about there really came through in the presidents very careful description of it and then that question, i could see that he was not supposed to answer but he clearly -- we're not getting the russians at this and we will respond in kind with, you understand why. dan de luce thank you for that reporting, i appreciate it. that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts starts right now, good evening, this is a live look at mar-a-lago where any moment we'rere expecting donald trump announce he's running for president in 2024. nbc news is now reporting that trump has officially filed his paperwork for that run and we're monitoring that speech. if and when trump does make that announcement, we'll be sure to

let youun know. they're alsot keeping a cle eye on a developing situation involving a russian-made missile that landed in poland today, killing two people. poland, of course,ll is a nato ally so this has huge implications in the role ongoing in roukraine. president u biden immediately convened an emergencyme meeting with other worldge leaders in bali. he said world leaders would determine next steps and what happened. he also said it was, quote, unlikely, that the missile was fired from russia. we willd have more on that developing situation at this on hour. we're also still continuing to get results from races that have yet to beul called in midtm elections. one that could determine the balance of power in congress and texas. and we'll give you updates of those races as they come in. steve kornacki is at the ready. and t we're speaking live to

gretchen whitmer, the first time prime time since elected but as i said, donald trump is expected to announce his third consecutive run for president of the united states. the republican partye is at wa with itself over who's to blame for the party's fairly dismal election performance in a year where gop leaders believed they wouldad take control of the sene and win as many as 60 seats. last week, voters unambiguously rebuked donald trump's extremism. 28 of the 29 republican candidates who lost competitive races in this election have either denied the president won the 2020 election or cast doubt on the results. just last night, one of the biggest o proponents, republica kari lake whopu lost her race t democrat katie hobbs. of course congress, democrats were able to retain control of the senate. and they may grow their majority if they manage to beat another

trump-backed candidate herschel walker. in the world, it is the most surprising thing and least surprising thing t in the world that republicans are letting trump run their party but that is where we are. heated debate. today in the senate, republican rick scott announced he'll be challenging mitch mcconnell for hisin position as gop senator. it's worth remembering that rick scott was the guy in charge of getting republicans elected to thepu senate. senator scott was the one who chose to embrace trump and hand democrats key victories in places like pennsylvania, arizona and new hampshire but rick scott is not chastened by that experience, in fact, he thinks he deserves a promotion. it's not his fault and it's apparently not a trump's fault either. today when announcing his

candidacy for republican leader, rick scott released this letter saying despite what the arm chair quarterbacks on tv will tell aryou, there is no one pern responsible for our party's performance across the country. i knowe there's no shortage of people who are eager to point fingers and assign blame here ie washington. but i won't bee one of them, is unproductive and a, massive wae of vetime. the one person he's talking about hereon is donald trump an pointingmp fingers at him is according to rick scott, a massive waste of time. okay, rick scott. and then there's the fight happening over in the house. today house leaderus kevin mccarthy who is not exactly a skull for donald trump and his allies, the man challenging kevin mccarthy for the speakership is republican congressman andy biggs. one of the people who reportedly requested a pardon from donald trump for his f role until tryi to overturn the election results

on january 6th, 2021. todayry in a closed-door vote o the republican congress, leader mccarthy managed to lose 31 votes to andy biggs. and kevin mccarthy will now have to convince allil or most of the defectors to back him as speaker, in order to win a vote in the full house which comes in january.me there is almost zero chance that republicanse will be able to solve the dispute. trump for hisso part is unconvinced his influence had much to do with his party's losses. he's instead blaming republicanb leadership for not being more enthusiastic about his losing slate ofic candidates. trump was fairly blunt about this over b on truth social.th it's mitch mcconnell's fault spending money to back great republican candidates instead of blake masters and others was a

