hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york and it's friday. we're keeping a close eye on election results and house races all across the country as well as those results coming out of arizona and nevada, the senate races there could very well determine which party controls the senate chamber. with hundreds of thousands of votes yet to be counted, officials are asking us to be patient. but the disgraced ex-president and his allies are turning to an unwelcome practice, exploiting the very real possibility that we may not know the result in

many races for days, maybe even weeks to bring up baseless claims of election fraud. a suggestion by former president trump that very strange things are happening earned him some bad reviews. >> unfortunate comments like the one that came out today from former president trump get certain people very fired up, and they're convinced we are doing things impropriety or against the law, and that's just not the case. >> and in arizona, kari lake suggested that officials were, quote, slow rolling the results in order to delay her victory, which is not a sure thing. the chairman of the board of supervisors, a republican clapped back at her. >> quite frankly, it is offensive for kari lake to is say these people behind me are slow rolling this when they're working 14 to 18 hours, so i

really hope this is the end of that now, we can be patient and expect the results when they come out. >> kari lake's opponent, the current secretary of state, katie hobbs also weighed in saying, this election will be determined by the voters, not by the volume at which an unhinged former television reporter can shout theories. >> as trump-backed candidates see their chances of victory slipping away, there is brand new reporting that their willingness to shout conspiracy theories from the rooftops was actually their undoing in these luxs. quote, the result of this year's midterm elections won't be final for weeks, but there's more than enough data to say this, they were different if results seem to be about a pair of issues at the forefront of democracy now,

the whether through referendums on abortion rights or candidates on the ballot who had taken antidemocratic stances. and that is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. tim miller is here, an msnbc contributor. with us at the table, my dear friend and nick, new york times correspondent takes his debut at the table. so you have the most extraordinary body of reporting and everything the big lie put in motion not just politically but at a policy level. tell me what you're still tracking. >> the one thing we're really concerned about is how arizona goes right now. kari lake doesn't want to undermine her victory. >> you can't scream fraud too loud if you win. >> even the -- i'm not sure.

even though i won, there's ballots out there. she also didn't want to suppress her turnout. she had to say, there's weird things going on, but trust the system. it's a very weird way she had to walk this line. but she has a very long history of doubting election results. so if she starts to lose and the ballots start getting away from her, we've already seen a large group of supporters had who are priermed to take action, launch lawsuits, maybe even show up and protest. arizona is a be bit of a powder keg now, and in terms of the big lie -- we knew this was coming. when we did our poll in early october, it said 41% of republicans didn't think the midterms would be accurate or fair, and that was before a single vote had been cast. so we know that there's this embers kind of ready to be sparked, and i think if arizona starts to move away from lake, which we haven't seen one way or

the other, but if it does, that's what we're looking at right now. >> embers is the perfect word for it and donald trump and -- i guess they're not sweets but knockoff twitter. it's not clear that real twitter is much better these days. but he's stoking those embers right now. >> he is. to me, the thing that's interesting about kari lake is she doubted the results of the 2020 election, and when i was in arizona speaking with senator kelly, he said what's more dangerous is the fact that she's already questioning the results of this election ahead of time. she was priming her voters for this moment. if you have been following the story, it was a printer issue. voters were given a series of options. you can stay, you can wait until the problem is resolved, you can go to another voting place or drop your ballot at a secure drop box and it will be counted there.

i love that in your script, you keep coming back to the fact that all these supervisors of the elections are republicans themselves. so to me it also underscores the fact that even within the republican party now, you are seeing these deep differences between people trying to keep this election fair and free and people who say this. kari lake and donald trump and their followers tell on themselves because if what you wanted to do was expand democracy, you would make it easier to vote by mail or early vote. that should be the conversation we're having in 2022, not a conversation about whether or not prirnts work or election officials counting these ballots now taking bullets from folks that say, let's wait and listen. >> tim, to his point. i believe they filed a lawsuit on election day, and a judge found there was no impact on

voters. to alicia's point, they were able to drop a ballot, wait until the printers came back online or drive less than two miles to another polling place. we now have in some ways the system has figured how to rapidly respond to the erroneous claims of fraud. but the damage in some ways has already been done. >> i have been in arizona this week for the circus. i was at that press conference you just aired with bill gates, and the frustration there from gates was palpable. he's under control, delivering the facts, but he's frustrated. it's tough. you have these public servants who are not built to have to respond to a republican niced disinformation machine at the top of one of the party tickets in arizona. and kari lake yesterday went on

charlie kirk's show and calling the votes despicable. she was on news max and all these disinformation far-right media outlets spreading nonsense can be ginning up her base. meanwhile, she still might win. they said yesterday, we're going to have 60-80 thousand more votes. we're going to count every night, and she's still spreading this stuff out there. you can sense the tension down there. i think we have been very lucky so far that we haven't had any incidents in this election, and thank god, and we had a lot of really brave patriots out there still counting ballots today, but this threat is still with us for at least a couple more days. we haven't been on together, and i do want to say a positive thing. >> yes, please. >> what a great week for democracy, though. i mean, kari lake thing is still pretty bad, but there were a lot of pun dents in the leadup

saying, oh, joe biden shouldn't talk about democracy and it's not a winning issue. even i had doubts about it myself. i'll admit it. >> you were so nice about your doubts. you have this whole, i hope so, nicole. it was very -- >> exactly. i hope so. it turned out they do. it's just across the country and these secretary of states and govern norse races, people who were worried about inflation and other issues, maybe don't love everything biden has done, they voted for the prodemocracy candidate, 100% so far. fingers crossed. even if things get a little diesy there, this is worth celebrating. >> i want to bring in your one time and maybe once again wingman from arizona, vaughn hillyard. he's been on this beat for a very long time.

he's in phoenix, arizona for us now. i know you're being pulled -- >> reporter: can we give him a hard time for bailing on me? >> he's coming back. jump in on this with any part you want, with where the vote stands or kari lake's disinformation as she stands a decent chance -- she's very much still in this. >> reporter: right. when tim was actually here with me yesterday, i know he could feel the tension that was in the room. and largely, that was because, you know, you have the likes of chairman bill gates, these are the elections folks here who have overseen these leks, fair, accurate ones, not only in 2020 but now here. they have been at the center of threats. they have been at the center of harassment. they have been at the epi center of everything that trumpism, donald trump and his allies

leaving voice mails for him to help them overturn the 2020 election, and now they're in the center of this. i think there is some tension and frustration over the slow release of the ballots. while understandable, and there is for no reason to suggest it's for no other reason than to make sure it's secure and these ballots were sent in by individuals who go by the name on that ballot. but what happens is when you have that open space and that open air, it's folks like kari lake that fill in that void there and call into question, why is this slow-walking. mark finchem, his very latest, why does the republican state treasurer candidate have 215,000 more votes than any other state candidates? well, i can tell you, she's walked much more of a straight line conservative role here, and

it wouldn't surprise most folks who have covered politics. but he goes and tells his huh dreads of thousands of followers that there's a conspiracy and that the folks here behind me who are simply going and adjudicating and making sure shoour the ballots are legitimate are some part of a conspiracy and there's nothing to suggest that, and that is where the hope is at some point here that we are able to close that void here because in the meanwhile, it's these folks creating these conspiracy theories as we speak. >> let me ask you one question. these are the same people who had eternal patience for the cyber anyone gentlemans, took weeks and months, they were trump's allies, from florida, they had no experience, they weren't from arizona, they had a lot of patience for that. if you could for our viewers, just explain what the process

