for government in georgia, stacey abrams, joins me live at 10 am eastern. you definitely do not want to miss that important interview. another hour of velshi begins right now. right now. good morning, a disencumber fifth. i am ali velshi. we have three days to go until the election. right now, democrats only two independents in caucus with them have a razor-thin majority in the senate. there are 50 democrats, 50 republicans. kamala harris hold the tie breaking vote. that could all change after tuesday night. in the house, democrats have a slightly larger aid. the whole 220 seats compared to the 212 occupied by the gop. three other house seats remain

vacant at the moment. tuesday's election may offer some clarity as to where the american people are, how they are thinking ahead of the 2024 general election. this week, we are also finding out more about whether donald trump plans to run for president again. according to sources familiar with trump's thinking, the fifth former president will likely announce another bid for the white house this month. this is a move he'll but confirmed on thursday. >> the election was rigged and stolen. our country is being destroyed. iran twice, i won twice. i did much better the second time and i did the first. now, in order to make our country successful, and make it safe and glorious, i will very, very, very, probably do it again. >> i went twice, i won twice. as trump teases another bid, we know there is one republican who will try to thwart his return to the white house. that is only interest of saving

democracy in the future of her own party. since the insurrection, wyoming congressman liz cheney has put the country over party. calling out trump, the biggest lie, or on a consistent basis. that plus become anyways cheerleader anyway six select committee cost or her seat in congress. it is. not slow down or fight to stop a trumpian takeover of her party and this country. in recent weeks, cheney has campaigned in person with multiple swing state democrats. they are trying to defeat the big lie peddling opponents. those appearances on the trail might be having an impact. take a look at this. on tuesday, cheney retained nurali in east lansing michigan. it is for the incumbent congresswoman. they typically draw about 50 to 75 people at her campaign events. her event with liz cheney brought in roughly 600 supporters. it is not clear if they were republicans or democrats. there were ten times as many people as usual. congresswoman liz cheney has made it clear that if trump doesn't fact won again in 2024,

she will do, quote, whatever it takes to make sure he does not become the party's nominee. including potentially running for president herself. one option for hers to run against trump in the primaries. that will be a fools errand considering the hold he had on the party. she could also mount a bit as a third party candidate, what is sometimes known as a spoiler candidate. they tend to siphon votes from one of the major party candidates. historically, third party candidates have had little to no success in general elections. as you might recall, this guy did make some noise in the presidential race of 1992. >> if you want your car fixed, you go and get a first class mechanic. you don't get somebody selling aluminum siding. that is washington right now. that is the reason that these politics don't know what to do. >> the billionaire businessman, ross perot, he ran as an independent back in 1982. he squirrel the way 19% of the popular vote. almost 20 million votes in total. he ran against george h. w.

bush and bill clinton. it was one of the most if not the most impactful third-party bids in the last 100 years. we have seen a handful of third party candidates in the year since. nobody's come close to what ross perot accomplished. if liz cheney does choose to do the same thing and one against trump and president joe biden, she will certainly have her work cut out for her. for more on this, i am joined by michael steele. he's the former chair the republican national committee. he's also an msnbc political analyst. also what this is joe walsh. he is a former republican congressman from state of illinois. he ran against donald trump in the 2020 republican primaries. joe also host a political podcast, white flag with joe walsh. guys, thanks for being here. i appreciate it. joe, i want to have you on here. you have run for president. you ran within the party apparatus of the republican party. they did not allow anyone else to get a fair shot. they shot down primaries in some states.

