the most successful businesses ever built. donald trump had zero government experience. and when the tweeting stops, you need people who know what they're doing, and are on it, rather than just the tweets that are out there. tweeting is fast, change takes time. >> and we should note that musk has said that he wouldn't make a decision on donald trump's possible return to twitter for a few weeks. that would be after the midterms. also his plan to have verified users $8 a month. karine jean-pierre was asked about that yesterday, it hadn't reached the president's desk yet if the white house wanted to keep its blue check mark. thank you for getting up "way too early." joe and mika are thanking me, and i'm going to send it your way right now. let's go. folks can win if we done do our part, and if you've got election deniers serving as your

governor, as your senator, as your secretary of state, as your attorney general, then democracy as we know it may not survive in arizona. that's not an exaggeration, that is a fact. >> that was former president obama hitting the campaign trail hard for democrats talking on election deniers in battleground states. >> that guy is pretty good. >> he's good at what he does. >> he's got a future in politics if he decides to go that way. >> president biden makes the fate of our democracy a key issue just days before voters decide who will control congress and the future path of our country. also ahead, new polling in several crucial races, including pennsylvania where voters are weighing in on the only debate between senate candidate john fetterman and dr. oz. plus, there are new details in the plot by trump's attorneys to

overturn the 2020 election. his lawyers had a specific justice in mind, and we'll tell you who that is. and one of former president donald trump's top advisers has been granted immunity to testify before a federal grand jury about trump's handling of highly sensitive government documents that were seized by the fbi from his mar-a-lago home and club in august. we'll have new reporting on that. if he gets immunity, that's a sign of something. >> go out and buy him some orange juice. give it to him for some reason. >> oh, boy. >> we'll see what happens. we don't want to get ahead of the story. let's see, in sports, nothing, really, willie to report on sports. >> i didn't see anything. did you see anything? >> looking through the papers. >> you complete me. >> bills, yeah. >> this kyrie thing is like,

come on. >> we're going to talk about that in depth later. i'm being told the houston astros pitched a four man's no hitter. they needed four pitchers to do it. >> he pitched a perfect game, and all you can do is throw a no hitter. four pitchers. my god. seriously. >> they did pitch a team no hitter with four different pitchers. the series is tied 2-2, and it pains us to say the astros are in the driver's seat. justin verlander, the greatest oaf all time, the series goes back to houston. there is something about these phillies. >> not last night. >> but there's something about them. >> how many pitchers. >> i lost count. >> it's like having your smart cousin finish your rubik's cube for you. you can't run around issue look

what i did. >> sounds like you have experience with that. >> you got too much sleep. >> i did. >> jonathan had something to say. >> yes, jonathan, what. >> does it even count, really? no, it doesn't, but i will say this, it's the beauty of baseball, game three, the phillies hit five home runs, 7-0 win. they have all the momentum, the crowd at that park couldn't have been louder. last night, i pin could be heard, even if it took four pitchers, a no hitter, the second one in world series history. >> but not comparable. also with us professor eddie glaude jr. and former chaff to the dccc adrienne elrod, senior aid to hillary clinton, and president biden presidential campaigns. i've got one more for you. >> i'm so tired of being cut off. >> i got one more for you. >> hold on, willie. >> i'm tired. >> it pains me to say this. but you have to give it to the

houston astros. backs against the wall, like the phillies looked unbeatable. crushing. this is what i love about baseball, and let me just say too, this is what i love about having seven-game series, unlike when you start putting it in 47 wild card teams, and people are going, joe, what are you talking about, the playoffs have been on since 1928. that's everybody on twitter, maybe we shouldn't have 47 wild card players so great teams can play in best of seven series. you have a team like the phillies who are streaking do great, and then you have great teams like the astros that get a chance to answer back, and now we have an incredible world series to watch. >> it's a better measure of two teams, and for all of our jokes and we'll continue them, the astros remain a great team. they've got a great lineup, justin verlander, one of the greatest to ever do it going tonight. they're the favorite. it's 2-2. they get two of the three back

in houston with verlander in philly. you're right, the seven-game series lets us really see who the better team is. >> as mika was saying last night, we have to admit it, the astros are the best baseball team of the past decade, like jesse james was the best person for withdrawing money from banks. >> very prolific. nobody did it better. >> and we have a great lineup too. columnist and associate editor of the "washington post" david ignatius joins us. >> would you like to join us? >> we do not have to give it to the astros. >> david ignatius, thank you so much. a great columnist as well. >> new polling of pennsylvania's senate race shows last week's debate between democrat john fetterman and republican mehmet oz appears to have had little impact on the minds of voters. 48% of registered voters tell monmouth university they will definitely or probably vote for

fetterman, while 44% say they will back oz. these numbers fall in the poll's margin of error and are virtually unchanged from the poll taken before last week's debate where fetterman struggled to speak at times following a stroke that he suffered earlier in the year. a new survey from fox news shows fetterman leading 45-42%. the slim margin falls within the poll's margin of error. in the race for pennsylvania governor, fox news polling has josh shapiro leading by 16 points over republican doug mastriano. want to stop there? >> who could have seen this coming, mastriano, well, i guess everybody could. everybody knew he was going to lose. >> i think the fetterman polling shows a little bit -- there was one debate, and while we might pick it apart and look at every detail, the voters are feeling the way they're feeling. >> that's the thing, polling at

this point, it is so important for people to get out and vote. if anybody is saying i'm not going to vote because my side is doing poorly. it's idiocy. 50 percent of the people who saw the debate said it's changed their vote, and 20% more of those broke for fetterman. you really don't know. all of these races are so close. the races that were supposed to be, you know, whitmer was supposed to win big in michigan. that race is close. hochul is supposed to win in new york. some say that race is close. we'll see. oklahoma and other states are more competitive than people expected. do you see any trends? all i see is everything tightening up out there? >> everything is super tight, and what we are seeing, the trends that we are seeing, which

i think looks very good for democrats is that across the board, democrats are out performing their early vote numbers compared to 2018 and 2020. when you say the polls are close, what matters is who actually turns out at this point, and when early vote has gone well for democrats, that's a very strong sign. we know that democrats tend to be a little bit more organized. we are very focused on getting people out to vote early and to vote via absentee. republicans tend to turn out more on election day itself. the fact that we are outperforming 2018 numbers, 2018 was a good year for democrats. i think the story that is not getting told enough is that democrats are having a very strong showing in early vote numbers. when you combine with the polls being very tight, i think it's going to look a lot better for democrats on election day than what some other people are saying. >> we just don't know. you go back to 2016, nobody thought donald trump was going to win going into the last.

everybody now says they did. we said it was possible, and people said we were crazy for it. you look at went, it was the same thing, the polls skewed heavily in the democrats' favor and even kevin mccarthy's team, republican leadership said they were going to get slaughtered in the house. more off elections or not. i remember '98. republicans were supposed to have a massive landslide. people are like what democrats defied history, and the guy who was supposed to be the biggest benefactor of the huge republican landslide, newt gingrich was chased out of town four days later. you never know. as tom brokaw says, it's probably best to let the voters have their say. >> and you combine all of that with the fact that the country is in crisis. we have this feeling that, you know, our democracy is at stake,

so there's the traditional insight about what happens on election day, and there's this moment where it seems like so much is at stake. you just don't know. all depends on what americans will do. >> and david ignatius, it all depends on last night, joe biden talked about saving democracy. i was extraordinarily moved by that. i'm sure a lot of us on the show were moved by that. the question is, and i'm not being flip here at all, the question is are most of the people going out to vote, are they going to pay more attention to that or more attention to how much milk has gone up, and bread has gone up, and gas prices have gone up over the past couple of years. >> i thought it was a beautiful speech. it was superbly written. i heard echoes of our friend jon meacham in that speech. i thought it was pretty well delivered. i would be surprised if it changed any significant percentage of votes.

i think people are dug in. must be so frustrating for joe biden. this is his issue. he thinks, you know, it's his job to save america from this brick of perhaps mortal danger to our democracy, defeated trump at the polls in 2020. here he is at this midterm election looking over the brick again. it's obviously frustrating. i have to say, one of the painful things for me watching this speech was to think back to trump, to biden's inauguration, and to think fixing this problem, this division in the country, that was what joe biden was elected for, and two years later, it's hard to say that we're in a better place than we were. >> david, let me ask you this question, though, and i think maybe it's social media. maybe it's just the nature of politics that people go around trying to own, you know, the libs or do anything that will grab a headline.

i mean, elon musk is a perfect example of that. i think if i were worth hundreds of billions of dollars and made spaceships i probably wouldn't be hanging around in the gutters of twitter but it seems everybody is addicted to that, but when you look at legislation, and that's how we used to judge presidents, that's how we used to judge politicians do they get things done? joe biden did exactly what he said he was going to do, and this is not a campaign speech for joe biden. i mean, you're talking about a guy that believes, and we're going to go to sleep now, in regular order believes that madisonian democracy is beautiful, the house takes up something, they debate it. the senate takes up something, they debate it. they negotiate, they go to the president. he or she signs it. it becomes law, right? washington used to be about that instead of outrageous press

conference where is you own the libs. well. >> or memes. >> or memes. you look at bipartisan legislation that's passed over the past two years, you know, i don't think many people are going to care about that as they go to vote. i don't know why but that's just the case. but historians are going to look back, and if you compare the legislation over the past two years, compared to what's happened over the past quarter century, maybe you have to go back to bill clinton to find a president that signed as many bipartisan pieces of legislation into law. >> it's a solid legislative performance. i think it took longer than it needed to. i think biden didn't get the momentum that might have been possible if he moved more quickly with bipartisan legislation. the chips act is a good example. it sat there for a year. he didn't stress that. he spoke about the fundamental

issue of democracy. i was struck by what a heavy load joe biden is carrying for our country. i thought there were some super powerful lines in the speech about the lies that are bringing our politics down, but the sense of frustration of a decent man, decent person in the white house trying to solve these problems and so far not having much success. >> we're going to play a whole bunch of that speech coming up in just a few minutes where he said democracy is on the ballot. we'll show you that in just a few minutes. arizona's top race is tightening ahead of election day and the race for the senate, new numbers from the online polling company civic show democratic incumbent mark kelly, and blake masters tied at 49%. in the race for governor, republican kari lake leads democrat katie hobbs by two points, that is within the margin of error. >> that one's tighter. the kari lake thing, we heard that thing was over. i saw polls, five, six, seven

points. like the wisconsin senate race, you never know what's going to happen. but marquette poll shows that race tightening up. again, i think it's a lot like 2014, but i have never seen a year where everything seems to be tightening up. mark kelly, we thought that was going to tighten up because mark kelly has to make every race tight, but the kari lake race, most in the margin of error, a week ago, it was plus five, plus six. >> the arizona race shows no one party has a monopoly on momentum. where hobbs has tightened in on lake, certainly there has been a discussion in the last week or so, lake was measuring the stacks in the drake house. >> is hobbs campaigning. >> she appeared with president obama at a rally. we'll be playing that later. she was there, she spoke briefly, he of course was the headliner. >> mark kelly, that's a race in arizona where democrats have started to get nervous in the last week or so. they feel like he's still a

strong candidate. blake masters is deeply flawed. he had a significant lead that has withered away. he is out there campaigning. no one is pointing fingers at him. it's a moment where there's a tightening across the board, and we have seen democrats pick up points in the gubernatorial race, republicans in the senate race, and that will be one of the tighter states and most important states going into tuesday. >> you know, willie, it's one of the mysteries to me of this campaign that you have, a couple of things, democrats were a great risk to democracy, and they poured millions of dollars cynically into their primary campaigns. americans, thank you for that. way to go. way to make a dangerous situation even worse, democrats. but then katie hobbs, many people believe she may be running against the most dangerous demagogue in america. and if you believe she's the

most dangerous demagogue in america, i don't know, i don't want to debate her. you don't want to debate her. but katie hobbs has been hiding. voters don't vote for governors that hide, that are afraid to even go to bat. it's maddening. >> you have to confront the lie, and the argument from the hobbs campaign was i'm not going to elevate her. i'm not going to give her the platform. she has the platform, and if you're not there, she has it to herself, and the lies go unchecked. what are you seeing out in arizona that might tell us more about how some of these candidates, verify extreme in the case of kari lake and blake masters, hanging in there, to say the least. in kari lake's case, she has been leading most of the race. >> i think we are seeing the fact that a lot of these races are tied across the board. it shows you how divided our country is, and how divided the electorate is.

