♪♪ it's 4:00 in new york. what does it mean when the mastermind of a failed coup attempt against the united states government throws his hat in the ring for another run at the white house after showing disdain for the rule of law in

our country, the free press, the peaceful transfer of power, the norms and traditions of the american presidency? we cover him like the failed autocrat he is with national security risk and political losses. the story of donald trump as a presidential candidate is uninteresting. but it's a significant national security story. it's one that is tied to the ever expanding web of trump's legal problems. here is how "the new york times" describes the investigations into his conduct. governor brian kemp testified on tuesday about efforts of allies of former president trump to overturn the 2020 election. allen weisselberg, a former business associate of trump, appeared in a tax fraud case targeting the family company.

the blizzard of legal developments in the hours before trump announced his candidacy on tuesday underscore the perils he faces as he initiates a third presidential campaign. even as the aftermath of his second campaign lingers. trump's candidacy and his place in american politics has always had serious implications for our democracy, for the rule of law in this country and for our own national security. that has been the case for years. ever since he threw his hat in the ring in 2015. the federal investigation into the trump 2016 campaign ties to russia loomed over donald trump and sparked a campaign by trump against the government he led for four years. he is underappreciated how those efforts by the russian government ultimately

contributed to the war in ukraine and what has become the most significant american foreign policy crisis in decades. putin's assault on ukraine and his attack on american democracy have until now been treated largely as two story lines. across the intervening years, russia's election meddling has been viewed as a closed chapter, a moment in which a foreign leader set to put the u.s. against itself. another story was ukraine's efforts to establish a modern democracy and as a result its position as a hot zone of the new cold war between russia and the west. to a remarkable degree, the long struggle for ukraine was at best base known to the upheaval and scandal of the trump years, from the earliest days of the 2016 campaign and then the presidential transition, through

trump's first impeachment and into the final days of the 2020 election. this is worth keeping in mind, as we consider the fact that -- the consequences of a third trump presidential run. here at home, trump's conspiracies sit at the top of a domestic terrorist threat. he lashes out in the face of investigations. remember, hang mike pence? yesterday, national security officials warned congress of a spiraling domestic extreism problem. here is the fbi director -- >> we are concerned about the lethality, especially of racially motivated violent extremists and the spike that started in 2020 of anti-government, anti-authority violent extremism. we have very active

investigations really all over the country through our joint terrorism task forces in all 56 field offices. and it is a growing problem. >> that is where we begin today. joining us is mary mccord, former top official in the national security division. also, pete strauch and brandon van brack is back. to my knowledge, none of you have worked on presidential campaigns nor are you secretly moonlighting as pollsters. that's for the reason that trump as a political story is boring. we have done it before. trump as a national security threat feels underappreciated. i wonder if we could start in the reporting about how we as a domestic consumers of news separated russia's conduct around 2016 from the ultimate foreign policy aims, which i

guess the reporting puts it back in the right order, that they had bigger ais and pleasing trump was the means to do that. talk about whether those endure as he throws his hat in the ring again. >> i this -- i think they do. my colleagues here that you have today on this panel, all are very well aware of the goals of putin. the goals of our adversaries not just russia but others as well, which is always to really muck things up and get involved in our own democracy. weakness in the u.s. is strength to som adversaries. trump played into that. he felt emboldened by having a relationship with putin. he felt he could use levers to achieve things that were in his

personal interest, even if they weren't in the interest of the country. i think he was taken advantage of because of that, because of this. i don't know the connection was always made. but it's being made in this article. many of us, i'm sure pete and brandon, feel the same way. these are things we have worried about since the very beginning, since the candidacy, frankly, and some of the historic relationships and things that we saw not only between trump and putin but also people within trump's orbit, his advisers, et cetera. there's no reason that would stop going forward. there's every reason to think that this is part of what trump is thinking, part of what putin is thinking. >> brandon, putin kept the relationship and the synergy current. i think before tucker carlson was talking about the trump supporter who died during the insurrection, putin was talking in interviews about that.

i think the synergy -- i won't suggest who is emulating who because it's hard to tell from here. but the synergy between what is broadcast on russia state media and trump's favorite programs on fox news, that would be tucker carlson's hour, is undeniable. back to '15, it was a flirtation. more it's now lockstep around foreign policy issues. what does that usher in in terms of foreign policy concerns? >> certainly, you are highlighting when you talk about russia the primary national security issue and threat the u.s. government faces. but i want to put a positive spin on this, even though i think you and the other speakers might pull me back, which i'm okay with. when we talk about 2016 and what the russian government did there, we're no longer in a 2016 environment in the sense that the u.s. government now is

hyperfocused on the issue of foreign influence, in particular foreign governments trying to influence elections. so that vulnerability doesn't exist in the same way. that doesn't mean it's not a concern. in fact, the point is, it's such a priority that we have just now had a transfer of power of sorts, it appears like, at least one house of congress. there wasn't significant misinformation or disinformation or foreign influence with respect to that election. there was a peaceful transfer of power. i know you are taking this to two years in the future as opposed to the moment. part of that is i think it's important to keep that perspective, which is all of those threats and concerns are here, but we did just have, i think you would call it a successful and safe election, even while all of those issues are surrounding us. >> i will never, ever, ever stand in the way of anything positive ever being cast on any of these concerns. our viewers are desperate for

glimmers of hope. i will stay with this. let me follow up. the distinction is that trump didn't lose. kari lake did, blake masters did, mastriano did. i think it's tom freedman has a piece out that says the losing is what he could not bear. i think the distinction or the anomaly is trump. to your point, he is the distinct threat to democracy. all these other soul mates of the maga movement, at trumpism, especially kari lake, blake masters, doug mastriano, all conceded. i think kari lake is yet to concede. what is it about that sort of touchstone being so sacred that even the trumpiest of the midterm candidates didn't go

where he went? what would putin take of that? that trump is of singular awe -- audacity? >> our government is more stable than foreign governments give it credit for. we are drawing a distinction between the former president and candidates that supported the former president, again, it's important to take away -- this was a highly politicized election. i don't want to use hyperbole. highly contentious. a lot at stake in terms of the power in both houses of congress. we didn't see candidates refusing to concede. it's worth taking a step back to celebrate and recognize that victory for our democracy, for our lectoral process. that doesn't mean not to remain

vigilant. i don't think the u.s. government won't remain vigilant. in terms of how nefarious this is, i do think we have to take what occurred this past week as a positive sign. i think we should celebrate that. >> i think the voters deserve 99.99% of the credit for that. this was the conversation. frankly, as the election came and rounded the final corner, there was the tragic assault of speaker pelosi's husband, and voters got to see what was being flirted with on the right and embraced in some dark corners, and that is the specter of political violence. they rejected that as well. i take brandon's point that in these elections, democracy was on the ballot. we made it part of the conversation, the four of us talked about it frequently at many turns over the last two years. voters said, i want to live in a democracy. but that goes to the political

weakness, i guess, of trump, who is not such a fan of those rules and those norms and traditions. what do you make of his reentry into presidential politics? >> i think we're going to have two years to find out. the reality is, a lot if not all of the national security concerns that existed around trump were not resolved. they are there. the saudis gave his son-in-law $2 billion. he continues to have potentially huge financial troubles with the debt that he is carrying, coupled with the lawsuits going on against his financial interests. from an international perspective, just not long ago, president biden gave a speech where he was talking right after he was elected, i think it was the g7 he went to and he sought to reassure our allies and he said, we are back. he said, immediately one of our closest allies said, how long? the reality is, people are still around the world looking to the united states and trying to figure out, is this flirtation with trump done?

