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♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. it is an uniquely american phenomenon, easy access to guns combined with a steady stream of rhetoric that radicalizes people and appears to encourage violence. but time and time again results in deadly violence against a minority group in our country. the latest in what has become a lengthy list of tragedies, five people killed at least 19 injured at an lgbtq nightclub in colorado springs saturday night by a guy wearing body armor and with an ar-15 rifle. at least two identified ashley leaves behind a husband and 11-year-old daughter. she was on a day trip to colorado springs with her friend. and david ashton, a bartender at the club, his mom sabrina said he lit up the room and was

always happy and silly. the attack was a senseless loss of life that could have been even worse if not for the bravery of two of the club's patrons, take a listen to the mayor of colorado springs. >> this is taking place very quickly. the police get a dispatch 11:57, they arrive at 12:00, by 12:02, the individual, the perpetrator is subdued that is largely because of two, but primarily one, as i understand it, are able to take a handgun that he's got in his possession, take it away from him and use that weapon, not by shooting it by hitting him and disabling him. it's an incredible act of heroism. >> the suspect has been charged with five counts of murder, as well as five hate crime charges. the shooting having occurred in one of the only places in colorado springs where lgbtq people could gather and feel safe. "the new york times" reports this, quote, in its early days 20 years ago, the site for club

q was collected in part because of its setting. well back from the nearest road which is offered its clientele the protection of not being seen entering and leaving. and though the nightclub has evolved into a place of refuge and comfort for the lgbtq community being club q has never been easy. in the intensely conservative colorado springs. the amount of violence that erupted there saturday night was at once unimaginable a place where people are accepted as they were and stitched into the background of a place that in many ways had evolved in positive directions until a man in body armor walked into the club and opened fire. the theft of violence into the lgbtq is tragically nothing new. but this takes place in a dramatic spike in lgbtq rhetoric on the right in the last few years. with the campaign being driven by members of congress and conservative influencers on

social media. as well as the right most favorite tv network, fox news. "the new york times" on that part of the story, events featuring performers in drag have received disapproving coverage from some of the most prominent voices on the political right, including fox news hosts tucker carlson and jesse watters, who frequently claim that the events are danger us for children. similar events, politics have amplified the message including representative lauren boebert of colorado, who has spoken out get, drag bars, on several occasions. on sunday, boebert said on twitter that the news of the shooting at club q was absolutely awful. a deadly mass shooting at a refuge for lgbtq people in colorado is where we start today. frank de lucy is here, former fbi director of

counterintelligence and national security analysis. also tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark as well as an msnbc political analyst. dave cohen joins us, he's been writing about mass shootings for years. his latest best seller "parkland." and michigan democratic state senator mallory mcdaniel is here. she's well-known for fighting back for republican attempts to marginalize the lgbtq community. i want to start with you, dave. there are parts of the story that are all new, and horrors, in people's lives that have ruined anew, in a mass shooting in a place where people are feeling themselves. but there are patterns now. they're such well-worn occurrences like the ar-15 style rifle. the shooter wearing body armor,

which is remarkable, because most of these shooters do an extraordinary amount of damage before anyone returns any fire. >> yes. and, you know, god, it was shocking to me, because i lived in colorado for 16 years. and i spent so much time at gay bars in colorado springs. that's where i started the book i'm working on now. and it is a rough place. it was called evangelical vatican at that time. it was pretty intense. i don't know if they're still calling it that. i was taken aback by not just the bravery here, of all of the mass shootings that i can remember, frank or somebody else might know, gabby giffords shooting in tucson, is the only other one i can recall where an unarmed person disarmed the shooter. in that case, i believe it was an unarmed colonel, until somebody jumped in. and they waited for the person to reload. in this case, the person jumped

in. they're telling me they believe now it was actually a transgender bartender who did it. sorry, i get a little choked up. all the hate going against these people, you know, talking about these people, you know, you know, unworthy, and, like, how many -- either some gay guy, or some transgender person is willing to stand up, stood up to a gunman. and you know -- you know, more than you and i probably would be. and get this, i'd just take cover, quick to take cover. you know, who would -- all of those people, you know, blowing all of that crap at us. you know, drag queens. what the hell. what's wrong with a drag queen? but anyway, for all of those

people, look, the biggest man here. >> you made me cry, dave cohen, you're right, we've all covered mass shootings and have never really covered this particular set of facts. tim miller, your thoughts? >> yeah, that's a tough one to follow. i'm with dave, colorado springs, look, you shouldn't have to be a hero at a gay bar, i guess, is the first thing that i'd like to start with. yeah, so a good on that person. and we should focus on them, hopefully, we'll get to hear their story in the coming days. but, gay bars shouldn't require a hero. i think if you look at colorado springs, to dave's point, this is not the easiest place to be gay, colorado springs. you have the air force academy right there. folks from the family right there, so it is a very conservative community. and i think in that intro to

"the new york times" article, the interesting thing about club q, now you that see the pictures there, it's like in a strip mall next to a bowling alley, quite a ways from downtown. this is not in the central district where other bars are in colorado springs. i think this reflects the type of community this is where his refuge, that we keep using, a lot of that is even separate from where the rest of the revelry takes place. in part because that's where folks felt safe. and a place where folks needed to go to feel safe. so that to be the place that does get shot up, does bring extra pain with us. one thing i wanted to make sure i mention, el paso county is a second amendment sanctuary. so, colorado passed the red flag law, jerry pollis has been a good governor in colorado.

passed the lay, and colorado springs passed a law that made them a sanctuary from this red flag law. when people ask now, why was this guy who had called until a bomb threat on his mother allegedly, a year prior, able to purchase this high-powered weaponry, and part of the answer to that question is colorado literally tried to pass a law to stop a shooting like this. and yet, local republican politicians in el paso refused, in some ways -- may not have refused to abide by the law, but are going out of their way to not abide by the law. and so, you know, people say don't politicize the shooting and in the fallout. i'm like, how can you not politicize the slaughter that happened. putting aside motive and all that, that i am sure you can get into. this was preventible with the law on the books in colorado, and yet this conservative

county, thought it was more important that people have easy access to these weapons of mass slaughter than making sure that people are safe. and so, it's just tragic on every level. >> frank -- >> can i make another point? >> go ahead,please. the el paso sheriff vehemently opposed the law and narrows the circumstances where it can be used in office. the policy is they would seek this only if there are urgent circumstances and probable cause that a crime is being or thought to be committed. and quote, that he believes the red flag law is a violation of fourth amend, violating search and seizure, he would enforce the law if he only has cause that a crime has been committed. >> it's amazing. frank, i want to bring you in on this.

increasingly because of the clip which we're all together covering mass shootings in america, the victims' families do want a call for changes. for the only people who don't want to talk policy at the time of the mass shooting is the republican party. most everyone else is for changing the laws that allow people like this gunman to have easy access to ar-15 style rifles. >> the vast majority of americans when polled on red fla laws are absolutely in favor of it. we've got to pull on this thread a little bit more. allow me to do that with regard to this county, and yes, that's right, the sheriffs there have come out and said -- it's even worse, it's bad enough to say, hey, we're really not going to enforce the red flag laws, we're not going to do our job to protect and serve the community. but it's even worse. because what they've said is we're not going to be the ones who petition for the seizure of those weapons under colorado

law. colorado law says there are two parties who can temporarily seize weapons until they figure out a threat. the police and family members of the threatening person. so, let's process that for a second. let's take this example. this shooter threatened to blow up his mom's home. so, in this case, the police, the sheriffs are saying, yeah, well, hey, we're not going to be the ones to take his weapons, because, you know, we're going to have mom request that. think about that in a spousal abuse situation, where you've got this abused spouse syndrome where they don't even want to press charges, thank god they dialed 911 because they're getting beaten. and now the sheriff has to say to them, you've got to be the one who tells us to take his property. that's simply not how it happens and that's not how red flags were designed. 19 states and the district of columbia have red flag laws,

researches they're being woefully underused, and particularly so in colorado. and even more so not used in this particular county. so, you can have all of the laws in place, but if you've got sheriffs who simply don't want to protect and serve their communities, this is what's going to happen. the other thing i want to comment on is the predictability and inevitability of this. the department of security has warned us about the increased threat to lgbtq communities, particularly pride events and high-profile events. it's not like we can't say -- when reporters even on nbc are interviewing people in the community, i heard one person saying i stopped going there because we thought it was going to happen. we saw it coming. inevitability, predictability, and the lack of intervention even when the laws allow them to do something. can we predict that this person's encounter with law enforcement last year with the bomb threat if they took his with respects this would not have happened?

