fraudulent, and not really worth having, and not a good way to choose leaders. so when the party and the institutions get together in the service of propaganda and corruption points like that, that's what a strongman needs. that's how you transform age democracy into an autocracy. >> i will take both of your stark warnings and michaels optimism with me into election week. michael beschloss, ruth ben-ghiat, thank you as always. that's all the time i have tonight. i'm alicia menendez, i'm gonna hand it over now to my colleague, ayman wilkie dean. hi amen. a, alicia, i was going to, saying a better person than i am if you go into this week with a little bit of optimism. i just saw this post from blake masters in arizona, posting a picture of himself with a rifle. >> i've seen that photo. >> locked and loaded with four days to go. >> i borrowed my optimism from michael bachelor, so he may

have enough to go around if you need a. dose >> hopefully so, i take anything i can get these days. it's good to see you my friend, enjoy the rest of your evening. good evening to you, welcome to ayman tonight. fighting to save our democracy, we're bringing you special midterm coverage with for secretary of state on the front lines of that fight. plus, new immersive team by the january six committee review and election subversion plan that goes all the way to the u.s. supreme court. and biden and obama hit the campaign trail, hear the closing arguments to voters in the final days of this election. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> so the first polls close in less than 72 hours, when 39 million early ballots had already been cast, and here is president obama in just a short time ago in philadelphia. >> fundamental rights are on

the bout. truth and facts and logic and reason and basic decency are on the bout. democracy itself is on the bout. the stakes are high. [applause] >> election officials in swing states like nevada, georgia, pennsylvania and arizona are making clear that they are confident that they can get the job done. but, they are facing major challenges. there are heightened levels of threats growing intimidation tactics, election related lawsuits and a large number of republican candidates who are refusing to accept the election results. according to axios, election deniers are signing on as poll watchers in places like colorado and pennsylvania. the new york times reports that at least three dozen lawyers and law firms who advance trump's big lie are now working for republicans in the midterms. just this week, we learned that clara mitchell, the former trump attorney who fought to overturn the 2020 election

results, told election groups in michigan that her vision ahead of election day is, quote, hand-to-hand combat with the left. now even before tuesday, there have been unprecedented efforts to disrupt the vote. many more than any election in recent memory. you can safely say, we just don't know what is going to happen on tuesday. we are going to try to make sense of where we are right now with the help of secretary of state from across the nation. joining us now are colorado state secretary of state and chair of the democratic association of secretaries of state, jena griswold, minnesota secretary of state steve simon, new mexico secretary of state maggie oliver and california's secretary of state shirley weber. it's good to have you all with us. secretary jena griswold, i'd like to start with you. as the chair of the democratic association of secretary of state, talk to me about these conspiracy fueled threats. how concerned are you? and how are you and others

fighting back in this critical juncture? >> first off, ayman, thank you so much for having us on. it means so much the americans are so focused on elections and democracy. honestly, talking about optimism versus pessimism, i am optimistic that we will have a great election here in colorado and across the country. that does not mean that the challenges are not new. we have been living under the worst attack on the right to vote in recent times. we are seeing coordinated efforts to suppress the vote, intimidate voters, in an unfashionable way. we just have not seen recently. but with that said, the secretaries of states with us tonight and across the nation are standing up for american voters, are standing up for elections, and every american voter in this country should make their voices heard and believe, you will be able to do so in free, fair and safe elections. >> secretary simon, your

opponent is undoubtedly 2020 election denier. she said in a press conference in october, quote, minnesota laws were not followed. how are you combatting that to your constituents and to the votes that you're trying to win? >> well, i want to put things into perspective. in minnesota, joe biden won the election by 230,000 votes. this is not close. yet my opponent and others who follow her said that we'll never know who want to stay. that is absurd, it's ridiculous. it's hard to know how to respond to that other than saying that some folks have been misled, and to always try to lead with the truth. i think that's what -- is lead with the truth in confronting some of that disinformation. by the way, -- and neither our viewers. just pleading with the truth and say what the truth is is not going to make lies for the people that peddled them go away. not everyone will do it one 80,