big mistake. he blew the midterms and now everybody despises him. and now that guy, that guy, donald trump is back announcing as the apparent front-runner for his party in yet another presidential election. joining us now is "the new york times" chief correspondent peter bake,s" he's also the co-all authorize of "the divider: trump in the white house 2017 to 2021." peter, thanks for being here on this nightin as we talk about donald trump and the role in his party. iis sometimes wonder if donald trump wasn't announcing tonight -- well, let me start over again, because donald trump is announcing tonight and because for allnn intents and purposes he is the front-runner, he's still effectively the head of the ffparty, do you think th changes the sort of wagon circling we'ref seeing right n inside the gop, where there's even a debate as to whether trump should bee the head of t party? >> well, he would certainly like

that, alex. i think what he's trying to deny is changing the subject from last week. so instead of changing that republicans lost the congress andan a big red wave, we're talking about donald trump in again. and of course, there's nothing that donald trump likes better than people to be talk about donald trump.e obviously, he's in a weakened position, compared to where he had been.o republicans are blaming him for the losses last week. that they attributed to his poor selection in the primaries, pumping out support for the electiont deniers. he's hoping, basically, that he can once againth dominate the conversation and dominate the stage at a time when people like ron desantis are looking pretty strong onki the political right. i think he'sca got ron desantisn his rear view mirror capping up in a pretty fast way and obviously ahead in key states. >> donald trump loves everybody to be talking about donald trump. mitch mcconnell, i imagine,

doesn't like everyone to talk aboutke donald trump. what does mitch mcconnell do tomorrow when he is asked about trump's candidacy. >> we know that mitch mcconnell didn't care for donald trump. we no that mitch mcconnell thinks donald trump is an albatross on theis republican party. that r the last three elections that the republicans have lost in mitch mcconnell's mind is because of 2016, 2018 and 2022. and with the tie, and the democratic majority, he's going tode focus on that and use thats an excuse not to talk about donald trump, what the truth serum with mitch mcconnell would tell you that he's a disaster to the party and would like for donald trump to go away. he's not probably going to say it thatin bluntly, but that's wt he thinks. >> you bring up georgia, trump's own advisers were on television

saying, sir, we urge you not to announce until after december 6th. if herschel walker loses and raphael warnock is re-elected, do you think trump pays a price for that? saying, oh, yeah, that's for the party but doesn't do anything? >> well, for confirmation, because the control of the senate is now hinging on that race it wouldn't be quite the same thing as it would have bee the decider, right? the one race that was going to tell us who's going to be the majority, it would definitely comeou back on former president trump. remember, he did this course two years ago when he basically haunted two races in the special runoff in georgia that did back shift control fromat republican to democrats. he couldn't have cared less. what he cared about were his own grievances andwe his own race a

claims that something bad happened and of course he pp didn't. he's notf a party man. never a party man. remember, he switched parties five or six times over the he years. he has no loyalty to the republicanya party. he demands loyalty from the republican party. it doesn't matter that there's a special electionat coming up in georgia. he wants i to change the conversation to his own race and what happens next. >> i think it's worth noting, peter, as we talk about trump's potential ouster from the republican party whichst may no come tore pass, right, the reas they're not evenhe debating thi has nothing to do with principle but winning. trump did not single-handedly inject the strains of imtolerance, racism, nativism, belligerence, and a durable sympathy for anti-democratic behavior into the republican

party. there's no effective daylight in terms e of the policies and reay the reddic of the gop and not trump and trumpism. so if you excise trump and a trumpism, what does that leave you, inoe terms of the actual republican platform, beyond the nativism, beyond the xenophobia and racism, it's hard to know they'll have that conversation.t do you get a sense they're aware of that? a >> i think a lot of republicans are aware of that. aar lot of republicans believes the partyns needs to rebuild itself after trump. but they don't know when after trump is going to be. as long as he's on the stage there's no such thing as an after trump. january 7, 2021, despite the attack on the capitol, despite his own lie with the election that lede to the attack on the capitol. they're not willing to, you know,wi abandon him then, what' going to make them abandon him?d well, you're right, when he becomes an albatross, when they

see him as a loser, not a winner, when they see him causing more harm than good, that's when you seem republica needing to drift away. the question is whether or not republicans do.s he still has awful lot of support among the base and a lot of political figures are nervous to do anything to aggravate him because they don't want to aggravate that base. i remember interviewing once a republican senator who did not like donald trump. i said, why is it you don't say anything? because i did a poll in my state and 88% of the constituents support donald trump. and that's always been the case if that changes, if they see that i the base is drifting awa from donald trump, that's when they will begin to drift away themselves. >> that is d an open question, mean, you wrote in your analysis of what's happening here, i think a very relevant point is there's the republican party of it all, and then there's the trump of it all. doestr it work?