no, we can't predict that, but it could have put him on the center of the screen for law enforcement and would have lessened the likelihood. and woe be on to the sheriff if we find out that the long gun used in this murder spree was sitting in his house last year when police interviewed him. and they had a chance to take it and they didn't take it. >> you know, senator, not everybody who consumes right-wing media carries out a violent act. but everyone who carries out a violent act targeted at any minority group, in this case, this bar, has hate in their hearts. and this culture of hatred is not confronted in the way you confronted it, with enough frequency. and not enough people are nipping it in the bud. and so it sits out there. you have the man who beat paul pelosi was an avid consumer of conspiracy theories. you have anti-lgbtq rhetoric

spewed on the most watched hours of fox news at a regular clip against the u.s. military, against gay men and women, against gay teachers, against their right to exist. speak to the dehumanization that goes on all day, every day, in america. >> i mean, it's absolutely repulsive to watch the number of people in the wake of this horrific tragedy not wanting to take any responsibility. you know, hate doesn't exist in a vacuum. and this has been a record year, 2022, for anti-lgbtq legislation led by the gop. antitrust legislation, and we now see with tiktok, on the very same day that this shooting happened targeting another drag show in colorado. we've seen windows being smashinged at gay bars. we've seen like this person,

yes, we don't know the motive yet, but this is clearly a hateful person. when there's a constant drum beat from respected officials from respected messengers, from tv networks, saying that these people are wrong, and they're trying to damage your children, people are going to take action. this is straight out of the qanon playbook where we saw a shooter open fire with ping-pong believing there was a basement there with children. this exact same language of grooming and pedophilia targeting the lgbtq community it kills. so anybody who is out there claiming free speech and trying to distance themselves from it.

yes, we have free speech in this country, but it has consequences. and you can't take part in this continued onslaught of words against the lgbtq community and not look at this and have blood on your hands. >> wow. i want to turn some focus, there's so much to the story to get through, but you've all taken my breath away. i do want to play some sound from a survivor. this is joshua thurman on this network earlier today. >> i went in the dressing room, and a customer followed me. i don't know what happened, but as soon as we got in the dressing room, i told him to close and lock the doors, we cut the lights off and we got down on the ground. and one of the people that was in the dressing room with me immediately called 911. club q was home for a lot of people. it was -- it's a place for performers to make a name for themselves. it was a place -- it was a home.

it was not just for the lgbtq plus. it was for everybody. you know, the -- we were welcoming community, you know. it was -- it's so much to say about that place that i don't even know where to begin, it's been there for years. i've been going there since 2010, and it's always been a home, no matter what. >> you know, dave, there is his hallmark of hate crimes that have at their heart, you take a sanctuary, you take a haven, you take something really, really special. and you destroy it. you turn it into a target for your hatred. it's just the more you hear from the survivors, it's so clear that's what this was. >> it isn't scary, sort of taking me back to my early coming back days, probably in my 20s, the first time i went into

a gay bar in dallas. i remember so clearly, i parked in the back, and the scary part is you can walk around to the front so you're on a public sidewalk, a busy street that anyone can see you. you know, you're outed, potentially, if one of your friends was driving by or co-workers. and i just raced to the door. i remember, i couldn't get air in my lungs. i was just so terrified, and just to get in that door, and i did it. and you'd think all all the windows would be blacked out so no one could see in. once you got past that door, it's almost like running through a mine field. and it's okay, i'm safe now. and, you know, actually, i forgot when i was in colorado springs, the big club then was hide and seek. that's when i was like meeting a lot of gay soldiers and researching them, still active duty. and that club closed -- colorado

was closed for drinking at 2:00 a.m. but then that club became an after-hours club at 2:00 a.m. and no more alcohol, and kids 18 to 21 would come. it was sort of like the cool, fun place. all of the soldiers got their asses out of there. because then straight kids would come and who knows, anyone could see them. it was this panicking, i've got to get out. it's almost like midnight, you know, cinderella. it's been a long time. you know, i've been out -- i'm in new york city. i don't care, i don't give a but it's taken a while like to remember what it's like in a place like colorado springs. when i was in denver, my boyfriend at the time wouldn't hold hands with me when we went to a rockies game because we might get beat up. yeah, the whole thing was a sanctuary. i think if you've never, you know, had something like this in your life, you don't really understand the extent of just

how safe you feel, because you don't feel safe a lot of other places. >> tim, i want to show you the other side of that which is this feeling it was only a matter of time. this is colorado state representative briana tutan, he's colorado's openly trans legislator on the shooting. >> this is something, you know, we've been on edge for a long time. because of the rhetoric comes out of a lot of places, especially the colorado springs area has been really damaging and dangerous. anymore these myths and those tropes are spread around about us, it drives people to say hateful things. and hateful things being said turns into bullying and then it turns into worse. and that's what we're trying to stop. and if we can just get people to

stop saying these things, start demonizing and villainizing lgbtq, especially transyouth. >> how do we make it stop? how do you short-circuit the whole cycle of hate, tim? >> well, that's a big question, nicolle. i don't know, the first thing that we can do is make sure people understand the repercussions. the thing that just makes me cringe so much after all of these shootings, it's like -- this all happened around pulse. you have to know, did this guy actually try to kill people because they were gay or not? that matters, i guess, that matters we need to find out whether or not the hate crime matters legally. but even if their motivation was just this person picks the nearest club that he can find and starts shooting people, that doesn't make this reaction coming out of it, particularly from people on the right that i'm seeing on social media okay. to like minimize this, or to

continue, as pointed out, on tiktok, to continue to attack drag queen, to continue the feeling is unsafe bad enough, the fact that this person, parker, said they were no longer going to club q because they felt unsafe. that in itself is tragic and horrible. when dave was talking there, what resonates for me, this feeling, particularly in a community like colorado springs, like, you know, the threats do bind people tighter in a certain way, right? so this feeling when you're in a community like that go into the gay bar and be able to take a deep breath. like, i'm among my people, and i feel safe. but to have that taken away with words is bad enough as it is. so, hopefully, one thing that we have made some progress on, in the country, i do think, you know, the most extreme voices on social media that are getting more and more threatening and worse and worse. you know when you hear from young people now, i do think that like just this casual

anti-gay, transphobic kind of rhetoric is like not okay in some corners. certainly in a lot more corners than maybe when dave and i were growing up so that's good. that's progress. >> yeah. >> taking away that sense of safety just with the rhetoric is good. and then the shooting is just this whole other element to it. the answer is law. this was a preventible shooting and el paso county particularly avoided it the ways that it could have been prevented. >> i have so much more to get to with all of you. i have to sneak in a quick break. i ask you. still ahead over the course of the next two hours. colorado authorities are holding a news conference. it starts at the top of next hour. we'll take it live, of course. we're hoping to learn more about the other victims in saturday's shooting plus what was known about the shooter before he went inside what nightclub. we'll bring it to you. plus, the manhattan d.a.'s

office is just starting the payment from the former president to stormy daniels. and also ahead, we'll look closer at the u.s. supreme court, following brand-new explosive reporting, that controversial ruling which leaked in advance to conservative activists, leaked in advance, to prepare their pr efforts, it's another blow to the already beleaguered institute in america. and now democrats are calling for a review into what they call are serious allegations. we'll have that and more when "deadline: white house" continues. don't go anywhere. dline: white continues. don't go anywhere.

