she has taken is such an important test to -- people rally behind this because there is an appetite for this. or does she go down as a loser. you know? i think that is really an open question >> sure, we are talking about individual candidates. what happens if you have a rogue legislature? that is the more dangerous proposition. individual candidates,, one that does want to concede, that is bad. you know, that is bad form. eventually they're gonna have a backlash for that person. politically. what do you do if a handful of people in a swing state decided they don't want election to go that way it actually went. >> jelani cobb with the columbia school of university -- a great to have you. a new yorker. great to have you. that's "all in." good evening, rachel. >> good evening. much appreciated. thank you at home for joining us this hour. the first 911 call came just a few minutes before midnight. it was 11:56 p.m. saturday

night. technically that means it was four minutes before the transgender day of remembrance. a day that honors the memory of americans who have been killed simply for being transgender. a shooter in body armor reportedly carrying a long gun, an ar-15 semi-automatic rifle, as well as a handgun, had entered into a night club called club q in colorado springs and started shooting people. within minutes, five people were dead, another 18 people were injured. tonight, local authorities announced the names of the victims. this is daniel aston. he was a 28-year-old transgender man, a bartender at club q. his mother helped the police identify his body by his tattoo which is a heart pierced by an arrow on his left arm, wrapped in a ribbon that says mom. this is derrek, another bar

tender at the club. 38 years old. his friends told reporters that he was known for blasting britney spears songs so loud you could hear them from the parking lot. this is kelly, a 40-year-old transgender woman. she was visiting club q. she was in colorado springs on a weekend visit from denver. this is ashley, 35 years old, a mother and a wife. she had stopped by the club that night to see a comedy show. and this is raymond green vance. just 22 years old. he was at the club with his high school sweetheart and her family. they were there to see their friend perform at a drag show that night. all the lives lost in a handful of minutes. and at least another 13 victims remain hospitalized tonight. colorado officials said tonight that the suspected shooter is being held on suspicion of five counts of murder and five

additional counts of committing a bias motivated crime causing injury. formal charges will likely be filed after the guy appears in court. as of now, he still hasn't. as of now, he's still hospitalized. how did he end up hospitalized himself? it is an incredible story. i mention that one of the victims, raymond green vance, was at the club that night with his high school sweetheart and her family. his girlfriend's dad was there. his name is richard fiero. he retire as a major after three tours in the army. three in iraq, one in gaens. he earned two bronze stars. he was at club q saturday night with his wife and family supporting his daughter's friend who was part of the drag performance that night. when the shooting started, richard told "the new york times" that he hit the floor right away. he pulled a friend down with him.

he said he then saw the gunman moving toward a door that led from the inside of the club to a patio area and he knew that dozens had fled out of the bar on to that patio to get away from the shooter. when he saw the shooter heading toward that patio, he chased them down. erased across the barroom. the gunman was reportedly wearing body armor. richard fierro said he grabbed the gunman by the handle on the back of the body armor and pulled him to the floor and jumped on top of him. i want to stop to point out that the suspected gunman is reportedly well over six feet tall and he weighed something on the order of 300 pounds. mr. fierro said he's 300 pounds and he said this guy was bigger. so tackling this man even if he wasn't armed and the shoeing people. but he was able to grab him and throw him down and that

apparently knocked the long gun, the ar-15 style rifle out of man's reach. mr. fierro said in addition to the ar-15, he had a handgun as well. he grabbed the handgun away from the gunman and started hitting him with it. now, since the man was wearing body armor, mr. fierro said he was trying to hit the man where he could see and feel that the man wasn't protected by the body armor. he hit him where he could find skin. he was hitting him with his own gun. he ended up hitting him in the head over and over again. he yelled for other club patrons to help him. one man was able to help. he said one of the drag performers came out and stomped on the gunman with her heels. the whole time richard said he kept hitting the shooter in the head. and he remained on top of the guy until the police arrived. he himself was covered in blood by that point.

the police ended up tackling him, tackling richard fierro, putting him in the police car not knowing he was the hero and that another suspect. here's richard fierro speaking with reporters outside his house in colorado a short time ago. >> i tried to save people and it didn't work for five of them. there are five people that aren't home right now. and i thank god, it's thanksgiving. i went through in thanksgiving in iraq, man. we lost dudes. i don't know what else to do. i hope people use this and shake someone's hand, shake a hand, give them a kiss. these are good people, man. these were all kids. the guy, joshua, who was dancing with my daughter, may wife and joanne, they went and hid.