is trump not only the individual sort of national security problems he had, are there problems that his mistrust of the nato alliance, his coziness with people like vladimir putin, his hesitation to support ukraine, all the things that from a strategic perspective russia would want to pursue, trump very much aligns with those. i think time will tell. i think we will have to keep a close eye to the tens of millions of people who still support former president trump to see what that translates to in the two years ahead. >> right. to see what they become conditioned to under his messaging. jonathan carl of abc news reported on this program that he had sources very close to trump who acknowledged that trump announced his run for the purpose of making it more uncomfortable and difficult for doj to investigate, and if they deem necessary charge him in the mar-a-lago investigation or anything related to january 6. what will the result of that be inside doj?

>> well, you know, i don't know if that's what trump had in mind or not. but i don't think it's going to be successful. doj i know there's been reporting has been considering whether maybe this should cause it to appoint a special counsel, much like mueller was appointed as a special counsel. his candidacy would give -- if they were launching an investigation after trump had already announced his candidacy, i think that's something that they would really seriously need to consider so that they could afford any perception of a political investigation. the fact is, this investigation, particularly the mar-a-lago investigation, but others the mentioned, at the top of the hour, started long before he had announced his candidacy. so i think at this point, to think about something like a special counsel, i think there's a lot of reasons against that. they are so far along in the investigation. it would delay things.

it would be used by trump to further delay things if there is eventually going to be an indictment. the other point i would make is that to the extent he thinks that if i'm elected into office i am beyond the ability to be prosecuted, that's not at all the case. certainly, there's no bar on state prosecutions such as the one being investigated in georgia. even that office of legal counsel memo that governed special counsel mueller in the russia investigation and it's been on the books for a number of years, that memo that says, it would be wrong to indict a sitting president, even that, that is just an office of legal counsel memo. i think it's very open and debatable, constitutional question whether the department of justice could indict and prosecute a sitting president. it might be that the answer lies that you can indict but you

don't prosecute until they are no longer president. there's ways to look at it. to be clear, that olc memo is just a memo. it's binding on the department of justice. of course, it can be changed with a new opinion from the office of legal counsel. it's not binding on courts. it's not -- no court ruled on the constitutionality of that. it may be what trump has in mind. i don't expect it to stop any of the investigations. i don't expect it to stop any indictments if they are going to be forthcoming. >> let me ask it more specifically. it's only a memo. but it was a memo that was at the center of the mueller team's calculations and decisions. it's the attempt to articulate something that was really hard for most people to understand in volume two. i think robert mueller himself tries to say, if i can say he hadn't brokn the law, i would. is it just a memo that merrick garland is likely to ignore?

>> no. not at all. that memo, while it exists, it's binding on the department. the point is, olc sometimes does change its view. sometimes there are new memos written. olc could re-examine the question. it could come out with a different result. that would have its own problems. then that would be looked at as political. i'm not saying i expect that to happen. i'm just saying that it is not the case that any court has ever ruled that as a matter of constitutional law it is -- you cannot indict a sitting president. so i just think that should be clear. people tend to look at that memo as established doctrine. it's certainly possible it could be re-visited. that again would carry its own consequences. i think there's reason for the department to be moving more quickly so that this doesn't become an issue if they're going

to act. to act before the election in 2024. >> brandon, what is the piece that we can't see from the outside? you have operated at the highest levels of the justice department. you have been in and around and a part of breathing the same air as people who were in the ex-president's crosshairs and involved in the last efforts by the justice department to investigate potential national security issues pertaining to him and the people around him. what is the actual intangible affect of him being a declared candidate as opposed to who he was yesterday at this hour? >> i don't think it has -- i agree with mary. i don't think it has any impact whatsoever. i think this case in terms of how it's been staffed, in terms of its oversight, has gone forward with the assumption and belief that they are investigating the political rival of the president of the united states. you have evidence of that from the fact that the attorney

general reviewed and approved the search warrant. that rarely happens. i'm guessing that you can count on one hand how many times they have read a search warrant while attorney general. that's been built into it. this announcement really just solidified, confirmed what had already been assumed. if anything, what it does -- mary made this point, which i agree with. it does confirm there needs to be an accelerated time frame. what they are doing is moving with all deliberate speed, at much haste as possible to wrap this investigation up so that they can make a charging decision. >> pete, with all of the evidence of the obstruction case, mostly public facing, what do you think they will ultimately do? >> i would hesitate to make any prediction along those lines. i think what they will do is look at all of the evidence they have in front of them. they are looking at obstruction,

mishandling classified information, destruction of documents. if the evidence supports charging, i think they will do it. i will add, this is not uncharted territory. the fbi had a criminal investigation of the democratic -- a candidate and then the nominee for the democratic party for the president of the united states. ran a criminal investigation during the time she was in the primaries. reopened the case when she was, in fact, the nominee for the democratic party. nobody was wringing their hands over whether to appoint a special counsel. if you recall, then candidate trump was an enthusiastic proponent of this investigation. we have done this before. certainly, president obama was of the same party. that's a little different dynamic. but we have clearly done things like this in the past. the path is clear. i suspect that attorney general garland and the department of justice and the fbi will go where the evidence takes them. >> we need you to stick around. we will see if we can get more optimism out of brandon or anyone one of you.

how the failed ex-president's next act could potentially -- maybe you will disagree -- pose a greater national security risk to our country should he ascend again. we will dive into who could surround him and why that might be. the mormon church backed a bill to protect same-sex marriage and marriage equality in america. it is now poised to become law later this year. something we wouldn't even have needed if it were not for the u.s. supreme court. we will show you how that important vote in the senate unfolded in the last few minutes. later, congressman adam kinzinger will be our guest. we will talk about the ex-president's announcement and where the january 6 investigation goes, if it heads towards a criminal referral. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe.