is. what exactly are election officials doing? what does the count look like? >> also to give you an idea here, it was this last state legislature that came within one vote of arrested the maricopa board of supervisors because they refused to hand the ballots over to that gang. number one, there's signature verification process, so all these mail ballots, that was 290,000 dropped off in person, they are comparing the signatures on the envelopes of the individuals, and going against whether it be the dmv, data base, whatever signature they have on file to confirm that signature matches the one within the state records here. you have a republican and democrat, so if there's something wrong, a fold in the ballot, a spill, ink that goes outside the lines, they're going ballot by ballot to confirm that they're legitimate and what the

intent was. there's also the curing process. there are thousands of ballots that need folks to come back and confirm that it is in fact them that voted here. it's complicated. there's a lot at stake. there's also the 17,000 ballots rejected by the machine the other day. those are now going through a separate machine here. there is no evidence -- and to be clear, kari lake has not suggested any evidence of fraud. it's a frustrating process but one that we should have the results based off of the trends that some of these ballots will indicate to us. >> do me one last favor, if anything changes or if you see anything else, just wave and come on back. thank you so much for being there and being our eyes and ears. tim, let me come back to you really quickly and it sounds like your presence is missed. but just kind of go a little deeper for me on arizona.

>> yeah. vaughn wasn't in a tie when i was with him yesterday. he needed to toughen up a little bit without his body guard next to him. i'm not much of a body guard, but two is better than one. i'm a little less optimistic than vaughn that we're actually going to know in the next day or two. i think it depends on how much of these ballots come out. we'll see. i think it could even go into early next week. what we have a sense of politically, you would really, really much rather be mark kelly and adrienne fontez than blake masters and those two are almost certainly going to go south. they have very huge gaps and it would have to be a very surprising republican result in what's left to be counted. the lame race is much harder to know. i think that's the danger or the

scary situation ahead. conceivably, that could be a race that gets into recount territory or very close depending on what these election day ballots look like. the question is the mail ballot was more democrat and the election day ballot was more republican. what they have left to count is people that got a mailed ballot but walked in and dropped it in election box on election day. are those going to be the democratic may recalls or republicans who think there's some con conspiracy asy about the mailman and they had to bring it in personally. it's hard to know. until we get a sense for what those look like, it's hard to know how the race will shake out. >> i was going to move beyond arizona, but i can't yet. just answer these -- was there any fraud in arizona in 2020? >> no, there was not. >> did the cyber anyone gentlemans find any fraud when they got ahold of the ballots. >> no. they certified that biden did in

fact win arizona. >> by even more. this is nuts. >> it strikes me that ordinarily a campaign has a singular focus, and that is winning, and now these campaigns, if you are a democratic campaign and running against an election denier, you have to win, and at the same time you're making every move to win, you have to be preparing for the almost inevidentability that if the election does in fact swing your way, your opponent is going to question is results of that election. so there's now the duality of what these campaigns had to do. >> let me show you what liz cheney had to say about the results and climate. >> i look at what happened on tuesday night, and while it's certainly is not the end of this battle, we have a long battle ahead, i do think it was the american people generally sending a message, they want to

pull us back from the brink. they don't want this nation to go over the edge, to go into the abyss. we have to make sure the incentives are there to elect the kind of people who are going to make sure they're part of the solution. >> i've never believed that liz cheney had an outsized impact on the elections, but i do believe that when the backdrop was the public hearings of the january 6th committee and we learned for the very first time donald trump's role in orchestrating a coup against his own government and trying to kill mike pence. some of the most harrowing testimony was at the end of the summer. you take that and add a conservative republican with the last name cheney was saying the same thing as the democratic candidates. i think her impact was more than nothing. what do you think about her carrying the message? >> i think it's an element of the story. one of the things i found interesting when i was standing in a groetry store holding a

rotisserie chicken and talking with them, they may not talk about the chip sack or ira or january 6th hearings or even abortion in the context of bodily autonomy. they're like, i don't want to government in my business. i heard from voters over and over again, they're too out there, and that sort of sense of extremity is what i think voters were rejecting, even if they weren't specifically talking about january 6th or attacks on democracy. i think you can ask about the impact that liz cheney had. you can also ask what is the impact of a candidate who given the option not to lean into election denialism chooses to run and wins that way, that's how they get donald trump's endorsement, and then they're in a general carrying that water. what's interesting to me is they

really do believe it. it's not even just about having gotten -- because they had the opportunity to pivot off it, and they stayed with it. >> i was always so much more focused on the terrible policies that were put into place. the voter integrity laws that were masquerading as doing something about fraud when since the year 2000 when james baker looked at it, there was no fraud. through 2020 when 60 courts looked at allegations of fraud and found none, regardless, i think there were 490 voter suppression laws that raised through 48 states. but the other piece of it was the political impact that you had a party predicated on a lie talking about something that was a fairy tale. >> when i was in michigan, i heard almost a sense of frustration. my biggest issue is the economy. so i want to hear that.

and when you're out there saying the elections were stolen, they were rigged, we're talking about things in 2020, how dare you. i'm telling you thing that is are important to me, and you're not respond to go that. the abject on denialism really bothered some voters. i think that polling kind of missed that because yes the economy was the most important issue, but part of that is you have to address it. and if your main goal or topic is election denialism or a rerigged election and you have to think about what's in front of you -- i was at an event for governor whitmer, she was the top of the ticket, and three different voters i talked to brought that up, and they were like, i'm most concerned -- they were talking about crime in detroit, and they were like, what i don't like hearing is if i don't win, you cheated. >> it's not even about the voter.

it's about the candidate. tim, i want to come back to this because i think we keep moving forward, but it is worth some of us in the media looking over our shoulder and trying to see where some of the analysis went wrong. when we saw economy, there was this reflexive analysis that that was bad bad for democrats. voters -- maybe when they were saying economy, they were saying, i got a better shot with the democrats. >> yeah -- >> i love it. that's tim's i don't know, buttock. >> no. i'm offering another alternative idea. maybe they're saying economy is the number one issue. i don't exactly love everything joe biden's done in the economy, but what are these other guys going to do? they're talking about litter boxes in the classroom in 2020 election and vaccine conspiracies. they don't seem to care about the economy very much.

the french presidential election which happened earlier this year, and macron had low approval ratings running against la pen who was there trump, and his -- macron's ratings are very low, and yet he still beats her in a land slide. there were a lot of concerns that was going to happen. basically what we're seeing today, a lot of voters were like, you know, i don't love everything that's happening right now in washington. i wish that inflation was a little more under control, et cetera, but i'm not going to go vote for the general who's out there in the stump talking about how bill gates is putting microchips in our body. that's not the guy that is going to solve my economic anxiety. i do think that that's sometimes hard to capture, and what we found in the exit polls were people that were somewhat disapproving of biden, they voted for democrats plus four

because they're like, i'm somewhat disapproving biden, but i'm really disapproving these loons trying to turn us into an autocracy. >> i would think liz trust collapsing was another sign that the promises made by conservatives were not the solution to what ails all of us. she imploded, and they were on tv from the time she ascended until three weeks later saying, we're coming, this is what we're going to do. all right. no one is going anywhere. when we come back, if you're assuming that over at fox news, they're melting down over what happened on tuesday, you would be correct. one blame-throwing host has a suggestion for the gop aimed directly at single women in

america. we'll tell you about that. plus, twitter at one time at its best was a place for news and information, if you knew where to find it, it flowed pretty easily somewhere. a town square of sorts for different voices. but now under new ownership, it's a hot mess with lies running rampant. >> and later in the program, mike cohen on the president's very bad week, and what he has in mind, what he could do to ron desantis. all that when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. quick break. don't go anywhere. were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. i grew up an athlete, i rode horses... i really do take care of myself. i try to stay in shape. that's really important, especially as you age.

