earnest. msnbc contributor mike barnicle, thank you, my friend. >> hey -- >> yes, go. >> can i keep the mug? >> you can keep the mug. i can sign it next time i'm at 30 rock. mike, also, quick. phillies, astros what do you got? >> phillies. >> yeah. >> going to win. >> for them too. thanks, mike. appreciate it. thank you for getting up "way too early." that's on this wednesday morning, and for the last year. "morning joe" starts right now. begin to look like we're going to have a nail biter here because polls have the race tightening as republicans gain momentum, but in what could be a good sign for democrats, early voting turnout is breaking records possibly, because of those signs outside of polling stations, democracy closing. everything must go. [ laughter ] >> the midterms now less than two weeks away. it was a huge debate night in key races across several states last night including pennsylvania where democratic senate candidate john fetterman struggled as he recovers from a stroke suffered five months ago. we'll have highlights from that

debate and others. plus, concern for house democrats in several races. they should have, they believe, locked up by now, including the seat of their campaign chief. we'll have that new reporting. good morning, welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 26th. along with joe and me, former aide to the george w. bush white house and state department's elise jordan. host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico and author best seller "the big lie" jonathan lemire and eddie glaude jr., a professor and punch bowl news jake sherman, msnbc political contributor. mika is under the weather this morning and hope to see her tomorrow. joe, we'll start it in pennsylvania just your first impressions what you saw there from john fetterman and dr. oz. >> first of all, mika under the weather, actually means she's going to probably only run seven miles this morning instead of nine. so her devgs of under the weather is a little bit different than ours. you know, it's very interesting

last night i wrote something that was very obvious. dr. oz is very slick, a slick guy who doesn't happen to fit pennsylvania. he made statements i know cause great concerns to people in pennsylvania. especially where, in the words of charlie pierce, he wanted the parks and recreation people to make decisions on the local level for abortions. i don't know how that's going to play in scranton. probably not well. and then you had, of course, fetterman, who's struggling. he's struggling with the effects of his stroke. he suffered in may. you know, i said, it's very obvious he is impaired. his ability to communicate sim paired. and -- and the question is, you -- you now -- pennsylvania voters have a couple choices, and i'm curious, jake sherman

what you think. just -- quick snapshot. i know david axelrod said, said that he was concerned with the performance last night. but you have a ton of democrats, again, talking about dr. oz not fitting the state. what was your takeaway? >> i think the overwhelming takeaway i heard and i think this is a fair, a fair thing to say is people are questioning why he went into this debate. why he did this debate. of course, if he didn't do the debate, joe, it would have raised more questions and people on him for that saying he can't run in a critical senate race in a critical year where the senate is at kind of balancing on a pin head. you can't not debate, but i think overwhelmingly people will watch that and see that he's still struggling from fallout of his stroke. that much is obvious. obviously dr. oz, you indicated, said things not fitting for

pennsylvania. this is a race that will be won, as both men kind of indicated in the suburbs of philadelphia in the suburbs of pittsburgh, kind of the suburban vote carried races like this for a long time, and the question is, will people think that fetterman is up for the job? able to serve? and will dr. oz's views on things like abortion kind of scare or concern those suburban vote voters? undoubtable, completely legitimate to say he's still struggling with his ability to speak, and you would expect that, but i think we saw that on display last night in way we have not seen it on display, joe, in rallies and other appearances he'd had. >> right. i remember dasha burns getting in trouble a couple weeks ago with people on the left even some mainstream voices saying that he had trouble with small talk. very obvious last night. of course, he underwent a major, had a major stroke, and so, again. the question, willie, is, not

whether he is going to be able to serve. the question is, how impaired is he? and that's something that the voters of pennsylvania are going to be sorting through, even if people on the left don't want to -- you know, want to pretend it doesn't exist. it does exist, but does it mean he can't serve as senator? that's just up to the voters of pennsylvania. >> exactly. it's not up to us talking on tv. it's not up to people writing on twitter. it's up to people who go into those booths less than two weeks ago. fetterman's campaign says he has trouble processing what he hears. heard tra-of-that from dasha. we told you yesterday morning, two monitors place bead hind the debate moderators. one with the debate questions and another with oz's answers. so you can see that video there. so fetterman could read it and respond. fetterman used his first response to address his health. what he called the elephant in the room and clearly struggled

at times. >> hi. good night, everybody. i'm running to serve pennsylvania. he's running to use pennsylvania. here's a man that spent more thanes $20 million of his own money to try to buy that seat. i'm -- also -- having to talk about something called the oz rule. that if he's on tv, he's lying. he did that during his career on his tv show. he's done that during his campaign about lying about our record here and he's also lying probably during this debate. and let's also talk about the elephant in the room. i had a stroke. he's never let me forget that. and -- i might miss some words during this debate, moosh two words together, knock me down but i'm going to keep coming back up. >> the real doctors that i believe they all believe that i'm ready to be served. >> i didn't hear you would release your full medical

records. rye not? why not? you have 30 seconds. >> my doctor, again, believes i'm fit to be serving and that's what i believe is where i'm standing that is there 2018 interview you said "i don't support fracking at all. so how do you square the two?" >> oh. i -- i do support fracking, and -- i don't -- i don't -- i support fracking, and i stand -- and i do support fracking. >> administration overspent. if so, where do you think spinding should be cut? you have 60 seconds. >> no. here's what i think we have to fight about inflation here right now. we need to fight about inflation right now because it's a tax on working families. that is, again, the oz rule. that is just not true, you know, here his family's company was, was levied the largest fine for immigration high of -- of

immigrate -- illegals, you know, and i think he should sit this one out in terming of a secure border. >> how bo you propose to do that, make it more affordable for families? >> i just told you. making it that much more -- it -- it costs too much and i believe providing the resources to reduce the tuition allow families to be able to afford it. >> 51% of pennsylvania voters disapprove of the president's job performance. you have publicly supported many of his policy positions. are there any that you disagree with? 30 seconds. >> i just believe he needs to do more about supporting and fighting about inflation, and i do believe he can do more about that. >> we're going to have a bunch more from the debate including dr. oz's answers in a moment, but you talk to many, many

voters in pennsylvania. we've been watching your focus groups and they did express kearns about john fetterman's health. the question what they watched last night, pauses we saw. some reading the prompter behind the moderators waiting for the question to be transcribed. will that influence their vote and say i don't know if i love dr. oz but worried about john fetterman's health? >> we spoke to swing voters in bucks county, and pittsburgh who were hesitant, and they might not be happy with the republican choice in dr. oz, but they had serious questions about john fetterman's recovery and the aftermath, they said they would be watching the debate closely to see what his recovery had been like. we have footage of those voters watching the interview that was conducted with john fetterman and they were hesitant. you know we did so much work

with these focus groups and and hour-long survey with the participants we ended up bringing into the group and so some of them in these groups would say that they were leaning oz but wouldn't necessarily admit it in the group dynamic. so already i wonder if there's a little bit of kind of trumpian embarrassment, 2016-esque with the oz vote and this certainly is not going to help john fetterman. his performance last night. >> you know, eddie, you're humanity immediately kicks in when you watch that. anybody who knows anybody in their family had a stroke. very difficult to watch. you kind of know what john fetterman's going through there. on the other hand running for a united states senate seat and some will have doubts because of last night. >> it was hard and the superficial nature in which our politics takes place today. right? so voters don't have the patience to make a distinction between his ability to articulate his thoughts and cognitive abilities and a

wonderful op-ed in the "new york times" this morning from jill taylor about, she's a neuroscientist, had a stroke, and what it takes, how the brain heals itself. he's perfectly capable, but it was hard to watch. and given the way in which our politics, the image, the glitz, the performance, often stands in for substance. it was -- it's just a hard, it's a hard hill to climb, seems to me. >> yeah. what stood out most. just watching that, but then the policy, and questions about abortion, for example. here's what dr. oz said when asked about a woman's right to choose to have an abortion or not. >> as a physician i've been in the room when there's difficult conversations happening. i don't want the federal government involved with that at all. i want women, doctors, local political leaders leading the democracy always allowed our nigs to thrive to put the best forward so states can decide for

themselves. >> local officials. would you want a county commissioner making life and death decisions about you and your family? >> that was the most heinous, atrocious answer that dr. oz could have possibly uttered last night, and i can only imagine how the women swing voters who were already not completely happy with how he him hawed on it and the republican party writ large on abortion, how they would respond to that. so many women that, you know, spoken to and heard from on abortion. it's not that they love the idea of abortion, but they don't want government involved, and they want to keep government out, and literally wlal he proposed was bringing it down to the local level. the most invasive form of, you know, bringing in local government officials? it's just -- ooh.

>> yeah. >> that's -- that's all i have to say. >> yeah. i mean, you look, you look, jonathan lemire, at the state legislatures and what they've done. passing legislation that makes 10-year-old girls flee a state who have been raped. you've got actually michigan gubernatorial candidate saying that a 14-year-old girl getting raped by her uncle is a perfect example why there can be absolutely no exceptions for rape or incest. and that's on the state level. now you have dr. oz talking about wanting local officials to make decisions, life and death decisions, about 10-year-old girls getting raped, a 14-year-old incest victim. you go down the long list. all of the -- all of the horrific things that were imagined before roe v. wade was overturned. well, it appears that a lot of

state legislatures are making those -- those imagined horrors actually a reality for so many americans, and now dr. oz says he wants to get it to the local level, which really shows something much larger here, and this is a guy who voted in turkey last election. this is a guy who has lived in jersey, who has his mansion in jersey and houses all over the place. he didn't look pennsylvanian. i mean, i've been to pennsylvania a lot, and this guy doesn't look like he's from pennsylvania. he doesn't talk like he's from pennsylvania. and when he starts talking about people in the water management district making decisions about life or death, life or death decisions on rape, incest, life of the mother, that's somebody that doesn't think like most pennsylvanians i've talked to

either. >> no. certainly nothing oz did last night will dispel the charges he's a carpet bag around seems to embrace an extreme decision on abortion and that's what democrats are trying to say. where republicans win. if they win the senate, win the house, take the white house, they will be so far out of step with where the rest of the country will be. in terms of the context of the debate, oz's comment there sort of acted as a life line for democrats who were, of course, concerned ass to how fetterman was doing, who obviously was struggling. it's going to spark new questions about his health, and as everyone else has been saying. difficult to watch at times last night, but i think we need to keep in mind, this is a debate happening late in the cycle. a lot of people have already made up their minds who don't know what the audience was last night. unclear how much impact this will actually have. certainly it didn't help fetterman. we already know this was a race tightening. i'm focused and democrat officials internals last couple days had fetterman, up 16, had

been up 10 or 12 now up more like 4 or 5. that's still a lead. outside margin of error and tighten much more. stakes can't be overstated here. a real chance control of the u.s. senate is going to come down to this one race, and the margins likely to be razor thin. >> jake sherman, when you talk to deaths on capitol hill, when you talk to leadership and people running the campaigns, what's their sense of this race? maybe not after last night, unless you talked to some in the last few hours but generally speaking, where do they believe pennsylvania's going? >> i agree with what john said. senior democrats have seen polls tighten from the double dump its -- digits to single digits. just like 2004, 2010 and 2006 in an election that has potential of people some form of a wave. we don't know how big of a wave

that will be. these races tend to break republicans' way. it doesn't mean it's going to. tend to. when the president has, between a 38% to 42% approval rating, when the wrong track is in the 70% range, that just means that the mood of the country is sour. the generic ballot for republicans up five to six points. general theory. in a year like this, republicans say, close races break republicans' way. we've seen it historically. a theory, not saying a subscribe to this. to not overcomplicate this. less a massive messup some of these republicans will win some races. >> that so much. still ahead on "morning joe" president biden shares his thoughts on the state of democracy and what is on the

line this election now just 13 days away. meanwhile, a former top adviser to former president trump gives testimony to the january 6th committee. we'll tell you who that is. also ahead, we spent rate of time on the senate race in pennsylvania. ohio also a toss-up at this point. joined by the democratic nominee congressman tim ryan. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. rinvoq. make it your mission. learn how abbvie could help you save. ars a physician i've been in the room when there's difficult conversations happening. i don't want the federal government involved in that at all. i want political, local leaders to put the best ideas forward so

states can decide for themselves. >> what's so disconcerting about that he says as a doctor and then wants local political officials to make medical decisions on life and death. moral issues. religious issues. we're putting that in the hands of -- of water management district people or parks and recreations? i don't understand what he means bike that and i'm sure a lot of other people don't. i want to circle back to something jake sherman said before. and it's something that others have said over the past couple days. if you just look at the numbers. if you just look at the numbers, and you look at history, and you just do the basic math, as we've been saying for a year. should be a red tsunami.

