hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in the new york. at this hour, results are still rolling in from an election in which democrats defied both expectations and history. showing that running on the coat tails of a twice impeached ex president who planned a coup against his own government isn't just bad for democracy, it is also horrific politics. right now control of the house of representatives hinges on more than a dozen races. but democrats clinch control of the united states senate with projected wins in nevada and

arizona. control of the seent means smoother sailing for joe biden and confirmation for his judicial appointees and a counter weight to the gop agenda. and a win by democrats in the nevada secretary of statep race means that election deniers have lost their bids to oversee elections in every major battleground state. it is a far cry from the predictions please by republicans pollsters and many in the media that republicans would sweep into power aboard a red wave. here is what president joe biden had to say about the election results, one of the best performances by a party that controls the white house in decades. >> well we saw was the strength and resilience of the american democracy and we saw it in action. and the american people prove once again that democracy is who we are. there was a strong rejection on election deniers at every level from those seeking to lead our states and those seeking to

service in congress and also those seeking to oversee the elections. and there was a strong rejection of political violence and voter intimidation, and there was an emphatic statement that in america the will of the people prevails. >> all of those things. the rejection that was witzed of election denialism and lies and rhetoric that has led to political violence amounts to a political earthquake and will define the next couple of years in washington. "the new york times" said a day after clinching a narrow hold on the isn't, democrats began laying plans on sunday to use their majority for a bulwark for the president and confirming his nominees and killing gop legislation on arrival and promoting their own policies to voters while the margin of control in the chamber will remain razor thin and far short of the supermajority needs to pass major legislation, it

constitutes a lifeline for mr. biden limb itsing republicans opportunity to wreak havoc or impeach him. with races still unclear, the man who sits at the nexus of that domestic violence extremism threat more than anyone to cement political violence and cast doubt on the integrity of our election and election systems, all of which voters appear to have rejected in these elections, we're talking about the disgraced ex president himself. there is news that he could announce another run for the white house as soon as tomorrow. his terrible timing for the republican party, they would love to distance themselves from him finally. after embracing his lies for years. and repeatedly reviving his political career after each and every catastrophe. even after he incited an attack on the u.s. capitol that put many of their own lines in danger. bill cassidy said when it comes

to the ex president, the gop is not a cult but he refused to rule out voting for donald trump again if he's the nominee. >> i guess i ask this. if this is the result of these elections but the republican party still has sort of the same leadership, at rnc, rona mcdaniel, and kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell of senate republicans and donald trump as the leader out there. if there is no change there, do you think that is a problem for republicans going forward? >> first, we're not a cult. we're not like okay, is there is one person who leads our party. >> do you imagine having to support donald trump again if he's the nominee of your party? >> our party should be about the future. i think our next candidate will be looking to the future not to past and i think our next candidate will win. >> and if that candidate is donald trump, do you plan on supporting that candidate? >> um, you're giving me a theoretical which i don't think will come to transpire.

because we have to be looking to the future. >> the voters rejection of trump and trumpism at the ballot box is where we start today. "new york times" correspondent michael bender is here. also joining us ashley parker correspondent from "the washington post" and charlie sykes is here editor from the bulwark and msnbc contributors. charlie, i saw you sort of snickering over that sound. they are in a box and they seem intent on getting out the tape and locking themselves inside of it. why? >> well, first of all, they put themselves in this box. this should be a voe easy question for someone like senator cassidy who voted to convict donald trump in his second impeachment and therefore disqualify him. and here is the dilemma. they've been here so many times before. they didn't walk away from him after helsinki and charlottesville and wait until after the insurrection. so the big question is, even

though they understand he's a poison and they recognize that he is now toxic politically, it is going to be simply temporary. and, look, the timing of trump's announcement is awfully interesting. because if there had been a genuine red wave, this is would have been political smart. he would have taken credit for it and the wind at his back and get in from his opponents and beat the department of justice. but given the fact that he's got this big loser label slapped on his forehead, the announcement tomorrow makes a lot less sense. and so it is going to be interesting to see how republicans react and whether, finally, after all of the years and all of these outrages, they decide to turn the page and until they do, i guess i'm still skeptical. >> yeah, i mean, charlie, just to follow up quickly. they're not trying to break up with him because he almost got mike pence killed. or because he did grave harm to

our democracy, or because as president he sought to weaponize the justice department and the irs and the military and everything else to hold on to power and control and punish his enemies. tear trying to break up with him because they lost so many offices and so many times with him. they lost the georgia special, they lost the 2018 midterms and the 2020 presidential and senate and they lost what they thought would be a red wave that would cleanse all of their political sins and you have to go back to access hollywood where republicans said in for a dime and a dollar, i'm standing by my man. they're not walking away because they're grossed out by him. they're walking away because he's a loser. >> this is important to underline. this is not about principle, or a return of conscious, this is not about a restoration of their courage. this is just simply watching politicians whose minds have

been marvelously focused by losing an election and the prospect of losing power. and it is donning on them that this will happen again in 2024. look, election deniers were defeated all across the country in every single swing state. and that is the heart of the trump that he's going to auns no tomorrow night, that is what he got. this is what he's going to demand for republicans going forward and people are realizing that extremism and election denial are not popular. as long as they thought it was winning, they were willing to look the other way time and time again. when you call mitch mcconnell's wife cocoa ciao and he insulted others and it doesn't matter because we're going to win any way. now i think they're havingp second thoughts about that. but again, will they actually pull the trigger and move ahead, will they look in the mirror and say, look, this election turned

out to be about dobbs, denialism and extremism and donald trump and we need to do something about those fundamentals or simply form a circular firing squad and try to blame people like mitch mcconnell for it. >> i've spent time in the republican party, i'm going to predict with curtain number two. let me sew you something jamie raskin said, it has some echoes that lindsey graham said in 2015 and 2016. >> when i was over in the senate, with the team i told the republicans there that this was our opportunity to deal with the problem of donald trump who had committed high crimes and misdemeanors against the people of the united states and they needed to act on behalf of the country and the constitution. but if they didn't, he would become their problem. and at this point, donald trump is the problem of the republican party. and he may destroy their party.

>> this was an interesting inflection point for congressman rask in to bring back, michael bender, because i remember mitch mcconnell is indicted because i don't have to impeach him on the the floor. but there was charles cooper wrote on op-ed in the "wall street journal" giving them legal cover for voting to impeach donald trump and be rid of him finally. you had the ten brave republicans who i think all but a couple have been purged from the house ever representatives. liz cheney the most famous of that group who voted to impeach. and then just a handful fall far short of what you needed to get rid of him. do you since anyone is looking back at that moment that congressman raskin cites? >> there is another side fts coin. even people who thought raskin had a point back then, that trump deserved to be impeached within the republican party, privately a lot of republicans were concerned about taking

that -- exactly what raskin is saying here. taking that choice away from voters and preventing him from running again, that kind of rational in large part of what trump seized on to run successfully in the first place. and this is an important point if it goes back to what you and charlie were talking about here. the way that i think about the status in the party, the republican party is kind of three layers. the donor class has long kind of turned against trump and that time and again in a very smart third -- today the parker story with another donor from virginia saying that she wants desantis or someone else other than trump. and the second is the cracks in the foundation.