he saved my daughter's life, man. i couldn't ask for anything more. richard talking with reporters just a few minutes ago this evening. that man that he just mentioned, joshua, i should tell you, first of all i should tell that you officials said tonight that a second individual other than richard fierro, thomas james, was also credited by officials tonight with helping subdue the suspected gunman. in terms of police, they arrived quickly. they arrived six minutes after the initial 911 call. i said that initial 911 call came in four minutes before midnight. the police arrived two minutes after midnight. they were there very fast. even so, by the time the police arrived, the shooting had stopped. because these patrons themselves they're the ones who pinned the suspect down. beaten him senseless with his own weapon. officials are investigating this attack as a potential hate

crime. they haven't confirmed any motive for the attack at this point. but you heard there, he mention ad man named joshua who was dancing with some of his family members. he grabbed his daughter and pulled her to safety. here is the man we believe mr. fierro is referencing there. his name was mr. thurman. he was there saturday in it. here's him describing part of his experience saturday in it. >> i crawled out literally on my stomach. i saw the police. they didn't know we were in there. once they found us, we were escorted out. when we were escorted out, bodies on the ground, blood, shattered glass. people dead. it was sad. yeah, it is a shock.

this is the only lgbtq space we have in the city of colorado springs. we just had the remembrance earlier this year, you know. like, it's a big shot. it's our safe space is no longer our safe space. we come here to enjoy ourselves, to get away, like everybody else does. to get away from the b.s. just for a couple hours. how can we do that now? >> how can we do that now? joining us now, matthew haines and nick grzecka, the co-owners of where this mass shooting happened. i am so sorry for what you've been through. thank you for being willing to be with us tonight. . >> thank you. >> i've tried to summarize the

basics. is there anything that i've gotten wrong or anything you can add that you think the country should know about what happened and what the response you with a like once this horrible incident got underway? >> i think what people need to remember the most are the innocent victims. they're no longer with us tonight. the 18 people that were injured, the countless more people that had trauma injuries. that's what i think everybody, that's the biggest part tonight. >> that's what we see hundred dollars us. that's what we see. we've had tremendous community support. we've had tremendous support from the local colorado springs police department. we've had tremendous support from the mayor and all the state officials. so we couldn't have asked for more support. the reaction that night was

outstanding. we had so many police officers. we had such a responsibility. we've had a very good history with the colorado springs police over the years and it really shone that particular night. that tragic night. >> i know two of the victim who lost their lives saturday night were your employees, daniel and derrick. can you tell us a little about them? >> they were wonderful. they were, they're more than employees. they're family. they were the heart of what club q is. they are what most of our customers would have had experienced. they both were incredibly passionate. they worked amazingly well together. they were great friends. these are our extra family members. so many people behind them. so many lives they've changed.

i cannot do their memory justice. when you look on the facebook pages, you look at everyone else, all the individual experiences people have had with these wonderful men, it tell an amazing story. and it is what the last 20 years of club q has been about. not just club q but they embody what this type of bar is. what a community bar is. what community really is. they were amazing. >> i wanted to say what we're learning as a country learns more about this story, what happened at club q and what happened saturday night. one of the things people are struck by. all sorts of different people were there. definitely gay people there, queer people there, transgender people there, straight people with their families. people in multigenerational groups enjoying the show. it just felt lake the most

diverse imaginable group of people there. people who have come out in support of what happened there tonight. and i wondered if you could speak to that a little bit? especially given how much political hate has been directed at the queer community and the transgender community over the past couple years from the political right? >> that is what club q is. where all these people can gads together without hate, without prejudice to feel safe, and that's every night at club q. every night at every queer club across the world. that's the devastating thing is this community has lost their space. the community that they've built inside that space can be taken away. >> we talk about hate. but for all the hate, there is still so much love. and that is what we've had in

this bar. that's what the saturday night was a representation of what every night is there. it is full of a community of people. when i say community, i don't mean just gay people. all the allies. all the support we have. this is 2022, after all, and we have come a long way than where we started 20 years ago here, building this business. so there is a lot of victories we've all had and we do receive so much support from so many walks of life. >> matthew haines, nick, the co-owners of club q. we appreciate you being here tonight. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> we have a lot to get to tonight. stay with us. stay with us