obviously, you have a white house in power. the opposing party always does well in off-year elections. you have a president who struggled with low approval ratings over the past six months. they're a little higher now. you have inflation up. you have gas prices up. and the right track/wrong track numbers, going in the wrong direction. add all of those up, and that's really bad for the party in power. so when you have all of those things going in one direction, it takes an issue, or it -- it takes something else to disrupt history, and elise, there are a lot of democrats this morning who believe an answer like that from dr. oz is one of those things that could disrupt historical trends. i don't know if it is. it looked like it might three months ago. not so sure that it is now, but

some people are still telling me they believe that the early voting numbers suggest there's something out there, but you talk to voters in pennsylvania about abortion. what did you find? >> joe, dr. oz's answer was basically exactly what those voters would not want to hear. especially women who are sitting on the fence and they said they weren't going to be single-issue voters on abortion, but if they felt there would be a local board giving women a yes or no, yea or nay on choices i don't think it would go over well. give you a sense how voters are dealing with this complicated issue, and these are groups we conducted prior to the debate, and let's just take a look. >> could you see abortion being completely banned in pennsylvania in the near future?

>> you know, not to make it a race issue, but a lot of caucasian women would fight. they are the strongest proponents against this. >> i don't have, shouldn't have the right to, you know, comment or tell a woman what she can do or not do with her body. so as far as the time frame -- as a man i feel like its -- i don't really have that much of a say. >> i don't think it's me making decisions about women. >> how many of you think it was bad thing to overturn roe v. wade? so everyone? is anyone unsure or on the fence about it? >> it's so hard, because i see both sides of it. again, i understand a woman's right. god -- you know, don't tell us what we can or can't do, but i also see the right of people that want to save that child. so it's such a -- it's just such a hard decision, but i don't think that you, anyone has any right to take anything away from a person's individual choice.

>> i don't like the idea of saying, oh, yes. absolutely. you can have an abortion, with you know, whatever, but at the same time, like, i'm not the one that has to live with that, so -- i don't think i can say, oh, no. we shoin have restrictions, or, yes, we should. >> if you let the government start restricting things, i work for the government for 35 years. they can change the rules on the drop of a dime. who's in charge changes the rules. know what i mean? everything changes the rules. if there's, you know -- right now all we have is democrats and republicans. democrats in, these rules. republican comes in wants to change all the democrats' rules. if they start doing that with my body or my daughter's body, or my grandchild's body, that -- that is not their business. that's my business. >> does anyone oppose a third trimester abortion? >> of course, none of us feel good about aborting a third trimester body. >> no. never want to make that

decision. >> we understand it's situational and it's not for us to say. none of us feel good about it but nobody should make that decision except the mother. >> do you feel like democrats have done enough to protect reproductive rights for women? >> it's not just them. it's -- it's -- it's congress and the house itself. >> honestly, i feel like they've done some to hurt it, because they've made so much of it about women's reproductive rights and abortion, and it's the -- you've made it such a huge focus that now people are saying, oh, we have to fight this with everything. they think that's how to win votes, but, like, make it maybe not so much of a focus, and then people will lighten up about it and, like, the far right republicans that are, oh, we have to ban everything will disappear, because suddenly they're not having the challenge, the, oh, everybody

has to have a right to an abortion, even the day before the baby's due. >> do you describe yourself as pro-choice? anyone? show of hands? does anyone describe themselves as pro-life? >> i am pro-life. >> so how many people pro-life. >> i am pro-life. >> i don't put either label on myself because i have such mixed opinions about it. >> there should be -- the, the ability for choices to be made under certain situations. >> what are the exceptions that even though you consider yourself pro-life, that you believe should be permitted under the law? do you support an exception for rape? >> yes. >> yes. >> everyone? showing of hands. >> yeah. >> yes. >> what about life of the mother? >> absolutely. >> incest? >> yes. >> so even though you describe yourself as pro-life you are willing to have these exceptions? under the law?

>> contraception itself should be much more readily available to everyone than it is now. >> as in over-the-counter or available without parental consent? >> as in -- even more severe than that. being -- having surgeries sump as vasectomies, tubal lying aces, that should be more readily available do a show of hands. did anyone think it was a good thing, the decision? >> i -- i believe abortion is murder. i'm a catholic, white man, but end of the day you're not standing in front of me as the judge. so that's not my decision to make, but i really do think it should be legal. i do think it's murder. >> so elise, we've seen you do focus groups with voters in georgia, in pennsylvania. you know, we'll run a day of trump voters saying something.

everybody's -- and then the next day ask them questions on abortion, and, of course, it's very ambiguous for them, and they consider themselves pro-life, but i've noticed in georgia with trump voters that were espousing conspiracy theories. i always talk about that man who said, hey, i'm a man. it's none of my business, and that's the thing we keep hearing. so we, here's the great irony about the most divisive issue of the last 30 years. it now appears to be the single unifying issue with people, whether they're in downtown philadelphia, if they're black voters in downtown philadelphia, or they're white trump voters in western pennsylvania. there is a real reluctance to

say, let's be ideological on abortion. i just -- again, i find that striking. what a huge gulf between politicians in washington, d.c. and in state legislatures, and voters on all sides on this issue of abortion. i'm not saying they're all pro-abortion. i'm not saying they're all, you know, taking the democrats' position, i'm just saying they are so more -- nuanced about it than state legislatures. >> joe, voters look at the issue with much more complexity and they see the shades of gray in a way that politicians, when they discuss it, it just doesn't come across, and i think your point about how -- you know, the trump voter in atlanta, georgia, saying i'm a man. i shouldn't have anything, this isn't my choice, and the same thing echoed by a democratic man

in philadelphia. so men have certainly got than memo, american men. maybe just not, you know, male politicians, but this issue really seems to be hurting republicans. if they're completely draconian, no exceptions whatsoever, look what happened in kansas, how the oklahoma governor's race is in play. not a good thing for republicans to say no abortions ever, no exceptions. if i'm the john fetterman campaign i would clip that ad immediately what dr. oz said last night in the debate. >> yeah. the line is local political leaders, what dr. oz said. probably meant to sap to the states. even that, looked at the primary, he said i'm 100% pro-life. 100% pro-life now during the general election, well, there should be exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother, but also he says, it should be left to the state. this should not be a federal

issue. interesting looking at polling. we thought after kansas, after dobbs, this might be a voting issue that could propel democrats into the midterms. in the state of pennsylvania among catholic voters even, only 10% say abortion is their number one issue and 60% say it's the economy, which seems to be true across cross sections of voters. >> a moment activated democratic base, activated women, and democrats found, you know, fueled, supercharged in some ways over the summer, but i think we have to be clear that there is a, there are complex issues facing voters in this midterm. underlining continuity across the ideological section, americans toned have a libertarian streak. whether the right or left. moments where, just leave me the hell alone. i think it doesn't have to be articulated in an ideological way. you don't become rand paul, but

there is something about this particular place called america, where just, at some point, back off and let me be who i am. i think that's showing up in some of this. >> heard that in focus groups. back to pennsylvania in a moment and joined by michigan governor gretchen whitmer after she squared off against tudor dixon, her opponent. and boosting oil production, but crown prince mohammed bin laden had different ideas. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms.

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live picture. 6:39 in the morning of washington, d.c. joe, important stuff to get to

on saudi arabia, on democracy in america and the debates last night but we want to begin here crossing bottom of the hour with an update on richard haass's fasht hair, or lack thereof. >> oh, my god. >> the beard is gone, joe. the beard is gone. america had fallen in love with the beard and for reasons that remain unclear, richard haass abandoned it. perhaps a playoff beard for the yankees and it was time to go. >> what richard haass told me and i didn't want to share with everybody else was, he said that while the yankees were still in the playoff he believed it would be good luck if he would not shave. and not change his underwear. >> wow. >> which is why we hadn't had him onset after after the yankees were out of the playoffs. he's a little cleaner than before. so today, yeah. but, richard, my condolences on the yankees. they had an incredible, historic

season, but i haven't let you crow about the new york giants, and let's also crow a little bit about the jets. i, you know, since i'm in atlanta falcons fan i have to sort of pick and choose teams to cheer for, week in and week out. i've always suffered also with the jets, because, you know, i loved joe namath, an alabama boy, but the jets, and the giants. they don't have great teams. right? but they just -- and this is my highest compliment for a football team. they just get the job done. >> well, thank you, joe. thank you for your sensitivity this morning. it's -- it's -- >> you're welcome. >> look, giants and the jets. well-coached teams. giants watching what their quarterback's doing, dan jones, what saquon barkley is doing. they find a way to win.

