♪♪ hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york as president joe biden now puts it, quote, you cannot love your country only when you win. that fundamental basic principle of living in a democracy, accepting the will of the people has seemingly been lost on large swaths of the republican party at this moment and heading into these pivotal midterm elections. in a speech just steps away from the united states capitol, the president tackled the crisis of our democracy head on blaming it all on one man, the disgraced ex-president himself whose lies about the last election are in large part defining this election. >> you know, american democracy is under attack because the defeated former president of the

united states refused to accept the results of the 2020 election. he refuses to accept the will of the people. he refuses to accept the fact that he lost. he has abused his power and put the loyalty to himself before loyalty to the constitution. a typical year, we're often not faced with questions of whether the vote we cast will preserve democracy or put us at risk. but this year, we are. >> and the last standard bearer of the democratic party, president barack obama campaigning in arizona, the state that perhaps any other battleground state has been roiled by the big lay with election deniers on the republican side picked up on the same themes, laying out for his audience, the stakes in this election this way. >> i lost my first congressional race in the primary by 30

points. i got whooped. i was frustrated. that didn't feel good. you know what i didn't do? i didn't claim the election was rigged. i didn't spin conspiracy theories. i didn't instigate a mob to go up on and storm the capitol. you know what i did is i got over it. and then i tried to do better the next time. if you've got election deniers serving as your governor, as your senator, as your secretary of state, as your attorney general, then democracy as we know it may not survive in arizona. that's not an exaggeration. that is a fact. >> indeed, it is. last night, both president obama and president biden drew a straight line connecting all the dots from the efforts to overturn the 2020 election right through the deadly january 6th

insurrection to these 2022 midterms. image election deniers aren't just running for office, they are also actively laying the groundwork to undermine the results if they lose before any of the ballots have been counted. there is extraordinary new reporting on this in the "new york times" today. this reporting pulls back the curtain on what that effort looks like, and it could very well be the next phase of disrupting the peaceful transfer of power in america. the "times" reports there, three dozen lawyers and firms are now working for republican candidates, parties and groups, filing lawsuits and other complaints that could lay the groundwork for challenging the results of midterm elections. that's according to a "new york times" analysis of campaign finance records and legal filings. on that list, mitchell and john eastman. two lawyers that helped devise trump's legal strategy in 2020 and are mobilizing activists to hunt for evidence of fraud in

the midterm count. this new reporting suggests that two of the most significant figures in the trump coup plot, one of them the architect of the plan to prevent joe biden's win from being certified on january 6th, who pleaded the 5th and multiple probes about the 2020 election are at it all over again. abc news has obtained recordings from an effort by clida mitchell to recruit poll workers, an effort that has the financial support of the ex-president himself. from that new reporting, the recordings reveal some of the strategies being pursued by so called election integrity groups on a national and local level healed of election day. my seoul focus for the last year and a half is how we as conservatives could build infrastructure to do hand-to-hand combat at the left starting at the local level, mitchell said on the september 1st call and a recording of it, we have a big challenge with the elections coming up, mitchell

told the group but if we can keep them from stealing it, i think we have a good chance to win. flashing red warnings signs about the state of our democracy ahead of these midterm elections is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends, "new york times" correspondent nick, his byline is on that reporting we read from. joining us mary mccord, former acting assistant attorney general for national security at doj. rick stengle is back, now an msnbc political analyst, and associate editor and columnist for real clear politics. we should remind viewers who mitchell is, this is her subpoena from the january 6th select committee. it says between early november 2020, and january 6th, 2021, and thereafter, you actively promoted claims of election fraud on behalf of former president trump and sought to convince state and federal officials to take steps to overturn the results. in particular, you participated in efforts to prevent delay or

overturn the certification of the popular vote results in several states. you permitted false claims of election fraud to members of congress and participated in a call in which trump pressured the secretary of state to find enough votes to reverse his loss there. that's who has partnered with john, architect of the coup plot, eastman, and they're doing what, exactly? >> what cleta and john eastman are doing are filing lawsuits in court right now. they have been, and as we reported previously, ms. mitchell referred to it as building a detective agency of poll watchers, they're going around the country, holding meetings with grass roots activists in michigan, in pennsylvania, in arizona and trying to train these poll watchers to look for fraud. and document everything as john

eastman told a group in new mexico in audio we had obtained that was first reported by "politico," document everything, including even if a judge doesn't take your challenge, write that down because what they're trying to do is build an avalanche of evidence, quote unquote evidence, i should say, this isn't evidence of wrong doing. often there's nothing wrong happening. but what they want is they want a bunch of evidence that they can go and give to some of these lawyers who are currently working or who have already filed litigation to get something in the pipeline to try and challenge results. that can be a challenging balance. that can be challenging processes. that can be trying to claim that the behavior of a certain election official was so egregious that, you know, the election was there for a completely fraudulent and some drastic measures would need to be taken. what you're seeing from cleta mitchell and john eastman is an effort to bolster what is already a growing legal effort on the side of republican lawyers. >> nick, what's so interesting

about your reporting is, i mean, i'll use the word from ambassador bill taylor, is through irregular channels. election fraud is illegal, and we have a criminal justice to deal with the crimes of election fraud. have cleta mitchell or john eastman found election fraud? >> there has never been a case that found widespread election fraud. there is no widespread election fraud in the united states. it's extremely isolated and rare when it does happen. you can look at the efforts in texas where attorney general paxton poured millions of dollars into an investigative fund and was able to come up with less than a dozen cases. in florida, there was a big effort to hunt for election fraud, and, again, that was well below 100 when, you know, elections are decided by tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of votes. there's never been a case, nor is anyone currently claiming there's such widespread election fraud that we need armies of poll watchers hunting for it. there's never been a case where

it's come close to determining the outcome of a statewide or federal presidential election. >> and when they manufacture quote unquote evidence, have they ever convinced a judge to vote in their favor? have they ever won anything in court on this issue? >> recently, no. and that's, i think, an important point when we look at the return of a lot of these lawyers and law firms who are active, again, who were active in the 2020 election. if you look post 2020 election, the trump campaign lost more than 60 of the lawsuits that it brought, trump campaign and its allies. there was only one, and it was a very small, kind of insignificant to any number of ballots lawsuit, and it was in pennsylvania, following the 2020 election. so when we look now to be more than, you know, 100 lawsuits that have been filed by both democrats and republicans, there isn't necessarily a track record of success here in challenging election results in court. it was trump appointed judges and obama appointed judges, democrat and republican who universally rejected a lot of

legal efforts in 2020. so the judiciary held. but as it goes forward, and new claims are brought and new lawyers join the fold or bigger firms, you know, there's concerns from some democratic experts who i have spoken to who are like it held once. the more you test it, the more a small part could break, and that could start a flood. >> in 2000, james baker and former president jimmy carter looked at the same issue of voter fraud and didn't find any either. fast forward to 2020, when there's voter fraud, it's a crime, and it's prosecuted. what is this? >> this is really an effort to manufacture evidence in order to bring massive numbers of lawsuits challenging the results of the election that hasn't even taken place yet but for which they're trying to seed in advance some justification for lawsuits to tie up the results, delay the results, give time for partisans and former president