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we are certainly seeing a trend that is magnified online of people using a mix, a hodgepodge of different personal beliefs and ideologies and grievances to -- as justification for violence. and that is an alarming trend that has continued, again, for the last, let's say, four or five years. and it's something we have to be concerned about. and certainly, the social media dimension is one of the ways in which gasoline is poured on the fire, if you will. but there are a lot of other things that contribute to it. >> you have also said china and russia have basically piggybacked on the unrest that's

here, the division within our country. what did you mean by that? in what ways? >> well, a number of our foreign adversaries, a number of nation states, russia initially, but since then not just russia but china and iran as well have capitalized on the same toxic politically charged violence that occurs in this country these days to try to pit us against each other, to amplify tensions that are already there and make it worse. >> mary, pete and brandon are back. brandon, i wonder if you are about as optimistic about the toxic politically charged violence that occurs here. it was jarring to hear that. everything about this testimony was so matter of fact. it really is a pretty damning indictment of the state of our politics. i wonder how you feel about the

genies that are out of the bottle, the fact that the husband of the speaker of the house could be attacks in his own home by someone who is consumed and drank from the water fountain of conspiracies for four years. >> no optimism or positivity here on that topic. it shows us that when we use terms like national security, i think the default for many of us is to focus on foreign issues, how foreign governments interfere and influence us, how terrorism can impact us. we're at a time right now where there are domestic threats that pose significant, if not the most significant national security issues to us. so i think it was senator demings talking about foreign governments using that to -- the point is, it's secondary. the primary concern is domestic terrorism and violence. it's a primary issue. >> you have always been involved

in protecting the country from the threats of foreign terror. i wonder how you assess the tool kit the u.s. government and doj and the fbi have at their disposal for domestic threats. i will start with you, mary. >> it's very different, because we do have first amendment rights here. there's a fine line, but a line between what is protected speech, expression, association with like-minded people, even for things that many of us would find abhorrent, racist speech, even some types of violent speech can be protected so long as they aren't incitement to imminent lawless activity. because of those rights that we have in our constitution, those are important rights, there is -- it makes a little bit more of a hurdle to investigate some of the trends and propaganda that ends up fuelling the violence. one of the things that i have been talking with elected

officials and law enforcement about and community activists and organizers and voting rights groups about for the last several years is that there are boundaries in our constitution. it's not a free-for-all. the government can always consume information to keep track of the trends, to keep track of violent problems. i supplied information i received to the fbi that was starting to talk about violence so that they could be aware of it. it might not be enough to take action. but they have to stay aware of it to stay ahead of it. when we are talking about foreign -- particularly foreign terrorist organizations, foreign terrorist organizations don't have any first amendment rights. there's no hurdles to cross to launch those investigations. i'm not suggesting that should change here in america. i'm not suggesting we should designation domestic organizations as terrorist. but we need to understand the first amendment doesn't protect

everything. law enfocement can investigate. also, the second amendment doesn't protect using a firearm in any way you want for whatever purpose you want. it doesn't protect private paramilitary organizations. that's been made clear by the supreme court. not everybody understands that. it's something we do need to work together, federal, state, local and community, to combat this threat here in america that is driven by our own rhetoric before our adversaries get involved. >> the thing that i hope doesn't come to bear is that people like christopher wray, who is to know everything, has been sounding the alarm about the domestic violent extremism threat outpacing the foreign terror threat in the united states of america. as you all indicated, our tools

for fighting foreign terrorism are far sharper, more readily available than the tools for fighting domestic violent extremism. as his testimony about the rising threat here at home from in our own country, i have not seen any successful efforts to change or enhance the tools available. what is the conversation in law enforcement about what else it would need to be successful? i know conversations about terrorism, at least after 9/11, were about how they need to be right once, the terrorists, we have to be right every time. how can we be right every time if we are limited in terms of how we can protect ourselves? >> it's a really tough question. in his testimony, he mentioned the problem, the difficulty in investigating lone wolves, people who are radicalized on their own, outside the context of any organized group. as mary said, it's one thing -- we have investigated this for almost -- more than 20 years,

since 9/11. looking at those things, looking at factors which most effectively radicalize people, which cause people to not only start -- move from feeling animus to making them an enemy. applying that in an international context is something we have done for decades. the problem is, what he doesn't say in the domestic context is, who are the people that are serving to radicalize these people? what is the rhetoric? what are the statements that are being made that are triggering people to grab a hammer and try and kill speaker pelosi? those are the things when it comes to speech which is protected, you see a lot of that coming from the mainstream of the republican party in many cases, from people who are close to and around trump, advocating for violence. that's not something that the

fbi can monitor. i agree, this is something we have to look outside of the context of law enforcement. we have to look to community leaders, to faith leaders, to politicians and try somehow to bridge that gap to say, there is a domestic radicalization problem. the way that we solve that is changing the speech and behavior of all these leaders outside of the law enforcement context. it's difficult. i worry about where we are headed. i don't see signs anybody is seeking to step away. i hope what brandon was saying earlier, that maybe the midterms are a cause to pause and reflect about where the rhetoric is going. i don't see an easy solution on the horizon. >> a last thought. you are all well aware of mike flynn's path from serving his country to serving as a chief radicalizer. he is out there actively recruiting people to adhere to radical belief and to do anything to advance it.

to be continued. mary, pete, brandon, thank you so much for starting us off and having this conversation with us. we are grateful to have all of you together at one time. up next, democrats have made same-sex marriage protections a priority in these post midterm weeks. it looks like it could become the law of the land. we will talk to a member who has been a driving force on this issue. don't go anywhere. don't go anyw. you could manufacture a whole new way of manufacturing. you could disrupt buying habits before they disrupt your business. you could fire up a new generation of start-ups. and fuel the search for what comes next. so...what are you waiting for? go. baker tilly.

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right now, millions of americans, our family members, our congressional staff members and our constituents, are scared. the same legal arguments that the supreme court rested upon to reverse roe v. wade could just as easily be applied to reverse numerous other cases related to families, related to intimate relations, to contraception and marriage. >> today the senate is taking a truly bold step forward in the march towards greater justice, greater equality, by advancing the respect for marriage act. >> we know that nearly a million americans are already committed to same-sex marriages who simply want long-term certainty. not only a million who are already committed to a same-sex marriage but the millions of people who attended the ceremonies, their friends and their family.

>> moments ago, the united states senate took the first step to protect marriage equality, specifically same-sex and interracial marriage, with 62 senators voting to move a bill forward that would provide federal protections to same-sex marriages. 12 republicans joined with the democrats supporting the measure. the movement to codify marriage equality, marriage protections into law, gaining steam this summer after clarence thomashin could overturn the ruling, stripping away the constitutional right to abortion access. the bill will head for final passage. joining us is sean patrick maloney. he is the first -- you are the first openly gay congressman from new york. you led the efforts to pass the defend marriage equality act in july. we talked to you about it many, many times. take me through what this was

like. was 12 republican senators more or less than you were expecting or hoping for? >> well, it's enough. what we need right now is we need enough people on the other side to believe in things like that love should matter and marriage equality should be the law of the land. there's a lot of people to thank here. i want to thank senator schumer. tammy baldwin has been a hero to me and others. also to speaker pelosi who had the vision to put this on the floor and demonstrated there was bipartisan support for this. the republicans have stopped short of raising our trans brothers and sisters and the fights that they are still waging. in some ways, this bipartisanship only exists to a more narrow issue. what we need is the equality act and full equality for lgbt plus

