so music goes through these cycles of like, that's a new form, that's a new genera, let's do that, then they turn it into a formula, it becomes boring, and then everybody starts looking for another genera. by the end of '80s, everybody was ready for what they called grunge music. you know, nirvana. nirvana kind of broke the hypnosis that everyone was into, trying to create music by formula. and that happens, you know, with regularity. unfortunately right now, we're kind of the doldrums. but the bright side is that we do have, you know, that global nervous system that the internet represents. and so even what would have been the most marginal artist who could never get heard at all can at least find some kind of audience. >> todd, you seem so much in music, and you mentioned this being a doldrums area. you're also very into politics, and i would argue that it's an

interesting period right now. so what do you make of the current state of america? >> well, i put an album out about -- i think this was in 2005, and the title of the album was "liars." and i have this tendency sometimes to be a little bit prophetic in the music that i make. and at the time, it wasn't necessarily about politics. it was just about the human tendency to be dishonest in great and small ways. in other words, if someone says, how do you like my new hairdo, and you don't like it, but you say, it looks great on way. you're trying to find ways not to lie and sometimes there's no way you can't. so i made a record about all the ways that people are dishonest with each other. i never thought that a political party would make that a canon,

you know, that essentially the reason why liz cheney isn't in the republican party was because she refused to lie. in other words, to be a republican means that you have to first and foremost be able to lie. and lie until you get cornered and then you never apologize for lying, you never admit that you lied, you just shut up at that point or go on to another lie. and that especially irks me, having done a record about all of the ways that people will consciously and unconsciously be dishonest with each other. >> all right. todd lundgren, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. the new album is titled "space force." it's out now and absolutely great album. and it is now the fourth hour of "morning joe," 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east. we have a lot to get to this

hour. bob woodward is going to be with us and have now sounds himself, new recordings from his 20 interviews with former president trump. plus, former obama campaign manager jim messina will be here as well as the former president prepares to hit the campaign trail for democrats. less than two weeks to go before the midterms. meanwhile, it was debate night in america last night as candidates from some of the tightest races in the country met on stage, less than two weeks before election day. from pennsylvania to michigan, new york to colorado. each debate saw the candidates clash on the economy, inflation, abortion, and energy. let's start in pennsylvania, where in the one most -- one of the most closely watched debates in the midterm campaign, lieutenant governor john fetterman struggled as he recovers from a stroke he suffered five months ago. for the very latest, let's bring in nbc news correspondent, dasha

burns. she's live in harrisburg, pennsylvania. dasha, quite a debate last night. get us up to date. what are both sides saying today? >> yeah, joe, look, this might have been the most anticipated moment of the midterms. this race is just so close, just a couple of points separating both of these candidates. and a lot of people tuned in to see how fetterman would fare up against one of the most familiar faces on american television. fetterman still recovering from his stroke and this debate could not have been more high-stakes. watch. in a race that could help decide the balance of power in congress, pennsylvania democrat john fetterman and republican mehmet oz neck and neck in the polls, finally face-to-face on the debate stage. >> i'm running to serve pennsylvania. he's running to use pennsylvania. >> john fetterman takes everything to an extreme and those extreme positions hurt us all. >> reporter: fetterman acknowledging what he called the elephant in the room, the stroke

that nearly killed him five months ago. >> i had a stroke. he's never let me forget that. and i might miss some words during this debate, mush two words together, but it knocked me down, but i'm going to keep coming back up. >> fetterman using closed captioning to assist with auditory processing says he's fit to serve, citing a letter from his doctor, but would not commit to releasing his full medical records. >> will you pledge tonight to release those records in the interest of transparency. >> transparency is about showing up. i'm here today to have a debate. i believe if my doctor believes that i'm fit to serve, and that's what i believe is appropriate. >> reporter: the celebrity tv doctor never directly addressing fetterman's health, but saying this during an exchange on educations. >> i've visited vocational schools, but i have an answer -- john, obviously, i wasn't clear enough for you to understand this. >> reporter: one point where oz hasn't been clear, how we would vote on a 15-week abortion ban introduced by lindsey graham.