when it comes to arizona, i'm intrigued by the mark kelly numbers. he has been consistently ahead for pretty much the entire race. it is tightening up but i'm also heartened to see that kari lake, that race is becoming tighter too. in some of the states, you can understand a lake kelly voter because of the reasons we talked about with hobbs, but in pennsylvania, i can't imagine, i'm sure they exist, but who is a fetterman shapiro voter. you know, there are going to be split ticket voters out there, but it's hard to imagine that you would see that in pennsylvania, but you would also maybe would see it in arizona. but look, arizona is a close state. joe biden narrowly won it in 2020. we didn't know until a couple of days after, and one of the smart things that joe biden said in his speech last night is he used his bully pulpit to remind the american people, we may not know on election night the results. some of these states, they don't count absentee ballots and early

votes until the next day. he urged americans to take a step back and let the results come out. that's very important. some of these races are going to be extremely tight. >> you know, in arizona, they count one vote a day, go home, have lunch, and then come back. sleep for a couple of hours, and come back the next day, and this isn't anything new. i had a friend that ran for governor back in 2002, okay, when are they going to figure out who the winner is. i don't know. they counted 14 votes. awesome, so how many, i mean, seriously, arizona and nevada, i have no idea what they do after elections. it's been a problem for 20 or 30 years. you have with mark kelly a guy who was supposed to beat martha mcsally by 14 points, it ended up being one or two. he does not close strong. he does not win going away. >> that's right. and again, i think the appeal,

mark kelly as he runs with washington when he needs to, and runs against washington when he needs to. he understands his electorate well, and knows he's in a closely divided state, so you know, again i'm not surprised this race has tightened. it has tightened a little bit more than i thought it would on mark kelly. that was one poll. everything comes down to voting and who shows up on election day. >> we'll stay in arizona and show you former president barack obama in phoenix campaigning with senator kelly, and gubernatorial candidate katie hobbs. his 55 minute speech was filled with jabs at republicans like kari lake. >> you know his 55 minutes, somebody in the campaign has to speak. katie hobbs isn't. >> he spoke about republicans like kari lake, and others who pushed donald trump's election lies. take a look. >> here in arizona, there's no question that katie hobbs' opponent, she's good in front of the camera because she's been

doing it for a long time. some people don't know this, but apparently kari lake actually interviewed me back in 2016 when i was president. she was a local news anchor. she was doing her job. at the time i don't remember thinking that she was the kind of person who would push debunked covid remedies or promise to issue a declaration of invasion at our border or claim without any evidence that the 2020 election was stolen. i guess that stuff came later because she found it convenient, because she thought, well, here's an opportunity to get attention. listen, if we hadn't just elected somebody who's main qualification was being on tv, you could see maybe giving it a shot. what's the worst that could happen? well now we know. it doesn't just work out just because somebody's been on tv.

the other day, your own current attorney general who's a republican called the election fraud claims made by katie hobbs' opponent horse crap. i'm paraphrasing. he didn't say it exactly that way. he said her whole act about how the election was stolen is a giant grift. why would you vote for somebody who you know is not telling the truth about something? i mean, on something that important. i don't care how nicely they say it. i don't care how poised they are or how well lived they are. i mean, you have people from her own party saying that's just not true, and yet it seems as if it doesn't matter anymore. what happens when truth doesn't

matter anymore. >> i think we need that lighting on us, willie. it's very gauzy. it's like streisand in "the way we are," put vaseline on the lens. >> cheese cloth. it would help us all out a lot. >> it gives you a glow that you and i need, frankly. >> i'm jealous. >> so badly. >> eddie, first of all, that's a man enjoying himself on the campaign trail. it's extraordinary that he has to say the things he's saying, that president biden has to says things he was saying last night is that there are people out there lying to you and this really is about democracy, and you got to put people in office who are not going to disrespect the results of an election, work to stage a coup against the united states government. that will fall on deaf ears to a lot of people in arizona, but the hope is president obama can speak to enough people sitting on the offense saying this is too important to stay home. >> absolutely. clear, passionate and coherent.

it's a coherent argument in so many ways. what i was thinking, a lot of folk who are supporting blake masters, a lot of folk who are supporting kari lake, the motivation is barack obama. you know, you see the deployment of barack obama, and even donald trump, you know, to try to bring the case home in these last days, but these two people are actually at the heart in interesting sorts of ways of the polarization of the country. so that was really great to see. but we know that his election in 2008, his reelection in some ways was one of the motivating factors for some of the chaos we're seeing. >> here's what i think when i see him up, i'm thinking, there are a lot of people that voted for this guy. >> including kari lake. >> including kari lake. >> he could have thanked her. >> then they voted for donald trump. you know, so i know race explains a lot of stuff on the

right. doesn't explain a lot of stuff in the middle. barack obama was the first president to get elected with a majority vote two times since, gosh, eisenhower. >> right. >> so that's what i'm trying to grapple with. that guy, you see him up there, he's fantastic. and i was thinking of the obama/trump voters looking at him. i was wondering, do they see past all the craziness and lies that were told about them, and look at that guy and go, yeah, that's the guy i voted for in 2008 in clinton county, iowa. >> right. you know, i think that's a really important point, but for some reason, even as passionate and convincing as president obama was last night, it felt as if that was ages ago. >> oh, it was ages ago. a lifetime ago. >> past the kind of reasoned discussion, the kind of appeal that he represents, and still represents for a lot of folk. it seems like the moment is such

that i don't know how it works. but i understand that middle that you're talking about. >> this is what i think some of us don't understand enough, that i forget all the time, despite having evidence of it my entire adult life. the same people that voted for ronald reagan twice voted bill clinton twice. the same people that voted for bill clinton twice, voted for george w. bush twice. the same independents that voted for george w. bush ties, voted for barack obama twice, voted for donald trump once. this is your life. your life is to understand these voters. i'm not being facetious here because there are people out there and there are people that don't watch shows every day about politics and policy. what is it about those voters that will vote for barack obama twice and then go things are going in a bad direction, i'm

going with the trump guy. >> and don't forget the bernie sanders voters who then voted for donald trump. i think a lot has to do with voters voting for the outsider, somebody they consider to be running against washington, going to washington to fix things, and i'm not going to give donald trump a lot of compliments for anything, but one thing that he has done somewhat well is he has still positioned himself as an outsider to washington even though he is not. so that's kind of where some of those decisions come from. we look at somebody like barack obama, i mean, he's going out there to make the closing argument and to also motivate democrats. i don't think he's necessarily thinking he's going to change any minds at this point, but he wants to make sure every single democrat and every single independent who intends to vote for a democrat understands what's at stake. >> david ignatius, you remember

1968, right? >> sure do. >> when it came to congress, bobby kennedy, very conservative, i worked with joe kennedy and the family to help rename the justice department after robert kennedy. and i remember there were times where different members of the family, one time joe, one time ethel took me to the side, you're from the south, could you explain something to us, and you could tell it actually has haunted the family, certainly haunted joe and ethel. they said, we don't understand, can you help explain to us how after bobby got shot, so many of his voters went over and voted for wallace. i couldn't do it. i just heard, though, this talk about outsiders, and i do just wonder if americans is always looking for the outsider that's going to shake things up because for people that weren't around

in 1968, bobby kennedy was politically as opposite of george wallace as possible, and yet so many of those voters that lined the tracks to say good-bye to bobby, turned around, went home, and then supported george wallace. >> no question, americans like that person who's an outsider, whose promise is something different. you look at joe biden, he's such a decent man, but he does represent the washington establishment, career politician. i thought the strongest part of what biden had to say last night was his implicit appeal to republicans where he was stepping out of his comfort lane to say complicity is silence. you have to speak up. you have to do something about this. i would have been happy to be honest if after the terrible paul pelosi attack biden had summoned steve scalise, mitch

mcconnell, other republicans who were threatened themselves by violence, brought them to the white house and said as a group, we need all of us to stand against this. i think that would have been not the career politician's move, but something different, but you're right that americans do look for the person who's different, who's going to suggest change, who's going to disrupt, whether it's bobby kennedy or donald trump. still ahead on "morning joe," some potential new legal trouble for former president trump, first, one of his close associates agrees to testify before a grand jury in the mar-a-lago documents case. there's also this, new e-mails reveal how attorneys for trump saw justice clarence thomas as the key to overturning joe biden's 2020 presidential win. >> by the way, trump is such a dupe to believe that because he appoints justices they're going

to woo for him. they're justices for life. >> we're going to dig into both of those headlines. plus, the latest on the attack against paul pelosi, the husband of house speaker nancy pelosi, and some of the guests we'll be having on the show tomorrow morning, ohio democratic senate candidate tim ryan will join us. florida democratic senate candidate val demings will join the conversation, plus, bob woodward will be here with his new recordings from his interviews with former president trump. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. re watching" we'll be right back. ♪limu emu & doug♪

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36 past the hour. we are learning new details about the brutal attack on house speaker nancy pelosi's husband, including that capitol police had a camera monitoring pelosi's home, but no one was watching it at the time. >> that doesn't -- really? >> maybe she wasn't there. >> that kind of defeats the purpose, right, of having cameras at home. >> they have almost 2,000 cameras. she wasn't in the house. so in hindsight, yeah, someone should have been watching. >> speaker of the house, second in line. i'd at least put a couple of eyes on her, right? that's just me. >> nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer has the latest. >> reporter: as a hammer wielding david depape smashed his way into the pelosi home, he told them he knew this was a suicide mission, despite clear security, new court documents

reveal depape knew that the ring cameras outsides house captured his entry, but defendant remained undeterred. the suspect was inside the home alone with paul pelosi for nearly 30 minutes, arriving at approximately 2:00 a.m. >> the complaint says a private security guard working near the pelosi home the night of the attack saw a man in the area with a large bag. even after hearing banging, though, the security guard never called police. >> with the speaker of the house often the target of violent death threats, nbc news has confirmed capitol police in washington, d.c. have the ability to monitor pelosi's san francisco home 24 hours a day, but during the attack, no one was watching the feed. "the washington post" reporting after seeing flashing lights, officers rewound the footage, and could see the intruder break in. in court, depape, a canadian national pleading not guilty, but authorities say he admitted

to crimes. >> it is clear from his own statements what his intentions were. >> reporter: after the attack, depape told officers he had other plans. defendant named several targets including a local professor, several prominent state and federal politicians and relatives of those politicians. authorities painting the picture of a madman who easily broke into the home of the speaker of the house. >> nbc's miguel almaguer reporting for us there. >> you know, j.d. vance said. >> oh, god, come on. >> that the biggest problem here and the biggest danger to americans, canadians who overstay their work visa. don't look at the fact that the home of the person who's second in line to the presidency, a person who has been threatened with assassination for years, never mind the fact that there was a home invasion there and an 82-year-old man got his skull

crashed in. >> her husband. >> just focus on the canadians. blame canada as matt and trey say. blame canada. this is tarrington phillips fault, according to butters. >> how does he keep a straight face. >> it's a scourge, canadians overstaying their work visas. >> if canadians overstay their work visas, can any child go safely to school. some of the stupid things these people say. some of the stupid things they say, this new breed of republican candidates, just idiocy, canadians that overstay their work visa. >> what's worse, they're not stupid people. they know better, and yet they continue to push conspiracy theories or say, yes, this was

bad, but, and then we move on to canadians overstaying their work visas. >> by the way, south park the movie, where do you put it like between citizen cane and "gone with the wind." >> "casablanca," they change a little all year, don't eat, don't drink, don't mow your lawn. there's classic stuff in there. let's talk about the former president, donald trump, one of his top advisers has been granted immunity to testify before a federal grand jury about trump's handling of highly sensitive government documents seized by the fbi from his mar-a-lago home in august. that's according to a new report in the guardian, citing sources that say the justice department's interest with cash patel, claims the documents found at mar-a-lago were declassified as well as how the governments ended up at the property, and how trump's aides and lawyers responded to requests for their return. let's bring in a reporter on this piece, congressional

reporter for the guardian, hugo lowell. tell us more about this, cash patel, a central figure in this, they're granting him immunity, what do they expect to hear from him? >> it's significant, and it underscores the importance that doj has ascribed to cash patel as a witness. this is not a decision that the justice department takes lightly. this has to go through the top officials over at doj, and they have to basically make the case here to their internal kind of processes that they are going to forego, essentially, a case against patel to try and get a bigger fish, and in this case, it's almost certainly trump, and the focus is on the declassification of documents. this has become a central issue to mar-a-lago case that has been lingering over ever since the fbi's search of the president's home earlier in august. this is because the declassification could speak to trump's intent.