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i didn't expect to wake up yesterday to the news that the senator from the 22nd district had overnight accused me, by name, of grooming and sexualizing children in an email, fundraising for herself. so, i sat on it for a while, wondering why me. and then i realized because i am the biggest threat to your hollow, hateful scheme. because you can't claim that you are targeting marginalized kids in the name of quote, rights if another parent is standing up to say no. i want every child in this state to feel seen and heard not marginalized targeted because they're not straight, white and christian. we cannot let hateful people tell you otherwise, to scapegoat and deflect from the fact that they are not doing anything to fix the real issues that impact

people's lives. and i know that far hate will only win if people like me stand by and let it happen. >> i played that again today when i was covering this, you said exactly what i thought you said, if people straight, white and christian stay silent, they win. what is that burden in that? >> it is our burden to recognize that it's on us. you know, it's really easy to target and marginalize a group of people that represent a minority of the population because their a minority. and it works when those who are members of a majority let it happen. who think to ourselves, it's not about me. i don't want to step in it. i'm going to just wait until it blows over. because the reality is, it's not going to blow over. i want to give credit where

credit is due. i haven't watched it yet, but my mom, in the wake of my speech and everything that we've done, she spoke last night at a school board meeting in bucks county, pennsylvania, about efforts to ban books that feature lgbtq characters. and that is what it's going to take, is people in every single community, standing up and looking out for each other, and change is possible. to echo tim's point, yes, it's going to be about laws. but it's also going to be about all of us paying attention about who is writing those laws and putting people in office who will not attack people for their own political gain. or to score cheap political points, making the bet that the minority group isn't going to push back. and that's probably true. because based on the numbers, it would be impossible for that to happen. but the rest of us can stand with them and say it's not okay. you won't do it on our watch. we all stand together. and we see that you're just

scapegoating. so that's what we have to do together, i'm kind of living proof of that happening, i'm from royal oak, michigan which was home of father coughlin who during the great depression, really became the first right-wing media empire. had tens of millions of listeners on his radio show that was anti-semitic and hateful. and many decades later, i am here. we're now a community that is still deeply religious people and members of the lgbtq community and we're welcoming the diverse. it happens over time, if all of us step up. >> you know, frank, you have sort of educated us over the year, about the extremism movement. and the nature of it, how it easily transfers from targeting anti- -- from sort of being inspired and rallied and most emotional about an anti-semitic week. and then moving quickly and seamlessly to, you know,

anti-translegislation that riles a group up for children's hospitals that are targeted. when is a horrific and heinous thought for me. i cannot get my brain around that. but just talk about this sort of network of extremist groups and their targets and causes. >> yeah, you know, this toxic mix of hatred plus clinging to assault weapons is the laziest way, targeting your opponent. targeting what you don't like is the laziest way out. and seemingly, they think, the easiest way to just make what you don't like go away. but the senator's got this right. it is it about instilling fear. and the correct response for the rest of us is to step up and push back, right at them. so it's hatred, it's clinging to weapons. it's ignorance of the other, demonizing the other. we said this over and over again. but strategically, what appears to be happening is they want to

deny people the safe haven and safe harbor, whether we're talking about kids in school feeling unsafe because of guns. black churches like they're going to get shot up at a bible study that's happened in south carolina. whether it's synagogues, whether it's the gay club on a weekend night, there seems to be a concerted effort to not only instill fear but deny the safe places. and that puts them in control. and then the theory is if you're fearful enough, you're not going to push back. but what we need to see happening is the exact opposite. we need to see accountability and consequences. first, a real quick hate crime charge here on top of the homicide charges. applaud that, that tells me prosecutors and police, they found quickly what they needed. that means they know this was a bias crime. this is likely, since we've heard reports that the subject isn't cooperative with police, that means they likely found clearly and convincing evidence on his devices. if he's a consumer, of the

people we just rattled off from lauren boebert to tucker carlson, let's get it out. let's get it out at trial, let's expose it for what it is, name it and shame it. he's a consumer of these people and those people should face civil consequences from the victims. the other thing they want to deny is not only the safe harbor, but the way we resolve this. by that, i mean, you asked earlier, how do we put a stop to hate. one of the things you would normally do is teach young children in school, here's what race is about. here's what these other people over here, who may seem different to you, they have a different orientation. but increasingly, states are saying, no, no, no, you can't talk about race, say the word "gay" or teach anything in school. >> yeah. >> so, they deny the resolution mechanism that we would normally use. >> it's amazing, tim, and i think that's what makes all of this conversation bigger. i mean, this is sort of the

clash in our civilization right now. that the antidote to hate is tolerance. and i think all kids -- everyone is born tolerant. you're taught to hate. but it is tied directly to republican movements all across this country at the state, local and federal level. they were trying to suppress the teaching of tolerance and diversity and identity, and they are at this very same moment, in the very same policy platforms, advocating for free and easy access to guns. this is such a huge fissure in our politics and our party. >> it is. it is. i think that there are two things when we look at this it from a political context, we can keep in mind at the same time. one, it's true that there's an increase in anti-gay, anti-trans legislation and rhetoric of guns from the right. the other thing that's true, on

the balance, the biggest picture, the biggest and those stoking the hatred are losing and they're losing badly. and they are not in control, right? they think this might be a way to get in control by menacing drag shows. and, you know, i don't think we mentioned that was a drag show, club q that was happening that night. they think by menacing marginalized groups and threatening them and putting new laws in place that that puts them in control. what that actually is a gap over a movement that is losing and declining. just this year, we saw in the midterms, the most hateful candidate in swing districts, doug mastriano, kari lake, they were rejected wholeheartedlywho. lauren boebert nearly lost. lauren boebert which is not colorado springs but also in the colorado springs district, there are conservative people who are not for this.

they do not want, you know, mentally deranged terrorists to be able to get weapons of war without any inhibition. they do not want, you know, gay people to be targeted and menaced. and there are people that are conservative but do not want this extreme regime they're trying to put through on the far right, right now. and they have agency to get rid of the sheriff in el paso that is doing this. to get rid of lauren boebert next time, you know, when she's in charge. and i think that that, you know, that is a way that we can engage in this constructively and continue to make progress. >> dave cohen, you get the last word. >> i agree with what tim said, you know, what we said earlier, it's not okay to say these things in most circles for people. it's also, most of them won't have the urge to. that's what's really changing, you know, in the '70s, the big

bugaloo, we're the family, we're your friends, we're your co-workers, we're your nephews, your brothers, your uncles. sand i also want to say, like tolerance, i've been doing a lot of social research, cultural research, tolerance was a word i actually hated early on. it's like nobody is tolerated. that's horrible. after toleration, it's sort of acceptance, where people actually accept you. but even there, you know, i have a lot of peers and people of my age group who accepted me and they're fine with me being gay. definitely don't want me beat up or laws against me. but there's still a cringe factor. they also don't want to hear about it, or picture what i do

or anything. it's like, makes -- they want to be okay with it, but they'll never think about it, or picture without cringing. people over probably 40, 50, 60, are probably going to have a lot -- will have that cringe factor to the day they die. and people mostly under 20, under 30, they're going off without the cringe factor. they don't have to be taught to tolerate you, they're like, we're just part of that. so they're never going to have to get past that. i think tim is right, this is sort of like the last gasp of people who really still have that cringe factor. you know, trying to -- and that's where they're targeting kids in schools. >> right. >> and trying to get back, make those kids hate us again, at an early age. i don't think it's going to work mostly. >> i don't think so, either. you've all given me some solace

and some hope. and you've made me cry, tim miller, dave cohen, mallory mcmorrow, in my heart, and thank you for sharing this conversation to be continued. frank will be back in the next hour when we cover that news conference in colorado springs live. switching gears for us, to politics, again seeking the charge against the ex-president with the hush payments to stormy daniels. remember that. michael cohen joins us on that. don't go anywhere. e. ♪ now she's got a whole team to help her get the most out of her plan. ♪wow, uh-huh♪ with coverage that's better than ever for dental... ...vision... ...prescription drugs and more. advantage: me! can't wait 'til i turn 65! aarp medicare advantage plans, only from unitedhealthcare. take advantage now at uhc.com/medicare