>> i want women, doctors, local political leaders, leading the democracy that's always allowed our democracy to thrive so states can decide for themselves. >> reporter: a clear difference from his opponent. >> my campaign would fight for roe v. wade, and if given the opportunity to codify it into law. >> reporter: oz also right to court moderate undecided voters. >> we can bring us together in a way that has not been done of late. democrats and republicans talking to each other >> reporter: but it was former president trump's endorsement that helped get him on to the republican ticket here. >> donald trump has supported you, he has endorsed you. why won't you fully commit to supporting him in 2024? >> oh, i do. i will support donald trump if he decided to run for president. >> reporter: while fetterman, challenged by the moderator on his contradictory comments on fracking, a big topic in the state. >> i do support fracking and i don't -- i don't -- i support fracking and i stand -- and i do support fracking.

>> reporter: joe, in the spin room after the debate, neither of the candidates came out to speak to media, but their spokespeople did. fetterman's spokesperson said that the campaign was thrilled with his performance. look, one of the things that fetterman has tried to do when it comes to his stroke is use it to relate to the voters of pennsylvania. he's done it on the campaign trail, asking those who has had a health problem or a family member with a health problem and tried to do that last night as well. and a spokesperson asked the oz campaign what he meant when he said that line about decisions about abortion between a woman, her doctor, and local political leaders. a spokesperson said that oz is, quote, pro-life with exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. a lot to take in from last night, guys. >> a lot to take in. nbc's dasha burns, thank you so much. and willie, like we've said before, it's always hard to figure out how debates are going to play out politically. like i said, in 2016, donald

trump just absolutely stumbled over one issue after another, had trouble completing cogent thoughts, showed his complete ignorance of certain issues. and yet after the debate, you know, the majority of republicans thought he won in those flash polls. so you don't know how this is going to play. i would say, though, that both sides feel like they got something out of last night's debate that they can use in the last two weeks for their closing arguments. >> and the great news is, twitter doesn't get to decide who wins that race. the voters will decide, what they saw out of john fetterman last night changes their minds or affirms their belief that he's the right man. we'll find out in 13 days. joining us now, ceo of the messina group, jim messina. he served as white house deputy chief of staff to president obama and ran his 2012 re-election campaign. also with us, the host of msnbc's "politics nation," president of the national action network, our friend, reverend al sharpton. good to see you both. jim, a critical race, obviously.

goes without saying in pennsylvania. what's your sense of how this might play with voters, particularly john fetterman's performance? >> well, look, i think he might have lost the battle last night, but won the war. i think last night was a difficult night for him. but the quote that everyone is going to remember is this abortion line from dr. oz. if the fetterman campaign doesn't have that on all their ads tomorrow, it's malpractice, saying that local political leaders are going to decide. fetterman needs these swing voters, especially women voters in these suburbs that elise has been tracking. and it's just unbelievable that dr. oz handed fetterman this moment. that said, remember that normal swing voters aren't watching any of this. they get the coverage in the next 24 hours. our data shows they really care about how their media coverage is, and that's brutal this morning for fetterman. >> you've been talking to focus groups, have studied pennsylvania very closely, running president obama's re-election campaign very closely. is it a different year it was ten years ago?

or is it some of the same concerns that you've always seen there, that will decide the race? >> pennsylvania voters are economic voters, first and foremost. and second, they want to know that these candidates are good on some social issues that they care about, like abortion, like crime, like guns. those issues are really, really salient with these voters, but it's the same thing, they want to figure out which of these two candidates is actually going to make their family's lives better. elections are about the future, not the past. >> so, jim, republicans lost a lot of ground in suburbs with donald trump. we talked about it in 2018, we talked about it in 2020. we've seen it in polls in '21 and '22. i'm just wondering, though, when you look at philly suburbs, which really broke hard for democrats. when you look at the atlanta suburbs, when you look at the dallas suburbs, are we seeing the republicans gaining ground back in those areas? >> they're trying. that's why you see these polls like in georgia, the atlanta suburbs are more difficult for warnock than they were two years

ago. but, if you look at like pennsylvania, which i'm obsessed with, because it's the ultimate state and democrats just have to have this race to hold control of the united states senate, and it really is about these swing voters. and they're starting to move back to the democrats on social issues. >> what did you think last night, rev, of the debate, and how it's going to play with voters in pennsylvania? >> i think that when the dr. oz went with his position of, let the state decide on abortion, many of the communities that i work in, it's state's rights. i've been saying since the dobbs designation decision is whether you agree with abortion or not, we don't want to have a state's rights model and don't have the -- the unions versus the confederates is what the civil war was about. once you go to state's rights on