trump, and those who may lose their elections, although i think many will win their elections. >> unfortunately, yeah. >> may lose their elections to litigate and it also -- that, then, creates an environment during the litigation for those who are also election deniers, those who are supporting the candidates, to take matters into their own hands. we saw that in 2020. we saw that, you know, there was a litigation track, but then there was threats, harassment, intimidation, and political violence track, and, you know, the same disinformation that fueled the attack on january 6th is the same disinformation fueling this effort, is the same disinformation that has the potential to fuel additional violence, and if i may, at another point, listening to cleta mitchell, this is a lawyer, lawyers have a code of professional responsibility. they are held to standards that

when they bring cases in a court of law, they must be based on facts. they must not be frivolous. she does have complaints filed against her, bar complaints. there have been other lawyers who filed baseless lawsuits who have been sanctioned by courts and of course rudy giuliani has been disbarred. i mean, it is a disgrace to lawyers and i am a lawyer to see this type of concerted effort. this is not conservatives as cleta mitchell said, this is conspirators, and it's, you know, it's a threat to democracy. it's also just, you know, to see lawyers doing this is the very worst i can imagine for lawyers to be participating in. >> and i think we've talked about, i mean, our politics are broken so you can't rely on them to be thrown out. right? these are who republicans picked in the primary contest, so the reason they're in the generals is they won contests. can the profession do more to sanction them? >> so, you know, with respect to

lawyers, there certainly are, you know, a lawyer if you're going to practice law, you have to be a member of a bar in at least one state, and those bars have their own committees of ungrievances and professional responsibility, and they can be disbarred for cause and bringing baseless lawsuits is a reason for inquiry. there are judges in the cases they bring who can hold them in contempt, ask them to show cause why they shouldn't be held in contempt for bringing frich -- frivolous lawsuits. for the candidates, though, the people who are running, who it's not dependent on, you know, keeping their bar membership, we usually look to elections as the means of taking care of this. the problem is if we can't trust our elections and i'm not saying we can't. our elections are secure. >> right. >> there's no measurable fraud in this country, and there hasn't been for, you know, decades and decades. but if people don't believe

they're secure, if people are feeling intimidated from going to the polls, because, remember, as this is going on, this poll worker recruitment is not just about, you know, ginning up, you know, baseless claims on which they can bring a lawsuit. it's also to intimidate people, to make people think they are being watched, they're doing something. >> they are being watched, they're being filmed. by everybody. >> and they're doing something wrong, and there will be a legal consequence to that, right, so all of this is an effort to suppress the vote in the hope that they'll have a better showing, and if they don't, to have this false narrative, this false set of facts that can be used to litigate. >> and the delay is being used in the way you described it, the way trump envisioned it, in the delay, the violence is the tool for not certifying joe biden's win. if it's tied to a threat to our homeland security, should there be a more aggressive effort to call out, sort of name and shame the law firms doing the legal work that has a direct line to

destabilize it? >> well, you know, i do think that more pressure on the lawyers is warranted. i mean, there have been some sort of, you know, some of the worst of the worst, cleta mitchell, john eastman, rudy giuliani, they're in the news every day, but there's a whole army out there as "the new york times" reporting indicated and a lot of these are kind of flying under the radar, and you know, now, i'm sure there's a line, right, there's the most extreme cases, and there's others that have a factual basis, and you know, i'm not suggesting that all lawyers are evil. i am one, but, you know, there's a standard, and we live by that standard, and it's important for the rule of law, it's important for our justice system and for, you know, the way we resolve disputes through litigation is, you know, we do it through litigation, not through violence, litigation based on facts, and we can have reasonable disagreements about the law. we can have reasonable disagreements about what the facts show, we don't make up

facts. that should be called out. >> that sort of postfact america is where candidates are having to wage their campaigns. i want to show you something that my colleague alicia menendez sent in to us. she's out in arizona where president biden was last night as well. and she spoke to mark kelly. let me play this for you. >> reporter: i just want to circle back to the question of democracy, which can seem really asteric and big, and it feels really real that we're teetering. >> yes, and i think we -- things could have been a lot worse in 2020. they were bad. could have gotten worse. i worry about this election in 2022. i worry here in arizona, possibly being the ground zero of a really challenging period in our country's history with regards to democracy. and it's not only my race, it's the governor's race, the secretary of state, the attorney general, those races are

critical. every candidate on the other side, i think it's very fair to say, question the 2020 election because their guy didn't win, and will say things to try to convince people that the election is stolen. >> let me show you one more piece of sound, this is president obama on the same topic. specifically, i think, calling out, putting it nicely, arizona secretary of state candidate mark fincham. >> the opponent was at the capitol on january 6th. he was actually there. i mean, he night have been the guy with the viking helmet, but he was there. has ties to far right anti-government militia. come on, people. said it was perfectly fine for people to stand by ballot drop boxes carrying weapons.

suggested he might use his power to reject democratic votes in the future. is that really -- again, i understand i'm preaching to the choir in this auditorium. i want arizonians, who are just regular folks, republicans, ask yourself, that's the guy you want in charge of your elections? somebody who was part of an insurrection and thinks it's okay for armed people to stand, to intimidate folks next to ballot boxes. that's how america's democracy is supposed to work. >> you know, he makes the guy in the viking hat sound like a total loser and fool while also delivering an incredibly powerful message to sort of wake up republicans. you want this, you want this? what do you think? >> well, arizona, nicole, is the place where there is the most

likelihood of election deniers winning those critical races. it's actually not as important for senator kelly who's not an election denier to prevail. it's much more threatening that election deniers can prevail for secretary of state, and attorney general and governor in arizona. and it looks like they can. they have a better shot there, not in michigan, not in pennsylvania. it's not going to happen in georgia. this is kind of ground zero for the entrance of people like kari lake and mark fincham. i think it's great that president obama spoke up there, and is trying to speak not only to republicans in arizona, where it has swung purple in recent

years, but to independent voters who show are supportive of senator kelly, and some of these republican election deniers. so arizona really is, i think, the most frightening place where we're going to face this test of whether or not we are people who are elected who are not necessarily going to certify the results of the 2024 election if they don't like the outcome. >> so rick, we have been talking about this since i think the dust didn't settle in 2020. for trump, it's all about 2024. it's all about getting rid of all of the country's brad raffensperger's who would not bend to his will and replacing them all with mr. finchems in every state. it's all about 2024. and president obama connects those dots more artfully in a speech that's devastating and funny and all of those things, but it's maybe the first time that as we watch the midterms we'll be watching not just

control of the house and senate, but we'll be watching who's in control of the states that trump tried to steal last time. what are your thoughts heading into next week? >> yeah, nicolle, if you have one party in a two-party system that decides they're not going to honor the results of an election, you don't have a democracy anymore. that's essentially what's happened. a lot of these lawsuits are about creating smoke before the election so that after the election, they can point to the smoke and say there must be fire, there must be fraud there. that's what's going on. i do think, you know, there are danger signs for our democracy, you know, not observation of norms, normalization of violence, all of these things that are undermining our democracy, but what is scary here, too, and i don't want to kind of preempt this is that we're looking at the midterm elections. as you say, that forecast, 2024,