but they might do a 22. they might do a 37. they might do a 46, and overtime, that could have an effect. >> secretary toulouse oliver, your opponent is part of the america first sos coalition, which is a national alliance of election denying secretary of state candidates that was created by the trump endorsed candidate in nevada, jim marchant. what do you make of that, that you can actually have a coalition of election deniers running on tickets in very critical positions? it's not just about what they do in this election, it's about if they do win, what they will do in future elections? >> well, it's absurd, but it's not only absurd, it's scary. i think fortunately, all races are looking good in many of these states, with a lot of election deniers on about, but it's a very real possibility that we will see one or some of these folks elected, and what that means is that there will be people serving in office who are supposed to be fair and

nonpartisan, not impartial arbiters of our election process, who are going to be in the office for the purpose of during an election and subverting the world to people. so this is very concerning, and folks at all of our states that have these america first or any election denier candidate need to get out and vote and vote as if their vote depends on it because it is a good real fact of the matter. >> secretary weber, from a purely technical perspective, you run elections in the most populous states in our union. how are you reassuring voters that this election will be free and fair? what is keeping you up at night? >> we worry about all the things that everyone worries about because even though we are a really strong democratic state, and we don't have the deniers running for office in great numbers and probably will have none of them to win tuesday because of california's strong position on voting

rights. but we also know that there are ways in which you can frustrate voters, you can intimidate them, you can keep them from coming to the polls by doing various things at the polls itself, and so we've gotten together with our attorney general, with the fbi and everyone else, and we said the people honestly, that we're protecting our workers, protecting those who come to vote. we will not tolerate anything happening to any individual, and that they are safe coming into our polls. so we have made legislation to protect them, so that we know that if we give just an inch of something with regard to the, that opens the floodgates for things to happen. california should be the example of how people will be treated when they come to vote, and how are going to honor every vote that is their. we have been very fair with democrats and republicans in terms of those on the ballot. i wrote sometimes against troops that i know. the governor and others, to

make sure that they follow all the rules and regulations, so we're very transparent about what we do. what we won't tolerate any of the things that have been across the nation, and we have been flooded -- our attorney general, as well as the attorneys in my office have been flooded with lawsuits, frivolous lawsuits, none of them proven to be true, just consuming our time and energy and frustration in the process, but we continue to fight, and we believe that we will have to fight, and california has the resources and position to be able to fight and to support our friends and colleagues in the all states. >> secretary, griswold, what is your advice to voters that are being intimidated at the polls? what should folks be doing if they see what is happening, as allegations have been made in arizona? >> first of, we have a zero tolerance policy for any type of intimidation, so no colorado, no american should feel intimidated and casting their

belt. here in colorado, it's against a law, it's also against federal law. if you have any concerns, contact the doj, contact little law forsman, your secretary of state. but more than just that, we cannot allow darts of intimidation, fear to chill the vote. that is part of the attack on democracy itself. it's the vitriol. on top of some of the reports we're seeing at the polls, the use of threats and scare tactics have been turned towards election workers also. that's why, ayman, i let a series of new laws in the state of colorado, it's not a crime to dr. rhea tallied in election worker. we made it a felony to compromise voting equipment. we made it a crime to open carry close to a drop box or voting center, or where they process votes, to make sure our state laws are tight and to make sure that every eligible voter, regardless of the color of their skin, their zip code or the amount of money in the bank account has access to different guys. >> secretaries, please stick

around, we have a lot more to discuss after the break. we'll discuss the very real possibility of election deniers winning the races next week and what it means for democracy, stay with us. stay with us and twice the choice. sirloin salisbury steak and all-natural salmon. perfect for lunch or dinner. only at ihop. download the app and earn free food with every purchase. trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power to treat copd... ...in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler,... ...trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler... ...for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition

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i love san francisco, but i'm working overtime to stay here. now is not the time to raise taxes. i'm voting no on propositions m and o, because the cost of everything is going up. san francisco collects more tax revenue than nearly any city in america. but our streets are dirty and public safety is not getting better. i'm working hard to live within my budget. the city should too. join me in voting no on m and o.