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single women and voters under 40 have been captured by democrats, so we need these ladies to get married. >> it's a campaign apparatus, and only the democrats have it. >> we have two other opponents we have to deal with. one is the main stream media, they're 90% against us. they're always going to spin things against us, and the other are the institutions of the government itself, the department of justice, the fbi, and when those two entities get together, the democrats don't have to be good. >> i resisted this all week, tim, because it felt mean, but i couldn't. the middle tucker carlson is literally a mouth piece for vladimir putin as he wages a campaign of terrorism against

the civilian population of ukraine. the first guy, i don't know what he's talking about, put a ring on it. beyonce wants her song back. what is happening over there? >> you didn't even play my favorite clip from the first guy, jesse waters who went on to say how these young women are the new welfare queens because they got their student loans reimburse. >> who paid for his college? where does that come from? >> it's a shock that young voters went plus 28 to the democrats after watching those clips, isn't it? >> they could give speeches if they just stuck with the republicans. what? >> and here's the issue. we're going to have plenty of time over the next year to talk about what happens with trump and whether they push him aside or not and et cetera. but those clips show the underlying sickness that regardless of what happens with trump is not really going away.

these guys are unable to understand why they repelled voters so much. there is no excuse for the republicans this year to have not won in a big land slide. historically, it always happens in the first midterm, when the economy is bad, the apple party always does well. the reason why they didn't do well is because their talking points, their messages is so repulsive. not every republican, but the most angry agrieved republicans and as long as they continue to try to appeal to that base, they're going to keep losing this big middle, and their analysis from the elections just show that they have not learned a thing. some of them want to just blame it all on trump and say it's

trump's fault, and it partially is, they should have dumped him a long time ago. but this other element shows that they don't get it. they don't get why they're turning off big amounts of demographic in the country. >> do you remember the movie how to lose a guy in ten days? how to lose a midterm with the economic where it is is an effort to do that badly. i think it's to your point. i think the supreme court and dobbs and election denialism are just these chains around the republican brand that they're going to take a lot longer than two years to shake. >> especially because they know they are up against the reality of a demographic shift. there was a lot of talk about whether the obama coalition could hold. we talk about aapi votes, latino

groups, and the group we talk about the least the unmarried women, women who have never been married, divorced, widowed, so you're talking about a broad section of women. what do they have in common? they are not married to someone often talking to them about their politics -- >> or watching fox news. >> or watching fox news. what struck me about the watering thing was to me it had big insell vibes. the way they're hetero sexual men who blame it on women and society that they've not had romantic success. you have jesse waters blaming it on women and society that his ideology has not had political electoral sex -- success -- excuse me. >> or that. i mean, that's a longer conversation maybe to have an a podcast, but i think it's part

of the mix as well. these guys, though, count on their viewers the way politicians count on their base, and i think what's showing is that. they count on the viewers to do something performative in the elections because they told them to, even though in defamation lawsuits, for example, they admit, we're not journalists, we're not telling the truth. we're entertainment. they're being sued for more than $1 billion by the makers of voting machines. i mean, you can't fool all your viewers all the time. >> well, it also can be self defeating when you're talking about stuff like that, single women, you're missing why you actually lost which is on issues like abortion. the biden coalition also head it together. they stopped talking to some of those white working class voters in the way they want to be talked to. if you look at john fetterman. he won by about ten points.

>> i went to that county after trump flipped it. i saw that fetterman won it by a lot. >> by a significant margin. biden was only winning it by a few. i was with doug mastreano, and he was pointing to momentum year and if i do well here, and the same thing is happening on fox news. they are not talking about issues that will matter to the voters who will decide the election. maybe it will matter in a primary. to quote jeb bush. i think that's what's happening here. it's fog to keep happening. >> we haven't even talked about young people. to my understanding, half of gen-z isn't even eligible to vote yet. they have to know that shift is coming. i ran for -- i started organizing because i was worried

about being shot at school. again, that is such a lived experience for this generation. i remember reporting out of parkland and talking to these people weren't that much younger than me, but their experience is so different than ours. we were practicing fire drills, they're practicing active shooter drills. >> from the time they're three. >> we're both moms. so this is very real. >> or moms and dads. it's just amazing. tim miller, nick, thank you so much for being on set with us. we're trying to be sort of quasi-post -- you are needed in arizona, tim. but when you're done, you can come see us. up next for us, we'll turn the elon musk and his haphazard takeover of twitter. what has gone wrong and can any of it be fixed?

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least there were still a handful of people there keeping the lights on, minding the important stuff, in charge of things like security, safety, privacy. no more. in the last 48 hours, three top executives in charge of things like security, safety, and privacy, resigned. whether or not you use twitter, surely you can understand how fraught a moment like this can be. an app that has become kind of a national town square where hundreds of millions of people react with each other and wittingly or unwittingly share information, opinions, news, views, now predicted measures are disappearing. consider this from politico, between the now canceled roll out and exodus of top security staff, twitter is quickly exposing itself to a deluge of new security risks that could

soon ramify into the the public. from users impersonating emergency service providers to spread panic. quoting one, it is staggering to imagine the amount of risk this platform has opened itself up to. let's bring in kara swisher. she's a contributing editor at new york magazine. she's the host of pivot and on with kara swisher. so nice to have you at the table. ben collins joins us, and alicia is still here. kara, you helped me understand who elon musk is and he had extraordinary success at tesla and spacex. twitter seems like a hot mess. what happened? >> or a cold mess. it's -- you know, i thought -- of all the people that could have helped fix this, elon musk would have been at the top of my list.

i'm surprised at the casual cruelties and the chaos behavior, the plan -- and the treatment of people at twitter. layoffs are going on all over tech, but not in this form. i've never seen anything like it in my covering silicon valley for 25 years. >> i want to ask you a question from my lenses. i watched a lot of people on the right flatter figures not just donald trump but other figures and then watch them implode, lose their moral compass, lose any attachment to anything that resembles conservative policy, and i saw them do that to elon musk, but based on your reportings of his other success, i thought, surely he won't destroy himself. it looks like he is. >> i'm not sure what he's doing. he would turn on them if he wanted. i've known him for years.