if cash patel, and trump thought, you know, we're going to talk about these documents being declassified. it gives us an excuse to say we don't have to return the documents. that would potentially be evidence of obstruction, and that's why this is significant. >> tell us a little bit more about cash patel, someone who raised a lot of alarms within the trump white house, who felt like he was a clandestined operator, doing trump's business, he has close connections to steve bannon, we know his outsized role in the universe. tell us about him, and why he was placed in trump's orbit as he takes the deal. >> these are tantalizing witnesses for the justice department. he was appointed by the former president as his representative to the national archives, which meant he was basically in the room where trump and the lawyers trying to figure out the kinds of documents that were potentially executive privilege,

the kind of documents that were potentially personal records and things that might have been responsive to the justice department's subpoena requesting all of these presidential documents be returned to the government. he's also a really close confidant of the former president. i don't think people realize how close cash patel is to trump. they speak almost daily. trump changes phone numbers quite often and cash patel is always with his latest phone number, knows exactly what he's thinking, and it's a level of access, actually, that other aides have come to envy to some degree, and i think that shows the degree to which he is in trump's inner circle. >> hugo, thank you so much for being with us. great reporting, we greatly appreciate it. david ignatius, you have done so much reporting on the cash patel, what can you tell us about him, and what's your reaction to this news? >> so kash patel is the most

important, consistent crusader in what they like to call the deep state. he did that when he was a staffer for congressman denver -- he was trying to reign in the deep state, then went to the defense department in the last months working with then secretary of defense that followed mark esper. since the election, he's been as our guardian colleague said, very close to trump. i think the importance of immunizing him is that it tells us that they really are closing in on donald trump as a potential target. they're speaking the testimony, compel the testimony through limited immunity of this close aide, so as to make a tough case

against the president and i have been uncertain whether an indictment was coming in the mar-a-lago case. it seems more and more likely that that's so. an indictment of president trump. otherwise why kash patel. >> exactly. >> a batch of just released e-mails revealed former president donald trump's attorneys saw supreme court justice clarence thomas as key to overturning the results of the 2020 presidential election. a u.s. district judge in california ordered the release of eight e-mails from trump's lawyers and others and "politico" was first to report on the contents. including discussions of legal strategies to convince republican members of congress to object to the official certification of electoral votes during the joint session of january 6th, 2021. in one e-mail from trump lawyer kenneth chesebro, he argued they

should frame things so thomas could be the one to issue some sort of stay or other circuit justice opinions saying georgia is an illegitimate doubt, real -- realistically our only chance, is from thomas, do you agree professor eastman. other e-mails continued to offer detailed strategy proposals about ways to delegitimize president biden's victory. >> so david ignatius, back to you. it is striking again, just how ignorant donald trump is of our system of checks and balances, yes, thomas. there are a lot of questions about he and ginni thomas, and those are always swirling around. there are obviously a lot of progressives upset about the dobbs decision, a lot of americans, a lot of

independents. as you look at these cases that involve -- the 65 cases that involve challenges to election integrity, trump and his team went 0-65. trump kept thinking, because i appointed him, they're going to undermine an election. >> it's the loyalty oath. >> a question of presidential privileges, where the court unanimously shuts him down. you can look at lindsey graham thinking that he's going to be able to gain federal judges and gain the supreme court. clarence thomas said let's have a listen to this for two or three days. they listened to the arguments and they told lindsey graham, he had to go and talk to the georgia grand jury. again, the ignorance of trump to think, since i appointed them, they're going to vote my way has been proven wrong time and time again on these issues involving mar-a-lago, these issues

involving the election, these issues involving other trump criminal proceedings. >> i was glad that biden reached out in his speech last night to brad raffensperger, a georgia republican who has been threatened physically, the group of people who were standing up for american democracy include a lot of republicans who have not gone the way that trump expected that they would. i thought a big part of biden's speech was to say this issue, the big lie has been tested and every court, every recount, every possible test of whether this big lie has any factual basis has been made, and there is no basis, and then that line, in our bones, we know that democracy is broken. i think that's the way he put it. i thought that was powerful, but your point keeps misunderstanding that election officials, judges, justices, in

the end are going to serve their oath. joining us now, congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany, she is an msnbc contributor, and jackie, you have a new report on these e nails, what more can you tell us about them? >> i want to dispute something you ended with, david. it's not just trump who has flouted the enormous of democracy, but these lawyers, john eastman, the fringy lawyers that were surrounding trump and helping him in his efforts to overturn the results of the election in the last few months of his presidency had reason to believe at least publicly that justice clarence thomas was going to be sympathetic to their cause. remember in december of 2020, thomas along with alito issued a brief statement after the audacious texas lawsuit was filed, calling to ultimately throw out the results of the

2020 election in four battleground states. the majority dismissed it, but alito and thomas expressed a statement that was sympathetic to the lawsuit, and said that the majority threw it out too quickly. now the question is, i think, privately, what reasons did john eastman and kenneth have to believe that thomas would be sympathetic to them if he got a lawsuit in front of them. thomas does oversee the emergency petitions from the circuit court. that includes georgia. so there was a reason for them to try to get it in front of him, but at the same time, ginni thomas, clarence thomas's wife was also in touch with john eastman who was once clarence thomas's law clerk, and eastman and ginni thomas were corresponding about efforts to overturn the results of the election as well. she was simultaneously e-mailing lawyers in arizona and wisconsin, state legislatures to implement this plan that john eastman had to disrupt the

electoral certification and throw out the results. it is a very small world here. there was no indication in the correspondence that either of the thomas's were cc'd on the e-mails, but you can clearly see why john eastman was fight sog hard to prevent the release of these e-mails. >> it's shocking, the behavior between john eastman, ginni thomas, and the efforts to overthrow, throw out democratic election for the presidency. also, their misreading of what clarence thomas and alito did when they went along with an opinion in a pennsylvania case. the only time the court wrote anything of substance on the election challenges, they said about the pennsylvania case, which involved the court in pennsylvania overruling the state legislature. that race is a constitutional question, and i think they rightly said, this race has

questions we probably should address now, but even if we did address them now, it wouldn't change the outcome of the election, so there you have even the two most conservative justices saying even if we take this question up, which we think we should, there aren't going to be enough votes to change the fact that joe biden's the next president of the united states. >> yeah, and we've seen now, again, in the state of georgia, jackie as well, the supreme court smacking down lindsey graham a couple of days ago denying his appeal to have his testimony thrown out, or that he wouldn't have to testify, excuse me. what is your sense of peril in georgia for donald trump, lindsey graham, all the people around him who clearly on the record, we have heard the tapes of donald trump with brad raffensperger, now we have seen the e-mails of trying to overturn the results of the election. >> georgia is ground zero for

legal exposure this former president faces. outside of fani willis's case she's building right now, there are also new indications in these e-mails that john eastman himself was aware of potential problems in terms of legal jeopardy trump could face in those e-mails, and one of them he actually warns the lawyers who were working with the president's team in georgia that if trump signed a certification for a lawsuit that they had already filed regarding voter fraud, which included claims of dead people voting, felons voting, et cetera, that there could potentially be problems because at that point, they had already warned the former president that a lot of these claims were fraudulent. >> right. >> that the justice department, the evidence that experts have preferred that they had were not actually accurate and that if trump resigned the litigation, he, again, could be facing some sort of criminal exposure so

that is john eastman himself saying that there were concerns that trump could face prosecution along with the lawyers involved with this. >> "the washington post," jackie alemany, thank you as always. jonathan lemire, talk about these machinations, especially with eastman. >> eastman, a central figure here. it was his scheme to place a slate of fake electors, georgia, arizona, that would allow them to toss out the result. he's under extraordinary legal scrutiny. >> do you think he's in trouble legally? >> there are people i talk to that say yes, he has significant legal exposure, and what you have been saying about supreme court justice thomas, trump expected him to do his bidding, a trump aide recently told me that that philosophy is one of the things that has gotten trump into trouble more than just about anything else, this idea he expects blind loyalty to

himself, looking for his roy cohn, he demanded it from james comey, the white house counsel's office, from judges he appointed, and those ended up be some of the last barriers that held against him. >> he's 0 and 65 in federal cases. so, you know, i'm an optimist, a positive guy. >> a little too optimistic. >> mika thinks i'm too optimistic. i think we'll get through this. that being said, wisconsin, you have an election denier who may actually be the next governor of wisconsin and you look at the other looneys that are running up there, the election deniers, there aren't brad, i mean, have you talked to democrats who

actually now believe that if the election denier, they win in wisconsin that that's just a state that democrats are going to have to write off '24 and '28 and beyond. >> it's very alarming. when you look at states like wisconsin and arizona where you have two election deniers who are if they win will be in the governor's offices in the states and they will effectively control the elections as well as some of their down ballot candidates, too. so when you are dealing with close races which, i mean, we'll see what happens in 2024, but history shows that wisconsin and arizona tend to be close states. it's very much top of mind. how do we actually deal with a fair election in a state where an election denier is leading the state. especially if something is very very close. it's certainly something people have their eye on right now. it's something you'll see. we're focusing on it now.

if those people win, it will be more of a focus. >> the stakes in arizona, the stakes in wisconsin just couldn't be higher. >> yeah. >> i mean, we all look at the senate races but when you look at this, and the governor's races, if you're looking for fair and free elections, that's actually on the ballot in wisconsin and arizona specifically. >> you know, it used to be the issues, right, joe, and it still is, we have this other layer of protecting democracy on top of that, and making sure elections remain free and fair, and that is something that we also -- an extra layer we have to contend with. adrienne elrod, david ignatius, thank you as well. the federal reserve raises interest rates again. steve rattner joins us with a look at what it means for the u.s. economy and the fight against inflation and what might be ahead. plus, white house chief of staff ron klain joins us on the

heels of president biden's speech last night. "morning joe" is coming right back. ast night. "morning joe" is coming right back from the start, carmax has reimagined used car buying for you. so you can buy online... or on the lot. with upfront pricing, so you never have to negotiate. and express pickup, so you can get your car, on your time. all with an unmatched 30-day money back guarantee, so you can buy with confidence. that's car buying reimagined. carmax. xfinity rewards is a program whose sole purpose is to say "thank you" with experiences big, small and once-in-a-lifetime. sometimes it's about cheering hard enough to shake the stadium! sometimes, it's as simple as movie night right here at home, on us. you mean the world to us. so we're bringing you closer to what you love. kinda like this.

