has been about. they embody what this type of bars. it's what a community bars. and what community really is. >> our hearts go out to this community. they try to come to grips to this horrific tragedy. and has one survivor, joshua thurman, told msnbc earlier today. this community will be back stronger and better. it'll be more powerful than ever before. it's inspiring. it requires a deep breath. and then that, no i wish you all a very good and very safe night. from all of our colleagues across the network of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with us. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. of tomorrow >> it's good to have you here this hour. the first 9-1-1 call came just

a few minutes before midnight. it was 11:56 pm. saturday night. technically that means it was four minutes before the start of the transgender day of remembrance. which is a day that honors the memory of americans who have been killed, simply for being transgender. a shooter in body armor, reportedly carrying a long gun is semi automatic rifle as well as a handgun had entered into a nightclub called club q. he had started shooting people. and within minutes, five people were dead, another 18 people were injured. tonight local sorties announce the names of the victims. this is daniel austin, he was a 28-year-old transgender man. here's a bartender club q. his mother helped the place it in the five spotify his tattoo. it was a harpist by an arrow on

his left arm wrapped in a ribbon that says mom. this is derrick, rumpus another bartender at the club. his 38 years old. his friends told reporters he was known for blasting britney spears songs they could hear from the parking lot. 40-year-old transgender woman, visiting club q she was in colorado springs on a weekend visit from denver. this is actually, paul she was 35 years old. a mother and a wife. she had stopped by the club that night to see a comedy show this was raymond greene vance just 22 years old. the club that night with high school sweetheart. this family was there to seem them perform rejection last night. all those lives lost and a handful of minutes. and at least another 13 victims remain hospitalized tonight. colorado officials say the

suspected shooter is being held on suspicion of five counts of murder that fischel counts of having a crime causing injury. formal charges will be fouled after appears in. court as of, now he still hasn't. as of now he still hospitalized. now, how did he end up hospitalized himself it's an incredible story and i mentioned that raymond greene vance, who is at the club that night with his high school sweetheart and her family. , while his friends dad was there. his name is richard hero. he is a retired u.s. army officer. he retired as a major after 15 years in the army. three tours in iraq, one in afghanistan. he is a decorated officer, two bronze stars in combat. mr. fierro was at the club q on saturday night with his wife and with his family, supporting his daughter's friend who was part of the drag performance that night. when the shooting started, richard fierro told the new york times that he hit the floor right away, he pulled a friend down with him.

he says he then saw the gunman moving toward a door that lead from the inside of the club to a patio area. and he knew that dozens of people had fled out of the bar onto that patio to get away from the shooter. when he saw the shooter heading towards that patio, mr. fierro chased him down. he raced across the bar room. the gunman was reportedly wearing body armor, or shapiro says he grabbed the gunman by the handle on the back of the guy's body armor, and pulled him to the floor and then jump on top of him. i want to stop to point out for a second that the suspected gunman is reportedly well over six feet tall and he weighed something on the order of hundred pounds. mr. fierro says he is about 200 pounds and he said this guy is bigger. and that apparently not the man's long gun, that ar-15 style rifle just out of the man 's reach. mr. fierro said that he then saw that in addition to that ar-15, the guy had a hand gun as well. he grabbed the handgun away from the gunman. and started hitting him with it.

now, since the man was wearing body armor, mr. fierro says that he was trying to hit the man where he could see and feel that the man wasn't protected by the body armor. he hit him where he could find skin. he was hitting the man with his own gun. canada putting him in the head over and over again. mr. fresh yield farther club patrons to help him. one man was able to grab the rifle, they are 15 and moved away from the gunman. to safety he said that one of dry performers came out and stomp on the gunmen with her heels. the ferraro said that he kept hitting the shooter in the head. he remained unpopular guy until