now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o. the bout. this is a defining moment for the nation, and we all must speak with one voice regardless of our party. there is no place in america for political violence, no

place, no place for what we saw happen to pop pelosi, a friend of mine and aunties has been. no place for voter intimidation. >> just last week, republican nominees for secretary of state in swing states, march finchem of arizona, jim marchant of nevada and christina karim of michigan, attended a conference in florida, led by 2020 analysis, a courting to walter jones. the nonpartisan group protect the mark receive found 67% of all republican nominees for governor, secretary of state, attorney general, senate and the house, have i did denied or raised doubts about the validity of the 2020 presidential election. at this point, we all know how georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger stood up to trump's pressure for him to, quote, find votes. but here is my question, what would have happened if he said yes? we might find the answers out

sooner than we like, and that is a scary thought. secretaries of state are back with me. secretary griswold, let me start with you quickly on this one, there are six election deniers running for secretary state across the country, could we see the crumbling of our democracy if they win these positions? >> well, unfortunately, there is more than that. we have election deniers running in many states across this nation. they're running in places like arizona, nevada, michigan, minnesota, new mexico and other states. to be very clear, my job as secretary of state is to make sure that every eligible voter, republican, democrat or -- has their voice heard and free and fair elections. that's why the last four years, i think we struck boxes by 55% and more in person voting. policies that don't have one party over the other, lead to some voters. but the risk with these election deniers is that they will be charged with overseeing the nations free and fair elections, when they don't believe in free and fair

elections. what we could expect from them is making it harder for americans to cast a ballot in free and fair elections, refusing to address security breaches, being more beholden to mar-a-lago and conspiracies then upholding the will of the people. it is an absolute danger to american democracy and frankly to this entire country. >> secretary simon, your republican opponents, kim crockett, has said that mail-in ballots through the u.s. postal service, basic blue u.s. postal service, collection boxes, could lead to identity death. i want to give you a chance to respond to that. how do you fight this type of misinformation? >> yeah, it's hard because i am running against someone who decreasing lee relies on ever more bizarre conspiracy theories. this is the second time that she, in particular, has talked about the post office. the first time as when she said that postal workers themselves should not be trusted to handle ballots because they belong to unions. now, she says, recently, in a

statement that was reviewed by the u.s. postal service that somehow it's unfair to use the mail this in about. again, you're going to see these superspreaders of disinformation like my opponent and many of the opponents in these races, but you have to speak the truth to the people might be listening. that's what i tried to do. that's what others have tried to do. because we can argue and should argue all day long about what our election system should look like. that's fair game, that's democracy, that's honest abate, but we have to come together around the facts around the current system and what is, never mind what a. to be, but what it is. and increasingly, we have people for political purposes, not just in minnesota but national figures, who are using and manipulating ideas about our election system with tragic results. at the most extreme, we're talking about january 6th style violence and upheaval. >> secretary toulouse oliver, i want to talk about the workers in your state. you've expressed worry about

county clerks in new mexico now running for reelection because they have faced criticism and scrutiny by republican officials in the public -- , and in some cases -- , potential -- threats -- . -- what is your office doing to protect county clerks and election workers from the harassment? >> first of all, ayman, this is unprecedented. i think we all set it, but let's say it again. what we are living through right now as election ministers, it just hasn't been seen before except for in the run up to 2020. i have been an election administrator in my state for almost 16 years. we have never had these issues to do it, so what we have done in my office, and what i know many of my colleagues are doing, first of all, we're partnering closely with our federal law enforcement partners, the fbi, and department of justice. in my state, we're also working closely with the state police and local law enforcement.

we're reporting any threats immediately. we're responding and having law enforcement officials in my state respond very quickly to deal with them. election workers in my state, county clerks, poll workers, staff, should feel safe, and that their secretary of state and their law enforcement, either at the federal or state level have their backs. but the reality is we should not have to be living through this. this is not how a democracy works. this is not how our country has worked for the past 246 years, except for maybe the last two, and it should not be tolerated. >> secretary weber, earlier this year, you cowrote an opinion piece would joscelyn benson, in which you both right in part, indeed, the american voter is the only one who can save our democracy from those seeking to serve as election officials, secretaries of state and attorney general, who would be poised and empowered to overturn elections i will. talk to us about what is at

stake as we approach this midterm election, expand on that for us. >> this country is at stake. i think sometimes, we have been very comfortable in being in this country because we have never had to fear what is happening with our elections. i've been in other countries where people are nervous every time there is an election. they get really nervous in kenya. they get really nervous in zimbabwe, and i've seen where they have president of zimbabwe, he decided he did not like the results of the election and had election after election until they got the results they wanted. we've had the luxury in many ways or system, surely, that as ensured and easy and smooth transition to power. we would often bragged about that, the fact that, yes, we have differences, we have different ideologies, but we all believe in one vote, one person. we all believe that every vote should count. and when you start messing with that, then you really are