women's rights, you'll go there on civil rights, on immigration rights, on voting rights. and he brought that home last night for those of us that have been saying, this is what this is about. state's rights. let the states decide. then the states will be deciding on your voting. then the states will be deciding on this, that, and the other. i think that that will probably energize a lot of black and brown voters in pennsylvania. i also think that come out of communities that have people that have less than adequate health care and challenges, even if the social landscape, yeah, i'm not at my best, but i'm going to struggle through anyway. and i think they might sure enough, if i was working with jim messina, i probably would have told him not to do it, but i think jim's right. i think he lost the battle, but may win the war. >> jim, why do you think or do

you think that a lot of democrats, maybe too many democrats seemingly forgot the importance of the issue of crime/immigration and have failed, somewhat, to address one of the pure family issues in this country, the education of children who have missed so much in the last two to three years because of the pandemic. >> because we spend too much time worrying about what our base says and not enough time worrying about what we should actually say to these swing voters. we have to have a plan. we have to actually address these issues. crime is a great example. democrats may lose the oregon governor's race, which if they do that will be a wake-up call on these issues. democrats have to lean right into it and say, look, i'm absolutely against defund the police. i understand in these communities of color, in these communities of economic social justice that we need police to be the ultimate arbitrators of protection and lean into it. and have a plan. that's how democrats do well in the suburbs. take it back to the gun issue where republicans are terrible and where democrats can win

suburban votes and go straight at it and actually have a plan and stop worrying so much about what twitter says. >> of course, mike was talking about the crime and immigration issue. that's what republicans are doing. that's what they always do. they try to blend these two issues together, where they just don't belong. if you look at statistics. of course, i know facts don't matter to a lot of people, but the fact is that crime from immigrants is actually below the percentage of crime by native born americans. details people don't want to know. people also don't want to hear in 2016, under president obama, we had a 50-year low for illegal crossings on the southern border. i know, people say, don't bother voters with details. my democrats should. rev, whenever the issue of crime comes up, as jim said, sometimes

democratic candidates worry too much about what their base says, and you will have woke people saying, if you're talking about crime, my gosh, you're racist. or, there's a racial component every time a politician talks about crime. rev, you've been saying all along that that's not the case. you've been saying when you go and talk to people, crime is at the top of their list that things that they're concerned about. and now there's a poll that you and i have been talking about that actually proves that plaque voters are concerned with crime and think they actually need to be -- i know this will shock white woke people who live in park slope, but black voters actually want more police officers. rev, explain. >> i think that what is being misread is that there is a misreading of wanting criminal justice reform and police reform and in wanting proper policing.

and crime speaks in some areas, even more policing. we just elected a black policeman as the mayor of new york and he had overwhelming black support. i think, again, the latte liberals are talking to the guy that gives them the syrup in their latte and not talking to the people that they claim they speak for. you need to speak to them. i can go in any church, and i preach in churches every sunday, and part-time are saying, i'm concerned about crime in the neighborhood. that is not racist. these are blacks talking about blacks. and it amazes me how we allow these people to get on platforms and talk for people that they never talk to. this poll said clearly that they are not for defunding the police, they are for using funds to train police, and i said,

we've got to lead the movement to obama. he's the president. and we have this misappropriation of roles in american politics that we need to be very honest about it. but i won't shut up. >> look no further than the governor's race in the state of new york, which most people a couple of months ago thought would not be close. the issue of crime came up during last night's debate between kathy hochul and lee zeldin. >> if you're tired of soaring crime, we need to make our streets safe again. i'm running to take back our streets and to support unapologetically or men and women in law enforcement. there are criminals who immediate to pay the consequences for their actions. people afraid of being pushed in front of subway cars, being

stabbed. >> you can work on keeping people scared or focus on keeping them safe. i have worked hard to have real policies that are making a difference. there is no crime-fighting plan if it doesn't include guns, illegal guns. and you refuse to talk about how we can do so much more. you didn't even show up for votes in washington when a bipartisan group of enlightened legislatures voted for an assault weapon ban. >> and guns play such a huge role many skyrocketing crime rates. but jim messina, help me out, here. i'm serious. i'm not being glib. help me out. you have san francisco residents that complain about crime. so much so that they recall their d.a. out there. yet if you ever bring that up, they go crazy saying, san francisco is safer than, you know, and fill in the blank. they don't want to hear about