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"the new york times" today reporting that the manhattan d.a. alvin brad is re news his office's criminal investigation into donald trump. it's been an investigation that's for months has appeared to be dead. prosecutors are zeroing in on the former president's hush money payments to adult film star stormy daniels who said she had an affair with trump in 2006. the inklings of this new investigation comes to stage after a special counsel was maimed to investigate trump into federal investigations one is classified documents taken from mar-a-lago and another in his actions and january 6. joining us now, michael cohen, host of the mea culpa podcast. and the author of "revenge." so, michael, i know you had provided information to alvin

bragg's office under his predecessor. just take us back in time and remind us of what crimes trump potentially committed here in the hush money payments to stormy daniels? >> well, it goes back to the topic of campaign finance violation. however in this specific case, it appears that there's even more that there might be a secondary case that they're looking at, which is how he treated the hush money reimbursement payments to to me. you know, my understanding is that they wrote it off, that this is some sort of a write-off to the company, as a legal expense which obviously, we all know that it wasn't. but once again, this just becomes the curious case of alvin bragg. where is this case going it would have been great had he stepped forward in this "the new york times" article, or gone on television, announced that we are pursuing this case against donald trump for campaign finance violation, as well as

misrepresentation on the tax documents. >> michael, you know, just -- there's some facts that i think are hazy, but you're right, i mean, a very, very accomplished and respected prosecutor, mr. pommerents was working this case in this office, he left, was it news to you that it was revised? i mean, what is your sense of what happened then? and what sort of -- did alvin bragg wake up with a conscience? what theories do you have that this cape to be in "the new york times" today? >> yeah, i have no theory as to how it showed up there, what i can tell you, it wasn't just -- and i totally agree with you in terms of the totally of mark pomerantz as a lawyer. he's a phenomenal lawyer. terry dunn, both resigned in protest, as a result of alvin bragg not permitting them to go

forward and to file formal indictments. i learned the same way everybody else did. i started receiving a reverse of phone calls and emails and text messages from a multitude of journalists that were asking me for a statement. and my statement was, i have no idea. i have not -- as of this writing, i had not spoken to alvin bragg, or any member of his office. so, at the end of the day, i guess we'll what happens. >> it's such a remarkable turn of events. i want to ask you what evidence you provided alvin bragg's office, and what else you think they have on this? and if you think they pursue it, trump will be indicted? >> the evidence is crystal clear. it was provided not only to the d.a.'s office, the attorney general's office, as well as the southern district of new york, when they were prosecuting me for the campaign finance violation. it's an amazing thing. he has the affair. he directs me, so what i did i

did at the direction of and for the benefit of donald j. trump, i end up getting charged with it. not only do we have the stormy daniels case of the campaign finance violation. but there's also the carol mcdougal case which was paid for by the national enquirer, david pecker and ami. so, again, i don't really have a lot of answers here, other than to say they have all of the documents that they need. they have copies of the check. they have a copy of the nda -- the nondisclosure agreement, that was provided to stormy daniels. they have obviously, his tax returns, and they have not only my testimony, but the testimony of others, in regard to how thi $130,000 was treated for tax purposes by the trump organization, allen weisselberg and the accounting firm. >> michael, i remember when -- i remember where i was when rudy giuliani told sean hannity that,

you know, yeah, trump asked you to make the payment and we have the pictures of the checks that trump wrote and we know he he wrote them from the oval office. what facts are missing? i mean, what evidence needs to be developed by mr. bragg? >> yeah, i'm not really sure that there's anything. i mean, it's almost like what's going on with the new special counsel, mr. smith. it's the same thing now. one of the things that i'm hoping that he does is he bifurcates the two issues, the january 6th hearings vs. the other matter, which is the mar-a-lago seizure of the stolen nara documents. that to me is the easy case. that's the low-hanging fruit. so i do hope he he bifurcates the two and he he just automatically goes straight for the easier one, again, the stolen documents. so let's think about it. for more than a year, possibly closer to a year and a half, nara and the government were

asking for the return of these documents. and donald of course refused to do it. so they go to a judge, they get a judge to fill out a search warrant, signed off. and this is unprecedented. so it was not taken lightly. they then go and they raid the resort that donald is staying at. they go directly to the places that they know those documents are at. and what do they recover? hundreds of documents, many of which are stated -- written right at the top of the documents top secret or, you know, super classified. that in and of itself is a crime. so i don't know why merrick garland needed to appoint a special counsel in this specific case. i mean, this is cut and dried stuff. the january 6th hearings i could understand. and that will take a much longer period of time. simply because you have 1,000 people who had provided testimony. you have a million documents.

you have a two-year plus investigation. the, again, mar-a-lago documents, a no-brainer. and just like this with alvin bragg it's just -- we all know the information. we all know the facts. we've all heard it 100 times. we've seen the evidence. now it's just time to go for the indictment. >> well, i want to ask you -- we have to stick in a break. but you're so right. both in the hush money case and mar-a-lago one of mueller's stumbling blocks was they could never really get intent. we know the intent. it was to keep stormy daniels quiet. everybody knows the intent. we know on the documents that he said they're mine, i'm keeping them. so you're right, all of the sort of dots can be connected in terms of what's public facing, which cannot be the sum total of all the evidence that's been developed. i want you to stick around, though, michael. i want to ask you more about the appointment of a special counsel and how trump and his allies will exploit that. stay with us. we will be right back with michael cohen. with michael cohen.

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michael cohen, you know and saw and dealt with the last special counsel in a way that no one else i ever get to talk to did. what advice do you have for this special counsel? >> well, i think he he just has to be quicker.just has to be quicker. in finding a result. with robert mueller, not only did robert mueller have to deal with a slew of individuals who were fighting the subpoenas, who refused to come in to testify,

but even worse than that is he had to deal with bill barr, who then truncated the report, took things out, wrote his own report, dropped it and issued it earlier than what it was supposed to. so my recommendation is just push the matter forward. it's something that, again, i don't understand why merrick garland even requires a special counsel for this, again, document issue. it's just not necessary. and i applaud him for wanting to be methodical, for wanting to ensure that people have faith in the justice department and it's not partisan. if you are a trump supporter and they go ahead and indict donald, everyone's going to start yelling witch hunt, witch hunt, witch hunt. if you are a trump detractor you will say well, thank god somebody finally did something to hold this man accountable and to demonstrate that no one is above the law. >> michael cohen, it's always a treat to get to talk to you

about these developments. you help us sift through what's really there. thank you very much, my friend. >> unfortunately, i lived through it, and you're welcome. >> thank you. happy thanksgiving to you. a very short break for us. up next, another blow to the united states supreme court. we'll bring you that explosive new reporting next. w reporting t . until i finally found new downy rinse and refresh! it doesn't just cover odors, it helps remove them up to 3 times better than detergent alone! find new downy rinse & refresh in the fabric softener aisle. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection.

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when courts become extensions of the political process, when people see them as extensions of the political

process, when people see them as trying just to impose personal preferences on a society, irrespective of the law, that's when there's a problem. and that's when there ought to be a problem. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. we saw with our own eyes during this month's midterm elections just how much anger over the supreme court's decision to overturn roe vs. wade was a driving force for voters, how this flash point was a major reason that democrats were able to stave off a red wave. it was an energy that was sustained for many months since the draft opinion of the dobbs decision was first leaked back in may. now with confidence in the supreme court at historic lows there's brand new reporting in the "new york times" that pulls back the curtain on another potential leak, this one happening years before the overturning of roe, regarding the ruling that family-owned corporations do not have to pay for insurance covering contraception if it violated

their religious beliefs. the "times" reports this. "in a letter to chief justice john roberts and in interviews with the new york times the reverend rob shank said he was told the outcome of the 2014 case weeks before it was announced. he used that information to prepare a public relations push, records show, and he said that the last minute he tipped off the president of hobby lobby, the craft store chain owned by christian evangelicals that was the winning party in the case. the times puts the leaks in perspective with this. both court decisions were triumphs for conservatives and the religious right. both majority opinions were written by justice samuel alito. but the leak of the draft opinion overturning the constitutional right to abortion was disclosed in the news media by politico, setting off a national uproar. with hobby lobby, according to mr. schenk, the outcome was shared with only a handful of advocates. schenck says he was told of the decision by one of his donors, gale wright, who contacted him

after she and her husband had dinner with justice alito and justice alito's wife. justice alito denies the account saying, "the allegation that the wrights were cold told the outcome of the decision in the hobby lobby case or the authorship of the court by me or my wife is completely false." the blockbuster "times" reporting has sparked calls for investigations by lawmakers. senator dick durbin, chairman of the judiciary committee, says his committee is reviewing these serious allegations which "highlight once again the inexcusable supreme court loophole in federal judicial ethics rules." a closer look at the u.s. supreme court following this extraordinary new reporting is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. joining us kimberly atkins store, senior opinion writer for the "boston globe" and the emancipator. also joining us our good friend john heilemann, host and executive producer of showtime's "the circus." the executive editor of "the recount" as well. and former senator claire mccaskill's here.