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i appeal to all americans regardless of party, to meet this moment of national and generational importance. we must vote knowing what's at stake and not just the policy of the moment, but institutions that have held us together as we've sought a more perfect union are also at stake. we must vote knowing who we have been, what we're at risk of becoming. >> it's the top of the hour, and that's president joe biden continuing his messaging against what he calls maga extremism. framing this election as one that will decide what kind of country we will become. plus, barack obama isn't the only former president on the trail for democrats. bill clinton is out there, and

he says the republican game plan is really pretty simple. we'll play those comments for you. also ahead, kanye west's anti-semitic rants are nothing new, according to a former employee and multiple others who have worked with the rapper. the new reporting is straight ahead. meanwhile, the brooklyn nets and kyrie irving are trying to clean up a pr nightmare over his promotion of a film filled with false information about jewish people. >> i mean, willie, is this guy worth it for the nets. >> they are a mess, first of all. >> we thought they would be the alternative to the mess of the new york knicks. they're more of a mess. >> we're going to have jonathan greenblatt, he spoke to kyrie irving, a long statement put out, not an apology in there, but they made a big donation,

and kyrie irving has defended what he posted for several days, and now enough people, i guess, got to him. he heard the noise and pressure he felt compelled to put out the statement. >> it's not an apology. >> he posted about this anti-semitic film, and had a self-righteous lecturing the media, he wasn't going to be told what to think or believe. i agree, at what point, he's a beautiful basketball player, he really is one of the best in the game, one of the best to play at point guard, but at what point is all that comes with him not worth it. >> it's just not worth it, mike. it's just not worth it, for your franchise. are kids going to want to go around wearing his jersey? i mean, who's going to want to sponsor that team that continues to let a guy who won't apologize for promoting anti-semitism. >> it's just the latest element of kyrie irving's career and

life. he's a flat earth guy. he believes the earth is flat. he's a team killer. the only time he has been able to play as sort of a part of a basketball unit, five people on the court, was when lebron james ran him in cleveland. and that was years ago. he was with the celtics, committed to a lifelong deal with the celtics, and left the celtics two weeks after he made that commitment. he's a very different human being, and clearly he has some real issues with reality, as witness to what we're talking about today. >> joining the conversation, former aide to the george w. bush white house and state department's elise jordan back with us, and former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner is here as well. a lot to talk with steve about, the economy and fed and interest rates and are there more rate hikes to come. >> steve is going to give us stock tips in minutes. >> let's start with our top

story this morning, president joe biden spoke last night about the midterm elections and the future of our democracy. the president delivered the remarks from washington's union station just blocks from the u.s. capitol. he spoke for almost 20 minutes, addressing the attack on nancy pelosi's husband, the big lie, and other threats to democratic institutions. >> this intimidation, this violence against democrats, republicans, and non-partisan officials, just doing their jobs with the consequence of lies told for power and profit, lies of conspiracy and malice. lies repeated over and over to generate a cycle of anger, hate, vitriol and even violence. in this moment, we have to confront those lies with the truth. the very future of our nation

depends on it. my fellow americans, we're facing a defining moment, an inflection point. we must with one overwhelming unified voice speak as a country and say there's no place, no place for voter intimidation or political violence in america. whether it's directed at democrats or republicans. no place period, no place ever. this is also the first election since the events of january 6th when the armed angry mob stormed the u.s. capitol. i wish i could say the assault on our democracy had ended that day, but i cannot. as i stand here today, there are candidates running for every level of office in america, for governor, congress, attorney general, secretary of state, who won't commit -- they will not commit to accepting the results of an election that they're

running in. this is a path to chaos in america. it's unprecedented. it's unlawful, and it's un-american. i said before, you can't love your country only when you win. >> president biden will be back on the campaign trail today with stops in new mexico and california, and i know the concern for a lot of people will be inflation, and what isn't the truth that this is the decision people are making at the midterms? >> it's one of the decisions. obviously for us, i think when we go to vote, this will be the most important decision. i think that will be the case for a lot of people that are watching this show. elise, you have been out, you've done focus groups.

you know, it used to be when you do focus groups, you would debate the iraq war with voters, tax cuts, educational funding, how to rein in the worst instinct of wall street traders, now we're in a post truth political world for about 30, 40, 45% of the electorate who believe conspiracy theories. that believe the election was stolen. how many candidates, i mean, here's the president, he's talking about midterms where the majority of republicans in the house now election deniers? have they officially bought into the conspiracy theory, all the candidates out there. we now have a president who actually, it's remarkable. he's got to go up and convince people not of his political views but that as a nation we need to actually stop the lies.

>> you know, what president biden said was an important message, but other than those democratic voters who are already part of his base and going to turn out for him, it's not really going to resonate just because of the message on the economy, and i wish that he would do a better job of connecting how important it is that our democratic institutions are strong for the overall health of the american economy. the american capitalism thrives because we are known for having free and fair elections. if that goes away in the world, maybe the investment flow is not going to be as good in this country, and investors can find other places. i think there needs to be a little bit more of a connection to how democracy impacts the ordinary americans' life. >> you look at polls and the growing number of people who support an authoritarian leader who doesn't have to worry about the constraints of elections or the constraints of congress, i mean, those polls are out there. those numbers are growing. and then you look at what's

happening in china right now, which had a thriving economy five years ago. it's still not a bad economy, but the rise of even harsher authoritarian leadership under xi, you look at the fact that the russians can't find a war against the ukrainians, because, again, truth has never mattered to them, and it does add up, steve. >> sure. i think democracy is at the core of all of this, and it's something that we should all be worried about. i think as elise said, i think the problem is for the average american, where the real wages after inflation and so forth are going down. we have had all of these disruptions to the economy, it's hard to say to them, you know, you should be worried about democracy instead of gas prices when gas prices are in front of them all the time. there's no question that democracy is the way to prosperity, and freedom and other good things that we should

all be worried about it. >> and participating in it. >> people think it's frustrating. gas prices are more important for democracy. for a lot of people they never get to the point where they're looking at democracy because they're worried about whether they're going to be able to afford the commute to their job. they're worried about whether they're going to be able to pay rent for the next month, they're worried about how they're going to be able to even afford their groceries. >> yeah. >> they don't get the philosophical questions that we do. >> exactly, and you want people in office who are going to protect democracy. you can't get them if you don't talk to the voters about issues that matter, and you get people who protect democracy. there are people who are doing this successfully. watch tim ryan at the fox news town hall two nights ago. watch josh shapiro, wes moore,

he's running a great campaign to be governor there. there are candidates who say this democracy thing is critically important, and if you elect that person, i'm not sure they're going to respect the results of elections going forward. also, i get it, it's about the gas and the groceries. >> we might have to call our friend in tennessee to check this out historically, jon meacham, but i do believe this is the first time we have had a president of the united states address the nation with the theme that, hey, our democracy is on the level. free and fair elections are what we're all about. we have been doing this for a long time. it's unstable now. it's in danger now of disappearing. that's a touch message to receive as joe just pointed out. you know, when you're worried about only buying so many items at the grocery store because you can only afford so many item . >> explain that. saturday my dad would go grocery

shopping. he loved going out, talking to people, and you and my dad have that in common. >> that's when i do the grocery shopping, saturday morning, and i have noticed the past two to three saturday mornings, the extended line in the 12 items or under, the express line is longer than it's been in a long long time because people are now buying just for the moment, just to get through the weekend, saturday and sunday. there's no more -- usually there's not as many big shoppers in a store on a friday or saturday as they used to be with the cart full. the carts are no longer full. the hand baskets are full, and they're using the rapid check out line. they're worried. they're worried. you go to a gas station, and you watch the number of patrons who arrive at the gas station, next to you, put the pump in their car or truck. landscapers, and will put in 20 or $30 worth of gas, and that's

it because they can't cap themselves out at 80, 90 or $100. >> there's nothing more real to people than inflation, grocery store costs, gas prices, and i know we're going to go to steve on where the economy is headed. you mentioned sort of the struggle for our democracy as it pertains to how people are perceiving it as a philosophical issue. i think the president was trying to emphasize, we're not talking philosophically, awe in the future, something that might happen. we're talking about these elections and what will happen to our country, and what it will look like if election deniers across the country, the secretaries of state, governors, all the way on up win elections and it looks like they will, and what it will look like. >> and i'm saying that if you're in the suburbs of philadelphia and you're worried about keeping

your children in the apartment for another month, and you're worried about how you're going to afford your groceries or how you're going to afford your commute into the city every day, because you just don't have the money, you really don't give a damn about who's going to be the governor of arizona because you're worried about your kids, so i'm not saying that this isn't the most important issue involving our democracy in ages. i'm just saying that there are people out there that aren't focused on this because they're focused on keeping their kids in that apartment. >> are you saying the way to win this fight for democrats is to talk about those kitchen table issues and i'm honestly asking and ignore something that's too difficult to message? >> god no. >> so what is the message about our democracy. >> every time i gave a political

speech, i had three things i was going to push. this would be here, but i would start with the fact that -- >> so do it. >> if i was talking to seniors, i would start with the fact that republicans keep talking about social security and medicare. they keep talking about wanting to mess with your social security and medicare. the guy that runs the senate campaign says he wants to deep six it every five years, and then let congress go back and vote on it. i would start there. i would talk about that and say joe biden understands, it's hard to pay bills but you're going to get the biggest cost of living adjustment in 40 years. it will keep up with costs. you're covered there but the republicans don't want you to be covered there. i would talk about crime. some people say don't talk about crime. you got to go there, and talk about crime if you're in the suburbs of philadelphia, and say you've got, you know, republicans are talking about defunding the fbi.

you're talking about republicans sitting there and praising people, just like tim ryan is talking about, starting actually funds for people to beat the hell out of cops on capitol hill. and you can go through all of this, and then i'd figure out a way to get to the end of it and say, by the way, these people don't even -- they don't even believe in protecting american democracy, and figure out how to roll that in. that's your last point, which of course you think is your most important point, but i think, elise, for the people that you've spoken with on both sides they're not -- and i'm thinking about the block voters in central philly that were talking about crime. you got to start there and then get to voting rights and get to democracy, and again, because that's where you want to end up, that's your key point, but you've got to reach the people

where they live, and right now, it's inflation, it's crime. if you're in arizona, it's the southern border. if you're in texas along the border, even hispanics are saying, you know, it's the southern border, and it's the economy. you got to reach people where they live. >> when republicans just really have crushed democrats on the issue of crime because so many democrats were hesitant to approach it. there are plenty of ways, as you just mentioned, that they can approach crime. say this is nuts. they want to fund beating up cops on capitol hill. this is not, you know, blue lives matter. they want to pay for weapons of war on your streets but they don't want to fund cops at the street corner to, you know, police petty crime. there are plenty of ways. >> they won't even do anything when little children are getting gunned down in schools and the cops have to wait outside. there were ten republicans that

did, but chances are good, if you're a democrat, you're running against a republican that would oppose universal background checks, that would oppose making it impossible for an 18-year-old to get their hands on a weapon of war. >> you look at the ad spending and you look at how in wisconsin, ron johnson ran crime ads you, look at how dr. oz in pennsylvania ran crime ads all of september, all of these ads, this barrage of ads, and finally five days for closing arguments, democrats just didn't get around to meeting the moment and meeting the argument, which is a genuine concern of people from all stripes of the electorate. >> we showed a pugh poll yesterday that echoed what reverend al has been saying for years now, and that is that the overwhelming majority of people he speaks to on sunday mornings are worried about crime, and you have woke people saying, oh, you can't talk about crime because that's racist, and that's just