the police arrived. he himself was covered in blood by that point. the police ended up tackling him, tackling riviera. they put him in a police car apparently. not knowing that least in the first instance that he was the hero of the moment. he was not another suspect. here's richard fierro speaking with reporters outside of his house and colorado just a short time ago. >> i try to save people on it didn't work for five. there are five people are home right now. and i think god, it's thanksgiving. i went through this in a thanksgiving and iraq man. we lost dudes. i don't know what else to do. i really hope people kind of use this, shake someone's hand. give someone a hug, give someone a kiss. these are good people, man these rockets kids. they gauge oshawa those dancing with my daughter, my wife and

joanne. he got my daughter and they went head. he saved my daughter's life, man. it could nascar nothing more. >> richard farrow talking with reporters just a few minutes ago this evening. that means that you just mentioned, joshua, i should tell you -- first of, all i should tell you that official said tonight that a second individual other than richard fierro manning thomas james would also credited by officials tonight with helping subdue the subset affected gutman and in terms of police they arrive quickly. they arrive six minutes after the initial 9-1-1 call. that initial 9-1-1 call came in for before midnight. the police arrived two minutes after midnight. they were there very fast. but even so, by the time of the police arrive the shooting it stopped. these patients themselves, they're the ones who had taken the suspect down.

they beat him senseless with his own weapon. tonight, officials are investigating this attack is a potential hate crime. they have been confirmed a motive for the suspect at this point. but you heard that mr. farrell mentioned my name joshua. he said he was dancing with some of his family members. he grabbed his daughter and pulled her to safety. here is the man who we believe mr. fair was referencing there. his name is joshua thurman. he is one of the patrons. he was on saturday night. here is him describing part of his experience that night. >> who, i crawled out when my stomach and saw the police. they didn't even know we were in. there and once they found, us we were escorted out. and when we were squirted out, bodies on the ground, blood, shattered glass. people were dead. it was sad.

it was scary. yeah, it is a shock. this is only lgbtq+ space that we have in the city of colorado springs. we just had the remembrance post earlier this year. you know, it's a big shock. our safe spaces no longer are safe space. compared to enjoy yourself. we get away. it's like everybody else, we get away from the bs. just for a couple of hours. how can we do that now? >> how can we do that now. joining us now are matthew haynes and makers that, they are the co-owners of club q this mass shooting happened. mr. haines in mr., thanks for being with us tonight. i'm sorry for what you've been through. >> thank you. >> when we just ask you first.

i've tried to summarize the basics of what we know and what we've been told by officials. is there anything that i've gone wrong that you like to add that the country should know tonight about what happened with the response was like this horrible incident got underway? >> i think people need to remember most is the innocent victims. 18 people that were injured, people that had trauma injuries. that's what i think is the biggest part tonight. >> that is what we see behind us, we had tremendous support. i've had tremendous support police department. we've had tremendous support from the marinol estate officials. we couldn't ask for more

support. the reaction that night was outstanding. so many police officers, made a very good history over the years. and it really just. >> to their employees, daniel. could you tell us a little bit about them? >> they were wonderful. they were more than employees, they were family. they were the heart of what club q is. most of our customers would've had experienced. they both were incredibly passionate. they worked amazingly well together. they were great friends. these are our true family members. so many people behind us, so

many lives but they've changed. i can't remember justice. if you look at our facebook page, you look at everyone and all the experiences people have had. it doesn't amazing story. it's the last 20 years at club q has been about. not just club q, but they embody what this type of bars, with a community bars. and what community really is. they were amazing. >> i wanted to see a lot about what we are learning as a country, we learn from the story about club q. we need to learn more about what happened on saturday night. one of the things people really struck by, is also some people were. there definitely gay people, their core people, their transgender people there. also straight people there the families. people in multigenerational groups enjoying the show.

