♪ ♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. this perilous moment for our democracy is being defined in part by a surge in one of the oldest forms of hate, the scourge of anti-semitism. it appears to be rearing its ugly head in practically every facet of life in this country. it's become a feature of one of the most alarming trends in recent years. the rise of the growing acceptance of political violence. "the new york times" says -- me-

>> but the threat of violence also looms directly over the jewish community like never before in recent american history. attacks on jewish institutions, they are up 61% from 2020 according to the anti-defamation league. just yesterday, the fbi warned of what it describes as a broad threat to synagogues in new jersey. "the new york times" reports that as a result of a warning, the new york police department immediately announced it had stepped up its monitoring to ensure the safety of every area that encompasses our jewish

citizens and synagogues. of course, we all know that none of this is happening in a having -- vacuum. it's bubbling through sports, culture and our politics. they're the anti-semitic outbursts on social media by kanye west. there's the refusal by kyrie irving to disavow a post he made linking to a documentary filled with conspiracy theorys about jewish people. he's been suspended for at least five games. a statement from the team reads in part -- >> kyrie irving issued an

apology after he was suspended. the decision by the nets to suspend him stands out because sit a stronger rebuke of anti-semitism of anything we have seen from the leaders of the republican party that contains a faction that dabbles in anti-semitic conspiracy authorities. "the washington post" reports -- >> in nevada, the campaign of republican senate nominee alex laxalt denouncedanti-semitic tweet. in georgia, herschel walker did not publicly reject a show of support from the rapper formally known as kanye west. democratic aligned jewish groups

on monday criticized dr. oz, who is the republican senate candidate in pennsylvania for plans to attend a rally with gop nominee doug mastriano. his wife asserted over the weekend she and her husband probably love israel more than a lot of jews do. that was a quote. a rising tide of anti-semitism in america is where we start today. joining me now is the senior vice president for national affairs for the anti-defamation league and led the department of homeland security's task force to counter violent extremism in the united states under multiple presidents, including bush, obama, and trump. ben rods is here, a former deputy national security adviser to president obama, and msnbc contributor. and former fbi counterintelligence agent pete strong is here. george, let me start with you and how you assess the threat environment.

>> nicolle, thank you for having me. i think your segment in the leadup to this question really outlined the appropriate timeline here that we have been seeing as a country unfold. starting with the march in charlottesville, the chant that jews will not replace us, to the attacks on the jewish houses of worship in pittsburgh to other attacks targeting latino and immigrant communities in el paso, texas and elsewhere across the country. the rise of anti-semitism has been unmatched and unlike anything we have seen in recent years. the data shows us that last calendar year, 2021, was the highest year on record of anti-semitic incidents in the history of the united states since we have been reporting these incidents. and we're not just talking about individual acts. we're talking collectively, vandalism, violence, hate, harassment, targeted towards individuals because of where

they pray or look like. so the statistics are telling, and what we have here today is that the events with kyrie irving and kanye west, there's a main streaming of anti-semitism that's been in the public eye. it's incredibly unfortunate and disgusting and part of the reason the adl turned down the contribution from kyrie irving that he had initially promised to make. he was given ample opportunity to do the right thing, to apologize and condemn anti-semitism. he failed to do so at almost every step along the way. his suspension is well deserved. his most recent apology is encouraging and a right step. but the key point here, nicolle, is that the education of anti-semitism that adl has been in the business in over a hundred years needs to continue and increase a hundred fold of what we're doing today. >> george, when you look at

extremism, what kyrie irving did has no excuses, and i think time will tell if he can be redeemed and play basketball. but at a bare minimum, he worked for a team that, after a little bit, probably too long, did sanction him. kanye west has too much influence, and that's another conversation about our celebrity culture. but after too much time again, many of his sponsors parted way with him. doug mastriano is getting money from national republican organizations. many republicans ampliied statements made by kanye west. fox news has main stream republicans on their program all the time, no boycott of them. what happens in the extremism world and the proliferation of hate when an organization that has the power to sanction antisemitic speech or conduct doesn't? >> it's incredibly, incredibly

hurtful and impactful to jewish communities across the country. your segment earlier, nicolle, you mentioned the threats to jewish communities in new jersey. in the past 4 1/2 hours, we have seen threats against the sin nothing in birmingham, alabama. this is all in the past 24-hour period. so we know the main streaming of these idealologies, these inciteful ideologies, have real world law enforcement consequences. jewish houses of worship are targeted. individuals are -- in the case of many instances across the country, attacked. and in some instances, killed and murdered like in pittsburgh. so there's real world consequences that unfortunately we have seen are a matter of life and death when these conspiracy theorys land in the minds of people that have a preponderance or inclination to do something with these insidious ideologies. >> george, because it's been

your life's work, what do you make of this moment where extremism, which really i understand it can most effectively be countered from within its own community. one of the two major political parties has done nothing to rein in or push back against extremism. and i asked what are the conversations like with mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy, when he asked the two most powerful elected republicans to condemn anti-semitism, they say no. while mitch mcconnell won't even condemn racist attacks against his own wife, elaine chow, when they come from donald trump, what is the impact when leading republicans won't police their own side? >> what i can share with you, nicolle, we've been on the forefront engaging across the political spectrum in a bipartisan and nonpartisan ways

of anti-semitism from well before the trump era began and we'll continue to do so. the other thing i can tell you, your question is in the most polarized political climate we've been in this country in decades. i started working on these issues of combatting ideal logically motivated extremism after 9/11. now we're talking about it in a domestic nature and a political context. so more leaders, more public officials need to stand up and speak out forcefully not just against anti-semitism but hateful or inciteful ideology that we know in the case of adl, protecting jewish communities daily that can be very inciteful and debt mental to communities across the country. today in new jersey, there will be congregations and houses of

worship that don't come together and pray like they do because of the threats emanating in new jersey. the same thing is true tonight in birmingham, alabama. that is not okay and that's not a society that we should be okay living in or okay raising our children in. >> pete strong, what does the fbi see when it issues a broad warning about synagogues in new jersey? >> i think the fbi was concerned enough that they put the day before the sabbath, they put out a warning that was significant enough that they wanted to put everybody on notice that there was this threat of violence. thankfully, they indicated last night and again today they identified at least in new jersey, an individual who is the source of these threats. they indicated he had expressed an extreme amount of hate toward the jewish people. when you look at this, particularly a federal law enforcement agency like the fbi, this is the anti-semitic vitriol

that is present across the board in our nation's dialogue, whether it's coming from politicians, entertainers, athletes, this is something that is normalizing and encouraging violence. it may not be -- in many cases it's not coming from an organized group. these are people that are not right to begin with, who buy into this sort of just vile rhetoric. they take it upon themselves because they think it's already in engaging in threats and in violence. if you are trying to prevent violence, that's a nearly impossible task. you can see when you look at discrete organizations who may be putting forward, you know, anti-semitic tropes or saying things, but when it comes to recipients and they decide to take matters into their own hands, that's dangerous and very, very hard to get ahead of something like that and preventing that violence before it occurs. >> pete, does law enforcement have the tools they need to make