the super bowl. what we're moving towards. >> oh, whatever. >> only took ten seconds to lose you there. >> just like the subway. >> willie, one other thing before we get into obviously much more important stuff, we didn't have a chance to talk about tom brady. like, tom brady losing to a 1-5 panthers team. guy's got to be saying, i came back -- for this? i mean -- no. i'm serious, too. >> and lost gisele over it. >> well, we don't know. we don't know. they could be just wild rumors. but at some point, willie, i'm dead serious here. why doesn't he just say, hey, i've got to go home. if i could leave -- lead these guys to the playoffs i would. i need to go home and take care of things there. >> he's still tom brady. a press conference the other day play until he's 50 if he feels

like it. so -- >> aarp. >> and may have second thoughts about a decision to come back given how tumultuous for him on and all right field. it is disorienting, i have to say, when power rankings come out this week. giants number five. the jets are, like, number seven. just does not happen. >> i thought referring to my not having a beard this morning. thank you for moving on, willie. appreciate it. >> so, jonathan lemire, how are you handling the tom brady year? i know you've got a life-sized portrait of him on your ceiling that you actually take wherever you go. >> oh. >> hotel rooms in washington. your home in new york. how are you dealing with the fall of, well, your teen idol? >> teen, 20s, 30s, 40-year-old idol. he's still the guy. a tough season. also gotten really skinny, like, to the point he almost seems

gaunt. we're all worried about tom. here's the thing. buccaneers struggled. his stats are pretty good. had a decent year, but they are 3-4. the worst division in football, you know as an atlanta falcons fan. still favored to be in the playoffs even if just 9-8. likely won't go anywhere, but he is still going to play. he suggested he's not ruling out playing beyond this year. we'll see. i'm also more concerned about the "monday night football" dealing with a patriots disaster. we can't pick any quarterback there. both played terribly monday. disorienting to see. i'm blessed with 20 years of success, the pats, brady and now to see the giants and jets succeed, frankly it's hard to stomach, i will say, richard haass. >> did you get mugged in new york or something? >> i know. >> never met a man with a bigger chip on his shoulder than jon. talk through it a little bit, jon? >> i have lived in new york for

decades and love new york city. in fact, but moving to new york, being surrounded, living in the lion's den and surrounded by all the new york fans is only deepened my distaste for them. i'm sorry to say. >> oh, wow. ooh, wow. >> you need to work on that. >> but -- richard, i also will say, you look, lack of the beard, disappointing this morning. you look great, but -- >> jon's hatred for giants, and now cheating astros. >> and now goep phillies. >> found a common thread. all rooting for philadelphia. america's team. >> back to the news here. a new report in the "new york times" offering in-depth account of what went on behind the scenes between the biden administration and the kingdom of saudi arabia over the summer as the u.s. secured what it thought was a deal to boost oil production. instead earlier this month saudi

arabia and russia worked to guide opec plus to slash oil production by 2 million barrels a day. shocked biden and shocked them toll re-assess its relationship with the kingdom. and washington investigative correspondent for the "new york times" mark mazzetti. so, mark, walk us through this a little bit. what was the deal that the biden administration thought it had in place before joe biden went over and fist bumped the crown prince and how was the rug pulled out from under them? >> recall the controversy before the trip. the idea that president biden after having committed to treating saudis as a pariah during the campaign makes the decision to visit saudi arabia. some of his aides saw benefits of the trip started having discussions with saudi officials about what they could get out of this trip, and one of the things

that was foremost on the table was this idea to increase oil production as a means of lowering gas prices. of course, this was something that was contributing, high prices were contributing to inflation, and also the fortunes of democratic party and the november elections. so essentially what was in place that was reinforced in jeddah in july was saudis month by month would push opec to increase oil production through july, august and then critically september through december, 200,000 barrels a day for each of those months, and that started to work. you started to see elements of the deal in place through the summer. saudis started boosting production but slowly over time that commitment started to erode and then we saw last, two weeks ago was opec and russia doing

the opposite. slashing production and this infuriated the white house. >> the white house, biden administration says because of this and other things it's re-assessing's relationship with saudi arabia. what does that mean exactly? what are they willing to stop doing and stop engaging with saudi arabia? >> a good question, and it's yet to be seen. you saw a lot of angry statements from the spokesperson at the white house about this re-assessment. clearly angry about the opec decision. there's certainly been movement in congress to dial back military aid, economic ties to saudi arabia, but as yet the white house hasn't articulated what exactly is going to happen, and it's certainly possible over time that, you know, cooler heads prevail, and less happens than we would have thought a couple weeks ago. what white house officials say what's really critical as a next step is december. the next opec meeting. at that time the russian sanctions will kick in, in

europe. russian oil coming off the market, and they say if the saudis at that time again vote to slash oil production, effectively they're casting their lot with the russians. they're looking ahead to december. what they're do in the meantime, it's yet to be determined. >> yet gas prices have continued to go down even with this announcement. richard, what i find to be so fascinating, and disturbing about the saudi decision is, that even other members of opec were begging them to not cut production. saying we have a deal with the united states. this is not in our best economic interests. we're already at $80 a barrel. you cutting production even more may not be supported by the markets. don't do it. even hearing this from other opec nations saying this made no sense, the saudis moved forward

anyway. so do you have any insight since this has happened why they may have done something that was not in their best geopolitical interests, not in their best economic interests? that's question number one. and question number two is what does congress do? do they look at some of those weapons deals that have been described as sweetheart deals for the saudis, and freeze those programs? >> the first question, joe, it wasn't economically necessary for saudi arabia to do this. oil wasn't going below $80 a barrel. the administration offered to buy up oil if necessary to prop up the price to refill the strategic petroleum reserve. this is not about energy prices. put that aside. we don't know about a desire on saudis part to do something in favor of russia. i think more to stick it to the biden administration. the saudis truly dislike the biden administration. they feel the biden administration has mugged them

over human rights issues, over khashoggi and that whole set of -- >> but, richard, can i stop you there for a second? this is what i don't understand. the saudis since their leader lured khashoggi, tortured him, chopped him up into 1,000 little pieces and buried him, a virginia resident, by the way, who was an op-ed writer for the "washington post," their government's been trying to figure out how to get out of the corner. biden went over to saudi arabia to help mbs get out of the corner. asked him to do what was in his best economic interests and he slapped biden in the face. so the question is -- why would they hate the biden administration when biden did what few other leaders would do?

>> again, they still felt way too much pressure on human rights. they disagree with the biden administration fundamentally on what was the desire to get back into 2015 nuclear deal with iran. a lot of legacy issues and a lot of these people work for the obama administration, bad blood there. a preference for the trump administration a preference for what that represented. >> there you go. >> so i just think this is a saudi calculation and, again, the fact this happened a couple weeks before the midterms. the expectation was it was going to affect the price of oil in ways that would make a difficult situation worse for democrats. look, believe in coincidences, joe. i don't believe in coincidences. >> yeah. i know. but one other thing, too. i mean, their biggest enemy right now, iran. their biggest enemy is helping vladimir putin kill civilians in

ukraine. they have aligned themselves with their biggest enemy, and by the way, we know how this story ends. if iran moves in saudi arabia or does something dramatic against saudi arabia, who the hell are they going to call? russia? no. they're going to call us again. so, again, this makes no sense. we're the guarantors end of the day of saudis not facing dire consequences. do they think luxembourg's will save them, russia save them? china? no! it's us. so this is how they act towards biden? this is how they act towards the united states of america? >> look what do want me to say? you're basically saying why aren't the saudis acting more strategic? taking -- >> i'm saying why not just acting strategic. why are they doing things that actually undermine their own self-interests? see, because that's what i don't get here.

i understand when countries do things in their own self-interests. that's not in the united states self-interest. that shocks and stuns a lot of people. never stunned people like you or dr. brzezinski. nations act in their own self-interests. so when i see a leader and a country doing something that hurts his country, geopolitically, that hurts his country economically, that raises larger, and i would say more disturbing questions. >> joe, actually say lesson of history is how often governments and leaders don't act in their own self-interests. barbara tuchman wrote a famous book about the march of folly. putin and ukraine. how xi jinping rallied much of the asia pacific against him. so interesting. united states acted contrary to its own self-interests.

argue we did that in iraq and vietnam, and other places. that, to me, is what history is ash and saudi arabia, what you also have is a decision-making system comes down to one person. there's no real input. no one pushing back. no checks and balances. you have a crown prince who essentially runs the show, just like a vladimir putin, just like xi jinping. the idea they would take positions that are impulsive, sort-sided, contrary to their own national interests, i'd almost say that's what interest expects out of this type of a system. >> and incredible and important reporting. still plenty of americans who want retribution to saudis for 9/11 much less jamal khashoggi and now this. what are you hearing from congressional sources about what the biden administration might do? what congress might do? are they going to end some of these ridiculous weapons sales to saudi arabia? do you think there might be a

push? >> i think what you've seen's in recent years is a, a ground shift in congress in their you know, attitudes towards the saudis. there was always opposition to the saudis in congress, but there was a pretty bedrock of, a solid bedrock of support especially in the republican party. that is starting to change in recent years for a number of issues. the war in yemen. killing of khashoggi. even republicans were opposed to how tight the trump administration was with saudi officials during those four years. so you could certainly see obviously we'll see what happens in the november elections, and the makeup of congress, but you can certainly see bipartisan efforts to do certain things. like as you raise. dial back military aid. weapons sales. you know, economic ties. i think there probably could be bipartisan support for that, and

then, to all of your discussions about the strategic interests of the saudis, that, then, raises the question of what will the saudis do next? is it calling their bluff saying, okay. go buy chinese military equipment. do you really want that? a feeling in congress start to call their bluff. dial back some of these military equipment sales, and then see what they do then. i certainly think there's an attitude of that in congress. >> last word, richard. >> yeah. there is a model for this it's called turkey. an ally but we don't treat them like an ally because it doesn't act like them and become as transactional case-by-case relationship. that's what we're moving towards not a breach or total breakdown but a much more modulated careful partner something but something not. a strategic drift between these countries. gap will get wider.

not a total breakdown but a much more distant relationship. no respect, no trust between those two countries. you can have a working relationship in the absence of trust. >> thanks for sharing new reporting were your with us. we'll read the piece at "new york times."com. richard haass, saying good-bye to you and farewell to the beard. here it is one more time. >> ah! >> wow. do you pledge if the giants make playoffs to bring back the beard. >> we're bring back the beard. the giants -- well, super bowl or playoffs? >> make the playoff. >> a playoff beard just like a yankee playoff beard. >> didn't work very well. >> we need to get a compliment from eddie that his beard is going. >> i think eddie's working the goatee well. >> no change. >> likes right where he is. >> exactly. >> and we'll -- >> richard, thank you. still ahead joined by a number of democratic mid-term candidates. michigan governor gretchen

whitmer joins us following her debate last night with opponent tudor dixon. nominee in ohio tim ryan joins the conversation and we'll speak with senator maggie hassan about her race for re-election in new hampshire. one that is tightening. "morning joe" will be right back. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we support immune function. supply fuel for immune cells and sustain tissue health. ensure with twenty-five vitamins and minerals, and ensure complete with thirty grams of protein. i d d so my y quesonons eouout hicacase.y y son, and ensure complete cacalledhehe bars s fi i d d soit was the best call eouout hii could've made. and ensure complete call the barnes firm and find out what your case all could be worth.uld've made. and ensure complete ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪

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i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to k how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou let's also talk about the elephant in the room. i had a stroke. he's never let me forget that. and -- i might miss some words during this debate, moosh two words together, but knocked me down but i'm going to keep coming back up. >> i've visited vocational schools. john, i wasn't clear enough for you to understand this. >> hmm. >> oh, my god. >> from john fetterman. >> what a schmuck. come on. it's -- he -- why did he even have to say that? all he did hurt himself with voters. >> gone out of his way time and time again. remember, he said, maybe if fetterman had eaten more vegetables off the -- he might

not have had that stroke. fetterman at times struggled. welcome back to "morning joe." still with us, and joining the conversation our friend and msnbc contributor mike barnicle, joe. >> and issues fetterman had in a moment as far as processing information. keeping up, answering clearly, but first the candidates were asked about their views on abortion rights. here's how dr. oz responded. >> as a physician i've been in the room when there's difficult conversations happening. i don't want the federal government involved with that at all. i want women, doctors, local political leaders living democracy always allowed our democracy toe thrive. >> oz refused to offer yes or no whether or not he's support a

federal ban on abortion to 15 weeks instead opposes a law that limits how states approach. you look again, look at the people that you talk to. not only in pennsylvania, but in georgia. even trump supporters. they're not comfortable with local boards deciding health care issues, choices, for women. these are moral choices that instead of between a child who's been raped and her parents and a doctor and a mental health provider and a preacher, dr. oz thinks it should be local, what? county commissioners? it really -- >> hmm. >> it's really something that has to be jarring, and i suspect something that pennsylvania voters are going to see often overt next two weeks in 30-second ads. >> i mean, that was an ad in the making last night, and they've already cut it and it's going to be rolled out, if the campaign

is on top of their game. really, i just still i can't get over how dr. oz managed to give the absolutely most horrific, heinous answer to that question when it comes to winning over swing voters. that's just exactly what -- people don't want to have, you know, the local tax assessor of their county involved in their medical decision. women are anguished over abortion and the limitations they want on them and how long should be the period that a, you know, a fefetus, a baby should aborted, but they don't want this. >> and the oz campaign has said and will say that they meant that, to be left to the states, clearly fumbled over that answer last night. john fetterman's health front and center yesterday. the first time he'd sat on a stage next to dr. oz since having that stroke, or at all in this campaign, since having the stroke in may and he did

struggle at times. something voters will have to deal with themselves and decide what it means to them. here's some of john fetterman last night. >> hi. good night, everybody. i'm running to serve pennsylvania. he's running to use pennsylvania. here's a man that spent more thanes $20 million of his own money to try to buy that seat. i'm also having to talk about something called the oz rule, that if he's on tv, he's lying. he did that during his career, on his tv show. he's done that during his campaign about lying about our record here, and he's also lying probably during this debate. let's also talk about the elephant in the room. i had a stroke. he's never let me forget that, and i might miss some words during this debate, moosh two words together, but it knocked me down but i'm going to keep

coming back up. >> there is that 2018 interview that you said "i don't support fracking at all." how do you square the two? >> i -- i do support fracking, and -- i don't -- i don't -- i support fracking and i stand -- and i do support fracking. >> mike, on a human level difficult to watch at times as we've been saying all morning, up to a voter in pennsylvania to go into the booth and decide whether that matters. whether his inability to process things on an auditory manner means he can't sit as a u.s. senator will be unto voters. >> painful and even sadder to watch it today in the follow-up, and it's a case i would think of extreme political malpractice in whoever allowed him to go forward with that debate. knowing what they knew, dealing

with what they knew. look. it's a disability, but a lot of people endured, suffered through and god willing, fetterman will prosper eventually, but last night was just awful. it was awful. i have no idea how voters will react. i suspect, i suspect a substantial percentage of them might have their minds change fundamental they were thinking of voting for john fetterman after seeing that performance last night. it wasn't a performance. again, it was a sad display of someone -- someone suffering, and i don't know what people, how they will react to it. >> yeah. suffering. we need to circle back to one thing, too, willie. we need to circle back to dasha burns got absolutely eviscerated for talking about, talking about how john fetterman was having problems communicating with her. there were leading voices that would actually, that actually came out attacking dasha burns

saying, no. i talked to fetterman. funny, witty, quoted the gettysburg address and then, of course, sang the french national anthem back. all of this just ludicrous stuff when actually telling the truth would have prepared pennsylvania voters more. seeing more reports like dasha burns report would have prepared pennsylvania voters more for what they saw last night. so the fact they tried to clean this up beforehand, a lot of fetterman's allies on the left tried to clean this up before, and the fact they're still suggesting that nothing happened. that's fine. if that helps them on their twitter feed, that's fine. but people need to be direct with pennsylvania voters, because it doesn't really mat wlaer we're saying here or what people are saying on twitter. it matters what pennsylvania voters are saying and what they're thinking, and my only

question is, sort of follow-up with what mike said and what some democrat operatives said. why did they let him get on the stage? he could have explained, hey, listen, i'm still having auditory issues, and i'm going to be able to represent you in the united states senate. i'm going to be able to analyze issues and i know issues, i certainly know issues a hell of a lot more than herschel walker does. so republicans saying that i'm somehow unable to, to serve in the united states senate, they should just worry about georgia and let me worry about myself. he could talk about how they were other people who have had strokes in the united states before, had processing problems, who did their jobs well. they didn't do that. and it leads to even a bigger question. if fetterman wins then all of this will be forgotten. if fetterman loses the question is, why didn't other democrats step forward and run this race?

other democrats probably would have been 20 points ahead right now, but this is an issue that has hung over fetterman's campaign since he had the stroke, and really the only way to approach it, be as transparent at possible. trust the voters. i always say this to politicians. trust the voters. you will be surprised at how compassionate and empathetic they are. that hasn't been done here, willie, and it's caused a bump in the road i think to say the least for this campaign. >> first of all, dasha burns reported what happened in the room accurately and correctly. borne out by what we saw last night. describing her off-camera conversations in a way many reporters last night said, i've interviewed john fetterman and this performance on the stage was actually worse than i've seen in private, which wasn't great to begin with.

those are reporters saying that. not partisan. dasha in her interview, i think perhaps preparing pennsylvania voters for what they saw reading dasha's questions off of a computer screen. you've been talking to these voters elise and you know whether people like it on twitter or not it concerns voters some, at least in pa. >> and contributes to distrust in the media, when media has a story not sharedvoters to "protect them." i think of ruth bader ginsburg, how more well-served if let in the on other conversations and the real seriousness of her medical situation. perhaps the world might be a little different right now. you think of the moments when reporters have choices. whether they want to be in with their sources, in with the club,

or actually take a leap and tell the truth, which is their job, and that's what dasha burns did and that's what everyone should be endeavoring to do so that pennsylvania voters are educated about their six-year choice. >> there's a sense in which, i mean, i understand what everyone is saying, and to me it was difficult to watch, even though i understand that fetterman's cognitive abilities don't necessarily align with his, the speech, his auditory issues, but i think there's some folk out here who want to use this as an excuse to vote for a celebrity carpet bag, and we have to still understand the choice in front of us, because if oz wins, and the republicans take over the senate, we're going to -- we're going to, in effect, give power to a party that has in some ways, to my mind, mike, has jeopardized our democracy. >> i get that, eddie, completely, but i think the average voter in pennsylvania

elise will know more. who will represent me and my family needs right now in the united states senate? they're not think hoog wins majority in the senate. they're thinking about themselves, their families and immediate future. and, again, i get back to, i have no idea what people would take from that other than it was painful to watch. does it affect their vote one way or another? probably, but i don't know. >> yeah. we don't know yet. look at elise -- eddie look at elise focus group in the philly suburbs. said it yesterday. we talk an awful lot about january 6th, talk about the threats to democracy and all of those things every day, because that concerns us obviously. you talk to swing voters in bucks county, pennsylvania, they're worried about inflation. that their kids are two years behind in math scores. worried about gas prices, where

the economy is going, worried about their rent, can che pay their mortgage? those are issues that consume them. so voters think, selfishly, as voters do, as you do, as i do, i'm going to vote like you and i -- probably voting on the same issues. the protection of democracy. justice for what's happened for people who tried to subvert american democracy. what we're going to do. people i just talked about, trying to figure out how to keep their kids in school, how do make sure kids do better in schools. those are the issues. whether they'll be able to pay their rent or not. and this is something perhaps people don't understand. are you guys sawing through wall there or something? >> doing some light carpentry, joe. forgive me. >> a perfect time do it and tell our good friends at be in. >> we're working on that. >> any carpentry you want to do

between 6:00 and 10:00 a.m., please, do it right over our show. perfect time to do it. thank you so much for thinking of us, but, eddie. it is not inconsistent to say, be transparent. tell the voters what they're going to get with john fetterman. tell them how serious the stroke is. because i believe, and i always found, that's how you win voters. if you think that a vote for fetterman is a vote to save democracy, then you want to be as transparent to voters as humanly possible. don't surprise the voters. my mentor, when i became a lawyer said, always tell the jury the bad news up front. because if you give a juror the chance to think the worst about your client, they will. so give them the bad news up front, and then work from there. i think there are a lot of democrats right now thinking the

fetterman campaign didn't do that effectively enough before the debate. >> you know, i think -- i think you're right. in this sense. right? i think the initial response was to kind of close the ranks. try to hide the -- the scope of the stroke. and then there's this moment where they're trying to be transparent. he's used language of, i want to be transparent. so he stepped on the stage courageously. might have been a bad political decision, but he stepped on the stage in some ways to try to be transparent. on one level he wa -- jake sherman said this first hour. damned if you do damned if you don't. if he didn't show up left it to the oz campaign to paint his health, state of his health. so i think you're right, joe. the american public craves the sound of the genuine, but at the same time, we also crave the glitz and glamour of performance.

so it's this contradiction that's at the heart of our politics, seems to me. i'm throwing my hands up, because i'm just confused. >> joe, tim ryan waiting in the wings but a couple things. a lot of mail-in votes already in, in pennsylvania before this debate. keep that in mind. a lot of people made up their minds before the debate. you always say, what? 13 days, i think two lifetimes in politics. a million things will happen between now and election day. sure that performance last night may stick in the back of the minds of some pennsylvania voters. end of the day now perhaps watched this, ashabsorbed it, independents or republicans go back to the issues i don't want to vote for a guy. dr. oz takes away abortion rights, maybe come back to foundation's thing ace bov and beyond the stroke suffered by john fetterman. >> what do we know about debates? what we know is, you never know what the impact is going to be. >> yep. >> we sat through donald

trump -- donald trump debates and we saw debates in 2016. they were the worst performances we'd ever seen in our lives. i remember one in particular was just heinous. he just made a fool of himself. he couldn't complete sentences. he didn't know the issues. he was blustering, and then you'd have, like, a snap cbs poll showing 88% of republicans watching the debate thought he won. you never know what's going to happen. in my personal case the best debate i ever had. the best debate performance ever had in a debate i walked out of the room saying, oh, my god. that was incredible. worked against me, because people thought that i was too tough on the other opponents. just -- just -- i -- i don't -- i still don't know to this day why. they thought that. so you never know how a debate's going to play out. there may be a lot of ohio people or a lot of pennsylvania people who are having difficult

times right now. look at fetterman and say, you know what? that guy's been -- oz has been selling magic beans, called in front of congress for the past 20 years because he's such a sheister. talked too fast, was too slick. votes in turkey. you know? he -- he -- he lives in new jersey. lives in new jersey. he's just -- he's just too slick, and he's a sheister, and they may look at fetterman and go, the guy's struggling. got knocked down. i've been knocked down in my life, too. i'm going to fight my way back, just like him. i think he can do the job. you never know how these things are going to break. this could end up breaking in his direction. we shall see. let's go to ohio right now. ohio republican senate nominee j.d. vance is attacking his opponent. democratic congressman tim ryan. for what he says is a key issue

that ryan's ignoring on the campaign trail. inflation. >> not talking about inflation, not talking about spending policies. energy policies. not talking about anything that's actually on the minds of voters. >> and i love the subhead. dems couldn't care less about real issues. what a -- what a headline there. only one problem with that line of attack. the issue vance said ryan is ignore has been the main focus of his entire campaign. take a look. >> this is an opportunity for us, one, to reduce inflation. >> inflation reduction act also drives down our deficit. >> one of the big drivers of innation. >> so the inflation reduction act. >> since the inflation reduction act. >> natural gas was a big part of the inflation reduction act. >> i put the revisions in inflation reduct act.