people and their patpartners an their families. it's a good day. i'm proud of the senate for taking this step. want to thank senator schumer for his leadership. when i came to congress, i will tell you, my kids couldn't get health insurance. repealing that federal legislation is really meaningful. it's a big step forward. >> i remember last tuesday the first piece of exit poll data we got before any results had come in, it was right after 5:00, was the 60% of voters in the midterms who disapproved of dobbs. with that number was 60% of all voters who disapproved of the supreme court. dobbs is a big deal. it was just as clear in justice thomas' concurrences that targeting this decision, which is more popular now than the day it was made is very much on the table for the supreme court. how do you think that figured

into the midterms? >> i hope the supreme court is getting the message that millions of americans don't want to go back. whatever that maga majority on supreme court thinks, they will run into a problem with the american people. with the other branchs of government who through legitimate checks and balances means can make our voices heard on this. that's one of the things we're doing today is making it clear that it's the will of the american people through the congress to not go backwards on marriage equality. the supreme court still matters. the constitutionally protected right to marry in all 50 states is not something that the congress can do the way the supreme court did. it still matters we defend the decision at the supreme court and in the future, even though we are backstopping some of the protections through this legislation. >> is this a bittersweet day, this thing you have been fighting for, that you lent your voice to in congress and in the

country and in the media? with a seat you will not hold in january. >> look, i mean, here is what i think -- i'm thinking about and what i hope people think about. when this congress started, there were people coming through the windows and doors trying to overturn a presidential election. there was an insurrection. there was a movement that seemed on the rise to bring authoritarianism to the united states, to play footsy with conspiracy theorists. we passed an agenda to heal our country, to move forward with our biggest problems from our infrastructure to helping our vets to making seniors' prescription drugs affordable to climate change to bringing jobs back from china. we had an election where democracy got stronger. we had a democracy where the forces of democracy gained strength. i think a lot of us feel better

about our democracy one week after this election than we felt one week before it when we weren't certain whether we were going up or down. it's not about me and any one seat. i will point out that we led an effort that had the best result in a first term midterm since kennedy was in the white house. most people were saying i was out of my mind when i said we would hold our own. the fact is, 35 of our 39 frontline candidates won their races and are coming back to congress. what it means for our democracy is really the important thing. by the way, the action today in the senate is part of that. >> i felt having worked in white house after september 11th that there was something in the country that was uneasy and that this could be an election where voters acted in 2022 the way they did in 2002. i want to ask you about all the people who have been on the front lines in this fight.

you guys won't be there. is there -- are those of you who are not coming back, through retirement or the outcomes last week, have you had any -- either over beer and nachos or coffee and doughnuts, is there conversation among you that have been part of this extraordinary insurrection year who won't be there in january? >> adam and i came to congress together. we have been friends. i have respect for him. you need good people in every congress. it won't be the same people. there's no indispensable people. the graveyards in washington are full of indispensable people. we need good people and enough of them to keep our democracy growing stronger, make our country more inclusive. i gotta say, the results of last tuesday, of the last election, make me more confident in the course of our country.

it's because people fought for it. it's because people stayed in the fight. this congress didn't walk away, believed in it, paid for it with their careers. people like adam or liz cheney. i don't myself in those ranks. i'm proud i was in the fight. i'm proud we persuaded enough of the american people. we tackled the tough problems. the president led on this. the speaker led on this. we worked through them. they gave us a little more time to keep doing this work. they resisted the effort by people to exploit their frustrations, anger, fears for political gain. the election deniers lost. the maga movement is on the decline. donald trump is yesterday's news, if you ask me. we have to remain vigilant and work for something better. i think people should feel better about our democracy because of what happened on tuesday. >> you are the second optimism to grace our airwaves this hour. if you are bored, i will mick you an offer, you are here -- we

are here every day at 4:00. >> i'm working on my resume. i may have free time. >> we would love to see you. >> i'm looking forward to it. my family has first claim on my time. >> i'm sure they do. i'm sure they are elated. that's the two sides of it. >> thank you for the offer. >> of course. it's standing. thank you. up next, how president biden and the democrats keep their coalition together and handle the looming presidential election that's now closer than the last one. our political panel joins us next.

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and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free at freestylelibre.us president joe biden sounding a fired up and ready political tone these days. last night on twitter he shared a message, quote, trump failed america. it's an example "the new york times" says is a post-mid-term plan crafted by the president's advisers how he'll shift those attacks back to the big loser himself, his threat to democracy and all trump's failures, what some of his top aides refer to as the trump project. let's bring in msnbc political analyst matthew dowd. i want to ask you a question sort of -- what is the wisdom of biden coming out already on

twitter and setting up this showdown between himself and donald trump? >> well, i'm actually with you -- with your viewers actually in this -- in the course of this is where i think the vast majority of america is. understands donald trump is a threat, just wants him to go away. do we really have to go through this again? it's like number 8 in the sequel you didn't really like the first movie but now their making you watch number 7, 8, 9, and i think most americans are like let's go away. and i think the posture of most democratic office holers should be we've got a job today, we're going to protect democracy, let us do our job, and we're going to work on behalf of the american people. that should be the tact of it. i understand there's sort of a desire or hunger to go directly on the attack of donald trump in the midst of this, and i get

some people they're wanting to do that. i actually think the best tact of this is go away. >> your thoughts. >> i mean i'm with you on the trump fatigue, but at the lincoln project we often say you have to play the game you're in, and the game you're in is donald trump is enemy number one. he's an enemy to our democracy, an enemy to our way of life, and we need to make sure that he is -- we cannot take our foot off the gas concerning donald trump because indifference is our enemy in this incidence. we cannot become indifferent. as much as i wish we could just ignore him, we cannot to a certain degree. that doesn't mean we have to give im2 billion worth of free media like the mistakes made in 2016, but it also means you have to remind people why we do not want to go back to the days of old when donald trump had the chaos, the corruption, the hatred, the division, the lying. all of that is not what the american people want. we rejected it before, we need

to reject it again, and he still has a considerable amount of support amongst republican members, republican voters as of right now, so we have to play the game we're in. >> i actually think he stopped being the story the day mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy said let's clear it out after he clearly lost the race. what is sort of the more strategic slice of holding republicans who are still in the arena accountable for enabling him? >> well, i think there's a difference between -- there's a difference between how do you handle -- what do you do with donald trump and what do you do about the republican party's who's gone off the deep end with autocracy and probably for a number of elections to come we're going to have to deal with this aebt democratic movement that's happened in the course of this. i would just say what i got out of the message on tuesday and

what i think most people got out of the message is we're done with the crazy, we're over it, we want to get on with our lives. we want people in office that are competent. we like democracy. we like our institutions. fix some of the stuff that needs to be fixes but keep the crazy out of my life. i'm done with the crazy in this. and so whether -- how you do that, i think there is a risk to overplaying this thing and constantly being addicted to the donald trump machine. there's enough maga cult members addicted to the donald trump machine who post-donald trump don't need to be addicted to the crazy in it because i think that's where independents and swing voters say, man, this is all bad. if we can just get out of the crazy and office holders can stand up and say we're going to get the job done, look after your lives, take care of you, and whatever they're doing over there is bizarre. >> yeah, that became apparent in the leadership races.

