them in russia making them, they'll have more of them. >> most of the iranian drones have been shot down. upwards of 80%. an alert out today saying russia all but exhausted its supply of these iranian drones and seeking resupplies manufactured in iran or perhaps elsewhere. "the washington post" reported iran will help russia restock its ballistic missiles. one of the things the united states is pretty good at is understanding the middle east's military capabilities, particularly iran, which has been the regional strategic threat. in terms of technology that goes into these things, in terms of a ways to bolster air defenses the united states can play critical role in this. >> we'll watch that and appreciate you being with us.

thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. have a wonderful thanksgiving. "morning joe" starts now. welcome to "morning joe," it is wednesday november 23rd. this morning covering overnight breaking news from virginia where another deadly mass shooting has taken place overnight. this time at a walmart. we'll go live to the scene in a moment. this on the heels of the colorado shooter, out of jail and appearing virtually this morning for a court hearing. also new developments on donald trump's legal woes. the supreme court delivering a victory to house democrats in the long-returning battle over the former president's tax returns, and signs the justice department could be on the verge winning a legal fight over appointment of a special master in mar-a-lago documents case. reporter for "the guardian" is

with us. we'll speak to him and host of "way too early," author of best-seller "the big life" jonathan lemire and reverend al sharpton. washington bureau chief for "usa today" susan page and presidential historian jon meacham. good morning to you all. get to politics in a bit. first another mass shooting. shots rang out in the city of chesapeake, virginia, just outside of norfolk. police confirming within the last two hours six people are dead, plus the gunman. it is unclear if he took his own life or was killed by responding officers. police say victims are being treated at multiple hospitals. a spokesman for the area's top trauma center told reporters five patients were being treated there. the fbi was on the scene last night and the atf out of washington tweeted, just after

midnight that its agents also are assisting in that investigation. joining us now live from chesapeake nbc's julia jester. julia, what more do we know? >> reporter: good morning, willie. chesapeake police confirm that six people have been killed, and the suspect is also deceased here at this walmart in chesapeake. we are awaiting an 8:00 a.m. news conference from authorities to hopefully get more details as to what happened. whether this is a targeted attack. whether suspects were employees or customers? hopefully we can get those details soon, but the mayor of chesapeake is coming out this morning with a heartfelt statement about his heart-broken community saying he's devastated by these senseless acts of violence and "chesapeake is a tight-knit community and we are

all shaken by this news." as mentioned, this is not the first shooting seen this week. we have no idea how many victims have been injured. you mentioned those five, there could likely be more. even just last week, a few hours away in charlottesville, university of virginia, still reeling from a shooting there. so this state, this community, will have a little bit of a more somber thanksgiving, willie. >> without saying. nbc's julia jester in chesapeake, virginia. we'll stay on top of this story, just getting development fls on it and also reporting from colorado springs with news on that investigation of the shooting last weekend. turning to politics. the supreme court cleared the way for house democrats to finally access donald trump's tax returns. the former president fought for years to shield those records from the house ways and means committee. the decision in a brief one-page order noting no dissenting

votes. the house ways and means committee seeking those documents since 2019 can now attempt to access the materials before republicans take over the house in january. committee chairman richard neal celebrating the decision why the top republican on the panel kevin brady ay accused the supreme court of opening a dangerous new political battleground where no citizen is safe. joe, a long time coming. as i said, years and years and years. >> yep. >> of people trying to get donald trump's tax returns through this president's campaigns, and now with, what? two months or less of democrats in power in the house, they're going to finally get their hands on them. >> well, they are, and we're going to be talking about quite a few other topics this morning regarding legal challenges. spurious challenges donald trump made to the united states supreme course and jon meacham, one after another after another of trump's spurious claims,

whether it's about his taxes, whether it's about, you know, his stolen election conspiracies, whether it's about privilege. whether it's about the special master, we're seeing time and again the united states supreme court in these issues, these issues involving madisonian checks and balances we see the court standing steadfast and drawing a straight line between themselves and the u.s. v. nixon case back in 1974. >> yeah. it's important to remember that the court did the right thing in 1974, in july. it was the decision he had to hand over the most incriminating tape, and that nixon after asking the question, is there any air in it? any give? anything for him to try to not follow it, and realizes there