the truth. i've heard it. that's just a racist republican talking point. this pugh pole shows 30% of white democrats think crime is an issue. over 80% of black democrats are worried about it. here we go. i think the democratic leadership has been blind to this concern for black americans, and i hope it doesn't. i hope that doesn't stop black voters from going out and voting. >> of course black voters are concerned about crime. the vast majority of crime in new york is against people of color in one form or another, and they're the ones who actually are in most danger, more than any of us sitting on the set. there are three issues as you said, paramount in the election, inflation/economy, and immigration and crime. the democrats have by and large done a terrible job of messaging that. they come to the election with baggage on crime because of the

whole defund the police movement that they have to walk back to a sensible place. immigration, you tell me what the administration's policy is on immigration. i don't know what it is, and i pay a reasonable amount of attention. >> it's madness. it's nothing. it started by actually sounding like they were encouraging. >> people to come to the border. >> and 2 million of them got arrested trying to cross the border. >> it's nothing, and it's madness, and if you even try to talk about it, you're cast out as some trumpist, some racist trumpist. come on, get real. there are people in arizona. there are people in texas, hispanics, people of color in those states that are concerned about illegal immigration. you can enforce the laws of america in a humane way. i'm surprised more democrats haven't figured out how to say that because barack obama, one

of my favorites stats, i'm sorry, i have to say it again, illegal border crossings, right here, camera, i'm not good at this one, illegal border crossings were at a 50-year low across the southern border, barack obama's last year as president. at the same time donald trump was spreading his nonsense about building the wall, which republicans didn't even want, illegal border crossings at a 50-year low. they started to spike in 2017, donald trump's first year as president. let's do the obama model, we can enforce our laws and do it in a humanitarian way. i don't understand why this freaks progressives out, but it does. >> that's not how they talk. >> it does, and it's causing

problems for candidates in the southwest. >> sure. look, i think the whole influence of the progressives on this administration is causing problems. it's made it harder to talk about crime. it's made it harder to talk about the border. the administers is wearing the fact that they think it was transitory, it's going to go away, and they have to explain to the american people why they're not responsible for it. they haven't done a good job on any of these issues. >> we're going to get to your charge in a moment. stand by, steve, and white house chief of staff ron klain will be our guest as well, and josh shapiro will join us on his race to be the state's next governor, and the revelations about payouts kanye west made after previous anti-semitic comments. the head of the antidefamation league will join us. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. re watching" we'll be right back.

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the rock, beautiful day in new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." it is 27 past the hour. time now to go straight to steve rattner's charts. and the fed lifts rates again, and it feels like there might be some gloom and doom being predicted ahead or what do you think, steve? >> well, i think we're going to have higher rates for the foreseeable future but the economy itself is doing okay. we can talk about all that. first let's talk about rates. obviously inflation is the story of the moment, and that is what has been driving the fed, as you can see on this chart, on the left, we chart the current path of the interest rate increases against the historic ones over

the last 40 years, and the blue line that you can see is the famous inflation on how high he had to hike rates to get inflation under control. what you can see on the left is we are increasing rates today faster than we have increased them in any of these other cycles, 3/4 of a percentage point increases are extremely large by fed standards. if you look at the right, you can see the red line, inflation, took off back in the early part of 2021, then the fed essentially did nothing for almost a year. it's been having to play catch up ball, and the other thing that is worrying the fed is you can see on the red line is that inflation isn't coming down. it's sitting up there. >> and why is that, steve? why is inflation not coming down? >> let's turn to the next chart and i'll answer that question. did you peek ahead? >> i'm a curious guy. >> why is it not coming down, here are a couple of reasons. first, we have a huge number of unfilled jobs in this marketplace. we have about 11 million

unfilled jobs. we learned that a few days ago. and that's two jobs for every american who's actually looking for job. that puts upward pressure on wages, higher wages are generally good except when you're trying to get inflation under control when they're not so good. the second thing on the right side of the chart is something we have talked about before, joe, which is the excess savings in the economy. we poured 2 1/2 trillion dollars in american's pockets including money they didn't spend. they have been gradually working that off. it's still well over a trillion and a half dollars, $2 trillion, consumers are still spending, even though their real incomes are going down. we had a gdp report last week showing the economy growing at 2.6%, and back to the political discussion, there are things to be said about the economy that somehow get lost in the whole inflation figure. >> the last point is that rates are going to continue to go up for the foreseeable future, and in fact, the market has been

increasing its expectation of where it thinks rates are going. as you can see on the last chart i have, which shows you back last august, there we go. back last august, you can see the market rates would be peak earlier at 3 1/4%. gradually ratcheting it up. peaking about 5%. and this has real implications for americans. mortgage rates are over 7%. that's another thing that politically we have to deal with. good for savers, bad for borrowers, people trying to buy a home. >> we have been talking about, hearing the fed chairman talk about a soft landing for quite some time. sounded like he was giving up on that yesterday for the most part. we're not going to have a soft landing. we're going to have a recession, and it may be pretty rough. >> i think that is the likely scenario. look, trying to engineer a reduction inflation from these levels down to the 2% that the

fed wants is a lit like landing a big jet liner on an air craft carrier. it's hard. now starting to talk realistically about what's to come. >> how did jay powell miss it for so long? >> it's a good question, mike. you have to also recognize the biden administration missed it. jay powell was up for reappointment, and the white house was signaling they thought inflation was going to come down. jay powell is a team player. there are a lot of good economists and smart people. >> most people missed it. you did not. larry summers did not. there aren't many democratic economists that got this right. >> and the reason was -- nor republicans. the reason was we hadn't had

inflation for four years, and the economic models had adjusted themselves almost to the point where they said it was impossible to create inflation. we haven't had inflation for 40 years, so we can put 2 1/2 trillion dollars in the economy and it's not going to cause inflation. >> for people that look at biden's one covid bill as the thing that caused this massive eruption in inflation, to me, at least, strikes me as being preposterous when you look at the trillions dumped into the economy by trump, you look at massive budgets even pre-covid. massive deficits, massive debt pre-covid that trump pumped into the economy. you look at the debt driven up during the obama years. you look at the debt driven up by the bush years. i know you and i, since i have known you, have been warning, you can't keep deficit spending. we said this in the obama years,

the bush years, the trump years, you can't keep throwing money into the economy and not expect eventually inflation to happen. >> and that's what we got, the other part was the fed, and yes, the biden administration's first rescue plan was probably too much. we were already on the path to recovery from covid. it wasn't what created inflation. you talk about trillions. the fed put many trillions into the economy than we did through the american rescue plan, and so, yeah, it's not all on bind. as you know, the guy sitting in the control seat, gets either the credit or the blame. >> how much worse will inflation have been, though, if build back better had passed in the huge form that the biden administration originally tried to get it through. >> you have to say that the congress saved the prosecute from himself. joe manchin saved the president from himself. if that bill had passed it would have added to all of this, it would have added to the deficits

and debt, and created a bigger problem that we would have had to unwind. in a way, we got lucky it got dialled back to a sensible place. >> steve rattner, thank you as always. on the show tomorrow morning, two members of congress trying to make the move to the senate, tim ryan and val demings will be our guest tomorrow morning, also "the washington post's" bob woodward. back with more of those recordings, his recordings of very revealing interviews with former president trump, and two special "morning joe" events to tell you about. first, this sunday at 9:00 eastern on msnbc, a special prime time hour of "morning joe" as we look ahead at the critical races and key issues on the ballot ahead of tuesday's vote, and then the morning after the election, a special edition of "morning joe" in front of a live studio audience. we're going to break down the results with an all-star political panel and also some special guests.

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to follow up on the promotion of the movie and the book. >> can you please stop calling it a promotion. what am i promote something. >> put it out on your platform. >> but i'm promoting it. >> by putting it out there, people are saying you're promoting it. >> i put it out there like you put things out there. you put them out there for a living. >> great, let's move on. >> my stuff is not filled with anti-semitic stuff. >> don't dehumanize me. >> you're free to post -- >> i can post whatever i want.

say that and shut it down and move on to the next question. >> you have to understand by posting -- >> i don't have to understand anything from you. move on. >> by posting what you did anybody that's going to look at it and they're going to say you have anti-semitic beliefs. >> this is going to be a clip he's going to marvel at. anymore questions. >> let's make another instagram clip so we can be famous again. next question. >> so this guy, willie, promotes an anti-semitic film, i'm sorry, did somebody -- >> explain. >> this isn't even sort of sorry. this guy is not sorry for anything. and i want to know why this guy is still playing on the team. he's an anti-semite, he promotes it and has no apology for this. why is this guy on a basketball team. >> that was on saturday before the heat came down on him.

great job by the reporter staying with the question. of course you were promoting it by putting it out. that's the point of having social media is to elevate things, draw attention to them. of course that's what he was doing. that was saturday. one day after kyrie irving tweeted a link to a documentary that promotes anti-semitic tropes, and we're going to explain how anti-semitic it is in a moment. it led to more criticism, amid the backlash, irving and the team now each say they will donate $500,000 to fight hate. irving, the nets and antidefamation league. >> i oppose all forms of hatred and oppression, and stand strong with communities marginalized every day. i'm aware of my negative impact, and take responsibility. i do not believe everything said in the documentary was true or reflects my morals and principles, i'm a human being learning from all walks of life, and i intend to do so with an open mind and a willingness to

listen. so for my family and i we meant no harm to any one group, race or group of people, and hope to only be a beacon of life. joining us, jonathan greenblatt, and host of espn daily, pablo tory. great to have you with us. tell us about the reporter asking the question, number one, and also, you went and after this all exploded and watched this movie. you can bring us some context about what kyrie irving was promoting. >> that was my colleague, the nets beat writer who is the one who has to ask hard questions to this guy. a test that the nba has failed in terms of getting both accountability to your point earlier and also answers to questions, right, and so the film, i think this is a story that is both complicated and also extraordinarily simple because the film, when you watch it, is not just vaguely

anti-semitic, it is ancient outright brain wormed unambiguous anti-semitism. >> explain. >> holocaust denial anti-semitism. 6 million jews did not die in world war ii in the holocaust. quotes from adolph hitler clearly fake, cited to a secret document in an undisclosed location that was provided at his death. just like tropes, unambiguous tropes. and what we have not -- we have not gotten yet, despite the statement from the nets and kyrie and the adl is him actually answering questions about what in the film he disavows. it is vague and general right now, and that is where the nba, via lack of punishment and lack of answers is failing a test. >> pablo, on the sports side of this, let's talk about is kyrie irving worth it to the brooklyn nets. they've got a whole mess of

problems, they fired the coach, steve nash as if he was the problem. how do they hold on to kyrie irving, how is he worth it? >> it feels like utter desperation. they were supposed to win a championship. they have failed repeatedly. it feels like what you do when you're not sured if you will be employed next year in terms of management, and it's an open question. if he speaks, again, not a statement, but actually him answering questions in front of a microphone. is he actually going to remain employed. that seems to be why they're not putting him in front of a microphone. >> what will it mean to apologize at this point given what we saw in the clip a few days ago. jonathan greenblatt, i know you helped kyrie irving or drafted the statement he put out with him, the adl, and kyrie irving, can you talk a little bit about the back channel work, what you

spoke to kyrie irving about, and do you believe what he said in the statement? >> yes, stepping back, this happened on friday of last week when it was initially posted. i was immediately in touch with ownership and management of the nets to try and understand where in the world this was coming from. this is not exactly oscar award winning material. this movie is slanderous and hateful. it wouldn't stand the test of a third grader watching it thinking it was real. now, that being said, what i saw on friday night was, you know, a degree of contrition and shame from net's ownership. you may have seen the tweet, we worked with the team and kyrie's family and the nba over the weekend. where we are today is, look, i wish it had happened sooner, i really do, but i appreciated the statement that he ended up making. it wasn't where he was a few days ago as you saw in the clip.