i mean you had challenges, tim mccarthy, and mcconnell from the crazy wings of the party as -- it's still very much in the realm of possibility that republicans could take the house. how do you -- how do you focus on this more extreme element of a shrinking republican party? >> i think you can walk and chew gum at the same time here. yes, you can run the risk of fatigue with this, but there still are enough of them. there are enough of the maga wing we still need to be concerned about them. let's remember this was not an overwhelming victory for democrats, right? it was a very small margin who are republicans but enough that republicans still took the house. democrats may still have the senate, but there's still enough of that crazy there to create problems and create chaos, so i think it's important to, yes, you can legislate, continue to be the adults in the room. i think it was smart of the biden administration to put that video out, to share the compare

and contrast, you really want to go back there? but they can chew gum and walk at the same time and show their accomplishments and pay attention to what the enemies of democracy are doing because you cannot underestimate the power of republicans going back home to the magas if push comes to shrug. >> they are sort of like the storms that go off over the ocean and regain strength after you thought hurricane season was over. thank you so much for being part of our conversation today. to be continued. a quick break for us on the other side. congressman and january 6th select committee member adam kinzinger joins us. you don't want to miss this. don't go anywhere. you don't want to miss this. don't go anywhere. perfect for lunch or dinner. only at ihop. download the app and earn free food with every purchase.

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in our country we don't swear an oath to an individual or a political party. we take our oath to defend the united states constitution, and that oath must mean something. tonight i say this to my republican colleagues who are

defending the indefensible. there will come a day when donald trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain. >> it's a solid burn then and remains so today. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. a profound message to the rest of her party from congresswoman liz cheney who aside from one other of her gop colleagues was all alone in standing up to donald trump and his big lie. one other republican congressman adam kinzinger of illinois. he and cheney are the only two republicans in the house to fight against the expresident's lies that led to the vions on january 6th, the only two republicans serving on the 1/6 committee investigating that attacken our government. the only two republicans who risked their political futures and seats to stand up for what is right. however, congressman kinzinger doesn't think he's doing anything special. watch. >> there's no strength in this.

we're just surrounded by cowards and complete contrast to coweredism when it looks like courage. >> it doeslic like courage. at the end of this congress january 4th of next year neither kinzinger or cheney will return for congress. their time in office may be drawing to a close but voters in these mid-term elections show the values and principles that they fought for are not in the rearview mirror mirror. in race after race after race the american people rejected extremism and autocracy and the lies spread by the expresident and his allies, leaving the republican party scrambling to address its weaker than expected performance. take a listen to senate minority leader mitch mcconnell's admission. >> we underperformed among independents and moderates because their impression of many of the people in our party in

leadership roles is they involve chaos, negativity, excessive attacks, and it frightened independent and moderate republican voters. >> gop now in disarray. mcconnell just beat back a challenge from senator rick scott to be inort leader. and mccarthy faced a challenge as well as he's pursuing the speakership. all while the disgraced expresident announced a bid again to run for 2024. adam kinzinger in a new op-ed writes this. quote, trump has proven him woefully unfit to hold the office that he sullied. worst of all a return of donald trump in 2024 could further erode american democracy, potentially rendering it irredeemable. it's where we begin the hour

with republican congressman adam kinzinger. thank you so much for spending time with us today. >> yeah, you bet. good to see you. >> tell me what you make of the results on tuesday, and if you have any -- i know you don't look back very much, but do you wish you'd stayed in the ring? was this election result different than when you decided to retire? >> first i'll say the wishing side of things. i'll be very clear i got drawn out of my district by democrats in illinois. now, that said i'm not sure i was going to run again anyway. i've been in congress ten years and that's a long time, and i'm really impassioned on focusing on this fight broader nationwide. when you're in the house you're dealing with every day, you know, the messaging votes and all this kind of stuff. now, in terms of the results, though, it was fantastic. i mean, we all expect that -- i'll say i'm guilty of this. i expect as we got closer to the election there's a few smarter

people out there of this was going to be a red wave, just history and everything else. but i think the january 6th committee even if people don't vote on that issue, it kind of popped the bubble so to speak. i think the paul pelosi attack and i think the dobbs decision and other things and gen-z turned out and we had a bit of a defensive democracy, and it's just the beginning. >> you just said a national role in the things you've been fighting for including democracy. what does that mean? >> i mean it doesn't necessarily mean a run for the presidency. it means, look, when you're in the house and you have to take these messaging votes every day, all day and both sides are trying to get each other on something. and you're busy fund-raising your own election from day to day in congress it's hard to for instance go travel with people, give speeches with groups who

want to get together. i have country first, we have 50 state chapters and support democrats in this mid-term race, and so i'm looking forward to looking at this and saying to the american people let's get out of our minds of liberal conservative and what do we need to solve problems? you know, something new -- something new has got to work. >> i think you have to best record in terms of the candidates you endorse. there were a lot of secretary of state candidates. do you think a democracy scorecard the way a lot of used to score candidates is a way to innovate these mid-term snz. >> the bottom line is we have to think differently how to defend democracy than we have. i've talked about an uncomfortable alliance, okay. republicans and democrats might have to be friends for a little bit to defend democracy here. doesn't mean you have to agree on everything, but let's think outside of the box. secretary of state races those

were the front lines and will be the front lines of defending democracy in 2024, every candidate i endorsed and run. i think only one of donald trump's, he endorsed one. we worked on other races on convincing democrats to say, look, you live in a republican district. if it's one of those that's ruby red, you should vote in the republican primary and vote at least for somebody who believes in democracy and turned out had or 5,000 people in that race. so that's how i think we have to think, nicole. outside of a race costs a jillion dollars and spend it all and that's important, but what are the areas can make a rifle shot difference? >> it's clear that trump crossed the lines for you and liz cheney. for me he crossed those lines way before he ever became president, but i was always happy to see more members of my old party, anybody across those lines and then fight vigorously alongside democrats to protect

them. why do you think more people don't feel he crossed their red lines in a republican party? >> you know, part of its tribalism, right? the second if one of them says, look, i've had enough of donald trump you get kicked out of your tribe and the other tribe to the extent it exists, they're not going to upset because they're coming on too late or maybe you had this other issue i disagree with. the other thing you can convince yourself from a moral perspective you're doing the right thing. everybody thinks they're the good guy. so you can convince yourself i have to run again, i have to support donald trump so i survive or someone else comes after me. the other thing is i think it's sheer cowardice. when i got elected this was 2009, i got elected 2010. and i remember thinking if i'm going to ask people to be

willing to die for this country and obviously i'm going to have to take votes on that, and i have, i have to be willing to give up my career for the same cause. now, that sounds innovative but it's so true. you know, we swear an oath to the constitution not because what we're going to do is easy and not because i have to take a poll every time i vote on things like should donald trump be impeached and what does my district say. it's because my oath is not to my district. it's to the constitution, and sometimes that's going to be hard. and everyone forgets that, unfortunately. >> including kevin mccarthy, liz cheney seem today have a special hatred of how he has betrayed his oath. do you share that? >> oh, i've got to tell you kevin is the biggest disappointment probably of any friend i've ever had. he was a friend. before the election i started to notice he was defending donald trump more than he was defending his own members of congress.