he was a fan of obama and had problems with trump. he had been an independent, i would say. and he seems to embrace -- i'm not going to say red pill because i think that's unfair. i think he's embraced being contraryian. and part of it is maybe he's changed his viewpoint. the other part is small petty things like biden didn't include him in some automobile electric vehicle stuff as he should have, and i think he was mad about it. i don't know any other explanation but that. >> so when we get mad, we destroy twitter. what do you think is going on, ben? >> i think red pilling thing the correct. that's the word for right-wing radicalization. they took that from the matrix. you remember that whole thing? blue pill, see reality with a red pill, right? the people who made the matrix say please stop stealing my

stuff, by the way. this follows the same pattern of these same people. you see the people he's interacting with right now after he lost all the advertisers. they don't want mario flipping off all their customers. red pills is what happened to this guy. this guy has had a very rough couple of weeks because he's taking advice from people who fundamentally want the world to burn. >> what is happening on twitter right now? >> okay. >> what is not happening on twitter right now? >> that's exactly right. first of all, i don't see how they're making a dollar right now. all the advertisers are bailing because of the impersonation issues, and they should. say you bought a flight at delta, flight gets canceled.

you think you're dm'ing delta, but you're dm'ing some guy that had an $8 check mark. that's the idea now. >> so should we all get off? >> i wouldn't do any customer service there certainly. the you want to see a house that's on fire, you can go to twitter. if you want to do business and stuff, i would not hang on to twitter. advertisers aren't funneling in money, and right now, they've turned off this verification thing too, and their entire plan so to get millions or billions of users to spend this 8 bucks, and they're having trouble getting the thousands and tens of thousands. so it's -- i don't know how this survives. i just got to be real with you. i do not see, literally, how this website survives into the next year. >> it was going to be my question to ben or carol is once you have chaos like that unleashed, is there even a way to reign it back in?

>> why don't you take that, kara? >> it's a business. people that used to run the company when they were asked what he's going to do, they were like, we don't know. he just yells at us. they didn't have any advertising books. one of the things they're doing is saying advertisers are woke. if it works, they advertise where it works. if there was a satan website and they could sell fit bits, they would do it. they don't feel safe on the platform, and this is good evidence, whenever it's lily, free insulin, things like that, it could be fixed, and if it isn't fixed, there's going to be alternatives. i'm talking to a lot of entrepreneurs, there is a lot of stuff built right now. but entrepreneurs are like, this

is a great opportunity. we can make or build something with more moderation, with more people we know and things like that. it's an enormous opportunity, and people are going to slip in. >> i want to ask both of you about the potential victims of this sort of unmanaged, unrecognizable in some instances misinformation on twitter, but i have to sneak in a quick break because we do still have advertisers. what happens next at twitter will be our question for kara and ben. don't go anywhere. a and ben. don't go anywhere.

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the anytime, anywhere migraine medicine. we're back with kara, ben, and alicia. kara, tell me what resource there is for people who consume the disinformation or they think the lebron james tweets are lebron, and it's a sports fan so you're whipsawed emotionally, but people reading this information about insulin, is there any recourse? is anyone looking out for them? >> no. i would say no. the people who left were very good, and people elon put out front this last week, one of them, yoel roth, is very well respected. so, no, there's no recourse at all. >> i wonder -- there's been this conversation around moderation. >> right. >> and what moderation is actually for and the value of

it. i wonder if the absence of it -- >> proves the point. that's a great question. >> i think a lot of the people who were like, oh, elon is going to fix everything, get rid of all those liberals that are running moderation at twitter, they are actively asking for the moderation back. so this very unnuanced conversation that was being had in congress all the time, anytime you brought a tech ceo up to twitter -- i'm sorry -- up to congress and jack dorsey from twitter or mark zuckerberg had to talk, you would hear all these congressional republicans being like, why am i being shadow banned, why did you ban my friend, things like that. now we realize that was a canard. their buddy is running the website now, and they want it back to the way it was because that what content moderation does. you're running a website, a community. you are not running -- you're not running this complete free-for-all because if you do, it looks like this. it looks like a place where nobody knows who anyone is, and

you can't get the signal from the noise. >> kara, i saw a tweet that said now elon buy fox news. how is elon musk's brand altered by this debacle? >> as you know, i think great things around cars and rockets, and i really think it's -- i've never seen a brand diminish so quickly, someone like this. he's making a spectacle of himself and i don't honestly understand it. i've interviewed him. you know that. i've interviewed him so many times. as to the content moderation, you know who's cleaning up here? tiktok, the most moderated platform, social platform, right now is tiktok. let's leave aside the chinese government stuff, and i never do, but let me say it's a great experience. one thing elon said yesterday -- two days ago on that call was, if you spend an hour on it and you feel badly, this shouldn't be a good product. if you spend an hour on it and you love it and you have fun, that's great. well, that's tiktok right now, and that's why tiktok's doing so well. so from a business point of

view, why are you creating chaos? it's just like this last election. everyone wanted people who are screaming to stop screaming. >> yes. >> and they want to live nice lives of good place with great products. i don't think you feel badly after watching netflix or getting a prime delivery. you might have issues around all these things, but you have to feel great about a product. it has to be must-have. this is exactly what i told elon in early october when he asked my thoughts. i said it has to be fun, useful, and must-have. he's ruined the fun -- or it's fun watching the disaster. >> i think people feel this flashing red danger of democracy, this flashing red danger of our freedoms, this flashing red danger of misinformation, and he does this. >> lucky it's so small. it's not a good business. it's never been a big business. it's big among our people, right, the media and the politics. but it's not a big business, but it does matter in other countries for sure. >> do you think it goes away? do you think it's over? >> there's a lot of debt on this

thing. he's the world's richest man, so he certainly can afford it. he may have to buy his own debt back, which is really crazy when you think about it. he's the world's richest man, but his other company, tesla, has declined. it's in half now since the fall. and he's got a lot of rich friends, but not everybody likes to throw money, you know, in a pile and burn it up if this is what's happening here. and the banks will back him. the banks will back him. >> really quickly, i want to say, kara, i agree with everything you just said. i think this is the picture of radicalization, and that it can happen to literally anyone. this is the richest man in the world with more resources than anyone on the planet earth, and this guy got high on his own supply. it can happen quite literally to -- maybe we can learn a lesson from this and say, like, maybe websites should have some guardrails from now. >> amen to that. thank you so much. just ahead for us, the ex-president and what remains of

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this is a time that donald trump is no doubt in the rearview mirror. it's time to move on with the party. it's time to move on with candidate quality. i think donald trump's moving from a movement to a distraction for the republican party now. >> i think moving in a different direction as we move forward is a good thing, not a bad thing. >> a true leader understands when they have become a

liability. a true leader understands that it's time to step off the stage, and the voters have given us that very clear message. >> better late than never. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. in the wake of republicans far underperforming history and democrats in tuesday's midterm elections, a clear message is emerging from members of the ex-president's political party. we are done. it is over. we are breaking up with you. although we still do not know which party will ultimately control the u.s. house and senate, a huge takeaway from this week is that trump is indeed a drag on republicans running for office. many of the candidates he endorsed lost, especially in key battlegrounds like dr. oz in pennsylvania and don bolduc in new hampshire. over in michigan, which saw democrats take control of the state government at every single level for the first time in 40 years, that state's republican party put out a memo blaming trump for being the reason that donors did not contribute more.