but we're not going to have a result on the 8th. we're not going to have a result the next day, and all of these lawsuits will start being filed. i mean, we could have weeks and months of uncertainty in many of these races and races like arizona, where these officials are the ones that will be calling 2024. that's the idea of these frivolous lawsuits, and these lawyers as mary suggested should be disbarred. they're violating the codes of conduct with the american bar association, filing fraudulent lawsuits, lawsuits that don't have evidence based on fact. this is just the beginning. if we think we're going to have closure on november 8th or a few days afterwards, we're sadly mistaken. >> and it's just not clear to me that everybody knows that that could be what is ahead for all of us. i need all of you to stick around. i want to read more from nick's reporting. i want to read congressman's reaction to the president's speech. congressman raskin speaking out about the urgent need to warn

people and put it out there about the threat of political violence, how democrats believe that president joe biden had no choice but to address the nation with this message. plus, one of the lawmakers on the front lines of the investigation and the insurrection and a member of the committee tasked with protecting the capitol will join us on this new dangerous new sad normal for american lawmakers. congressman zoe lofgren will be our guest, and later in the show, the one and only iconic, whoopi goldberg will be here. she's here to discuss her extraordinary masterpiece, a movie called "till" about one of the darkest chapters in american history. all of that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. ntinues. don't go anywhere today. ♪ there's heather on the hedges ♪ ♪ and kenny on the koi ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪ ♪ yes -- ♪ wait, what was that? timber...

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anything more dangerous than putting an election denier in charge of an election. it's like putting, you know, a mob boss in charge of the police or an arsonist as the fire chief for the town. i mean, that just doesn't work, so i'm glad that message got through. that's not a partisan message. it goes across the spectrum. if somebody is willing to deny the clear results of an election, they shouldn't be running an election. and, you know, when the president said that, you know, people shouldn't be denying elections when it's clear who's won, i mean, i would be willing to grant, okay, you don't accept the election as it comes down from the administrative authorities. the election officials, but if you've had a challenge in court and the courts have rejected every allegation of electoral fraud and corruption as more than 60 courts did with respect to donald trump's big lie about

the 2020 election, then in a democratic society, you've got to accept that. what else can you do. >> so nick, your reporting answers congressman raskin's question, this is what they do. in michigan, another lawyer with the group told a group of right wing organizers in late october that he was already preparing to challenge the results if the republican candidate for governor in michigan tutor dixon loses narrowly to governor gretchen whitmer, a democrat. are we going to be ready if they rig the election so tutor loses a close race, he said according to an audio recording of the call obtained by "the new york times," and are we going to be ready to bring those cases into court, those facts that would require it to be redone. that's what it's about. if election officials, cast doubt on a close election result, the michigan election has to be redone. i know the answer to these questions, but was there any

election illegality or irregularities that would have changed the outcome in michigan? >> no, there was not. >> so what is this about? >> this is about, i think, creating a facade of irregular irregularties to sow doubt about elections and possibly try and take advantage of a time of uncertainty that i think, you know, was alluded to earlier. we're not going to know the results on election night. in michigan in particular, secretary of state's office has said because they are not allowed to start to process absentee ballot of which there are a ton of absentee ballots, a large majority coming from democratic voters, until just two days before the election, there's going to be a big backlog. on election night, we're not going to necessarily know who's won in a close race in michigan. and what's more than likely is that it will appear republicans are stronger, the balance that

won't have been counted will be democratic mail-in ball lots. that's the moment of uncertainty that i think a lot of people trying to sow doubt about the election are going to seize on. you can take that and lawsuits they have already filed. they claim that they're not getting enough access to poll watchers. it was actually lawyers who filed the same lawsuit in 2020 are back in michigan right now filing that same lawsuit. christina, the candidate for secretary of state who herself said she would not have certified the 2020 election, she's filing new lawsuits about detroit's election systems and the mail-in process there. so it's this kind of chaos theory that the more chaos you create, the more doubt is sows and the more you can rile up your base. in that uncertainty, i think they're trying to take advantage or if nothing else, just try and make a loss not sting. you know, ab nick's reporting is so important in laying out everything they're doing in full view. it also reveals, i think in the

clearest way they're running all the same plays from 2020. bill stepien in the january 6th public hearings, his taped deposition about this red mirage was played for the country as one of the sort of features of what their strategy was and how they plan to ride this red mirage, as nick is explaining, some of the mail vote isn't counted. they don't want it counted. they could count it, but then they wouldn't have their red mirage. it's just that. it's a mirage. it's used to not just sow chaos, but foment and instigate supporters who are primed to doubt the elections because they have been told over and over again that they're rigged and there's fraud. they're not rigged and there is no fraud. but this red mirage is part of the strategy not just to sow chaos but to foment violence. >> right. and i really hope, it is the responsibility of the media on tuesday night and on wednesday,

nicolle to voters on the fox news channel, we know this now, the cycle is old. voters may not want to learn that from 2020 but they need to be informed and reminded that the votes that come in on election day, which are often counted first are more republican and that they will have to wait days. the night of the 2018 elections, it looked like republicans were spared. i mean, i gave a speech the next morning, and i said they dodged a bullet, and days and weeks later, the democrats had picked up 41 seats. this is not like it's never happened before, but it is exactly what nick is describing. the evidence is not the point. the doubt is the point. the point is to keep alive and amplify the big lie and it is not only that they want to sow

all of this doubt and delegitimize any democratic win, but to grift. he has not yet had his law license suspended. in on the grift, it's a way of making the people they whip into mass hysteria, giving money to the election defense funds that don't exist. hundreds of millions of dollars after 2020 to continue to believe that things are being stolen, and any lawsuit is just like asking president zelenskyy to announce an investigation into joe biden or telling the justice department in the interim between november 3 and january 6th. just say, there was some problems and leave it to me and congressional republicans, and we'll figure the rest out. the very filing of the lawsuit is just a pr stunt to make the

believers feel there's something there. and they're going to do it, and then some. and that's what's so scary. that period where people are waiting for the count is where you're going to have trump on truth social saying this was rigged and saying it's an outrage and making everybody -- making the situation so incredibly tense. >> rick, all we have is data. we can't necessarily tie it to the climate, but we do have data, again, from the "new york times" that suggests that election officials say efforts to intimidate voters are widening. election supervisors in several central florida counties reported at a news conference tuesday that early voting totals had slipped compared with the midterm elections in 2018. they cited a coordinated misinformation campaign as sowing distrust and confusion about early voting, one led by election deniers who have told voters to wait until election day to hand in mail ballots.

again, why do they do it? because tragically in some instances, it works. >> yes, the red mirage is effective because people don't understand science or mathematics and they doubt it. and they're trying to make people nervous. but what i want to do, nicolle, is update you on something we talked about before, which is my poll worker training, which i finally had this past week. i'm a poll worker and will observe firsthand in columbia county, which is a republican county. three hours of instruction by republicans and democrats, everything was separated by republicans and democrats, and you would have absolutely no way. i had no idea who was a democrat and who was a republican. it was people trying to do their job in a democracy and count the votes. counting the votes accurately and doing their job is way more important than who wins. that's true all across the country as we have been talking about from the beginning, that

voter fraud is .004 of all the votes cast over the last 20 years. i saw it firsthand and it will happen on election night all across the country, and that's what people have to realize and to have faith in election integrity. not these phonies that we're trying to call election integrity in suspect. >> these are the people you're trying to thep. >> -- help. >> yeah, and another bright spot in addition to that, we did have a federal judge in arizona who issued a court order in joining some of the voter intimidation efforts we have been hearing about. he's prohibiting armed individuals from being within 250 feet of a ballot drop box. he's prohibiting the video taping or photographing of people you know, walking to the box within 75 feet of the box or recording their license plates and putting them on, you know, social media for their names and anything else. this is really important because

it sends a message to so many of those out there, these organizations taking their money, and recruiting people to go out and monitor and surveil ballot drop boxes, surveil voting, become polling workers, it's telling them, that's a line too far. and you better think twice before you engage in activity. he joined it in a civil case. voter intimidation is a crime. it's a good signal. this was a trump appointed judge, i'll say. >> which does help with the deradicalization side of this. >> it's an incredible piece of reporting. thank you so much, rick, thank you for starting us off on this important day. mary mccord sticks around. a development, trump insider and loyalist kash patel will testify before a grand jury, moving the case into serious territory for donald trump.

