coming up next on ayman, the breaking news out of colorado springs. what we know at this hour about that mass shooting at an lgbtq nightclub. plus, the ohio democrat who defeated a 13 term incumbent republican. i'm gonna speak with great glenn smith about the biden agenda and his plans in the house of representative. -- >> another supreme court week. -- unraveling before our very eyes. i'm ayman, let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ tonight, we start with the breaking news out of colorado. a gunman entered a colorado springs algae dq nightclub late last night and immediately opened fire, killing at least five people and injuring 25 others. police chief of june vázquez says to patrons confronted the

suspect and detained him until -- nbc correspondent -- with the latest for us. steve, i understand you actually managed to speak to a bartender who is in the club in the shooting started. but it detail you? >> yeah. that's right, ayman. i think in the next few days, we'll learn more about the motive, the suspects, the victims, of course. but right now, day one is all about the people who are inside that club that experienced this terrible ordeal. one of them, his name was michael anderson, a bartender. he was telling me it was a normal night, there was a drag show, everyone was having fun, and there was some dancing. then, the first shots rang out. the first shots almost sounded like part of the song, so people didn't at first flee. which of course, for the lead to the horror. unfortunately -- fortunately, michael was able

to get to some cover. he told me exactly how we got there, and how close he came to seeing that shooter face to face. listen to this. >> i had a coworker with me and another woman with me, and we are all just huddled together, just praying that it wouldn't. >> did he come in that room? >> all i saw, i popped my head over the booth, and i saw the barrel of a gun, like, poked into the patio room. i was at that point that i legitimately thought i was gonna get shot. >> on his way out, he also saw three people, one, the shooter on the ground on his back, and two people on top of the shooter. he said, they were repeatedly beating him. then, he managed to get out. a lot of people, of course, weren't. he talked about that as well. this community is certainly in pain. there's a long way to go. but he also said, one of the

things he wanted to do was speak out, because it's part of the human process. that's what we've been hearing from people here. that process is barely underway, but it is underway. and as we keep speaking to people, that's something that will continue to grow out of this community that is just been so traumatized, but has the chance to heal. meanwhile, police continuing to do their work. still processing scenes, still talking to witnesses, still digging into the shooter's backyard as they try to determine what exactly happened here. amen. >> another mass shooting in the country. unbelievably sad. msnbc's steve patterson live for us. thank you, steve. we want to shift gears for a moment. tonight, at this hour, let's talk about politics. failed to pretrial candidate kari lake stands alone is the last battleground state republican refusing to concede her race. in fact, late this week, according to the washington post, lake flew down to trump's florida club to work with him and his team to, quote unquote,

collect evidence in order to contest her defeat. she will not find that evidence, that. we can tell her that for free. what kari lake lost, and many election deniers lost, we need to issue a warning to our viewers in the country. election denialism is not dead. we should all celebrate the big lie advocates who went down on election night, but here's the harsh reality that everyone should hear clearly. 62% of candidates who denied or cast doubt on biden's 2020 election victory actually won their races for governor, senate, house, or secretary of state. the 268 total candidates, 160 61 and will still -- soon ahold incredible political power. overseeing elections, spewing misinformation, passing laws. now, they'll be able to do so with official government titles in front of their names. that's not even counting lower level officials who also supported the big lie. just hours ago, on his social platform, trump himself continued to spread misinformation about the

midterms. as elaine godfrey writes in the atlantic, it would be foolish to pronounce stop the dad. an entire swath of the republican party is now open to the idea that any narrow loss can be blamed on fraud. let me be clear here. the big lie didn't die on election night. only to keep fighting it in the georgia runoff in 2024, and likely beyond. because if repeated, repeated audits and cold hard evidence haven't done enough to deter conspiracists. these past two years -- disappointing midterm cycle won't dissuade them either. joining me now -- chair of the democratic association of secretaries of state. secretary simon, thanks so much for coming back on the program. we had you on the show just before the election warning about election deniers. it's great that so many went down in defeat, but as i just said, 62% of major big lie

candidates won their races. your reaction to that troubling number? >> it is troubling. all i can say is that we haven't yet broken the fever. i think we're a step closer, since the election, 11 days ago. i think the american people and state after state resoundingly said they were on team normal, not on team in extreme. and that, if anything, is what managed to slow down the stop the steal movement. but i'm not there no illusion, like you. we're heading to a presidential election in 2022 -- just for hustle for that. i think we can count on some of the same old arguments, the really poisonous arguments, to come back at us. it's not just about what happens after the election. it's what happens in the lead up to the election. that starts now, for the 2024 cycle. >> are you at all concerned, sir, that these election deniers who will soon be holding elected office could spread misinformation or even worse, use that and their positions? and god knows what they can do