all msnbc contributors. i have to start with you, claire. it's almost -- you could tell a joke. how bad is it? it's so bad for the supreme court after being the cause, the driving force for democrats to defy decades of midterm election history just got worse. another account of a leak of another alito opinion. >> yeah. and remember the righteous indignation of all of the trump senators and all of the right about how dare anyone leak anything? well, if you read this entire account, and i urge people to do that, to read all about what these groups were doing to try to infiltrate the court and influence the court from joining the historical society to getting invited to parties, they were -- there was a campaign to infiltrate the court and -- i

mean, showing up to pray with members of the court at key moments. and here all along alito clearly, based on what i thought was very credible information from this minister, was the one who told someone about it. and i said all along, it only made sense for the people who supported the alito decision in dobbs to leak it. because they knew, if you know the history of roberts and what he's tried to do with the court, he wants to bring them together in a narrow place of consensus. and i believe he was probably trying to do that around the mississippi law and trying to not overturn roe but rather just say the mississippi law was okay. and i think it was leaked by the right to keep him from being able to move other justices whose names appeared on that leaked opinion. i think they wanted to lock it in early so that nobody had a chance to wander before the opinion was issued. it's the only thing that makes

sense. >> it is, kim. and the problem that the supreme court has is that they don't all care about the same things. and the reason we know that is because they're all giving speeches and, you know, boo-hoo, woe is me, nobody likes us anymore, but then they all do this. and it seems to me that roberts is only becoming like a john boehner figure, right? who is viewed as someone who wants to do the right thing, who understands the whole of the country but he's totally lost control of the more extreme members of the supreme court. >> yeah. this is no longer the roberts court in that way in that he no longer sits at the center and has that control over the court. i would only quibble a little bit. because all of the justices don't do that. you played a clip from justice elena kagan, who has made a point to not speak at it & appear at the more liberal groups, the liberal -- they're not equivalent, but those who

were created to be sort of an answer to the federalist society and to the heritage foundation. she doesn't think that that's proper. she doesn't think that that's something that supreme court justices should do because of that appearance of impropriety, because of that appearance of conflict. so not all justices do this, but a lot of them do, including justice samuel alito, who has given speeches since the dobbs decision, acting in my opinion as some sort of christian crusader that is fighting against this alleged attack on religious rights in america when in fact religious rights, religious freedoms by the supreme court and other laws and the constitution is one of the most protected freedoms that we have. that's just a falsity. but that sort of feeds into this idea. and this idea that this reporting -- i agree with claire that it's very important because for years, for the better part of a decade these well-funded groups have been courting the

conservative members of the court, trying to stop short of telling them hey, we want you to rule in this way or the other but saying things like we want you to put god at the center of the legal discourse, the right to life and religious freedom, at the center of this in a way to really try to court influence. but the court, it seems to have been working by all appearances. and if opinions or the result of the court's vote is being leaked to this group, that's extremely troubling and that's precisely why i think members of congress now are moving again to try to put the supreme court under the same judicial ethics codes that we see other federal -- that other federal judges are held under, because this is the opposite. these are lifetime appointments. the idea is they're independent. and if they're not then something about that needs to be changed. >> yeah. and let me be clear. to kim's point, john, amy coney

barrett, alito, and i think roberts have given speeches complaining about the court not being respected as it used to. i think the justices appointed by democrat presidents have tried to warn them along the way. justice sotomayor in her arguments for dobbs said the stench of doing exactly what a republican-led legislature wants us to do will be on the court. and as kim said, justice kagan has tried to warn her conservative fellow justices as well. but the conservatives do a whole lot of public complaining that people do not hold the court in high regard anymore, and it is the conservatives who have dragged public opinion according to gallup to its lowest ratings in the history of gallup asking people what they think of the supreme court. >> you know, i think about whining, self-pity, grievance, people who are entitled, people

who have a great sense of entitlement but also somehow feel as though they're put upon. you know who does that remind you of, nicolle? >> it's amazing. >> the signature political figure of our age. you know, that in the trump era, an era in which all of those qualities were glorified and raised up to the high pinnacle of the presidency, the fact that they have seeped also into the supreme court on the conservative side i guess is more -- is a sign that a bunch of political culture indicators it is anything about those individual justices. i think all of us who've watched the court over a long time we all like crave more transparency. you know. there was a time when william brennan or earl warren would go and give speeches at universities and would go out and the rare moments when they would come out and hold forth about things, you know, if you were a student of the court you considered those great moments where they would step out from behind those -- in some ways out of their robes in some way and sort of step forward in their

plain clothes and sort of talk about what the court was like or what the kind of big debates were of the day. i would never want to discourage them from engaging in that way because in the best circumstances they feed the public discourse. but in a way identifying, it helps demystify the court. unfortunately, right now the court's doing a pretty good job of demystifying itself on its own. and as you point out, there is only one side in this debate to blame for the low regard that the court has been held in. it's not a new thing but it's gotten worse and worse. and i'll say one last thing to claire's point. i mean, if you you think about this story, the piece in the "times" talks about all these elements, attempts to lobby, attempts to work the political levers, to treat the court like it's a political body. and kim talked about some of the more theistic kind of impulses of the right-wing crusaders. think about this. the kind of influence that people have on the outside now on the court is for donald trump the way he picked his judges was he turned to the federalist

society and said give me a list. if you're on the list you get on the court. if you're not on the list you don't get on the court. and that -- the kind of pernicious influence that kind of thing has. to be a supreme court justice you've got to be on some group's list. think about how undermining, how corrupting that is. we're seeing it play out every day. >> that's such an amaing point. claire, to heilemann's point the notion that perhaps the institution donald trump destroyed the most fully is the supreme court is stunning on one level but obvious on the other. this is the latest approval rating for people who have a great deal or quite a lot of of confidence in the supreme court. in 2000 it's not on my list but it was 60%. in 2020 it was 39%. by july 2022 it was 28%. now, if you want to look at a list of people who have a 28% approval rating, i can't even think of any other institutions that are down that low. i mean, the republican party is well above that.

unpopular presidents have never reached that number. i mean, it is an extraordinarily low number at which to function with any legitimacy. and i wonder what you think the consequences are of the supreme court, which was at 28% who had either a lot or a great deal of confidence in the court, before a story of a second leak of a second alito opinion. what happens? >> well, i think my friend sheldon whitehouse needs to spend as much time as possible over the coming months continuing to expose what he knows very well. this is a senator who's really studied the flow of money, money with a capital m, to various groups to try to file amicus briefs and to hint in amicus briefs to the court where they want them to go on another opinion. and then really we need to do a whole show on the federalist society. most americans don't --

>> let's do it. >> -- understand the tentacles of the federalist society, that they recruit on college campuses. you're told as i alaw sunt in this country, nicolle, if you ever want to be a federal judge when a republican is in charge you must be a member of the federalist society. it's required of people, young people. and then the guy in charge of it, leo, he was spreading more dark money in this election than maybe any other person in the whole country. so you've got one guy in charge of the list of judges that go to the supreme court and spending literally hundreds of millions of dollars trying to influence campaigns behind the curtain. it is scary stuff. and it will drive those approval numbers even lower if the american public fully comprehends what's going on. >> well, and we've been talking for, i don't know, about ten minutes and we haven't said anything about the other flashing yellow light. i mean, a special counsel has been appointed to investigate

donald trump's potential criminality around january 6th. guess who was talking to donald trump's chief of staff about the fake electors plot, which is very much under criminal investigation by the special counsel. ginni thomas. i mean, kim, at this point -- and there's no evidence the court wants to clear its name with the 72% of americans who don't trust it. what could they do if they wanted to? >> yeah. i mean, i think particularly with the january 6th committee any potential influence that ginni thomas may have hinted that she has with the court needs to be examined. we don't know exactly what that is. but i want to get back to claire's point because i think it's so important. we have three branches of government. we have the judicial branch, which is supposed to be independent. they are not elected, the federal judiciary. they have lifetime appointments because they're supposed to work