this pivot that george described, that the work of government, counterextremism, experts has been largely directed at the extremism behind al qaeda and isis and things that led to a heightened threat environment in the years after 9/11 here in american institutions around the world, but as christopher wray testified under oath, a far greater threat is under domestic violence, and the largest group are white nationalists and racists, what do we do about that? do your former colleagues at the fbi have the tools to protect us? >> they have a huge task in front of them. the issue is the fbi cannot influence, you know, political dialogue in this nation. they can encourage a decrease in violent rhetoric, a turn away from anti-semitism or encouraging violence against others. but the fact of the matter is, when you look at qanon, who a

huge number of people running for office in just a few days, support the tenants and ideas of qanon and you go to any conference, if you go to any of these places and look at what qanon is putting forth, you see reference after reference after reference to george soros, to the rothchilds. all these old, horrible anti-semitic tropes pointing to the jewish system or the banking system or the one world order, it is incorporated into the dialogue and political ideas on the part of a huge number of candidates. the fbi can't do anything about that. they can look to those people listening to this, who are becoming radicalized by this. but the cause at the end of the day are coming from leaders, whether it's in politics, entertainment, whether it's in the sporting industry. these are the folks that need to say this is unacceptable and it has to stop. and i'm worried we're having a

difficult time getting anybody to say that. >> and let's be explicit and deal with the elephant in the room. this is not really the same problem across the idealogical spectrum. and there are exceptions. but by and large, this is a republican party establishment that refuses to counter anti-semitism in its ranks on the ballot. this is what josh shapiro had to say, running against doug mastriano. >> the real issue is not how his anti-semitism makes me feel. the real issue here is that every time he spews this anti-semitism or racism or other kinds of bigotry, or engages with white supremacists, as he routinely does, including just last night, it's not about how it makes me feel, it's the fact that it makes every pennsylvaniaen less safe. if you don't think like him or look like him or vote like him

or marry like him or worship like him, then you don't count in his pennsylvania. i want to be a governor for all people, no matter what you look like, who you love or who you pray to. i think fundamentally, we need to understand that hate speech begets hate crimes. the leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity. >> hate speech begets hate crimes. that's the most -- that's the most succinct articulation of what we are talking about, ben. >> we have to be honest about the ideologies that inform this. one of his slogans when donald trump came to office was america first. it doesn't take long to determine the origins of that ideology. the america first movement was deeply tied to an an --

that we see today, that's tied to the idealogical origins of nationalism. when you take those deep cords of ideology that we see today and you mix that with the spread of conspiracy theory that we see on social media, it is a very dangerous and potent strain that is being pumped into the american blood stream, a combination that can lead to violence as it has again and again. the only solution to this, the only way to start to try to reverse that trend is for responsible leaders to come forward and condemn this and try to separate themselves out from what should be out of bounds in terms of the discourse. not only is it hateful, it puts

people at real risk. and yes, we have not seen them have the guts to stand up and separate themselves from qanon or america firsterism, but that still is the only thing that will turn this around. if they don't, it will fall increasingly to people like the ownership of the brooklyn nets. or owners of companies, because this stuff will spread throughout society and it's not being controlled by responsible leadership in the republican party. it will have to fall to everybody else. we should have no illusions. if this stuff is continuing to be tolerated by the republican party, we should have no expectation that it won't to spread. >> ben, let me read this to you from "the new york times."

>> again, i guess i suffer from being old enough to remember when speaking like that disqualified you or put you in time-out for many, many years. but the contrary is true, ben rhodes. he is flirting with another run for the white house with no signs that elected republican leaders like mitch mcconnell or kevin mccarthy or anyone else is putting a distance between him and them. what does that do for what you're describing, the

normalizing and mainlining of anti-semitism? >> i think it's really dangerous and there are two elements to it. the first is, he's so fixated on identity politics, right? he's the main purveyor of identity politics today. he reduces all of jewish identity in this country to policy related israel. and he fails to recognize or maybe just doesn't care how anti-semitic that is to basically say that the only thing a jewish american should care about is donald trump's positions on israel. reducing people just to identity is part of the problem. but the bigger problem is how much it can lead to the kind of historical conspiracy theorys that lead to very real violence. this is the one world government garbage that we see from the qanon type theorys or the kind

of theorys that we see that george soros is part of a global financial elite aiming to control politics. these are -- this dates back to the protocols of the elders of zionist garbage. when you have the leader of the republican party, the former president of the united states, normalizing this, celebrating it at his rallies, of course that will take someone who has fringe views and make them feel empowered. they would feel like their identities are under assault, and that they're empowered to do something about it. and that is what is causing all of these people to crawl out, because they feel like they have cover for it. whether it's from margorie taylor greene or donald trump. once they see people in positions of authority winking at them, then they think it's okay to act on it. that is incredibly dangerous and why we do need responsible leadership. and to be honest, it can't just be democrats out there condemning this stuff as

important as that is, they should, but it has to come from within the republican party itself. >> thank you all for being here setting the table for this conversation. when we come back, the january 6th select committee's deadline for the ex-president's subpoena for documents is today, right now. just this afternoon, we're learning that the committee is stepping up its contact with several key secret service figures, including the driver of trump's motorcade on the day of the riot. we'll talk with a reporter on that about what that means. plus, how speaker nancy pelosi is speaking out today. just a day after her husband's release from the hospital. saying there's no question democracy is on the ballot, adding that she's optimistic about her party's midterm prospects with the election four days away. and how people are fighting back against those so-called election

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committee is in discussions with president trump's attorneys, and he has an obligation to comply. and, you know, we treat this and take this very seriously. this is not a situation where, you know, the committee is going to put itself at the mercy of donald trump in terms of, you know, his efforts to create a circus. >> no circus allowed.

the subpoena saying he is obligated to comply. today is the deadline for him to turn over documents that was part of the subpoena. he was subpoenaed for documents and testimony. they asked for various messages, call logs and handwritten notes from on and around january 6th and going back as far as september 20th. if he does not comply with the subpoenas today, it is unclear what they will do next. and a criminal referral is looming for him. the work of the committee is very much ongoing. nbc news is learning in just the last few hours, the january 6th select committee has been in contact with several key secret service figures that includes agents who were in donald trump's motorcade on january 6th. joining us now, is luke. i had congresswoman lofgren on yesterday and they're a little

protected about what is this final tranche of investigative work they're doing, but it's clear, the eastman memos are one example, the secret service member in the motorcade is another. what is your sense of the significance of this? >> right. this is the last push the committee is doing before they really need to finish the report by the end of the year. you know, as you reported, the -- they're spending a lot of time these last couple of weeks, bringing in various people from the secret service and going through these 1.5 million pages of documents they've gotten from the service in response to their subpoena. one thing i know the committee is very interested in is whether anyone purposefully obstructed their knowledge of certain events, particularly donald trump and his behavior inside the suv that day where he wanted to go to the capitol. there's some belief that some of the prior witnesses weren't