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for thanksgiving by chance? i have a thing to pass the time if you have a long drive or a flight to take. it's free. you don't have to sign up for anything to get it. there is an app on your phone even if you have never used it before. it's probably there. it's probably called podcasts or something like that. find that app. ask somebody else to find it for

you if you don't know how. use the search function on that app. type in my name, maddow, and the word ultra, and there it is for free. you can listen to all eight episodes of my podcast, ultra. the final one posted today. we've been posting one per week since ultra launched which has been driving people crazy. if you've been waiting to listen to them all at once and you didn't want the week's delay between episodes, you can binge them. you can listen to them in one fell swoop. i feel like i just gave birds to an elephant. we've been working on it for a year. it has taken over my life. i am so happy to have it out there in the world. just search maddow and the word ultra in the podcast app that you never noticed was already there on your phone or you can listen for free off the website which is msnbc.com/ultra.

so we know now that republicans are going to get control of the house next year barely. and because it is barely, because their majority is so small, that means any small group of republican members of congress, even sometimes a single member of congress will have the opportunity to monkey wrench things for the republican leadership. over the past few days, we have just learned that one of the things republican leader kevin mccarthy had to promise to do in order to get one particular republican to vote for him to be speaker was that he had to promise her that once he becomes speaker, he will launch congressional investigations of the u.s. justice department over their prosecutions of people who participated in the attack on the capitol last january 6th. so the republicans now say they will launch congressional investigations of the justice department for prosecuting the people who attacked the capitol. that is a promise kevin mccarthy will to motorcycle to marjorie taylor greene who has repeatedly

defended and minimized the january 6th attack and praised the people who carried it out. and that seems crazy, i know. but it is not unprecedented. it absolutely has happened before. in the early 1940s, before the u.s. joined world war ii, the justice department brought a case against a whole bunch of americans for sedition. for allegedly trying to overthrow the u.s. government by force. and the special twist in that case was that the government alleged these folks were not only trying to overthrow the u.s. government by force. they were trying to do so as part of a conspiracy with the nazi government in germany. now one of the defendants in that case was a high-ranking nazi agent. he was convicted of being a paid agent of the nazi government in this country. he had been running an operation inside the u.s. congress working with multiple members of congress and u.s. senators to use congressional offices to distribute million of pieces of

nazi propaganda into american homes. lots of members of congress were implicated in that plot with that convicted nazi agent. lots of members were even being paid in various ways to take part in that plot. the agent they had been working with to do it was now part of this mass sedition indictment with the justice department. when that came together, implicated members of congress, some of them decided to lean on the justice department to try to kybos had $that investigation. basically to save themselves. in fact a senator named marjorie -- sim sorry, burton k wheeler, a senator from monday tan, a he threatened the justice department that unless they fired the prosecutor who led that investigation, he would launch congressional investigations over the whole justice department over their prosecutions of these seditionists. so that's pressure on the justice department to scare them

out of pursuing the the prosecutions. to make it seem like the prosecutions themselves were a scandal. which is exactly what the republicans are promising to do now with the january 6th investigations. back in the 1940s, when this happened then, senator burton wheeler was successful in his political pressure campaign when he threatened the attorney general that he would investigate the justice department if they didn't fire the prosecutor in this sedition case. attorney general francis biddle caved to those threats. the justice department fared that prosecutor. and then when another prosecutor took his case, and his investigation fell devastating further evidence, including in the nazi's own files, evidence that the sedition defendants were working with the nazis. evidence that senator wheeler himself was more up to his neck in that plot than anyone had previously known, well, senator wheeler turned on the jets again. this time he didn't go just to the attorney general.

he went to the top. to president harry truman. and he told president truman that he needed to fire the new prosecutor, too, just like the old prosecutor had been fired. and president harry truman caved to that demand from senator wheeler. he did it. he fired the second prosecutor. troop an also buried the results of the investigation. the justice department had reportedly planned the make public the finding of its investigation about the sedition defendants working with the hitler government and this nazi agent's work in congress and what the nazis' own files said. the justice department planned to do a public official report on those findings. harry truman instead ordered that investigation kept secret. he buried it. for 15 years it was buried. it's an amazing story. it's a story you might want to

listen to on your thanksgiving. now the sedition trial of the paramilitary attackers continues. the jury is getting that case tomorrow morning. as individual participants in the attack on the government are continuing to be convicted in federal court even today. as a second special counsel is appointed to investigate among other things the former president's alleged involvement in the january 6th effort to overthrow the government. one of the things to know about this type of american history, one of the reasons i did this podcast, ultra, is because the lesson here. it is an uncomfortable one. in the face of an anti-democratic movement, anti-small d movement, a fascist movement with support from powerful elected officials, even when they go so far as to try to overthrow the government by force. in that instance, the criminal law has never proved to work all that well against it. and that's both because we've got constitutional protections