they wrote this. quote, as a party, we found ourselves consistently navigating the power struggle between trump and anti-trump factions of the party, mostly within the donor class. that power struggle ended with too many people on the sidelines and hurt republicans in key races. with the twice impeached disgraced ex-president is not letting any of this slow him down. today on steve bannon's podcast, longtime trump adviser jason miller confirmed that trump will be announcing his run for president in 2024 this coming tuesday. that announcement will be happening in quite a different environment than what trump was likely expecting. he's fresh off big losses and lots of them among critical candidates he endorsed. members of his own party are publicly turning against him, which they have not done yet. and his chief republican rival, florida governor ron desantis, is politically stronger than ever. desantis, who won his re-election on tuesday by an almost 20-point margin, is emerging as the new gop standard

bearer. trump went on a tirade against him last night, saying among other things that desantis would be nothing without trump. in case all that political bad news wasn't enough for the twice impeached ex-president, the many legal investigations into him can now move forward unabated. as politico reports, quote, some of the political protections that the former president was enjoying are effectively gone. and the firewall of republican insulation he expected from the house and senate appears likely to have some holes in it after an unexpectedly strong showing by democrats in the midterms. with the midterms in the rear view, federal prosecutors are no longer abiding by an unwritten code to avoid politically sensitive investigative steps before voters go to the polls. there's the federal investigation into his efforts to overturn the 2020 election as well as the probe under way in fulton county, georgia. there's doj's investigation into trump's mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago and the investigation by newly re-elected new york

attorney general letitia james, looking into trump's businesses, all while the 1/6 committee is writing his final report and the tax fraud trial looking into the trump org has now resumed after a pause earlier this month. it's where we begin the hour. here with us, michael cohen, host of the mea culpa broadcast and author of "revenge." the reverend al sharpton. joins us. also here, tim o'brien. viewers of this program know you all have some version of history with donald trump, and i really want this conversation to land on what we should do and how we should cover another run for president from him. >> i think that donald trump, in the end, will probably not run. i think that he's going to

announce. i think it probably is the worst nightmare for desantis to be getting this kind of attention, for people to say he's in the rear view. so his ego's challenged. but i think at the end of the day, he does not want to be beaten as badly as he would probably be beaten if he were to run. so i think he's going to go through all the motions and find an exit ramp if he can. i also think that democrats and independents are not deceived. desantis' politics are not much better than trump. even our dislike of the personality of trump, let's not feel that desantis is an alternative policy-wise or legislative-wise. this is the guy banning books and anti-critical race theory when there is none and anti-lgbtq. so desantis. >> anti-disney. >> so let's not act like desantis is an alternative. he's just a younger, more savvy,

polished version of an old man who doesn't know that the people have left the theater. he's still onstage singing, and there's nobody in the audience. even the lady that sells the popcorn has gone home, donald. there's no one in the theater but you. >> i don't think he's singing. he's just shouting like a crazy person. what do you think? >> how do you argue with the rev? i don't, you know. i can tell you one thing. i agree with him. i don't believe he's even going to announce. there's many things -- we've seen now "washington post" just put out a statement that they're postponing the tuesday announcement. >> really? >> yes. and on top of that, we're finding out that javanka have decided -- jared and ivanka. i needed javanka because of my tweets. it wasn't enough character. so javanka had already stated they will not work on the campaign. >> are they endorsing desantis or just staying out of trump? >> that's a good question. not only are they not running

the campaign, if, in fact, trump should win, which would be possible because he's not running. but if they did, they would not go to the administration. it makes perfect sense why they wouldn't. jared has already gotten out of this country what he needed. his father a pardon. $2.5 billion from the saudi. and on top of that, you know, even on this show, i've said i believe -- my opinion -- that jared is the mole. and could you imagine having a senior adviser to the president who is an fbi informant? i mean this goes beyond any television show and the crazy just won't stop there. >> you think he's telling the fbi what trump did? >> absolutely. i believe he's the one that told them where the documents were. he saw the documents. i mean if you have -- >> do you have any evidence of that? >> no. but if you have a safe in your home, other than your kids, who knows about the safe? who knows about what's inside of it? it's not like he's letting jason miller go in and take a look or steve bannon. the fact that jason miller went on steve bannon's show, what does that mean? it means nothing.

>> tim, i want your thoughts on all this. jump in. >> you know, donald trump is not going to go away, nicole. even if he doesn't announce or he does announce, even if the party wants to put him in their rearview mirror, he is someone who doesn't go away. the extent to which he feels deeply damaged by the label of being a loser, coming out of these midterms, and the fact that he's trying to claim credit for the trumpists in sheep's clothing, like glenn youngkin in virginia, or a trumpist in wolf's clothing like ron desantis in florida, because they were successful candidates, when in fact i think both of them have gone out of their way to embrace trumpism but not

campaign with trump. most of the other people that he expressly campaigned with lost on tuesday night, and he knows that, and the party knows that. and no one in the party would really take him on prior to tuesday because they believe that still had a magical sway over voters. he still has the strong sway over his base, over that 30% or so of republicans who love him. but he doesn't have a viable national electoral base, and it took tuesday night to get the party to start moving against him. and, you know, i remember back in 2020, you and i were talking in advance of the election. would the presidential election in 2020, if biden won, make him go away? you and i had conversations around the thought of, well, no, it won't because he'll just burn the house down in some fashion because he won't accept the loss. and, of course, he then did that.

we got january 6th out of that event. he tried to shred the constitution. he tried to stage a coup. the midterms don't afford him that opportunity. the party is turning on him. so what he's going to do now is try to burn the party down. if the party won't accept him, this frankenstein's monster that they created, then he's going to come lurching back into the village and go after the republican leadership and successful republican candidates and try to impugn them regardless of what happens with his own announcement. i don't think he's somebody who can walk away from keeping the idea that he might announce or might run in people's minds because it affords him three things. it keeps him in the media spotlight, and he's a media addict. it allows him to raise money. he's realized he can monetize the campaign. and he's swamped in these investigations and i think he thinks the presidency will afford him some sort of insulation from these investigations. so he's going to keep that in play for as long as he can, and

he's going to try to, i think, obliterate anyone who criticizes him in the interim. >> let's really -- i mean, you have all run up straight into him in one way or another. so i want you, michael cohen, to tell me what that second thing looks like that tim's talking about, trying to obliterate the ron desantiss out there. >> he will. no different than what he tried to do with me. it's all part of the same playbook. donald only runs relatively the same plays, maybe with a tweak here or there. the first thing he does is he labels you, right? whether it's low energy jeb, little marco, lyin' ted. now it's ron desanctimonious. i don't even know what that means and i know one thing, that he doesn't know how to spell it so somebody actually did a good job for him. then he's going to try to use any media sway that he has to denigrate you. he's already put it out there, smb something about ron desantis' wife isn't going to be

happy. that's a latent threat. what did he do to ted cruz? he put a picture of ted cruz's father with lee harvey oswald, right, and the caption by the "national enquirer," ted cruz's father killed jfk. but he did the same thing to marco rubio when he had marco rubio in a swimming pool with cocaine with a bunch of naked guys, "national enquirer." the "national enquirer" is not relevant anymore. nobody even looks at it. he lost "the new york post." he lost fox news. that article was really rough. so at the end of the day, what does he have? untruth social? i mean how many people, what, 20, 30 people on that? if we give him the oxygen to keep this going, it's on us. ignore him. >> how do you snuff it out? we've covered him largely as a domestic extremism threat and as the target of multiple criminal investigations. but how do you -- which is the kind of press he loathes.