wasn't, he then obeyed the rule of law. he broke the law but then followed custom and the law in leaving office. interesting question going forward, and i think we know the answer, is whether donald trump has the capacity to follow the rule of law. we've seen him again and again launch assaults against it. very much in the tradition of roy cohen, his old law, joe mccarthy's lawyer. coming up on the an verse when he was censured in 1950s. tell me not what the law is what the decision is. you may disagree with assumptions but as you say on these important cases they stood by the constitution. question's going to be now, what

does the special counsel do in all of these various matters? what does the justice department -- now made its decision appointing a special counsel, but we're entering a very complicated period that, you know, i say it's complicated. it's not all that complicated. the issue is whether, is anyone above the law? is an american president or, let's be very clear, a former american president, really above the law? i say, no. i think most americans would say, no. i think we're going to be testing that over the next few months. >> and the supreme court time and again has says, no, and susan page, it's important not to conflate other decisions of the supreme court, that they make, whether talking about the overturning of roe. a half century precedent which was shocking but actually not surprising if you look what these justices had said since their law school days. i think it's important that

commentators don't conflate those ideological decisions with these constitutional questions regarding a president's power or a former president's power, and you know, time again, when talking about the special master, whether you're talking about tax returns, whether you're talking about privilege, whether you're talking about all of these questions where donald trump's thinking, oh, they're my court because i appointed them -- he's thinking they're going to rule in this favor. not only do they not rule in his favor, but these decisions are unanimous. they're unsigned and reading, i would say, a reading endorsement of basic fundamental rules of law. >> yeah. you really see, joe, assertion of the rule of law just in the past couple days. heartening, in several cases we've seen judges appointed by president trump ruling against his interests, against his

wishes in these cases. thinking about the federal appeals court yesterday that signaled it was going to overrule that judge in florida who set up the special master for the search of classified and other sensitive documents at mar-a-lago. you think about the, how embattled, former president trump is on many fronts. the atlanta grand jury heard from senator lindsey graham yesterday. we saw in new york, the court date set for the fraud charges by the new york state attorney general against the trump organization. set for next october. you really see sometimes the legal system takes some time to sort things out, to move ahead, go through the processes, but i have to say for former president trump, this has been a very sobering couple days for him in terms of all of these, this network of legal challenges he's now facing.

>> and, willie, so much of this he should have seen coming. he thought that judges on supreme court would be like judge cannon, yesterday took a drugging of the 11th circuit again, for those that don't follow it. the 11th circuit one of the most conservative circuits in america. probably the right's version of the 9th circuit out on the west coast, but i know a lot of jumps, i know a lot of people that have worked in the 11th circuit. i mean, yeah. they're ideologically conservative, they are no-nonsense all business and in a year you had the 11th circuit yesterday, in this hearing, make it very clear they're going to overturn what judge cannon did, which was preposterous. legal scholars, the left, center and the right saying preposterous. well, the 11th circuit is stepping in and may perhaps get rid of the special master.

because there is no space. when you even go up to clarence thomas, you go up to brett kavanaugh, to samy coney barrett. if he thought he would get any special break on these rulings, he's been sadly mistaken. not only of these rulings. say again, in the 55 -- or 65 cases that trump attorneys brought to federal court to try to assert widespread voter fraud, he went 0-65. this is -- quite a compelling argument for this supreme court on these issues being, being straightforward and calls balls and strikes, all gets to donald trump's mistaken mentality which is, if i appointed you, i have impunity under you, which is to say i did you a favor. you do me a favor, like he's operating a business deal in new york in the 1980s and if you

look at this 11th circuit decision, talking about three-judge panel. to joe's point, two of those were trump appointees and thought he would get a good ride. did not. what are the implications of this? what does it mean practically this ruling of the 11th circuit? >> no ruling yet. the indication is that this is going to be bad for trump, because basically like what's the difference between the documents case and any other defendant plea indictment? the only thing trump lawyers could say, he's a former president and there should get special treatment and not even the 11th circuit court would buy that argument and it's a real drama. the three-panel basically said no instance in which you should get special treatment. why should the judicial branch given the powers be able to stop