whether it is new members that are coming in on this -- there this new midterm election. and the third layer and this is important to understand why trump is still the front-runner, are the voters. and trump has anywhere between a third and a 40% of the party right now that are so loyal to him, either out of respect that they could voice their concerns like no one else has before, or kind of oddly self-blame with folks who -- trump has turned all of the investigations, describing them as political hoaxes. right. he said that at every single rally, they're coming after me because i'm fighting for you. his voters are internalized that and they have his back. so even as a story in "the new york times" today, even voters at his rallies, trump rally--goers will tell you point blank he's not the best bet for republicans to win in 2024. but in the next breath will say they're surely going to vote for

him over anyone else who runs. >> and i look forward to watching all of that play out. i liken trump and the other republicans to tarantulas in a bowl. it is interesting. let me show you, ashley parker, something that chuck schumer said that has some echoes that the trump backed candidates were not good candidates. >> why did we win? first we have great candidates, they had flawed candidates. our candidates were talking about the issues. they cared about people. the incumbents have gotten a lot done. their candidates were off talking about lack of democracy and all -- spreading the big lie and all kinds of other things. second, we won because we had a really good agenda that we actually passed that helped the american people on things they cared about. and third, and this one i will

elaborate on a little more, we won because the american people rejected the kinds of autocracy that the -- some -- the maga republicans, a wing of that party was talking about. >> this was the biggest thing that the polls missed and that the analysis missed. that somehow democracy was too big and weighty of an issue for voters to understand. and the right likes to portray, especially on fox news, the elites as talking above the voters but this is an instance where fox news talked beneath the voters and talking down to them had a price. meshes understand that we live in a democracy and people came here and studies our democracy and americans used to help new democracies with their elections because we did them so well. the spectacle of what donald trump did on january 6 wasn't just about his abuse of the levers of power, it was about

turning us into a laughing stock and something to be ashamed of on the the world stage. how do you sift through the results and put the issues of democracy which were sort of carried around gently and not counted on as being a driver of how people would act last tuesday? >> well those republican candidates many of whom trump supported in the primaries absolutely were poor quality candidates for a general election climate. and that was bourne out in the results and talking about democracy, one thing is fascinating, as mike pointed out, you have trump voters who will tell you they're sick of the chaos, and the controversy, he's not the best candidate, but if he's the nominee they would vote for him over president biden. but where you see the softening in that group, the first time we really saw it in the post trump presidency, was when the january

6 hearings were occupying sort of prime time and prime psychic space in the national consciousness. and you had those voters, again, they weren't saying they were going to vote against trump or they didn't think he was a good president or they regretted their pro-trump vote in 2016 or 2020. but in talking to someone who runs the focus groups with trump republicans and establishment republicans what they said was there was a softening. they didn't like looking back at the 2020 election. they wanted to look forward. they didn't lightning what they saw at the capitol on january 6 and this was this one moment where they were willing to consider another candidate. and so that is how these issues of autocracy, of democracy, of this deadly insurrection on the u.s. capitol where president trump encouraged his supporters to march there and when you have a general election, you have to win suburban women and

independent voters and that is where they were more likely to be receptive to a democratic argument. or almost just opposed to what they were ready to move beyond in the republican party. >> charlie, let me show you congressman jim clyburn's comments about the issue of democracy as a driver of voters. >> i started saying in october of last year when i was speaking to the council here in my congressional district, that i thought that the time had come for us to step outside of our comfort zones and make some decisions about preserving the integrity of the this democracy. and i saw that happen last tuesday. democrats, republicans, independents, coming together to preserve this pursuit of a more perfect union. that is what happened.

stepping outside of our comfort zpoens. a lot of republicans and a lot of independents who looked uncomfortable voting for democrats but they did. because they decided to put their country's future above the politics of the moment. and i am very proud of that, i am so proud. i talked to my three daughters, my grandson and we were ecstatic over the results of last tuesday. >> so, charlie, i remember and i think you were on the show that day, and i remember and congressman clyburn was talking about the issues in the context of the voting rights legislation. and i remember when you made those comments. and i also appreciate what he's saying there about republicans and independents who uncomfortable voting for democrats, did so because the situation was so dire. that was also a message carried to the electorate, beyond what

ashley is talking about, the public january 6 public hearings and then to the fall when she started endorsing democratic candidates. what do you make of everybody missing how salient and tangible and one thing nobody mentions is the mockery of the political violence carried out against speaker pelosi's husband. it is easy to say families should be off limits and i'm sorry anything happened to him and republicans were incapable of doing that. >> i think it is a sign of their arrogance, no accountability. but what is describing is exactly right. this is this -- at the last minute it was a revulsion from what they were seeing from the republicans. and you know, this is really -- i think it is greg sergeant in "the washington post" has a great piece about the quiet vindication of liz cheney who lost her own seat. she got out of her comfort zone, endorsing abigail spamberger and

elissa slotkin who won in very close races and her theory was if you have four or five or 6% of republican voters who decided they would put the country over party, that it would make a difference and it turned out she was right. it is not necessarily a huge number but it is enough to peel off, to make a difference in many of these swing elections both for the senate and for the house of representatives. and i think that in people's minds, the voters are complicated. they're not necessarily always linear. but there was a connection between the efforts to take away abortion rights and take away voting rights and it became kind of a theme that this party was dangerous, that it was taking away something fundamentally american and that as a result overrode concerns about inflation or gas prices or all of the other things that we were told by the pollsters were actually going to be driving this election. >> yeah, i mean, what michael

bender, i sort of spent time in the republican party, we're not capable of much reflection after we lose elections. we typically double down and that is how trump happened. but what reflection on the failure of the economic attacks is taking place on the right. i think voters also realize that, yeah, inflation sucks, it sucks here and all over the world but the republicans are telling me something i already know, it stinks, not how to fix it. >> i don't think there is a lot of look back right now happening on specific policy issues. there is a little bit of finger pointing on the senate level rick scott saying they need a more positive message and mitch mcconnell shooting back saying that a large part of the democratic attack ads in the 2022 cycle were aimed at rick scott, policy platform. there was a lot of disagreement over what -- what should have worked there.

what republicans need to do, though, when your party needs to do is try to figure out how to get back on the same page. so what charlie was saying here, the exit polls, the a.p. shows that they ask the question among republican voters about whether there was a quarter to make america great again movement or not and about a third of the people, a third of republicans said they were not. and then when you look at some of these races that they lost, they came up short, you see eight to 10% of republicans voting against, not voting for the republican candidate. almost all of those falling in the nonmaga supporter category. that is a similar number though what trump had nationally, the kind of republican support he was getting in 2020 before biden and you can't win elections nationally or in a close battle ground state when you are

shedding that much support within your own party and we haven't seen trump make any kind of outreach in repair those wounds within party and, two, i -- it is very, very unlikely we'll see anything like that tomorrow night. >> it is a fantastic prediction. michael bender and ashley parker thank you for starting us off. charlie sticks around. when we come back, the trump grift was very much a thing while he was in office. receipts from his d.c. hotel show how much he was charging foreign parties foreign countries to stay at his hotels. all while hoping or seeking to influence u.s. policy at the time. the chairwoman of the house committee with those receipts joins us next. plus, former vice president mike pence saying something everyone has been saying now for two years. that the twice impeached ex-president's words an actions around january 6 was reckless and dangerous.

the timing of his acknowledgment of reality comes as he has a new book out, something he might have thought to share with the january 6 committee or the doj. all of the secretary of state candidates lost in presidential battle ground states including the state of michigan. that chief election official will join us. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. ♪ from santa claus, indiana to snowflake, arizona