you could run where you could run. running in the republican party right now against donald trump is symbolic. no one can win. >> no. the party is over. you mentioned that liz cheney, i respect liz cheney, she is fighting back against this trump takeover of her party. it has been taken over. this is trump's party. i'm a broken record. there is. no fight for the soul of the republican party. that fight was done a couple of years ago. liz cheney can't won in a republican primary. look, if trump runs, and i think he will, i don't think that any republican will challenge him. i don't dated any republican can challenge him. the final point i will make, i think that liz cheney needs to get to where people like me got in, michael steele got it a year or two ago. look, if you are against this republican party, you have to

support democrats right now. the democratic party is the only party that can stop this party. get behind a democratic nominee. >> let's just game this allowed. what is better for people, republicans or democrats of this country, they don't want to see donald trump become the president again if he declared a couple of weeks that he is running. is it what joe says? republicans supporting democrats. could it be a spoiler? could liz cheney drawn of votes away from a potential trump candidacy to stop him from being president? >> joe is right. there is no lane where you can draw that kind of support away from a donald trump. her first bit has to be through the to public and primary. if she decides to go independent, she has an infrastructure problem. the state party operations that are set up by both democrats

and republicans are not designed to allow for you to have a third lane. they don't want you to be in the race. the state election rules to get on the ballot. there is a number of candidates you need, the amount of money you need to spend. it is wildly different. it is setting up 50 different state operations just to get on the ballot. and then you have to run those campaigns. liz, i think there's a lot of chatter about her running. i have not spoken to anyone about this. i think that she may realize it her superpower does not money lane a presidential politics. she is doing what she is doing now. she is holding up the torch of democracy for those to follow. wrapping it around, shedding the light, in putting the light on candidate to support democracy. whether they are democrats, independents, et cetera. that is gonna be the sweet

spot. joe is right. this party is in love with donald trump. >> they can't help themselves. they have been consumed by him. they continue to consume him. how do you break that? who does the? who is the candidate? ron desantis is thinking in florida. yeah, i got there. is that because he hears a few folks out there saying that they like ron better than don. that is not how that is going to play out. when donald trump makes that announcement, when trump make that announcement, he says it is very probable. he will do it. what do you think happens? everyone's gonna rally. things get locked in. they would rig the rules to protect him. >> yes. you bears herbal pouring water on my party here about liz cheney. i understand one thing. michael steele says the game hears for their training to go out and support democratic candidates. that is your superpower. here's the thing that you know more about, you to a

republicans. michael is what we used to call a low moderate republican. joe, you were a little bit less of a moderate republican. it is a bigger bite for theirs cheney to go campaign for democrats than it is for -- and michael steele would be. here is my issue, she goes out to east lansing to campaign for alyssa -- ten times they might've people come out -- who are those people? they like the power that liz cheney brings? what does the organized version of this look like in 2024? these are people who are going out there in republicans to support democrats. >> elie, this has been the toughest three or four years of my life. look, you were very generous. thank you. i am a crazy tea party conservative. my friend is a good traditional conservative republican. my god, i am in a position for

these three or four years. i have to do everything that i can to help democrats get elected. that is tough. you know where i am philosophically. look, this is where we are in this moment in time. we have one political party that is in existential threat to our democracy. you want to stop that political party. i am sorry. have to roll up your sleeves and work with the other political party. even if we don't agree with them. i think that conservatives are going to be in this position for sometime. >> yes. >> michael, tell me or the ads. >> yes, i think that joe judge nailed. it heated. that is exactly the space that both was landers of the. and look, joe and i were fighting the good fight in 2010. we were setting up an opportunity for a conservative government majority.

that is now over. what we see now is a massively warped understanding of what democracy is, what governing principles are. we are talking about a party that is not even have a platform. what are they saying to the country? what are they saying they're about? we will just wait and see. give us that power. i cannot emphasize enough what joe, is, and others are out there doing. it is hard for conservatives to philosophically make that leap. it is not hard when you do it for democracy. this is about biden's policy on the environment. this is about agreeing with him. >> i get it. that we like these people who have done that. i'll put my ideological issue to the side. we'll get back to it. let's get back to. it what does that look like? donald trump does not win in 2024 because some republican support democrats. when does it end? do you ever get your party

party back? >> i don't think so. i am going to give you the bad answer. i don't think it ever ends. i wish i were 30 years old. i could be in this fight. maybe that would happen in my lifetime. no, i think that party is gone. there are not enough of us conservatives to form another party right now. maybe one day. that day is far off. i have to suck it up. that is fine. as michael said, i will serve democracy. there is no philosophical home for us right now. i have accepted that. >> i am not a republican, and i'm not a conservative. you too are making me very sad. we are having an important discussion. i appreciate it. i love it. i am so grateful that you can have these conversations. that is michael steele, the former chairman. he is a political analyst. i'm also with joe walsh, the host of white flag with joe walsh. we have just days to go until the 2020 midterms.