and, look, the only way that we can beat back bigotry, the only way we win in the fight against hate is by winning hearts and minds. it's critical, and so we are going to not only invest in anti-semitism education, we're going to hold a series of community conversations in brooklyn and i hope around the country to look at these issues and to literally not just engage in dialogue and heal the divide, but bring people together in black and jewish communities who so clearly desperately need it, and that in my opinion is a big win. >> jonathan, what's going on here, you've got trump is making anti-semitic comments, you have the pelosi attacker has anti-semitic creeds in his manifestos that he's putting out there. you have this horrific film promoted, yes, promoted, let's just say it, promoted by an nba

player. >> yeah. >> you got kanye who is just saying the most horrific things. we now find out that he's had to have settlements with former employees because he was such an anti-semite. you've got him posting, attacking ari emanuel. you talk about just going after jewish businessmen. why doesn't he talk about international bankers like republicans. why doesn't he start using those code words, going after ari emanuel. a guy who has a picture of emmett till after he's brutalized and killed and kay yan's the guy that said slavery was voluntary? it's not an overstatement to say he's putting ari emanuel and his family's life in danger. it's not an overstatement to say

that anti-semitism continues to spread like wildfire. i'm curious, why is it taking organizations so long? why is kanye still on spotify? why is kanye still universal musical group? why are these people still promoting a guy who promoted hitler? >> yeah, i really can't speak to the way that some companies have been so irresponsible in this moment. i was on your show two weeks ago, and i said, you know, we're going to come after adee -- adidas and we did. i'm glad they turned it around, though a little late. that image on instagram, that post of him comparing himself to emmett till was so profane, and such, really, just a travesty. now, all of that being said, ignorance is not an excuse for anti-semitism, but the intention

that kanye west continues to show is why we think he should be shunned. >> jonathan, talking basically, it's not lost on anybody, he's going after a jewish businessman who he's saying masa, oh, you're my masa. again, the trope. the anti-semitic tropes are horrific. >> yeah, these tropes lead to terror. jewish people have been killed by those who have said, like we saw in pittsburgh, that somehow jews were trying to replace white people as immigrants, or as we saw in jersey real jews. what kanye west is doing is putting ari emanuel life in danger and our lives in danger when he delivers this poison without sufficient pushback in

my opinion. but if i compare where kanye was to where kyrie is, if we can do more dialogue we can win, and yet there is a reason why the jewish community is so alarmed. there is a reason why the sdl is so mobilized. it is the stuff on twitter. and now we have new ownership there. we can talk about my meeting with elon musk. we have nba star, hip hop entertainers, former presidents all contributing to an environment in which anti-semitism is at levels we haven't seen in 45 years. that is scary not just to me, but to jewish people around the country. and i'll say one more thing. anti-semitism and hate is corrosive to democracy, a sign of decay in a society. so this is not just a republican or jewish or democrat problem, it is an american problem. >> so much to talk about. but i want to talk about not

just simply the league responding to kyrie irving's posts and all the things, how are his colleagues responded, how have the players in the league responded? >> it has been disappointingly quiet. and this is part of the trouble here. i understand that there -- content moderation broadly is a problem. you mentioned twitter. every platform is trying to figure out what is free speech, what are the lines. but it seems like this is falling under the category of a guy just asking questions. which is a pernicious tradition in its own right. you can be an influencer, but part of the deal is that you have to be ready to answer to criticism. not censorship, but just questions and criticism and that is where his colleagues have been -- for a league that is very much priding itself on social justice, this feels like again an obvious call that very few people are making. >> and i want to point out kanye west posted a picture of kyrie a couple days ago with the kanks

there are real ones still here. after he made those comments and posted about that movie. what about adam silver, a commissioner rightly praised for the job he has done for years. players like him by and large, around social justice, around donald sterling, he's done a good job. where is he on the kyrie irving question? >> disappointing on that front too. the nba has released statements previous to the apology last night in which kyrie's name is not even mentioned. >> so why is it that the nba -- why are they such champions for social justice for everybody except jews? >> so i think what the nba has to answer for is whether they are actually in favor of social justice and standing up against bigotry broadly, or whether they basically benefit from a strong alliance with players. adam silver has benefited from a comparison to roger goodell who wars with his players over these

issues. adam silver has an excellent relationship with the employees of the nba. but when it comes to a situation where the employees are not seemingly all on the same page as the larger enlightened progressive agenda, and i'll use that in square quotes, we're finding out a lot of the complications about running this league. >> jonathan, you mentioned elon musk a couple minutes ago, that you have met with him. as you know more than most, the embers of anti-semitism are always out there in this country and in this world. and now elon musk is running twitter. and there are more than just embers of anti-semitism on twitter, a lot more than that. what was your conversation like with elon musk? >> so i spoke with elon musk a few days ago and said that there is really a need as he is taking over the platform -- look, he is less than a week into running one of the most complicated businesses out there in terms of social media.

nonetheless, you know, again as a jewish community, we're concerned. other targeted groups are concerned. and he expressed to me in a private conversation his intent to not change content moderation policies. and honestly, not to make it a haven for incitement. threats and incitement doesn't work for anyone. there needs to be change. and then he was willing, mike, to take a meeting with the stop hate for profit coalition. the adl and naacp, george bush center and others who you might remember, we're the ones who pushed facebook to finally make a series of concessions in 2020 that led to a bunch of change. we had a very constructive meeting. it was encouraging. and he made some very specific promises. he promised not to replatform, you know, the worst elements who had been pushed off of twitter until after the election is certified and when he has

developed a transparent process to explain the rules. he also promised to maintain hit intention on -- >> sounds like you feel like you had a good meeting with elon. >> actions speak louder than words. >> yeah. >> i'll judge him by what he does, not by what he says. but look, we're only a few days in to the new leadership. so we'll wait and see. but you know, joe, in this fight against hate, you have got to be optimistic, you have got to be positive. and you've got to be vigilant. so we're going to take him at his word and hold him accountable. >> other civil rights leaders also privately expressed optimism that elon musk that you see on twitter isn't the ealone musk on that phone call. so that is good news. jonathan greenblatt, thank you so much. let's take a hard turn here

and go from the nba, major league baseball, to the world series. we would like to pretend around here at least, we're houston astros deniers. we'd like to pretend that last night didn't happen. but as people who love the game of baseball, we can't do that. >> got bad news for you. >> when you have something happening that hasn't happened since don larsen, i mean, a perfect game, historic, right in. >> i mean, joe, the houston astros can be held to account for their past crimes, the cheating scandal, all that stuff, fair. but ever since then, they have only reinforced the idea that this is actually just the best team in baseball. and it is not particularly close. i mean, this is a humiliation to a city by the way philadelphia that has been on one of these magical sort of delirious runs. >> incredible. >> but being no hit in the world series is rock bottom.

>> eagles are playing the texans in texas tonight. >> that's right. >> national tv on espn. and the astros and phillies are teeing it up both 80 miles south of here in philadelphia. we know where the ratings are going to go tonight. i would suspect the nfl. but on the astros team specifically, do you think as i believe despite their past of cheating they are by far the best organization, baseball organization, from the minor leagues up and have been for three or four years and they never get any credit for it. >> right. i mean, this is the distinction. they are not just the best team, but they are extraordinarily well run top to bottom. it raises the question of like this is -- in some ways it is the barry bonds question but for an organization. you didn't need to cheat. you're so good. you're so good at this. why did you do it. but there is just no room left

for reasonable i think disagreement with the idea that this actually is as -- it is as good as you could get it when it comes to, yeah, how you put together a top to bottom baseball team. >> pablo, thank you very much for coming on the show. come back. >> i will. >> good to have you on. the latest episode of espn daily is out this morning on apple podcasts. and still ahead, president biden labels tuesday's midterm elections a defining moment for democracy. we'll have more from his remarks last night as he prepares for campaign stops in california and new mexico today. and a rally with former president barack obama in philadelphia this weekend. plus pennsylvania's attorney general josh shapiro will join us to discuss his bid to become the state's next governor. this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free.

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make no mistake, democracy is on the ballot for all of us. we must remember that democracy is a covenant. we need to start looking out for each other again. seeing ourselves as we the people, not as entrenched enemies. this is a choice we can make. this union and chaos are not inevitable. >> president biden makes a plea for unity to protect our democracy. but will his message break through to voters who might be more concerned about the economy? we'll have a live report from the white house also ahead. and there is new reporting this morning on the candidates who are trying to cross party lines in the final stretch of the campaign. and someone who might benefit in a big way from split ticket voting is the democratic

candidate for governor in pennsylvania, josh shapiro joins us in a moment. and speaking of governors, more women than ever are running in those races. we'll highlight some of the women who could make history in these midterms. welcome back to "morning joe," it is thursday, november 3. jonathan and elyse are still with us. a great hour ahead. in his primetime address in front of the nation, president biden delivers his closing argument ahead of the midterms. warning everyone that democracy itself is on the ballot next week. and kristen welker has more. >> reporter: with democrats on defense in the final midterm push, president biden sharpening his closing message overnight. >> democracy is on the ballot for all of us. >> reporter: focusing on voter intimidation, political violence, and those who won't commit to accepting election results. >> we the people must decide

whether the rule of law will prevail or that we'll allow the dark forces to thirst -- that thirst for power put ahead of the principles that have long guided us. >> reporter: mr. biden framed his speech around the attack on paul pelosi, husband of nancy pelosi. denouncing those who have joked or spread false information about it. >> we must with an overwhelming voice stand against political violence and voter intimidation, period. >> reporter: mr. biden spoke less than two blocks from the u.s. capitol, symbolic because this will be the first national elections since the january 6 attack against the capitol nearly two years ago. >> i wish i could say the assault on our democracy had ended that day. but i cannot. >> reporter: the president placing blame squarely at the feet of his predecessor, former president trump, for refusing to concede the 2020 election. with his poll numbers sagging,

mr. biden has mostly stayed off the campaign trail, instead focusing on key issues like the economy and abortion. while wednesday marked a shift in his rhetoric, it is unclear if voters will respond. many are more worried about pocketbook problems. according to a poll released yesterday, far more voters say inflation is the most urgent issue facing the country than any other issue. mitch mcconnell, top gop leader in the senate, tweeting president biden is desperate to change the subject from inflation, crime and open borders. now he's claiming that democracy only works if his party wins. other top republicans also lashing out. >> the democrats were dividing us as they move forward. they just want to distract from the disasters they created. >> and jonathan, you have a little back story on this, the theme of the speech was the president saying we can no longer take democracy for granted. the question remains as mitch mcconnell and others have pointed out, is that the message

that is going to drive voters to the polls or convince unconvinced voters to vote for democrats? >> the president of course addressed the threat to democracy in his summer speech in philadelphia that got so much attention with that blood red backdrop. but even then, he and his top aides said some something that we need to revisit closer to the election. because it certainly lags behind the economic issues. >> so why did they do it? >> the president told advisers, look, with the rise of the election deniers, now who look like they could win in a number of races across the country, we should talk about it again. timing was still up in the air until the attack on speaker pelosi's husband and that made them think we need to do it now in this closing stretch before he hits the road for his last campaign swing. we should denounce what

happened, note to americans that democracy is in danger and warn them what will happen if these election deniers come to power in just a week's team. >> want to bring in white house reporter eugene daniels. eugene, good morning. good to see you. so tell us more about this speech and the timing of it and what the white house wants to have out there. >> reporter: like jonathan said, president biden told aides last month that he wanted to take another crack at this, this team and this topic. it is something that when you talk to folks who helped with the speech, they say that it is a companion piece to the january 6 speech he did at the anniversary and also to the speech this summer about threats to democracy. but that he has been -- he continued to be dismayed over and over and over again that, one, the election deniers have won primaries, that they seem to be in a lot of competitive races around the country up and down the ballot, but then heartened