under the first amendment that make it hard to convict people of sedition and seditious conspiracy. also because the justice department in these cases get subjected to intense political pressure and intervention, even intimidation from politically powerful elected officials who are themselves part of the plots against democracy. the lessons of history on this stuff are worrying. the justice department, turns out, isn't great at resisting intense political pressure and intimidation. even though they think they are. they're not. so question one is, can the fines be stiffened? can they be bolstered against the powerful forms of political pressure? and question two, for the rest of us. does history give us any advice about what else can be done? how else to protect our democracy? particularly if we are up

against the historical reality that the courts maybe can't save us. the justice department maybe can't save us. joining us now is historian bradley hart. if you have been listening to the podcast ultra, he is one of the historians you've been listening to. he is also the author of the excellent book, hitler's american friends. the third reich's supporters in the united states. it has been an indispensable source for us putting "ultraral" together. >> congratulations on the podcast. i've learned stuff from it. what is amazing is to hear these people's voices. you've talked about it before. but a voice that sticks with you. even hearing john rogge, the prosecutor, i've never heard his voice before. it's amazing. >> since the podcast has been out there, one of the recurring conversations i've had, is that people even in the news business have come to me sxmd where did

you find these actors? no, no. this is all archival tape. you can't believe this stuff is, i guess, also, you want it to be ancient history. you can't wreef there is time of them. the '40s is tape we can reach to. there were people alive when it happened. there aren't that many instances in history where we get people charged with sedition. so the points on the number line, there aren't that many to connect. i have to ask you. i don't want to assume because you just said those nice things, that you agree with every point of it. let me ask if you agree with that basic thesis. the justice department clearly has a role but they shouldn't be seen as the silver bullet. there have been real weaknesses in the way they've approached it in the past. >> there's one thing. you point this out, a lot of activity we're talking about, up until the point where people are committing sedition or other

crimes is constitutionally protected. first amendment, second amendment, a lot of the groups we're talking about are saying really nasty things about people. that's terrible. most people agree with it but it is not a claim. even some of the more militarized groups when they're training with weapons, it is still protected second amendment activity. so i think the important point here is that the law has a role certainly but there's a wider civil society role in sort of policing the spectrum of extremism, the spectrum. our politics. >> in terms of that civil society role. one of the things that i was really heartened by and for anyone partially listened to the podcast and hasn't gotten to the end. there are ways in which it has a bad ending. but one of the surprise good endings is that there are all these members of congress who are really powerful, powerful enough to go to the attorney general and get a prosecutor fired. to go to the president and get another prosecutor fired. to get a justice department report bur that i had was otherwise going to be public. members with a ton of sway,

nevertheless when their activities come to light, the voters throw them out. and it's surprising given how powerful some of them were. >> that's right. and you see these names are household names. senator wheeler whom you alluded to. one of the leading lights in the democratic party being bandied about as a potential presidential contender. this is a man who obtained semilegendary status. what is interesting, if he had died in the late 1930s, might well be a convenient rated figure. but he loses a seat in 1946. his reputation is tanked. >> given the challenge that's we've got, the sedition trial, pending charges against the president for his role in this. you get somebody like john rogge, the prosecutor who

preceded him. bringing them in court themselves don't end in convictions even though they implicate these members of coming. they never find themselves in the dock, let alone in jail. but you do get them voted out. it is a civil society form of accountability that is driven essentially by journalism, people coming to know what they did, and judging them for it, even though they're not locked up? >> ultimately, this is about the voters. there is a ton of journalism on this. there are hard-hitting ads when they're up for re-election during the war. but this is about the voters. and i think when i was doing this initially, my first reaction is why isn't the story better now? i think when i got to the end of it and realized there was a form of almost justice in this way against these individuals who engaged in pretty bad behavior in the 1930s and 940s, that was heartening. the voters did punish all the

figures included in this. >> not all of them. virtually all of them. one of the things that maybe there will be an ultra season two someday. i don't know. and i know your research on this era continues. one of the things that happens to the sedition defendants who kind of melt back into the sauce of american society, some of them end up providing some of the core really radical basis for the pro fascist, pro nazi, in many cases, holocaust denying part of what becomes go the far right of politics. the members of congress get voted out and become obscure figures and die in obscurity. but some of these defendants end up becoming part of stuff that is really scary in terms of what comes next on the far, far right. >> like jlk smith. a very anti-semitic inheritor of the huey long machine in