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today an even clearer picture is emerging of how the twice impeached ex president

sought to use the office for his personal financial gain. nbc news has obtained receipts showing saudi arabia and qatar and turkey and malaysia spent hundreds ever thousands of dollars at the trump hotel at the same time they were seeking to influence u.s. foreign policy in their favor. this is according to investigative findings released by the house committee on oversight and reform. the congresswoman carolyn maloney saying these documents sharply call into question the extent to which president trump was guided by his personal financial interest while in office rather than the best interests of the american people. joining us now, congresswoman carolyn maloney of new york. it is great to see you. your committee is literally producing the receipts of the depth of the corruption of the trump presidency. take me through this latest disclosure. >> well, our committee determined that based on documents that we have been trying to get for three years, we finally got them with a court

decision and an agreement and we started receiving them in september, but these documents show that six different foreign countries spent well over $750,000 in the trump d.c. hotel during times when very serious and sensitive foreign policy issues were being discussed while they were visiting with the president. this was coming to his hotel, it showed that some -- the rooms, the most expensive room was over $10,000 and they were renting $10,000 rooms so we are concerned it raised very serious issues. our committee findings raise concern about the extent that foreign governments are trying to influence foreign policy through contributions to financial interests of president trump. and we need to know whether he was serving the people's

interest or his own personal financial interest. so today we've sent a letter to the archivist, requesting the presidential records around all of these incidents and really information about any foreign spending in trump businesses during his presidency. >> do you have any concerns that some of the documents the committee is seeking in the multiple investigations are among the documents that he's got tied up in the criminal investigation into the documents at mar-a-lago. >> well that is a very serious concern. we are still concerned about those documents and we're still looking for them. we're still trying to get a full accounting. we have not gotten a full accounting or any sort of certification that we have all of the documents. there are always rumors there are certain places, we are following up with subpoenas and with other efforts to get those documents. >> let me read a little bit more of what the committee's investigation has revealed.

what is in public now. the saudi ministry of defense spent $85,961 during a one week stay in march. that is that $10,000 suites. representing several of them. and the saudi revenues for the trump hotel came during a period when saudi arabia and the uae were lobbying the trump administration to support them during her blockade against their economic rival qatar. for their part, qatari officials spent $7,491 from late 2017 through mid 2018 according to the over sight committee findings. are you able to assess whether it was a get in the door kind of thing to stay at his hotels, that was part of the package of coming in to meet with jared kushner or donald trump or whoever they were trying to influence. or whether it was something that he actually required of them? >> well, that is why we're

looking at all communications between the president and the president's offices and these foreign countries. and that is what our letter asked for, for more documentation. we did get the -- this is the first time we've gotten actual numbers about foreign expenditures in his businesses. and what we're looking at is ways to prevent this in the future. to remove any influence of money, especially from foreign governments. it is against the law, the emoluments clause is you could not take any money from any foreign government. so i personally believe that president's should not be conducting business while they're in the white house. they should be conducting the people's business and not running their own private firms. but we're looking to raise the conflict of interest charge to make sure this conflict doesn't happen in the future. >> congresswoman, are any of the republicans on committee helping you with these investigations or

are they not interested in solving that question you just laid out? >> they have not participated in these investigations. they have participated in other reforms that we've passed for the post office, making monumentual reforms and preserving the ablts ability of post office to serve the people in the future and the veterans association -- the veterans administration we worked in a bipartisan way there. helping the veterans modernizing the processing of their claims. so there are some areas where we do work together. they are not supportive of our investigations into mr. trump. >> no surprise. had to ask. congresswoman carolyn maloney thank you very much for spending time for us and for committee's work. it is quite a public service. we are grateful to talk to you about it. >> thank you for highlighting it today. we appreciate being on your show. thank you. >> thanks you so much. as we head to break, a quick

check on an important meeting in indonesia for joe biden meeting with xi jinping. the first in-person talk amid growing u.s./china tensions. the in three-hour meeting they addressed a number of topics including ukraine and north korea. p president biden warning xi if they did not do more to rain in north korea, the u.s. would up its presence in the area. we'll keep an eye on the g 20 events an trip this week. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. continues after a quick break. with ancestry i dug and dug until i found some information. i was able to find out more than just a name. and then you add it to the tree. i found ship manifests. birth certificate. wow. look at your dad. i love it so much to know where my father work, where he grew up? it's like you discover a new family member. it's the greatest gift. now on sale at ancestry.

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it took him nearly five days to know the results were clear on election night, but doug mastriano, the most maga-like candidate conceded in his own race for pennsylvania governor over the weekend. the trump-backed far-right 2020 election denier lost bigly to josh shapiro by about 14 points. more than 750,000 votes. admitting defeat is something that the ex president never did, hasn't done yet. we don't think tomorrow's announcement is his plan to finally do it. instead it incited an deadly insurrection and his vitriol encouraged for the hanging of his vice president and prepared to do that. so here is what mike pence is saying now about trump's actions

and inactions on january 6 when pence said endangered him and his family and everyone at the u.s. capitol. >> the president's words were reckless. it is clear he decided to be part of the problem. again, i can't account for what the president was doing that day. i was at a loading dock in the capitol where a riot was taking place. >> but why wasn't he plaguing -- making these calls. >> that is a good question for him. >> joining you us now, luke broadwroughter and harry litman is here and charlie is still here. harry litman, it might be a good question for an interviewer to ask donald trump, but it is a very good question for mike pence to answer for the justice department or the january 6 committee. do you think they have any new interest after seeing this media interview to sell his book? >> yes. you definitely -- it is a very, i think, kind of hedged mike

pence kind of answer, very passive. but they have every reason to want him in front of the grand jury, the grand jury that is looking into january 6 materials. i don't think that he'll have a great defense for going there. but i think they will seek to get to call him. that will be one of the final moves when that happens, i think. that you'll know a decision is imminent. but he's definitely grand jury material. >> luke, the january 6 committee did a very careful job in presenting mike pence's actions on the day of the insurrection as courageous, as in a category of their own, not in concert with donald trump. and as not a surprise that the day january 6 the committee provided evidence that on that day his chief of staff brought in the secret service and said tomorrow mike pence will be in danger. it was clear from radio traffic that they produced and entered

into evidence that those moments where he's evacuated down to the loading dock that he described were very scary and very dicey. what do you think as someone who is in the capitol that day when you listen to mike pence talk about it? >> yeah, i thought mike pence's comments were striking. i mean, this is the most straightforward and the harshest he's ever been about former president trump. we've heard from mike pence's top lieutenants already. mark short and craig jacob. but we've never heard from him himself. he has not agreed to come in for a voluntary interview with the january 6 committee. but here he is now for the first time on television saying exactly what you thought. one, he was angry about what trump did and, two, that trump had sided with the mob and he decided to be part of the problem. and i think to hear that from mike pence, it was the target of this mob and the target of trump's ire was compelling and i

think it will prompt the january 6 committee to want to hear from him again. >> yeah. >> as of right now they have not issueda subpoena to mike pence, only to donald trump. but now that he's going out there and doing these interviews on this topic, it has to make them want to get him under oath. >> charlie, i think it is different to have reporting to work on a book and then tell that story and i know even that angered most of my viewers. but there is no permission structure for an elected official who is entire salary is paid by we the people to hold back any information of an ongoing bipartisan investigation into a deadly insurrection. what do you think should happen? >> well, i agree. i wish you would have said this earlier or said this under oath to the january 6 committee but agree with luke, it is striking to hear him say this as directly. and you could see that mike pence is going through some

things. he's wrestling with breaking with donald trump much like many of his fellow republicans. he's kind of working his way through all of this. but again this is one of the most striking moments to listen to one of the most loyal of donald trump's lieutenants. i mean somebody who had just, you know, gone along with absolutely everything to show his absolute fealty to this president to realize we're now at the point that he's talking about the president being reckless. the difference between breaking the law and upholding the law. so it is -- it is striking. whether it makes a difference at this point, i don't know. but every time something like a mike pence speaks out, it gets permission to other people with knowledge within that circle to also speak out. and that may be one of the more significant elements here that there are other people who are sitting back looking, okay, should i say the same sort of thing, should i talk about this. if mike pence is willing to do this, what is my excuse for not

doing so. >> charlie, i never disagree with you. i could not disagree with you more. i think it is absolutely incomprehensible if you believe -- this is what mike pence said. he said he endangered me and any family and everyone in the capitol. you don't hold that inside of your soul until david muir asked you that question. i don't buy it. and if it is true, and i don't doubt that is how he feels and maybe it took him two years to formulate the sentence and say it out loud, it is the same thing with mitch mcconnell not attacking the violence against his wife and he called her cocoa chanel and i can't understand why they let trump smear their family members. explain it to me. >> look at what ted cruz was willing to go through. and i don't disagree with any of

that. it is frustrating to watch all of this. on the other hand america needs converts and people who see the light. and it may be -- it may be late but this is a good thing. but again, i take your point when you think about all of the people who have known about donald trump's corruption, who have known about his venality and his erratic behavior before 2020 and decided not to tell the american people about it and not to tell members of congress, not to share this information waiting to put it into a book and it is no longer effect ittive. these people will have to answer to history for that. if all of the people had connell forward during the second impeachment trial, might it had made a difference. we don't know. we'll never know. and now we face the prospect that donald trump is going to try to restore himself to the presidency, that he will be in the oval office again and once again this man will have access to the nuclear codes.