undermining the democracy that you have come to know. people may not initially see it, but if you travel just a little bit, you'll see it. and if u.s. force from other countries who come here for that reason, they will tell you that this is precious, more precious than anything else you can imagine, and my parents lived through the jim crow south. as a result of that, they were sharecroppers, and they had no rights because they couldn't look the vote. i began prince never got a chance to vote in the country. did that before 1965, so their life was always in peril, always concern, they had no voice and even if they tried to vote, they would either be intimidated, or their bout would be taken and torn up in front of their face. these are the kinds of things that people see that the government sanctioned in many ways, and those who are running the polls and elections during those periods felt cuttable doing it. so once you create that environment, and we are constable and denying you you're right, we've done

unravel everything that has been built in this country. this country relies on the fact that -- i have the largest populous state in the nation, 22 million registered voters right now. yet i get one vote. that's all i have is one vote. that's the democracy, and when you tamper with that, you really destroy all the stuff that folks have fought for, and you undermine the ability to self direct and self determine your own life, and it happens rather quickly, and it happens fast. these are the kinds of things that people have to know about. we have been running town halls throughout the state in my office to help people understand what people fought for in the voting rights act of 1965, not just a law that says you can vote but to make sure that they were -- where you could go voting, you wouldn't be intimidated, and your family would not be harassed. those are the kinds of things that people fall for the voting rights act of 1965. you don't want to go back to that time, i can tell you up. we will be there again because it is not the america that we

spent years fighting for. >> and when we come back, we'll talk about something that secretary weber just talked about, denying the right to vote. secretary's, please stick around. coming up, how new restrictions could affect you at the ballot box. t the ballot box. r what you need. and by switching, you could even save $652. thank you, liberty mutual. now, contestants ready? go! why? why? only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ among my patients, i often see them have teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. laundry truths: the bargain jug. ♪♪ that's a huge jug of detergent. yeah, isn't it a bargain? you know that bargain detergent is 85% water, right?

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wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. all right, if you're planning to vote in this year's midterms, chances are you're going to face some new challenges at the ballot box. that's because since 2020, gop led state legislators have enacted more than 30 new voting restrictions across the country, from voter i.d. requirements to massive voter roll approaches to limits on mail-in voting. 51% of eligible voters now resigned in states where lawmakers have made it harder to cast a ballot. how can voters navigate a maze of new restrictions, days before an election, our panel of secretaries of state is back with me. secretary simon, i'll start with you, as i mentioned, since

2020, you had a 11 states impose stricter voter identification requirements. voters in minnesota previously rejected a constitutional amendment that would have required voter i.d. laws. what impact will this kind of requirement have on voters? >> well, one of the reasons that minnesota voters pretty resoundingly sent know a few years ago was one of the examples of the more you look, the less you like. i understand it, we should all acknowledge the surface appeal of the idea, but when you look at who it really shuts out, i used to visit a lot of homes in assisted living facilities, when i was in state legislator, a lot. i've done an informal poll. i said, raise your hand if you have a government issue that shows this place as your address, not where you moved from, now where you recently moved away from, but this place. i never got to 50%, that is who we are shutting out. some would have the actual effect of shutting out tens or hundreds of thousands of eligible voters, people who are

legally able to vote. otherwise, what wouldn't be -- >> secretary griswold, these bills have also crackdown on mail-in voting. colorado primary conducts its elections by mail. why are republicans so afraid of making it easier to vote, do you think? >> that's a really great question because the honest truth is that vote by mail for all, early voting, same-day voter registration, does not help one party over the other, it really just helps american voters, and in 2020 as a nation, we were able to expand vote by mail to an unprecedented amount to eligible voters across the country, and it led to record turnout. record turnout among republicans, record turnout among democrats. but what we are seeing is the embracing of conspiracies, and, ayman, just now down where we are at, over 60% of american voters have been elected denier on there about this election.

