that joe biden has done better as president than even those of us who were supportive of him in a broad sense thought he would do, the legislation he got through given the narrow lead they have in the senate and in the house, something that reminds you back to lyndon johnson, even into the civil rights area, where we debt the george floyd bill and the john louis bill. he was able to do an executive order. i think he's above expectations with many of us. but the question i would ask, is part of the problem that his team is not communicating that effectively enough to the american public? because when i read your article, i think you're right about a lot of his

accomplishments, achievements, a lot of his successes. but i don't know if that is getting down to the ground where the goats eat. and is it that the president is not fail bug the team around the president may be failing his presidency in terms of messaging? >> well, that is one of the things we found is that one of the challenges was messaging, it was managing expectations, it was selling his agenda, and the sucesses to the public. this is a president himself who has struggled to seize the bully pulpit, and his team, and i will say one thing that was fascinating that emerged is a lot of these legislative wins, as you guys were talking about, really came sort of the spring into the summer. when you talked to the white house, and joe knows better than anyone, legislation is not always a linear process. it's tricky, you to do it when

you get the votes. way the white house explains it, and they're not necessarily wrong in the practical reality, is they had to get house progressives to pass, for instance, an infrastructure bill many months ago in order to get senator joe manchin months later to get on board for reconciliation and climate. so, when they look at it, they say this is an incredible narrative arc where they managed to hold together both wings of a pretty fractious party where they don't have a ton of a majority. so that's accurate. but what voters see, because of how it plays out, is they see months of democratic infighting where they can't get anything done, and voters might not necessarily see how a vote in the fall is tied to a big legislative success in the summer. >> it's so interesting, joe, because the other disconnect that i see, waze saw in the polls, that both sides are interested in preserving democracy, maybe different reasons to get there. >> right. >> another thing the president has been very successful on is ukraine.

>> mm-hmm. >> and there's no line being drawn at the importance of what is happening in ukraine, and, you know, the slow walk toward a democracy that a lot of countries are going through and the preservation of our own. it just doesn't resonate or it's a question that isn't asked in these polls. >> right now i know people are concerned primarily about the economy, about inflation. >> i know. >> they're concerned about crime. crime rates very low on the nbc poll. you talk to -- and the focus group at least in places like pennsylvania and wisconsin, crime is actually top of mind for a lot of voters, including, as reverend al says, black voters. >> yeah. >> yet we get all these patronizing lectures. back to you, reverend, all these patronizing lectures from progressives saying why are you talking about crime and why are you talking about the economy? the economy is better than ever before with the jobless rate,

and crime, again, the old marion berry story, if you take up violent e crime like rapes and murders, take that out of the equation, all other crimes are down. well, for the people we talk to in philadelphia, for the people you talk to in churches, people aren't taking that out of their life and they care about crime, they care about inflation, and they care about that a lot more, whether we like it or not, than ukraine, january 6th, and threats to democracy. >> i remember in the 1980s when crack became a real epidemic and some of us went out and exposing where the crack houses were. i was painting red xs there. a lot of the core progressives at that time say don't deal with that, you shouldn't be talking about crime. joe, it is a soft racism to act like blacks should sit there and accept being victims of crime. it is soft racism. it is insulting to say to us

it's normal for you to have that in your community, it is not normal. we should have the same level of protection and be taken seriously as crime victims as anybody else in this country, and at the same time we can deal with police reform and voting. but don't act like it's normal for me to live with people shoving people in front of subways in my neighborhood. >> there you go. senior national political correspondent for "the washington post," ashley parker, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. and with two weeks to go until the midterms, you've got no doubt which states are getting the biggest attention from the different parties -- pennsylvania, georgia, arizona, wisconsin among those getting the most coverage. but there are a handful of other senate races that might be flying under the radar. nbc news senior national political reporter sahil kapur has taken a closer look at five senate contests that could be

wild cards. >> this is so important, sahil, because on wave nights -- and we never know which way the wave is going to go. certainly, the trends are going the republicans' way, but they could go the democrats' way as well. it's always, when off wave night, the least tier of race where is people go, oh, my gosh, i didn't even know that race was going to be competitive. sure enough, you see one or two or three of these races that nobody even looked at that actually are critical. >> start with utah. >> yeah. >> reporter: we are 15 days out. we've talked about the big races and ticket splitters in those races, potential spoilers of the third-party candidates, but there are five races that are slimmers that are not getting as much attention but which

forecasters say are closer than the conventional wisdom suggests or tightening. utah is the first one. you see the candidates. this is unlike any other major senate race in the country in the sense that democrats decided not to put up a candidate and threw their support to the conservative independent mcmullin. just four points behind the republican mike lee. mcmullin has tried to make this a referendum on who the honest conservative is. he's taken aim at mike lee for his transformation from an anti-trumper back in 2016 to a solid trump ally, shined the light on his text messages after the 2020 election and the lead-up to the january 6th attack, suggesting that lee was interested in trying to overturn the election. lee has denied this, but lee is sounding concerned. he is going on conservative radio saying this race is not put away, please help me. he has the advantage but it's fun to watch. >> another wild card, colorado.