this? fundamental issue at play and everyone came away from the hearing thinking trump's special status would be terminated. >> you and i have known donald trump for a very long time. i guess we're not surprised that he would think if he appointed somebody they were going to do him favors. but it shows a complete ignorance of the federal judiciary. a complete, absolute ignorance, and he keeps getting surprised. you know, he kept getting surprised during his term in office when judges that he appointed would rebuke him, would rebuke his policies, and this has happened time and time again. and it doesn't appear that he's -- here we are five years later. he still doesn't get it. >> you know, you're absolutely right. i think that any of us that have known donald trump at any level,

friend or foe, understands he sees the world totally in a quid pro quo kind of way. i do you. you do me, and the rules don't apply to him. it's about whatever trades in his interest. and to think that he rose all the way to the presidency of the united states and never got that out of his head, that there is a framework that is beyond whatever dealmaking you make is amazing. he's still there. he still believes that it's like him trading with a contract over building that his company was going to build that he can build with judges like that, including supreme court justices and the fact he lived in a shadow world that didn't exist with the rest of the world may end up his downfall. >> first days in office, rare controversy, appointment and installation of gorsuch, later

complained he wasn't grateful enough and wanted to know if he could undo that. talk about the ruling with the special master and how it could dovetail with the news last week about the special counsel, new appointment from department of justice? how will they work together and give a timeline we should expect? >> with the special master, examining the documents from mar-a-lago seeing potential privilege, protections that would enable him effectively to pull these documents out of the evidence cache that the justice department put together as a result of the search back in mar-a-lago on august 8. the special counsel, that investigation is proceeding on a separate track. right? the special counsel jack smith, basically took the reins on monday. now has to appoint his staff. needs to get his office up and running but the investigation's been going on four, five months and can call all of that work done and carry that forward. we expect to see a seamless

transition from the justice department's kind of national security in handling this investigation straight into the special counsel and what the special masters comes to an end as a result of the circuit decision or its own conclusion, those documents under review go back to the justice department and the justice department can evaluate whether they have sufficient evidence to charge donald trump with a crime. >> he delayed the investigation but still the investigation continues and he may get justice in the end. we'll see what happens here. political investigations reporter for "the guardian" hugo good to see you. thanks. still ahead on "morning joe" the second woman to accuse georgia senate candidate herschel walker comes forward with new evidence about her abortion. and kevin mccarthy issues an al mate um to alejandro mayorkas. resign or fate impeachment when republicans hold majority. and a cost of thanksgiving

dinner this year. steve rattner joins us ahead with his charts and a look at some of the numbers. and, howard stern will be our guest this morning. we'll talk to howard about his in-depth, unforgettable interview with "the boss," bruce springsteen. you're watching "morning joe." be right back. research shows people remember commercials with nostalgia. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's one that'll really take you back. wow! what'd you get, ryan? it's customized home insurance from liberty mutual!!! what does it do, bud? it customizes our home insurance so we only pay for what we need! and what did you get, mike? i got a bike.

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i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. hey, welcome back to "morning joe." shot of reagan national airport. busiest -- one of the busiest travel days of the year.

so -- man. it's -- that's some stories, traveling around with my mom and dad when i was younger. just leave that where it is. three of us jammed in the back seat of a dodge dart, willie. going down the highway from atlanta down to -- orlando. >> like an almond brothers song. >> got pretty intense, my friend. pretty intense somewhere along the georgia-florida line. so, you know, willie, stei some we forget steve rattner is a captive industry. we asked him, and i on the phone with him last night saying, hey, inflation is impacting thanksgiving for, you know, average american. thinking -- he comes back. so his first run-through had,

hostage it cost. russian caviar. charcuterie boards and surprising given what's been in the news. what's been in the news, right? crew debte. what are you doing, dr. oz? this is man of the people show. right? >> the sherm charcuterie board. i didn't know you had that in your vocabulary. >> i sent that to you. >> how do you pronounce that thing with cheese and stuff all over the board? yeah. by the way, i can't really -- charcuterie -- four syllables right there. >> it's a lot. >> it is for me, but i got it! i think i got it. i'm feeling pretty good. now, steve, could you go back and we can talk off-line about caviar and everything, but did you go back and get the assignment right? >> what is the assignment again?