totally forthcoming with the committee, and that some had convenient bouts of amnesia and forgot other events. so they're trying to get to the bottom of this and was the secret service on the level when they testified previously to the committee? so that is one key thing they're investigating currently. >> they accused them of lying in the final public hearing and haven't ruled out -- i asked congressman aguilar -- haven't ruled out a criminal referral for lying to congress, but they were interested in bringing those two back. any indication that those return depositions have been scheduled? >> my understanding is that they will -- everybody says these interviews will happen, they just haven't happened yet. but given they are bringing in so many other people from the secret service, i suspect they will happen season and the

committee is counting on that. so i think they expect to hold him to that pledge that was made publicly on his behalf. of course, you know, the committee -- the big looming thing now will be what they get from donald trump on top of this stuff from the secret service and on top of the new eastman emails and the various other testimony they're getting in. they just interviewed hope hicks last week, so they're getting more testimony and what can they do with that to build the report and also a criminal referral. >> you know, pete, they have made abundantly clear that in their view if donald trump isn't held accountable for his crimes from january 6th, we do not live in a country where the rule of law applies equally. are they marshaling evidence for specific criminal referrals for

doj? >> nicolle, that's a good question. accountability comes in a couple of different forms. one certainly is political accountability. when it comes to the january 6th committee, that is something they're particularly well suited to look into. throughout the statements and hearings, it is clear at certain points they are presenting information in the context of violations of federal law that you look at, you know, the elements oh of a crime and you see that the committee will talk to those specific elements. but at other times, i think they're very well aware what they are doing is independent and is separate and distinct from what's going on at the department of justice. so their ability to tell a story, not necessarily tethered to whether or not it's a specific violation of law. in many ways serves a much greater purpose to the american public, laying out all these facts which may not be relevant to any particular one thing doj is looking at, are focusing on that path. we have seen doj moving along and it continues to build in

terms of folks that are going into the grand jury. any number of cases that are going on right now as we speak, with the various conspiracy trials. but i think the committee understands they are faced with a short window to get everything they want, information wise, before they're having to both wrap up and write the report and may or may not keep the majority in the congress. >> pete, reading the reporting on this, it's so obvious now how important cassidy hutchinson's testimony was. it's clear to luke's point, they're looking at efforts to disqualify or cast doubt upon her public and private testimony after it was delivered. and they haven't found any. if anything, it seems from the outside, the committee worked overtime to help corroborate her testimony. how do you evaluate her as a

witness if this moves over to doj? >> well, i certainly think she's proven to be a very credible witness. her statements, her testimony has been looked at by the committee all across the media, certainly by politicians on both sides of the aisle, and there's been nothing that undermines any of her statements. so in terms of her credibility as a witness, and she changed attorneys and got a very competent attorney in the form of jody hunt who served in the past administration. any good attorney is not going to let their client go into a setting like the january 6th committee, and do anything close to letting them purger themselves. so when it comes to the department of justice or the fbi asking to sit down and interview her and talk with her, you have a person who has, by all accounts, a consistent story, a very good recollection of events and facts, and that is pointing to several inconsistencies that luke indicated, really call into

question some of the earlier testimony by these secret service officials in their initial conversations with the committee. >> luke, i want to just remind everyone what the committee has asked trump for, what is due today. this is from npr's reporting. the committee wants to see one set of records the panel is after, involving communications of the proud boys and oath keepers. the committee has ordered trump to turn over conversations that may have taken place between himself and either group from september 2020 to present. other high profile people found the committee's order include roger stone, steve bannon, mike flynn, rudy giuliani. i mean, at least three of them are known to be under criminal investigation by doj. and the oath keepers and proud boys have -- members of both groups have pled guilty to seditious conspiracy. what does this list say to you? what are they looking for? >> what it says to me is that

donald trump was the central person this the scheme to overturn the election. you know, we can talk about john eastman or mark meadows. but none of those people are doing what they're doing without donald trump's commitment to refuse to acknowledge the results of the election and to look for any way possible to stay in office. and so they're looking at all the different threads of this, of this plot, you know, the fake electors. the amassing of the crowd at the ellipse. the violent attack by domestic violent extremist groups. all of these different threads of the investigation all lead back to donald trump. so anything he has, anything documents, any piece of paperwork, should be given to the committee according to the subpoena. just to be thorough, they named 13 people, some of those names you read, which was -- it doesn't even have to be on the specific topic. they just want to see anything,

you know, any communication between stone and trump, flynn and trump, any of these things. and it shows if those people are talking during this time, you know, we know that stone and flynn were then in contact with some of the other extreme groups, as well. >> luke, thank you so much. pete strong, thank you for spending time with us today. switching gears for us, nancy pelosi addressed her supporters today, thanking everyone for their support with the midterm elections just days away. that's next. m elections just da away that's next. you ok, man? the internet is telling me a million different ways i should be trading. look! what's up my trade dogs? you should be listening to me. you want to be rich like me? you want to trust me on this one. [inaudible] wow! yeah! it's time to take control of your investing education. cut through the noise

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aarp medicare advantage plans, only from unitedhealthcare. take advantage now at uhc.com/medicare speaker nancy pelosi is breaking her silence after the attack on her husband, paul pelosi, one week ago. our friend jake sherman attained a transcript from a private meeting she attended with supporters today, following her husband's release from the hospital yesterday. just a few minutes ago, the full meeting posted to her social media accounts. she said this, it's going to be a long haul, but he will be well, and it's just so tragic how it happened. but nonetheless, we have to be optimistic. he's surrounded by family so that's a wonderful thing. she then shifted seamlessly to the midterms, rallying supporters for next week, remaining optimistic about the midterm elections, saying i believe this race is very winnable. i've seen enthusiasm,

determination, courage of our candidates, the dedication of our grassroots. the republicans have put in tons of money against our candidates and cut our lead in some cases. but they have not taken us. these are races in many cases too close to call and the margin of error. so i think that what we are doing is not just to win an election but to strengthen our de democracy. first, after going through a family trauma, it's always something everyone is waiting for when the speaker will emerge, and emerge she has with an update on paul pelosi, as well as campaign optimism. donna, what do you think? >> i'm always ever more astounded by the speaker's strength and commitment. i think what people miss about her is that she doesn't just have supporters, but these are friends and relationships she's

developed over a long period of time. she's strengthened by them, her family surrounding her and paul. and i think that came through in the message. and then the shift to politics, no surprise at all. she always talks about message, momentum, and money. she believes that democrats have all of those things going for them in the next several days. and that those of us in the meetia may have underestimated the closeness of these races and how volatile the house and senate are. >> i think that's fair. and there's plenty of straight talking here about things being very, very close. but the speaker suspect -- she's really never been simply a creature of san francisco of her district. she does travel more than just about anybody else. what do you make of her update, personal and political?