>> that's right. this is one where senator michael bennet is clearly favored. this is a state that has trended blue. but republicans got an unexpectedly strong candidate in joe o'dea. he supports the aca, opposes donald trump. he said he'd be the republican joe manchin if elected. trump has gone after him. trump doesn't like people in the party who against him and he's trashed o'dea. but more recently, o'dea is getting air cover from ron desantis, the florida governor. that's interesting. if there ever was the type of republican candidate who could win a state like colorado, might require it to be a red year, but this is one to watch. joe o'dea is not out yet. >> how about north carolina and iowa? >> north carolina is a race that forecasters say is closer than the conventional wisdom suggests. the polling averages show a two to three-point race. this is a state that's tended to vote republican but very narrowly.

this is one between ted bud, a congressman in the u.s. house of representatives, and cheri beasley, a former north carolina supreme court justice. she's kept this close. she has given some democrats hope if it ends up being a better night than expected she could pull this off. now to iowa, chuck grassley is heavily favored here. he is 89 years old, however, and running for another six-year term. he has served in the u.s. senate for 42 years. he's served in public office for 63 years, going all the way back to the eisenhower administration. i bring this up, guys, because a recent selzer poll by ann selzer, the gold standard in iowa, found grassley's lead is merely three points against mike franken. that is an eye-popping number and suggests that something is going on in this race. i dug through the internals of the poll. i was shocked to see that chuck grassley is only three points ahead. 60% of likely voters in iowa said his age was a concern. that might be catching up with

him. forecasters also say his opponent is running a competent campaign in that state. >> finally, washington state. >> reporter: this is the white whale for the republicans. they are going after patty murray, the third-ranked democrat in the u.s. senate, the chair of the senate health committee. washington state is known as a blue state for good reason. it has a long streak of voting for democrats. but it can fluctuate quite dramatically. murray had won some of her elections going away by a huge margin. she's come within five point in the other elections such as 2010 from losing. the republican candidate is tiffany smyly, fighting on crime, trying to make it a referendum, but murray is portraying her as a danger to abortion rights, talk about how she wants another term to protect other than biden's

accomplishments like infrastructure in the u.s. congress. this one also certainly might require a red wave for republicans to pull it off but i wouldn't count it out just yet. >> sahil kapur, thank you so much for taking us through the wild-card states. still ahead on "morning joe," more on the nbc news poll that shows just how fired up voters are for this year's midterm election. steven kornacki will take his place at the big board. plus, trump in his own words. bob woodward joins was his new audiobook featuring over a dozen interviews with the former president. we'll talk about why he made this unprecedented move the release those interviews. and later, a new poll shows latinos backing ron desantis by a wide margin in florida. we'll break down why. trelegy for copd. [coughing] ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪

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two weeks away from the midterm elections, new polling shows voter enthusiasm is at an all-time high. in the latest nbc news survey, 70% of voters say they are very interested in casting their ballots next month. that is the highest that number has ever been for a midterm election poll at this point. as for why that is, about 80% of voters from both parties say the opposition poses a major threat that, if not stopped, could destroy america as we know it. both sides believe this. that belief is so strong that about two-thirds of democrats and republicans say they are willing to vote for their party's candidate even if that person had a moral failing in their personal lif that goes against their own values. >> nbc news political correspondent steven kornacki at the big board. we're seeing that playing out. we're going to get into the

polls and how heated things are. i will say we are seeing in a few states the prospects of possible ticket splitting. look at georgia, where kemp is doing much better than herschel walker. he's walking away with it right now, it seems at least now in poms three weeks out, two weeks out, and the same thing in philadelphia, in pennsylvania, where you have dr. oz, who's made it a really tight race, he could end up winning, while josh shapiro, a democrat, looks like he's on his way to becoming the next governor of pennsylvania. >> yeah. different dynamics. arizona, kari lake, who's echoed everything donald trump has said about the 2020 election and was thought i think by conventional wisdom to be the weakest candidate republicans could put up for governor, leading in the gubernatorial polling out there. in the senate race, mark kelly, the incumbent, continues to

lead, so there's the potential of a ticket split of a different type in arizona this year. >> we did actually see this happen in 2020. i think in the most dramatic sense possible at least in our times. joe biden won maine by nine points. susan collins, who many people thought, i thought, was going to lose that seat because of kavanagh and because of fund raisers with the federalist society, the sort of things she'd run against her entire career there, i thought she was going to lose. she ended up winning by nine points, a whopping 18-point swing in maine, which shows that is still possible. and it could happen here. but what races are you -- let's go through the poll from yesterday, fascinating as always, and just the interplay between biden's approval rating, which still is holding up pretty well, but this race where republicans seem really