crime. it's more dangerous than trump's red states. okay, maybe it is. the crime rates, eight out of ten, where crime has risen faster. but people in san francisco are scared. there was a story in the atlantic, talking to an immigrant who started a business saying he had to leave san francisco. the ceo said, we had to take our company out, because they don't enforce laws there. he said, i come from a country that didn't enforce laws. i know how this story ends. elise, i'm sorry to go on, but i really do need an explanation. elise had a focus group of black voters talking about how crime was a top issue for them. they were afraid, they said, to go to work. they were afraid, they said, to come home.

and yet, we actually had people, twitter and other activists saying that we were racist for showing a clip of black people saying they were scared of crime. while reverend al sharpton is saying the same things. well, the polls were showing saying the same thing. what is is this denialism? i mean, how do these activists woke activists know more about the features of black voters than plaque voters themselves? >> they don't, and they're a very small piece of our party, but we're lpg to them. it goes back to what al said, which is, you have to go to these communities and have these conversations. and look, i'm going get barbecued on twitter for this and i don't care one bit. the fact is, democrats have got to lean into this issue and

actually have a plan and not deny that there's an issue. yes, details do matter, sometimes. yes, the crime rate in blue states is less than red states and we've got to say that to the world and we don't and it drives me absolutely insane. on the other hand, these voters don't feel safe. and unless we have a plan and go straight at it and stop worrying about 10% of our party that is super great on twitter and sucks at knocking on doors, then we should just absolutely -- >> that was a good dig. >> i'll get killed for that, too, and i don't care. this is what we have to do. we have to stop looking at a very small minority of our party. we had this fight in 2020. joe biden won it. so democrats have to remember that and steer into it and stop worrying about this other bs. >> as you prepare for your day on twitter, let's take a step back here and we were talking before we came on the air, just the big picture. looking at the map the way you do so well, let's talk about the senate. where are the places that democrats absolutely have to win

to hold on to the senate? and where are some places that there are people behind closed doors, maybe, worried that they're going to lose? >> if you look at the map, and show me what happens on election night in nevada and pennsylvania, i will tell you who controls the united states senate. we won't know in georgia. you all get to go to georgia in december and get some better weather and report ad nauseam about that on the runoff again. but those are the two races i'm really looking at. democrats are hoping for an upset in wisconsin. any of those pickups would be a big moment. but you have to assume that you're going to lose a seat. so you've got to pick up a seat. and that just has to be pennsylvania. so i'm going to look very closely at that. and i'm going to look at nevada. nevada has saved the democrats repeatedly. the west has saved the democrats and the question is, can she hold nevada. >> the wiseman, jim messina, ignore twitter. always good advice. we've been preaching it for a long time around here.

we'll be back in a moment with bob woodward, who is releasing new audio from his 20 interviews with former president trump. you won't want to miss that when we come right back. p. you won't want to miss that when we ce omright back ♪ ♪ have diabetes? know where your glucose is? with the freestyle libre 3 system, know your glucose and where it's heading. no fingersticks needed. now the world's smallest, thinnest sensor sends your glucose levels directly to your smartphone. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c now you know freestyle libre 3. try it for free at freestylelibre.us.

i love san francisco, but i'm working overtime to stay here. now is not the time to raise taxes. i'm voting no on propositions m and o, because the cost of everything is going up. san francisco collects more tax revenue than nearly any city in america. but our streets are dirty and public safety is not getting better. i'm working hard to live within my budget. the city should too.

join me in voting no on m and o. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o.