i just felt like the most. diverse imaginable group of people there. people who have come out in support of what have happened there tonight. i wonder if you could speak to that a little bit. especially given how much political hate has been directed at the queer community and regularly the trans community over these past couple of years from the political right. >> that is what club q is, that is what i clear space is. it is a space that is for all of these people to gather together without hate. without prejudice to feel safe. that is every night at club q, it is every night or every queer bar across the world. that is the devastating, think that this community has now lost their space. but the community that they built inside that space can't be taken away. >> we talk about hate, but for all of the hate, there is still

so much love. and that is what we have had in this bar. and that is what the saturday night was a representation of what every night is there. it is full of a community of people, i think community, i don't mean just gay people. it is all of the allies. it is all of the people. all of the support that we have. this is 2022,, after all. we have come a long way then where we started 20 years ago building this business. so there is a lot of victories that we have all had. and we do receive so much support from so many walks of life. >> matthew haynes, nick resaca, the co-of club q of colorado springs. thank you for being with us, i know it is a incredibly difficult time, we appreciate you being here tonight, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> a lot to get to here tonight, stay with us.

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thanksgiving this -- any chance? if you have a long drive or a flight to change -- there's an app on your phone, even if you have never used it before, it is probably there. it is probably called podcasts or something like that. find that app, ask somebody else to find it for you if you don't know how. just use the search function on that app, type in my name maddow and the world ultra. and there it is. for free. you can listen to all eight episodes of my new podcast

ultra. the final episode just posted online today. we have been posting one upside per week since ultra launched. which i know has been driving people crazy. but now a few -- weeks delay -- all lead the episode they're out now. you can bench them. you can listen to them all in one foul swoop. i feel like i just gave birth to an elephant that we had been working on for basically a full year. it has totally taken over my life. i am so happy and so relieved to have it out there in the world so everyone can hear. it again, just search maddow and the word ultra in the podcast app that you never noticed was already there on your phone. or you can just listen for free off the website which is msnbc. com slash ultra. so we know now that republicans are gonna get control of the house next year, early. and because it is barely, because their majority is so small, that means that any

small group of republicans, even sometimes a single member of congress, we'll have the opportunity to monkey wrench things for the republican leadership. over the past couple of days, we have just learned that -- -- -- he actually threatened the congressional escalations department over their prosecutions of people who participated in the attack on the capitol last january six. so, the republicans now say they will watch congressional investigations of the justice department for prosecuting the people who talk to the capitol. kevin mccarthy had to make a promise to marjorie taylor greene. of course, who has repeatedly defended minimized january 6th attack. and place we're that carried it

out. and that seems crazy, i know. but it is not unprecedented. it absolutely has happened before. and early 1940s before the u.s. during world war ii, justice department batter case against a whole bunch of americans for sedition relatively trying to overthrow the u.s. government by force. the special twist in that case was a did not get over folder government by force, but they did as part of a conspiracy redundancy government in germany. now, one of the defendants in that case was a high-ranking nancy agent. he was convicted of being a paid agent of the naughty government in this country. he had been running in operation in said the u.s. congress. we're going with multiple members of congress in the u.s. senators to usually crucial officers treated millions or not to propaganda in the american homes. lots of members of congress were implicated in that plot with that convicted not see

agent. lots of members of congress were being paid in various ways to take part in the. in the agent day even working with was not part of this massive indictment by the justice department. well, one that akeem together implicated members of congress, some decidedly non justice department to high bought that investigation. basically, to save themselves. in fact, a senator name burton k wheeler a democratic senator from montana actually threatened the justice department. that unless a pop through of -- he was gonna launch congressional restorations of the whole justice department over their prosecutions of these. alleged seditionist's. so that is political pressure on the justice department to scare them out of pursuing those prosecutions. to make it seem like those prosecutions themselves were a scandal. which is exactly what the republicans are promising to do

now with the january 6th investigations. back in the 1940s, when this happened, then senator burton wheeler was successful in his political pressure campaign, when he threatened the attorney general that he would investigate the justice department if they didn't fire the prosecutor in the sedition case. attorney general francis it'll caved to those threats. the justice department, in fact, fired that prosecutor. and then when another prosecutor took his place and his investigation found devastating further evidence. including in the nancy's own files. that the evidence that the sedition defendants were working with the not sees. evidence, also, that senator wheeler himself was more up to his neck in that plot than anybody had previously known. well, senator wheeler turned on the jets again. and this time he didn't go just to the attorney general he went to the top. he went to president harry truman. and he told president harry