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major news on a story we have been covering for the last couple of weeks, potentially major new stakes for the ex-president in doj's criminal investigation into his mishandling of sensitive documents. kash patel is set to testify before a federal grand jury about the documents and trump's claims that patel has repeated and backed that he declassified

the records he took with him to mar-a-lago. "the new york times" is reporting that the u.s. justice department offered kash patel immunity after a federal judge ruled that would be the only way to force him to testify under oath. "the new york times" reports this, the decision effectively cleared the way for his testimony and makes moot his fifth amendment and self-incrimination claims, and it now makes patel the steadfast loyal trump confidant who trump hand picked to deal with the documents and the national archives. one of the biggest witnesses with potentially incriminating information, in a criminal probe, inching closer and closer to the ex-president. one of the reporters on the byline, mike schmidt, and msnbc contributor, mary is still with us. tell us what you and your colleagues are reporting? >> well, the question of what was going to happen with kash patel has been out there for a few weeks. the justice department had sort of entered the phase where they were concentrating on these

recalcitrant witnesses, witnesses who had not cooperated, who were not provided, you know, accounts that they thought were accurate. in the case of patel last month, he had taken the fifth amendment before a grand jury about a range of questions that prosecutors wanted to ask him about the documents, about how the documents were handled. patel has been the person who's out there in the aftermath of the raid saying that trump declassified all of these documents. now, if you're the government, you're trying to get to the bottom of everything that occurred here and know, you know, all the facts as possible. you want to talk to him about that because if the documents were declassified, it would legally change several things around, you know, potentially around this issue. they wanted to talk to him about that. he refused to do it. a judge refused to go around with the government's efforts. he has received immunity, he'll

have to go to the grand jury and testify and answer all of prosecutor's questions. what remains to be seen is what type of witness he is. is he someone who barely answers the questions and gives yes or no answers or actually provides lengthy robust responses and witnesses can take different postures. >> i understand patel's importance to doj, and that there's naturally an inherently tense relationship between someone like patel and doj, wouldn't patel have debriefed trump's lawyers. they never allege that anything was declassified in any of the various jurisdictions in which they have filed legal filings. >> well, it depends how, you know, trump's legal team is operating. if they've basically done an investigation themselves to figure out what all of the facts are. so, you know, we don't know if that has happened. what we do know is that no one has substantiated the claim that

trump declassified these. this is something that has been repeated by trump allies. trump himself alluded to it. but there's been no evidence to come out that it actually happened. and trump's lawyers could have in the special master fight, his fight with the justice department about what materials can be kept in the raid, they could have made this assertion, and said, yes, these documents were classified, and here are the receipts, or here's how it went down. that has not happened. so the claim has remained unsubstantiated, and the question is that why was patel saying that? was this simply trump lying. was it part of an effort to throw sand in the gears of the investigation? we don't know, but if you're the prosecutors, you want to talk to patel. >> patel was on a podcast, mary, we played it on the show yesterday saying, you know, i'm one with the boss forever. does doj care if you get immunity? are you expected to act a certain way or is it just really

limited to what you're going to get from a witness in front of the grand jury? >> so, you know, the department of justice relies on cooperators in many many cases, criminal cases, and it does offer use immunity, sometimes even to people who they, you know, believe have committed crimes because that person, if they're important enough and can provide the evidence that the government thinks is even more important to go after a bigger fish. >> like mob prosecutions. all of your witnesses are criminals. >> exactly, so they're used to dealing with some characters who aren't always that credible and who are criminals, frankly. and so here i think what they're thinking about is he is so central to this, he's been so close to trump on this issue, he's been out there spreading this, you know, story about declassification, and so they want to talk to them and get the real deal. i want to make sure people understand what use immunity is. that doesn't mean kash patel

can't be prosecuted to the handling of information, or the obstruction of justice. it means the prosecution can't use what he says in the grand jury or anything derived directly from that. so if there were other evidence of his criminal culpability, it doesn't mean -- >> exactly. if he were to go to the grand jury and stick with the story about declassification, and later it can be proven otherwise, he could still be, you know, charged with perjury for that. so there's limitations on what it does. but i think the department here has just made this assessment that, you know, they need to hear what he has to say and by giving him that immunity. they probably are putting pressure on him. he probably feels the heat of potential criminal charges if he's part of this, and so, you know, i think they just made that assessment that it was worth it here. one of the things that doesn't get talked about much with

respect to kash patel, you know, he used to be in the national security division. he worked for me when i was the acting assistant attorney general, he was a counter terrorism prosecutor. >> was he normal? >> there were some issues. but he, you know, i had no reason to question his sort of, you know, loyalty to the rule of law and to following the facts and law where they lead. like, i did not think he was somebody who would make things up, but he also well knows what declassification is. and though he's right that the president does have authority to declassify, presidents don't do that with a wave of their hand. >> or mind wave. >> you would have to make a decision document by document, material by material, that it is no longer, you know, a danger to national security if it were to be revealed, and that clearly did not happen. >> and then tell somebody. >> and tell somebody. >> none of that seems to have happened. >> mike schmidt thank you for

the reporting and for joining us to talk about it. mary's here a little bit longer. after five weeks of testimony and evidence of a violent, bloody desire to overthrow the u.s. government, the justice department has rested its case against members of the oath keepers right wing militia group. what kind of defense could stewart rhodes and his allies mount. we'll get a check in on that trial next. mount. we'll get a check in on that trial next ♪♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools

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witnesses, the united states government rested its case against today in washington, d.c. against the five members of the far right militia group oath keepers in their conspiracy trial. the defense began the case today hearing opening statements from the two defendants's lawyers and we expect the defense to call stewart rhodes to the stand ago well. that is likely to happen next week. the government has aedge willed that five defendants plotted to stop the electoral college count on january 6 and rested its case without calling on three cooperating defendants who already pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy. which our next guest said is an indication that prosecutors believe they have presented enough evidence already for jurors to convict. joining us from outside of the courthouse, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst glenn kirshner. i think you were the first person to tell us how it that's started and so it is fitting that you're back today to tell

us how the government rested its case. >> they rested their case in the strongest possible way. the last words that the jury heard about the announcement of the government rests were these words from the mouth of lead defendant elmer stewart rhodes that were captured on a covert reporting and his words were, we should have brought rifles. we could have fixed it right then and there. i'd hang f'ing pelosi from the lamp post and with those words, from the defendant, the government rested its cases. and you could have heard a pin drop, nicolle. it was a very powerful way for the prosecutors to end their presentation. >> again, what it to be gleaned from people like yourself in the know with the decision not to present additional witnesses? >> so, you know, we never want to overtry our case as

prosecutors. and these prosecutors had about a half a dozen cooperating witnesses to choose from. at some point it is diminishing returns. cooperating witnesses can begin to contradict one another and let me quote you one thing that was said by one of the cooperating witnesses, a gentleman named graden young. one of the oath keepers said about what they were doing on january 6. we had to make contact with and disrupt congress where they were meeting. and they did that and he actually said in hindsight, upon reflection, sitting in that courtroom, the other day he said, now i feel like i'm a traitor to my country. when you have that kind of testimony, from some of the folks who were inside of the oath keeper organization, you don't necessarily need to parade cooperating witness after cooperating witness before the jury. and i think their decision not to call three of the cooperating witnesses is an indication that

the prosecutors believe that they proved their case. >> it is extraordinary that we're living through a time when glenn is sitting inside while a seditious conspiracy trial is going on and they were all there at the invitation of donald trump to disrupt the government. how do you assess the case that the government put forth? >> well, i haven't had the opportunity to go sit and watch every day. but i've read the reporting about it and i've definitely heard the things that glenn has reported. and glenn and i go back to the u.s. attorney's office together in d.c. and worked many yearsing to as prosecutors, he's an excellent prosecutors and agree with his jum on this. but it does seem like they've put together a very strong case and prebunked what may come out as alleged defenses. we've heard a lot about the idea of they were hoping that the former president would invoke the insurrection act and call them forward as the militia to, you know, support his side of things. but of course, first of all, he didn't do that and they still undertook their attack on the

capitol. >> right. they didn't wait for that. >> they didn't wait for that. but secondly, i don't think a president could manufacture an insurrection and then declare the insurrection act. and thirdly, insurrection act is about calling forth the military, not a bunch of guys who like to, you know, larp on weekends with their armed vests and rifles and i probably shouldn't use larp, they are dangerous, and that makes it too light. but they're not real militia. >> they don't have a purpose. right. amazing, amazing day. amazing times. glenn, thank you so much and mary thank you for spending the hour with us. when we come back, zoe lofgren on the sad new violent normal of politics in america in 2022 and the stakes next week. we will be right back.

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one thing is clear. and that is this -- this increasing habit of demonizing political opponents. of just yelling. and, and thinking that not just this i disagree with somebody but they're evil or wrong. that creates a dangerous climate. when true democracy goes away. people get hurt. it has real life consequences. its not some ab instruct political science question. we are all effected. and we take this for granted. and we condition. hi, everyone. it is 5:00 in the new york.

when true democracy goes away, people get hurt. this is the chilling words of barack obama last night during his rally in arizona. we've been covering it here with our own eyes as the political and legal attacks against democracy has ratcheted up, so too have the violent attacks against those perceived enemies. it a concept fundamental to any democracy, especially ours that, individuals should be able to voice their opinions without fear of being physically harmed or retaliated against. it is a principle president obama spoke about but lived last night. take a look at his response to a heckler in his audience. >> are you going to tart -- are you going to start yelling? why are you yelling? hold on.

i said, everybody don't get distracted. wait, wait. wait a wait. hold up. hold up. hold up. hold up. hey, young man. young man, just listen for a second. you know, you have to be polite and civil when people are talking then other people are talking. and then you get a chance to talk. sit up your own rally. a lot of people worked hard for this. come on, man. come on. this is part of what happens in our politics these days. we get distracted. you got one person yelling and some -- everybody is yelling. you get one tweet that is stupid and suddenly everybody is obsessed with the tweet. we can't fall for that. we have to stay focused. >> he puts the shiny object

strategy. he's condemning the ex president and going on to point out that yelling has resulted in real fearful times. scary incidents, specifically last week's attack on paul pelosi propelled our next guest to send a letter this week to demand answers from the capitol police about how members of congress are being protected outside of d.c. she wrote this incident and related circumstances including the manner in which the speaker and her family were targeted raise significant questions about security protections for members of congress. particularly those in the presidential line of succession. navigating this heightened era of political violence is where we begin the hour with zoe lofgren, a member of the house select committee. thank you for being with us today. >> thank you. um, the letter, actually, um, raises issues generally. but i think most specifically the line of succession, the

speaker of the house is right behind the vice president in the line of succession for the presidency. and so, the level of protection for the speaker falls, you know, far short of what is provided to the vice president and his or her family and i think we've got to examine that from the continuity of government point of view. but i don't want just a former president obama said to be distracted, we need to evaluate our posture. but we can't overlook and the focus ought to be on the climate of violence that has been created by some on the far right. and the fact that for most part the political leaders in the republican party, i'm not talking about normal republicans out here at home voters, i'm talking about the people that got sent to washington, they are not condemning it. and by not condemning it, they

have responsibility for allowing it to go forward. i mean, even the attack on paul pelosi, i mean, the former president's son made a joke about it. who is condemning that? the form he president himself engaged in some bizarre conspiracy theory which is absurd. but more than absurd, it is dangerous. and the fact that those who have been sent to washington by enlarge normal voters here in the country, both republicans and democrats, are allowing this to fester, it is dangerous. and i think voters have a tremendous responsibility to think through in a very sober way what direction do they want our country to go in. and that really is the decision that they're going to make this tuesday. >> and to your point, it's not just a lack of taking the

reality of political violence seriously, it is seemingly intentional efforts to stoke the forces that inspire and incite it. and there are candidates running for governor making jokes about it. it is become a punch line. on the right elon musk circulated a conspiracy theory that he later took down. and, we talk about violence because it is a story that we're all covering and that is the reality you're living and trying to have answers for in your official duties. but last week it was anti-semitism. and i interviewed the head of the adl about why he thought mitch mcconnell and others wouldn't disregard racist attacks and then asian-americans and calling covid-19 the kung flu and then it was racist comments from the podium by senator tuberville. this is the right is rotten from the top to the bottom in terms of its leader refusing to

refer -- the rhetoric tied to violent acts. how do you fix that? >> well, i think that as long as republican extremist leaders are rewarded for that extremism, they will continue. that is why they're doing it. they think it will help them gain power. so, i think one of the clearest ways to make them stop is to make it not a rewarding activity for them. i think, you know, we're concerned about inflation. it is going on in europe and in america, it is going on in canada. it is going on all over the world. it is not something that democrats or for that matter republicans devised. but if you're going to reward extremist leaders in washington because we don't like the price of gas, you're buying into a more violent political future. and that is really something that people need to think very carefully about when they go to the polls on tuesday. >> you're colleague on the slot

committee adam kinzinger said liz cheney and i are not brave, we are simply surrounded by cowards. do you agree with his assessment of the party. >> he and liz have been stalwart. i don't agree with them on a whole variety of policy issues, on choice and guns, but they believe in the constitution and they are not afraid to stand up and say so. and for that, they have been threatened, thrown out of parties, condemned, it is a mystery that someone like congresswoman green who now -- who said she will have a leadership role in congress if the republicans gain the majority. that that person's very qanon philosophy is embraced by republican leaders in washington. whereas people who embrace the