but how do you snuff him out politically? >> i think the way that you snuff him out is have him as a defendant in one of those investigations. >> right. >> short of that, i think you have to deal with the fact that donald trump played into something that was ugly, that was biased, that was misogynist, that was homophobic in the country. and i think we have to see him in the context of the ugliness that he represented in the body politic. you know, i knew trump from fighting him and getting along with him, fighting him and getting along with him. i don't think he believes in anything. i think he goes with what struck for him, and that fact that it struck means there's an element there we have to deal with, and i think we need to deal with the fact that he exploited an ugly underbelly that we did not want to admit was still in this country. >> tim, you got him to blink. i mean there is a point where for self-preservation purposes,

he does blink. you know, he lies, he lies, he blusters, he blusters, he plants stories in the "national enquirer," he does what he does. but then in a court of law, it was a lawsuit with you, he blinks. what do you think that portends for doj's multiple criminal investigations into him? >> well, i think if they bring the fact pattern to donald trump's doorstep around criminal acts and they prove that he intended to carry out those acts, there's going to be a reckoning. i think the mar-a-lago case with, i think, violations of the espionage act and clear evidence of obstruction of justice is a very clear case. i don't think there's any doubt about the bona fides of that one legally. i think it is just up to prosecutors to take it to trump. i think merrick garland is sitting on a pile of evidence that has come out of the january 6th hearings and his own

investigations. that also could get donald trump indicted on a number of criminal charges. so i don't think any of these issues involve legal hurdles. they involve political hurdles. they involve whether or not prosecutors are willing to show the steel to take trump to court. and the argument against that thus far has been if prosecutors do that, they run the risk of violence in the streets and political fallout and a fraying of respect for the office of the presidency and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. none of that stuff is material anymore. the midterms have shown that i think the party might find it useful, the republican party, to have law enforcement get donald trump out of their hair. it would probably be the most -- if voters won't do it, law enforcement can. i think ideally, the best way for this to get resolved is for voters to continue to rebuke

donald trump. but at the end of the day, no president is above the rule of law. we as a nation and our institutions have to stand by that. and i think the way you get donald trump to blink, nicole, is by holding him to account for crimes that evidence suggest he clearly committed and that he clearly knew about. and i think we're coming closer and closer to that every day. >> i mean the obstruction case in mar-a-lago has taken place in public view. the mishandling of classified documents is pretty clear, and the january 6th evidence of obstructing an official proceeding, things that others have pleaded guilty to, is pretty obvious too. >> and what could be more clear than the guy's tax returns, which the government has, which prosecutors have? you don't have to sit there and worry about the hypotheticals, oh, will there be violence in the streets? no. our law enforcement is already on that, and we have the national guard. we have enough police officers. we're going to be just fine. we just keep thinking up

hypotheticals why not to do it, and that's why i constantly implore merrick garland, just do it. do your job, which is to prosecute. they're more concerned about the conviction and their own conviction rate and whether history will show that they lost than they are about the prosecution. tim is right. no one is above the law. donald trump certainly shouldn't be above the law. and in fact, alvin bragg in the d.a. case they have jeff mcconnelly on the stand today -- yesterday, and jeff mcconney's comment was that donald trump directed these payments, the ones to allen weisselberg, which is the base of that criminal case. but more than that, trump gave the grand jury a document that they had whited out, that took out the weisselberg payment in his personal ledger. is this not enough? rev? >> it all happens in full view. >> in full view, and he's talking out loud. i mean this stuff is not hidden, which is why i think it is

absolutely right. the question is are we now in a country that we are going to have certain people, because they were president or have a certain kind of threat that we feel that some imaginary -- >> can i say what's the threat? that someone will try to shoot up an fbi office? storm the u.s. capitol? it's already happened. >> and donald trump has got everybody feeling there be this mass rise-up of the people. it's not going to happen, donald. they didn't rise up and vote the other day. it's over. they orchestrated january 6th. they will not be able to do that if he's prosecuted. how is he going to orchestrate it? let's not act like this was some rise-up of the proletariat on january 6th. this was organized and financed, and it was something that was planned. there was no rising of the masses on january 6th. >> as he sat there watching the televisions, enjoying the view.

>> after he invited them on twitter as the country's sitting president. you're absolutely right, rev. everyone sticks around. much more ahead for all of us including how the twice impeached ex-president's endorsement this year stacked up against liz cheney's. later in the hour, we made it through the midterms for the most part, but there's still a flashing red warning out there that the threats to democracy and the fear of political violence we've been covering on this program for two years now are ongoing. what the experts are seeing and what worries them most. that's coming up. and scenes of jubilation as ukrainian forces enter the strategically important city of kherson after russian troops withdraw. what it means and what it feels like in kyiv in this next phase of the war. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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. people talk about donald trump these days as the biggest loser, and i think that's true if you look at the, you know, the record from 2018, from 2020, from the special election in 2021, from 2022. so i think that's an important point. i also think, though, that as a party, we need to be clear that we would not be -- we should not be embracing him even if he were a winner because what he's doing and what he advocates is so dangerous. >> biggest loser comments will always make our air. we're back with michael, rev,

and tim. she got under his skin. he's obsessed with liz cheney. she paid the price of her seat, but i think she left a mark. i think between the hearings, i think between parading republicans in front of the country in prime time for many months over the summer, i think that aided the conversation about democracy. what do you think? >> no doubt about it. i think when you saw what they did with the committee, which she was a moving force along with the chair, when you see this is dick cheney's daughter -- >> right. >> -- so if you've got people on the far left, the left, the moderates, and dick cheney's daughter talking about this is about accountability, this is about democracy, certainly that had some real impression on voters that were concerned. and when we saw the polls saying, yeah, we're concerned about crime, but we're concerned about democracy, part of giving that a legitimacy was liz cheney

and others that would never be on the same side of the argument with people like me saying there's some validity to this. i think she definitely made a mark. >> republicans have purged from their ranks, i think, all the ten republicans who voted to impeach donald trump. there are what, 138 republicans who voted to impeach the results of the 2020 election, to overturn joe biden's victory. i mean it feels like trump always benefits from the asymmetry. should there be an accountability effort for those republicans? >> why not? at some point in time we have to understand the country is not donald trump, and as soon as we extricate him from our body politic, the getter off we're going to be. it's enough already. what about our democracy? what about trying to leave the country to the next generation, the generations after better than we found it. we're not doing that right now. when you start to see the overturn of roe, and next will be obergefell, and there will be

half a dozen more with the supreme court, what obama wasn't allowed to do, to put in merrick garland as a supreme court judge, which by the way i'm not 100% sure i would have wanted him, but at the end of the day, trump did, but everything they say that applies to democrats doesn't apply to republicans. this is where we have to stop. we have to understand that we are in this collectively, right? if you don't like your seat assignment on an airplane, you don't want the plane to go down. that's what trump wants to do. tim nailed it, and i've had this conversation with tim before. donald will look to burn the country down because he lost. >> tim, what does this -- what advice do you have? i think that there's this real moment, and i think that we have -- myself included, we failed some of these tests with trump. he's pretending that he's going to announce next tuesday. it's clearly to avoid some culpability or make doj more uncomfortable investigating and potentially prosecuting him.