so i guess i'm leaning towards the, look, you know, strained times and dangerous times need strange bedfellows. if he's going to speak out, let's get everybody on the record and break this wall of silence. >> and luke, back to what the january 6 committee might need from him is the reporting nbc news is reporting this and i believe you and your colleagues have as well the final report their working on it all about donald trump. it is not this, you know, 10-volume treatis on everything that went wrong. it is focused on donald trump. >> right. yeah. i know they're trying to keep it to a readable length. they did such a voluminous investigation. we talked about the thousands of witnesses they've interviewed but they don't want to distract from the idea that donald trump is the cause of the mob. if you start blaming the guy who

was supposed to protect the door nor the armed mob that donald trump sent to break through the door, they think you're taken your eye off the ball and you've been misdirected. so i do expect there will be some emphasis on law enforcement failures in the report. but it won't be the primary focus and i think vice chairman liz cheney has been very clear about that. that you tonight can't get distracted in different lanes and you have to stay focused on the cause of it all and that is donald trump. and as of today, they have to make a big decision. you know, did he not show up for his deposition today at 10:00 a.m. like he was supposed to and now they have to decide what they do next. are they going to end this congress seeking to hold him in criminal contempt and like steve bannon pursue a jail sentence for the former president. >> he was busy, luke, he was painting the red wave blue. harry, i have to get you on the report on two big new stories. one about the supreme court

opening the door for the committee to see kelli ward's emails and phone records and another, new reporting in the washington post about trump's motives in absconding. we have to sneak in a quick break first. afterwards we're back those two big stories and everyone on our panel. don't go anywhere. on our panel. don't go anywhere. two new ihop lunch and dinner menu items for twice the goodness, twice the flavor, and twice the choice. sirloin salisbury steak and all-natural salmon. perfect for lunch or dinner. only at ihop. download the app and earn free food with every purchase.

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i had a bad relationship with my student loan. the interest was costing me... well, us... a fortune. so, i refinanced with sofi. break up with bad student loan debt. to help, we're paying off up to a million dollars of student debt. sofi get your money right. as we teased before the break, the supreme court today ruled in favor of the january 6th select committee, granting it access to the phone records of arizona republican chair kelli ward. she's among more than a dozen

so-called alternate electors subpoenaed this year by the select committee. notably two conservative justices noted that they would have granted ward's request to block the records from ever reaching the committee. that would be justice alito and clarence thomas, whose wife ginni thomas we learned over the summer was deeply involved in that very effort, working to encourage fake electors all over the country, including in arizona. we're back with luke, harry and charlie. harry, talk to me first about the supreme court decision. >> really simple. all they want is the records of her phone calls and all she said was i have a first amendment right not to give them to you. it's a very weak claim. it's just about the numbers themselves, and they're doing an important ongoing investigation. the news is i think, as you said, nicolle, that two of the justices not only would have said the case has merit but they would have granted a stay, which requires among other things finding she probably would have

won. that is foreboding for future litigation involving the january 6th committee. it's also, given what you said about ginni thomas, about the closest that we've come to the kind of -- her personal involvement and a stronger claim for justice thomas to recuse. that's the headline. but 7-2 gave it the kind of back of hand that it deserved. >> i mean, if justice thomas had voted to allow the phone records, i'm not sure that a million reporters would want to know the answer to the following question. is ginni thomas's phone number in kelli ward's contacts? i mean, harry, why can't anyone address a perception crisis at the supreme court involving clarence and ginni thomas? >> anyone can, but the only person who can do it effectively is justice thomas. they happen to have this rule that says each justice determines for himself or herself. and so you know, it's beating a dead horse as far as thomas is concerned. it may not be like that in the

future, but for now it's up to an individual justice. and i think the calls for him to do it only make him dig his heels in deeper. >> i want to come back to you, harry, on the "washington post" reporting about trump's motives in the classified documents. but i've got to come to you, charlie, on the supreme court factor. the first exit polls that i saw on election night were about 60% of everyone who voted voting against the supreme court. the shift in the supreme court as a political issue is the most seismic and underreported result i think from tuesday night. and that is that the supreme court in republican politics for 30 years was this major motivator. and republicans held their nose and voted for republicans to have a say on the supreme court. it is now a dead weight. it is a cement block on the republican party, in large part because of clarence thomas's rulings and the things he says about his rulings. and justice amy coney barrett's sneering and snide comments about criticism of the court. they are the only institution

without a press corps or camera that watches them work. what do they think voters would think about that? >> well, i always defer to harry on legal issues, but i would like to beat this dead horse about clarence thomas just a little bit. i mean, if there was any real concern about the institutional integrity of the supreme court, the justices would take clarence thomas aside and leave him there. and tell him look, you need to recuse yourself from these cases. the conflict of interest is too egregious. it is too -- it raises too many questions about the integrity and the independence of this court. and this is the real tragedy of chief justice john roberts, who saw it as his mission to preserve the integrity of the court. but when it came down to the dobbs decision and the overruling of roe vs. wade, he was not able to persuade a single other justice to go along with a middle road, a compromise. and i think that it is impossible to think about this

election without taking into account the backlash against what this court did overturning a right that had been enshrined in american law for 50 years. >> and the way they did it with such zeal. harry, i do want to come to you. does it matter what trump's motive was? "washington post" is reporting that the motive was greed, not to serve his business interests, in taking, hoarding and lying about returning classified national defense information from the white house to mar-a-lago. >> i think the way you framed the question says it very well. look, it doesn't matter legally. what people will say is motive doesn't matter. that's true. but it's bigger than that. it may well be a good thing if he didn't in addition to everything he starts with commit treason by selling secrets about iran and china to other people. but the crime, the most important crime here is about obstruction. it's about people coming to him and saying do you have these records and he's got them in his

drawer, we now know, and he's saying no. if he does it for the essentially trumpian reason that screw you, they're mine, not yours, i'm the state, you're not, and that's the way it goes, that's not -- that is a motive. that's the motive of his being contrary and, you know, confusing the national interest with his own. but surely they do not have to prove and they shouldn't have to prove that he had some other motive, which would just be another crime of trying to, say, sell the secret. >> so this is where we are. it's a good day when trump stole classified national defense materials and lied about returning it but didn't commit treason. it's a good day when we land in that sweet spot. luke broadwater, harry litman, charlie sykes, thank you for spending time with us today. up next how voters helped keep election deniers away from running future elections in key battleground states. we'll bring you that story after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere.