does the carnival barking work for the third time? and i'll reade the quote, if ty be instructed to keep wondering that trump instructed that show prent prent s on air nor 14 yea, we're playing essentially the same story line over and over again ase the audience kept coming back for more. so when you take the microphone at the mar-a-lago estate like trump is doing now, trump has rebooted. listen, we're rebooting a lot. you do wonder if you can repeat the chate-filled rhetoric, the dearth of actual solutions, the divisiveness, the exhaustion, theve sort of moral exhaustion, physical exhaustion, i speak for all of us, one wonders whether there's really traction for that in the yearre 2023 and 2024? >> there's no question, you're

right about that politics, at least in the modern era have a certain half life, right? after a certain amount of time, you n know, trends tend to burn themselves dsout. in the audience, the voters begin to look for something new andfo fresh. i think that's what you're seeing, early polls suggesting a boom for desantisng within the republican party. yeah,bl republicans still like him, they agree with him, his policy, doing a good job even. but they realize there's a diminishing factor here that in fact they'reg tired of him. there's o a fatigue setting in d maybe it's time to draw a new generation. i think that's the biggest danger. it's not going to be a sudden snap that republicans say we're done with you, go away. we can't stomach you anymore, it will be a slow corrosion of support saying yeah, it's time to move on, when that happens, i don't know, that's a big question looming for 2024, does it happen in time for 2024?

or does he manage to keep the show on the air, long past the story lineg has kind of worn itself out. >> thatli is the question, declining and ultimatest cancellation of theul trump sho time will tell, "the new york times" chief white house correspondent peter y baker. always great to see you, my friend. thanks for your time tonight.ti as trump is speaking right now in mar-a-lago, republicans find themselves one step closer to gettingms control of the hou. for more on that we go to steve kornacki at the big board. steve, what is the latest, my friend? >>t, yeah, big coil from the decision desk, california, we now project ken calvert, the republican candidate, three decades incumbent has survived the challenge from will rollins, this is a w win for republicans. again, we've been monitoring this dwindling list. with this victory, republicans now have 217 seats, they need 218 for majority. so republicans have moved within

one seat of securing the majority. here's the list of uncalled races here. youd see a whole bunch of them are in california. there are several races in california whereve republicans e leading,ep that path to 218 is really opening up clearly for republicans. they find themselves one seat away with a number of different ways to geter there. >> steve kornacki, never receives well, it doesn't escape us that new york and california may ultimately be instrumental in handing republicans the control of the lower chamber however margins matter. steve, if we get any more calls this hour, please stand by and let usan know. we'll get right back to you. thank you as baalways. we have much more to come tonight as we wait for the once future of the republican party to make his big announcement. including the beginning of the campaign headquarters at the club. ea and michigan governor

gretchen whitmer joins us for the first time prime time interview since winning the election. stay with us.

♪♪ i told them, i said if you just keep a little bit lower standard, you're going to have a big victory. they said, let's win by 40 seats, let's win by 50. if you win by two seats be happy but she's on her way to another

country right now. she's been fired. but we always have known that this was not the end. >> that is donald trump speaking at mar-a-lago. we are expecting him to announce his candidacy for the presidency in 2024. that announcement should come anytime now. and we'll bring it to you when we have it. in the meantime, trump has called today one of the most hopefully one of the most important days in the history of our country. history, of course, will be the judge of that. but we await donald trump's expected 2024 campaign announcement. as soon as he has that, as soon as he says, i am running, we will bring that to you. but the candidate of what is being described as the vibe of this campaign, this coming campaign, both of those things may look similar. "washington post" reports that trump wants to, quote, re-create the underdog vibe of the 2016 campaign. trump's advisers tell the paper it's expected to have a smaller staff and smaller budget