truman that he needed to fire the new prosecutor to. just like the old prosecutor had been fired. and president harry truman caved to that demand from senator burton wheeler. he did it. he fired the second prosecutor in the sedition case. truman also buried the results of the investigation. the justice department had reportedly planned to make public the finding of its investigation about the sedition defendants working with the hitler government. and this naji agents work in congress. and what the knots own false just said about which americans they were working with him to do what. the justice department plant to do a public official report on those findings. harry truman ordered that investigation kept secret. he buried. for 15 years it was buried. is an amazing story. it is a story you might want to listen to on your thanksgiving travels. [laughs] but now as the sedition trial of january 6th, paramilitary

attackers continues. -- -- and the january 6th effort to overthrow the government. one of the things to know about this type of american history, one of the things i did for this podcast ultra was the lesson here, it isn't uncomfortable one. it is that in the face of an anti-democratic movement, and ice multi democratic movement. a fascist movement with support from powerful elected officials. even when they go so far as to overthrow the government by force. even in that instance, the criminal law has never proved to work all that well against it. and that is both because we have got constitutional protections under the first amendment, they make it hard to convict people of seditious conspiracy. it also is because the justice department in the court system,

in these cases, they end up getting subjected to intense political pressure and intervention, even intimidation for politically powerful elected officials who are themselves part of the spots against democracy. lessons of history on the staff are worrying. the justice department turns out isn't league resisting political pressure and intimidation. even though they think they are. they are not. so question one is, can their spines beast event? can they be bolstered in any way against those inevitable powerful forms of political pressure? and, question two for the rest of us. does history give us any advice about what else can be done? how else to fight to protect our democracy? particularly if we are up against this historical reality that the courts maybe can save us?

the justice department really can't save us. joining us now is the story and bradley heart. if you have been listening to the podcast, he is one of the historians that you've been listening to. he's also the author of the excellent book, killers americans friends. the third race supporters in the united states. which has just been an indispensable source for us in putting ultra together. bradley hart, thank you so much. >> thank you for being here, congratulations on the podcast, it is really a fantastic piece of work. i've enjoyed every episode. i have -- normal and the, and that is voice that this with. even hearing john rocky, the justice -- i've never divorce before. >> yeah, it is amazing. it's funny, when we have been podcasting out there. one of the recurring conversations i had is that people even involved like in the news business that come to me and said, when you find these actors? >> yeah. >> no, no, this is all archival tape. >> yeah. >> it really does, like you can't believe that this stuff

is, i guess, also, you kind of wanted to be ancient history so you can't believe that there is tape that. but it is not that ancient. i, mean the 40s is history that we can reach two. we all know people who are alive when this happened. and there just aren't that many instances in american history that we get people put on trial for sedition. so the number of points on the number line, they just aren't that many to connect. i have to ask you, and i don't want to assume that because you just said those nice things because you are in the podcast that you agree with every point of it. but let me ask if you agree with that basic thesis that the justice department clearly has a role, but they shouldn't be seeing themselves the silver bullet. there have been real weaknesses in the way they've approached these things in the past. >> that is absolutely right. one thing that i think you point out well in the podcast, you talk about the book as well. a lot of the activity that we are talking about up until the point where people are actually committing sedition or other crimes it's constitutionally protected. first amendment, second moment,

a lot of the -- saying really nasty things about people. that is terrible. most people agree with that. it is not a crime. even some of the more militarized people, they are treating with weapons and things like that. that is still protected under 72nd amendment in a lot of ways. so i think that the important point here is that the law has a role certainly. but there is a wider civil society role in sort of policing the spectrum of extremism and the spectrum of republican politics. >> in terms of that civil society role, one of the things -- a pat on f to go to the attorney general get prosecuted fire, to go to present another prosecutor filed. taylor justice filed. members of congress with a ton of swag, never listen activities around the stuff comes to light, they threw them out. it's sort of a surprising