>> made sure had all in the inflation reduction act. >> deal with directly after the inflation reduct act. >> i don't know how much clearer this could be. >> congressman ryan joins us now. so you're not talking about inflation enough, i guess? so how is -- how -- how does -- how do you campaign with somebody who, first of all, is posttruth. lives in this posttruth trump world, who once said, trump was america's hitler, and now praises trump, and who claims to be a conservative, but says that the federal government should seize brookings institute, all of its assets and other think tanks and the federal government should seize and take control of institutions that disagree with their trump world view? how do you -- nerve her to do that, actually. how do you campaign against

somebody that -- well, sort of sounds like a fascist, if you're talking about seizing, like, think tanks that disagree with you? >> you know, joe, thanks for the opportunity to be here. you just stay focused. like we have been focused on the economy the last 18 months since i announced last april. how do we get a tax cut to workers to help put a little money in their pocket, to be able to deal with int flation issue? how do we focus on the things i mentioned in the debate the inflation reduction act, infrastructure bill, the chips act. ohio was front and center dominating these industries of the future. just saw honda back a factory plant where i'm from, my congressional district. we have five different vehicles in the old general motors plant all electric. two or three cars a truck and tractor with a battery plant across the street. so we're focused on how do we

bring back manufacturing, focus on the economy, give a tax cut to workers to help them ride out the inflation and try to dismiss j.d. as being an extremist weirdo, which, of course, he is, and everybody knows it now. you've got to remember they spent about $15 million on trump's america's hitler to, he kisses his ass and all of a sudden trump endorses him. like, people in ohio have been hearing about j.d. vance's fraudulence since the republican primary and we're just building on it and why we're going to win this thing. ohio is not a radical state like j.d. vance s. congressman in your district as well as others in ohio, i assume more and more workers in between the ages of 48, 55, who have been laid off, lost their jobs whatever. a lot of democrats running for office around this country tell it. we're going to send you to get a masters degree in mechanical

engineering. bring you back into the workforce. what do you do to tell those people in that netherworld having lost employment or reduced employment? what do you tell them? >> well, we got a lot going on now, mike. like, i was out at the general motors plant now owned by foxconn. we were announcing a tractor, an electric tractor used for farming, for vineyards, for specialty crops and i met a guy who lost his job at a place called denman tire about 15 years ago or so. he's now working for foxconn. he was so excited. he has such a good job. knows he'll have security. we're seeing now, 1,5 hadn't jobs at the battery plant. seeing the chips act leading to $100 billion investment in ohio. it's going to take about 7,000 union construction workers to build that thing, and then 5,000 for the next ten years. like, our union construction

guys between natural gas, the infrastructure bill and these new projects, people are going back to work. people have good paying jobs and we just got to keep it going. thiv them a tax doubt absorb the inflation, because these construction guys are still driving. they're paying $3.85, whatever the gas may be. we still got to put money in their pocket in the short term but jobs are coming and they're jobs of the future this has been my plan for 20 years on how do we get the steel belt that went to the rust belt could be a tech belt and while we're going to win this race, mike. we are doing it and j.d. vance has no clue. we need -- two big donors, mitch mcconnell and peter thiel. 50,000 low donor dollars and fuel this campaign, go to our website chip in a few bucks and we're going to bring it home and shock

the world. >> i'm not raising a few bucks. you campaigned and worked yourself in a tie in this race in a state a lot of people said gone red. plus eight for donald trump. tim ryan doesn't have a chance. you're in a tie now. we spoke a few weeks ago distressed concern about money and your campaign to win. have you received more support given how important your race is? >> no. we're out here on our own. >> why? >> what's that? >> why is that? why do you suspect that is? >> no idea. willie, i've been coming on your show for a long time and it started with complaints about the strategic decisions in branding and about the national democrats, and just, you know, i have -- come to grips with the fact that we got to do this on our own, but kind of love it. you know? i mean, i'm a fighter from the

mahony valley. i like the fact i'm running into this campaign kicking j.d.'s ass got him on the run with a bunch of grass root supporters in ohio. 350,000 donors, organized labor stepped up in a big way. member-to-member contact. we're going to do this thing, and if they come in, fine. but i'm not begging anybody to say, you know, i'm a good candidate, like we don't beg for help in ohio. we go out, kick rear end and that's what's happening here. i'm telling you. j.d. vance is on the run. this guy upset the ukrainian community, which is 100,000 people at least in ohio. he's offended women with his national abortion ban and the fact he thinks women should stay in violent relationships, called rape inconvenient. like, women are coming out to vote. early vote for democrats is up. we're going to do this thing and we're going to do it with a bunch of grass roots people, and that's how ohio does things. grind it out. work harder than j.d. vance

while he's sipping wine and eating cheese, i'm taking a bus up and down the ohio river and that's why we're going to win. >> congressman ryan, you just raid out a devastating argument against your opponent, but a lot of democrats i'm talking to here in washington want to -- not just from you, from democrat ace across the nation, a positive case. do that now. give us a positive closing argument for your candidacy? >> i'm the most ohio candidate here by far. j.d. vance abandoned the state. went to california and became a vulture capitalist and is a puppet to peter thiel and mitch mcconnell, who gave him $55 million. we are seeing benefits of initiatives i'm pushing. bipartisan infrastructure bill will create 600,000 jobs in ohio. chips act landing $100 billion investment from intel and other companies dominating the future 5ir7bd clip manufacturing. inflation reduction act i pushed very hard will allow us to

increase natural gas production, hopefully liquefy it, ship it to allies in europe, maybe to china so we can get the world, get off of this dirty energy. since the inflation reduction act we've seen huge investments into ohio in electric vehicles, solar panels up in toledo. again, the chips manufacturing, honda announced a $4 billion investment. we got a lot of positive things going on and j.d. vance wants to turn the clock back. so, again, go to timforoh.com send a few bucks and we'll come back election night with a big victory. >> congressman tim ryan. ohio's democratic nominee for u.s. senate in a dead heat with 13 days until election day with j.d. vance. congressman thanks for your time. appreciate it. >> thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll go back to pennsylvania to see how voters in the keystone state are reacting now to last night's debate between dr. oz and john fetterman. nbc's dasha burns joins us with her late effort reporting there.

plus, key moments from the debate in michigan last night between governor gretchen whitmer and her challenger republican tudor dixon. governor whitmer joins us top of our next hour. also ahead, donald trump was angry on his social media site with bob woodward after the veteran journalist released audio excerpts of his interview with the former president. woodward is back with us this morning with new clips from those interviews. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred.

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guts to put our families first. dut don bolduc said hell no to supporting a new law lowering drug prices and the same don bolduc that will decimate medicare. his dangerous ideas will cost our families thousands and take us backwards. >> a first look at the new ad from democratic senator maggie hassan in her fight for re-election in new hampshire after being up double dump its a month ago, a recent poll shows her republican opponent don bolduc within the margin of error. senator hassan joins us now. thanks for your time this morning. how do you account for bolduc closing the gap in this poll? >> we've known this is a really, really close race. remember when i won the seat in 2016 unseating a republican by 1,017 votes. i'm focused right now, making sure granite stators know about my record of doing everything from lowering prescription drug prices to getting high-speed

internet in every corner of our state, boosting manufacturing, fixing our roads and bridges making sure our veterans get the care and support they've earned and deserve and extremism with my opponent, don bolduc wants to lower social security, a yes for a nationwide abortion ban and in vitro fertilization and an election denier and he's working hard to reveal those extreme pingses from granite voters. my job over the next 13 days talking about the difference in this race and making sure we're in the air and on the ground talking about the stakes. >> senator hassan, a big, huge market basket you know in manchester, new hampshire. if you were in there this morning what would be the top issues you think on voters' minds? abortion, or gas and groceries? if it was the latter, gas and

groceries, what can you as a united states senator do to lessen their load? >> well, sure, and what i would be hearing in market basket is gas, set the price of agos now. shot up extraordinarily. people are concerned about their pocketbooks and also concerned about their individual rights. i'm hearing about all of it. inflation is hurting way too many granite state families and small businesses, and that's why i'm focused on lowering costs we can right now. an important piece of the medicare negotiation package we put together finally allowing medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices means seniors on insulin will feel the impact of that in january. we have more to do to lower energy costs. it's obviously getting close to winter here in new hampshire. people are really worried about heating their homes. that's why i have led a

bipartisan push to get the administration to release more home heating fuel from the reserve, and why i led a successful bipartisan push to get $1 billion in additional heating assistance this winter. i also support suspending the gas tax until we see a significant reduction in gas prices. now, my opponent has come out against that. he has come out against the medicare negotiation provisions and he would eliminate social security which jacks people's prices up. last thing i'll point out is the energy provisions in the inflation reduction act really do go after energy costs in the short term. at least for middle-class homeowners who can get tax cuts for investing in home efficiency right now, but also breaks the hold that big oil has on this country and this economy, which is so important moving forward to lower our overall energy courts. so i'm talking to them about that. but i'm also hearing from grand

stators a live free or die state about people's concerns that my opponent's position on reproductive rights means that women, half of the population, will be relegated to second-class citizenship. people deal with this in their daily lives and expect us to deal with this all at once, too. >> good morning, senator. jonathan lemire. i worked just over the border in tewksbury, massachusetts. i want to talk about the rhetoric your candidate has been using. for a long time he was an election denier saying donald trump won. since waffled on that. also talking with conspiracy theorists and he's not alone in the republican party. what is your concern about those theories, the dangerous rhetoric so infiltrated our politics today? >> look, my opponent is really, really extreme and has been embracing all sorts of conspiracy theories, but i want

to bring this back to what the people of new hampshire should understand about the impact of his extremism and his election denial as a part of that extreme extremeism. when you have extreme views by lon bolduc, way out of the way where voters are. being against medicare, taking away social security. the fact he's also an election denier means he doesn't believe he has to accept election results. that means he doesn't have to listen to the people of new hampshire about what's important to them, and address those things, because he thinks he can just reject your votes. so this is somebody who is running for office who does not believe he is accountable to voters, which means he believes he can impose an extreme agenda on the people of this state, and he's working really hard to

mislead people on it. i'm talking to people about the bipartisan record i have of delivering results in the way that granite stators solve problems all the time. putting differences aside, get things done. proud to have been ranked most bipartisan in the country because that's who my constituents are. will we continue to have a senator who believes her job is to listen to people, address the things that matter to them, that they bring forward and ask plea me to work on or have an extremist imposing an extreme senator who jacks prices up. that's the stakes here. >> maggie hassan locked in a tight race in new hampshire. this segment brought to you by market basket serving new england since 1917. coming up next, poll workers essential to the democratic process but the political

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at what point would you be willing to say america has a fascist position or link under hitler in the 1930s we never have to aware about fascism. >> the problem, i don't want to demonize tense of millions of republicans and that i think there's a danger when -- >> i'm not asking you to. comment on trump and trumpism. not the voters. >> yeah, but maga, talking about maga republicans many if not most republicans are still sympathetic of trump. if we go down the route saying they're fascist or semifascist.