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i want arizonans who are just regular folks, republicans, ask yourself, that's the guy you want in charge of your elections? somebody who was part of an insurrection? and thinks it's okay for armed people to stand to intimidate folks next to ballot boxes? that's how america's democracy is supposed to work?

doesn't that override party labels? >> turns out he was right, it does. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. on the ballot last week were not only the national races that ultimately will determine control of the branches of the u.s. congress but voters in many states cast their ballots for a statewide office, a more local one, one more vital to the health and future of american democracy. the position of secretary of state. officials who served as a state's chief election officer with responsibilities such as maintaining voter data bases, registering voters and overseeing the administration of elections. who the president, former president was describing there was the republican nominee for that very position in arizona, a man named mark finchem. he's a member of the oath keepers. finchem was seen outside the u.s. capitol on january 6th and made election denialism the centerpiece of his candidacy to be secretary of state. in a sigh of relief for

defenders of democracy everywhere finchem was defeated by democratic candidate adrian fontes. and it was not just finchem's extremism that voters rejected. all of the election-denying secretary of state candidates lost their races in presidential battleground states. that is good news. in addition to finchem there was kristen karamo in michigan. she lost to democratic incumbent secretary of state jocelyn benson who will join our program in just one moment. kim crockett in minnesota was beaten by democratic incumbent secretary of state steven simon. and in a race called just this saturday jim marchant was defeated by democratic candidate cisco aguilar in nevada. all four of those republican candidates for secretary of state were endorsed by the twice-impeached ex-plnt. and they ran their entire campaigns on his big lie. "washington post" reports this. "some pledged to decertify the 2020 result, although election law experts said that is not possible. others promised to decommission electronic voting machines,

require hand counting of ballots, or block all mail voting. their platforms were rooted in trump's disproven claims that the 2020 race was rigged, and their bids for public office raised grave concerns about whether the popular will could be subverted and free and fair elections be undermind in 2024 and beyond. installing loyalists as secretary of state in battleground states, that was the plan. that was all part of donald trump's plan to reshape our country's election system in his favor so he can more easily steal the next election. trump reports this. "suddenly secretary of state races became premier attractions, elevating once sleepy bureaucratic down ballot races to the national spotlight. donations, especially from alarmed democrats, quickly flooded the races. nearly $50 million was spent on television advertising in four states -- michigan, arizona, nevada, and minnesota. and democrats had a 10-1

spending advantage." nevada's secretary of state-elect cisco aguilar spoke this morning about how his constituents were concerned about what republicans were saying. >> we spent a significant time meeting with voters in the rural communities who have, you know, a strong voice about what our state should be and where we should go in the future. they were concerned that somebody was going to unilaterally walk into the secretary of state's office and do something to take away the voice of many nevadans. and when you try to silence a community, that's when we're going to stand up and fight back even harder." >> that's what they're doing all across the country, voters. a broad rejection of election deniers for the position that oversees our elections is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" domestic correspondent nick courseeniti is here. his byline is on that "times" reporting we read from. also basil schmeichel, democratic strategist and the director of policy program at hunter college. and michigan's democratic secretary of state, who we have never described as bureaucratic or sleepy. jocelyn benson is back.

so we have been talking to you since the embers of the 2020 election were still very much burning hot on the right. and i first want to congratulate you on your win. michigan's a very tough state. tell me how you're feeling. i guess not quite one week in. >> i'm extremely grateful to the voters who recognized what was at stake in this election and reacted accordingly. we saw the highest turnout election in our state's history, people voting from all backgrounds, all walks of life, to defend democracy alongside us -- alongside of us. and it puts us in a strong position going into the next cycle. but certainly really shows through the voters' voices that dismantling democracy is a losing political strategy. >> which we didn't know -- i feel like you and i thought that could be and should be but we didn't know it would be. how do you feel that the voters of michigan and frankly

everywhere that sort of had this conversation as part of the general election conversation, and i can't think of anywhere it did not, voters see it as the way you just described it. >> yeah, and they saw everything was connected. trying to make this about quote unquote the economy was also rooted in our ability to vote and our ability to hold elected officials accountable and be a part of economic decisions that affect all of us. voters were able to connect the dots and understand that with their vote they would be impacting the future of their voices and their votes on a vast array of issues from reproductive choice to economic freedom and everything in between. so that was really gratifying. it shows that voters are paying attention. and in michigan we also had a ballot initiative where voters by casting their vote could expand and protect their right to vote in our state constitution, which was another way where they had agency over their vote. they weren't just voting for people. they were voting for issues and making a direct impact on their future. and they reacted accordingly.

>> i don't want to embarrass you but i'm going to put this up. you won 55.8% of the vote against kristen karamo. in three of the four states where election deniers were defeated, i believe it's the secretary of state candidates that had the highest vote count. do i have that right? yeah, the democratic secretary of state nominee was the state's leading vote getter. these are the others that ousted -- or defeated or voted against big lie advocates. michigan, minnesota, arizona and nevada. what was the -- what in your view was -- i mean, you talked about voters connecting the dots. i absolutely agree with that. that if they're not going to protect and honor the person you voted for why do you think they're going to do anything to fix your economic pain and anxiety, which is very real, that they're not the ones to fix it? governor whitner tied all that together. she also tied together taking away the constitutional right to abortion that we've enjoyed for

50 years. when you look -- when you just peel out the secretary of state races, though, and see that the vote count is even higher than some of the very high vote getters like your governor, governor whitmer, what do you think it was about touching this once sacred, not political post of secretary of state? >> well, as my new colleague cisco aguilar said earlier that you quoted, when people feel that their voices are going to be taken away they will stand up and fight. and that is what we'd always hoped. that's what we talked about for the last two, maybe even three years. but what voters responded with accordingly was showing a tremendous demonstration of strength. and strength and belief in americans' democracy and our rights to hold our elected officials accountable and really reject those who have been lying and spreading this misinformation, knowingly to support their own political agenda. voters said no, we're not having it. you're not going to come for us. you're not going to come for our reproductive freedoms. you're not going to come for our democracy. and we're going to have something to say about it.

and i've said for a long time my hope in this moment is that we emerge in the next few years with a healthier and stronger, more robust democracy than ever before, than we had back in 2016 and 2014. and that truly is the direction we're headed in with this election. that we've got a chance to ensure continually that people recognize the power of their voices, the power of their votes, which is the best antidote to really the strategy on the other side to diminish democracy and make people feel their voices don't matter. here in this election voters said no, our voices do matter and let us show you how. >> nick, your story, i think it broke -- or was alerted on my phone saturday night, and i was in the street, and i stopped and i read the whole thing. i want to read some more from what you wrote. jim marchant, the republican nominee in nevada, had helped organize a national right-wing slate of candidates under the name america first. with marchant's loss to mr. aguilar all but one of those america first candidates were defeated. only diego morales, a republican

in deep red indiana, was successful, while candidates in michigan, arizona and new mexico were defeated. mr. marchant not only repeatedly claimed that trump had won the 2020 election but he pledged that if he were elected trump would again be president in 2024. you have been on this beat since the -- i talked about the embers. they were still flames of the 2020 election. and i just want your perspective on that sort of two-year stretch of echoing these claims from a defeated president who hadn't yet left office through the deadly insurrection and then carrying these messages of decertifying the 2020 election through their prime general election campaigns and then losing. >> yeah. i think what we saw as secretary benson mentioned was that voters really rejected the idea of a backward-looking, we're still obsessed with you know, the 2020 campaign, that's not paying attention to the issues at the forefront of american politics right now.