>> never mind. you know what? forget it, steve. talk about disney. it's all i want to talk about anyway. talk about by iger and then get to your charts exactly how much inflation is affecting americans and their thanksgiving meal, but let's talk first ar disney. this is just -- pretty shocking to me. i was pretty sure iger was gone for good. i think everybody was, but he's come back, and a bit of a -- a bit of a standoff between the two bobs? >> yeah. iger back and not expecting to, no. i know that on a very, very good authority he was actually in new york and -- >> he told you, he was actually in new york? >> hmm? >> no. he didn't tell me. he was actually in new york last weekend getting ready for thanksgiving got a call friday night from the lead direct -- chairman of disney susan arnold saying we want you back.

by sunday night he was back. look, it's really -- it's a fascinating case, of course, of one of the great ceos of his time picking a successor. successor doesn't work. is he back? what happened? and i think the -- honest story, i don't believe this is a case where iger picked somebody because he wanted him to fail, or wanted to come back, or was expecting to come back. i think it's a case where the successor was simply the wrong guy and what responsibility iger might have for that, but i think that's what we're talking about here, and it really all dime a head disney recording third quarter earnings and had terrible earnings and bob chapek, new ceo particularly handled it badly on the call. the result was chief financial officer of the company among others went to the board, said, get rid of this guy. the board finally took action.

you know, there's a couple of interesting points here, though, to take away. one is that it comes in a backdrop where the business is having a tough time. easier for chapek to survive the fact streaming wars we are all familiar with are taking their toll cost disney a billion and a half losses in streaming business and facing, sort of underpinning of a fairly poor, very poor business envichlt and environment and chapek handled it particularly badly. the other who messed up his succession, jack welch. down to 350 employees, picked jeff immelt, great guy, worked his tail off wasn't the right guy and took a lot, a lot longer in the case of general electric. didn't work out. you can play the freudian games

did the great ceo pick a successor he thought might fail and wasn't all kind of, wanted him to look good or really just make a mistake? in iger's case i think it's absolutely the latter. iger is a stand-up guy and tried to pick the best guy and that's when he got. >> also, got to say, because i knew jack and i know jeff, and certainly didn't help jeff immelt that jack welch would go around trashing behind his back all the time telling everybody how incompetent he was as a ceo and that continued for some time, like you said. no suggestion that bob iger has been doing that but it is a fascinating turn. i want to -- >> actually, bob iger did do that, as a matter of fact. >> they all do it, huh? okay. >> look, i think bob, in the case of both of them, actually, i think they did it, maybe shouldn't have done it, we can debate that.

did it with justification. their successors were both failing. i know bob very well. known him 35 years. he was actually deeply troubled and disappointed, i think that bob chapek was failing. not happy, but nonetheless he did say a few things to some people and it got into the press. >> well, i would guess that jack welch friends would say probably the same thing of hill. listen, quickly, i do want to get to the charts. something i've wanted to say about my own company comcast for some time. you talked about the streaming wars but i didn't do it because i write my check, ah, i'll -- not giving up. also obviously, if you're a comcast, employee of comcast stock. so you can take whatever i say with a grain of salt here. but you've known the roberts for a very long time. it's a family business. they're pretty conservative people. and we've heard through the past three, four years, oh. they didn't take this merger.

should have taken that merger. need to jump in get into streaming wars. comcast and in retrospect looking pretty damn good, i think, at least. because the netflix model, you said, absolutely collapsed. all of these people chasing after movie catalogs, paying top dollar for them. one of disney's problems with, again, streaming costs and everything else. you have comcast now who didn't go all-in. we've had, we've seen the streaming model is not, not -- the future that everybody was saying it was a year ago, and therapy sitting flush with cash right now. so it's just fascinating how tumultuous the media landscape is right now and sometimes sitting back may be the thing to do. you look at the at&t time warner

merger that actually some people are calling perhaps the worst merger in the history of media. >> yeah. the time warner merger, warnermedia merger more accurately with discovery may turn out tos worst in history. at&t unbelievable bad business decisions getting into directv, out of it, buying turner media selling it putting a huge amount of debt on it. really it's a case study how not to run a company. as far as comcast is concerned. yeah. i was their investment banker 20 years. i was involved in pretty much all their aqua cises and they're an incredibly disciplined focused company, careful and aren't doing stupid things something like the warner merger. that said, the streaming wars are changing life for all of these companies. comcast has hung back. disney got a little lucky. bought fox, marvel, pixar.