>> joe biden didn't say that. nobody said that. deal with the if a non nom na. trump and trumpism, philosophy. are you not worried about its fascist -- >> something can be authoritarian and bad without us obsessing over the fascist label. >> i saw that exchange, trumpism, fascism and whether or not the united states democracy is in crisis. a fascinating conversation and wanted to continue it here on the show. mehdi joins us now, a senior fellow at brookings institution and contributing writer for "the atlantic." the same brookings institution that j.d. vance says that republicans should seize and take all the assets up and take control and a new book "the problem with democracydemocracy"

you know what i come from on this debate. we're talking about a debate over fascism. you work in a place that j.d. vance and peter thiel and other people who have actually been talking about institutions that, they're suggesting the government should seize, because you all don't think like they do at brookings. is there a real problem with the rise of fascism in america? >> yeah. so -- sort of like what i said to mehdi in our debate yesterday. i think that once we start using the fascist language we distract ourselves and we get into an academic debate about whether something rises to the level of fascism. we do have a problem of existential politics, something i emphasize in my book where you feel like elections aren't about expressing a preference. they're about averting the

apocalypse. people say these are the most important elections of our lifetime is a telltale sign the stakes are too high because it shouldn't be the most important election of your lifetime and probably isn't. a lifetime is a long time to live. once we use language like fascist, however bad j.d. vance and folks like him are, and they are pretty scary. there are millions of republicans with scary views, believe's big lie about a stolen election, but -- >> right. >> -- if we ratchet things up, where does this stop? you might say republicans don't extend benefit of the doubt to democrats. so why should we? but then if we don't do it who else is there? there's only two main parties in this country, and if they're not going to do it, then it's up to us to try to do the right thing and lower the existential stakes of politics. otherwise, what's the alternative to that? you know, the only alternative is one side defeating the other, or using pressure and coercion

to defeat the other. and we run a democracy and shouldn't want that. >> all right. mehdi, what's your response? >> so my response is, this is the most important election, democracy is at stake. complacency for lack of a better word what we face of fascism on the right relates to the fact he doesn't quite see the threat to democracy, which underlies all of this. we talked about this. he's taken a lot of heat on twitter for his tweet where he said we're at a high point a fr known him for many years, and it's one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard. you have black voters from texas to florida to georgia to ohio, having their vote suppressed and you have in nevada election

workers being pounded out of their jobs and getting death threats, and in arizona, they faced armed people when they turned up, and hundreds of people running for office next month for election deniers. you can't just say does it meet the bar of fascism if your bar is just the 1930s. >> first of all, it's possible to hold two thoughts at once simultaneously, and i will try and do that, and republicans are bad -- of course not all of them but many of them have views on elections that i just said i disagree with, and liberals don't have a great record when it comes to respecting democratic outcomes either, and we can go back to trump's election and how liberals

reacted to that, and the russian investigation, and delegitimizing trump right when he entered into office, and i agree trump was a terrible president, and democracy is the right to make the wrong choice. i think many on my side, on the left side of the spectrum were not respectful of that result, and we can talk about other things. okay, and so -- >> democracy is not just about the right to have your choice, and it's about the right to vote, which is at stake right now. i find this whole liberals don't respect outcomes -- hold on, let's look at the facts. in 2000, al gore lost the popular vote and certified the result as vp in congress, and

the russia investigation was set up by a doj on trump's watch. this is absurd to compare liberals saying the electoral college doesn't work compared to two -- >> that's why i said you can have two thoughts as once, and why can't we look inward and consider our own faults because that's what we should do in a democracy. the mueller investigation, i think there's an argument to be made that it did try and delegitimize trump, and that's how conservatives perceived it. they saw there was an attack on their right to vote for donald trump. yes, hillary won the popular vote, and we base our elections whether we like it or not based on electoral colleges --

>> let me jump in. let me say, as i say to my republican friends, if you think there's such thing as a russian hoax, read the mueller report and then read marco rubio's intel committee report from the united states senate that said donald trump's 2016 campaign actually caused a serious counter intelligence threat to the united states. so i understand -- i really do, i understand what you are doing and i understand what you are doing because my wife tells me i do it too much, trying to find common ground, trying to figure out how to stitch this fabric of our country back together again. i just got to say, though, and i want to ask you to do what he has been asking you to do in the debate, and let's do this, let's separate the voters, let's

separate the voters of donald trump and let's separate the republican party, and i want to look at some of the things donald trump has done and then we get back to the fascist question, and we can talk about the rallies and in the rallies donald trump saying beat up protesters, you know, get them carried out on a stretcher, i will pay for your legal bills if you do that. praising a member of congress for beating up a member of the press, simply because the member of the press asked him a question about health care reform, and all this violent imagery donald trump has celebrated. having rallies where he's telling people of color who happen to be members of congress to go back to where they came from. this ultra nationalists world

view. and then, of course, january 6th, summoning people to washington, d.c. and giving a speech and pushing them up towards the capitol, and while rioting sending out texts and attacking mike pence knowing pence was on the run with his family. i guess my question is, if this doesn't fit the question of fascism, what does? >> well, joe, many of the things you mentioned are bad, authoritarian, anti-immigrant and anti-minority rights, but those things are not necessarily anti-democratic, and the insurrection was, and donald trump does not respect outcomes, no doubt about it, and the list of things, those are things that normal conservative republicans believe on anti-immigration

policy, and on muslims and so forth. we have to separate them and say that it is -- you know -- >> wait, wait, what about -- hold on a second. i know, and i will let you finish. i forgot the muslim registry, which when he did it in december of 2015, i said, my god, this is out of germany in 1933, is it not? >> as a muslim, i was very frightened by that, and i think that was a scary thing. luckily he didn't follow-through on that, but ultimately voters have the right to vote for somebody who has crazy ideas like the muslim ban. those are ill liberal, and those go against individual rights -- >> can i jump in? there's a lot of straw men here, and nobody is saying all trump voters are fascists, and you

used the word authoritarian, and many voters would be upset calling authoritarian, and so let's agree he's a threat to democracy and not just anti-immigration, and he wanted to build a motor and put alligators in it and shoot immigrants in the legs, and -- >> i didn't hear about the alligator thing, but if i could just finish the thought here. the danger is, i just want to put the question back to you, what are you suggesting we do if trump wins fair and square, if he wins in 2024, are you going to respect that result? >> i don't accept the premise of 2024, and if he -- >> no, if he wins freely and fairly and the results are clear. >> right now they are taking steps to make sure the 2024

election is not a free and fair election. you -- >> you are not willing to accept that outcome, then, and that's concerning to me. >> i am willing to accept the outcome of a free and fair election. and as of right now do you believe the 2024 election will be fair if black people are -- >> black people the denied to vote? that's the first i have heard that the vote has been taken away from them. i mean -- this is exaggerated rhetoric that is raising the stakes, and -- >> do you not think our democracy is under threat? it's a simple question. do you think election workers are being harassed, and death threats to election official, and you think none of that is

affecting the free and fair election in 2024, seriously? >> well, and -- >> stop the both sides. >> okay. when you raise the specter of a fascist threat it justifies taking extraordinary measures to suppress that threat, and that's why sometimes people like the idea of suppressing democracy in order to save it. we think so much is at stake we have to do anything it takes to prevent trump or somebody like him from winning in 2024. that can lead to overreach. i worry your rhetoric can lead us to do things we should not do in a democratic context, and for us as liberals to go too far into demonizing our opponents and the other side. that's not sustainable in a democracy. >> we're going to have to leave it here. we're going to have to leave it here. thank you both for coming. we need to do this again, like

every day. so thank you both, and of course, the mehdi hassan show airs on sundays. we'll be right back with claire mccaskill and chris matthews. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. i love san francisco, but i'm working overtime to stay here. now is not the time to raise taxes. i'm voting no on propositions m and o, because the cost of everything is going up. san francisco collects more tax revenue

than nearly any city in america. but our streets are dirty and public safety is not getting better. i'm working hard to live within my budget. the city should too. join me in voting no on m and o. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o.

as a physician, i have been in the room when there's some difficult conversations happening. i don't want the federal government involved with that at all. i want women, doctors, local political leaders letting democracy put the best ideas forwards. >> welcome back to "morning joe." we have mike barnicle and elise gordon still with us, and let's bring into the conversation,

chris matthews and claire mccaskill. we'll get into the entire debate, but one of the clips that is being most talked about right now is dr. oz, first of all, saying i'm a doctor and then saying i want local officials to make life or death decisions for women, to make decisions that will impact their lives for the next 50 or 60 years. i want to leave that to local officials. how do you think that's going to play with voters? >> well, there's two kinds of transparency, joe. you talked a lot about transparency as it relates to fetterman's struggle with communication after a major stroke. no question that is obvious. i think he tried to down play his ability to communicate before the debate, and you saw that last night. there's another kind of transparency, and that has to do with fraud, and here's the best

example of a lack of transparency from that debate. mehmet oz had the nerve to say abortion should be between women, doctors and local officials. what he is saying is my state has the right to tell a rape victim who is 14 years old that she must give birth to the rapist's baby. he's saying that's okay. and he refused another form of transparency in refusing to answer questions, and he refused to answer question on whether or not he would vote for a federal ban on abortion, country wide, and he would not answer that question. i have bias here because we investigated oz when i was in the senate, and i was chair of the consumer protection committee and i have a bad attitude about people who give false hope. i struggled with weight my entire adult life, and when

people struggle with their weight they look for easy answers, and this is a man that has so little integrity that he went on television and looked straight in the camera like he did last night, and he said you could take a magic pill and you will be thin, and he did it over and over again, and our investigation was damning about this man's ability to look honest when he looks into a tv camera, and that's the transparency i think pennsylvania voters should worry about. >> it's interesting that has not played a bigger role in this campaign, chris matthews, the lying, the constant pushing of, like, magic beans, i have a magic bean that will make you lose weight and make you look younger, and all of these crazy claims. his claim last night that he

wanted local officials to weigh in on one of the most personal decisions that a woman is going to have to make in their life, and you know pennsylvania, how is that going to play in scranton and in the philly suburbs? >> we also saw the performance of fetterman, and let's talk about oz, and he came away as a trumper, and he is the guy that did all that for history. i watched elise jordan on the program and i watched her reaction on the quote from dr. oz, and we had a good law under the supreme court, roe v. wade, and it clearly did protect the fetus of the unborn child later in the term, and he didn't

defend that and he said we have to go to local jurisdictions and get away from the supreme court and go to complete local jurisdictions to decide this thing, and i think he told us he didn't like roe v. wade, and you had a plan to do it and now you are throwing it back. pennsylvania may have a decent -- a decent abortion law, and other states are not going to have them. is he going to leave it up to local up to local politicians to decide these things? he said that last night on pennsylvania. we have michigan governor standing by, also a major debate last night. >> when governor whitmer tells you this is going to be roe,

it's not, but it would be the most radical abortion law in the country, and the only thing that has something similar is china. >> she's the one that said a 14-year-old child raped by her uncle is a perfect example of somebody who should not have reproductive rights and the ability to choose, and she went further to say it's healing for a person who is raped to carry that child to term. i could not disagree more, and she has proven you cannot trust her on this issue. >> and michigan governor, gretchen whitmer is joining us now. how suspect do you think, abig do you think abortion is at this point, and it was a big topic of

discussion last night for you all. >> i think when they reversed roe -- this criminalizes doctors and nurses, and we would have gone overnight to a pro choice state to having one of the most extreme laws on the books and that's why i filed a lawsuit, and it's hanging by a threat, and the only reason michigan is still a pro choice state is because of my lawsuit. i hope we codify roe into law. it does not do what my opponent says it does, and it says michigan women could still make their own choices about their reproductive rights. >> and then your opponent really attacked the results of michigan's testing of students