enthusiastic. >> yeah. i think that was one of the biggest numbers that jumped out. let's go through all of them. when you ask the generic ballot question or new nbc poll with registered voters, that's the only criteria for being included in this question here, democrats have a lead of one point. we've had -- you know, all year the nbc poll has been measuring registered voters without big swings. for the first time we applied a likely voter screen to this as well, trying to figure out based on people saying what their enthusiasm level is, based on how much they participate in the past midterm elections, who the likely voters are, and there are flips. republicans take a one-point lead on a likely voter model over democrats. in terms of the top issue here, there's sort of a combination, if you combine jobs and the cost of living or inflation, we ask them separately, but for simplicity's sake, we combine

them here, a little more than a third of voters citing economy or inflation is their top issue. republicans among this group of voters with an overwhelming lead. republicans also with an overwhelming m number on crime. democrats putting up their biggest numbers. those who cite threats to democracy as their top issue, those citing abortion as their top motivating issue. that's where democrats have strength in the poll. biden's approval rating is 45%. i mean, the economy, though, is a little lower and i think more significantly on the economy fully 50% of the electorate as they expect the economy to get worse over the next 12 months. there is this sort of cloud of economic pessimism that's hanging over the year. and then this question of interest that you talked about. overall 70% of voters rating themselves with the highest level of interest in these midterm elections, highest we've ever measured, that number at

this point. >> wow. >> here's what's changed in the poll between the last one, the gap between the democrats and republicans, 78% of republicans put themselves in the highest category, only 69% of democrats. just go back in time to our last couple polls here and you can see that gap between republicans and democrats was a lot narrower. this was the story of the summer. this was the story following the supreme court decision to overturn roe. you saw democrats pretty much erase the enthusiasm gap republicans had. now that enthusiasm gap is creeping back into the picture, and i think what i showed you earlier, that disconnect between registered voters and the likely voters, that's what this is getting at. so to the extent this becomes a dynamic and this becomes a factor in the final two weeks and one day in this campaign, that's an opportunity for republicans. coming up, liz cheney is tired of hearing from donald trump unless he is testifying under oat about january 6th. the latest on her committee's

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california, if you're living with hiv, keep loving who you are. mountains, oceans, natural wonders, diverse and creative people. but when the out-of-state corporations behind prop 27 look at california, they see nothing but suckers. they wrote prop 27 to give themselves 90% of the profits from online sports betting in california. other states get much more. why is prop 27 such a suckers deal for california? because the corporations didn't write it for us. they wrote it for themselves.

so, the committee treats this matter with great seriousness, and we are going to proceed in terms of the questioning of the former president under oath. it may take multiple days. and it will be done with a level of rigor and discipline and seriousness that it deserves. we are not going to allow the former president -- he's not going to turn this into a circus. this isn't going to be, you know, his first debate against joe biden and the circus and the food fight that became. this is far too serious a set of issues. >> well, i mean, it's not going to be the first debate with joe biden, jonathan lemire, unless he's really weeded out. >> oh, my god. >> professional wrestler. sweating. >> do you think he had covid or

something? >> he was roided out at one point, started yelling at the podium, are you talking to me, are you talking to me? he was out of his mind. one of the craziest performances in history. >> i'm walking here! he did one of those. trump of course it later came out, we heard from mark meadows, that he had covid at the time of that first debate. certainly he was sweaty and loud. at one point, joe biden literally said, "shut up, man." so hopefully we won't get a repeat of that for his hearing. >> people around the country don't think he'll actually show up. >> american democracy is strong. >> that was vice chair of the january 6th committee, liz cheney, on whether the panel is open to live testimony from the former president. >> you'll notice, she did not say what nancy pelosi said. >> no, that he wasn't man enough to show up. >> she said that kind of twice, i think he's man enough to show

up. >> we saw it twice. >> yeah. twice. >> the problem is she was emphasizing that point. >> well, exactly. on friday, the january 6th committee officially issued a subpoena to former president donald trump demanding he turn over a number of documents related to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election by november 4th. the committee also wants any communications he had with extremist groups who were involved in the capitol attack. lawmakers ordered trump to testify under oath on november 14th either in person at the capitol or by video conference. >> let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. ken, there's not much of a chance that, if this goes to the supreme court, they'll make him testify, is there? >> good morning, joe. it's a real interesting question. you know, obviously, this congress doesn't have very much longer to run and this committee is wrapping up.