independently and judge the laws and the constitution based on their own interpretation of that. that's very different from the judicial and the executive branch with elected officials who get lobbied, right? you have people, you have interest groups, they contribute to campaigns. and what claire is talking about with this money that is being spent to influence the supreme court is exactly antithetical to the way that branch of government is supposed to work. and that's what is so important and people don't understand when it comes to these groups. and that is the problem with this. and i think the fact that people don't understand and pay attention to it is these groups' biggest advantage, right? i think the more that we talk about this and bring this up and the more that congress brings this up, whether it is congressman johnson or senator whitehouse or others, it's really important for the edification of the public the same way that the january 6th committee edified the public about the threat to democracy. i think lawmakers need to edify the public about the threat to the judiciary, which is supposed

to be independent but it only works when that influence is not there. >> and you know, heilemann, senator whitehouse has been at this for a long time but never before have the exit polls showed i think what they showed. i think the first piece of exit poll data that we saw was this 60% number of everyone who voted in the midterms that disapproved of the supreme court. it's also the same number voters who disapprove of the dobbs decision pp. but do you think the political climate could force the supreme court to do something it never has ever appeared to want to do, and that's to appear to have more integrity than most americans think it does? >> nicolle, do you want me to be a pie-eyed optimist right now or would you like me -- >> no, i want you to be like thanksgiving week brutally honest. >> yeah. you know, look, if you think --

think about another institutional kind of reform issue like this, like campaign finance reform, right? where if you go around america over the last 30, 40 years even before citizens united, go around and talk to people about whether they think money is corrupting in politics, whether they think there's too much money in the campaign finance system, whether they think that something's got to be done to get the influence of big business and finance, to mute their interest and not have this just be a big casino in our politics, man, i can get you very, very high on polls of people who will say damn straight, got to take care of that. and then, you know, we go to the voting booths and we vote on other things. because in a lot of cases these things feel very abstract. now, has dobbs changed that? i'll never, you know, downplay the significance of dobbs. when it first happened, i said i don't know what's going to happen here, we've never seen anything like this before. and it had an incredibly profound effect on this election starting in kansas last summer,

all the way through midterms. is the rolling back of a fundamental right, is that the thing that takes this out of the realm of the abstract and allows people to start thinking about the court and all of the mechanics that kim was just talking about, that claire is pointing to, we've all been talking about, how the federalist society, the right-wing money machine, all this stuff, citizens united was not a mistake, it was an act of policy, it was an ideologically driven court that was carrying out the interests of its backers. all of this -- there's an incredible nest of things that are going on here. and a lot of people know them and don't do very much about them. i wonder whether dobbs, because it's translated into such a visceral, tenable thing for so many americans, whether dobbs -- and opportunities precedented. we've never seen anything like it before. a fundamental right pulled back after 50 years of precedent. does that change the way america looks at the court not just in lowering its approval ratings but making it more interested in a sustained way that would drive -- that you'd need to drive some kind of very hard long fight for reform, i do not

know the answer to that question today. but that is the only way it's going to happen. it's going to be a long fight and people are going to have to really care for a long time, not just for ten minutes here, ten minutes there because of one story or the other story. the public's got to be engaged, got to be engaged for a long battle. >> i think that is the $64 million question. right? is that the number? 64? or is it 62? 60 whatever million dollar question. >> 64. >> and mitch mcconnell is the legislator most responsible for the supreme court. if it has become a political ball and chain that makes it impossible for mitch mcconnell to ever be the senate mangt leader again i think that has bearing on the questions you just asked, do they care. is the political price too steep to pay? so intriguing and so great to talk to all three of you about it. kim atkins-story, john heilemann, thanks for starting us off. claire sticks around for the hour. up next for us when we come back the republican election official forced to go into hiding in arizona as the losing candidate, maga favorite kari lake,

continues to spread debunked claims about the results of a race she lost. sound familiar? top democratic election attorney marc elias will join us to talk about that. and later in the hour we are expecting a news conference out of colorado springs. officials there will be briefing on the horrific mass shooting at an lgbtq nightclub. it is scheduled to begin at 5:30 eastern. we will of course bring it to you as soon as it begins. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ter a quick b. don't go anywhere.

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to the surprise of absolutely no one lake has refused to concede the election and is pushing the lie that it was stolen and that it was rigged. as we've seen time and time again, the big lie has dire consequences. those consequences impact the people who run our elections. bill gates, he's the top elections official in maricopa county who we should again mention is a life republican confirmed to nbc news earlier today that he's been moved to an undisclosed location for his safety due to the threats that have persisted from kari lake's supporters following her defeat. despite some technical issues at polling places in maricopa county on election day, officials have said that every ballot cast was counted and that claims made by kari lake and her supporters are, no surprise, false. joining us now, marc elias, voting rights attorney and founder of the democracy docket. so marc, even when the news is good, that the election turned out better than some of us feared it could, there's still a horrific incident like this

where a lifelong republican, a public servant, an election official is now in an undisclosed location out of fears of his safety and security. >> yeah. i mean, we talked about this before the election, that there are really three phases to this. there is the voting process. there is the counting process. and then there's the certification process. and election deniers are targeting all three. we're done with the voting process. that's good. we are largely now done with the counting process. but the threats we're seeing in maricopa county toward not just the republican election board but also the republican elected recorder of maricopa county are just outrageous. they are threatening people who are trying to do everything right by counting votes because republican voters have been lied to by people like donald trump and kari lake. >> you know, i reminded folks of that same frame, not as

eloquently as you just did, but that january 6th happened two months after and it because of all the people who enabled trump's lies about losing to joe biden that january 6th happened. so that's mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy, and every republican elected official. we also now have seen with our own eyes, shame on us, and ruby freeman, what happens to these people who are demonized by election deniers. what needs to happen both to protect mr. gates and to make sure that the conditions for violence are intervened, that that doesn't happen again? >> the first thing is what you just alluded to. and we talked about this before as well. where is kevin mccarthy? where is mitch mcconnell? where is ronna mcdaniel in calling out the threats that are be k made? where are they in standing behind the republicans who are running elections in maricopa county? they're quick to run to a microphone to protect the lauren boeberts and the crazy house

conspiracy caucus. but when you see republican election officials in maricopa county doing their best to count ballots and certify elections, all of a sudden these republicans run and hide in the shadows because they're afraid. they're scared. and it's really shameful. >> we have another election to prepare for. and i guess in some instances brace ourselves for. and that's georgia. what are you seeing and what do you want to see ahead of that, marc? >> so right now, you know, the big thing going on in georgia is we filed a lawsuit on behalf of the democratic party and senator warnock's campaign because the state of georgia was not going to allow there to be voting on saturday after thanksgiving. notwithstanding the fact that a number of counties, both democratic counties and republican counties, want to have voting on that saturday. now, we went to court. we won. unfortunately, we've seen the state of georgia and the republican party appeal that. and we're going to wait to see what the court of appeals says.

but it is a real testament to where the parties stand after the election. when there's been all of this rhetoric about, you know, are the republicans going to move to be more pro democracy? well, the first opportunity they had to be more pro democracy they intervened in a lawsuit to prevent people from being able to vote on saturday. and that is something that i hope you and your viewers will pay attention to as that case moves forward in what will be a very close runoff election. >> we will do our best to do that. i want to bring claire mccaskill into this conversation. claire, what are you hearing about georgia from your sources on the senate side? and i think there's news today that president obama will bring his magic touch to that race again. he was an incredibly powerful force in these midterms. >> lots of energy on the ground in georgia. but i want to take a minute to pop off, if i might, nicolle, about what is happening in arizona because as marc well

knows the republican party has tried to march towards eliminating people's ability to vote easily. in other words, they want it to be inconvenient. just look what he talked about in georgia. they're going to court to try to keep local election officials from allowing people to vote on a saturday before the election. they're trying to stop them from being able to vote. how dare these people in arizona, how dare kari lake? all they found is voters said they were inconvenienced by problems at the polls. this is a party that doesn't want anybody to be able to give water to people waiting in freaking line to vote. and they want to complain that their voters were inconvenienced? i'll tell you were they were inconvenienced. they were inconvenienced because they've trained them that they can't vote by mail, they can't put their ballots in a secured lock box that is safe and secure and will be counted as it's always been counted in this

country. they're the ones who have created this. and it's going to bite them in the you know what. because i'll just tell you in missouri, where the republicans swept the table by record margins in every election, and do you know what the recent poll in missouri said? 40% of missourians think there was fraud in the election. because they've trained these people to believe every election is fraudulent. so even when republicans win now their paritiness -- and i really care about mr. gates. he's a lifelong republican. he's trying to do his job. it's thanksgiving week. and he's hiding from his own party. i hope that never happens in our party. i don't think it will. >> and nicolle, if i could just -- >> yeah, go ahead. >> if i could add one really quick point, you know, claire makes an excellent point about the narrative that republicans are trying to spread in arizona that somehow they were the victim of voter suppression.