compared to his failed 2020 campaign reportedly because trump felt it had too many people and spent too much money. as critical of that selection, trump just started interviewing campaign staff a few days ago. his advisers were hoping they would delay the announcement from the one this evening so they could set up a more robust contest. we do know that kelly an conway is coming back but we have learned that jared kushner and ivanka trump have no plans in this campaign. and they aren't the only ones, there are reports that trump advisers have doubts whether they want to be in another campaign for donald trump and u.s. presidency, as they deal with subpoenas thanks to trump and erratic ties after losing the last election. okay. just moments ago, at mar-a-lago, trump declared that he is, yes, running for president in 2024. this is what he said. let's take a listen.

>> in order to make america great and glorious again, i am tonight announcing my candidacy for president of the united states. >> joining us now is the reporter who helped break that news about trump's imminent campaign, the great ashley parker, senior national political correspondent for "the washington post." ashley, thank you for being here tonight. it's official, trump has announced he's running for president. and i believe the slogan may be described as ma gaga, make america great and glorious again. it doesn't roll off the tongue. who knows. ashley, what can you tell me about, this sounds like a hastily planned announcement with not a lot of staffing. i think some people would likely be concerned that trump thinks

he needs fewer people managing him in his campaign. can you explain about the decisionmaking here and how much chaos we can expect? >> sure. so this is a campaign, if you've been covering him, following him for a while, talking to his people, you knew it was all but inevitable, you knew that donald trump was almost certainly going to announce a third attempt at the presidency. but the timing has just gone back and forth, alex. there was this mad rush on monday night before tuesday's midterms to get him not to announce it. he sorted decided that morning, one of his final campaign stops at rally in ohio maybe he would announce it then. he had to be talked down. republican officials, instead of spending the day trying to help senators and republicans elected throughout the country, they were trying to get trump to announce the campaign rally. and there was talk to do what he

did now, to at least after the georgia runoff. that is how trump operates. that was true in 2016, that was you through in 2020 and certainly true in the presidency that looks like that chaotic maga even to his style, is going to be true in the third attempt to the white house. >> ashley, there are literally a trillion reasons why donald trump should not have announced he was running for president again. but his mind, there should be two reasons why he should announce at this juncture. one of which is the investigations into donald trump at mar-a-lago january 6. we'll talk about those later in the hour. and the other reason, and i know this sounds absurd, because who announces they're running for president just to troll someone else but that's what sounds like is happening here. the dynamic in play is governor ron desantis in florida is coming off big wins in his state. he's seen as inheriting the trump throne, maybe as a

usurper, how much of an election that hasn't been fully called now to steal ron desantis' thunder, and do you think ron desantis actually cares? >> so, i was talking to a top trump adviser last night who basically said he couldn't wait. not that he was so excited. he couldn't wait, although that may have also been the case but he backed himself in a corner and at this point had no choice but to announce. in fact he thought that much of his party like the democrats and the media that it was going to be a red wave. he announced that night and he would be announcing. and then you see someone like ron desantis and we have reported that the two people who both trump finds the biggest threat and sort of the most angry with are ron desantis and actually governor glenn yunk kin

glenn youngkin of virginia. if you take that as a perfect storm, it was feared this was a third campaign kind of careening to this announcement, whether or not his advisers or even the former president himself really thought it was particularly advisable. >> i mean, when you talk about desantis not pledging fealty or being adequately respectful, i believe ron desantis is literally flying planes over mar-a-lago. do we have this visual -- yes, saying you lost again, donald. #desantis 2024. okay, i said ron desantis is flying it. we don't know who is behind the banners but that's not ring-kissing behavior if it is coming from the desantis camp. and what's emerging here is a story line that the losses effectively, or the nonwins of election day, republicans, like