with it? >> yeah. i'm very concerned about that. sort of poisoning the well in advance of the 2024 election. the other thing i'm really worried about when you look to that election, which isn't as far away as you think, is this idea of not just questioning the results afterwards. we've seen a lot of that. will probably still see that in states like arizona. but what i'm worried about is people using their position or people who don't even have a position trying to throw sand in the gears and delay or slow down or adversely impact the process as we're gearing up for the election. let me give you an example. in minnesota and several of the states, we've had outside political forces recruiting election chances. that's fine. i absolutely think anyone who richardson election judge from any point in the political spectrum, any political party, it's okay. but in minnesota and every state, you have to leave your politics at the door. in fact, in many states, people who work the polls swear in of. they literally raise their hand and squareness -- nonpartisan and impressible. my wary is that outside groups,

increasingly, i tongue people to ignore that. and in minnesota and other states, counseling today things aren't just impartial, and put their thumb on the scale, the things that are actually potentially illegal, and possibly criminal. we saw some of those reports in minnesota and other states. that's my very. -- not just people saying things that don't make sense, but doing things that could sabotage elections beforehand. >> let me ask you about your state, if i can. and the elections in minnesota. were you pleased with how things went on election day? >> very. it was almost trouble free. there were a few kind of normal glitch is, but overwhelmingly, when it came to the machines, when it came to the poll workers, when it came to the noted absence of any threats or intimidation against voters, this was really almost pitch perfect election from an administrative standpoint. >> as i mentioned, you are the -- what did you learn from the

wins against election deniers in these battleground states, including your own, that you can use, or how are you planning on using what you learned, you know, going forward into 2024? >> two things stand out to me in terms of looking back at what was successful. not just in minnesota, but most states where we had the struggles and battles. one is to always lead with the truth. wherever possible, lead with the truth. see what the truth is in the face of the lies and the face of the disinformation and propaganda. i'm not naive, neither are you or your fears. i'm not saying that simply saying what the truth is it's gonna make the lies go away, with that the people who peddled americans shrivel up and leave. not everyone has to make a one 80. sometimes, people can make a 17, or 23, or 38, and overtime, that can have an effect. the second thing -- this extends beyond 2024. transparency is our friend. in state after state after

state, when rioters come to understand or become acquainted or reacquainted with the election system as it is, as it really functions in the real world, not as it's been explained or distorted on the social media feed, or by a national political figure -- when people come into contact with the system as it is, they come away with confidence. because in state after state, the system is fair, accurate, honest, and secure. never perfect, but very much sound annexed. >> all right, steve simon, miss sarah secretary of state, always a pleasure. thanks for being on the show, look forward to continuing the conversation. >> thanks for having me. >> i'm joined now by my sunday night panel, battles michaels, the -- ruth, history professor at nyu or new york university right here in new york city. with, i'll start with you. your reaction about the battleground state election deniers losing their basis and what it says that 62% of major big lie candidates actually won.

>> we do need to stay on guard. because the ultimate goal of election denial, or election subversion, isn't just one election or another, but to discredit the system in the absolute. -- cementing associations and peoples minds. the goal has always been to have american voters associate our elections with corruption and fraud to the point where eventually, they went not -- think that elections are perhaps the best way to elect our leaders and choose our leaders. and as you now, ayman, that opens the door to other kinds of transitions of power, like on january 6th. >> basil, it seems like democrats are successfully messaging on threats to democracy, at least in the

midterms. how does the party maintain that momentum going into 2024, and does the fact that trump is running again make it easier for them? because it's again at the forefront of everyone's mind? he's gonna constantly talk about the big lie in the elections being stolen, and it will be easy for democrats to hammer that message home. >> i think that's an important point. trump, in many ways, is the face of the big lie. but, i like to a state like new york where island of, and an election donor came within a few points of beating a sitting democratic governor in kathy hochul. there's still a tremendous amount of work to be done, and i think, as a party, the democrats have done an extraordinary job with the january six committee, calling this issue, bringing it to light. in many ways, republicans made a huge error by boycotting that

committee, because the democrats -- new york times once reported, sort of an uninterrupted narrative about what happened. that's not cemented in the minds of many americans. and i think only to what the secretary of state said earlier in his segment, it doesn't just stop it secretaries of state that are elected. there are governors that appoint other secretaries of state that aren't elected. there are individuals in the bureaucracy that may or may not be public facing that share the same views. and so, the democrats have to just continue to talk about being ever vigilant the pushback at every level of government throughout the bureaucracy. they've done a good job up till now of bringing it to light nationally. people are voting on that issue. but we still need to be talking about a one-year, two years i had. >> the way i see, it personally, is that two years ago, we had zero election deniers in any position of power. two years later, we have 62%.