we are going to wisconsin. it is a state that is voted blue in every single election since 1976. red tide could be coming. even if the vote didn't work out that way. ron johnson told shaquille that he is not quite sure he can commit to accepting the election result. we talk to him next. there is more in about. this is farther from home. a growing number of candidates may be in opposition of so called blank check support. we are not taking a look at one single book, we're looking at the insidious trend as a whole. most crucially, who is behind this? we are joined with an expert take -- this is velshi. this is velshi efficiency-right now. allow monitoring of productivity at remote job sites, with next-generation bandwidth. enable ai cameras that spot factory issues in real time, using next-generation speed. and deliver ultra-capacity 5g coverage that's years ahead of the competition.

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people of once collinson. wisconsin did vote for donald trump in 2016. they also voted for donald raegan twice. joe biden flip the state back in 2020. early voting is well underway in the state. more than 300,000 people have already cast ballots their head of election day. there are multiple important races where wisconsin is focusing. one of the most pivotal is gonna be the election for the u.s. senate. the states current government governor, mandela barnes, he's facing off against the republican ron johnson. as of this morning, they rated that race as the leading

republican. in a recent rule for marquette university, it shows that the pair isn't a statistical tie among likely voters. the outcome may not even matter. senator johnson would not say for certain whether he would accept a fist halt the election when he was asked by my colleague. >> will you exactly accept the results of tuesday's election? >> we have, in place, our observers. the whole purpose is to restore confidence in the election system. i sure hope that i can. but i can't predict what the democrats might have planned. >> with more on the key state, we are joined live from the waukesha. , who played that interview from you and senator johnson last hour. i want to play for you at mandela barnes said about that. >> he is the biggest hypocrite out there. i mean, this is the person who tried to overturn a free and fair election. he has participated in the stabilizing our election integrity. it is very rich coming from a

person who try to ultimately change the course of this country because he did not get the election result that he wanted. >> this is weird. you covered elections before. we don't cover election. what people say, what polls say, we want to know whether people will result accept the results. we want to know what they will do after the election. >> yeah. it is definitely notable that days ahead of the election there are candidates that are casting doubt. they're questioning the validity of those election results. let me put some context to that comment from ron johnson. you heard biden this week. he talked about it not just being about this election. he added that democracy is on the ballot. senator johnson is one that he mentioned. he has observers that he has recruited in the republican party in wisconsin. he has a website that he has set up for his supporters to report voting violations. in light of all of that, i was asking if he would accept the results of the election.

you saw him not directly answer that. he essentially gave the answer, it depends. we are not just seeing this in the senate race. you are also seeing is in the other election as well. that races in a dead heat. it is tied in the latest market university poll. tim michaels, he said that if republicans win in this election, they will never lose another election in the state of wisconsin. . yesterday, i did ask him to clarify those comments. he said that he was talking about policy. he was saying that if republicans pass the policies they want to pass, in his words, their state will never look back. his opponents, democrat tony -- the governor of the state, he ran an ad. it was likely the last campaign out of this cycle. he was using those comments. he said his republican opponent wants to rig the election. it is really interesting. voters talk about inflation, abortion, they talk about crime in wisconsin. those are key issues in this

election. you are really seeing this issue of democracy and the sanctity of our elections come up time and time again from these candidates. >> reporting as always, thank you. it is good to see you. live from milwaukee, wisconsin. coming up next, a growing chorus of republican midterm candidates are now opposing future support of ukraine as they continue to fight off a an invasion from russia. why? the answer might surprise you. later, major uptick in book banning across the nation's no coincident. it is a campaign. it is a religious right rallying cry. we have a special edition of the velshi banned book club. anned book club. wrinkle guard penetrates deep into fibers, leaving clothes so soft, wrinkles don't want to stick around. make mornings smoother with downy wrinkle guard fabric softener. they say you eat with your eyes first, so here's a good look at our new thick n fluffy french toast. artisan challah dipped in vanilla cinnamon batter. french toast the way it's meant to be. try all three flavors. only at ihop.