but he is the guy -- he is the entire reason donald trump is still a political figure. because in the caucus, in the republican caucus after january 6th there were some of us speaking out. there were a lot of crickets, people trying to figure out where this was going to go. and the second kevin mccarthy in his cowardice changed the tenor to i guess donald trump's staying. kevin mccarthy is a cowered. if he becomes speaker it'll be the hardest time in his life and history will not be kind. >> what do you think the intervening event was between what he said to you on the tapes we've all heard now that for mccarthy impeachment wasn't fast enough. he was an advocate of the 25th amendment and as you said he single handedly revives trump. >> it's all money. he'll even say it, it was money because we -- i say we, so the ten of us that voted for

impeachment, we all made our own rip, right? and some sent a picture of what is he doing. and immediately there was a fund-raising thing up, and i think all it came down to is it's about raising money, and he always wants to become speaker. well, great you may get the title, kevin, congratulations. it's going to be miserable because history is not going to judge you well. >> how hostage do you think he'll be to margery taylor greene and matt gates? what will that look like in. >> he's going to be completely hostage. first off marjorie taylor greene she's going to be all for -- if he wins, if he gets to 218 baz we don't know what the majority is going to be, it's likely there will be a republican majority.

any one of those people can deny him to the 218 votes needed. so he's going to be walking around making deals with everybody, cutting every deal he can with the crazies. i call it the freedom club. the question is going to be the moderates who are left. are they willing to say hey, kevin, this is gone too far and we will vote against you if you aqueous to whatever this demand is? truthfully as moderates we generally wanted to get along, we wanted to govern. so it's a lot harder to do it, but the freedom caucus wants to burn it all down. >> the committee, did you and liz have a back channel to mitch mcconnell? he seemed pretty intent on trying to give the committee's work some space. >> i can't speak for liz. i did it, but i think, you know, mitch mcconnell on the one hand he could have put donald trump to rest, right? he could have voted to remove donald trump and i think we would have gotten the majority to get him out of there, 67

votes. but i think he's made it clear otherwise. we need to find out what we can find out. he's stood up and said there's a lot of concerning stuff here. no, i personally didn't have a back channel. whether liz speaks to him or not i don't know. >> i want to turn to some of the committee's work and your work on the committee. you guys got him. you had him. you tied him to the violence. you reveal and i called it, you know, three towers, witness after witness after witness after witness testified to his knowledge he'd been defeated on election night. ewitness after witness after witness testified to his knowledge that the fake electors plot was illegal. wbs after witness after witness that testified to his specific knowledge affinsurrectionists being armed, being dangerous and his wanting to be there. what should doj do with all that evidence? >> oh,wreck look, i mean so from

the committee perspective the difficulty we always had is we had a limited time that we could probably investigate this for two more years, and it's like how -- what's kind of the end state of what the committee does? i think in my personal opinion going into the hearings i was nervous, you know, are people going to listen, do they care? we blew away my own expectations, and i think we told the story which is donald trump is responsible and not just for the day of january 6th. that's a minor point. and he didn't just sit in his office on the 6th. he intentionally resisted to stop it. i think it sends an important message if we do them, we'll have the report coming out. the doj now, they have the torch. doj and the american people. so the american people vote for people that actually honor their oaths, okay. that's now what we're going to

give you, that's the charge. the doj they have more time, more tools, and they can enforce more things than we could, and i'm fairly certain -- not that i know specifically, but i'm certain they're going to find some stuff whether it's georgia or this or has secret documents. >> cassidy hutchinson was one of the committee's most important witnesses and she's today testifying in the georgia investigation. how dangerous is she to donald trump? >> she's very dangerous. i mean she came forward with as you saw specifically in the hearings we had and the hearing where she was solo she was able to give us a lot of insight that, you know, people like steve bannon could have -- you know, people that wouldn't come and talk to us, mark meadows that, you know, doj goes after him, so cassidy hutchinson will go down historically as the most important person in this.

and let me make a broader point whether it's her, people like alissa farah, i'll even say my wife, these republican women that work for donald trump each one of them have more courage than every man that works for donald trump combined. these men that work for trump, a few exceptions, are unwilling to speak out. if they speak out it's nuanced, right? and these women are the ones that have come forward and said, you know, there's a line we can't cross here, so that's been an amazing kind of eye opening thing for me is how courageous some of these young people are. and don't think donald trump is going to stray too much from this stuff. >> why do you think that is that the women are more willing to out his corruption and potential criminality? >> i don't know. you know, is it -- is it because, you know, the minions

in the administration are still trying to plot and scheme and everything else, and some of these women are just like i can't do it? i don't know what it is, i just know it is. and i know they have a moral clarity that obviously some of the men in the administration didn't have. even like vice president pence, i'm glad he did what his job was on january 6th. i'm glad he's speaking out now. i just wondered for two years why didn't you speak out. your book is not that important. have some courage and be able to look yourself in the mirror. >> you know what i think and i wonder your perspective having served in the military. i've never seen that before. he left his most senior staff in -- you know, to their own devices with the committee and then he doesn't show up. how do you evaluate that? >> i mean, look, i think donald trump is scared to death of

frankly what we're doing doj is doing. i think, you know, with vice president pence i think he looked at this and said, well, i can kind of walk the nuance of i'm not really -- you know, the people that are anti-trump i kind of wink and nod at them or remind them of january 6th, i'm not going to come in and speak to the committee, my people can. i'm sure everything that the vice president knows, we now know because it came through his folks, but he obviously wants to run for president, and, nicole, here's the interesting thing for me. if he would have fully divorced donald trump on january 7th and just like had this moral clarity of that day, put out a new vision for the party, for the country, i think he would be the ron desantis right now. >> right, i think he'd be the front-runner. i agree because i think the party would have seen him as trumpy enough, right? he was so loyal for four years much to my disappointment, but i

think you're right in this version of the republican party he would have inherited it all. let me just ask you because you said today your committee, that you have no right to his testimony. do you have any reaction to that? >> i mean i didn't hear him say that, but, you know, i don't agree, obviously. our committee is not ours. our committee is the american people's committee and we happen to be the nine members of congress plus our staff that are doing what we were charged with. but this isn't a testimony for adam kinzinger, not a testimony for liz or benny thompson. it's a testimony for the american people. and i don't care frankly if you want us to be doing this or not. i'll say this for anyone out there who still buys january 6th was nothing. your kids and your grandkids will not believe that. i'm going to guarantee you they will not believe that. and there will be a lot of people that are going to be running from that they ever believed that in the first place that it was nothing. the problem with members of

congress is you can't lie to our kids you never believed in the first place when you have a record on tv. in a way i feel bad for these people because it's going to be embarrassing i think in the long run. >> i think you're right. an image that will be in the history books is an image of trump flags and supporters crawl across the capital. we're going to ask you stoostick around through a quick break, if you will. our political panel will weigh in. another one is dividing her party by not conceding the governor's race she lost. deadline white house continues after a quick break so don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break so don't go anywhere ethnicity inheritance, nigerian east central from you. benin. my dad's side.