>> yes. if you'll indulge me, the personal side is what gets me. my heart goes out to her. you see the video of her and this has been a tough time in the middle of a very important time of our democracy, and she's the leader of the democratic caucus in the house. it just reminds me how sickened i am by the reaction of her republican colleagues to this. paul pelosi, whatever you think about him, is a person, a human with loved ones, an 82-year-old. he did not deserve this to happen to him. and like the idea that we can no longer just count on the fact that everyone would unite together and send their best wishes to the speaker and to paul pelosi just makes me sad and sickens me. i just think the reaction the former president saying this was a breakout, not a break-in. elon musk, ted cruz, megyn kelly on twitter, across the board,

people trying to use this for political advantage before the midterms, inciting more violence in certain cases. this is not -- if you look at how things were on the other side of the coin, and when steve scalise was shot on that baseball field, you didn't see barack obama saying maybe it was his gay lover going after him or maybe it was an inside job or spreading nonsense, he came back to congress and there was a joint prayer session. people stood up and cheered for him, republicans and democrats. earlier when there was an assassination attempt on brett kavanaugh, what was the reaction by joe biden? not to say oh, maybe this is one of brett's old drinking buddies. no, we passed funding through congress to give more protection to supreme court justices. that is how normal, decent people react. that is just -- you know, the politics of this i have to put aside and it is so stark, the indecency of the right in

reaction to this, and just hearing from speaker pelosi really brought that home. >> let's have that conversation instead. i think it's much more revealing. donna, we also are four days out from an election, and the people that peddle the conspiracies, not only have they not had to answer for them, but they're being emulated by republican candidates in close races, people like kari lake. so, you know, to tim's point, there's a lot that's old, right? there's a lot in the republican party that are old things that always was part of that right wing coalition that wasn't pretty. but there are some things that are new. gabby giffords' brutal attack on her was a moment when people on both sides of the political spectrum condemned violence. paul pelosi is not. we started the hour starting about anti-semitism and how hate

speech leads to hate crime. if that holds with political hate speech, political hate speech will lead to more political violence. what do we do about that? >> we've seen not only hate speech, anti-semitism leading to violence, racism leading to violence. and then here you have somebody who is the spouse of our political leader and who is attacked in his home with a hammer. i mean, i'm like tim, i'm just mortified that this could happen and that there are voices in the republican party that are amplifying the conspiracy theorys, am pifying the violence. and there's something that is totally lacking in humanity. paul pelosi is my mother's age. i can't imagine someone breaking into her house and knocking her

in the head with a hammer because of something i said on television. it's gone way beyond the bounds. right now, it feels like republican leaders don't have the capacity or the control to be able to stop it and to say things that will put an end to this and what used to be under a rock is now sitting on top of the mountain, really consuming all of us. i just -- it is shocking that this has happened and that you only have sort of one set of people saying it's wrong, and another group amplifying it for political purposes. >> it really is just the constant dilemma that we have these problems, and we have just half of the country's elected political leaders available to help solve them. not that they have all the answers, but they're at least at the table, anti-semitism, political violence, racism.

both of you stick around. republican margorie taylor greene has told us what she wants to see happen when it comes to funding and support for ukraine, our ally. should the republicans take control of congress. i want to show you how liz chainy responded, next. chainyes rponded, next first psoriasis, then psoriatic arthritis. even walking was tough. i had to do something. i started cosentyx®. cosentyx can help you move, look, and feel better...

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about voting keep this next story in mind. should republicans gain control members of the right wing maga wing of the party are making it really clear that our allies, fellow democracies will be left to themselves. here's conservative looney marjorie taylor greene at a rally in north carolina. >> the only border they care about is ukraine, not america's southern border. under republicans not another penny will go to ukraine. our country comes first. they don't care about our border or our people. >> it fell to liz cheney to do the clapping back. this is exactly what vladimir

putin wants. if we had republicans like this in the 1980s we would have lost the cold war. tim, voters understand that america, a democracy for now if we can keep it that way stands with other democracies so that autocracies like russia don't ascend to world domination. and i've always had faith that voters understood that but what is marjorie taylor greene talking about? do you think what she's promising will come to pass? >> yes. i'm worried about that just on the politics. kevin mccarthy hasn't shown he's going to stand up to the marjorie taylor greenes in the caucus. that will be the first big fight if he takes over the speakership next week. on the broader element of this, where the republican party is going, this is what you were saying before the break, there are other problematic things. this is another new thing. >> right. >> the idea we should be

isolationists. we should not help freedom loving people who are invaded throughout the world. this is a bipartisan consensus ever since world war ii. this was america's job and role in the world, it kept us safe, also is the right thing to do, a beacon of freedom and hope throughout the world. the interesting thing is, when russia invaded ukraine, i was a little worried that the trumpian pro russia maga element of the party would have taken over but if you looked at polls, really republican voters were like we should help ukraine. after months and months of tucker carlson and trump and other guys demagoguing, that number is 50/50. so republican voters are being contaminated by this rhetoric, by marjorie taylor greene, tucker carlson and others. we've seen the old establishment types. this was a chuck grassley rally.

there's no person more old establishment than chuck grassley unwilling to stands up to the maga extremist types on this thing. so i find it hard to believe they're going to stand up to the maga extremists on ukraine if they take over. that's a very important reason to vote next tuesday for sure. >> i remember, donna, the first time i said in terms of their numbers the republican party in this country is the largest authoritarian movement the world over. the right went nuts. nuts. in terms of numbers, the republican party in america is the largest authoritarian movement the world over because supporting putin puts you in line with what putin believes, how he sees the world. i think we make a mistake in the media when we cover those things but the scarier thing, this was a chuck grassley rally, two, the

crowd clapped. applauded. same when kari lake mocked paul pelosi. the scarier piece wasn't kari lake, it was the fact that the crowd guffawed. to tim's point and the whole conversation around extremism and radicalization, what do we do about that? >> well, you know, nicole, you know i've been on the road for a couple of months across the country, and i think one of the things that's been striking to me is to see in real time how much of this stuff is fed and fed and fed into that magabase. they are hearing the messages and they are responding to them. the applause you hear, the laughter you hear, it's a response to that. there was always a small group of particularly of republicans who were more allied with russia

and with putin but it was a small group and now it has grown substantially. remember there were 57 republicans who voted against the ukraine aid package. those numbers are going to grow in a new congress. the only thing that's going to stop it is a group of republicans joined with most democrats in the house and senate that will move that aid forward but it is a scary proposition that this crowd really wants to align themselves with vladimir putin instead of aligning themselves with democracy. >> who is literally after eight months of war carrying out acts of terrorism against the ukrainian civilian population. tim miller, donna edwards, thank you so much for spending time with us. another big hour ahead for us. jen psaki will join us fresh from talking to voters ahead of tuesday. mark elias will be here. don't go anywhere. we will be right back.