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ask your healthcare provider right away i'll pick this one up. i earn 3% cash back on dining including takeout with chase freedom unlimited. so, it's not a problem at all. you guys aren't gonna give me the fake bill fight? c'mon, kev. you're earning 3% cash back. humor me. where is my wallet? i am paying. where is my wallet? i thought i gave it to you. oooohhh? oh, that's not it either. no. no. stop, i insist. that was good though. earn big time with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. there's something else at stake on tuesday's midterm elections, and i don't about you might not be expecting. a growing chorus in the republican party has been tying america's support to ukraine to

the outcome of the election. the remains a large contingent in the party that not only supports americas backing for ukraine against that invasion, but believes the u.s. should actually be doing more. the house minority leader, kevin mccarthy, he is not one of them. the house minority leader backs america support. he says that if republican women, it will not be a free blank check. blake masters, the republican senate nominee in arizona, he has not only been endorsed by donald trump, but by chuck norris as well, the tough guy, here's what he had to say on the topic of ukraine during a rally on thursday. >> [inaudible] >> are you guys getting tired of the government sending ukraine billions of dollars every few weeks? why can they find 50 billion to secure ukraine's border with russia but they can't find ten billion to secure our own border with mexico? also, i worry that biden is

just sleepwalking, stumbling, he's like a zombie, he's stumbling us closer to nuclear war. guess what you didn't have to worry about under president trump, nuclear war. >> did he just say that? tomorrow i'm gonna do a deep dive into something called gaslighting. here's a little preview. first off, the united states has committed almost 19 billion dollars to ukraine under president biden. 21 billion dollars in total since russia's 2014 invasion. that is far left and the 50 billion dollars that masters just made up. secondly, because he is gaslighting, his idol, donald trump, he threatened the nuclear annihilation and multiple countries on multiple occasions. this screen covers some of the north korea nuclear threats. he also reportedly had to be prevented from misusing nuclear weapons from top officials on multiple occasions. he withdrew the united states from the 1987 nuclear force treaty. it prevented the u.s. and russia from creating stockpiles

of intermediate range ballistic and cruise missiles and nuclear weapons. back in march, donald trump said during a interview on fox news if he were still president he would react to russia's action in ukraine by threatening nuclear war with russia. speaking of the twice impeached ex president, he spoke in iowa earlier this week along that one of his favorite followers. here's what she had to say about ukraine. >> democrats have raped our border wide open. the only border they care about is ukraine. not america's southern border. on under publications, not another penny will go to ukraine. our country comes first. they don't care about our border, our people. >> all right, joining me now is the retired colonel. he might be in shock.

he is the senior adviser to vote. -- he was the official who blew the whistle on former president -- [inaudible]

the story on ukraine, the animosity towards ukraine goes earlier. he took a deep dislike ukraine.

there is the importance of nato. we also talked about the fact that since the cold war that americans have stop worrying about it. they don't think about it. donald trump undermined nato. there is the idea that it exists to prevent expansionist countries like russia from invading our allies. we have mutual defense agreements. that is the whole point here. ukraine is an ally, it is not an nato member, but it is an ally. russia's expansionist. even if you don't think we

should be spending too much money on foreign affairs, there is actually an interest for america and democracy in being in ukraine. >> absolutely. the simple proposition here is that every russia's excess fluid in the ukraine, russia's aspirations don't and there. they continue to moldova, another small neighbor of ukraine, a former soviet republic. they will continue on to other potential aspirations over the baltics that were part of the soviet union at one point. they are not members of nato. that becomes a higher probability. russians are not going to attack nato. but it becomes a higher probability scenario. same thing for china and taiwan. we do have firm obligation to support taiwan. we would enter a much more dangerous world. it is a very economical for us to support ukraine. we need to expand support. rather than to foot a war with one of the great military powers. it is not a great power and in some ways. but as a military power, it still has a massive nuclear