9:26 in the morning at the white house. 6:26 as you wake up out west. let's bring in associate editor of "the washington post," bob woodward. he's out with a new audio book titled "the trump tapes: bob woodward's 20 interviews with president donald trump." bob, great to have you back with us this morning. eight hours, 20 interviews. you say you've never done this before in all of your ears in talking to presidents and other high-ranking people, you've never put out publicly the tapes of your interviews. i'm sure you saw donald trump this week saying that he never gave you permission to do that and you're trying to make him look bad. but what was your motive for publishing these tapes? >> well, when i went back and listened to them, i was, one of

the facts is, in eight hours, you can persistently question trump -- now, this is when he is the sitting president, and i raise all kinds of issues like racial justice, he dismisses it, oh, no, you're drinking the kool-aid. and when you hear it, you realize that he's locked in his own point of view. he's locked in his world, as we know, but you hear it. on the virus, i go through the 15 things that need to be done to mobilize the country, to deal with it, and again, he's dismissive and won't listen. and it's not, to me, i talked to the expert who said, we need to mobilize the country. >> so let's listen to some of these tapes. this one is from december 30th, 2019. bob asks donald trump about some of trump's conversations with world leaders, discussions trump apparently did not tell any

intelligence officials about. >> i found and my assistant, that you have what they call kind of a shadow system on the phone of calling people where the intel people don't know and it pisses them off. is that correct? >> i don't know if it pisses me off. >> okay, but you do -- >> but i get better intel the way i do it than i can ever get it from other people. >> okay, but you do have a shadow communication system? >> i talk to people, i do. >> okay. the intel people and a lot of people in the government don't like it. >> i don't know if they like -- >> i know they don't like it, because they -- >> okay, i want them to do their jobs. if you think i'm happy with intel after what i went through with comey, who's a stupid guy, a very stupid guy. but when i brennan, i have clapper, i have comey, i have this scum that i have to deal with, that the remnants of it,

and there are many other people i could name, but i won't bother naming them right now, and then i'm supposed to say how wonderful our intelligence is? i don't think so. that's not going to happen. >> give me one second. >> what is the shadow communications -- he's the president of the united states. he makes the call, that's the call. >> i understand, but it's on a system that doesn't necessarily involve the nsc or -- >> no, i have no secrets. i have no secrets from anybody in our government. >> so, bob, first of all, let's just take note, the president of the united states is calling fbi directors and other national security leaders scum. fascinating. actually, deplorable, i'll use the word, because it fits here. but also, "i do better intel." he thinks he's doing better doing intel than his own intel community, let by intelligence

professionals. it reminds us of what he said in helsinki when he said that he trusted vladimir putin more than he trusted the men and women of the united states intelligence community. >> he's his own intelligence officer. and when i asked him about the cia's assessment of the thuggish leader of north korea, kim jong-un, trump says, well, i know -- i mean, again, in the tone, i'm the only one that knows. he is locked into this world of untruth that he is he's leading. and the summary for me is, when you listen to all of this and lay it out, he does not understand the responsibilities of the president.

you can reject what the intelligence community tells you, but you want to listen to it. and he's off, you know, running an off-the-books operation to deal and try to understand the world. >> right. >> bobby, listen to him talking the way actually he talked through his entire presidency. and you get that combination of the arrogance and the ignorance, where he says, well, i can do it better than anybody else, and he has people sucking up to him saying, he's the president, he can say whatever he wants to say, when presidents always have the nsc, i have other people listening so they can help him out. it's very easy to see how somebody that arrogant and that ignorant could make the jump from where he is there to thinking that he can just still top-secret documents and they're somehow not the property of the united states of america and they're his own and he can unilaterally make those

decisions. but it looks like that arrogance and that ignorance may get him in big trouble. >> well, look, we're in big trouble. we were in big trouble. if you look at this period, i was talking to him for nine months while he was the sitting president in office, you see that he isolated himself from reality. the problem is, for me, i had to go through and i could ask him questions, follow-ups, follow-ups, follow-ups, as we all know, in the normal interchange he had with reporters, he would walk away and in one of these calls, i'm getting into sensitive areas, pushing him on things, i've got to go, and he hangs up. he does not like to be interrogated, but in this case, the arrangement was i could ask

anything, it was all on the record, and now people can hear it. i, myself, put all of this out in the book "rage." there are 90 pages in rage recounting these conversations. but, and it's all there, but when you listen and you see the closed mind, the insistence, at one point he even says, everything is mine, everything is mine. but of course, that's the way he looks at this, and now i think he thinks the presidency is his. >> it's crazy. and this recording from december 13th, toid, you ask donald trump how he feels about the fact that so many people dislike him. >> why do so many people hate you? why are they so angry? >> well, the love is equal to the hate. >> okay, fair point.