had a huge library to launch a streaming product with and very quickly become largest one out there. more trick are for comcast. so they've been more judicious about it, but the fact that you have all of this cord cutting going on and all of these people giving up their cable bundle means even content for riders like comcast have to think about what their distribution strategy will be going forward. they have a streaming service, obviously, peacock. so far subscale because they didn't have quite the level of resources, and they have decisions they're going to have to make. as you said, proceeding carefully, very judiciously, and aren't going to do anything stupid. >> the story of media right now. interesting. story of charts and story of thanksgiving. inflation hitting people out shopping today to buy their turkey and mashed potatoes, everything else. prices up 20% for a dinner this year. sounds like, almost. >> yeah, yeah. it's pretty amazing. up 18%. up to $81.31, which you can see

on the chart. our chart in the middle there. just a year ago $68.72 to feed a family of ten. stuffing up -- talk about reasons in a second. stuffing up, rolls up, pumpkin pie up. turkey, biggest item on your thanksgiving plate. not surprisingly up 21%. also up $5. fully a third of that increase. om one down is cranberries down 13%. i know somebody that's going to ask me why are cranberries down 13%? the answer is, because unlike a lot of the rest i'm going to tell you, cranberries crops up 4%. >> oh, they where? >> a lot of cranberries out there. >> good news. >> silver lining. >> a lot of cranberries out there. reasons are interesting and cut across a whole bunch of

different foocte factors. in fairness, you can't pin it on the biden administration on the federal reserve. what happened to turkey is avian flu. that killed 8 million turkeys out of our 46 million turkeys and so turkey prices go up. the other factor that affects all the things like bread and stuffing and pumpkin pie and all that is the drought. this huge drought going on out there. almost at record levels. certainly highest in many years. we can debate, the one sort of policy area here. we can debate whether global warming has something to do with this, climate change something to do with this or not, but drought a big factor because it means less wheat, fewer potatoes and so forth also driving um prices eenormously for wheat an the ukrainian war drove up prices for wheat, hence higher prices for dinner rolls and

pumpkin pie, and i said. put it all together. what's happened? on the left is interesting. it shows how many hours somebody has to work to pay for their thanksgiving dinner. you can see that the red line at the top is for people that earn just minimum wage. the amount of time they have to work for a thanksgiving dinner is actually higher than 1986 partly because we haven't raised minimum wage. 8 hours 35 minutes back in 1986. not great for them. average worker a little better up from last year. 2 pourhours 20 minutes. on the right side, good news. inflation around the world, that is, high as 40% year over year inflation back in may of 2021, and you can't quite see it but all the way on the right, last month food price inflation barely existed and we think in november you might actually see

a slight decline in food prices. i want to leave you with good news. celebrate thanksgiving with a little good news. help is on the way, perhaps. >> and good food taste in your mouth a lot of ground today covered. from bob iger to thanksgiving. coming up looking at challenges, special counsel jack smith is facing as he takes over two high-stakes investigations into former president trump. talk about it when we come right back.

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it's a beautiful live picture as the sun comes up over the white house. 6:40 in the morning. joining us now executive editor for news at new yorker dotcom

latest piece, will the new special counsel bring donald trump to justice? in it he rights "garland appointed jack smith a veteran federal prosecutor as a special counsel to take ober investigators into former president trump's role in the january 6, 2021 insurrection. and his alleged mishandling of the classified documents. to have the current president's appointees criminally prosecuting the former president while they both run for oval office is extraordinary. trump -- announced last week that he would be running and allow him to run for president without being held accountable. others disagree saying speed up the investigation because unhuntered by justice department

bureaucracy and he joins us now. what's the consensus? garland stepping back, was going to run against the man for president trump most likely. >> slows down thing as bit but not a dramatic change. i think particularly the mar-a-lago case is the one much farther along. it's a stronger legal case, and i've heard predictions could you have decision from the new special counsel whether or not to indict trump regarding classified documents by the spring. by march or april. so we'll see what happens. i think garland is being very cautious. wanted to insulate himself not have it look like he was the man appointed by joe biden, prosecuting donald trump as a campaign plays out. >> a lot of politics at play. an active investigation into hunter biden, the president's son. talk to us about this special counsel? what should we expect from him?