louisiana. and will this rabble rousing style of speaking. elizabeth dillon is active until the 1960s when she dies of a red baiting conspiracy theorist. absolutely. many of the leading lights of this movement politically, specially america first committee. they pay a pretty steep price. the rank and file, that's one question in society. i don't have an answer for this yet. what happens to everybody else? we're talking hundreds of thousands of people involved in these things. >> yeah. america first had a million members. >> and the most popular radio host of all time. 30 million listeners a week. >> yeah. well, you'll know it before i do and hopefully i'll be right there on your heels. bradley hart, i really appreciate all that you did to

help us tell this story. your work on this as an historian, the book is called hitler's american friends. the third reich supporters in the united states. sir, thank you. more ahead tonight. stay with us. mo ahead tonight stay with us cer: type 2 diabetes? discover the power of 3 in the ozempic® tri-zone. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. announcer: ozempic® provides powerful a1c reduction. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. and you may lose weight. adults lost up to 14 pounds. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2,

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a fallow period for the news but not this year. there's a ton of news going on right now and apparently more is on its way. the criminal trial against the business of former president trump is heading toward its conclusion. the prosecution, somewhat surprisingly, rested its case today in new york which means the defense will get its turn. but even as new york state prosecutors wrap up that criminal prosecution of trump's family business, "the new york times" reports today that the same new york prosecutor's office, the same new york d.a. that brought those charges against trump's business is apparently now considering bringing new criminal charges against the former president himself. the new york d.a.'s office is reportedly looking at potential criminal charges in conjunction with the hush money to the porn star case. from ages ago. from 2016. you will remember this. these were the campaign finance felonies for which trump's former lawyer michael cohen already went to federal prison. he admitted to the felonies in

court. he stated under oath in court that he committed those felonies on behalf of and at the instruction of former president trump. given how clear he was about that in court, frankly, no one has ever given a satisfactory explanation as to why the federal prosecutor's office that charged michael cohen with those crime never charged anybody else. why theyinexplicably never charged trump or the people who signed the bogus checks. more than that, the federal prosecutor's office in new york, not only did they not charge trump himself for those felonies, they apparently leaned on the new york state prosecutors that they shouldn't bring state charges in that matter either. now, new york state prosecutors are reportedly thinking that maybe they will bring those charges after all against trump. again, this is a crime from 2016 for which one person, michael cohen, has already served a

federal prison term. if new york prosecutors do pursue trump for it now, that would mean that as trump is now running for president again, his potential criminal legal exposure will extend to potential criminal charges in the state of georgia, and potential federal criminal charges both for the classified documents case at mar-a-lago and for his alleged incitement of the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol, and now potential criminal charges in the state of new york. campaign finance felonies related to his 2016 campaign. i will mention that the recent allegations of trump asking for irs audits of his political enemies, that's another area for potential criminal investigation. that's clearly a crime and there is clear evidence in the trump record that trump both asked for and got those irs audits against

those whom he had a grudge. the two definitely existing criminal investigations of trump that we know already. the classified documents one. the january 6th one. those have been handed off to the jack smith on friday. this of course makes trump the first president in history to be subject to not one but two impeachments and not one but two special counsel investigations. the previous special counsel investigation of trump was of course the mueller one into russia's efforts to interfere in the 2016 election to try to get trump into the white house. you will recall that investigation was effectively knee capped by political intervention. trump's hand picked attorney general william barr was installed in office roughly a month before mueller turned in his report. barr then submarined the report, released a false summary of the findings, proclaimed trump exonerated and then attacked both the investigation and its

findings. this wasn't the first time a justice department investigation has faced political interference and sabotage from the parties and their allies. that's what my podcast ultra is all about. this happened to the justice department before. but now, we do have the lessons to learn from, right? we have the lesson from the 1940s that i did this big project about. we also have the lesson of the mueller investigation. so now as this second trump special counsel starts on his work, can this one benefit from lessons learned about how to resist that kind of interference and political pressure and intimidation that we know is coming and that has undone high profile political investigations of this kind in the past? what can the special counsel do right this time to avoid getting knee capped like the investigators who have gone

before him? one man who is a key senior member of the previous effort joins us next. stay with us.