arsenal. -- >> starting with vladimir putin, when he hears this, when he sees this happening, -- the pinkham how the election goes, kevin mccarthy could be the next speaker of the house. he could actually wield some influence over this. how does iran look at this? how does north korea look like this? how does china look at this? they are all looking. you are not as closely aligned as we thought we were on the offensive countries that are elevated by other people. >> it is quite shocking that putin has allies in the republican party. the republican party, again, not fringe elements of it, this includes mainstream that you pointed out. potentially becoming a future speaker of the house. i don't believe it is going to happen. that is a lifeline to vladimir putin. that is a way for him to snatch

victory from the job to defeat. what he could not achieve on the battlefield, he believes that he could try to secure it through diplomacy and pressure on ukraine. that is the lifeline, that is the promise -- republican party, the party of lincoln, and it is now the party of putin. >> it is remarkable. after nine months of this in ukraine, after the setbacks that vladimir putin has had, there was the midterm elections of the united states might actually be the lifeline for him in the ukraine. good to see you again. thank you as always. that is the retired -- he's the former director of european affairs at the national security council. he is author of a book. here, right matters. an american story. coming up, a comic -- a democrat and republican are running a close race for the senate in north carolina. they have history on their side, the republicans do.

they have had a seat since 2006. it could be anybody's game. we are live from winston-salem after the break. after the break. free monsters, free bosses, any footlong for free! this guy loves a great offer. so let's see some hustle! let's dive in! but what about your back? it's fineeeeeeee! ugh! advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action. (vo) a thin painted line. the only thing between you and a life-changing accident. but are these lines enough? a subaru with eyesight... (kid vo) hey dad! (vo) ...watches the lines for any danger... and can automatically stop itself. (mom) is everyone ok? (kid) i'm ok. (vo) your family is safer in a three-row subaru ascent.

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healthier happens together. aetna. a cvs health company. this speaks disturbing reports of voter intimidation or emerging out of north carolina. that is where early voting ends today. according to a reuters report published yesterday, state officials have registered 14 cases of potential intimidation or interference with poll workers or voters. those attempts to discourage voters to come as the senate raisin with carolina has drawn unexpectedly close, the democrat and congressman ted budd are vying for one of the state senate seats. it is currently vacant. winning is gonna be tough for beasley. democrats have only won two senate races in the last 30 years. joining me now is a reporter live in winston-salem, north carolina. it is great to see you back on

the show. you recently spoke with republican nominee, the congressman, ted budd. what did he have to say ahead of election day? >> right now, congressman is really focused on inflation and the economy. those the issues that republicans believe already winning issues for them when it comes to voters here. when i talk to people consistently, it is a inflation in the economy, it is abortion. what he is doing right now, literally right now, he is out knocking on doors. he is trying to get people to participate in the early voting. he wants to make sure they show up on tuesday. i was with him in the western part of the state. this is a friendly area. there are a lot of rural counties. it was plus 36 for trump. you know, friendly. he was talking to people in many cases. he was voting for them. he tried to remind them to get friends and families who had been on the sidelines through the midterms. as you mentioned, there is rate has been closer than republicans thought it was going to be. he is not taking anything for granted. with abortion as the second

issue, it is a winning issue for his opponent. he really has not been able to -- take a listen to the conversation that i had. >> what about abortion restrictions? this is the number two questions i get. what would the policy restriction looks like? that is for you. the two of you will be working together. >> this is what not what people here talking about. >> i talk to them about women's access to abortion all the time. >> we are talking about how extreme they are. this is what democrats want. they want abortion at anytime for any reason. it is all the way up until the moment of birth. they want that at the taxpayer expense. that is wildly out of step in north carolina. >> congressman has been staunchly anti abortion. he has consistently said he will be pro-life elected the senator. it has been hard at times. even in the one debate that he did with his opponent. it's been hard to get him to articulate what he would like abortion policy to look like in

north carolina or around the country. because the talks about is when she talked to voters all over the state. whether it is in the urban senators, where democrats get their numbers up, or when she travels to rural communities. she has talked to women of all ages. she has talked to young people. they are gonna play a major role in this place and in parts of the suburbs outside of the -- there are new voters, people in the state that we don't know about. they are trying to reach those votes. >> we are talking a beasley this afternoon. thank you very much. tony hilton is live from winston-salem, north carolina. still ahead, today's meeting of the banned book club's gonna be different. we're not taking a look at a single band book. we're taking a look at the movement a book banning as a whole. it is actively a movement. it is an organized one. a 10 am, i am joined by the georgia hopeful, stacey abrams. many say that she is entering his race as an underdog. don't miss my conversation. -- nversation --