but when you go back and you look at this effort, and to organize this slate of america first secretary of state candidates, started by jim marchant, who in an interview with the "times" said that he was approached by allies of former president trump to run for secretary of state and to kind of recruit this group and that by doing that and taking over these positions, you know, they could ensure, quote unquote, election integrity, which obviously is a kind of code word among these people for a different type of oversight of american elections. so when that started, i was even wondering if voters would know what a secretary of state does. you know, there were so many times i'd be out on the trail or i even was out during the georgia primaries with jodi heiss, who was another one of these america first secretary of state candidates who lost to brad raffensperger in the primary. no one was certain what this was all about. but i think when you saw nearly $50 million of television

advertisements about secretary of state candidates, you know, former president trump returning to the trail, keeping falsehoods and lies about the 2020 election alive, it kind of brought this issue back to the forefront. and even amid an economic climate and issues like abortion taking a hold on voters' minds, they really rejected that idea that anything would mess with their vote. and remember, while republicans have been kind of told not to vote by mail by some of the more right-wing candidates, it's not a zero sum game. there's still plenty that vote by mail or enjoy some of the different voting options. so if some of them are told you're not going to be allowed to vote or even the more outlandish plans like taking away election machines were to be put into place, voters just clearly rejected that as one step too far. and i think a two-year record of doing that is pretty clear to tell the voters by election day. >> let me -- nick mentioned the ads. basil, let me show you one of the ads that amy mcgrath's

group -- and she was here when she launched that group. this is one of the ads that her group had running on tv. >> here in washington they don't build monuments to secretaries of state, but maybe they should. donald trump thinks this is the weakest link in the chain because it's an office no one pays attention to. so he's been recruiting election deniers to run for secretary of state in crucial swing states this year. people who will do whatever he asks when they count the ballots in the next presidential election. we have to stop this from happening. >> so basil, republicans made a really cynical bet, that that, what she just said, was too hard to follow. i mean, whenever you treat voters like they're too stupid to understand what she just articulated, trump is recruiting election deniers to rig the vote so that he can have a successful coup next time, it turns out voters understood that loud and clear. and to the earlier point, i mean, democratic secretaries of state in three of these four battlegrounds were the highest

vote getter in three of those states. >> right. it's been a huge civics lesson for the entire country over the last two years. and really just the sort of -- encapsulate the theme of this conversation. the message, the takeaway really here is voter information and voter agency. can we give the voters enough information to make decisions about who's on the ballot, who they should vote for and why? and you're absolutely right. at the beginning of this segment saying that donald trump was creating the infrastructure so that he could be returned to the white house on the shoulders of his supporters. and voters were aware of that, were awake to that, and acted accordingly. in the short term we -- i think a good thing was done. but i have to say that we're not out of the woods in the long term because in the states where secretaries of state are not elected they are appointed by governors. so it's important to note who the governor is and why you're

voting for that person and what choices that candidate may make for who they put into the office. secretaries of state might also oversee things like incorporation of businesses or non-profits. that's important because if you look at the work that attorney general tish james is doing in new york with the trump organizations there is -- it's really important sort of who is overseeing all of those processes and who gets those incorporation documents and how they are -- how they are managed going forward. these are incredibly important jobs that yes, they always go under the radar. with respect to boards of elections some of those decisions in terms of who's at the board of elections, those are oftentimes made in a partisan fashion, some democrat, some republican. so who are those individuals who are getting those jobs and appointing those people to positions? what i'm also encouraged by on the other hand is that in the more -- with these elections

there are more and more folks of color getting positions in the hierarchy of state legislatures. so they can at least create legislation to be able to protect the voter. we see that in pennsylvania. i think michigan, jocelyn, also. in minnesota we have folks of color in leadership positions. all of these seats are incredibly important to make sure that we still have a functioning, effective democracy. >> nick, i want to come back to you real quick on just the blast radius. i feel like your body of reporting could be described that way. there's a big lie and then there's the blast radius of everything that it did. it's the -- i don't know. almost 500 voter suppression laws masqueraing as integrity laws being pushed through 48 states. the election deniers championed by donald trump for secretary of state. there were the more obvious things, election deniers champion for governors of arizona and whatnot. but what is your assessment almost a week out from election day of sort of the picture of the blast radius from the big

lie right now? >> well, i think one thing that's really important to note is what's happened in state legislatures as well. there have been democratic victories in state legislatures, especially in battleground states like secretary benson's. hadn't had full democratic control in 40 years. and democrats were able to flip both chambers. now, that means that new voting laws could be passed in a state like michigan to either expand access -- granted, that was done through a ballot proposal. but also even maybe just allow election officials to count ballots a few days earlier so maybe we'd have results even sooner and make their lives a little easier. in other states we saw either republican advantages either narrow like kind of in arizona or in pennsylvania, which could also prevent some of the more outrageous i think voting proposals to come down. you might see a few more moderate republicans say no, i can't get on board with potentially passing a law that would allow us to apoind our own slate of electors. so i think when you look at the state legislative map that has

really kind of changed a lot in terms of how 2024 might look. >> and that was a message that was delivered from the current president, former president obama delivered that message on the stump. and you really heard democrats after 2020 urging their voters to pay attention to those races. so interesting. we've benefited from having all three of you at the table and part of this conversation. regularly over the last two years and beyond. so thank you so much for helping us sift through it today. nick corasaniti, basil smikle, and mitch secretary of state jocelyn benson. thank you so much for starting us off today. when we come back the very latest on the gubernatorial race in arizona where katie hobbs is maintaining a lead over election denier kari lake, whose path to victory is getting teenier by the day. plus as republicans grapple with their future brand new reporting in the "new york times" about how the twice impeached ex-president wanted to sic the irs on his perceived enemies people like former fbi director

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at the top of the hour we showed you how badly election deniers performed on election day, especially in those secretary of state races. but today, six days after the election was held, there is one more race with a ahigh-profile election denier that has yet to be called, and that is of course the arizona governor's race, which nbc news is characterizing as too close to call.

it's the race between democratic candidate katie hobbs and election-denying maga loyalist kari lake. hobbs maintains a slight lead over lake, but as ballots continue to be counted lake's potential path to victory has narrowed. joining our coverage nbc news correspondent steve patterson live in phoenix, arizona. and tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark as well as an msnbc contributor. he makes a star turn on last night's "the circus" on showtime. take me through what's happening, steve, and tell me what the latest is. tell me what to expect. i know there's a press conference later today there. >> yeah. let's start with the lead that hobbs has over lake. it's about 26,000 votes or so. so about 1%. still far too close to call of course, although that may change when we hear more from this presser, about 40 minutes from now the sheriff and election officials scheduled to talk to the media, although we usually get the vote dump, which is the common vernacular here, a few

hours later after that. that's usually when we're going to hear more about what that constitution of votes is and the makeup of the constitution of votes. so the problem with lake is while she's gaining ground, right? so every day or so she's got a couple more votes in her favor. the returns really have been gop-friendly. the problem is there just simply isn't enough of vote left for her to really make up that difference unless she makes up significant gains in the next few days, tonight specifically. so looking at what she's got to deal with, about 160,000 votes left in the state. less than 100,000 in maricopa county. maricopa county will unequivocally decide the election. it has the lion's share of the vote left. but she hasn't been hitting these key thresholds that would allow her to really stay neck and neck with hobbs. a few days ago she would have liked to have hit 53%. yesterday she would have liked to have hit 55%. she's been slightly below that

every day. and every day she does that means the next day has to be bigger. so you're talking about tonight she needs to be around 60% of the vote that comes in in this building behind me, which is very difficult to do. there's also a slight margin that could trigger an automatic recount if it's within that half a percentage point. if that happens, we won't know who arizona's governor is until probably about mid december. but in a few hours from now it's going to be very decisive, maybe even decisive enough to call it. that's obviously not what lake wants but we'll see what happens. >> so interesting. let me do something fun. i don't get to say this very often here. this is how "snl" portrayed this race saturday night, tim. >> kari, it seemed like this was a race you'd easily win yet it's been a real nail biter. you and your opponent are currently neck and neck. >> that is because the maricopa county officials are incompetent, and it's my belief that the election is rigged and the results should be thrown