this is not a normal mid term for this country. we're at a fork in the road, and we can go down the path of the big lie of extremism, of rolling back fundamental freedoms, or we can come together and reject the conspiracies and double down on american freedom and american democracy. what i hope to see in the coming days is that we come together, republicans and democrats, to reject extremism, to rededicate ourselves to a nation of, by and for the people. and your viewers can join me at jena for colorado.com. they can also check out -- to look at secretaries of states running across the state -- this country to preserve american democracy. >> secretary toulouse oliver, how big of a threat to these restrictions posed to voter turnout? >> it's always a threat, in particular in a midterm here. because the reality is that we are a nation of working people, of caregivers, of students, a

veterans, and anytime we are wrecked an additional barrier to the box, what we are saying is that we want fewer of these people to be able to have their voices heard. that is why i am proud of my state of new mexico, we continue to move forward, continue to expand access to the ballot box in my state, we are an oasis in this country for voting rights, and that is not the truth everywhere, and the reality is that we are not going to have a fair and equitable voting system in this country until most footers in this country preferably, all, can have the same access to the ballot box. that's why i'm so proud to be part of this group of candidates running for secretary of state. and myself running for reelection and many of my colleagues because at the end of the day, we're here to fight for the rights of voters, and we will continue to do that. >> secretary weber, why do you think republicans want to make it harder to vote for people in this country. in your state, you said you

make it easier to vote as others on this panel have said, it makes it easier for all americans to vote when you have easier voting laws? why do you think republicans do not want more people voting? >> i think unfortunately, there is a fear that they may be small in number. they're able to count, so they know that when the turnout is low, it generally involves those who are poor, those of people of color, those who have limited resources, and so, as a result of that, it's maybe to the advantage that they believe to basically not how does people to show up at the polls. but it's interesting to me because in one of my conversations with a colleague of mine, who were call minors, a white woman whose parents were called minors, her parents could never got a chance to register to vote because in virginia, dave require that you actually go to the county seat to register to vote, and it was hard for them to take off from work and go. so without thinking that it would disenfranchise these

individuals as well, as well as people of color and people that are poor. it's a fear about what the numbers say more than anything else, and it's unfortunate because everyone deserves the right to vote regardless of what their party is and whatever it may be. we have to basically open it up. in california, everyone now gets a vote by mail. most of our areas have ten days to vote. we have about boxes all around. we have polling places convenient people. their eca county, they don't want to go to a direct polling place, they can go to put center anywhere. they can register to vote on the same day at the election, so we have same-day registration in california. it's one of the first times that we had the largest registration poll, almost 82% of every registered voter in california -- we are the largest turnout in 2020, because we made it convenient. we took away excuses. people had to go to work, we

did not transportation, all those things -- we are seeing record turnouts and the elections. that should make us happy. that's the democracy, when we get to the point where we have this number 83% of people registered. i go to our voting offices to have 100 percent, regardless of party. they have 100 percent of californians participating in the process because sunday on the process, and it's their voices being heard. and they should be in the process of respecting what is going on, so it's unfortunate that people are trying to figure out ways, but my answer to all of that, as i tell everyone, coming out -- is that even when people put roadblocks in your way, you must move them. >> secretary weber, secretary toulouse oliver, secretary simon, secretary griswold, thanks to the four of you for spending time with us this hour. a critical conversation ahead at the midterms, thank you. and a quick programming note,

plus a programming note for tomorrow as well at seven eastern tomorrow night on msnbc. we'll have special election coverage ahead of the midterms. join myself, ali velshi, jonathan capehart, alicia menendez, for a to our special, that will be filed by a special addition of morning joe at 9 pm. but up next, new emails reveal a plan by trump's legal team to convince the supreme court and one particular trumpy justice to overturn the 2020 election. e 2020 election. oral treatments can be taken at home and must be taken within 5 days from when symptoms first appear. if you have symptoms of covid-19, even if they are mild, don't wait, get tested quickly. if you test positive and are at high risk of severe disease, act fast. ask if an oral treatment is right for you. covid-19 moves fast, and now you can too.

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two former trump lawyers, ken if she's burrow and john eastman correspondent in the 2020, referring to the supreme court justice clarence thomas as, quote, our only chance to get a favorable traditional opinion by january six, which might hold up the georgia recount in congress, surprised price. joining me now, charles coleman and glenn kirschner both are msnbc legal analyst. charles, a start with you. with the make of the committee's decision to i guess extend, if you, will the timeline for the receipt that these documents? >> ayman, the documents themselves are not what i am concerned with. the fact that they kept a deposition day on the 14th is what i think is the most important thing in terms of the entire conversation. i still expect us to see a challenge filed by donald trump's internees to try to stave off that date, where he ends up not showing up to actually testify before congress, but the fact that they kept the date being what it is, what the specter documents, those will be independently reviewed, and i

do understand that they want to get them, and they want to have them, but the professional courtesy, if you will, of giving him more time to produce them. in a week, it's not necessarily a huge deal. >> why even given professional courtesy? i am from the school of thought that they are not going to participate in this, this is not a good faith measure by any of the trump world, not just because of this, but because we have years of precedents of seeing him delay taxes turns, delay after supreme court decisions, why even bother? >> i think you hit the nail on the head, when you talk about later on being a good faith argument to a judge about their delay tactics, using this, given them a week extra and then watching them blow by that deadline, which many of us anticipate is going to happen and then file a charge or file something, pleading, trying to completely ignore altogether, is going to work in a favor of congress in terms of trying to hold them in contempt if that isn't a day like to do, because now, look, we giving them leeway.