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when we present our full findings, we will recommend changes to laws in policies to guard against another january 6th. the reason that's imperative is that the forces donald trump ignited that day have not gone away. the militant, intolerant ideologies, the militias, the alienation and the disaffection, the weird fantasies and disinformation, they're all still out there ready to go. >> we're back with republican congressman adam kinzinger. i want to ask you about the weird fantasies and the alienation and the extremism, and i wonder whether you think a counter extremism approach to that can be successful without the republican party's participation. >> i mean in terms of, like, how

to push back and things along that line, i mean, look, i think what needs to happen, and this is from the democratic perspective and i reckon not a democrat but you have to guard against the temptation to say, if donald trump isn't authoritarian and the republicans are authoritarian, we're going to be also authoritarian or fight back with the same kind of fire. you guys are better than that, trust me. secondarily when it comes to things like the qanon, this idea that there is, you know, a cult drinking baby's blood, which is nuts or that everybody that disagrees with you has to be a pedophile, we have to call that stuff out because i think one of the things we learned as qanon grew, i actually think i got up as the first member of congress at least i know to speak republican and people i know like you're just giving oxygen. but that was the old days. the old days when there was

three television networks. today it's out there, huge. we have to counter that push back with truth and recognize people don't want to hear something different where they know they want to stay in their tribe. and it's going to take a psychologist i think to kind of teach us how to get people out of that moment. >> what happened to mark meadows? >> like just generally -- >> he was your colleague. i ges the nice thing he was affable. he is affable. he was a lawyer, and his text messages seem to provide some important information to the commitopy. at the same time he snubbed a body which he once served and seems all too willing to continue with all of trump's dilutions. why is that? >> let me first of all state mark meadows is our star

witness. his initial traunch of text messages he gave us were gold mines and really helped us to develop a lot of leads. he's also been a back stabber. just reading the story, you know, with john boehner where mark meadows literally got on his knees and cried for forgiveness for john boehner. and then a few weeks later stabbed him in the back again. i think he's just power driven. i think all he cares about is power, all he cares about is a title. and you can convince yourself if you think you're a moral man -- the ends justifies the means, i've got to do whatever it takes. >> you said you'd cross the bridge if trump defied the subpoena. it feels like we're at the bridge. what's the decision for the committee? will you refer him? >> yeah, i don't want to get in front of the committee's announcement on this. obviously we're aware. it's something we're taking very seriously. we've got it go through all the questions. i mean, he's a former president of 24 united states. we have a limited time left on

the committee because our charter basically ends at the end of this congress, so we're working through that, and people will come forward with whatever that takes. look, i think it should be noted and other republicans have come before congressional committees before, and donald trump has said he'll be happy to come in. tell us what you think. >> what -- what is the new evidence developed on the secret service, the committee in its final public hearing seemed to accuse two members of secret service, have those lies been cleared up under consideration? >> i don't want to get out in front of what the committee is going to announce or not announce, because we're putting all this stuff together. i will tell you the interesting thing is even as we're putting together our report, parts of the report, everything else, we are continuing this investigative line. i even listen inned on a deposition even today.

there was somebody lying at the secret service, let's be very clear. there's really interesting going ones at least with some of the people and we're not going to let that go. the other thing, too, keep in mind, is even whatever we can't finish on the committee if it was criminal in nature, doj could take that or see the report we put out and make a decision to go forward from there. >> i have one more question. will the final report be accompanied by what we've come to expect in a highly produced and fulsome public hearing? >> let me -- yeah, in terms of hearings we haven't announced whether or not we will. it's possible. but i will tell you what i think we will put out in both how it's written and accompanied exhibits, because we realize it's not about putting on a show

but making something understandable when you are constantly bombarded by people like donald trump throwing quarterbackage against the wall to confuse you. >> well, the committee's work coincides with democracy, shootings on the top of the list people are worried about this summer the coverage and public hearings which were so perfectly executed, really are an enduring legacy. it's a privilege to get a chance to talk to you. congressman kinzinger, thank you so much for joining us. >> you bet. take care. when we come back our political panel is standing by to break down some of the things you just heard from the congressman. stay with us. that's next. rom the congressman. stay with us that's next.

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it was i remember last couple of months campaigning i was with republicans who stood with me and we did a press conference talking about the big lie and that i had an opponent who was the face of it in nevada pedaling conspiracy theories and lies about a stolen election, which our courts proved wrong, and our republican secretary of state proved wrong. but they connected the dots. they connected the dots between that -- that false allegation and the mob. that type of conversation, those allegations fueled the mob on january 6th. and i was here. i lived it january 6th. but you could not underestimate what i was hearing from nevada

ns who actually watched it on tv and the emotional impact it had for so many nevadaens i talked to actually watching it realtime and seeing what was going on. >> as we all await an official call on which party will hold narrow control on the house of representatives next term, these comments from senator catherine cortez masto about just how top of mind january 6th was for voters in her state raise an interesting question in this conversation we've been having. did we all underestimate the paradigm shifting on the january 6th attack on the capitol? joining our conversation the senior call-upnist for the boston globe. mark mckinnon is here, my good friend, also the executive producer and co-host of show time's the circus and cornell belcher, pollster.

it's the democracy, stupid, oh, god but could it be. i have been hearing for an hour and 36 minutes today some optimism that people care about democracy more than people thought they did from national security figures, from an outgoing member of congress, from a democratic outgoing member. >> again i'm going to go kudos to you because you were spot on about this idea that you thought that the hearings could change some of the dynamic. i was very skeptical it could change some of the dynamics but i think in the end when they put forth all this evidence and laid it out for the american people, it did move the needle a couple of points, and i think it was the opening for the conversation about saving democracy, which reluctantly democrats came to at some point and the president gave a big speech about that, again, drove that issue up.

and we talked about this, right, what do we want the election to be about, right, and republicans want the election to be all about the economy, inflation, and crime. how do we, you know, krause pressure voters? and in that word cloud at the end it was the economy, it was inflation, but it was also a choice, and it was also the democracy, stupid. and i've got to tell you if you take democracy out of that word cloud i think you have a very different election than the one we just had. >> it's also about how you responded to january 6th and the attack on paul pelosi. it wasn't just that trump supporters carried out the attack on the u.s. capitol. it's that trump's allies in congress described it as a, quote, normal tourist visit and refused to participate in the investigation, giving voters unease. you know, they were all running. they were all in bunkers. why is only one party plus adam

kinzinger -- and same for paul pelosi. why did the ex-president and prominent media figures on the right immediately start spewing so many conspiracy theories? why wasn't the answer to condemn all political violence, kim? >> yeah, i think that is a really important point. and just like cornell said there are so many issues leading up to this election, and it was difficult to discern exactly what might move the needle because a lot of the polling kind of placed it as if every voter would be a one-issue voter. you know, if inflation ranked higher than abortion is this going to be a great red wave and voters don't act like particularly young voters. i think about people like my stepchildren who were born after 9/11 or who were just babies on 9/11. and this, seeing the insurrection, having these hearings with congressman kinzinger and others taking