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there's too much political violence. there's too much intimidation. there are more than 300 election deniers on the republican tickets this year for state, federal and local government. no, no, this is really serious stuff. if a republican nominee in congress -- for governor in the state of wisconsin wins, here's what he said. he said, if i win, my party will never lose another election in wisconsin. he's either a prophet or he plans on doing something about

election law. >> hi, again, everyone. it is crucial to remind ourselves again and again that when it comes to republican efforts to call into question the legitimacy of elections, fear isn't a byproduct. intimidation isn't a bug, they're the whole point. that's why they do t. if they can't change the results of a previous election, you can bet the house they'll do everything in their power, everything to change the results of the next one. the republican party seeds of doubt planted in the aftermath of the 2020 election are starting to bear fruit from them. from an institutional standpoint we've seen a surge in legal efforts aimed at disqualifying thousands of voters along with the emergence of election police. they're actually making arrests in florida. the latest example today in san lewis, arizona, the making of 2 thousand mules which have to do with drop boxes and cell phone

data. investigators and prosecutors are intimidating voters charging four people with illegally collecting ballots from "the new york times" reporting on this, quote, many hearsay they are afraid to cast ballots or help with voting in the mid-terms for fear of receiving a visit from investigators or running afoul of a new arizona ballot abuse law. sadly that institutionalized scaring is called election vigilantes. people outside of government taking matters into their own hands. as they see it, why wait for a state to purge voters when individual citizens can file mass challenges to kick voters off the rolls on their own. why ask police to monitor drop

boxes and sites when armed activists can don tactical gear and do it themselves. there are reasons for lower voting. is it possible that voter intimidation is among them? the answer to that question is vital for the future of our democracy and it is where we begin the hour. joining us now, mark elias. mark, it's great to see you. i want to go through your piece. tell me what's on your mind here four days ahead of what is really an extraordinary election. >> so, thanks for having me. you know, the thing that strikes me more than anything else right now is how much we are seeing republicans use every tool at their disposal to undermine democracy in free and fair elections. if you think about it in 2020, we started with the president bad mouthing voting and undermining confidence in voting and that started in the spring and went up through election

day. then we saw the abuse of the courts and finally we saw violence on january 6th. what have we seen so far since then? well, we have seen legislatures and republicans speak out in ways that undermine confidence in elections. we have seen now the use of the courts according to democracy docket that tracks this. in 2020 we have seen 170 individual lawsuits in 35 states, 103 of them are active and there are 44 of those 103 that are by anti-voting activists. now we're starting to see the vigil anttiism that may lead to violence. we're seeing the political playbook accelerate. >> i think this is really important that you call it a playbook. let me see if i've captured everything. so elections by republicans in america are not honored. the results, they've already said some of them, they won't accept them.

the peaceful transfer of power ended. i mean, it ended on january 6th of last year. the results of some of these elections are being challenged in lawsuits before the ballot counting has begun and political violence is now implicitly and explicitly accepted by the right. what is the best case scenario on tuesday? >> i think the best case scenario on tuesday is that we have peace, we have people voting and then likely we are dealing with election deniers and big lie advocates for the weeks following. i think that's honestly the best case. the other thing that's different between now and 2020 is after 2020 donald trump was surrounded by disgraced lawyers that people made a mockery of, but if you're blake masters in arizona or you're herschel walker in

georgia or you're a fringe candidate running for house, it's mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy that are behind it. where are they? they were able to stay quiet in 2020 and sort of isolate, but they're embracing these. they are embracing the people who are running as election deniers. what i hear in the aftermath of 2022, even in the best case scenario where we have peace and we have voting, is will kevin mccarthy denounce the candidates who deny the outcome of the election? will mitch mcconnell tell a republican candidate he can see rather than perpetuating false narratives? i doubt it. >> mitch mcconnell specifically, i've mentioned it a few times, it was so striking to me. when i asked jonathan green blat, head of the adl, why he wouldn't condemn anti-semitism from donald trump or anybody else on the right, he wouldn't tell me what their private conversation included and he

said, listen, mitch mcconnell won't defend his wife. i'm going to give you the same answer he gave me. don't hold your breath. i want to go through what feels like an acceleration, again, institutionalized acceleration from 2020 where trump was haphazard and chaotic and advised by this rag tag group of the pillow guy and the overstock guy and everyone he gave pardons to in the final weeks, bannon, flynn and the other guy, bannon. now he's got this army of elected officials and vigilantes that you write about today and just the act of staking out a ballot box, filming it. i don't know why they all have tactical gear in their closets, but they do, and wearing it to the ballot box. are you worried? do you think when we look back that people will have felt fearful to vote? >> sure. i mean, i hope they don't and i hope everyone votes. i hope people overcome that, but

are people fearful when there are people in tactical gear? by the way, airing weapons? yeah. are people fearful when they are experiencing every day people lying about the outcome of 2020 and making movies that vilify people and they read about the threats those people are receiving? sure. when you watch the january 6th hearing you saw people describe the fearfulness that they experienced, the harassment they experienced. yeah, i to worry about that. that's obviously part of their plan. we can't let that win, but we also can't ignore it's going on. >> right. >> you can't simply allow this vigilanteism going on and not say anything. when the vigilantes marched in charlottesville, the republican party, at least some of it, stood up against it. where is the republican party standing up against the vigilanteism we're seeing? >> and i guess a lack of

standing up means complicity, acceptance, enthusiasm? how do you see it? >> oh, i think complicity is an understatement. i think that, you know, you have seen the republican party not just tolerate vigilanteism, you see them embrace it. there is a reason why steve bannon is the leader of the de facto party because she's not standing up. the rnc is not denouncing what the pillow salesmen are saying, what the steve bannons are saying, what the kari lakes are saying. it's more than complicity. they are part of it. >> mark, i know the next several days and weeks are going to be busy. if we could put you on the spot to talk to us monday or tuesday on live tv, i would love that. >> i would love that. any time you'll have me, i'll be there. >> same time monday we'd love to talk to you. thank you so much. let's bring in my friend and colleague msnbc's new -- what is

your title? anchor and contributor, jen psaki. >> not quite yet. almost. >> former white house press secretary. she's been out talking to voters, way out from behind the podium getting their reaction. i'm going to show what you -- you're reporting. i want to first ask you, you know, i worked in the white house. we had brutal fights. half the country disliked my boss. i mean, you were behind the podium doing verbal combat every day. did you ever think you would be covering a laundry list of things in our country that were antidemocratic? >> no. maybe that was naive. i bet you didn't either. and i think what's different now and what feels different now, i've been talking to my former friends and colleagues about this, too, you're not just thinking about how are we going to prepare for a debate about the debt limit or social security, you're preparing for how we're going to deal with there's three -- more than 300 candidates who are election

deniers on the ballot. there is mow lit call violence that is being promoted as mark elias said, ignored, people are complicit in it on the other side and there are challenges that feel quite different than the quaintness of what was going to be in an omnibus bill that i was dealing with ten years ago. >> we're so glad to have you and to have you on these big nights and these big weeks. i want to show some of the reporting and some of your conversations with voters. let me put this one up first. this is andy newburg. >> so what are the issues that make your blood boil on the other side? >> the whole idea of election fraud. just burns me up. hypocrisy just burns me up. i just can't believe that i can see people lying so openly and with confidence and it just -- it's -- it's terrifying and it's also disgusting. just -- it's -- it really does