burton k wheeler is a leading lights of the progressive most everyone. timely leading lights of the democratic party. a presidential contender with 1940 when result was running for a start. terms said, this is a man who has obtained december legendary status. if he adapt perhaps a late 1930s, it might be an venerated figure today american politics. but because of what happens it around, he loses the cnn can 40. 60 democratic priority that mutations tanked. how do you square that in terms of accountability? obviously, this is the point that loves arch for us not given the challenges that we got. the sedition trial now. pending potential charges against president in the role for this. you get somebody like john rocky. the prospect that preceded him. million more only bring in these cases in court. they don't end up resulting in convictions. even though they implicate these powerful members of

congress, certainly, those members of congress never find themselves in the docket. that loan in jail. but you do also get them voted out. it is a civil society that is driven by journalism, by activism, people come to know what they did, and judging them fourth. you can though they are not locked up. >> ultimately, this is about the voters. there is a ton of journalism that not. this there is incredibly hard hitting ads that are running against these candidates when they are for election at various points during the war. that ultimately, this is about the voters. i think when i was doing this research, initially. my first reaction was wise and store better known? i think at the same recognized on the podcast. i think when we got to the end of it, sort of realize that there was 20 a floor of almost justice against these individuals are gauging pretty bad behavior in the 40s. the voters did ultimately punish virtually all the figures are included in this. >> not all of them. virtually all of them. one of the things that made the

way not to season to someday. i know that your research on this area continues. but one of the things that happens to the sedition dependence that aren't convicted and kind of melt back into the saucepan market society is that some of them, at least, and of providing some of the core radical basis for a very far rights -- pro, fascist pro nancy, in many case holocaust and i think part of what comes the next era far-right american politics. they members have -- and become obscure figures who died obscurity. some of these defendants and up becoming part of stuff that is really scary in terms of what comes next for the american far far right. >> some esophagus become associate okay smith, when we mention today's episode. very at his semitic inheritor of the harry long machine of louisiana and that represents how speaking. he belongs a vigorous alliance in 60s or 70s and politics.

some of these figures are closely associated with his -- elizabeth and his forget that he talked about. she's active into the late 1960s. which he does sort of a red baiting conspiracy theorists. so, absolutely the leading lights of this movement politically, especially the america first committee. they pay a pretty political price. that is mostly over by the 1960s. the rank and file, sort of will back into society. there's one question i was asked myself. i don't have to re-answered for a. it is what happens everybody else? we're talking 100,000 people who are involved in these things. >> the america first committee had 1 million. members >> of the caucus, the most popular rated host of all-time. 30 billion dollars a week. by some estimates. what happens those people? . >> you will know what before i do. and hopefully i'll be right there on your heels. bradley hart, really appreciate all that you did to help us tell this story. your work on the, as a historian, absolutely, totally, and valuable.

again. what brought the hearts book is called, hitler's american friends. the third wreck supporters in the united states. sir, thank you. >> all right, more ahead here tonight, stay with us. tonight, stay with us. two hundred and fifty million dollars to charity. in fact, subaru is the largest corporate donor to the aspca... ...and the national park foundation. and the largest automotive donor to meals on wheels... ...and make-a-wish. get a new subaru during the share the love event and subaru and our retailers will donate three hundred dollars to charity. ♪ ♪ woah, surprised to see you here. how's your head? all good man. [vacuum cleaner] advil targets pain at the source. when pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liquid gels. >> usually the lead up to

thanksgiving is a little bit of a fallow period for the news. but not this year. there is that kind of news going on right now, and apparently more is on its way. the criminal trial against the business of former president donald trump is heading towards its conclusion. the prosecution, somewhat