constitution like liz and adam are shunned. that really tells you what is going on in washington. and i think it is important for all of the normal voters, i mean they're not involved in that, to have a very sober assessment of what they're buying into what they vote on tuesday. >> and to your point, not only been shunned, they're out of work. they're leaving the body and leaving as you said, to marjorie taylor green's wake. i want to shift to the work of your committee. since we've last spoke, we've seen new evidence that your committee has obtained. emails from mr. eastman about a desire to just get these cases to clarence thomas. is that new information to you, do you have new questions about that. tell me how the committee received that? >> well, we received it in a way on accident, i mean we won the court case and then there was

going to be a appeal, the material was sent to us, and it was part of a court filing and therefore became public. but, no, we had not had that information before it was leased. and i think it shows a lot about the intent of mr. eastman and it is not just that, if you read through the emails, the former president signed an affidavit apparently under penalty of perjury that was false and apparently knowingly false. so that is problematic. but mr. eastman refused to testify before our committee. he took the fifth a number of times. now you could see why he was afraid of prosecution. >> well what is so interesting. so he takes fifth to not incriminate himself but it is his emails that go the farthest in incriminating donald trump. and there the small end, the crimes of perjury and the will to overthrow the will of the

voters. has this evidence changed or influenced or been weighed as part of the conversations about criminal referrals for trump or anybody else? >> well we're in the process of going through that. i would just say this evident is cumulative as to the plot and the steps taken. we have already proven that, i believe, with the other evidence. we have a subcommittee made of all of the lawyers on the committee, myself included, to go through all of the information that we have, take a look at the criminal code, and then see what we want to recommend to our colleagues for referral. and that has not been concluded yet. >> i just want to read for ow viewers what we're talking about. this is politico reporting. we want to frame things so that thomas could be the one to issue some sort of stay or other circuit justice opinion saying georgia is in legitimate doubt.

that was trump attorney kenneth cheeseboro who wrote that december 31st, 2020 email. and con tended that thomas would be our only chance to get a favorable judicial opinion by january 6 which might hold up the georgia count in congressment i think agree with this he replied sugging that a favorable move by justice thomas or other justices would, quote, kick the georgia legislature into gear to help over turn the election results. politico goes on to say that the messages were part of the batch of 80 emails obtained by politico that eastman had sought to withhold from your committee but a judge ordered them to be turned over any way as crimed likely committed by eastman and trump. i know you've already voluntarily invited for questioning ginni thomas. but i wonder if anything in these emails you in any follow up questions of her? >> well we did, as has been publicly reported by mrs.

thomas, interview her. the emails don't reflect any communications between dr. eastman and her. we had a long discussion with her. so i don't think this adds a lot to her -- to her involvement. >> and it does help us, as the public, understand why a federal judge described likely federal charges by mr. eastman and mr. trump, do you confident that that will be accountability for those men? >> well, if the end, who gets prosecuted is not up to me or any legislative committee. that is up to the department of justice. we have unearthed a very large amount of information about misconduct, some of which would cause you to -- to a crime as judge clark stated in his opinion in california.

now, the burden of proof for prosecution is beyond a reasonable doubt. and that is something that the doj needs to look at. you never bring a case that you don't think you could win. so that is their job. but i do think a political accountability is also important. and those -- and it is not just dr. eastman an the former president, but the members -- a majority of the republicans in the house of representatives voted to overturn the election. i mean, it is stunning. and i think there needs to -- those individuals need to be held to answer for that. why did they think that it was up to them to overturn the results of the voters. it is really a pretty shocking set of circumstances and another thing that voters could very soberly analyze as they cast their votes on tuesday. >> the committee did an extraordinary job putting all of the evidence before the public and it is certainly, i think,

coincides with democrat surged in terms of the issues that the public cared about going into these midterms. and the other side, we've been talking about reporting that cleata mitchell and john eastman, the architect of the coup plot are working to file frivolous lawsuits about nonexistent fraud to gunk up the elections and create political instability. a climate in which violence could occur. what are your concerned heading into next week? >> well i do have a concerns, obviously. we've had a history of elections that were run cleanly in this country. i mean, i was in local government before i ran for congress and i had occasion to oversee elections. they're run, we have a registrar of voters, but volunteers come in -- come out every year to help, you know, in my neighborhood it was mrs. lucky was always in the garage

checking people in. and that is happening all over the united states. and that is really something to cherish and not allow extremists to try and taint. and that is what we see going on here. let's trust our neighbors, let's trust our local government officials an let's trust in the united state of america and vote accordingly. >> congresswoman, zoe lofgren thank you for your services and your starting us off this hour. it is great to see you. >> good to see you. when we come back, hillary clinton and new york attorney general letitia james, high powered democratic women who have gone toe-to-toe with the ex president rallies women voters to get out and vote. the message taking on new urgency in the face of republican extremism. one republican candidate is now calling for community review boards to decide whether rape vikes should be allowed to access abortion care. that is is next. and later my deer friend

whoopi goldberg on what may be the most consequential movie in a very, very long time. the film is "till" it is a matter piece, the story of the kidnapping and lynching of african american teen emit till. the relevance is as deep as ever seven decades after this horrific murder. we'll have that conversation for you. deadline white house will continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ck break don't go anywhere. your projects done right . with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness check out angi.com today. angi... and done. the first time your sales reached 100k

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can you think of any laws that give government the power to make decisions about the male

body? [ crowd chanting ] >> would a 10-year-old choose to carry a baby? >> i -- >> i think we're all deciding as a democratic society is who will wield power and what they will do with this power. >> state's can't be trusted with the power to regular concealed handguns but they can force you to give birth to a child against your will. >> can you not tell me you care about children before they're born but you don't gave a damn about what happens to the child after it is born. >> yes, they will pass a national abortion ban. they will pass massive tax cuts for rich. they will cut or eliminate entitlement. they want to destroy american institutions. >> this is one fight for the republicans to try to regain the power they've lost. >> the most correction of your lives because we might lose dngs democracy. >> it is a powerful closing argument from eric swalwell.