who knows what the trend is gonna be in 2024. that'll be the deciding vote, where they rescind or go down or go up and increase. basil, ruth, stick around. we'll talk to more later on in the hour. coming up, president biden might still notch some legislative victories, even in a divided congress. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic

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for the moment. now the gop has won control the house, the present have to work with republicans in order to get anything done. as political points out, rather than driving the economic engine on capitol hill, by don't be along for the ride, for scrap with issues that republicans care about, or i'll settle for gridlock. but there is one political vigor who could help biden's chances of governing in this divided congress. donald trump. according to a new analysis in the new york times, trump's preferred candidates,

underperformed other gop candidates in the midterms. by about five percentage points. so another words, trump dragged down his chosen candidates. making them likelier to lose their races. that is the reason, at least in part, why georgia republicans were urging trump to avoid announcing his 2024 presidential bid. until, after the georgia runoff or fear that he would hurt herschel walker's chances. so can president biden learn from these midterm results as he governs over the next two years? how can we work with moderate republicans to get them on board with his agenda. we'll ask democratic congressman elect, -- he defeated 13 from encumber publican, steve chavez, and ohio's first congressional district. which is a long-standing gop stronghold. it is great to have you with us, congressman alike, let me start by asking you what do you think president biden will be able to accomplish in the next two years in this now divided

congress? >> well thanks for having me. and i hope, a lot. we are as freshman coming in with high expectations in a mandate from voters to get as much done as humanly possible. to protect democracy. reform, make it better. to do whatever we can to codify roe. and to fix this broken economy, which has been broken for a long time. my hope is that there is a majority bipartisan majority. that will expand the child tax credit. and restore and expanded so millions of families can pay their bills. which we desperately need. and that there will be bipartisan support for election reform. clearly, voters don't want this big lie extremism. and the chaos that came with it. and a whole host of things that we have to get done. but that is going to require, not just leadership from the

president. but a majority of folks in congress of republicans the democrats so far. >> you asked it, as i mentioned, a 13 term incumbent republican in ohio's first district. what did you learn from your win that you think will help you in congress and help you and future elections? >> it is a great question. one, this idea of election denial. and the big lie. all that stuff. it's just not sitting well with voters and, for republicans, nationally. we're deciding whether or not to run away from trump, which they should. this is a cautionary tale. and there are many like it. where the chaos and extremism caught up with congressman travis, who's been there for decades. but he supported the big lie. he had three debates. and each debate he talked about

this fraudulent election. and pennsylvania. which is so dangerous to understand our democracy with that kind of rhetoric. and voters said they're not gonna do that. and when i took away from it was is a pick one normal, calm, steady, honest leadership. and folks are just gonna go out there and get to work on the issues that matter most to them. so i hope that is what we see as a turning of the page, and american politics. where the heat gets turned down. folks walk away from these extreme views. and they just got to work. >> you said, and the recent political podcast, the you're not going to be successful if you're going to be a big lie and the choice extremists. expand on that. >> i think if you're in a competitive place. if it is a competitive district, competitive state. i do not think they are going

to be successful voters. i embrace the big lie. and that chaos. this anti choice extremism. of abortion bans without exceptions. you're not going to win. it's democrats, a lot of independents, and a growing number of republicans who don't want that. and so people believe in their democracy. they want us to protect it. they want their freedoms. and you want to see this play out in ohio where we're going to see our legislature, and the secretary of state, but do i propose a whole host of things undermine democracy here. voter suppression works anywhere, they will try to re-gerrymander these races they lost. they're gonna try to make it harder for people that go to the ballot. it is suggesting to voters that there is only one pro democracy

party left. in america. and that is a scary proposition. >> speaking of ohio for a second, the democratic senator sherrod brown just announced its 2024 reelection bid. do you think he could win after tim ryan losing to republican, j.d. vance? >> yeah, absolutely. i'm sure he will win. i believe he is an incredible leader. he has done incredible work. he has delivered in, i think, people have gotten to know senator brown and a very meaningful way. over the years. he's home. and in communities he's getting work done where it matters. i would say that in a year where they spent tens of millions of dollars, tens of million dollars against him, tim ryan got 40% of the vote. and so ayo -- >> and without the broader help the democratic party across the