how should next week be covered by us? >> i don't think we can look away from donald trump. i don't think our role is to pretend that horrors don't exist, and donald trump is a horror. i also don't think -- you know, i would disagree with michael a little bit in that donald trump -- about that donald trump doesn't represent the country. i think actually trump is an outcome of a lot of things. i actually think he does represent a lot of deeply-rooted problems in america. i define trumpism the way that donald trump defines it, which is anti-institutionalism, anti-elitism wedded to white nationalism, a deeply racial appeal that has taken -- that gets great traction among a big portion of the electorate and will continue to whether trump is around or not. i think as we look at donald trump, we have to ask how we

actually take on the things that exist behind him that he has articulated and appealed to successfully enough to get into the white house. and i think that that ultimately requires staring all of this in the face and people standing up for the values they believe in on both sides of the aisle. and i think the republican party's leadership has been so craven in the trump era. liz cheney is such an -- she is such an extremism exception and such an honorable person because she stands in opposition to the mitch mcconnells and the kevin mccarthys and on down in the world who essentially stood by and let trump do what he wanted to do because they were too afraid to stand up for what was right because what was wrong in the short term got them votes and got them power. trump showed the gop that racism

and anti-institutionalism are effective pads to power. if we're going to get past that with our institutions intact, then the leadership of the republican party has to rebuke it in a full-throated way and also rebuke the candidates who continue to support it even if they don't appear to be as unhinged as donald trump. people like josh hawley, people like ted cruz, people like ron desantis. >> what i meant to say, tim, was that donald trump does not represent the majority of the country. that's what i meant to say. >> you know, i think to understand donald trump, you have to understand new york politics where he grew up. if you studied the racial divisiveness that rudy giuliani used, if you study even with koch did, that's where he took notes that this can work, and he nationalized a very -- you know, michael, better than anybody, i

think donald trump understood. whether he was an ideologue and believed it or not, he understood to hit a note that the other more established republican leadership wouldn't hit, and it worked. and i think that if we act like he's just a solo artist out there that does not have a whole lot of people tuned in to that, we're making a mistake. that's why the issue is not trump. the issue is what it represents. we have to deal with that element. >> you and i had a conversation the friday before the election about the movie "till." and you have such an incredible addition to my understanding of that chapter and our history. donald trump literally, on a debate stage in a general election, told the proud boys to stand back and stand by. his embrace of white nationalism, which in the republican party, it's fair to analyze it as a dog whistle. donald trump made it a feature of his political identity. >> right. >> doug mastriano, one of his early endorsees, ran on anti-semitism. he was, you know, attacking josh

shapiro's faith. do you read anything in the results that's a rejection of either of those ugly -- >> i think that he mainstreamed this, the proud boys and people like mastriano who are fringe, he mainstreamed it. and i think a lot of voters, when they saw it in the mainstream lens said, wait a minute. i don't know if i want to be that. so i think that i agree with michael. the majority of americans don't want to go there, but there is a viable portion of americans that are feeling now, i'm in the mainstream. we're in charge. and they want to keep having that kind of power. and i think that we cannot reduce their power and take the power to the decent americans, republican and democrat that debate real issues, we can't do it without confronting it and dealing with it and stop acting like it's a sideshow when they had the main stage for the last several years. >> i mean how about there are good people on both sides,

refusing to denounce david duke. why? because he was afraid he was going to lose a single vote. so instead, he's going to pretend he doesn't know -- i never heard of him. i have no idea. i have no comment. that's not -- that's not what -- >> what do you want me to do, disavow? i disavow. no, he didn't. >> exactly. >> you know, the thing i would say, you know, the one thing i think about, about the midterms is that information matters. you know, i think there was an attempt by the gop to put inflation and crime as these totems that were going to mean a red wave was coming along and that voters were so bedraggled by the economy is surrounded by criminals, that they were going to vote the democrats out. and lo and behold, i think voters were more sophisticated

than that. yeah, they were dealing with inflation, but they have jobs. the job market has been strong. other parts of the economy have continued to be strong. yes, crime has risen in some cities, but it is still well below historical trends. voters live that, and they know it. and i think ultimately at the end of the day, voters have to become more informed and more sophisticated so they can look past the propaganda or marketing that parties put in front of them to win elections. and i think this midterm showed that because there was a lot of spending on advertising around issues that i think the gop thought would move voters away from democrats, and it didn't. in fact, they hung on to issues they cared about like reproductive rights and democracy and other issues that were more important to them than those two things. >> a very important conversation. i'm grateful to all of you. michael cohen, the rev al sharpton, and tim o'brien, thank you so much for being here on a

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even though it's a good news/bad news kind of news cycle, right, many of the far-right candidates endorsed by the disgraced ex-president who embraced his hard-right policies, a lot of those

candidates were rejected by voters this week. but the threat from some of the farthest right wing persists. mike flynn is a tour across our country right now pushing those messages of christian nationalism and violence. at one recent event, eric trump told attendees that democrats, quote, want to destroy christianity, destroy our families, our children, our history. guys, this is a cognizant war in this country. i don't say that lightly. i'm not the tin foil hat-wearing guy. yes, you are. joining us now, christopher goldsmith, an iraq war veteran as well as an analyst on intelligence, extremism and disinformation. on this veterans day, we thank you for your service and your ongoing service in this battle against extremism. tell me me what's going on. >> well, this weekend in branson, missouri, there were about 4,000 qanon fanatics who met to be further indoctrinated

into this christo-fascist ideology that guys like mike flynn have been pushing. and i use words like christian nationalist, i need for people to understand that there's a different between the definition of patriot and nationalist, right? patriots are the ones that we're celebrating today, the veterans who served their country, served the american people, and are serving the constitution and protecting democracy. nationalists are people who identify closely with their nation to the exclusion of others, right? so when you put a term like white with nationalist or christian with nationalist, you're talking about people who believe in an ethno state or a religious theocracy, right? that is completely contradictory to our constitution, our democracy, and our way of life. so people like mike flynn are blurring the lines between

politics and religion, and they are making these qanon folks feel like they are the constant victims, right? that's what trump was so great at. that's why he got them to come to all these rallies and show up to the polls, until tuesday, right? but it doesn't take 50% of our country being christian nationalists for us to lose our democracy, right? timothy mcveigh was one person. the attacks on 9/11 were a relative handful of people, and they changed the course of history, not just for the united states and our democracy or way of life, but they essentially started a couple wars and sent, you know, people -- my generation to have our lives forever changed by it. >> chris, that's so profound and so profoundly haunting. and you seem -- you know, i

think those of us in the political journalism space have something to look at tuesday to read some rejection of the extremism in our politics. but i guess what you're saying is that the extremism in our country is thriving. can you just go a little deeper on the intersectionality between trump's circle and qanon and the other extremist groups? >> yes. so this weekend was a collection of dozens of speakers who are popular with the qanon movement, who are part of the qanon movement, and they understand this, right? mike flynn likes to try and distance himself. he -- you know, he gave his fourth of july -- i think two years ago, he add the slogan they got out of a movie, and he tries to say, oh, i'm not part of the movement. well, there were people all over this stage, you know, for hours and hours and hours over a two-day period who were