the rsume seems sparkling, from the hague coming back to the united states. >> prosecuted both republicans and democrats. criticism from by fbi officials saying too slow in past cases. i think he'll move quickly. the fear here is another mueller investigation is, went very slowly. to decision made did trump obstruct the investigation of him. i don't see that happening primarily because donald trump is a private citizen. there's no legal debate, can you indict a sitting president or not. i think it's the mar-a-lago case that's the key decision here. i know from justice department sources looking for, a., evidence trump had somehow shown the documents to people, a worst-case scenario and know confirmation any russian or chinese asset had been in

mar-a-lago and trump was showing those documents off. they need to show there was damage, wasn't just sitting in a desk or basement that it actually damaged national security. the january 6th case is much less clear and will take much more time and i think if mark meadows doesn't start cooperating or someone in that inner circle, infuriating many people including you, reverend sharpton, a possibility of in charges related to january 6th. >> let me pick up right there, because there are some that have said the fact garland appointed a special counsel at all may be a senate he thinks there may be something that does reach the level of charges. are we reading too much into that? is that hopeful thinking for those of us that thinks crimes have been made? or is there merit to, if you didn't see any evidence that could lead to an indictment, why appoint a special counsel at all? >> i think he might see charges

related to classified documents. instructing the government's efforts to get them back. one advantage of a special counsel, no indictment for january 6th the special counsel writes a report why they decided not to charge someone. that's a way to kind of address public concerns about why there would be no charges on january 6th, but i think, again, i just -- kind of respect what garland's trying to do. we just -- talked about beginning of the show. imports of the supreme court ruling, judges in atlanta, 11th circuit ruling against trump. there need to be non-partisan public service in our country. there needs to be non-partisan judges and police officers and doctors and school teachers. and donald trump, spoke about this forever, sort of dark view of the world, that everyone is totally corrupt and just fighting in their own interests. i respect what garland's trying to do. >> good news, judges behaved in

a way, to donald trump of dismay. he got into the race last tuesday thinking that may help insulate him. justice department has been clear. no. we're proceeding with this. does it weigh on merrick garland's mind or the justice department's mind, yes, this man is running a president's campaign, seeks to sit in the white house again that this will at least appear political in some way? even though they started these investigations longthe -- >> it does weigh on their minds. so jack smith and merrick garland will want to make decisions about indicting donald trump i think in calendar year 2023. they don't want an indictment or trial happening in 2024. on the mar-a-lago case, i don't think if evidence is strong they're indict him but january 6ble, inner circle remains quiet, back to mark meadow and steve bannon all the others,

it's an issue of intent they need to show trump knew he lost, knew there was violence and still sent the crowd to the capitol. >> backing up to what you said about the mar-a-lago documents. no confirmation, some chinese asset or russian asset looked at it. reporting at least one thread investigators are pulling on, this idea trump had documents just showing off to club members. look at this. it's cool. i used to be president. it that's what's they determine all it is, still shouldn't have the documents. that's clear. just showing off in that regard, will that be enough to bring charges? it's that's the really difficult decision. you need, again, to convince a jury you have to show some damage. he shouldn't -- there is technically a case like david petraeus. mishandled classified documents. etraeus pled to a misdemeanor. donald trump won't. in a way he wants to go on trial, because that plays to his base. it's a very -- everyone says,

lock him up, all this stuff. even if trump is convicted, a., can run again. eugene was convicted under--i didn't remember which law around world war i and still run for president. it's a messy situation but, again, depends what they see in terms of the damage caused by hoarding these documents by donald trump. >> bring you into the conversation, palm beach county, florida, david arenberg. a lot to talk about. back to something that you predicted from the very start. that was that certain federal judge, judge cannon, was drawing way outside of the lines. outside the boundaries. looks like when it comes to this special master the 11th circuit is going to confirm what was said from the very beginning. that her rulings had no basis in law?