surprisingly, rested its case today in new york. which means the defense will now get its turn. but even as new york state prosecutors wrapped up that criminal prosecution of trump's family business, new york times reports today that the same new york prosecutors office, the same new york da that brought those charges against trump's business is apparently now considering bringing new criminal charges against the former president himself. the new york's office has reportedly looking at potential criminal charges in conjunction with the hush money to the porn star case from ages ago. from 2016. you will remember. this he's will be campaign finance policies for which trump's former lawyer michael cohen already went to federal prison. mr. cohen admitted to those felonies in court. he stated under oath in court that he committed those felonies on behalf of and at the instruction of former president trump. given how clear he was about that in court, frankly, no one has ever given any satisfactory explanation as to why the federal prosecutors office that charged michael cohen with those crimes never charged

anybody else. why the inexplicably never charged trump himself or anybody else who participated in those felonies at the trump organization. including the people who signed the bogus checks. even more than that. the u.s. attorney's office, the federal prosecutors office in new york, not only did they not charge trump himself for those felonies, they apparently leaned on the new york state prosecutors that they shouldn't bring state charges in that matter either. now, new york state prosecutors are reportedly thinking that they will bring charges after all against trump. >> again, this is a crime from 2016 for which one person, michael cohen, has already served a federal prison instant term. if new york prosecutors do pursue trump for it now, that would mean that as trump is now running for president again, his potential criminal legal exposure will extend to compel charges in the state of georgia and potential criminal federal

charges fourth for the -- mar-a-lago case and for his alleged incitement of the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. and for now potential criminal charges in the state of new york campaign finance fallacies related to his 2016 campaign. i will also mention that the recent revelations about trump asking for irs audits of his political enemies? that is another area, potentially, for further criminal federal investigation. because that very clearly is a federal crime and there is now clear evidence in the public record that trump both asked for and got those irs audits for people like james comey and andrew mccabe. fbi officials against whom trump had acreage. but the two definitely existing in federal -- that we know about, already the federal -- the general 61. those have now been handed off to social counsel prosecutor jack smith who was appointed special counsel at the justice department on friday. this, of course, makes trump the first president in the history to be subject to not one but two impeachments and

not one but two special counsel investigations. the previous special counsel investigation of trump was, of course, the mueller one. precious efforts to interfere in the 2016 election and try to get trump into the white house. you will recall that that investigation was effectively knee capped by political intervention. trump's handpicked attorney general william barr was installed in office, roughly a month before mueller turned in his report. barr then -- released a false summary of more mueller's findings, proclaimed trump exonerated and then attacked both the investigation and its findings. this wasn't the first time a justice department investigation has faced political interference and sabotage from the implicated price and their allies. that is what my podcast alter is all about. the rich american history of this happening to the justice department before.

but now, we do have this lessons to learn from, right? we have that lesson from the 1940s that i just did this big project about. but we also have that lesson of the mueller investigation. so now as this second of trump special counsel starts on his work, can this one benefit from lessons learned about how to resist that kind of interference and political pressure and intimidation that we know is coming? and that has undone high-profile political investigations of this kind in the past? what can the special counsel do right now to avoid getting kneecaps like the investigators who have gone before him? one man who is a key singer member of the previous efforts joins us next, stay with us.

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has been appointed to oversee ongoing criminal investigations into former president and current congressional candidate donald trump, are there lessons learned from past special counsel investigations? that could guide the news special counsel's work?