the famous fifth avenue statement, boom. >> where'd that come from? was that instinct? >> that was pure instinct. and it was well received, but not so well, but now they write, it's true. >> at a 2016 campaign rally in iowa, trump said -- >> i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters, okay? it's like, incredible. [ laughter ] >> you know, we have two americas out there, you realize that? you are president of two americas. >> yeah, that's true. >> they are divided. >> that's true. >> is it, in the end, not your job to be able to bring them together. >> i would like to be able to. >> isn't your job? job one, bring them back together. >> i think the biggest problem i have for doing that -- i would love to do that. because i've oftentimes said that -- you remember when i put out the christmas agreeing where i said, merry christmas to all, even the haters? you know, but i would love to be able to do it. but the biggest problem is the

media. >> bob, you know. i've known donald trump for 40 years, mostly adversarial, but in listening to this last part of the tape you play, i always sensed even though those of us that opposed him, marched on him and all, he really wanted everybody to like him. did you get the sense that part of his weakness was that he really even engaging you wanted people to like him despite the fact he was doing the most adversarial and sometimes most outrageous things. and that he lived in his own world. i think he had his own reality that did not in any way, in my opinion blend in with the reality of whatever the given social or political landscape was at the time. >> you're absolutely right. he wanted to be liked.

people like to be appreciated and so forth. at the same time, the tragedy in all of this is the disconnect -- i mean, he's not out there -- he's out there to do a job, i asked him once, what's the job of the president? he said, to protect the people. national security, he took risks. i had this idea that he could form relations based on instinct, well, we all have instincts, but we need to -- particularly with a president with all of that power needs to filter it and listen to others, but as he said once, he was the lone ranger. and if he gets in there again, he's now learned where the levers of power are, a point complete loyalists in the white house and the cabinet, don't have people who are their own

experts, what would a second trump presidency be like? the problem here, overall problem, he didn't learn anything. he didn't learn -- he did not grow. and as we know, we all have to try to grow and learn. not donald trump. >> bob, one of the clips that you've gathered and put out here, it's a brief clip and you're questioning him about a speech he gave and you ask him, did he have help writing the speech. please explain that brief clip that we don't have and its impact on you and on us, on the country. well, this is when the famous walk from the white house over to the church and holding up the

bible. and he had given the law and order speech. and i asked, where does that come from? do people help you? and he said, yes, a little bit. and what he says in the clip, i'm sorry, it's out there, he says, they are my ideas, they are mine. and then there's this whisper of confidentiality and intimacy, where he says, bob, everything is mine. and that summarizes it. everything is not mine, not his. and he disconnected himself from the other, as we know, there's a lot of self in the presidency, but you've got to have advisers. on your show, joe and mika, you have producers, you have people who get information.

you say you're going to do something, i hope you have people say, no, that's stupid, or that's not supported. no one can go alone in life, let alone -- and for a president to do this is nothing could be more risky for the country. >> it's so dangerous. and i have someone who regularly tells me when i do stupid things. mika, it's a full-time job for her. that's why she's off resting today, getting ready to tell me for the next month or two. bob, it's interesting. what you just said lines up with what he said about the intel community. he's best at doing that. what he would always say about getting advice from generals. i remember when they tried to give him a history lesson at the beginning of the administration and he was angry, not because they were giving their opinions, but because they were giving him facts. and that's when rex tillerson called him a name that we won't

repeat this morning. but i remember, we asked him, when you are in the white house, who is your adviser going to be? who is the one person you'll go to when there's a really vexing issue, somebody that you can trust to tell it to you straight. and his answer was, his answer was, well, that's me. that's me. he basically said that he was smarter than everybody else. and we said on the air at the time, well, that's really disturbing. but it's remarkable, bob. , you were talking to him during the transition. you were talking to him still through these tapes and you saw no growth whatsoever how about perhaps a devolution. where have you seen him actually get worse? >> you know, i don't know. all you can do is report this.