ron desantis, are trying to peg that on donald trump. donald trump does not seem to be bothered by that. or at least the argument he's making is that they weren't really losses, but wins. do you have an understanding of how much the results of the election have bothered -- actually bothered trump behind closed doors? >> well, certainly, two things. one is he -- he is savvy about politics. he does understand winning and losing. and this was not a win for republicans, any way you cut it or what, you know, donald trump has said tonight. but what bothers him more than that, fundamentally, he doesn't care about the republican party. he's willing to burn it to the ground and recently became a member of until ron was president. what bothers him more is the results that ron desantis got tuesday night, winning by 19 points in miami-dade county.

and blaming glenn youngkin, he believes the media coverage of him has been too favorable and positive. again, it's his personal grievances that really animate this president, not the idea that mitch mcconnell might not get to be majority leader after all. >> yeah, nothing will show ron desantis and glenn youngkin like a hastily organized election. ashley, intrepid reporter, thank you as always, ashley. >> thank you. we'll get more on the election, and what effect it has on the doj probes, that is probes, plural. plus, the democrats who faced the forces of trumpism and beat them. michigan's newly elected democratic governor gretchen whitmer how she did it and how democrats should do it. she joins us live, coming up

next. program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? the three ps of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54, what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? also $9.95 a month. i just turned 80, what's my price? $9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions.

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♪♪ donald trump promised to deliver a historymaking announcement today. maybe he did. he might not be the presidential candidate most resented by members of his own party in

recent memory. after a week of nearly unprecedented democratic victories in congress, washington republicans have been doing a lot of finger pointing and wound licking. and several have decided the buck stops with trump. fox news and "wall street journal" are calling him a loser. but trump isn't the only republican facing blame for weighing down the ticket. republicans in michigan lost pretty much everything last week, the state house, the senate and the governor's mansion. they lost the governor's seat by a staggering near 11-point margin. it's the first time in 40 years democrats have taken control of every branch of michigan government. the state republican party is now blamed its failed nominee for governor tudor dixon for tanking all the down candidates. dixon ran on a platform that echoed trump, election denial, anti-choice and parents rights policies plus jokes about the

foiled kidnapping plot against gretchen whitmer which is one of trump's favorite topics. this is what the republican from the state party had to say. tudor's efforts focused largely on republican red meat issues in hopes of inspiring a 2020-like showing at the polls. there were more ads on transgender sports than on inflation, gas prices and bread and butter issues one that could have swayed independent voters. we didn't have a turnout problem. middle of the road voters simply didn't like what tudor was selling. tudor's performance cost us around the edges in the close house and senate races and we're out of majorities because of it. the gop is out of majorities in the state of michigan. the democrats literally have them all because governor whitmer unlike tudor dixon offered voters a decidedly different vision for the future one where reproductive rights are safe guards and concerns about safety and the economy are actually addressed. and now the newly re-elected

governor, governor whitmer, has the power to act on the rest of her agenda. joining us now is the michigan governor gretchen whitmer. governor, thank you so much for being here tonight. and congratulations on your resounding win. >> thank you. so good to be with you. >> i got to ask you, because it's the thing that just happened, and one wondering about its effects on american politics, donald trump just announced he's running again in 2024. and in many ways one could look at the race you had against tudor dixon as a resounding indication that trumpism doesn't work for the people of michigan. what do you make of trump's announcement tonight? what of that? what of the implications of that? >> well, i can just tell you this, you know, he carried the state of michigan when he first ran for president. and we had an overwhelming victory, just this last week. we did something that's only been done four times in the last 130 years.