turn my stomach to see people just accusing and just so sure, revving them up in certain ways. it's a bunch of pitch forks and torches going after whatever will get them this much space and it's all a big power game and it's depressing. >> i guess i had never seen that before, but this might be a democracy voter, right? someone who doesn't like the fact that the side that loses doesn't accept the results. tell me if you saw a lot of that and what he plans to do next week. >> i did. , lorio is running powerful pro democracy ad and it hasn't been something they were running on. as i was walking around westchester county, this issue came up. people were scared of election deniers, they were concerned about disinformation. now the demographics of this district i think are important

here because it is an upper middle class area. it's predominantly white. a lot of people said they know there are concerns -- there are issues in the economy but it's not as important as the protection of our democracy. that was interesting to me. it also left me thinking, you know, there are a lot of ways that we need to -- that democrats need to close with voters. the democratic party is not monolithic. it's not a party of one demographic or one issue, but it was an issue that came up again and again as i was following canvassers earlier this week. >> i want to show another clip of you talking to a voter. i want to follow up on what you just said. how should democrats be closing with voters? >> i think the key thing, nicole, to remember that some districts -- districts are different from each other. while there are places where certainly making the case as to why the democrats have a better plan to address inflation, protect social security is exactly the right one, and there are places where abortion and

protecting abortion rights is absolutely going to work. certainly it would in this district. this is a district where it's pivotal sean patrick maloney come back to congress. this is a democratic leaning district. people there were motivated and excited time and time again as we talk to them about this particular issue. i mean, concerned by it. excited because they were concerned by it. i think what i learned or my take away from this day was that democrats really need to look at what issues are going to light the fire in different districts. candidates are doing that but it's not a choice between one issue or another. >> let me play your conversation with eileen davis, another voter. >> what have you seen that concerns you about what may happen in the election? >> well, the whole election denier thing is a big problem because i am also an election denier from what happened to al gore but we have to agree, take

your loss, take it on the chin, that's how we're all going to -- these laws are not made by god. we all have a social agreement to keep the peace so took our loss and now take yours. >> i love this. obviously i worked for george w. bush but i had played al gore's concession. it is sort of the longer lens of history, it made the difference really between peace and what we're seeing now after 2020. >> true. and it also was so eye opening for me speaking with eileen. she grew up in brooklyn. she's not particularly worried about crime. she said, you know, she's very worried about abortion rights. she's lived in this house for decades, i believe, and she also kind of shared a message that was -- i came away a little concerned for democrats moving forward and this argument about the impact of election deniers because she was basically saying, i didn't like the outcome in 2000 and i thought al

gore should have been president and it wasn't fair and therefore i'm an election denier too. they tend to muddy the waters. we care about democracy, too, just like they do. or on political violence. there's violence on all sides. this is not an all sides issue. the election deniers running are running on the republican side. i thought, oh, my goodness, that is a messaging challenge and will be moving forward for democrats. >> jen psaki, we're so happy to have you at our table in the coming days. i look forward to spending lots of time with you. >> you too. many hours. many cups of coffee together, nicole. >> you'll see, rachel warned you. my snacks are all pellet size. >> perfect. i'll bring some too. >> when we come back, a high stakes game of chicken between attorney general merrick garland and the twice impeached ex-president. brand-new reporting says that the justice department is considering appointing a special

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some new reporting today that suggests -- gives a full insight into how the u.s.

justice department may be thinking about trying to outmaneuver, stay a step ahead of any deceitful attempts by twice impeached ex-president to attack and undermine the sprawling investigations into him and any potential future indictments against him. axios says the expresident's circle is discussing launching a 2024 presidential run on november 14th, ten days from today. "new york times" is reporting people familiar with doj deliberations say the department, quote, hopes to reach a decision on whether to bring charges against trump before the 2020 campaign heats up and is considering appointing a special counsel to oversee investigations against him if he runs again. more from that times reporting, quote, behind the scenes prosecutors have been busily compiling evidence and case law that could be used to frame a memo that would be the basis for any prosecution. some involved in that effort would be concerned that an

indictment or trial to undercut the department's commitment from enforcing the law in a nonpartisan effort. joining us is andrew wiseleman. and michael cohen is here, host of the mea culpa podcast. andrew wiseman, i want to hear your thoughts. i can't hold mine back. this is what donald trump wants the doj to do, to be so scared that it con torts itself to do something that's going to happen either way, protect the department from accusations against politicization. >> so i reacted to it first on a just completely sort of practical level. i think very much the way you did, nicole, but then i also thought about it in terms of how merrick garland at least in monaco may be thinking about this.

let me do the second part first because it may not be as intuitive to viewers. there is a regulation that governs when the attorney general needs to appoint a special counsel and there are different parts to it, but it's actually very fuzzy. but the attorney general needs to find that there is a conflict of interest and that it would be in the public interest to have a special counsel appointed. and if he finds those two things, he must appoint a special counsel. the regulation says he will do that. obviously that's a very fuzzy standard. you would think that this discussion about whether to a point a special counsel would have occurred a long time ago. so for it to come up now when everybody could foresee what was happening here to me seems wrong headed because it's not going to stop any of the critics from attacking that special counsel. it's going to make the honeymoon

period that robert mueller enjoyed look like a huge vacation. i mean, this person's going to be attacked immediately and it's hard to see how they're going to find anyone who really wants the job and is going to in some ways be as impartial and as careful as merrick garland. so you really have somebody right now at the head of the justice department who is about as good as you're ever going to get and who has the backbone and the seriousness and the fortitude to do the job, and i just think trying to react to criticism, if that is what's governing this and if the reporting is correct, is a fool's errand because there's going to be enormous criticism. that is donald trump's playbook. and i think merrick garland knows that. now just the final thought, which is it is incumbent on the attorney general to be engaged in this conversation and discussion and to consider the regulations.

just because he's considering it as the rules require does not mean he's going to do it. and, you know, i would put my chips on that outcome, which is he's considering it as required but will not do it. >> michael cohen, you know better than anybody what special counsels endure from every perspective when donald trump is added to the soup, if you will, but, you know, robert mueller was one. john durham was the other. in his own way trump undermined both of them. durham was seen as corrupt and donald trump pardoned many of the individuals prosecuted by the muller team. what do you make of this? >> yeah. so while i agree with some of the things that andrew said, most of it i don't. i don't care if people criticize at this point. our democracy is on the line. plain and simple, what are we

worrying about whether or not -- the same people who are trump supporters will complain no matter what unless he is completely exonerated for crimes that we all know that he committed. they're going to continue to complain. so let's just ignore it and let's hold him accountable for actual crimes that he committed. this is one of the problems that we saw also with muller, with the entire muller team. there were so many shadow investigations, fake investigations including like what they did to me. they knew that i had never been to prague but did mr. wiseleman, did moller, did anybody stop that from transferring a file down to southern district of new york to prosecute? what they did is they gave trump the opportunity to play the victim and that's the problem. we don't need donald to play the victim. we don't need to make up crimes and allegations, we know exactly what he's done wrong. and if, in fact, that they're concerned about oh, it's coming