country. >> that is right. -- >> i was gonna ask, you really quickly, because i wanted to get your thoughts as you go into congress. what are you hoping to accomplish in your first term in congress? what would be some big wins for you? >> i would love to be part of a coalition that restores the child tax credit. expands it so that millions of americans, including tens of thousands of folks in my district are able to pay their bills. i want to be part of an effort to up the investment we made in policing part departments across the country. because public safety is a serious issue. still. tackle gun violence, my hope is that there is a bipartisan majority that is going to pass common sense gun reform legislation, on top of what was passed to keep making it harder for folks like the individual

in colorado. who had a background. who should never had that weapon. so, there are some legislative majorities. i also want to show folks, here at home, what is like to have a congressman that works best for them. so, in d.c., only voting for the issues that they care about. and then immediately returning home every week to work on the issues that matter most to folks here. we haven't had that, especially the minority, that's gonna be a big part of a win for me. >> horseman-elect, landsman, thank you so much for time. best of luck to you, we look for to speak with you regularly on this program. anytime you want to join us on a sunday night, you got the right spot fort. >> all right sir, absolutely, thank you for having me. >> let's bring with my panel -- guys, you heard there. ruth, i will start with the. we have the new york times dragging down and saying the trump is dragging that republicans endorse in the midterm cycle. we heard the congressman elect saying that if you're running on the big lie, or abortion, it's not gonna work for you. do you think that this is going

to be an issue going forward in 2024? that the big lie, and the motivating factor that we saw most democrats as a result of roe v. wade being overturned, will also continue into 2024? >> it can be. it would be true democracy if voters, preferences, are supplying a corrective to republican extremism. that said i do see the gop as a party that has exited from bipartisan governance. it is an autocratic party now. frankly, the reason they are or some of them is the disavowing trump is that he is just become liability for them to pursue their autocratic goals. so, perhaps, they will embrace a more, quote disciplined extremist. like ron desantis. who would never say something as it is cautious as, i could stand on fifth avenue and shoot

someone. trump said the quiet part out loud. now he's being punished for that. but we shouldn't think that the gop is going to become a moderate party. >> someone like ron desantis may be more political savvy in appearance and someone with donald trump, who would say the quiet part out loud. but the policies are not necessarily different. as we've seen with ron desantis willing to transport migrants from the border for political stunts. a political theater. basil, georgia republicans wanted trump to hold off on his presidential announcement. they do not have content that his house was going to help herschel walker. do you think it could hurt herschel walker's chances in the senate runoff that he's running for president? >> i think it could. i also cautioned voters and rapinoe warmth as a member of my fraternity. he tried to rally folks around the country, certainly in

georgia. and that stays on their haunches and make sure that they're fully engage in this race. throughout the, in my view, fell obvious public and voters are voting for the person. the voting is older and parliamentary elections. it is the agenda that they are voting for. the person is just a vehicle. the vessel. so they can overlook things that other voters wouldn't overlook. like personality, like ability talk about policy,. the speeches that -- there made that the whole campaign. but certainly in the last few days, has been incomprehensible. but that is not the point for those voters. they just want somebody that is way to pass for the agenda. so, yes i do think that the trump effect could bring out and motivate more democrats and runoff. and again he cannot take it lightly, that's about the agenda, now the person. >> all right, please stick around, we have a purchase of

mixed. a major new york times report says that this year's early leak of the supreme court's decision to overturn roe v. wade was not the first major decision to be leaked ahead of time. i was mine. i was mine luxury exemplified. innovation electrified. with apple music seamlessly integrated. the all-new, all-electric eqs suv from mercedes-benz. good news!