and we swept everything. i ran a well -- you know, with a larger margin than just four years ago. and we've flipped both claimers of our legislature, and i think really it is about electing leaders who are focused on solving problems, not creating them. and certainly not reaching culture wars. we know that people expect their leaders to deliver. whether it is better roads, fixing the damn roads, or improving outcomes for our kids and schools or just making sure they've got clean drinking water and basic reproductive rights. that's really what was front and center here and that's what contributed to the overwhelming result. people want problem solvers, not culture warriors. >> they also want, at least it seems, a governor who is ready to go on the offense for matters that voters care about. i think for people who don't know, eve before we got that draft opinion of the dobbs decision, you were

preeverybodively really concerned about women's reproductive freedoms in the state of michigan, and you sued to challenge the constitutionality of this 1931 zombie law that would effectively kick into place should roe fall, you were prescient, and you were talking about democrats are always playing defense, and trying to explain not what republicans paint them to be. you went on offense and i wonder if there's a lesson to lever about that. i talked to governor newsom in california. he said, they need to put republicans in the corner. how do you do that offense die namic? >> i think it's the people, showing up and using every tool at your disposal to live your values and deliver for the people that you serve. when justice ginsburg pass and

we awe amy coney barrett on the horizon, we got serious and what tools. and in michigan we were poised to go a pro-choice state to a state that would go back 91 years making it a felony, no exception. so i used every tool in my toolbox. and empowered a constitution which was critical in the election that just happened a week ago. and now in michigan, we have enshrined these rights into our state constitution. now, this shows, i think, if we are eager to jump into the fray and unapologetic about living our values and focused on solving problems, that is how we create a path that others can find themselves on. and i think this was really important in this election. it was not having gerrymandered districts. it was putting choice before the voters. and it was ensuring that we have a vision where there's an opportunity for every person.

and that's really what people should demand of their leaders. >> i've got to ask you about the gerrymandering thing. because that seems crucial to democrats that actually want adequate representation in the state. you look at neighboring wisconsin where republicans have gerrymandered those maps to just a breathtaking degree and it really seems like an anti-democratic force. should all democrats effectively embrace independent commissions to draw congressional district lines at this point? is that what needs to happen? i mean, i know in the past, democrats have done their own share of gerrymandering, but this sort of modern era of gerrymandering which effectively anti-democratic force. do democrats owe the american people? >> i think the american people should insist on it? i think what happened in congress is voting rights

protections. we went to our constitution in michigan a number of years ago, in 2018, made it easier for people to vote, took gerrymandering away from the legislature and created this commission. now, you see the result of that. when there are fairly drawn districts you get a legislature that is much more reflective of the people they're supposed to be serving. it should be the people choosing their legislators not legislators choosing their constituents. unfortunately, we see gerrymandering across the country. we in michigan have made huge steps forward. we've enshrined voting rights. now that we've got a great legislature, i anticipate we'll be able to do more on that front. it's one way that people took back the power it was a citizens group that came together. certainly, i'm hopeful in other states if these are tools that they have will emulate it because this is how we protect our democracy. >> i just want to ask you one question about choice. the state constitutional

amendment that protects a women's right to choose, that passed in the election. the 1931 zombie law is still -- i believe, it's still on the books. you have said you want to get rid of that. even though it's no longer operative, i think a lot of american women would like to see the zombie laws torn up and thrown away in the dust bin of history. when do you think you can take care of that, erasing it from the books as it were? >> i think as soon as i get sworn in for my second term and the new legislature comes, not only will we wipe that off the books and probably a lot of other zombie laws that are sitting there latent that could pose a threat depending on what the supreme court continues to do in terms of eroding our rights. we arescouring the laws and get rid of it. >> get rid of zombie laws that is a platform you can win on. michigan governor gretchen

whitmer, thank you so for time. congratulations. >> thank you. we much more tonight including new pressure on attorney general merrick garland with the justice department suddenly a new challenge to overcome with trump's announcement he's running for president. stay with us. on a full charge.s of rae america's most affordable ev. evs for everyone, everywhere. chevrolet.