out. >> it sounds like some new numbers are coming in, which has you taking a narrow lead over katie hobbs. >> which is why i have always said this is a democracy, trust the system, trust the voters. >> i spoke too soon. another batch of votes just came in and you are now losing again. >> because our system is broken and it always has been. >> i'm sorry, i misread that. you're actually back in the lead. >> but thankfully now it's fixed. look, i am 100% confident i'm going to win this election. and i won't stop fighting until every vote is counted and then some votes are taken away. because who do arizonans want leading them? katie hobbs, who's hiding in a basement, or me, kari lake, who lives right here in this beautiful pool of vaseline? >> it's so perfect. and that is how seamlessly the maga candidates move between elections being rigged and they're untrustworthy and therefore the root of this

extremism threat in our country which tragically on january 6th led to the insurrection. and thinking our elections are perfect if they win. i mean, that is not too far off from how they talk about something that most people view as sacred. >> no. kari lake might be a liar and anti-democratic but that soft focus, i am a little jealous of, if you guys could do that for me one of these days, nicolle, i'd appreciate it. look, we were there -- look, i was there on election night at the arizona republican election night party. and she comes out, you know, down 18 points at that time, down more than joe biden had been in the early vote, in the mail vote, and gives a speech that is actually even more ridiculous than the "snl" version of her. she's so absurd it's hard to parody. you know, talking in one speech about that -- you know, that same thing, how this is rigged and how they're out to get her but how she's going to win

anyway. it's nonsensical. and i think this has been the race that people have been watching the closest and the most danger because -- excuse me. because she is the most dangerous and the most committed to this bit in a way that's the most similar to donald trump. right? and so we spent all this time all year talking about the election deniers. and this is not to compliment any of them, nicolle, but it is to say that pretty much the ones that have lost have pretty much conceded or they've just disappeared quietly into the night. and that is because donald trump was in an election denial category of his own. you have to be uniquely deranged to lose an election and go out and perpetrate this lie over and over again, you know, without any glimmer of acknowledgment that you don't think it's true. gathering thousands of people, you know, to charge the capitol on behalf of this lie. i mean, that is psychopathic. and kari lake has, you know, that vibe to her, that she will

be willing -- we will see in the coming days. the numbers look very, very, very bad for her. i know that it's not called. but it seems very likely she's going to lose. and we will see if she does what donald trump did or if donald trump is just unique in this regard. but i think that is why people are watching this so closely, because she has been the most shameless parroter of the election lies. and that's a competitive category since there have been a lot of people parroting the election lies. >> steve, have the other republicans in the races that have been called, conceded? did blake masters concede and mark finchem? steve, can you hear me? >> oh, nicolle -- >> masters -- >> i didn't know you were speaking to me. >> i'm sorry. do we know if the republicans who lost in the kelly race or the secretary of state race, have they conceded and is there

any sense regardless of how this goes, if hobbs will concede if she loses or lake will concede if she loses? >> yeah, we have heard concessions. and i should say that to my right maybe about a half mile away or so, maybe a quarter mile or so, there's a pocket of about ten protesters and there are sheriffs positioned on the roof on top of the elections building behind me. >> oh, wow. >> these people are ready for either a concession or a non-concession. they are fired up by lake's rhetoric. and that's what we've heard really consistently on the ground since we've been here. that rhetoric has really thrown fuel onto the fire for arizonans who feel like they are adhering to what she's saying, which has been hot and heavy on an electorate and a supervisor board that is primarily republican. bill gates, who runs the elections here in maricopa county, is a republican. and he's been talking about how the elections have been fair, how the workers have been working 18 hours a day and still lake almost daily has been

talking about how she doesn't feel like this is a fair process, that these workers have been slow-rolling the vote because the votes that are coming in are expected to be more gop favored. so we've heard really gearing up for this moment. and the point about will lake concede, we're not sure. every time she's been asked that question it has really been met with, you know, kind of a hand in the face and saying that she's going to win so it shouldn't matter anyway. so she will accept the election because she's going to be the one that's victorious when it comes to all the elections and all the votes that have been counted. so what's going to happen in the next 24, 48 hours? we're not sure. >> we're grateful you're there covering it for us. steve patterson and tim miller, thank you so much for being here with us today. when we come back, there's brand new reporting in the "new york times" about just how far the twice-impeached ex-president was willing to push the limits of his actual presidential authority to punish people he perceived to be his critics and enemies. that new reporting is next. don't go anywhere. go anywhere. r kids moved in with us...

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so take a deep breath, look around, remember where you are, because today could be the last day in a good long while in a world where donald trump isn't running for president. let that sink in. we promise we won't show it to you here on this show. but consider this. seemingly every day still years after his last presidential term ended we're getting new evidence, new reporting, new investigations, new proof that illustrate donald trump's

fundamental lack of fitness and honor and integrity for the office of the presidency that he held for four seemingly endless years. remember people like his former fixer michael cohen described the ways that trump sought to use the justice department to target political enemies. you'll recall lots and lots of investigative journalism having to do with trump's flirtation with using the united states military to try to seize voting machines in the aftermath of an election he lost. so now there's brand new evidence, brand new reporting of trump weaponizing government agencies to serve his personal and political ends. "the new york times" is reporting this for the first time. former chief of staff john kelly says that donald trump wanted to "get the irs on officials with whom he repeatedly fought." from that new "times" reporting, "mr. kelly said that among those trump said we ought to investigate and get the irs on were the former fbi director james comey and his deputy

andrew mccabe. his k of trump's desires to use the irs against his foes comes after the revelation by the new york times this summer that mr. comey and mr. mccabe had both been selected for a rare and highly intrusive audit by the tax agency in the years after mr. kelly left his post at the white house." joining us now the reporter whose byline is on that piece of reporting. michael schmidt, "new york times" national correspondent and msnbc national security contributor. rick wilson also joins the conversation. co-founder of the lincoln project as well as the host of the "enemies list" pod cast. and myles tailer's here, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security and co-founder of the political party forward. mike schmidt, take me through what you're reporting. >> so what we were able to do is learn from john kelly about how donald trump was -- what he was doing and saying behind closed doors about how he wanted to use

the irs or the justice department for revoking the security clearances of people that were saying and doing things in the media or publicly that embarrassed the president and the president thought were his enemies. we know that donald trump wanted to use his justice department against people. we know that he's wanted to have the security clearances of former intelligence officials who had been critical of him revoked. but we know far less and had known far less about what trump was saying or had said at different times about the irs. and we had learned and reported over the summer that jim comey and andy mccabe had been the subject of these highly unusual and invasive audits. those audits occurred in the years after kelly left. kelly went to great lengths to talk trump off of these ideas, to ensure that they did not happen. and by the time he left did not

think that they had occurred. now, we do not know that trump played a direct hand in the comey and mccabe audits. all we know is that trump had talked about it before, that they had happened after kelly had left, but what happened in between is still something we're trying to figure out. >> so mike, we have the trump tweets where he's tweeting -- he accuses both men of treason, which is punishable by death. he's also tweeting specifically about their finances, about their book deals. you're reporting from speaking to general kelly that that was one of the things that trump was mad about, make sure they don't earn money. so we have trump's intention made publicly. we have the two men selected for what you describe as an autopsy without the benefit of death. and we now have john kelly's testimony. what recourse is there to see if all those three things tie together directly? >> well, we know that there was

an inspector general's investigation that began after we reported in july that comey and mccabe had been audited. that investigation to our knowledge has not been completed. nothing has been released about that. the irs commissioner at the time of both audits was a trump political appointee. he has since -- his term at the irs has expired. biden has not reappointed him, did not reappoint him to be there. this investigation, this i.g.'s investigation is ongoing. there were some statements off of the hill today from members of congress, you know, senator wyden saying that he was going to try and reach out to general kelly to look into this further. so that's sort of what we know. the problem -- one of the greatest problems that donald trump has had is that there's a reason why the president of the united states should not talk publicly or privately about any