in reading and math. how big of an issue has education been in this race? >> education is a huge issue in michigan, and here's why. my opponent is being bank roled by betsy devos, and you know her after her stint in the donald trump administration, and she wants to divest half a billion dollar out of public schools, and i just worked with the republican legislature to get our kids back on track, and that would be the biggest setback. if we want to make sure our kids are prepared and improve scores, we need to keep them safe, which means we need gun safety measures and we have to continue to invest in their education and support teachers, and that's what we have been doing. if my opponent is the next governor, we will fall backward. >> i want to stick with the education issue for a moment, and one of the sharpest

exchanges last night involved banning several books from libraries, and you countered with a shooting at a school, and talk about the concern around crt or sex or what is considered inappropriate literature and your counter with regards to violence in schools in michigan? >> there's a community debate happening here in michigan about a certain number of books that were available in the library. i will always support the parental's ability to help their kids out, and these were not easily retrieved materials but she's dividing a community for her own political commitment, and the number one killer of children is gun violence. my opponent will offer nothing in terms of solving that and keeping our kids safer. she said the best case scenario

is to have more guns in schools so we could have somebody to shoot the shooter. i couldn't disagree more, and the best case scenario is presenting the gun shooter in the first place, and red flag laws and other laws would go a long way to she's offering onlys and prayers and that doesn't work. >> all of these issues have been addressed in the pags few minutes, guns, education, abortion, and they are critical issues, there's no doubt about it. but overriding this and overlapping this, i would suspect in michigan as in other states is the daily combat with the price of inflations, and

what could you do as governor? >> we made record investments and bringing down the cost of daycare and leveling the tuition barriers and so people to get good-paying jobs, and we paid down $14 billion in debt, and we have our credit rating upgraded and now we are in a position where we could do more. i have proposed repealing the retirement tax in michigan, and i proposed tripling the income tax credit for people working full time and can't keep their head above water. these are concrete ways people can get relief as global inflation continues to pinch and we feel the pinch on that, and we know election deniers pose a huge threat to democracy and my opponent is one of them. i saw a stat the other day that had the top ten threats to american democracy, and three

were candidates here in michigan, and they still say joe biden didn't win the last election and none of them will pledge to accept the will of the people in a future election, and that's downright dangerous. >> thank you for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. chris matthews, juan fournier yesterday talked about how all the races in michigan are tightening up, and we know new hampshire is tightening up, and the wisconsin senate race, marquette poll had johnson up six points and now it's within the margin of error, dead even. i could keep going, but there are so many close, tight races. >> yeah. >> what do you think swings it

over the last two weeks? i know people are coming home, and when they go into the voting booth, is it going to be, like, i don't know, like 1980, where you saw in the carter administration things breaking against republicans, or is it going to be like 1998 where republicans were supposed to have a massive pro impeachment win, and instead it was newt gingrich who was escorted out of town a week later. which way do you think it will break? >> i think the closer it gets to home, in other words, to election day, the more people worry about their home, and they worry about providing for their families, men and women both. they are talking about -- they are going to talk about the inflation issue, and it's going to be food prices at 11%, and the gas prices still up to where they were before. it's a big chunk of your income. it's not just how much it cost to pay for gas when you stop at the pump, it's what percentage of your of course goes into that like a big taxation program.

it's real, and i think that hits closer to home as you get to election day. i think the abortion issue probably hit the clock a little too early, and it has faded a bit, but i think it's going to be jobs and economics and the threat of a recession, and it's -- you mentioned jimmy carter, and he took all the heat for inflation, and there was no flame to go to reagan and he was just a challenger, and it's a good time to be a challenger. i want to say something about the election deniers all around this place, including dr. oz. the fact of the matter is these people believe in elections and they know votes count and they know these elections are honest in this country. we have honest elections in this camera, and they admit it in the way they are campaigning, and the great thing about our democracy, it's real, and even a

governor as good as whitmer, and she's great, and even in new york city the governor has to defend herself, and most cases they have to defend themselves, and grassley has to fight for his life at 87 or whatever he is. it's a real democracy and it's vibrant and really working and we should be proud of that, and the election deniers should shut up, because that's the problem, their voices. >> we have more people voting than ever before, and it's safer than ever before, and the guy who was in charge of donald trump in the trump administration was in charge of monitoring the election said it was the safest and most election ever, and i went out and showed them my driver's license, and they double-checked and they double-checked my signature and they did all of these things, all of these safeguards, and they were so good and so complete that as i was walking around, i just turned around and

i thanked all of them for what they were doing for democracy. it's such a secure system, and it's so deeply offensive that these people, these election deniers, all because a failed game show host who lost the white house, the house and the senate is telling them to undermine american democracy because they lost one election. how repulsive, how deeply offensive is that? >> it's about as bad as you can get. i mean, basically what trump has stood for is a simple proposition, if i win i win, if i lose, you cheated. that's not what we teach our children, and that's not the right way to live your lives. i have to tell you, joe, i am deeply offended at the notion that there are people in tactical gear with long guns and masks and bullet proof vests

sitting, watching people cast their ballots. i mean, what are they doing? that clearly is an effort to somehow intimidate people from showing up and doing a very safe way of voting. they have been doing it this way in arizona for years, and they have had mail-in ballots and drop boxes, and the stupid thing is it's a lie, and every vote that is dropped in a box has to be verified, every single one. so it's really sad to me that these nuts are sitting out there with their guns and masks and bullets and bullet proof vests acting as if somehow they are protecting democracy when they are embarrassing democracy. >> think about this, willie, that donald trump, when he was running said, the american dream

is dead. then donald trump is president for four years and suddenly everything is okay with america. now donald trump is out of office because he does what donald trump does politically, he loses for himself and his party, and suddenly all he does is go around tearing down america, talking about how bad america is. you have republicans attacking the united states military, calling the strongest military force in the history of the planet, calling them weak and woke because they would rather attack the men and women of the united states armed forces than actually admit that they are extraordinary, and they do extraordinary work every day. constant attacks, whether it's the military, or whether it's american democracy, and whether it's voting, like i said, and you have people from the peter

thiel school saying let's disagree with institutions that disagree with that, and masters believes that, and j.d. vance believes that, and their love of america is contingent on their side winning. their acceptance of madisonen democracy is contingent on them winning. i can't imagine hating america that much, i really can't. i can't imagine hating america so much that you want to end american democracy and the american experiment and end madisonian democracy because your side lost one time. history will not be kind to them. >> they moved on to the institutions like the fbi, and in new hampshire the opponent running up there said he would

be interested in abolishing the fbi, and that's because the fbi executed the search warrant at mar-a-lago because the previous president stole documents and put them in his basement. and the disease that has spread impacted poll workers across the country as well. they are facing increased pressures and many say they have experienced threats, and we heard that from workers in georgia, and blayne alexander is in atlanta with that part of the story. good morning. >> reporter: willie, good morning to you. you are right, before 2020, before the 2020 election, election workers were a group of people that did not get a lot of attention, and a lot of people did not pay attention to secretary of state races, for instance, and certainly the people that work at the precincts where you cast your ballot largely flew under the

radar, and the 2020 election changed that and it's because so many people started to receive threats and were targeted by a number of conspiracy theories, and perhaps no more than here in georgia and specifically fulton county. i will introduce you to one woman who said she never thought she would be a poll worker but thinks it's a sense of duty, and she said despite all of the headaches and despite people coming up and saying they don't believe in the process, she says she's not walking away. angie jones never thought she would become a poll worker. >> i voted, you know, as most americans do, and i never have been involved in the political process. >> but the 2016 election changed all of that. >> i needed to be part of the solution. >> her solution, training to be a poll manager in fulton county, georgia. >> people that come to your polls and say i don't trust this process, what do you want them to know about the work you do?

>> first of all, come and join us. take the training. if people would understand the process more, i feel like they would be less fearful that their votes are not secure. >> angie has worked every election since 2018, but none like georgia's 2020 runoff that gave democrats control of the senate. >> after the 2020 election, did you notice the change? >> immediately i noticed a change. i had a lot of voters that came in angry, distrustful. >> and election workers were increasingly targeted by conspiracy theories, like this mother and daughter that also worked in fulton county. >> it turned my life upsidedown. >> one in five election workers say they are unlikely to serve through 2024, and one in six personally experienced threats. angie said she will never forget asking a friend to sign up. >> she said no, she was afraid,

and i remember she said to me, people will say things to me that they would never say to you. >> because she's a woman of color? >> because she's a woman of color. >> georgia was at the center of efforts to overturn the 2020 election, something election official, gabriel sterling, called dangerous. >> it has all gone too far. all of it. >> are you concerned there are going to be similar threats this time? >> there will be, but you have to be aware of it and have to over prepare. >> do you ever think about pocking away? >> no, and my responsibility is to do everything i can in my power at that precinct to protect the vote. >> she walked me through the training process, and she said if you are working the polls and at the precinct, you have to go

through an hour's long training, and they are briefed on everything from just how to work the machines and how to mark the ballots, all the way down to election law, and it's something she has to become well versed in as well, and different officials say that after 2020, it has gone one of two ways. people say i don't want the headache and stress and i am walking away from this, and there are a group of people that say they are more determined and they want to come back and essentially help poll democracy, in their words, so an interesting perspective we don't hear a lot about, willie. >> it was great to hear that woman say i am not going anywhere, i am going to do my job. thank you so much. claire mccaskill, you are familiar with people like this, having worked in politics all your life, and the people that step up and are the engine of the process, and allow democracy to continue, and to hear people like ruby freeman testify that

the fbi called her and told her to get out of her own house on january 6th and to stay away for a couple weeks because people might be coming to get you based on lies that rudy giuliani and donald trump told, as an american, not as a political person but as an american. >> i was thrilled to be part of a group that selected ruby freeman as part of the courage award last year, and there are literally thousands and thousands of people out there that work for little pay or volunteer, and frankly, they are what makes our elections so secure, and not enough americans understand how desperate and divided our election system is that is locally based. frankly, the secretaries of state in most states don't have the power unless they just go in with a gun or in broad daylight and try to manually do something weird. the power is really with local

officials and they are the ones that administer elections and recruit volunteers and political parties recruit volunteers to watch, both political parties, and there's no one system that could be hacked and no computer software that could be accessed and change votes. that's why we need to really celebrate these people. they do a tremendous service to our country and they do not deserve the crap they are getting right now just doing their jobs usually without much pay or positive attention. >> amen, and they are back doing that right now as votes start to come in. thank you for being back this morning. we appreciate it. ahead on "morning joe," bob woodward will join us with new audio from his interviews with donald trump, and bob has never

revealed the notes from his interview with trump until now. and then darsha burns is reporting on how voters are reacting to last night's debate. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. surance, here's a pool party. look what i brought! liberty mutual! they customize your home insurance... so you only pay for what you need! ♪young people having a good time with insurance.♪ ♪young people.♪ ♪good times.♪ ♪insurance!♪ only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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california, pay as little as zero dollars mountains, oceans, natural wonders, diverse and creative people. but when the out-of-state corporations behind prop 27 look at california, they see nothing but suckers. they wrote prop 27 to give themselves 90% of the profits from online sports betting in california. other states get much more. why is prop 27 such a suckers deal for california? because the corporations didn't write it for us. they wrote it for themselves. vo: climate change is fueling a wildfire crisis. destroying our forests. threatening our communities. polluting our air. prop 30 taxes those making over 2 million a year. no one else pays a penny.