right now hillary clinton and along with vice president kamala harris and new york attorney littisha james are hitting the campaign trail for new york governor kathy hochul as part of an effort to urge women to show up to the polls for an election that is critical for their rights an freedoms. in states like michigan and nebraska, kansas, wisconsin, and north carolina and arizona. next week could determine the future access to abortion care. as republican candidates across the country campaign on repealing abortion rights. candidates like television personality dr. oz have said they believe abortion should be a decision made between a woman and her doctor and the local political leaders and that is a quote. not to be outdone, a republican running for congress in north carolina has called for rape panels. you could not make this up. those panels will determine whether survivors of rape a

incest could have access to care. and joining us now alyssa mark yim yox, and joy you are in florida ahead of the big show. i know you have val demings an charlie crist. tell me what you're hearing. >> and by the way, left off that list was marco rubio, who is obviously the incumbent would val demmings is trying to unseat. he's the co-sponsor of lindsey graham's national abortion ban bill. so, you know, this is a sthat that already has a 15-week abortion ban. we've seen some frightening cases, a seventh grader who had to leave the state of florida because she was a victim of incest and couldn't get an abortion here and had to go to another state. so this is the reality already in the state where i am. that you've got a lot of restrictions and a very, very, very conservative state legislature, and a governor who

happily signed that ban. so, it is a huge issue. as for what i'm hearing, a lot of fear. a lot of fear about the issue of abortion. but also, i don't know, there is a weird feeling here in florida of a lack of urgency, if i could call it that, just talking to folks would were working on campaigns here, one of fears that one of a friend of mine in south florida said that she's hearing a lot of fears among african american voters about a different issue. about fear of being arrested if they go to vote. not that they themselves have any felony record but they saw the arrests of those 20 people who had fell convictions and then had sheriff's show up at their doors and arrest them. and it is literally causing fear among black voters who think, well, what is the criteria. if i had a parking ticket, that i didn't pay or i if i have a summons or maybe i didn't do

anything. but people are reticent to go to the polls because those arrests had their intented effect. they had the effect to frighten a lot of voters who haven't done anything wrong but who feared that the law has been turned against black voters in particular. so, i'm hearing a lot of that. i was on the radio doing a bunch of call ins to black and caribbean radio stations this morning and the most alarming thing i heard from those hosts is that the lack of urgency, despite all of the people knowing what the stakes are. right. they now what is at stake is whether you own yourself or your own body. people get that. and people know what is at stake whether you could vote at all or whether history will be taught in school or deleted from the history of florida schools that folks aren't turning out. black voters in particular. the turnout is really, really weak. i don't know why. i can't explain it but that is what i'm hearing.

>> since we've been talking, news has broken that paul pelosi has just been released from the hospital. obviously paul pelosi suffered horrific injuries from a break-in to their san francisco home. the speaker was in washington at the time. the attack has ignited or revealed what the right is beholden to, conspiracy theories and a not so soft spoken acceptance of political violence. alexi, he's out of the hospital. i wonder what you're hearing from sources about how this very real threat of political violence is either to joy's point part of the conversation or part of the mood. >> yeah, you know, i just had a conversation yesterday with maria kumar, ahead of voter latino friend of the network and she's been involved with her organization fighting against these poll observers standing outside of mail-in drop boxes in

arizona and in fatigues and with guns because of this new sort of political era that we're in where politics is leading to violence or threatening actions and as you mentioned, nicolle, sort of revealing the ways in which some folks on right don't even take that type of political violence seriously or go as far as to, you know, make fun of paul pelosi or peddle in conspiracy theories. we've seen the way that they've tried to downplay the violence, political violence of course that happened on january 6. and democrats i talked to today and yesterday in light of this recent attack, have said that they're really looking toward november 9th and beyond because they think this will continue, especially if and when republicans get animated and in contesting any sort of results that they think were fraudulent or wrong. >> joy, i'm curious how, you know, what is notable to me is that republicans say they're running on inflation and crime.

republicans have not presented any solutions to their voters on either of those topics and that state is run by a republican. so how are those issues playing out there? >> you know what is so interesting, too, is that i have actually never heard a person who isn't an economist or works on cnbc, i used to do cnbc as a lot as a guest, i used to do larry kudlow a few times a week and the only people using the word inflation are journalists and economists. so that is not part of the normal lexicon of the way people talk. so it is interesting that republicans are doing something that they don't normally do. which is not use the common tongue, or common english on their campaigns like with crime. but what they've done is they've taught people the word inflation. and most people would have never used that word ever in their lives are using it now because they've been taught it. and including on tv and including in newspapers. they've been taught this word. and they sort of wrap this word around whatever it is that they want to vote -- the reasons they

want to vote. i've heard a lot of people say cost of goods are high. it is really expensive to live here. this is become a very expensive state. when i moved here, my family moved here because it was a -- an affordable place to buy a house. it is more expensive in miami than this is in new york. it is extremely expensive. so a lot of complaints about the cost of rent, the cost of insurance and the inability to get insurance as well. it is a huge crisis in this state. but the people i hear talk about that, they're not voting republican. these are people who are african americans, young people, people who are democrats. and so they're not saying, because it is hard and expensive to live here, i now am going to vote for desantis. the kind of people who you hear down here saying they like desantis is not about ip flation. it is about the fact that he didn't close state during covid. that is the strongest issue for him. that he let covid run wild here and let students and businesses

go back to school and open up and not have masks and so that he was very definitive on not wanting to stop covid at all and had this very open and unrestrictive policych that is -- that is what helped him with that. and the people who are suffering most in the economy are the people who really need to be turning out and voting because if they did vote, they are scared that this is becoming a place that is more autocratic, that their history won't be taught in school, they don't control their bodies, those are the very voters who are in other states are turning out in droves. who in states like georgia and in pennsylvania, women who have these concerns, they're voting. so there is a puzzle about florida that is very hard to unlock. it is a very unusual state. and i think for the candidate that i'm going to talk to tonight, one of my big questions is how do you unlock that. and how do you make that connection between people stated fears ant solution to their

fears which is so vote. >> alex, i'll give you the last word. what are you watching for in the final days ahead of tuesday? >> well certainly the reproductive rights conversation and crime as we've been talking about. and i mean i just wrote about this for axios this week as republicans continue to lean into crime as what they hope to be sort of democrats death now. they've been cutting these ads that are either misleading or entirely false, some that have been taken down from tv stations and in placed like north carolina and the u.s. senate race. in the governor's race in new york, i know everyone is giving credit to congressman lee zeldin for him leaning into crime and that leading to his tightening of the race against governor hochul. he'd had to ads on crime that folks have had issues with because one includes of clips of violence in california and the other the family of a victim featured in the video is asking him to remove their son before he died from this video.

so, republicans are really trying to figure out what that message is on crime and a lot of it is relying solely on fear. and i think in the era of trump and the era of dobbs, didn'ts aren't aring go sit at home and let this happen. i think they're clear about what is at stake. >> we'll all watching you tonight on the readout. you have val demings an charlie crist and we'll pop some popcorn and watch you live from orlando. joy read and alexi. two of my favorite friends. when we come back, whoopi goldberg and her conversation about her exquisite and powerful new movie "till." whoopi will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe. ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ ♪ ow, ow ♪ ♪ with a big, fresh carrot ♪ ♪ and a whole lot of cheese ♪ ♪ and the mirror from your van is halfway down the street ♪

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it is one of the darkest chapters in our country's history. the brutal murder of a 14-year-old black boy in mississippi in 1955. emmett till was captured and tortured and launched after being accused whistling at a white woman in a grocery store. it ignited the civil rights movement thanked to emit's mom who made gut-wrenching decision after gut-wrenching decision key among them was to hold on open casket funeral. so the nation and the world

could bare witness to the savagery of her son's killing. she spent the rest of her life seeking justice for her beautiful beloved boy. who she called beau. the story has largely been lost to history until right now. thanks to an extraordinary new fill "till", simply put it is a masterpiece. it is already generating much deserved oscar buzz. it is essential viewing that my dear friend academy award winner whoopi goldberg, executive produced and also stars in. i have the privilege of speaking with her about it early toward. here is a little bit of our conversation. >> since i have known you, you've been willing this into being. >> yeah, it is a story black america has known because it is how we send our children off to go see grandparents and aunts and uncles down south. don't forget what happened to emmett. this is how you need to behave when you're down there. and for me this is -- emmett's

story is really the culmination of what institutional racism looks like. this is what institutional racism allows. it allows people to come in and take your kids and allows people to get away with murdering your kids and allows people to talk to you as though if you don't have any value in the world and given all that is happening, all of the things that we're seeing, i really want -- to make sure that we told this in a way that everyone could see. i tell people, you could bring your 12-year-old to see this. you know. you need to -- because if you're going to erase the history that has already been put out there, then we need to put in a film so you can see what this will look like if you don't stop it now. >> you're in the movie. you're mamie's mom gloria.