i'm trying to understand what the play is. they set a tight deadline of early november for trump to come over. do they then try and hold him in contempt of congress and refer that over to the justice department and see whether the justice department will act quickly? because as we've seen with steve bannon, you can't just refuse to show up, necessarily. a former president has perhaps his own special claims, but former presidents have testified before congress. it's never been decided, though, what happens when a former president resists a congressional subpoena. so we'll have to see. but one thing that's clear is that this subpoena was written almost like an indictment. i mean, it summed up the case that the january 6th committee has made, arguing that donald trump orchestrated a corrupt scheme to try to overturn the election that broke the law in many respects, and the subpoena also suggested that they have information that trump is communicating with encrypted apps, which i found interesting, because this is a man that we

all know never uses email, doesn't write anything down. if they have to believe he's texting with people on signal, if they have one end of those conversations, that would be really, really interesting. >> ken, this is fascinating reporting. can you explain to laymen who don't understand what a subpoena is kind of what power the committee has to, if any, to compel the president to testify and what this really actually means in just layman's speech? >> yeah. it's a great question. this is not like a subpoena from a federal grand jury. it's a congressional subpoena, and so they have very limited power. they don't have their own police force to go arrest donald trump and bring him to congress. i think that used to exist back in the day, but that doesn't happen anymore. so their only real option here is they could go to court civilly to try to enforce, to get the courts to order donald trump to appear, or they could, as they did with steve bannon

and peter navarro and mark meadows, congress would have to hold him in contempt then send a contempt citation to the justice department and ask the u.s. attorney in washington tone force the subpoena. and if he refuses, as steve bannon did, then there's a criminal trial. so you can see how long that would take. so it's pretty clear the clock is running out on this congress and, you know, it seems probably that this subpoena is unenforceable. coming up, how china's leader is ruling with near absolute authority. xi jinping just locked up another term in office and controls that country with an iron grip. we'll have the latest from beijing straight ahead on "morning joe."

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according to seoul's military, south korea's navy fired warning shots after a merchant ship violated the disputed boundary lines. north korea responded by firing its own warning of shots. this comes amid simmering tensions with north korea launching missiles at an unprecedented pace so far this year. joining us from beijing, nbc news foreign correspondent janis mackey frayer. what can you tell us? >> reporter: this area is the western boundary area, very clearly marked and has long been this hotbed of dispute. we had this exchange of fire between south korea and north korea with each other accusing the other of crossing the northern limit line. this is coming at a very tense time in the region with this

barrage of north korean weapons tests after the most recent one, north korean officials had said that they were simulating the use of tactical nuclear weapons to, quote, hit and wipe out targets. you know, over the past few weeks, both sides have been firing missiles, sending up fighter jets, buzzing the border. there are no lines of communication between the two sides right now. and there are also military drills set to happen this week between south korea and the u.s., which is always a flashpoint for pyongyang. and of course what's looming over everything is this expectation that kim jong-un is going to conduct another nuclear test. he hasn't done one since 2017. satellite imagery has been showing us that he appears to be preparing for one now that the communist party congress in china is over, the expectation he could do that test before midterms in the u.s. >> the front page of today's

"wall street journal" talks about major developments from beijing over the weekend with the headline, "xi extend his control over china." that actually seems like a bit of an understatement. i mean, people have talked about how he has more power than any leader since mao. i'm curious, though, there seemed to be a bit of an orderly process in the past from leader to leader. how exactly did xi consolidate the power the way he has over the past five, six, seven years? >> reporter: well, i mean, there was no question that he was going to consolidate control, but when he unveiled the leadership, we saw the extent to which he was able to do it, but the top positions are all occupied by xi loyalists. there's not a successor in sight because all the members of the standing committee are too old or too young to possibly take over at the next congress. so it's likely that xi jinping

could rule for another decade or longer. there are no women in the politburo for the first time in a quarter century. but this campaign started ten years ago where he was purging the party ranks of corruption and also rivals. he has centralized power in a way not seen since mao se dong. he's put companies back in the control on enterprises and been overseeing the modernization of the military. it's been this consolidation of power that seems to now be complete, which is why that moment on saturday at the closing session with hu jintao, the former leader, was in its own way very symbolic. we were in the room. we were taken in at least a half hour late. these things are so tightly coordinated, so something was happening in the room before they let us in that had gone off

script. when we got in, you could see that the stage -- things were not in order. these events are so tightly choreographed, even, you know, the way the tea is poured, so with chairs out of place and people standing, there was the sense that something had been going on and we walked in on it. the whole sequence didn't appear in chinese state media. it's not that they erased hu jintao from the coverage. he was seen in shots beside xi jinping, but then all of a sudden there was an empty chair. in its own way, that symbolized that this is now the end of the era of elective leadership, that hu jintao was a part of. it's the sidelining of the communist youth league that he helped oversee with many of his proteges being excluded from this current leadership. and it really seemed to mark the end of an era. seeing xi jinping there on the stage with the empty chair

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welcome back to "morning joe," a live shot of los angeles this morning. the sun is yet to come up. it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. jonathan lemire and elise