he took it and basically left in our faces, so now that they have a much stronger argument, particularly of good faith in front of a judge. >> glenn, your reaction to the news that trump's legal team wanted clarence thomas to block biden's election win. and then the second part to the question i will ask now is, the fact that clarence thomas refuses to recuse himself on anything involving january six? >> ayman, it's interesting because it actually ties together a few threats, some things that we have known went on. like for example, why would lindsey graham, the senator from south carolina intervene in the georgia elections and tell republican secretary of state brad raffensperger that -- and this is raffensperger's take on his conversations with senator graham, graham was urging him to toss-up lawfully passed ballots. well, no, i think we have more insight into why lindsey graham, who had no vince this competing

in a georgia state election, was involving himself in georgia politics. and how about jeffrey clark, the high doj official who drafted a letter to georgia state officials, saying, the department of justice has grave concerns about election integrity in georgia? all of these threads are now pulled together by this latest revelation that the reason this cabal was focusing on the georgia election was because they believed they had clarence thomas on their side. he could potentially put at least a temporary halt to the certification. >> let me pick up on that point, charles, that glenn made about lindsey graham. the supreme court rejected lindsey graham's attempt to get his subpoena thrown out or block, i guess, if you will. how do you see this playing out at the disapproving court said no, you do have to actually answer the question in the investigation? >> i think what will happen is

that with fani willis and the county da office proceed with this, lindsey graham's attorneys are going to make every effort to try to categorize anything that he did with respect to these phone calls as falling within -- that was the whole notion of his defense one in the first place. look, i can't testify because my speech here is protected, because this is in my legislative capacity. fani willis in her attorneys made a very clear that they are not looking to find out information in that vein, but lindsey graham would do his best to connect those things and resist as many inquiries as possible in order to not ask or rather answer as many questions as he can avoid. i don't know how successful that will be. i expect that if he is too difficult of a witness with respect to continuing to refuse to answer questions were trying to say that this falls under speech and debate, he's likely going to find himself in front of a judge again, being compelled to answer these questions. >> glenn, the doj granted immunity to trump adviser kash

patel for testifying before a grand jury in the mar-a-lago documents case. was that the right move. this guy was pretty close to trump world, and i guess granting him immunity, is somewhat controversial, unless he can deliver something for them. we might not know what that is? yet >> only did doj, federal prosecutors involved in litigating the issue of whether cash patel had a fifth amendment right to evoke. not only do they know if it was the right move, i'm prepared to say that i am quite sure that they made the right move based on available evidence. it's still a small move, ayman, that a federal judge litigated the issue and said that kash patel has a legitimate fifth amendment right towards self incrimination. that's important because what does it tell us? cash patel likely committed a crime or at least his truthful testimony would tend to incriminate him and expose him to prosecution. now one that happens, there are

two things prosecutors could do. they can either try to charge cash patel, if they have enough evidence and then negotiate, hopefully with cooperation, and then he can testify against donald trump, or they can grant him immunity, compared to the chase and try to extract information from kash patel of the greenery. they opted to go to second? round, and i have a feeling based on the available evidence that they probably made the right call. >> all right, glenn kirschner, charles coleman, thank you both, greatly appreciate your insights. up next, a majority of supreme court justices sound inclined to further restrict affirmative action. what we learned about dak's this week. dak' this week. breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power to treat copd...