referencing things like, you know, democrats sucking the blood out of children and all of these crazy, obscure conspiracy theories. and flynn stands there onstage and smiles. he can't deny that he is basking in the light of this qanon cult. the reason is because this man is an expert in insurgencies. that's what he did his entire adult life was fight insurgencies in the global war on terror. he is running an insurgency within the united states. and what's crazy to me is that the pentagon, the department of defense, is still paying for his retirement. so they are subsidizing this maniac who is traveling around the country, who is getting people to adopt this christo-fascist or this christian nationalist identity and convincing them that they need to buy guns and ammunition

to prepare for a coming war against their fellow americans. >> what is, in your view, the degree of situational awareness among law enforcement, among the people tasked with protecting us from this movement? >> i mean it's a good thing that, in one sense, that not a lot of folks in law enforcement are paying attention to what's going on in qanon world, right? there are -- there's been a huge problem with the radicalization of law enforcement, but there is not evidence that law enforcement has been radicalized in the same way by qanon as they have by, like, the oath keepers, the three percenters, the militia types. but we do have the fusion here thanks to flynn where folks are being encouraged in this qanon movement to relocate out of

states that might have more restrictive gun laws to places like missouri or texas or florida, where they can more easily arm themselves and prepare, again, for what they perceive as a war against their fellow americans. >> chris, for your service to the country then and now, thank you. and for being our eyes and ears and spending some time with us today. thank you so much. >> thank you. shifting gears for us just a little bit to the war in ukraine and the jubilant scenes as ukrainian forces re-enter the strategic city of kherson after russian troops withdraw. we'll check in with our good friend, igor norv akov about what it means after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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big, important news out of ukraine just one day after russian forces retreated, ukrainian troops entered the southern city of kherson for the first time after a nine-month russian occupation. jubilant ukrainians hoisted flags and celebrated the retaking of the city, which marks possibly the biggest victory for kyiv in the entire war and deals a massive strategic and psychological blow to vladimir putin, who just a month ago triumphantly declared that kherson was part of russia forever.

joining us, our good friend igor novikov, former adviser to ukraine's president zelenskyy, and former u.s. ambassador to russia, ambassador michael mcfaul is here now, an msnbc international affairs analyst. igor, how are you, and tell us what this news means. >> well, it's amazing news. i mean it's going to be bittersweet in the end because, like, look, this is the city that resisted russian occupation even under occupation. so, you know, if we go by what we've seen in bucha and irpin and other places, i'm terriied what we're learning under russian control there. but at the same time, it's one of the two major cities that russia managed to capture, second being mariupol. so it's amazing. i think without weapons of mass destruction, you know, it's all downhill from here. >> ambassador mcfaul, that was my question for you. why don't they just leave?

i mean what does -- and if vladimir putin told his country it was a special military operation, can he leave with his tail between his legs now? >> he most certainly can, and i wish he would. and if you listen to their commentary, they keep saying we did this to save the russian army moving across the giant river on the other side of kherson. and the best way to save the russian army is for them to keep marching eastward and go back to russia. but that's not what i predict. i think he's going to dig in on the other side of the river. he made a giant escalatory move in signing a piece of paper signing kherson and zaporizhzhia is part of russia, and i don't suspect he'll back down until he tries to retake those territories. that's not what i'm predicting. i think this is a fantastic victory, but i don't think it's the beginning of the end of this war. it's one major battle won by the ukrainians. all the major battles, by the way, have been won by the ukrainians, but the war is not over yet. >> igor, on the ambassador's

note, what happens next? i know enough to know that the ukrainians are always sort of bracing for the next front, the next fight. so tell me what happened today in kyiv, what the mood is and what happens next. >> well, first of all, we're bracing for another batch of missile strikes. they will come eventually. we've learned the pattern by now. if that's the price we have to pay to liberate our people and our land, we'll pay gladly. i think the escalation of the economic war and the hybrid war is also, you know, in the fear future. we've seen some rogue politicians kind of trying to get in the way of president zelenskyy's kind of way of running things and kind of interfering with foreign policy. one perfect example of that is in the balkans situation. so that to look forward to. also it's interesting to see what putin does because he's going to dig himself in on the left bank, but there's always zaporizhzhia.

there's the eastern front, and things are going that well for them. so i think it's a moment of truth for him. you know, he's desperate to freeze this conflict, but i don't think he'd be able to because ukraine wants to liberate further and further. >> ambassador mcfaul, i think in the west, we say, oh, putin's dangerous when he wins. oh, putin's dangerous when he loses. putin's just dangerous. i mean what doesn't zelenskyy and the ukrainian people taught us about putt cnn. >> it's a great point. he's dangerous in he's losing. he's the rat in the corner. i think he invaded ukraine. he's dangerous, and the way to stop him is to stop him on the battlefield, exactly what president zelenskyy and his government is doing. and the idea that you're going to negotiate with him and you're going to stop him from doing something until he's exhausted, i just think is not understanding who mr. putin is. you will negotiate with him when he is no longer capable of

fighting on the battlefield. but i got to tell you, i watch a lot of russian tv so you don't have to, nicole. >> i'm grateful. >> what is really striking to me, and these are propagandists that i've been watching, and many of them i've known for decades. they're in a moment of hysteria, sadness, and it's clear they don't know what the next step is. they're not getting the talking points from the kremlin right now. i've never seen anything quite like this on -- and, again, this is state-controlled, putin's controlled television stations. they are very depressed right now, and that is a very good thing. >> sounds a lot like fox news tuesday night. igor, we have always, i think, felt a lot of connection to you and what your family has been through, and it's been a long time since you've asked us to do anything. what do you need? what does your country need? >> well, that's the positive story for today, so basically we need to survive the winter to

put it bluntly. so what we're going to do, i'm going to be announcing on twitter early next week this effort to kind of adapt the city environment for the winter without electricity, without water, without heat, without any help for the elderly and, you know, the fragile. so any help, you know, that you see fit would basically be greatly appreciated. look, a positive story to end today with. the number of phone calls i got today after russia released its sanctions list, you know, from the people on that list saying, god, this is the achievement of my life, this is better than any medal that i could have been awarded. i have finally been sanctioned by russia. and i think, you know, that's the clearest kind of marker that, you know, there's right and wrong. there's good and evil in this world. and we're on the right side. >> ambassador mcfaul, the results on tuesday, people don't usually vote on foreign policy. i think sadly, but that's a

political reality. but it does give president biden some more space, if you will, to continue and to sort of have the people and the congress, democratic and republican, who support ukraine to continue in the same direction. what are your thoughts about tuesday's results in terms of foreign policy? >> well, first i got on that sanctions list in 2014, so tell all your friends, igor, welcome to the club. but to your point, i would say two things broadly speaking. yes, you know, the wave, the red wave, the worry that there would be this shift and mr. trump would be a candidate right away and that would hurt support for ukraine, that has not happened yet. it may still happen. he still may get in the race. but i think it will make it a lot easier to keep the coalition together to support ukraine. that's a very good thing. but number two, and i think this is actually more important. we didn't have massive demonstrations. we didn't have a bunch of deniers with these big

demonstrations. we didn't have violence. we had a democratic process that most people have supported. that is democracy, and that is what is important to ukraine as well, to be part of that democratic world. >> igor novikov, ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you both so much for ending our week of coverage here on the show. it's great to see both of you. and thanks to all of you for letting us into your homes for another week of shows during these extraordinary times. we are so grateful every single day. the beat with ari melber will begin after a very short break, so don't go anywhere. [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] ♪♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator

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