>> yes a smackdown. three jumps appointed by republican presidents including two appointed by donald trump himself who were incredulous and trump's legal arguments. asking, any precedent at all? a federal judge intervening in a matter like this? an investigation by the executive branch, pre-indictment and no showing of a fourth amend ment violation, and trump's lawyer, we don't have precedent and we don't need precedent because he was the president. that is not going to fly. maybe complaining about harassment of political prosecutors but not in a court of law. yes, i think 11th second will overturn jump cannon's ruling for a special master for a stay pending review of documents, and i think they very well may take this case out of our hands entirely. after all, does it really have jurisdiction? this cass was in the hands of

the magistrate judge in palm beach and took it away. she's in a courthouse 60 miles away. >> surprising is, lawyers never tried to come up with a legal argument to justify any, any of their actions. remember when, when the special master was saying, listen, you're going to have to tell me if he declassified these documents or not, because i can't really make any rulings unless i know they're declassified or not. trump's lawyers, ah -- then the judge steps in remarkably and sages trump's lawyers from having to answer a basic question that goes to the heart of what the special master was supposed to do. they -- trump's attorneys never had a sound legal argument but they had a district court judge who was willing to humiliate herself i guess with donald trump. i don't know why she's willing to go against the law of the united states of america and do what she did, but she did!

>> about to be rebuked by the 11th court of appeals. not pretty. >> explain how conservative the 11th circuit court of appeals is. this is not the 9th circuit on the west coast. >> no. it's got a very conservative reputation, and the panel that they pulled here. three jumps at random all appointed by republican presidents, by trump himself. the argument trump declassified the documents is not true because his lawyers will no make that argument in court. you can say what you want in the court of public opinion and not get in trouble, say it in front of a judge you could lose your law licence or worse. that's why the doj subpoenaed kash patel. the guy who went on social media and right-wing tv he declassified the documents. doj wants to put him under oath, gave him immunity no more fifth amendment protection. i suspect he probably told the truth and why i believe that doj

is going to indict the former president on the documents matter because why else would you give kash patel immunity ji because you're focused on donald trump. >> all right. state attorney for palm beach county, florida. thank you very much. and new yorker's david rode, thank you very much. greatly appreciate it. susan page, saw it time and time again saw it during the '65 bogus challenges to the election where rudy giuliani and others would go outside of a federal courthouse and make the most outrageous claims, and then walk inside and the federal judge would say, are you going to argue that there was white spread voter fraud? no, your honor. no. we're not going -- just keeps happening. doesn't it? >> yeah. true. you know, one question i have, joe, maybe you have a view on this is, whatever the special counsel does with donald trump is going to enrage a significant number of americans. if not held accountable, not

indicted, that will outrage some. if he is indicted, if there are legal consequences that's going to outrage others and we know -- i wonder if you think given the lesson of the last year on the legal system, is the legal system strong enough to hold? are americans going to be broadly willing to put enough trust in the process to accept whatever it is that happens to president trump? what do you think? >> you know, i think so, susan. i could ask you the same thing as far as going back. we were both there in 2000's recount. i don't remember any case really anymore divisive than that. certainly know overturning of roe was a shock. that was a case, though, in 2000 the supreme court voted along party lines 5-4 to put george w. bush into the white house, and there were a lot of predictions of how the supreme court's

reputation would be shattered forever, just wasn't the case. in fact, their standing higher then than it is now. and i think, i do think they're going to be strong enough. the court especially since you have trump appointees that are time and again ruling against his ridiculous claims. what do you think? >> well -- but, i think about the 2000 case. it was remarkably even then that democrats, democratic voters were willing to accept the outcome in that disputed election. that was two decades ago, and we've be had the trump presidency and the faith in institution has gone way down since then. >> really has. jon meacham, let's bring you in on this discussion, and -- how do you think the court as an institution will hold up? how do you think checks and balances behind madisonian --

>> the difference between today and 2000, as susan just said, is that the principle of loser, which i hate that word, but the one who came out on the short end of that case, al gore, did the gracious right and constitutional thing, and accepted it, and the country was able to move on. i would be willing to bet my, i guess my more expensive thanksgiving dinner that that will not be the case with donald trump, and so -- so much of what makes america work to go all the way back to the books that the founders were reading, is an ascent not just to the substance of the law but to the spirit of the law, and so one of the great