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among my patients, i often see them have teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. now that a new special counsel has been appointed to oversee ongoing criminal investigations into former president and current congressional candidate donald trump, are there lessons learned from past special counsel investigations that could guide the new special counsel's work? like for example, how to deal

with political pressure and political interference and gamesmanship? likely to come this way. joining us now, andrew wiceman, long time prosecutor, robert mueller's special investigation. thank you for being here. >> great to be here. >> i'm glad you intersected with bradley hart on your way in. >> i am, too. >> i feel like i've been making a proxy style investigation. your line of work. in terms the justice department contending with national security threats of this kind, people who seek to undo our system of government. people who are in powerful political positions when they seek to do it. and i feel like a version of the pit falls that i've seen in historical investigations of that kind happened in the mueller investigation as well, essentially a political appointee of that president interfering to submarine your

work and make sure that it disappeared from the public view. do you think that's fair? >> yeah. i think the analogy is, i mean, palpable. you have people from outside the nation seeking to interfere and you had people inside the nation doing the same thing in the white house and actually at the justice department. that is something jack smith is not going to really have to contend with. it is really important to see there is a huge difference between his situation and the mueller situation. because you don't have this sitting president using pardons to try to get people to not cooperate and threatening and dangling pardons and you don't have the constant threat of being fired. from every single day we were sitting, wondering whether we would be there at the end of the day. i remember meeting with rob mueller where he sort of announced saying you've done a great job and we all knew that was the last day. and then lo and behold, we were

there the next day. so he doesn't have to deal with that as well. he's no longer a sitting president. a former president. and then you don't have to white house and at times the justice department on the opposite side trying to actively curtailing and thwart what you're doing. here you have the white house saying they'll be completely hands off. and you don't have bill barr in the justice department working to undermine what they're doing. so he has -- >> but you do have a congress now, a republican-controlled congress where they're explicitly saying we want to investigate the justice department for even prosecuting january 6th attackers, let alone about bringing any investigations of trump. what is the -- what is the difference in how it feels to be getting that kind of pressure from capitol hill versus the justice department and inside the white house? >> i think you're seeing it, actually. i think you're seeing signs that merrick garland is figuring out

how to deal with this. i'll allude to history in a moment. merrick garland when there was this huge brouhaha after the search in mar-a-lago did have a public press conference, and when he said, you know, we only speak through our filings, not quite. he actually then spoke. and he made it clear, i made the decision. i, the attorney general, made the decision to do this. not anyone else. he made it clear that there was no planting of evidence. he vouched for the agents and prosecutors on the case. he made it clear that it would be routine to try other steps before that. meaning this wasn't the only thing we did. we didn't go from zero to 60. this was a long-term effort. and i think the less, to directly answer your question, i think it is useful to look back to archibald cox. and there you don't have to have

a press conference denigrate someone. you don't have to do what jim comey did. it is the symbol of what not to do. you don't have to do that. you can still do what archibald cox did. he was in a situation where he was being vilified by nixon and his allies for not allowing a compromise and not seeking transcripts of the nixon tapes. he wanted the tapes themselves. he gave a long press conference where the public could see him and evaluate him and judge him, the man, instead of just reading a brief. >> so he was defending that decision and why it was a priority to him. >> exactly. it was long and in very plain language. and as the medium, he did it on

television. wasn't just a written brief. if you're trying to counter act the forces of congress, the forces in donald trump and his allies in already spinning what is happening with jack smith and the justice department, it is useful to take your opportunities where appropriate to explain what you're doing. to have more of an educational communicative function as the special counsel. >> so robert mueller and the investigation you were part of never spoke until he spoke before congress in his retort. you think that special counsel jack smith should speak to the public about key moments in the investigation regularly? daily press conferences? weekly? >> i don't think i would say daily or weekly. if you look at archibald cox, that was a key moment where it was really important to explain to the american public. here's an example of something

really useful. if there are charges that are brought, let's say the mar-a-lago case. i think there will be. i think it would be really useful to do something that we actually did at nyu. we put together a list of all the compromise doj cases. and it would be really useful for jk smith to explain why he is treating donald trump identically to other people. and there would be nothing wrong, and nothing that would violate the policies there. you're not taking this jim cop model. you're not just den grating somebody. >> not trying the case in public. you're explaining why charges are being brought. >> exactly. and i think this is a golden opportunity given that you have so much public interest and it would be so important for the public to understand what's going on and then they can evaluate it. >> a man who knows of what he speaks. we'll be right back. speaks we'll be right back. just stop. go for a run. go for 10 runs!

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