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$9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions. your acceptance is guaranteed. and this plan has a guaranteed lifetime rate lock so your rate can never go up for any reason. so call now for free information and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. and it's yours free just for calling. so call now for free information. with donald trump now officially running for a second term as president the timing of

this announcement is itself worth noting. making this move now could be politically strategic, basically get out in front of anyone else's announcement but also duly strategic when it comes to any legal jeopardy that trump may be facing. from what was reported just before the midterms there were signs that the justice department was building real momentum in trump's mishandling of documents at mar-a-lago by adding one of the most experienced to that investigation. it seems like a criminal indictment might be imminent. and now that election day is over, the traditional 60-day period of quiet before an election where the justice department doesn't really issue new subpoenas or search warrants or, say, criminal indictments of a former president, that period of quiet is over. but, but donald trump is now a candidate for the presidency again. the republican front-runner even. and that reality, and all the

political dimensions of a political investigation that could complicate things for attorney general merrick garland which may be have been one of the reasons that trump made the announcement. throwing the wrench into a criminal indictment. so what does merrick garland do you now. joining us tonight, barb, thanks for joining us tonight. merrick garland knew that this day was coming, it seems. there was talk of a department of justice looking into a special counsel to handle this politically sensitive matter should trump announce his candidacy. where do you think the deliberations standard now? do you t feasibility of a special counsel being appointed? >> you know, it's hard to know, i certainly don't have any inside information. and i think it's at least prudent to have that conversation and discuss it if i were advising merrick garland, here's what i would say.

when you consider appointing a special counsel, you have to consider the costs and benefits of doing that. there's no legal requirement to appoint a special counsel, it's a discretionary call and it's done when people might tend to doubt the independence of the attorney general himself. when you've got someone running for president against your boss, i suppose that's a fair question to ask. when you think about the costs and the benefits here. what's the benefit? maybe you get the creation of independents, but probably not. think about the way robert mueller was treated. you couldn't find a more fair person in america in fact one with republican bona fides. and with trump, accusing trump accusing him of being partisan. and to start over after both investigations have been under way for some time. my hunch is we will not see a special counsel. >> yeah. the timing on all of this

seems -- i'd love to know your thoughts. does the timing seem imminent. do you think that garland is considering that before the end of the year -- obviously, no one has a crystal ball, but just the evidence they've amassed already do you think we'll see something in the coming weeks or does raymond dearie have to finish his review? >> i think they'll wait until november 22nd which is the day that the 11th circuit is going to have a hearing on the judge's decision to get rid of the special master in that case. that is certainly the date. that's just before thanksgiving. it seems that this case is getting closer. they've had people in the grand jury recently. kash patel was in the grand jury not long ago. those strike me as things as you get towards the end of an investigation. i don't know if we'll see it at

the end of the end but i would expect to see charges within the next couple of months. >> there's another investigation into january 6. the doj subpoenaed dozens of low-level people in the trump administration. and they've been talking about a number of different aspects related to january 6th. how does mar-a-lago and a potential indictment there complicate things for a potential second indictment into -- vis-a-vis january 6, when we're talking about someone who is now effectively the republican front-runner in a presidential campaign? >> it makes your head spin a little bit. you know it's always challenging for prosecutors to fight a battle on two fronts and it does happen from time to time. when someone is charged from crimes that are sort of unrelated and can't be joined in the same indictment under the joinder rules of criminal procedure. i do think that the january 6 case is a bit off. it's a much more complex case, a little more difficult to get

your arms around. the mar-a-lago case seems fairly discrete and can be charged within the next couple of months. remember, paul manafort had a couple cases going one in virginia and one in washington, d.c. and sometimes, you get into a little back and forth where one judge rules on one thing and another judge rules on something that makes things more difficult to coordinate. i don't think this announcement stops them in any way. we've all known since january 21st that donald trump would be a candidate for president one way or another. i don't know that making a formal announcement really changes anything. if you allowed someone to require a special counsel just because you announced for president and any defendant could announce his campaign for presidency at anytime, i don't think you want to go down that road. >> a fair point and we also know that donald trump will definitely try to raise campaign funds because of any political indictment. barbara mcquade, u.s. attorney

from the eastern zriskt michigan. thanks for your time. anks for ye

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that does it for us tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow, and "way too early with jonathan lemire" is coming up next. in order to make american great and glorious again, i'm announcing my candidacy presiden