too close to mid-terms, it could be impartial or it could be perceived that way, it could affect the 2024 election, let's put this all aside. go for the low hanging fruit. i say it all the time. go for the low hanging fruit. tax evasion. we have him. >> letitia james does. >> andrew wisele man, i want you to respond to comments about the muller investigation. >> yeah, i think the -- look, the big picture of what michael is saying i agree with, which is this is one where this idea of appointing a special counsel is really form over substance, but there are rules that govern the justice department and so it may sound very nerdy, but that -- you know, we have merrick garland, lisa monaco in the top two positions. they're going to want to make sure they're complying with the law. i don't think at the end of the day it's going to have any effect on the issue of pulling the trigger on the first issue -- the first case that i

think is going to be up at the federal level, which is the mar-a-lago documents case. i do think that if you appoint a special counsel, it's hard to see how that would not delay things. for me that is the critical reason not to do it. it's not required in my view in this situation to have a special counsel and to do it at this late date and to, thus, have more delay built in to me is doing something that would help donald trump. donald trump is going to play the victim right now and as soon as he is indicted if he is -- he's going to even play the victim even more. so we should fully expect that that's what he's going to do. >> i have -- i have a different sort of reaction to this. you know, it's not in my view a coincidence that axios today reported that he's going to announce in ten days. he's announcing because he knows in andrew's words, the nerdiness, the rule followers

would ring their hands a little more than when he's announced. >> i don't think he's going to announce. >> do you think it's there to tie doj in knots? >> no, i think he's using it as a scare tactic. you don't want to do this, right, because i'm going to be running. i'd like to see the day that it does because it stops the spigot of money that comes in from all of these unwhiting supporters of his, these maggots that are parting with their hard-earned dollars to a billionaire that is not going to run. that money can't go into his super pac. it cannot be involved in a super pac and be a presidential candidate at the same time. who he's going to turn it over to? his kids? he doesn't trust them. who else is he going to turn it over to? melania? doesn't trust her either. unless he's at the helm, he's not going to trust anybody he can keep 90 cents of every

dollar. >> from the defense funds. >> super funds. >> the big grift. >> which is a slush fund. >> i want to get you on the record on the asymmetry. in my view, in my assessment he won because it was always asymmetrical. every move was from the gutter. he prevailed from the gutter in 2016. he has stayed in the gutter tragically for the country, stayed in the gutter for the four years of his presidency, he's now instead of facing these allegations like a man, having a real legal team, he's got all of them lawyered up because he's forced them to potentially break the law. what is -- what is the conversation about him inciting more -- i mean, doj and the fbi are living under a heightened threat environment because of the court approved search of mar-a-lago where he indeed had everything they had. it was worst case scenario than they had. they thought, oh, god if he's got state secrets, the most

classified kind, we've got to go get it. some of it belongs -- the worst case scenario is always what he's done. what are your -- in your view, what is the risk of not doing anything to hold him accountable? >> well, i think it's inconceivable that he would not be. i do think, by the way, nicole -- i do think that michael makes a really good points, but i think one of the reasons he would declare here is so he can say to the justice department, let the voters decide. >> right. >> in the same way that during the impeachments he said, you know what, this is too close to an election, let the voters decide. don't hold me accountable. let the voters hold me accountable. i don't think that's going to work again. i do think the justice department that lives, by the way, with that asymmetry. when we are in the department you know that you have to play by the rules, you have to follow the rule of law and that is your

salvation, but here i think that merrick garland is keenly aware that democracy is at stake, that you have to in this situation hold him accountable. i think the good news is the mar-a-lago case is a straightforward, simple case. to me you will know, i think in fairly short order after the mid-terms, whether the department of justice is going to do its job because it's simply not a -- it's just not a long-term investigation the way that the january 6th investigation is. >> michael, i'll give you a quick last word. >> yes. listen, i agree with andrew except for the fact that i truly believe that what donald intends to do is delay, delay, delay here. that's always been his playbook. there's nothing here that is going to be quick. he doesn't allow things to be quick by filing motions and so on. and the fact that merrick garland, it's already, what, two

years in office, no indictments, no anything yet? i don't know. it's time to step it up. >> makes you nervous. andrew weissman, michael cohen, thank you so much. part 2 of my interview with whoopie goldberg. she produced and stars in the incredibly powerful film "till." it's a horrific moment that resonates for so many of us still today seven decades later. stay with us. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

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as we've been discussing in today's broadcast with anti-semitism and hate flaring. we need to take a look in the mirror, at our past, our present and with the mid-terms just days ahead, what we want our future to look like. right on cue, the searing and powerful new film "till" with the brutal kidnapping and murder of a 14-year-old boy in mississippi in 1955. emmett till's murder and the sheer brutality of it lit the fuse that became the civil rights movement but it also turned emmett till's mom, mamie

into a civil rights warrior seeking justice every day for the rest of her life. my dear friend whoopie goldberg stars in it. she helped produce this powerhouse film. we showed you some yesterday. listen to what she has to say about how this one woman, this one mom changed the course of our history. >> reporter: we see her send her boy off and then we see the most universal piece of maternal intuition. she knows something's wrong. >> yes. >> she's so tied to him. >> yeah. >> she's so tied to beau that he goes off and she -- it just doesn't sit well with her and she knows something's wrong. >> what's wrong, mamie? >> we've never been apart this long. >> he's just going to see his cousins. it's not a bad thing for him to know where he comes from. >> chicago is all he needs to

know. i don't want him seeing himself the way those people are seen down there. >> those people like me? >> even you left mississippi, mama. >> there's so many moments like that. >> yeah. >> that you want to just jump through the screen to tell her to listen to her wisdom, go get her boy. >> yeah. yeah. this is -- this happens to ordinary people. this is an ordinary family. you know, there was nothing special about them. they were just a mother and son, you know? and they were thrust into extraordinary circumstances. circumstances that none of us who have children ever want to be in, ever. >> talk about the first excruciating thing she does for her boy when she gets him back. >> well, i mean, she -- she -- when the coffin comes off that train, the sound, that's a mother's anguish. that's a mother's gut wrenching

knowledge of what's happened. >> her anguish, and it is this primal scream of a mother. >> yes. >> coffin comes off the train. and everything she does afterward puts -- changes the course of history. >> yeah. >> but there's a thing that's so today in her wanting people to see with their eyes because truth was already in a struggle with the deception and the lies of racism. >> if you think back to all the loss that we as a nation have had with the loss of race, what racism brings out and all the people we've lost and what they could have done with their lives had they lived, when you think of all the people, you know, the trayvon martins, you think of anyone who has lost their life because someone didn't think you

looked right. >> now emmett till's mom mamie passed away in 2003. shortly before her death she was asked about the gut wrenching decision to hold an open casket funeral for her son. >> well, i looked at mr. raynor and mr. raynor wanted to know was i going to have the casket opened? i said, oh, yes, we're going to open the casket. he said, well, miss bradley, do you want me to do something for the face? do you want me to try to fix it up? i said, no. let the people see what i see. i said, i want the world to see this. >> extraordinary. extraordinary woman. so the men who conducted that

interview with mamie, they willed this film "till" into being. keith beauchamp is with us and the reverend al sharpton. keith, i said this to whoopie yesterday, i'll say this to you, the film is a masterpiece. it wrecks me to watch the film and then to see mamie. just tell me your story how you came to make the movie. >> well, the movie itself has taken me 29 years, close to 20 years with fred zolo, barbara broccoli and whoopie goldberg. this is something that mother mobley was trying to do before she passed away. in fact, in 1955 or '56 she did have two movie deals but the film was never made. so throughout her 47 year of struggle, fighting to get justice for her son she had also tried to get this film made.