at the same time that american voters are telling pollsters that threats to democracy is moving up in their list of concerns when they think about the midterm elections. this white house knows that they didn't do the speech to try to move a bunch of people, but someone i talked to said yesterday if you just move 1,000 people to think about this as they are going to vote, that this is good enough for president biden. and i will say, you know, we have to take a moment and realize how unprecedented it is to have the president of the united states go out and tell the american people six days before election day that, you know, the election is important, that democracy is important, and to set expectations that just because you don't get an answer the day of or even the next day, that does not mean there is voter fraud. and it also comes as law enforcement agencies have warned of the possibility of threats of violence. we've already seen what happened

to the speaker's husband. but possible threats of violence after the election even if as we all assume the election will be free and fair and we'll get the results that the american people gave. and i think that is something that this white house is keenly aware of, and also something i promise that president biden is not going to stop talking about because they know the issue is not going anywhere. >> all right. eugene daniels, thank you very much for that update. and we -- >> certainly not going to go anywhere especially considering that some of these election deniers will most likely -- >> they will win. and that is the threat the president was trying to really bring to the voters. new polling of pennsylvania's senate race shows last week's debate between democrat john fetterman and republican mehmet oz appears to have had little impact on the minds of voters. 48% of registered voters tell monmouth university they will definitely or probably vote for fetterman while 44% say that

they will back oz. these numbers fall within the poll's margin of error and are virtually unchanged from a poll taken before last week's debate where fetterman struggled to speak at times following a stroke he had suffered earlier in the year. another new survey from fox news shows fetterman leading 45% to 42%, slim margin falling within the margin of error of 3 percentage points. in the race for pennsylvania governor, fox news polling has the state's democratic attorney general josh shapiro leading by 16 points over the republican doug mastriano. >> that is not bad. let's bring in the attorney general right now. thanks so much for being with us. greatly appreciate it. i'm curious, we've seen across the country election deniers, conspiracy theorists, let's just say it freaks, weirdos, insurrectionists doing all right

in the polling. i'm curious, what is happening in pennsylvania where your opponent has floated out a lot of conspiracy theories but that the voters don't seem to be buying it, why? >> well, look, i think doug mastriano is by far the most dangerous and extreme candidate in the nation. wants to criminalize abortion, charge women with murder who have that life-saving medical procedure. he was part of the violence mob that stormed up to the capitol on january 6. he's made clear that he wants to decertify election machines in the next election so that he can pick the winner, calls climate change fake science. this guy is incredibly extreme. by contrast, i've won statewide twice here. and we've been able to bring republicans, democrats, independents together to support my candidacy so we can work together to cut costs, raise wages, put more cops out on the street, make sure that we invest in public education and protect

our fundamental freedoms, whether it is the right to vote, the right to make decisions over your own body. so there is a clear contrast in this race and i'm optimistic heading into tuesday sflp and . >> and in the past when we start talking about crime, some would say that that is just a racist republican talking point. elise jordan is here, and she'll be asking you a question in a minute. but she had focus groups out of pennsylvania with black voters from philadelphia who say they are afraid to go to work, they are afraid to come home, they afraid that they will get shot, one older gentleman said people just don't respect other people's lives anymore. we shared a poll yesterday from pew that shows that 82% of black democrats think crime is an incredibly important issue. reverend al says when he goes in to churches now that is what people talk to him about, crime, crime, crime.

is crime a problem in philadelphia? i can't believe i have to ask this question. but for some reason, this has become an ideological issue. is crime an issue in philadelphia, is crime an issue in pennsylvania as it is in other states red and blue? and if so, what can you do as u.s. senator to talk to for instance at elderly black gentleman who is afraid to drive to work in the morning because he thinks that he will get killed. >> and one correction, i'm not running for senate, i'm running for governor. >> so you can actually do something. >> it is early. give him another cup of coffee. >> listen, that won't help. but so as governor you actually can do something. as governor, what can you do in. >> let me give you a serious answer. first of all, i would begin the conversation saying that folks have a right to both be safe in their community and feel safe in their community. that means that we need to have

more policing in our communities. but those police need to be properly trained, they need to be from the community that they are sworn to protect. they need to look like their neighbors. they need to have enough bodies to be able to get out of their patrol car, walk the beat, talk to the folks in the neighborhood and the grandma sitting up on their porches. so when i'm governor, we'll hire 2,000 more police officers here in pennsylvania. and let me tell you, i have been saying this for years that we need to make these kinds of investments in public safety. i said it at mount carmel baptist church in west philly just last weekend. i've said it at rotaries and vfws, i'll say is it wherever i go. people have the right to be safe and feel safe. as attorney general, i've arrested 8200 drug dealers, over 500 gun traffickers, more than 500 child predators.and over 100 corrupt politicianses from both

parties. people have a right to be safe, to get honest services from their government and i will not back down on this issue and this will be a core fundamental investment we make in my first budget as governor. >> mr. attorney general, your opponent has been very outspoken and extreme in his abortion platform. he said that he would punish women who violated the abortion restrictions. he said that he would immediately ban all an abortions, period, in the state of pennsylvania if elected. how -- have you gained a political frankly from his extremism on abortion? >> the day i launched this campaign in october of 2021, i talked about being a pro-choice governor. and you know, candidly, it was more of a theoretical conversation at the time. after dobbs, this is a reality check here in pennsylvania, we have a republican led

legislature that keeps puts bans on the governor's desk 20 ban abortions. and my opponent wants to ban all abortion with no exceptions. not for rape or invest or even to safe the life of the woman. and we talked just -- he talked a couple weeks ago about charging women with murder who have that life-saving medical procedure. i've been clear and consistent on this throughout my entire career and campaign. if that bill reaches my desk, i will veto it and let women make the decisions, period. this is a central issue, our rights and freedoms are on the line. the right to govern your own body, the right to vote for who you want and have it count. the right to be able to join a union, all of these rights and freedoms are on the line and we are the coalition that is standing up for those fundamental freedoms and rights. >> and appreciate your answer around the question of crime, every community deserves to be

safe and feel safe and we know that safety question involves more than just simply locking up criminals but the material conditions that create crime. the conditions for crime in certain communities. but i want to shift the question to this, we just had a conversation about kyrie irving and anti-semitism. you've had to face anti-semitism in your campaign with your opponent. talk to us about how you've addressed that directly and what it means that a candidate for the governor, governor seat in pennsylvania, has traded in such hateful language. >> yeah, well, look, you know, the real issue is not how mastriano's anti-semitism makes me feel. the real issue here is that every time he spews this anti-semitism or racism or other kinds of bigotry, or engages with white supremacists as he routinely does including just last night, it is not about how it makes me feel. it is the fact that it makes

every pennsylvanian less safe. you see, if you don't think like doug mastriano or look like him or marry like him or worship like him then you don't count. i want to be governor of all people no matter who you pray to or what you look like. and i think that we need to understand that hate speech begets hate crimes. and leaders have a responsible to speak and act with moral clarity. i try to do that every day. obviously doug matriano doesn't. he is exhibit "a" of the kind of dangerous extremist language that makes everyone less safe here in pennsylvania. >> attorney general shapiro, obviously polls suggest that economic issues are top of mind for most voters. pennsylvania i'm sure is like that as well. give us -- i'm sure in your campaign trail each and every day you are talking to voters who are hurting, finding themselves having trouble making

ends meet, trouble finding -- buying the groceries that a year or two aing a gee they would have easily afforded. what is your message to those pennsylvanians who you may soon be their governor about whether or not things will get better and when? >> i've been speaking about this throughout the campaign and i think that we all understand the governor of pennsylvania, state lawmaker, they didn't create inflation. right? there are broad international geopolitical reasons for a it. but we have a responsibility to try to address it here. that is why i put tort a multipart plan. first, we have to cut business taxes. let small businesses keep more of their money, invest more in their workforce. second, we have to get rid of the nuisance taxes that drive pennsylvanians crazy. we pay 11% tax on our cellphone bills. i'll cancel that when i'm governor. we have to help seniors be able to stay in their homes and afford the household goods that are costing more. so i want to double what is known as our rent rebate and

double the number of seniors who qualify. and for everyone who is facing the pain at the pump, i want to give everybody an immediate $250 gas tax rebate for each car that they own or lease or drive. put money back in pennsylvanians' pockets right now when they need it most. our plan is fully paid for and i've talked about that all across the towns. >> all right. josh shapiro, thank you for being on. you've answered -- >> thanks, gang, great to be with you. >> you've asked a lot of questions specifically what democrats should do when they run in 2022, willie, talking about small business tax, right? talking about his focus on helping of seniors to get them through inflation, gas tax rebate, and talks about putting money back in the pockets of pennsylvanians. that is not a bad message. and also going against an anti democratic opponent. >> it is what we were saying a few minutes ago.

there are candidates out there who are walking this tighter rope very well. and josh shapiro is perhaps chief among them along with tim ryan and wes moore, who if elected would change the way our system works, would not respect the outcome of elections. in the case of doug mastriano, someone who was at the capitol on january 6, he was there, not inside, but he was at the capitol and josh shapiro saying yes, that is important, but all that stuff you laid out we know that is most important in your life. >> and dr. dave interviewed wes moore. your buddy is up by about 75 points right now i think. we'll be playing that. >> he is incredibly impressive. he'd be the first to tell you he is running against a candidate who is way, way out there in the same way doug mastriano is. but wes talks about democracy but more like the stuff you just laid out. >> and attorney general shapiro is noted as probably the most successful battleground campaign

candidate anyone has run this year, so many of these whether for senate or governor in these tightly contested states, you look at the fors, they are all in tight races except shapiro. he benefits from his opponent to be sure, but also a testament to the kind of campaign that he is running. although we did just let him off the hook asking about the phillies. >> here we go. missed opportunity. still ahead -- >> i think that we're still all shake. sorry to interrupt, but i'm still shaken by the fact that mike barnicle praised the phillies organization -- astros organization that actually they all -- >> culture. culture of change. >> so guys leaning into pitches to get hit instead of swinging the bat. it is a rotten culture. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," new polls out of the critical state of arizona show the two biggest races in the state

tightening. both now within the margin of error. >> yeah, i like the fact that willie still has not gotten past them stealing signal against the yankees. >> exactly. >> that as former president barack obama took the stage in phoenix, we'll play what he had to stay about that state's candidates for senate and governor. rnor this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. free monsters, free bosses, any footlong for free! this guy loves a great offer. so let's see some hustle!