i mean, if you look up the term chutzpah in the dictionary, you find the idea that kari lake is saying that there is voter suppression. they're complaining that there were long lines. well, you know why there were long lines? there were long lines because the kari lakes and republicans have been making it harder to vote in arizona. they're complaining voters were disenfranchised due to voter registration laws. you know why? because kari lake and the republicans have made it harder to register in arizona. they're claiming that ballots were thrown out due to mismatched signatures. you know why? because when we sued arizona to make signature matching more accurate and make it easier for people to cure their ballots they opposed us. and by the way, on the long lines point, while they're crying crocodile tears about people waiting in line for an hour or two in maricopa county where are they talking about the students who waited for six hours in the cold in michigan to vote in their election? >> no, i mean, listen, i want to -- >> i got marc -- >> go ahead. >> i've got to tell you this.

i know marc elias fairly well. and to see him get fired up like that, i've done my job today. because when you get marc elias fired up you know you've got the facts, the evidence, and the law all on your side. >> all right. well, let me put some more brutal truths out there. we now have a multiple loser running for president again and back on twitter. the three of us have had many conversations about the climate. and marc, to claire's point, in missouri -- and texas is another example of this from 2020. republicans did very well, and they went out and passed out a voter -- election integrity law. there wasn't any voter fraud. and the more secure places were the ones that were targeted, the drop boxes. i mean, talk about the danger, the ongoing danger to democracy even after a midterm that had a whole lot of bright spots for all of us democracy lovers. >> yeah. look, democracy is fragile. the fact that we weathered through the midterms is no guarantee about the future. and we know what donald trump adds to the equation.

he brings not just election deniers to the table but he brings violent election deniers to the table. and it is quite telling that the 2022 election cycle began with violence the day after a senate victory in georgia and it ended with violence with the attack on paul pelosi before the midterm elections. and donald trump's re-emergence into this mix is going to make our elections less safe and secure but are also going to mean more violence and more intimidation for people who are trying to constructively engage in the political process. >> yeah. i mean, claire, i think that's the only part of the trump candidacy that matters to us as a country. i mean, as a political story he's so, you know, 2016's news. but as a domestic threat he's at the center of all of that which endangers us. conspiracies about the election, conspiracies about rigged elections, grievances.

the intolerance, the hate he spreads. it's at the heart of everything that endangers us. >> when you run a campaign based upon hope and optimism and aspirations and shared values that unite us, you get people trying to help one another and looking positively at the future. when you run campaigns based on grievance and culture wars, and it's not just donald trump. ron desantis did the same thing. you get violence. whether it's in paul pelosi's home or whether it's in that club in colorado where gay men and women were going to feel comfortable and at ease, that someone came in there and shot them. ron desantis was passing laws in florida objectifying and demonizing gay people. and donald trump has done a lot of that work around democracy and around people that don't look like you, around black and brown people. the grievance and the distrust and the hate lead to violence.

they don't lead to a coming together. and if this election stood for anything it stood for the fact that the majority of americans, no matter what their political party, said we're going to reject the election deniers and we're not going to give the republicans the majorities they're looking for because frankly we don't buy what they're selling. and thank goodness for that. but marc's right. we can't assume, okay, whew, that's over with, we've got that done. we've got a lot of work ahead of us in the next two years. >> claire mccaskill and marc elias, thank you so much for this conversation. officials in colorado springs are just starting that news conference on the deadly mass shooting in an lgbtq nightclub over the weekend. let's listen in. >> thank you, everyone, for being here this afternoon. i'm lieutenant pamela castro with the carter springs police department. i'm the public information officer for the police department. just like yesterday i wanted to start out touching base on some information that we have already

shared, make sure everybody has that information. hopefully all of you have seen that we sent out a news release earlier today with some updated information about the victims in this case. as of noon today we released that we have five deceased community members. that has not changed since yesterday. we have 17 community members who are injured because of a gunshot wound. we have one community member who is injured but not because of a gunshot wound. and we have one community member who is a victim with no visible injuries. this final area is the area that we expect numbers to change. and that's why we have reached out to the community to all of our media partners to get out there, we know there were more people at the club and we really want to speak to them. they could be victims of a crime. and so we are looking to talk to

them and identify them if at all possible. the fbi has been a great partner through this, and they have set up a tip line for us. anybody with information, if they were there, they have video, they were driving by, they might know information about the suspect, anything at all no matter how small or insignificant they believe it might be, could we please call and let us know about that. that phone number is 1-800-call-fbi. and they have dedicated people who are there to talk to anybody who calls in. today we are going to have a couple of speakers. i want to go through the order of the speakers for you. again, at the conclusion of this if there's any spelling of names that you need we will be happy to get that to you. the first speaker today will be

carter springs police department chief adrian vasquez. the second speaker will be carter springs mayor john suthers. the third speaker will be colorado 4th judicial district attorney michael allen. and our final speaker will be united states attorney cole finnegan. i also want to acknowledge our law enforcement, fire and medical partners who are present today and have been supporting us and our community from the beginning. they are fbi acting special agent in charge matt fodor, atf denver field division special at in charge david s. booth, carter springs fire department chief randy royal, and penrose hospital ceo patrick sharp. at the conclusion of the designated speakers there will be a chance to ask questions. the questions should be focused

on what we are sharing today or what we have previously shared. please understand that this is an ongoing criminal investigation and out of respect for the judicial process there are simply things that we just can't share information on. first up to speak will be carter springs police department chief adrian vasquez. >> thank you, everybody, for being here to cover this incredibly important event. just a horrific and sad and tragic event. today i just want to talk a little bit about some of the victims in this incident. you know, too often society loses track of the victims of these sad and tragic events in all the talk about the suspect. we strive to give the victims the dignity and respect that they deserve as well as shine the light of public attention on the victims. therefore, we are identifying them now. please know that while all of the victims' families have been

notified they are suffering a horrific loss. so i ask everyone who is listening to keep them in your thoughts and show them the care and heartfelt compassion that they deserve. none of the families want to do media interviews at this time. and i ask everyone to respect their request. we respect all of our community members, including our lgbtq community. therefore, we will be identifying the victims by how they identified themselves and how their families have loved and identified them. the first person i'll identify is kelly loving. kelly's pronouns are she/her. daniel aston. daniel's pronouns are he/him. derek rump. derek's pronouns are he/him.

ashleigh paugh. that's p-a-u-g-h. ashley's pronouns are she/her. raymond green vance. raymond's pronouns are he/him. i wanted to ensure that every victim, family member and friends of victims and all our community members know that our officers and detectives will continue to be dill sxwrent thorough in our work to hold the suspects accountable for these horrendous acts. i also want to reiterate that the colorado springs police department and that i am standing beside you as we move through and come to a conclusion in the investigation and seek justice for all of our victims. as i end, i ask that everyone in our community and around the world honor each victim lived. i want to take a moment of silence to honor those community members who lost a loved one. please join me in a moment of

silence. thank you. i also want to identify the two heroes who intervened inside of club q. their exact actions are part of the investigation, so we can't discuss the specifics out of respect for the judicial process. but with their permission we want to acknowledge their heroic actions. they are thomas james and richard fierro. again, thank you for being here and covering this incredibly important event. and with that i'd like to introduce mayor john suthers. >> thank you, chief. and good afternoon. thank you for being here. as mayor of colorado springs and frankly on behalf of all the citizens of colorado springs i want to again express our

heartfelt condolences and unwavering support to the victims, their families, the lgbtq plus community, and everyone affected by this tragedy. i had the opportunity before i came here today to talk to richard fierro, identified as one of the two heroes that subdued the suspect in this case and in my opinion and i think the opinion of everyone involved saved a lot of lives. i won't talk about, you know, the nature of what he told me about the incident. i will just simply talk about i have never encountered a person who had engaged in such heroic actions that was so humble about it. he simply said to me i was trying to protect my family. i would also like to thank our community. the whole colorado springs community and the whole pike's peak region. for the outpouring of support they've shown.