like, for example, how to deal with political pressure and political interference and gamesmanship, likely to come his way. joining us now, andrew weissmann, longtime justice department veteran, formerly prosecutor in robert mueller's special counsel investigation. mr. weissmann, thank you for being here. >> great to be here. >> i'm glad you intersected with bradley hart on your way. >> i am too. >> i feel i have been making like a proxy style investigation in your line of work. in terms of the justice department contending with national security threats of this kind, people who seek to undo our system of government, people who are in powerful political positions when they seek to do it, and i feel like the version of the pitfalls i've seen in historical investigations of that kind happened in the mueller investigation as well, essentially a political appointee of that president interfering to submarine your work and make sure it disappeared from the public view. do you think that's fair? >> i think the analogy is, i mean, palpable, because you

have people from outside the nation seeking to interfere, and you had people inside the notion doing the same thing in the white house, and actually at the justice department. that is something jack smith is not going to really have to contend with. it's really important to see there is a huge difference between his situation and the mueller situation, because you don't have the sitting president using pardoning's to try to get people to not cooperate, and threatening and dangling pardons. you don't have the constant threat of being fired. every single day, we were sitting, wondering whether we were going to be there at the end of the day. i still remember meeting with robert mueller he announced saying you've done a great job, but we all sort of knew that was a last day, and lo and behold, we were there the next day. he doesn't have to deal with that as well because he is no

longer a sitting president, he's just a former president. you also don't have the white house, the justice department at times, on the opposite side, trying to actively curtail and thwart what you're doing, because you have the white house saying they're going to be completely hands off, and you don't have bill barr in the justice department working to undermine what you're doing. he has -- >> but you do have a congress now, a republican controlled congress, where they're saying we want to investigate the justice department for even prosecuting january 6th attackers, let alone for bringing about any investigations of trump. what is the difference, what's the difference on how it feels to be getting that kind of pressure from capitol hill versus pressure from inside the justice department and the white house? >> i think you're seeing it,

actually, and you are seeing signs merrick garland is figuring out a way to deal with this. i'm going to allude to history in a moment. having just listened to you, which is merrick garland, when there was this huge her after this search at mar-a-lago did have a public press conference, he said we only speak through our filings, not quite, he actually than spoke, and he made it clear i made the decision, i'm the attorney general made the decision to do that, is not anyone else. he made it clear there was no planting of evidence, he vouched for the prosecutors on the case. he made it clear it would be routine to try other steps before we actually do a search warrant, meaning this wasn't the only thing we did. we didn't go from zero to 60, this was a long term effort. i think the lesson to directly answer your question is i think it's useful to look back to archibald cox. he -- exactly. you don't have to have a press conference to denigrate somebody who is not charged. you don't have to do what jim coney did with hillary clinton, which is, i think, almost all prosecutors will view that as the symbol of a what not to do. we don't have to do that. you can still do what archibald cox did.

he was in a situation where he was being vilified by nixon, and his allies, for not accepting a compromise, and not seeking, sort of, transcripts of the nixon tapes, but he actually wanted the tapes themselves. he gave a long press conference where the public could see him and evaluate him, and judge him, the man, instead of reading a brief, which -- >> he was defending that decision and explaining why that was a priority for him. >> exactly. it was a long, very detailed decision, but in very plain language, and also a bit of the medium is the message. he did it on television. it wasn't just a written brief,

you know. if you're trying to counteract the forces of congress, the forces in donald trump and his allies, already spending what is happening with jack smith and the justice department, it's really useful to take your opportunities for appropriate to explain what you're doing, and you have more of an educational, communicative function as the special counsel. >> so, robert mueller and the investigation you were a part of never spoke until he spoke before congress in defending his retort. you think that special counsel jack smith should speak to the public about key moments in the investigation, regularly, daily press conferences, weekly press conferences? what do you think -- >> see, i don't think daily or weekly. if you look at archibald cox, that was a key moment where it was really important to explain to the american public. here's an example of something i think would be really useful.

if there are charges that are brought, let's say the mar-a-lago case, i think there will be. i think it would be really useful to do something we actually did at nyu, which is we put together a list of all the comparable doj cases, and it would be useful for jack smith to explain why he is treating donald trump identically to other people. there would be nothing wrong and nothing that would violate the department of justice policies there. you are not, again taking the jim comey model. you are not just denigrating somebody who is -- >> not trying the case in public. >> exactly. >> or explain what charges are -- --

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