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arizona's top race is tightening and the race for the senate new numbers show democratic incumbent mark kelly and his republican opponent blake masters now tied. and in the race for governor, kari lake leads democrat katie hobbs by just two points, that is within the margin of error. >> we heard that thing was over.

i saw polls five, six, seven points. kind of like the wisconsin senate race. you never know what will happen. but again, i think that it is a lot like 2014, but i've never seen a year where everything seems to be tightening up. mark kelly we thought that would tighten up because he has to make every race tight. but kari lake, most within the margin of error when a week ago it was plus five, plus six. >> arizona race shows no one party has a monopoly on momentum. hobbs has tighterened it on lake where there was a discussion that lake was already measuring the drapes in the statehouse. >> is hobbs still campaigning about. >> she appeared with president obama last night. she was there, she spoke briefly. you of course was the headliner. but mark kelly, that is a race in arizona where democrats have

started to get never us in the last week or so, that they feel like he is still a strong candidate, but you're right, he had a significant lead that has now withered away. he is out there campaigning. no one is pointing fingers at him. but it is a tightening across the board. and we've seen democrats pick up some points in the gubernatorial race, republicans in the senate race. and that will be one of the tighter states and most important states going into tuesday. >> and you know,willie, a mystery of the campaign that you have -- well, a couple things. first of all, that democrats said that there are all these candidates who are great risk to democracy and they poured millions and millions of dollars cynically into their primary campaigns. americans, thank you for that, way to go, way to make a dangerous situation even worse, democrats. but then katie hobbs, many people believe she may be

running against the most dangerous demagog in america. and if you believe that, i don't know, i don't want to debate her. you don't want to debate her. people that cared about democracy don't want to debate her. but katie hobbs has been hiding. voters don't vote for governors that hide. that are afraid to even go to debate. it is maddening. >> we have to confront the lie and the argument from the hobbs campaign was i'm not going to give her that platform. she has the platform. if you are not there, she will have it to yourself and lies go unchecked. what are you seeing out in arizona that might tell us more about how some of these candidate, very extreme in the case of kari lake and blake masters, who are just hanging in there to say the least and kari lake's case she's been leading lately for most of the race. >> yeah, look, i think that we are seeing the fact that lot of these races are just tied across the board, it shows you how divided our country is and how

divided the electorate is. but when it comes to arizona, i am intrigued by these mark kelly numbers because he has been consistently ahead for pretty of the entire race. it is tightening up, but i'm also heartened to see that kari lake, that race is becoming tighter too. in some of these states, you can understand arizona or maybe like a lake/kelly voter because of some of the reasons with hobbs, but in pennsylvania, i can't imagine -- i'm sure they exist, but who is a fetterman/shapiro voter? there are going to be split ticket voters, but hard to imagine that you would see that in pennsylvania but you would also maybe would see it in arizona. but look, let's remember, arizona is a very close state. we narrowly won it, we as in joe biden. we didn't know until a couple days after. and i think wong of the smart i think things that job said last joe biden said last night, he reminded the american people that we may not know on election

night. some of these states don't count early votes or absentee ballots until the next day. and so he urged americans to take a step back and let the results come out. i think that that is very important. because some of these races are going to be extremely tight. >> coming up, president biden's chief of staff ron klain joins the conversation. now just five days from the midterm elections. we'll go live to the white house straight ahead.

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barack obama in phoenix, arizona last night campaigning with senator kelly and gubernatorial candidate katie

hobbs. his 55 minute speech was filled with jabs -- >> you know why it was 55 minutes? because somebody in this campaign has to speak. >> somebody has to speak out. he spoke about republicans like kari lake and others who push donald trump's election lies. take a look. >> here in arizona, there is no question that katie hobbs oig opponent is get in front of the camera because she's been doing it for a long time, right? some people don't know this, but apparently kari lake actually interviewed me back in 2016 when i was president. she was a local news anchor, doing her job. at the time i don't remember thinking that she was the kind of person who would push debunked covid remedies or promise to issue a declaration of invasion at our border, or claim without any evidence that the 2020 election was stolen. i guess that stuff came later because she found it convenient.

because she thought, well, here is an opportunity to get attention. listen, if we hadn't just elected somebody whose main qualification was being on tv, you could see maybe giving it a shot. what's the worst that could happen? now we know. it doesn't just work out just because somebody has been on tv. the other day your own current attorney general who is a republican called the election fraud claims made by katie hobbs' opponent horse crap. i'm paraphrasing. he didn't exactly say it that way. he said her own act about how the election was stolen is a giant grift. why would you or course for somebody who you know is not telling the truth about something? i mean, on something that important. i don't care how nicely they say

it, i don't care how poised they are. or how well lit they are. i mean, you have people from her own party saying that is just not true. and yet it seems as if it doesn't matter anymore. what happens when truth doesn't matter anymore? >> i think that we need that lighting on us. >> i'd like that. >> it is like some movie like the way we were. >> a little cheese cloth. >> yeah, it would help us all out. >> gives you a glow. >> i want that lighting. >> i'm jealous. >> first of all, that is a man enjoying himself on the campaign trail. the former president. >> he is good at it. >> it is extraordinary that he has to say the things that he's saying, that president biden had to say the things he said last night, which is that there are

people out there lying to you and that this really is about democracy and you have to put people in office who are not going to disrespect the results of an election, we won't work to stage a coup against the united states government. but that will fall on deaf ears of a lot of people in the state of arizona, but the hope is that president obama can speak to enough still on the fence to say this is too important to stay home. >> clear, passionate, and coherent argument in so many ways. what i was thinking is that lot of folk who are supporting blake masters or kari lake, the motivation is barack obama. you see the deploy the of barack obama and even donald trump, you know, to try to bring the case home in these last days, but these two people are actually at the heart in interesting sorts of ways of the polarization of the country. so that was really great to see. but we know that his election in 2008, his re-election in some ways was one of the motivating factors for some of the chaos

we're experiencing. >> for some of the days on. but here is what i think when i'm up there. when i see him up there. i'm thinking there are a lot of people who voted for this guy for good reason including kari lake. and -- >> he could have thanked her. >> and then they voted for donald trump. so i know race explains a lot of stuff on the right. doesn't explain a lot of stuff in the middle. like barack obama was the first president to get elected with a majority vote two times since, gosh, eisenhower. right? so that is what i'm trying to grapple with. okay, that guy you see him up there, he is fantastic. i'm wondering do they see past all the craziness and lies and i look at that by and go yeah, that is the guy i voted for in 2008 in clinton county, iowa.

>> you know, i think that is a really important point. but for some reason, even as passionate and convincing as president obama was last night, it felt as if that was ages ago. >> oh, it was ages ago. a lifetime ago go. >> it passed, the reasoned discussion, the appeal that he represents. it seems like the moment, i don't know how it works. but i understand that middle that you are talking about. >> so this is what i think some of us don't understand enough, that i forget all the time despite having evidence of it high entire adult life. the same people that voted for ronald reagan twice voted for bill clinton twice, same people that voted for bill clinton twice voted for george w. bush twice. the same independents that voted for george w. bush twice voted

for barack obama twice and donald trump once. this is your life as far as -- you are -- your life is to understand these voters andwhat is it that -- i'm not being facetious here. there are people out there, and people who don't watch shows every day about politics and policy, what is it about those voters that will vote for barack obama twice and then go then i'm going for this trump guy. >> and don't forget the bernie sanders voters in the primary in 2016 who then voted for donald trump. i think that it has to do with voters voting for the outsider, somebody who they consider to be running against washington, who is going to washington to fix things. and i'm not going to give donald trump a lot of compliments for anything, but one thing that he has done somewhat well, he has still positioned himself as an outsider to washington even though he is not. so i think that that is kind of where some of those decisions come from. but you know, we look at

somebody like barack obama, he is going out there to make the closing argument and motivate democrats. i don't think that he is necessarily that he will change any minds at this point. but he wants to make sure that every single democrat and every single independent who sbebtss to vote for a democrat votes. and coming up -- >> he refuses to protect us. he refuses to defend us and yet he defended herschel walker. >> the abortion decision should be left up to states and specifically when john fetterman -- >> you roll with doug mastriano. >> you'll have your turn, john. >> that is stacey abrams and john fetterman attacking republican candidates. but not the ones who are actually runs against them, nuns looking to lump their own opponents with the less popular contenders on the ballot. will it encourage voters too split the ticket? we'll talk about that strategy just ahead. we'll talk about that strategy just ahead split the ticket? we'll talk about that strategy just ahead. ticket we'll talk about that strategy

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it is five days now until the midterm election. can you believe it? where control of the house and senate as well as president biden's agenda all hang in the balance. and another story line we're watching, the potential for history to be made in the races for governor. will we see a record number of women elected to run statehouses? nine women currently serve as governors and 25 women are major party nominees in gubernatorial races. that is a record number for both democrats and republicans. there are also several states that could have a female governor and a female lieutenant governor serving as a team. hello. that would be history. joining us thousand, editor of forbes women, maggie mcgrath.

great to have you on. so let's talk about potentially history in the making here. what has taken so long i say. >> what has taken so long. i just want to emphasize that statistic. since 1925, nearly 100 years ago, just 45 women have served as governor. 41 men serve as governor right now. the brookings institute has been studying political ambition and what is fascinating, they surveyed 4,000 potential candidates, lawyer, political activists, and there is a 16 point gap consistently since 2001 between men and women saying whether or not they will run. what is at play here? there are a few things. at play a few things. women report not liking the political campaigning process. it's time intensive, privacy invasions, a new report about women receiving more threats as politicians. so you have all of that. and then you have women who say

i just don't see myself as a politician, as a leader. >> so that's changing, hopefully, the ambition factor is changing. i do understand the threats and the personal interference. i mean, you look at michigan governor gretchen whitmer and what she's gone through, but we want to see women serving. it makes a difference. if but get these numbers up and make history, what could be the potential effects? >> i'm optimistic about the fly wheel we could see. i hear all the time from entrepreneurs and corporate leaders about how if you can't see it, you can't be it. there are untold numbers of women who could be watching these races. you see someone who sounds and looks like them, they could run for themselves. over the course of history, some 16 presidents have been governor, so this could fuel the presidential fly wheel. >> see it, be it, just like hoda and our "50 over 50" list. say it out loud. >> say it out loud. >> and do it. what races stand out given this and why?

>> no state in u.s. history has had a woman running at governor and lieutenant governor concurrently. that could change this year in arkansas, massachusetts, ohio, and oklahoma. so we would see two women at the top. we also are watching the race in oklahoma where joy changed her political affiliation to run against the incumbent governor. she's the school superintendent, so education is a huge, huge issue there. and also very anti-abortion laws are motivating women voters. >> and getting them to the polls, we hope. before we close, our "50 over 50," our u.s. list, working on that. it's out. working on next year's. but we still have the global list. we have asia, europe, middle east, and africa. nominations are now open. >> they're open today. please go to forbes.com and nominate the fabulous women over 50 who youed a hire, you look up to, served as mentors who have

lived in the u.s., europe, asia. they're global citizens so they spend the majority of their time in these regions but we're looking for major accomplishments at 50, 60, 70, and beyond across all sectors of work. >> women from these lists end up at our big summit in abu dhabi. march 7th through march 10th during international women's day. we'll joined by the world's most powerful women. we have a number booked including many of our list makers. head to forbes.com or knowyourvalue.com. maggie, thank you very much. we'll see you soon on "morning joe." still ahead on "morning joe," we have much more on president biden's closing message to americans. we'll speak with white house chief of staff ron klain. plus, weekly jobless claims just came out moments ago. new claims were lower than

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we are learning disturbing new information about the attacker who broke into the pelosi home. david depape telling police he was on a suicide mission as his former partner says he showed signs of mental illness in the past. nbc's my guilty almaguer has the latest. >> reporter: according to court documents, david depape telling officers, "i'm sick of the insane level of lies coming out of washington, d.c. i came here to have a little chat with his wife." but this morning, depape's

ex-partner and the mother of his children says the suspect used to have progressive ideas. >> we were very progressive in our views and we never disagreed about it. >> reporter: oxane taub is in prison for stalking and attempting to abduct a 14-year-old boy. it's been at least seven years since she last spoke with the suspect, but she says he showed signs of mental health issues when they were together. >> when you say he had mental problems, can you give me some examples? >> when he was away from us for a year and a half, he came back and for a while he was paranoid, he thought people were following him. he thought that, you know, he was jesus. >> reporter: 42-year-old depape has pleaded not guilty to multiple felony charges including attempted murder, his attorney hinting his mental state could be a possible defense. as nancy pelosi's 82-year-old husband remains in the hospital, authorities are now looking into how the intruder was able to get past security cameras and break

into their home. the complaint says a private security guard working near pelosi home on the night of the attack saw a man dressed in black carrying a large bag. after hearing banging, that security guard never called police. nbc news has confirmed capitol police in washington, d.c., had the ability to monitor pelosi's san francisco home 24 hours a day, but during the attack, no one was watching the security camera feed because the speaker of the house wasn't home. still, the violent home invasion raising new questions about security for elected officials and their loved ones. >> nbc's miguel almaguer with that report. it is the top of the hour. white house chief of staff ron klain join us in just a moment on the heels of president biden's speech last night. and with just five days left