this man was isolated in the presidency. and as we know, and as a reporter, i'm trying to expand my universe, not narrow it. and he never michael jackson that move, on the racial justice issue. i say, come on, you're white privilege, i'm white privilege, don't we have to understand the anger and pain of black people? and he just snaps it off. oh, you're drinking the kool-aid, the kool-aid. and we go back to it, and he's so confused about his responsibility, first, as a human being, but as president to understand other people. i mean, you know, the pain and anger of plaque people is so real, and he's just, you know, oh, to raise that, you're

drinking the kool-aid in this dismissive way, and this is a man. this is nine months, he's the sitting president he's there as ago there in 200 commentaries in this audio book saying that i got entangled in the chaos of his life. the phone would ring, and my wife, elsa and i, is it our daughters? is it a friend? is it a robo call? or is it donald trump? and donald trump would just pick up the phone and call and then say, oh, i'm so busy, so busy, i can't talk to fauci, i can't explore anything, and then he would talk for 25 minutes, repeating -- and, you know, sometimes he would ask questions and said, oh, you ask good

questions. and then in the end, he said, you don't understand me. you don't understand me. here's the theme. we do understand him. that's the problem. >> it's just not that complicated, at the end of the day. the new audio book, "the trump tapes," available now. bob woodward, love to have you back and talk much more about this. thanks. still ahead here, the fed's actions to bring down inflation are having a major impact on the once red hot housing market. we'll look at how prospective buyers are handling that new climate when "morning joe" comes right back. new climate when "morning joe" comes right back ♪hit it!♪ ♪it takes two to make a thing go right♪ ♪it takes two to make it outta sight♪ ♪it takes two to make a thing go right♪ ♪it takes two to make it outta sight♪ ♪one, two, get loose now!♪ ♪it takes two to make a- it takes two to make a-♪ ♪it takes two to make a- it takes two to make a-♪

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6:47 in the morning. beautiful shot of the sun coming up over los angeles. as americans across the country continue to struggle with soaring inflation and higher interest rates, home prices are now declining at a record rate. nbc's tom costello has details. >> reporter: even with inflation burning red hot, keeping prices up on just about everything we buy, there's one sector, housing, where costs are actually cooling down. while nationally, home prices in

august were 13% higher than last year, that's actually down more than 2% from the month before. the largest month-over-month decline since the index started 35 years ago. >> a pause and a breath is really what the housing market is experiencing. >> reporter: the biggest price drops are in the west. san francisco down 4.3%. seattle, down 3.9%. san diego, down 2.8. the driving factor, of course, rising mortgage rates, now nearly 7%, pushing many prospective buyers out of the market. >> mortgage payments are now 75% higher than they were last year. >> reporter: rob mebok is a california in california's barrier. he says this climate is allowing buyers to be a bit more selective. >> before, they would want to rye to get into a house, no matter what. but now, their motivation to jump into a house that isn't perfect is gone. >> reporter: but some buyers say they simply feel locked out

right now, like eric and ana in arlington, massachusetts. they have been looking to upgrade from their two-bedroom apartment. >> we're just finding less on the market and prices are still incredibly sticky. >> after being in this for a year, i feel like we are even more motivated to just find what we're looking for. >> and many current homeowners are deciding to just stay put for now. >> i don't know that we could afford the house we're living in today if we had to go buy it today. >> still, if you're looking to buy, it could be the right time. >> you do a short-term sacrifice of paying a higher rate now for maybe the next 12 to 18 months. once the rates go down and you can refinance, your payment is instantaneously, your equity is going to go up. >> coming up next, the last folk hero. that is the title of a new book about the legendary bo jackson. we're taking a look at his

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only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ make sure they have firm footing underneath. >> mentioned earlier, reynolds has been caught far too often in his career. line drive. left field. it's going to be up to bo jackson to try to stop reynolds from scoring. he can't do it. yes, he can! i don't believe! he made an absolutely perfect throw! it looked like there was no way he was going to get him. >> if you're in seattle, you can't wait until he leaves. third and one from the two. here's bo. and bo for the touchdown. one-on-one and jackson just jumps him into the end zone. >> bo jackson is there.

here's the throw. and bo gets it! what a throw by bo jackson. >> and bo jackson to the 20 and out in front and only one man between him. easily -- can't run him down. he had the angle but there goes bo. and nobody catches bo, touchdown. >> he's still running through that tunnel. some of the incredible plays from the legendary bo jackson during his time playing both professional football and baseball. jackson's life is the subject of a new book titled "the last folk hero: the life and myth of bo jackson." the book's author jeff pearlman joins us now. it's great to see you. you've written so many great books about so many of the characters of the last 30 or 40 years that we've all grown up with. bo jackson might be my favorite, maybe the greatest athlete we've ever seen in america just on raw athleticism and the things he went and achieved. but you're also writing here about the myth of bo jackson. why do you call it that?