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that according to justice amy coney barrett is what she and other five conservative supreme court justices are considering in deciding whether to make further restrictions to performative action in america. this week, the justices heard arguments in two cases that will almost certainly lead to a crackdown on race based considerations in university admissions. while the court's conservative appear to be in lockstep on this crackdown, it also appears that they are aware of how messy it will be to do so. 44 years ago, the supreme court ruled in regions -- that the student body diversity is a national priority that

justifies the evolution of race and college admissions. the years since, through a handful of cases, the court has limited the policy used to put repeatedly affirmed its constitutionality and importance. until 2022. for hours during oral arguments this week, the conservative justices banded back and forth about how to best gut affirmative action, and we're going to cut it to chase to highlight what was arguably the strangest juxtaposition of the day. justice samuel alito said that university should effectively be barred from even knowing the race or ethnicity of student applicants. justice barrett to her credit pushback on the notion, observing the in order to actualize such an idea, students might be prevented from writing a missions essays about their families or their family differences, and that's the problem.

so often with going down rabbit holes with conservative ideologues, if you take their ideas to the extremes, for which they are advocating, those ideas either become unenforceable or are nonsensical. is justice alito suggesting that candidates not put their names on applications because diego rodriguez would be a signal to admissions officers? is he suggesting and and to applicant interviews because an emissions officer could see a student skin color or understand their religious affiliation. theory is different than practice, and in theory, it might seem like a doable actionable goal to end affirmative action, but the reality, which even some conservative justices seem to be learning is much much harder. after the break, speak with lawyer, civil rights advocate and the executive director of the investment project, national office, judith brown

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>> first, i think we had to put these cases in perspective. the right as o's been trying to go after affirmative action. it's not the first case. in fact, there have been four or five cases. -- at stake in this case is whether or not diversity can be used as an issue in admitting students? whether or not race can be a factor to show diversity. it's also important to put it in the larger perspective, right? it's death by a cousin -- doesn't cuts by affirmative action, but this has been a very strategic move to go after affirmative action, after voting rights, after ethnic and racial studies, and so we have to put it in the larger perspective of what is at stake is not just affirmative action, but another area of civil rights protections that we have in this country. >> how far do you think they will go because it seems that

all but certain that the court 's conservative justices will curtail affirmative action to some degree based on what we just heard earlier this week? how far do you think it'll go? >> the problem is that there are very little left of affirmative action, so they actually have the numbers to actually do away with it this time, and what is a danger is not just what is going to happen on our college campuses, but when you come for affirmative action on college campuses, the next thing you know, it will be unemployment, so this is really an attempt to whitewash our academic institutions but also our places of employment. >> your thoughts on what i was saying earlier about justice alito's remarks that universities should effectively be barred from even knowing the race or ethnicity of applicants? and we just know if you take that to its logical conclusion, you would have to ban names from applicants.

you had the ban in person interviews. there are all kinds of things that would ultimately be bendeka giveaway someone's ethnic identity or religious affiliation. >> and you use the term, said it was nonsensical, that's exactly what it is. it's nonsensical. in fact, what they have been trying to do is to get america to buy into propaganda around race neutral policies. the problem is that there is this thing called racism that gets in the way of having race neutral policies in this country, so there is no way that you can do it. thank goodness for justice ketanji brown jackson and for justice sotomayor, who are calling out of hypocrisy and the nonsense that the other justices are trying to get america to buy into. justice ketanji brown jackson actually talked about this example, the site pathetically where you had a white student talk about the legacy of being at you and see for several

generations, and a black student who says, well my family was enslaved in most of carolina. those two, the black student should be able to connect that history without it being running a foul of the law. >> certainly, when universities take into consideration legacy students, if you're a black student in this country, and he did not have the opportunity to have a legacy parent, i think that says a lot and should be a factor. >> that's right. that's what i was talking about. this legacy of a white student who was five generations of family that has gone there. what kind of diversity are they really bringing? someone who has been a beneficiary of affirmative action, i know that i brought something different because my experiences as a black woman in this country is very different from other people's experiences. >> no, 100 percent, and i completely agree that. how could further restrictions affect these universities? what do you believe we will see in the long term? you alluded to this with

unemployment, but won't veasey happened down the road? >> we see in california, we see it in other places where they ended affirmative action, and the drop off for black and brown students is significant, and we will see schools that will be mostly white and asian. students will lose out -- this is where young people start to get to know about each other, and diversity does mean something. we should be very afraid of the fact that we will be whitewashing our universities, and that is not good for anyone. >> all right, judith brown dianis, always a pleasure. thank you for making time with us this evening. greatly appreciate your insights. and coming up on the second hour of ayman, the blurring lines between rhetorical extremism and real world political violence, michigan state senator mallory mcmorrow will join me in just a moment. also, the bell measures that could change how we live