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and twice the choice. sirloin salisbury steak and all-natural salmon. perfect for lunch or dinner. only at ihop. download the app and earn free food with every purchase. let's turn now to a bombshell allegation involving the supreme court and in 2014 ruling on reproductive rights. the new york times reports the reverend, rob shank, a former antiabortion leader says he was tipped off about the outcome of a landmark lobby contraception and religious liberty case weeks before it was announced. frankly, is the running people and trickle nonprofit washington, said he learned about the lobby opinion because he had worked for years to us but the supreme courts permeability. he gained access, through faye, to favors traded with gatekeepers, and the wealthy donors whose organization. abortion opponents when we

called, stealth missionaries. 2014, two of his star donors -- addresses a lead on his wife. the next day the times reports one of those donors called shank and told him that a little had written a majority opinion and that the case would be decided in favor of hot -- and less in a month later that decision was announced of the public. nbc news has not confirmed this reporting. justice leader has denied that he or his wife leaked information about forthcoming decisions. the times notes that the evidence for his accounts of a breach has gaps. the port is likely to catch an even bigger shadow on this court. just months after the draft of a decision to overturn roe v. wade, also leaked. a decision, constantly. which was written by justice alito. my panel is back with me. basil, which we make about that that the supreme court justices having dinners with donors that could influence major decisions. you know, the to worse it out

to me from that or accepting the article was faith and donations. the reason that that stands out to me is because base is what essentially was driving, driving the work that was being done. their search on this mission to change, not only the court, but to change actual policy. they're on the site admission that were using donations as a means that about the infrastructure, to implement all of that. when i take my take away from this is that, yeah, i assume that this happens all the time quite frankly. but for a leader to have been at the center of this, if the center of this now. and he was such a leading voice and the dobbs decision. it's part of the hypocrisy of the court. what we're seeing now and yet with the justice thomas behavior is not recuse himself and so many cases you should

have. it just leads to questions about how much we can take this court seriously. >> what is this to the public's trust in supreme court. the polls consistently show the american public's confidence in the supreme court, or's impartiality is declining, and the clinic pretty rapidly over the last couple of years. >> because the court has shown itself to be, or to be the opposite of impartial. and it has become, recently, a rather rogue entity of politicized entity. and that is, of course, if you look at many of the people on there. they are highly partisan. they're ideologues. and that is part of weakening democracy. where you politicize institutions. i keep thinking that justice thomas it was in his news for conspiring to helping

overthrowing the election. that he was considering making it easier to sue media companies. that is exactly this kind of thing goes on. and in this case, it was the evangelical questions, let's never forget the very powerful force of the federal society of leonard leo. and these are extreme catholics who are also working, like william barr, also to damage the separation of church and state. which has been fundamental to our democracy. >> going up this new york times report. non for members in this case knew something they weren't supposed to. and they spread the word. what are the harms here for having prior knowledge of a decision? >> i think it is just as he said. he was a voter believe there's targeting this process. that there isn't a hidden agenda. but the law is the law, and the judges are going to read that in a way that, yes, they need

some function of their beliefs, it influences. but at least we'll do it in an impartial way. that is this broader agenda. throughout the is we don't know that anymore. we can't be clear about that anymore. and the concern has been, and melissa talked about elections and say that elections matter. it is because of situations like this. because the court is changed now. for a generation. so i cannot imagine this the last time we're going to be hearing about decisions being leaked, scales being tipped, or another. or justices not recusing themselves and situations where they absolutely should. this is going to be troubling for america, for the generation. >> ruth, this reverend, reverend check, he spoke on a podcast after the dobbs decision overturning roe v. wade came out. he said, quote, i don't think we would've gotten the decision

as it is worded from justice alito. without the work, we did. what does that say about how easily influence the supreme court -- released a perception that people like reverend shine think they can influence the court. >> it is this kind of porous nice and here we have another example of the role of dark money or big money in politics? between elections and if you are somebody who wants to wreck democracy, one of the things you want to do his ruin citizens trust in institutions. however the dobbs decision has sparked a huge democratization and of people who we saw the effect of the midterm elections. the court has backfired as well. >> all right ruth and michaels thanks to both of you for joining us as we can. which appreciate your insights, as always. coming up at the top of the

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okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we support immune function. supply fuel for immune cells and sustain tissue health. ensure with twenty-five vitamins and minerals, and ensure complete with thirty grams of protein. two years ago, this month, donald trump lost the 2020 presidential election to joe biden. he then embarked on a nefarious mission to delegitimized the results and overturn his loss of claims of voter fraud. of course, conservative media outlets like fox, newsmax, america news network, had no problem amplifying those election lies. lies, that is we know, culminated in the capital insurrection. joining suckling the puppet of trump's lies hadn't been repeated on those platforms. so, how did we get to that point? where an answer excellent could actually take place. how can we course correct from

here on out? that is the subject of the new bc documentary, spots, great which airs after this program tonight. and which i myself took part in. because january six was a result of more than just trump lies. it was a result of years of growing polarization, and spreading disinformation. part of which -- date back to barack obama's 2008 presidential win. does anyone out there was no question the power democracy. tonight is your answer. >> many americans felt like they have never been more optimistic about the peach of the country than the night that broke obama was elected. >> i can't believe it. >> so help you god? >> so help me god. >> congratulations, mister president.