30 will reduce the tailpipe emissions that drive climate change. and prevent wildfires and toxic smoke. so we have clean air to breathe. this is about our kids' future. omar: prop 30 helps contain fires and combat tailpipe emissions. vote yes on 30. could you see abortion being completely banned in pennsylvania in the near future? >> you know, not to make it a race issue but a lot of caucasian women would fight. they are the strongest proponents against this. >> i don't have -- i should not have the right to, you know, comment or tell a woman what she can do or not do with her body, so as far as the timeframe, and as a man, i think, you know, i don't really have that much of a say. >> i don't think men should be making decisions about women. >> how many of you think it was a bad thing to overturn roe v.

wade? everyone. is anybody unsure or on the fence about it? >> it's so hard because i see both sides of it. again, i understand a woman's right. don't tell us what we can or can't do, and i also see the right of people that want to save that child, so it's such a -- it's just such a hard decision. i don't think anybody has any right to take anything away from a person's individual choice. >> i don't like the idea of saying, oh, yes, absolutely, you can have an abortion with whatever, but at the same time, i am not the one that has to live with that. i don't think that i can say, oh, no, we should not the have restrictions or we should. >> if you let the government start restricting things, and i worked for the government for 35 years, and they can change the rules on a drop of a dime, and who is in charge changes the

rules, and everything changes the rules, and if the democrats are in, you have these rules and if republicans are in, there's these rules, and if they start doing that with my body or daughter's body or grandchild's body, that's not their business, that's my business. >> does anybody oppose a third trimester abortion? >> nobody feels good about aborting a third trimester baby, and we understand it's situational, and it's not for us to say. none of us feel good about it, but nobody should make that decision except the mother. >> do you feel like democrats have done enough to protect reproductive rights for women? >> it's not just them, but it's congress and the house itself. >> honestly, i feel like they've done some to hurt it because they made so much of it about

women's reproductive rights and abortion, and it's the -- you've made it such a huge focus that now people are saying, oh, we have to fight this with everything. they think that's how to win votes, but, like, make it maybe not so much of a focus and then people will lighten up about it and, like, the far right republicans are, like, oh, we have to ban everything will disappear because suddenly they are not having to challenge everybody has to have a right for an abortion even a day before the baby is due. >> does anybody describe themselves as pro life? >> i am pro life. >> how many people? >> i am pro life. >> i don't put either label on myself because i have mixed opinions about it. >> there should be the ability for choices to be made under certain situations.

>> what are the exceptions that even though you consider yourself pro life, that you believe should be permitted under the law? do you support an exception for rape? >> yes. >> yes. >> everyone? a show of hands. what about life of the mother? >> absolutely. >> yes. >> incest? >> 100%. >> so even though you describe yourself as pro life, you are willing to have these exceptions under the law? >> contraception itself should be much more readily available than it is now? >> over-the-counter or without parental consent? >> even more severe than that, having surgeries should be more readily available. >> show of hands, do you think it was a good thing, the

decision? >> i believe abortion is murder, and i am a catholic white man, and at the end of the day you are not standing in front of me to be judged and that's not my decision to make, and i think it's murder and should be illegal. >> elise, we have seen you do focus groups with voters in georgia, in pennsylvania, and we'll run a day of trump voters saying something, and everybody's hair will fall out, and then the next day you will ask questions on abortion, and of course, it's very ambiguous for them. they consider themselves pro life, but i have noticed in georgia with trump voters with the conspiracy theories, i always talk about that man who said, hey, i am a man, it's none of my business. that's the thing we keep

hearing. here's the great irony about the most divisive issue in the last 30 years, and it appears to be the single unifying issue with people whether they are in downtown philadelphia, if they are black voters in downtown philadelphia, or they are white trump voters in western pennsylvania, there's a real reluctance to say let's be idealogical on abortion. i find that striking. what a huge gulf between politicians in washington, d.c., and then voters on this side, and i am not saying they are all pro abortion or taking the democrats' position, but i am just saying they are so more

nuanced about it than state legislators. >> joe, voters look at the issue with much more complexity and see the shades of gray in a way that politicians, when they discuss it, it just doesn't come across, and i think your point about how you have a trump voter in atlanta, georgia, saying, i am a man and this is not my choice, and the same thing is echoed by a democratic man in philadelphia. men have certainly gotten that memo, american men, maybe just not male politicians, but this issue really seems to be hurting republicans if they are completely -- look how the oklahoma governor's race is in play, and it's not a good issue for republicans to say no

abortions ever, no exceptions, and if i was in the fetterman campaign, i would clip that ad of what oz said last night. the biden administration thought it had a secret deal with saudi arabia for oil production, but the crown prince had other otherwise. we'll talk about that when "morning joe" returns.

a new report in the "new york times" offer an in depth account on what went on behind the scenes between the biden administration and the saudi arabia, and earlier this month saudi arabia and russia worked to guide opec plus to slash oil production by 2 million barrels

a day, and the move shocked the biden administration as "the times" reports has led the white house to reassess america's relationship with the kingdom. joining us is mark mazetti. how was the rug pulled out from under him? >> we call the controversy before the trip, the idea that president biden after having committed to treating the saudis as a pariah during the campaign, makes the decision to visit saudi arabia. some of the aides started having discussions with saudi arabia officials about what they could get out of the trip and one of the things foremost on the table was to increase oil production as a means of lowering gas

prices. of course this was something contributing -- high gas prices was contributing to inflation, and so essentially what was in place that was reinforced in july was that the saudis month by month would push opec to increase oil through august, and then september through december, 200,000 barrels a day for each of those months. that started to work, and you started to see elements of this deal in place through the summer, and the saudis started boosting production, and slowly over time, that commitment started to erode, and then we saw last -- two weeks ago opec and russia doing the opposite, slashing oil production, which, of course, infuriated the white house. >> thank you for sharing your piece with us.

coming up, we will get back to politics. less than two weeks until the mid-term election, jim mussina managed president obama's re-election campaign, and he joins us next to break down the state of play. "morning joe" is back in a moment. s rewith you.es try. hope. fail. no one should suffer like that. i started cosentyx®. five years clear. real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infection, some serious and a lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reaction may occur. best move i've ever made. ask your dermatologist about cosentyx®. for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are positive for acetylcholine receptor antibodies, it may feel like the world is moving without you. but the picture is changing, with vyvgart.

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>> you may ask the question, why would we play a clip of "dumb and dumber," introducing music great todd rundgren. we always take any can excuse we can to play clips of "dumb & dumber," but it is the music of todd rundgren that caught his attention. his iconic 1978 hit, "can we still be friends," written, produced, and performed by the legendary todd rundgren. the song has been covered by top artists from rod stewart to mandy moore. he produced one of the first videos to air on mtv, and was an early adopter of that format. the rock 'n' roll hall of famer is now out with a new album titled "space force," featuring collaborations with artists across generas and generations including the roots. he's also back on the road with a tribute tour, celebrating the

life and music of the great david bowie. and todd rundgren joins us now. great to have you here with us. everybody knows of you, thinks of you, first and foremost as a great songwriter, a great performer. but i love what you said about this album, you really were more like a curator and a producer. explain that. >> on my previous album, which was called "white knight," i decided i wanted to get actively collaborative with other artists, because i've been living on the island of kauai for 25 years now, something like that and it's little hard to call a session in the middle of the day. so i tended to make the records myself and i would be in an echo chamber and not getting a lot of input from other musicians. so i decided that i would collaborate more and "white

knight" was fairly aggressive in that regard. but i did most of the writing on it. and the majority of the singing on it. and i thought, if you want to collaborate, you've got to go all the way and give more control to the other artists. soy took a different approach on "space force." i went to my collaborators and said, do you have something that you started, but you couldn't finish? you know, an idea that was kind of hot and then it cooled off quick and you moved on to other things and maybe it was a great idea, but it needed different ears on it to become completed. and that's principally what this record is. it's unfinished projects by other artists that i have sort of brought to completion and foisted on the audience at large. >> yeah, that is so cool. it reminds me of the legendary story of jackson brown and "take it easy." he got the first verse, couldn't finish it up, and then glenn

frye came along. but here, the people you're working with, the roots, world series weezers, lemon twigs, a lot of others. how did you pick who you worked with here? who you collaborated with. >> well, the initial process was like the first album. i asked somebody if they want to collaborate and often, it would be someone that i had never worked before with, but i would like to work with, for instance, neil finn from crowded house and most lately from fleetwood mac. i was always a big crowd house fan, and i thought, i just read a news blush. i saw, neil flynn has joined fleetwood mac. i thought, i always liked neil's stuff and his voice, and why don't i ask if he's got something, and it turned out that he did. and that was the way it was with

most of the artists. i just, i either knew them before or i was fascinated with their work and just made an inquiry out of the blue. and there was actually more inquiries than final products in that sense, in that i couldn't -- there were some artists that i wanted to do something with, that agreed to collaborate, like, for instance, iggy pop or marilyn from garbage -- shirley manson, why did i say -- i was thinking the other manson. and we just couldn't find the thing that we were going to work on. so once you start the process, it's hard to figure out where the end of it is. because you can always think of someone that you would like to work with. and if they're amenable, then i'm there for it. >> todd, joe just mentioned jackson brown and glenn frye.

and we played the clip, you know from "dumb & dumber," your great stuff. but there was a period, arguably, you could say, i would say, from 1965 to 1985 was the greatest two decades in terms of american popular music. would you agree with that? well, we certainly went through a lot of changes, not only in terms of musical genera, but the way the business was structured. most people in the 60s and 70s and 80s found out about music by hearing it on the road. and in the 60s, through the 50s and 60s, radio was pretty much locally pramd, you know. you could have a program director and we would say, well, we think our audience would like this and the djs had a lot of freedom in terms of what to do. and it was to me like the golden age of radio. right after they discovered the

beatles and the beatles started introducing all of these new generas into music, classical rock, and that sort of thing. slots of artists were finding their way on to the radio, that might not have been there before, solely through the largess of the local program director. then radio became syndicated and every radio station in the country is playing the same songs. so, music became more of a formula, especially to the people who were in the business of it. and by the time we got to the mid-80s, there was a format change, a significant format change. it actually started with the sony walkman. it used to be, when you bought an lp, you would go home, you would put it on your turntable, and you would sit in the sweet spot and you would listen to the whole thing, because that was a quality time music experience

for you. then the sony walkman came out and you could listen to the music anywhere you went. >> but the music itself, i mean, has there ever been -- in your mind, you're a musician, a very popular one, has there ever been a period of time, when there was so much, so many classic hits that will be played 20 years from now? >> if you want to go back to the three bs, you know, bach, beethovens and brahms, you know, we -- that was a pretty interesting period of music as well. if you look at the greater arc of it, you know, my focus has never been strictly on what's happening now. there is so much that has already happened to be rediscovered. music is a cyclic thing. there are only so many notes in the western tonal scale that we can stand to listen to. so eventually we're going to be repeating everything, unless we find more creative ways to couch those musical ideas.

so music goes through these cycles of like, that's a new form, that's a new genera, let's do that, then they turn it into a formula, it becomes boring, and then everybody starts looking for another genera. by the end of '80s, everybody was ready for what they called grunge music. you know, nirvana. nirvana kind of broke the hypnosis that everyone was into, trying to create music by formula. and that happens, you know, with regularity. unfortunately right now, we're kind of the doldrums. but the bright side is that we do have, you know, that global nervous system that the internet represents. and so even what would have been the most marginal artist who could never get heard at all can at least find some kind of audience. >> todd, you seem so much in music, and you mentioned this being a doldrums area. you're also very into politics, and i would argue