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conservative christians demanded the removal of 400 bucks. most of which have lgbtq+ teams are characters. and a board meeting, the group asked them to judge the books, quote, standards, not the world standards. in michigan, there was a removal of seven books. including the book called all boys on opposite. it spurred an all out campaign event for midterm hopefuls. more public schools in virginia beach have pulled this book by 20 more sun off their shelves. missouri have done the same with this memoir, fun home by allison back dale. this was introduced in the oklahoma state senate. it prohibits books on general identity from public schools. as velshi book club members

know, there are these angry school board meeting. they're not only commonplace, they have become expected. according to the american library association, more titles have been targeted for bans are injections in 2022 than in all of 2021. it is not just a frequency it has changed in the past year or so. it is a tablet tactics. -- there are a few concern parents. it is an organized campaign. there is the campaign to the kid to the freedom to write and re-. they're at least 50 groups working at the local, state, and national level. there is removal of certain titles from the syllabus and libraries. many of these groups expose fundamental religious ideology. you might not be surprised to hear that the christian analysts groups have champion bans on lgbtq books. there's also a subset of conservative muslim groups that have fought to ban books in some cities like in dearborn, michigan. debra cobblestone, the director of the american library

association's office for intellectual freedom says, quote, we are seeing organized groups go to school boards in library boards and demand actual censorship of these books in order to confirm their moral and political views. and quote. okay, right after the break, i am going to do the entity fundamentalists aspect of a book bending with raz aucilla, a preeminent expert on world religion. there is the friend of the banned book club, eddie god. he is a professor at -- university. university oral treatments can be taken at home and must be taken within 5 days from when symptoms first appear. if you have symptoms of covid-19, even if they are mild, don't wait, get tested quickly. if you test positive and are at high risk of severe disease, act fast. ask if an oral treatment is right for you. covid-19 moves fast, and now you can too. i'd like to thank our sponsor liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. contestants ready? go!

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-- he is confronting religious extremism in the age of globalism. i'm also with the msnbc contributor. this was the first guy had on to talk about the book club. welcome to both of you. it is good to see you both. anyways, every single one of our authors has come in here and said they make a distinction between parents who, in good faith, are concerned about the things that their kids are learning in school, about which they do not know that much. whether it is black history, lgbtq teams, transgender issues. there are also organized boycotts of books. there is good faith and bad faith concern. it comes as no surprise to you that this is a much more organized thing, book banning. it is not random. it is not generally made up of good faith concerns by these

parents. >> right. it is our distinguish meant that matters. there are those who are engaged in the good faith effort to understand what their children are learning. you also have moms for liberty, no left turn and education. you can see a concerted effort on the part of those on the right. it is a long-standing effort. go back to the decision in the supreme court of 1982. go before that. there is the cultural revolution of the mid-century. in some ways, it has everything mean -- we need to understand that for what it is. >> rezza, give me your thoughts on this. i was in michigan a couple of weeks ago. it was after this raucous meeting in dearborn. i don't know why it surprised me, but i was surprised to see religious muslims involved in this whole thing. that had been an active effort from deeply religious christians, fundamentalist christian. they are recruiting muslims. >> homophobia has long

connected conservative religious groups who are otherwise traditionally in conflict with each other. in fact, i think, you know, conservative christians and conservative muslims have far more common with each other than either group would actually like to admit. what is really fascinating here is that the conservative, white, evangelical movement to ban both that they see is violating their particular idea a public morality has given cover to some of these conservative muslim groups. they would otherwise be afraid to come out and express themselves in this way. they are so often tag is on american. they are told that their views are in opposition to american values. when you have, you know, white conservative christians who see themselves as the paragon of american identity standing next