>> not only how we've seen a viable black presidential candidate, we only see a limited number by candidates win in statewide races. a very small number of them one incentive traces. and so there wasn't a lot of reason to suspect that this would happen. and then all of a sudden, it happened. >> this former slave holding republic has demonstrated to the world, beyond question, its commitment to democracy. >> he started hearing irresponsibly exuberant statements like, we are a post racial society. >> the politics of racial grievance died tonight. >> >> and the face of that, he started hearing people kind of whispering that this won't go over well. there's going to be a backlash to this. >> all right, professor jelani compton spain after the break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. ♪

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difference information and polarization is the subject of the msnbc documentary, spots, great which airs tonight after the show. a 10 pm eastern. i'm joined now by jelani cobb, the dean of the columbia journalism school, an msnbc contributor was also featured in sports green. the top, it's great to have you with us, i would i discuss your comments in that clip we played before the break. how much of where we are now is because of what happened when barack obama was elected 2008? >> there's a huge portion of it. even if we just think about the kind of disinformation, one point, oh which was -- that comes directly out of the fact that barack obama had been elected president. the public is introduced to donald trump has a political or quasi-political figure. by him advocating the idea of it. that barack obama was not born

in the united states. so that was the very outset. you saw the palatable t of that. and the mark ability of that kind of completely backed three conspiratorial arguments that played out elements of racism, and xenophobia, and that became a blueprint for what he did in 2016. >> with other points beyond obama's win, in recent years, do you think of most contributed to this polarization. >> there is a lot. i think that there are elements that were present. i joseph mccarthy, for whom we call mccarthyism, most of things referred to as mccarthy-ism preceded joe mccarthy. and the same thing that could be said about trumpism. the conspiracy theories around immigration.

the rise social media. its ability to undermine traditional media. some of which have brought good reforms and benefits. another instances amid possible to spread after disinformation and that was happening prior to 2016. they declined interest in traditional media that have the same time. the cratering of local news. there is a whole array or a perfect storm of things that happened and -- that allow us to get into the kind of wide mired we find ourselves in now. >> it has been almost two years and generate the six. i myself am a critic of the media and how the media has coverage entering the sixth and in other instances of this extreme polarization. sometimes fall into this trap of both sides it is a. i got that right. both sides of islam's. and whataboutisms. how do you see the media over the past two years? are they getting it right?

are they getting better at that coverage? >> in some ways yes. in some ways no. one of the things we saw was that the crisis prompted the need to re-evaluate basic presumptions about news, and how news operates. we didn't have readily available answers for what do you do when somebody is extremely audacious. do you call live, live? do you call overtly racist actions and words, racist? what do you do with a person that is acting in bad faith, and it's only getting misinformation? do you allow that person on the network? on the station? on a podcast? one of the guidelines around that? how do you handle those things? all these things, which we had kind of a set presumptions about. but those presumptions proved to be insufficient. so what is really happening

over the course of the past five or six years. has been the medias been learning on the fly, about these things. and coming to different conclusions about it. some institutions, better than others, quite frankly. and so it's really kind of mixed bag. >> do you think that -- are we prepared, or the media prepared for 2024? especially when you see what is happening in a place like twitter? elon musk and banning donald trump, and other back actors on twitter, and this kind of arbitrary aware that the owns twitter? >> by large, no. i'm really concerned about that, honestly. the nightmare scenario as what to do -- we did have this is an issue with the midterms, thankfully. but what do you do if a candidate refuses to concede? and says that they want? or what do you do and a real disaster scenario, where state legislators have gone wrong. with false claims that a

candidate won, when they lost. how do we report around that? do defer to simply the republicans they won? the democrats say that they won? or do you response what actually the evidence points to? there is a lot of reason, to be uneasy about how the media would handle a potential crisis moment like this. >> i've got to ask you, really quickly. are you optimistic with the students that you are seeing at the journalism school? >> extremely. >> that is very reassuring. >> very clearly, i see a lot of young people who are dedicated to the work of democracy as relates to journalism. that is one of the best things about my career. >> i gotta say, if we saw a little bit of that during the midterm elections, people turn out and if they continue to turn out to the future it is bright. professor indeed, jelani cobb, salsa pleasure, thank you so much for being here. >> the documentary is called sports green, it is going to hear next after this program. don't go anywhere, when we back

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