and so i can honestly tell you, it's quite rewarding to be able to fulfill this particular promise that was given to her before she passed away, that we would do all that we can to make sure that this story has a broader platform so the world can be awakened again by the murder and the legacy of emmett louis till. >> something i talked to whoopie about yesterday was this clarity that she has in everything that she does. her decision to go to mississippi for the trial. her decision to do what she's telling you there in the doc, have the casket open. the time when she says, leave us alone, and she's talking about her and her son in the coroner's office. she spends that time with her. she describes touching every part of him. and then she goes out and she brings the cameras in because she wants people to believe what they see with their own eyes.

how much do you feel that message is needed today, keith? >> well, i think we're seeing it today. you know, in particular the george floyd case. the young lady who had her cell phone and decided to make this courageous decision to film what she saw. that was an extension of the work of mother mobley. we is see this time and time again. we've been seeing this unfortunately recently. it's not natural for us to see death in real time, but think about this, if this young lady did not take out her phone to film what was going on with george floyd, would we have ever known of his story? so when you think about what has happened in this country and how technology has of course evolved over the years, what we're seeing today is nothing different from what we saw back in 1955 when mother mobley made

the courageous decision to allow photographers in to that coroner's office to actually take pictures of emmett till's corpse. i'm truly overwhelmed by the response we've been seeing about this film but this is what mother mobley wanted. she wanted the world awakened to the atrocities we're facing in this country today. >> rev, something whoopie and i talked about yesterday is moms don't ever want this to become their life's work. they don't ever want this to be what they're doing instead of raising their sons or daughters but in a lot of ways many moms have followed in her footsteps. you know all of them. your thoughts? >> yeah. i do know just about all of them, including the george floyd family.

i did his eulogy and led a lot of the marches. i also got to know mamie, the mother of emmett till. i was only 1 years old when it happened but through her continued involvement she came to national action network, one time to come ford the family of james bird jr. who was dragged to death in jasper, texas. i can say she totally trusted one day keith would get this out. keith was like her son. in many ways i guess he was almost like what emmett would have been. i'm so proud of him as well as whoopie for not giving up. i was able to know how important this was to her. the one thing i remember, nicole, and i've shared this with keith is, when i was a teenager and joined the movement, civil rights movement north, rosa parks said when she

sat in front of the bus a year after emmett till and they told her to get up, she said she thought about getting up but she couldn't get up. she thought about emmett till. that's how significant mamie till mobley opening that casket letting the world see what happened to her son was. it was the direct reason rosa parks didn't get up off that bus and it took all these years to thank god for a person like keith and mamie. the story is out. it didn't start with george floyd, it continues with george floyd. it started when a courageous woman opened that casket. and not when the lynching started, but starting to expose what we have to deal with and why we have to deal with racism in this country. the story can't be told without the story of mamie till mobley. >> keith, it makes me cry when

the rev says that. she thought of you like a son. >> i was very young when mother mobley was together. she was my mentor for 8 1/2 years until she took her last breath. it's a sense of fulfillment. i'm battling a lot of emotions right now. we lost a lot of the people, a lot of the witnesses for the untold story of emmett louis till that led to the reopening of the case. you have the question are you doing the right thing? are you second guessing? going through all of those emotions but one thing i know for sure is that it is very important that we continue to tell emmett's story as mother mobley would say until man's consciousness is risen. only then will it mean justice for emmett till. >> i want to play another clip for the movie. i have to sneak in a quick break. ask you to stick around. we'll all be right back.

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after farmer's dog she's a much healthier weight. she's a lot more active. and she's able to join us on our adventures. get started at longlivedogs.com . did you caution your son how to conduct himself and behave himself while he was down here in mississippi? >> several times. >> i will give you a literal description of what i told him. how coming down here, he would have to adapt himself to a different way of life, be very careful about how he spoke, and to whom he spoke, and to always remember to say yes, sir, and no, ma'am. i told him that if ever an incident should arise where there would be any trouble of

any kind with white people, that if it got to the point where he needed to go down on his knees before them, well, i told him not to hesitate to do so. like, if he bumped into somebody on the street and they might get belligerent or something. well, i told him to go ahead and humble himself so as not to get into any trouble. but -- >> but, what? >> well, i raised him with love for 14 years. my sudden warnings about hate weren't going to get through. >> that's a powerful clip from the incredible new movie, "till." we're back with keith and the rev. rev, what was watching this film like for you? you know her, you know the story. the film is -- it transports you. and even if you are familiar with it, i wonder what that was like. >> it reminded me of how we had

to be of two minds in this country. i was born and raised in brooklyn, new york, but my mother was from alabama. and we would visit her folks in alabama, we literally, as she had to do, be taught how to act down there. can you imagine the pain and humiliation of a mother having to tell their child that you have to act a certain way to accommodate people's hatred of you. and the pain it must be inside of them to have to tell their child, don't act normal. you have to accommodate other people's ugliness. and i think for them to put it in the movie is so important. for people to understand how you broke people's spirit to where they had to treat their kids a certain way to accommodate being treated in an inhumane way. that is a very, very strong and awesome burden that people had to carry. but they did.

and maimy represented it. >> what do you want people to take from the experience of watching this film? >> well, i would like people who go out and' this film is not just a movie, it's a movement. it's a movement to reconcile all the wrongs that have been done in our past when it encompasses civil rights in this country? >> look, the family are still fighting for justice for emmett. that hasn't been talked about as much as it should be. and now that, you know, there's one person who is still remaining, who can be held accountable, who are the kidnapping and murder of emmett louis till, we need to exhaust every avenue to make sure that that happens. emmett was the catalyst that sparked if american civil rig s movement, and i think he deserves a lot more than us just seeing a story on television or in the movie theaters. we have to uphold the legacy of

the late miss mobley and continue this ongoing fight that she actually started. not only with seeking justice for the lynching of our son, but of course, all the wrongs that has been done in this country. we need to expose them and they need to be corrected. >> keith beauchamp, reverend al sharpton, i hope this is a conversation we can continue over many, many months and weeks. congratulations, keith, on the film. it is exquisite. "till" is in theaters right now. on monday, we'll actually have a bit of a role reversal. i'll be joining whoopi on "the view" to talk about her new film and my new special on peacock. since i left "the view," i have never done this before. i'm a little nervous. and there's next week's big, big event, the midterm elections. lots to talk about. i hope you'll watch us on "the view" and come back and watch you here at 4:00 and at night. we'll be on all week. a quick break furs. we'll be right back. week a quick break furs we'll be right back. and twice the choice. sirloin salisbury steak and all-natural salmon.

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