place, really making clear how perilous our democracy, what a perilous state our democracy was in must have been like that life defining moment for them. and we saw for a lot of them that really boosted turnout. i think we know a lot of americans were watching in the back of their mind if republicans were mostly election deniers, that wasn't going to change. and i agree with cornell. i wonder if republicans all went on and hammered on the inflation and economy and cost of gas would the results have been different? but the republican party doesn't hear it anymore. i compare it to a reduction sauce where the longer it cooks it becomes more intense and it's not just getting the votes it used to. >> except those usually turn out delicious, and the republican message does not. i don't want to lose -- i'm not thinking about dinner and i don't want to lose cornell and kim's brilliant thought because

i think this piece of it is tied to what i in my gut felt -- i worked in white house in '02 which was the mid-term post-9/11 and people thought it wouldn't be '02 buzz bush's approval rating was higher than bidens. i think structurally within our politics and media we won't have popular presidents ever again. maybe for a week if something happens but not normally. and i think there was this feeling that members of congress from both parties went running and they had to hide. the insurrectionists were climbing the capitol swinging from it and hurting law enforcement. the law enforcement officials went to the capitol and asked for a response, and the democrats said, yes, we'll investigate, and the republicans said, no, you can't exist, you don't exist, go away. and then republican after republican after republican after trump staffer after trump staffer, after pence staffer,

after pence staffer followed again by law enforcement, came out and said this really happened. i know it really happened, and again it came down to the response. republicans calling it a tourist visit was clearly unpatriotic and also a political loser. >> no question. i think it was about democracy. it was also about just the fundamental ability to tell the truth. and i think adam kinzinger was right. i think when we look at this historically i guess we're muddled because we're in the middle of it. but ten, 20 years from now we're going to look back on this insurrection, it's going to be like a gettysburg event. and as cornell said given historical trends and fundamentals of the economy, crime and the border, obviously republicans should have and everybody predicted there would be a huge tide but there wasn't. and also it was just the extremism. look at kari lake in arizona. it's a good example. you can't find a better

candidate than that, but voters said message and the truth still matters. >> yeah. i mean, cornell, i'm still processing everything adam kinzinger said, and he was incredibly forthcoming, but i believe he just said someone at the secret service is lying to us, and we're not going to let that go. it sounds like the active parts of the congressional investigation are still very much active even though they're no longer public facing. the sort of the bricks are still falling from their probe about the insurrection. >> right. it's we're not out of the woods yet. and we -- look, there seems to be some smoke. we don't know if there's fire but there seems to be some smoke inside the government about what was happening and covering up. and look, you go back to arizona, as happy -- as happy as we are that the big liars and the deniers lost, that

governor's race was awfully close, nicole. >> yes. >> it was 49.6% or something like that. it was -- it was awfully, awfully close, and folks, we aren't out of the woods yet. we've got to stay vigilant, keep fighting, and we've got to tell a different story because these elections shouldn't be that close given the facts, right, and given i think mark is right this will be a gettysburg-like event at some point. but we're not convincing an awful lot of americans. >> yeah, and that was something else the congressman said, that it should be or could be uncomfortable but you have to have a moment that isn't political and tribal and partisan if you want to save the democracy. i want to ask all of you about that. we'll sneak in a quick break. we will all be right back. 'll sk we will all be right back.

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get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. all back with us. kim, i haven't seen you since the results and you and i so many conversations, really something we started covering all day on this show after texas passed its vigilantly abortion ban was the extremism of republican abortion policies and zeal. and how the extremist even within the anti-abortion movement had taken over the movement, and maybe you have to work in republican politics to see the distinction, but no main stream republican had ever supported abortion bans that eliminated exception for instances of rape and incest and

life of the mother and just about all the trigger laws were far more extreme than anything that had ever received any support from any main stream republican. how did the democrats in this democracy coalition include the pro-life women of kansas who voted against the abortion ban there in this governing coalition that could become a voting bloc that democrats can rely on as a bulwark against the extremism of the supreme court? >> well, i think that's an important point you're making, and it's something democrats need to do if they want to win. and the point you're making i think is really brilliant, is thinking about this in terms of extremism in the same way that we were talking about january 6th and attacks on democracy and election denialism. it just -- it was too much. each of these things i think may have been too much alone, but combined it certainly was for a lot of voters who may have split ballots or done other things that they wouldn't have done

otherwise. and so democrats have to -- they've learned if there's a lesson here it's that they talk to americans straight. they talk to americans straight about what the supreme court is doing. they talk, frankly, about what democracy means and how important it is and talk about things from the economy to student loans. they talk about all these things because voters particularly those who will give democrats a look at least, they care about all those things simultaneously, too. >> mark mckinnon, you're a beautiful political mesenser. what does that message sound like? >> i think the point here, nicole, is that because of baubs and reaction to overreach of the supreme court supreme court, usually voters are responding to the executive branch overreaching. this is the first time where voters responded to another branch of government overreaching. i think to your point, democrats have a real opportunity here to build a new coalition that includes many more suburban voters, especially women, but

men as well. trump made in-roads with non-college voters and what's happening here as a result of dobbs and some things that happened in this election is that democrats have a new coalition building on what used to be republican voters in many of those suburban areas, because they look at issues like dobbs and others and say listen, this party has gotten too extreme. when they're looking at people like kari lake and others who are telling mcmain voters to get out, they're saying wait a minute, you're talking to me here. >> cornell, i guess the opportunity lies in the fact that politicians come and go, but supreme court justices stay until they croak. i mean, this is an opportunity for the democrats to assemble a coalition that doesn't just get them through the next two years, but the next 20. what does that effort look like, and is it underway? >> well, you know, i've got to lean into mark's point on this. i think we're watching something happen that is going to be

profound and impactful long-term. barack obama didn't win the majority of college white voters in 2012, and what we have now, we're seeing three elections where college white women -- democrats are winning college white women. that fundamentally might change the map in a lot of these states. take pennsylvania, go back a decade, two decades ago, the suburbs were a lot more solidly red and a lot of running around these urban areas. now it's purplish, and we are -- we are continuing to build among better educated white women voters, and this might be a sea change moment if this continues, because it is a new coalition and it becomes incredibly difficult for republicans to be competitive in some of these battleground states. especially the northeast

corridor when you are losing college educated white women by several points. >> and all the things that republicans were defeated over, association with the insurrection and the insurrectionists, dobbs, the supreme court is associated with, as well. to be continued. thank you all so much for spending some time with us. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. i am a triathlete. i've always been into health, and wellness, and fitness... i tried everything with diet and exercise, and nothing worked. there was just kinda this stubborn area on my stomach. but coolsculpting worked for me! coolsculpting targets, freezes and eliminates treated fat for good. no needles, no incisions. discuss coolsculpting with your provider. some common side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort and swelling. you've come this far... coolsculpting takes you further. visit coolsculpting.com ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life

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