to you, it kind of gives you the freedom to express some of these draconian views. there are these views that really do go against our contemporary ideas of what public morality in this country is supposed to be. >> this is an interesting distinction. in dearborn, that is where they went. they went to the homophobia side of things. oftentimes, these book bans target black history. how does this work in the black community? there are strings of conservatives and the two have echoes of homophobia. could these barbs be going after people coming out of church on sunday? hey, you need to stop your kids from reading this. >> sure. sure. i am sure. look, i think that the conservative positions, the religious commitments run across different books. -- >> we don't want those committed to religious views, those who are committed to liberal values.

that produces all sorts of troublesome distinctions between secularism and religion. these are problems that we have to keep at bay. what we have here on those two whole particular religious commitments, they're trying to make those commitments universal within a particular communities. what we need for those who hold different religious commitments in those same traditions, they need to make arguments. the mayor of dearborn's muslim. he disagrees with his colleagues in this regard. we don't need to make the distinction between liberal and religious values. we need a broad bait across the range of folks who have different commitments. >> this is why i invited the two of. you understand these distinctions. you clarify them. we don't end up painting anyone with the same brush. you wrote an open letter to american muslims on the issue of same-sex marriage. you said that the muslims are already a deeply marginalized people in mainstream american culture. they should not be perpetuating their marginalization by marginalizing others. rejecting the right to same sex

marriage, but then expecting empathy for our community's struggle is hypocritical. and quote. some degree, you are making a similar point to eddie. that means that you don't have to agree with something else to not want to marginalize somebody for it. >> yeah. look, our argument is that the constitutional freedoms that we enjoy are an all or nothing business. right? that is the same constitution that protects the rights of lgbtq people. it protects your right to warship god how you wish in this country. you can't have one without the other. again, yes, of course. if you have deeply held religious belief that make you feel as though certain lifestyles or identities are against your particular faith and tradition, that is fine. you can feel free to feel those things. that is what makes this country so great. trying to take away rights from another marginalized community will always end up just

perpetuating your own marginalization. >> eddie, what do people need to know and they show up at a school board meeting and they are hearing this vitriolic and anger? does it matter that they know that this might be organized from afar? it might be, you know, orchestrated as opposed to organic? >> absolutely. i mean, look, we know that white evangelical christians have a louder voice than their numbers. we know this. oftentimes, the people who are shouting the loudest are actually thought of as representing the entirety of the group. no. we need to understand this in some instances. it is a conservative, organized effort to tilt -- we are turn change the direction. we need to fight for the values that we are committed to. we need to fight for the world that we are committed to. we need to act accordingly. >> raja, how do you -- how do you fight back against this?

how do you articulate what you energy articulating? that is when it comes to people who go here -- you do not have to hold of you. we can be okay. we're talking about the librarian access to books. it is not the same thing. it is actually kind of different for the curriculum. >> eddie said it best. the way that you defeat religious themes and homophobia is with religiously inspired love. the way that you defeat religiously inspired violence is with religiously inspired piece. what people need to understand is that people of faith don't sonoma to derive their values from their scriptures as they insert their values into their scriptures. people can go to the same scripture and walk away with radically different views. they are not saying much about why you should support these movements or ideas.

it tends to fall flat. they are not coming from the same world that a lot of these points are coming from. in this case, the good news is that we have an overwhelming the divers voice of religious liberalism and progressive-ism in this country. those are the people who need to be activated to fight back against these dangerous gaiety is about banning books, banning ideas. >> you guys are brought a lot of nuance to this conversation. i appreciated. thank you. eddie is the chair of the african american studies department at princeton university. reza is the author of the book beyond fundamentalism, confronting religious extremism in the age of globalism. we have another packed hour coming up. we are heading down to georgia. that is where brian camp and stacey abrams are facing off once again. four years ago, abrams lost by fewer than 55,000 votes out of 4 million. this is shaping up to be a tight race. stacey abrams joins me in just a few moments. she discusses her race and