i can't tell you how many people have reached out from the city, region and frankly from across the country expressing their love and support for colorado springs and the club q community. and speaking of the club q community, we are joined here today by two co-owners of the club, matthew haines and nick gisecka. thank you for being here and thank you for the support you've shown and the cooperation you've shown in making sure that you help us reach out to the community and help us serve the ends of justice in this case. a lot of people are wanting to know how they can help. we know that the victims and their families need our immediate and long-term support. and i want to tell you about the colorado healing fund. that's a fund that's been in existence for some time. actually, it was utilized during

the boulder tragedy where several people were killed in boulder some time ago. it's set up to provide a secure way to donate to victims and family members in incidents such as this. and they are ready and able, and they've already talked about appropriating money existing in the fund to the club q shooting victims. and what i want to emphasize to the public is that if you choose to donate through the colorado healing fund at coloradohealingfund.com, you can be absolutely assured your donations are going to the right place. now, for people needing support during this emotional time, the colorado springs police department is hosting a community resource expo to provide our community members with the help they need in navigating the variety of emotions they may be experiencing surrounding this event. that expo is being held at the university of colorado colorado

springs. kevin o'neil, cybersecurity and research center at 36050 north nevada avenue. it's open today until 7:00 p.m. and tuesday and wednesday from 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. the expo is providing mental health resources, spiritual support, emotional support, animal support, child care, emergency financial resources, lgbtq plus support, meals and other services. basically, whatever any person adversely impacted by this incident, whatever their needs are, they can help in supporting their needs. the event is designed to be an inclusive and safe space for all community members to gather, grieve and obtain the support they need to cope during this difficult time. if you need this, i'm speaking to the public, please take advantage of this resource. you can find details about both

the colorado healing fund and the community resource expo along with other resources at coloradosprings.gov/clubq. i'll repeat that. coloradosprings.gov/clubq. again, on he behalf of the city of colorado springs i want to thank everyone for the outpouring of support. we all want to ensure that our community is not defined by this tragedy but by our response to it. thank you very much. now i'll introduce michael allen, the district attorney of the 4th judicial district. >> good afternoon, everyone, and again thank you all for being here. the devastation this violent act has had on our community cannot be measured. but we do know that we will respond to it in a strong way,

that we will hold people accountable as we identify what charges should be filed in this case. it's imperative to note that the investigation continues and will likely last for some time. it's very common in homicide cases that the investigation continues clear up to and sometimes even during a trial in front of a jury. and that will likely be the case here. there have been reports in the media and in the public that charges have been filed. that is not true. any case like this an arrest warrant will be written up that is supported by a probable cause affidavit. and that will be submitted to

accompanying pc affidavit is sealed. that is to protect the investigation, to make sure we have a strong investigation, that we have the ability to proceed forward with a strong prosecution. at some point in the coming days, that seal will be lifted and the arrest warrant and pc affidavit will be available to the public and to the media. once the case is transferred to us for formal charging we will review the evidence and determine final charges. it is also very customary that final charges may be different than what is in the arrest affidavit. typically there will be more charges in a case like this when we do formal charging than what is actually listed in the arrest affidavit, so don't be surprised when you see a different list of charges when we finally file formal charges with the court. once the suspect is released from the capitol, we will have a first appearance scheduled with the court. that should happen in the next couple of days although that is

to be determined by his care providers at the hospital. that appearance will be by video, so he will be in the jail and be appearing by video. we will advise the suspect at that time of the arrest charges and his bond status. he is being held without bond, so he will not have the opportunity to be bonded out. within a few days of that first appearance is when we will return to the courtroom and file the formal charges with the court. that will again be another bond advisement by the court as well as potential punishments the suspect will be facing as it relates to the charges we file from the d.a.'s office. it's important to note that we are not going to try this case in the media. we will only share information that we can share, and that is not to cause frustration in the community or deprive the media of information that the public absolutely wants. it is to protect that prosecution effort. we have an interest in making

sure that any conviction we achieve in a case like this can withstand the appeal process, so we'll be very careful about the information we share, at least as it relates to the d.a.'s office, but that obligation we have ethically extends to the investigation team as well. so oftentimes when you ask questions of them and they defer and say they can't answer it or because they're trying to protect the investigation, that's because my obligation of being tight with the information extends to the investigation team as well, so don't hold that against them. you can hold that against me. at this point i would turn it over to u.s. attorney cole finnegan. thank you. >> thank you. on behalf of the united states attorney's office and the department of justice, we want to express our deepest sympathies and condolences to the victims and to their families and to all those who

were part of the awful incidents, roughly 36 hours ago at club "q." we are committed to working with district attorney michael allen, mayor john suthers, chief vazquez and our partners to bring justice to the people who suffer in the this instance and to bring justice to those -- those people who were call involved. this was awful, and we pledge on behalf of our office be the department of justice that we will work as hard as we can to find justice in this instance. thank you. >> hopefully i can cut off a couple of questions with these

answers. so a couple of things moving forward for everybody to be aware of. as you've heard multiple times, this is still an ongoing investigation. we expect to be at the scene for the forthcoming days. it's not going to be over quickly. it is going to be done thorough by and appropriately. we'll continue to partner with our federal partners throughout this process. currently people who have vehicles in the parking lot will start receiving phone calls from our detectives to release those vehicles to the registered owners. if those vehicles belong to victims then we will use our victim advocacy unit and detectives to work with those families. if somebody is the registered owner of a vehicle they know they left there and they are not contacted or they had loaned that vehicle to somebody else, you can call us at the colorado

springs police department's nonemergency line, which is 719-444-7000, and a detective will touch base with you to make sure we get that car returned to that registered owner. additionally, at the conclusion of this conference, we will be releasing pictures of the victims that were provided by the family. these are the pictures that the family would like to be released so that everybody remembers them as they remember them. that will be done through our social media account, so you'll be able to get the high quality pictures there. that is all of the information we have to share at this point in time.

i'll open it up to questions, and then we'll pick the most appropriate person. just be patient. there's a lot of people here and to make sure everybody watching knows the question that is asked i'll repeat it or if one of the other individuals comes up to answer it, we'll repeat it before we provide that answer. sir? >> [ inaudible ] were you aware of the suspect's previous interactions with police, and why wasn't the red act law pursued? >> the question was about prior interactions with police and our red flag lou. i'll let mr. allen, our district attorney, answer that. >> thank you for that question. this is going to be a very unsatisfying answer as it relates specifically to part of your question. the red flag question is something that i think none of us up here are in a position to answer. but as it relates to the first

part of your question, i want to talk about this in a way that hopefully makes sense to everybody. colorado has very restrictive sealing laws. what that means is if a case is filed in a courtroom in the state of colorado and is dismissed for any reason, whether that is because the prosecution dismisses it or the court dismisses it, it is automatically sealed. that is a change in the law that occurred back in 2019. so only three years ago. that same statute require us to give specific answers about cases that may or may not be under a sealed order that i just gave you that requires us to say in response to questions about it that no such record exists. so when you ask questions about specific prior incidences, that will be our specific answer. but i wanted to give you a reason why that's the answer

that we're giving. i acknowledge that it is very unsatisfying at this point. openfully at some point in near future we can share but that's the answer we can give you, and it's going to be the same for everybody up here. the design is to protect persons accused of crime and charged and the case is dismissed. the idea is that person shouldn't have to carry that charge around with them for the rest of their lives if there's no way to convict them of that charge. that's the design behind it. i know that's an unsatisfying answer, but that's the status of the law as it exists right now. if that changes to that specific thing you're asking about, i'll be passing that information out. yeah, yeah. the mayor just brought up a good point, and it relates to the red

flag law. the d.a.'s office doesn't play a part in the red flag lieu. that would be up to a law enforcement agency. that's why i say nobody in this group can answer that question. it has to be initiated by law enforcement or a member of the public, not by the d.a.'s office. >> sir. >> as of october, the el paso sheriffs never fired for an extreme risk protection order since the law's been passed and colorado springs pd filed two. my question is more the mayor and chief vazquez. mayor suthers would you like to see law enforcement use that to prevent future tragedies? chief vazquez, given the previous interaction they had with this shooter would that change your perspectives? >> the question was regarding to the red flag law and the police department not related to this investigation but