type of investigations, and that's because if there were to be such an investigation there would be questions about the perception of why this investigation occurred. in our country we believe that everyone should be treated equally under the law, and when the president says things in public or it comes out that he said them in private, that he was, you know, wanted to use the powers of the federal government to his political ends, it raises questions about why did these things happen. why was james comey and andrew mccabe the subject of audits that as you were saying, you've described as known amongst tax lawyers as autopsies without the benefit of death? were they truly randomly selected for them? less than 10,000 people were selected for them out of the 150 million-plus tax returns that were filed in both years that the men were audited for. so you know, trump has created

these questions because of his behavior. he accused him of treason. but we still don't know, you know, what the results of the inspector general's investigation are. >> miles taylor, we don't know, but general kelly's responses to the "new york times" for the very first time go a long way toward answering the questions that mike is posing. donald trump tweeted it. donald trump behind closed doors sought to put them in motion. and the irs randomly went out and pursued the most aggressive audits that exist in our country by the irs against jim comey and andrew mccabe, randomly? i don't think there are any coincidences quite like that in this country, miles. >> well, michael's reporting is a bombshell. and general kelly would not have said something like this just off the cuff. i would suspect he believes there's something much more nefarious here given the prior

reporting about comey and mccabe's irs audits. and i asked andy mccabe about this just a few weeks ago, in october. and i asked him what was the state of this and what was his opinion about this having happened to him and comey. and his quote to me was, "it defies probability." so what you said, nicolle, that was before michael's reporting, is this was extremely suspicious, that both the ex-acting director and director of the fbi that trump so assiduously targeted while president were then hit with audits. and i also think this kind of points to what you said at the top end of the segment, nicolle. as depressing as it was to say that this might be the last day we get without a donald trump running for president, this story tells us what to expect from a donald trump second term. and it's one word. it's revenge. that's what you should expect in a donald trump second term, is he will carry forward efforts like this to go exact revenge against people he perceived to

be his political enemies. i know it firsthand. after i came out against trump he said the justice department was going to go after me. and guess what, two weeks later my agents received a letter in the mail from who? the justice department. this is what he does, is he tells his lieutenants to publish -- to punish, rather, dissidents in his orbit or that have left his orbit. so it doesn't surprise me, but again, this is a bombshell report from michael. and the connective tissue that we need to show that there was the possibility of the president of the united states again weaponizing the powers of the office to go after perceived political enemies. >> rick wilson, you and i are from another era in politics where this was enough to sink anyone's political life, to be caught corrupting the irs after being caught corrupting doj and after being caught trying to corrupt the united states military and taint the careers of people like general mark milley and everybody else that served under him. but you know, to miles' point,

this is a bombshell. you've got someone who really has said nothing. he he hasn't said much, he hasn't written a book. and now you have him pointing at donald trump and saying yeah, he wanted this, he wanted the irs to audit his enemies comey and mccabe. >> you know, nicolle, to weirdly quote the '80s conceptual artist jenny holzer, abuse of power comes as no surprise. and in trump's world abuse of power is definitional. the only thing that's shocking about this is that it's really not that shocking. this is a guy who tried everything he could to go after political enemies. and the thought of him having a second term to do it where they will have no restraint and where they learned from their mistakes, where they do things like this schedule f idea of making almost all government employees at a certain policy-making level vassals of the white house, this is a pregame show for what could be a very ugly moment. i mean, look, just as miles was

investigated, we had trump ordered mark meadows -- mark meadows gave bill barr an opposition research package about me, reed gale and sue stevens of the lincoln project and said go at it. these people do things by reflex. the revenge that drives all of them is something that on the one hand it's not shocking anymore but it should be a warning to people that once stephen miller and kash patel and steve bannon and the rest of these people are back in the white house with donald trump we'd better all batten down the hatches because they will abuse power at a scale, a level and intensity that we've never imagined. >> all right. no one is going anywhere. on that note a quick break for us. we'll all be right back. we'll all be right back.

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and everywhere in between. we're holiday ready with fast and reliable delivery, serving every address in america. the united states postal service. we have so many of our cabinet members here. i see my generals. generals are going to keep us so safe. >> all i can do is ask my generals. >> i have generals that are great generals. these are great fighters. these are warriors. my generals and my military, they have decision-making ability. >> they were never his. times change clearly. from my generals to the country's generals. now talking for the very first time to let the country and world know just how unfit donald trump always was to be our president. we're back with mike, rick, and miles. i have to ask you, because i

think viewer always want to know why someone chooses a moment to fell the truth about donald trump, which i think was so obvious from the outside. why is general kelly talking now? >> so, i think to understand general kelly, tough understand that he is not a partisan politician. he hates partisan politics. he would have worked for hillary clinton if she had asked him to be her secretary for the department of homeland security. and he is someone who has only really spoken out when he's seen donald trump say or do something that he thought was flat wrong or truly unfair and tarnishing to someone. and he saw last week where trump said he sent the justice department and fbi into florida to help ron desantis in 2018 stop the election from being stolen from him.

those are donald trump's words. and i think john kelly looked at those statements and knew that they were not true because he was managing the white house at that point and managing -- trying to manage the president's dealings with the justice department. the -- kelly thought those types of actions, like sending the justice department and the fbi into a place to help in an election would have been inappropriate. and he felt that he was willing to answer questions from me to right the record on what he thought trump was saying was wrong, and in the course of those conversations, answered a few questions about how donald trump wanted to have his enemies investigated. john kelly is not someone who has garnered the spotlight. he has certainly not someone who believes in trumpism or is a

trumper. but he's also not someone who is a member of the resistance and wants to get himself enmeshed in politics. he is someone who i think occasionally will answer factual questions. >> miles taylor, i think this is a constant tension that the people who have given the most, and the kelly family has certainly given the most in service of this country, you might think would care the most when they see democracy trampled. just help me understand this inner struggle for someone like general kelly. >> well, you know, i won't speak for him, but i think michael said it all. since the first day i worked for john kelly, it was very clear, he was apolitical to a fault. he was, you know, not a hardliner maga republican. he wasn't a hard core progressive democrat. he served his whole career in uniform, and he view his service to the country.

in fact, when we all swore or oaths, which you do when you get sworn in as a public official, he would make clear to everyone swearing an oath, you are swearing an oath to a constitution, not a man. that's what john kelly said when he took the oath in the oval office to become donald trump's chief of staff. he said i want to make clear of how special this is of swearing a oath to an office. i now look back at that moment as a moment of foreboding. so i think he views the role of pub lake servants and ex generals like him. he and mattis and others signalled they have spoken out privately when they think it's going to count. in the case hoff this reporting it's potentially one of those moments that will count on the

eve of him announcing he's running again. >> rick, not for nothing, and mike kind of mentioned it, he's knocking down one of the new lies. the right-wing folks are going nuts of the new poll that it's ron desantis' party now. he's got 64%. trump is in the 30s. one of the things general kelly knocks down in this interview with mike is this idea of what trump tweeted last week, that he sent the fbi in to fix the race. trump lies more easily than he seems to breathe. rick, that was for you. i think we've frozen rick wilson. miles, you're able to handle that question. this reporting, the scoop within a bombshell is that trump's only thing he can muster in his

spitting mad class last week is that desantis is only there because of him. what john kelly's speaking out does is it knocks down that is completely b.s. >> well, and nicolle, i'm just going to add one simple thing to that, and i think the ex president, twice impeached disgraces ex president as you often refer to him, to have his former chief of staff, his top official, his right-hand man come out and dunk on him in this moment tells you everything you need to know. if his own officials are not going to support him and think he's corrupt and incompetent, he does not we serve to be in that office again is, it's people like john kelly and others signaling it's time for the torch to be passed in the republican party and the country to move on. >> mike smith, thank you. rick wilson, i'm sorry for technical difficulties.

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>> thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts rite now. happy monday. >> happy monday. thanks, nicolle. we are still counting votes in the midterms. counting the house votes. news broke, democrats