>> yeah. >> is her mom. but is it started out with this this conversation, she tells her boy beau, be small. >> yeah. >> all right. now you're going to miss your train. beau, when you get down there -- >> oh, not again, momma. i'm already been to mississippi. >> only one time before and you started a fight with another little boy. >> he was picking on me. >> you're in the right to stand up for yourself but that is not what i'm talking about. they have a different set of rules for negroes down there. are you listening? >> yes. >> you have to be extra careful with white people. you can't risk looking at them the wrong way. >> i know. >> beau, be small down there. >> like this.

>> does that still happen? >> yeah. listen, you know, because racism is so volatile, you have to -- you have to really sort of let people know. and it is still -- it is not like it doesn't happen now. it is -- we've seen it over and over and over. and the fact that this story is 67 years old, you know, or 68 years old, means that we haven't gotten it through to people. this is not to make anybody feel anything other than you don't ever want this to happen again. because if it happens with us, it is going to happen to you. and if you're -- if you're lgbtq camp, if you're a white woman, these issues are yours too. it goes from racism to all of

the other isms and that is what you don't want. because isms come to your door at some point. so hopefully people see this and say, no, we don't -- we don't like that this happened and we think this is bad and make sure it doesn't happen again. that is, you know, that is my hippie pipe dream. but i believe more people -- the more people who see it, the more people who won't forget it. if you have children, this is your story. if you're a mother, this is your story. if you're a dad, this is your your story. but we're talking about the mother. because that is how the world works for emmett and his mother. it was the two of them. and this is their story. and her story of how she honored her son until the second that she died. and all she wanted was for somebody to give him justice. so, will we get justice with the movie? no. but maybe she's have to answer

some questions. the woman on the other side of this. i just want her to answer some questions. that is all. >> she's admitted it was a lie. >> so what do we do? you know. what do we do, when you spend 25 years looking for somebody and then i find them and you know they're the perpetrator, they usually just kind of put them in jail. but she is elderly now. i understand. i understood. so there has to be a consequences for this. not taking her life away. what is left of it. but having to say, out loud in front of people, yes, this happened because of me. and i am devastated. >> you want her to see the movie? >> yeah. i would like her to see the movie. >> there is so much more from my interview with whoopi goldberg.

we'll show it to you today and tomorrow. we also though first want to talk to our friend eddie glaude who will join us our conversation about till and the alarming rise of hate rise in our country 70 years after the murder of emmett till. that is next. murder of emmett till. that is next ( ♪♪ ) (snorting) (clattering) (frustrated grunt) i need some sleep. (groaning) (growling) (silence) (sigh, chuckle)

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the past. it is about the present. and our future as well. >> that is president joe biden in the rose garden this year. after signing the emmett till anti-lynching act. some 67 years later making it a federal hate crime. but it took that long to make that happen is shocking. along with the fact that three republicans voted against the measure. joining our conversation, eddie glaude, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university and an msnbc political analyst. we should start with the deef -- divine and i know you watched it and i'm still wrecked and it took me a minute to get myself together to talk to whoopi about it. tell me your thoughts on the movie? >> it took me a long time to get myself together, actually, nicolle.

keith and those, whoopi goldberg and those who brought this film to life have done a magnificent job. danielle debt wilder as mobley is just extraordinary. in her performance. what did we see? we see the murder of innocence. but we also saw what? mobley courage, her conviction, and her faith. and those three things in so many ways give birth to the modern civil rights movement. the murder and lynching of emmett till was the south's answer to brow v board of education and the response to emmett till's murder in september of 1955 was the mobilization of every day people to strike the blow for freedom. it is an extraordinary film to capture a extraordinary moment. >> it is so horrific to see a mother put her baby boy on a train and tell him to be small. and it is just the first of the

horrors that she goes through. the second and whoopi and i talked about it her primal scream when her baby comes home in a casket in a wood box. and some of what we've covered together, i think is this sort of collective primal scream at what fails like regression and going back. that there are unsanctioned moments of flagrant racism from sitting republican senators, mr. tuberville, that aren't -- they don't have the consequences of a political price, if anything they have political elevation. and i watched this movie in horror and in in deep fear that we're just going back in the wrong direction. >> and you remember in the film, nicole, miss till mobley had a premonition. she knew her baby wasn't going

to come home. she knew if she sent him south something bad was going to happen to him or in the moment in the coroner's room where she takes her hands and she runs her fingers across every part of her body and cries a deep gutteral cry and then to the aunt who was in muddy, mississippi, who felt like she couldn't look at the body. she says, no, we have to look. we have to look. we're talking about this in the context -- i just received a mailer from stephen miller's organization talking about biden and the radical left are discriminating against white americans and asian-americans. i mean, just blat tant racism, nicole. then i'm thinking about the fact that emmett till's memorial marker has had to be replaced four times in mississippi. the first one was thrown into the river. the second and third one was shriddled with bullets.

i'm talking now, they had to put up a bullet proof memorial. when you talk about the present nature of this, there's a line really quickly from william faulkner in 1955 in response to the murder of emmett till. he said if we in america have reached a point in our desperate culture when we must murder children, we won't survive. and probably shouldn't. >> when you say really quick, i get nervous. you don't have to be really quick with us. the film -- i mean, wrecked is the only word i can think of and it cracks you open but the most shocking thing is when the black screen comes up and you see that the anti-lynching act passed this year, took us 67 years to pass federal anti-lynching legislation. i remember covering at the time and being aware of that, but putting it all out there in this moment just feels really, really

important. >> yeah. you know, we've never really grappled with i think fundamentally with our dead in this regard, and one of the horrors, i remember as we've talked about this over the trials and tribulations over these last few years, i felt so angry because it feels as if sometimes the country just runs over our dead, just runs past them, plays fast and loose. so the fact that it took 67 years and we still don't have -- you made a slight mistake. carolyn bryant said she did not lie. she didn't say that. she hasn't admitted it. and we still don't have justice. in some ways, the film tries to in some ways vindicate this young man that he did not play a role in his murder because some people think he did. the fact that we've waited this long shows how corrupt we are when it comes to this matter,

how corrosive it is, how monstrous we have been and how monstrous we can be it seems. >> so, eddie, i had a really long conversation with whoopie and we're going to show as much of it as we can here. i'd love you to be part of those conversations and put it altogether somewhere because it's really important and your perspective is really important to me. thank you so much for spending some time with us today. >> thank you. >> "till" is in theaters now. as i said, more of my conversation with whoopie tomorrow here on "deadline white house." quick break for us. we'll be right back. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

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