>> because he did so many things we never saw. this is an era before social media. there's a story in the book supposedly in high school in birmingham, alabama, he hit a baseball so high that by the time it landed in left field, he was rounding third base. his first game -- the first night game in the history of university of georgia baseball team, he hit a baseball and it hit the lights. and this is 39 days before the -- there was story after story of things that were so hard to believe and all the witnesses say they happened. he's a folk hero by nature. >> and even the stuff he did that was on tv and the day before youtube and tiktok and social media, it took awhile to sort of get down and filter out to the people like when he made that catch and ran up the outfield wall like spider-man. i remember hearing about that but you had to wait until the next morning to see it.

how great a raw athlete was bo jackson? he ran a 4.1 for the combine which i think is impossible for a human being to do. he was just different, right? just special. >> i have to correct you. he ran a 4.13. and he was 220 pounds when he did it. and he later -- when he signed with the raiders during one of his first practices with the raiders, they had him do a 40 on grass in pads and he ran a 4.19 and the coach didn't believe it. so he had him do it again on grass, in pads. and he ran a 4.17. it's ridiculous. >> it is ridiculous. it's also -- i've got to say also not great for me as an alabama fan. i remember, you know, alabama always beat auburn. bear bryant always had his way. it was always child's play. and suddenly this guy named bo

jackson comes in and he just made the crimson tide look foolish. that's where the legend began, isn't it? >> yeah, you're going to hate this. but he wanted to go to alabama. his plan was to go to alabama and he met with one of their coaches and said to him, we think in two or three years, you'll really be able to help us possibly on the defensive side of the ball -- >> come on! >> they said you don't want to go to auburn because you'll never beat us if you go to auburn. of course, he won the first two iron bowls he played in against alabama. sorry, man. >> it was really, really amazing mike -- willie. he was such a big guy, he started to go around the corner. alabama is going to catch him.

they got the lateral speed. when we saw it in the seattle clip, the guy just flew, like you said, nobody like him. i've been watch football since i was 5 years old. i've never seen anybody that big turn the corner and take off the way bo jackson did. >> yeah, and, jeff, an all star in football but in baseball too. he's that good that he can be an all star in baseball. as you write, there's some tragedy to his story, that he hurt his hip and his career and all the things he could have done and been were cut short. but in some way, he was sort of frozen in that moment in our culture where he was the greatest athlete arguably of all time. >> yeah, well, i think it's funny. like joe is saying, he's one of the -- there's never a football player like him. it's like, oh, yeah, by the way, he also played baseball at an all-star level and if he devoted himself could have been mike trout. also could have been an olympic sprinter. he's the greatest athlete who's

ever lived. there's no maybe about it. >> jeff, you've written about so many storied athletic figures. what's amazing about bo jackson is how his legacy has been maintained. you don't have these horrible stories about him in the years after he leaves sports that just tar your memory of him. and so i remember having that poster that we just flashed of the baseball bat, that's the hero, the legend. how -- why is he different? >> you know, my daughter is a college sophomore and has that poster hanging on her wall in her dorm. and i love that because people remember him. he -- first of all, he didn't feel like he needed to stick around. you'll never see him on tv ripping another player. i'm better than that guy. that guy should do it more like me. he's a grandpa. he lives in suburban chicago, he shovels his own driveway. he's content with his legacy.

he's very content with his place in history which is really beautiful, i think. >> it is. what a great place to be. the new book is titled "the last folk hero: the life and myth of bo jackson." author jeff pearlman has done it again. this is such a great book. we appreciate your time this morning. joe, again, the scouts in tuscaloosa just didn't like what they saw in this kid -- >> come on! >> -- bo jackson. >> and they told him, you can't play for a couple years. i tell you what, maybe we can slot you in on defense. >> that stings. >> i put this right up with the record executive who told brian epstein of the beatles, hey, bands with guitars are on the way out. >> yeah, they didn't like the 4.1 on pads and grass. just didn't. well, that does it for us this morning. while joe mourns the loss of bo jackson, we'll see you back