tests, arguably more so, perhaps, than even midterms, will be, what do the, joe, you and i have talked about this, 35%? is it a 40% of the republican party or more that is a forever trump base? what do they do? because that's -- seems to me that's the question. right? it's what's the reaction of the many? we know what the few are going to do. we know what donald trump's going to do. he's going to pound on his high chair, but what will the, both the core base and then the enabling caucus. right? the folks who have gone along with this, because power has been more important to them than principle. i wish i could say i know the rule of law would hold but i'm not as sure as i wish i were. >> i am optimistic, but we'll

just have to wait and see. susan page and jon meacham, thank you both. greatly appreciate you being here and, willie, i think the only thing, if you're in the department of justice, if you're the special counsel, you have to understand that the law's supposed to be blind. as far as the, who's being investigated. who's possibly prosecuted. and no man is above the law. no woman is above the law and they need to make their decisions based on the law in front of them, and not based on political considerations. and if a prosecutor does that, and if the judges do that, the supreme court justices do that, which they have done in cases related to donald trump thus far, i don't -- i don't mean to be overly optimistic, but i am. i think we'll be just fine. >> yeah. jumps have by and large shown themselves able and willing to

do that in the case of donald trump. especially here recently and there's always going to be the noise, as jon said, about weaponization of the justice department and irs is coming for you, that noise will always be there. it's the job of the judges to blindly go forward and look for justice, and as you say, especially in the case of the 2020 election, everything around january 6th doing it consistently. still ahead on "morning joe" steve kornacki joins us. stepping away from the big board to sit at our table and talk about the republican revolution of 1994. joe might not something about that. and the connection to congress today. plus, kari lake is still refusing to concede her race after losing the governor's election in arizona. >> poor thing. >> we'll look at the new fund-raiser event. and plus, "time" magazine, photos of the year and former

secretary of state mike mom pay oh called her the most dangerous person in the world. the second largest teachers' union, randi weingarten is our guest. plus, howard stern, one hour from now. "morning joe's" coming right back. ight back. two new ihop lunch and dinner menu items for twice the goodness, twice the flavor, and twice the choice. sirloin salisbury steak and all-natural salmon. perfect for lunch or dinner. only at ihop. download the app and earn free food with every purchase. flu symptoms hit harder than the common cold. so it takes the right tool for the job... to keep it together. now there's new theraflu flu relief with a max strength fever fighting formula. the right tool for long lasting flu symptom relief. hot beats flu. hey sammy, what kind of movie are we going to make?

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so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris we may actually finally maybe get to see what tax evadeser has been hiding from us. the supreme court today ruled against him, denied trump's request to stop democrats in the house from examining his taxes. the ruling was unanimous. no dissents. you know it's bad when even clarence thomas is like, i'm out, bro. trump very upset. as he told us many, many times he was fighting release of himself. >> if i decide to run for office i'll produce my tax returns. absolutely. >> i have no objection to showing tax returns. >> soon as my routine audit is finished i'll release my

returns. very proud to. >> after the audit is completed. >> finished with the audit open mind to it. i will say that. >> not under order i would do it. >> i'm going to release them soon as we can. i want to do t. under routine release and soon as audit is completed they will be released. >> promised to release the tax returns. >> wow. longest audit in history of the irs, apparently. now has to turn them over, the supreme court decided. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday november 23rd. jonathan lemire and the reverend still with us and joining us republican strategies and nbc news be political analyst susan del percio and nbc news political correspondent steve kornacki. get to politics in a bit but begin with breaks knows overnight. six people dead plus the shooter after a shooting in a walmart in

virginia last night. unclear whether he took his own life or was killed by responding officers. five people treated at respective hospitals. learning more from a news conference set to take place in about an hour from now and we'll bring that to you live. with hopes of becoming the next how speaker on the line kevin mccarthy is still trying to lock down the 218 votes needed to win the gavel. yesterday visited the border in el paso, texas, went after the secretary of homeland security and again revealed what the republican majority will be focused on in the coming term. >> under secretary mayorkas, delivered suspensions of our lays that have proved deadly. his actions have produced the greatest wave of illegal immigration in recorded history. our country may never recover from secretary mayorkass dereliction of duty. this is why today i am calling

or the secretary to resign. he cannot and must not remain in that position. if secretary mayorkas does not resign house republicans will investigate every order, every action, and every failure will determine whether we can begin impeachment inquiry. >> that is mccarthy in el paso, yesterday. white house spokesman responded reminding people, mccarthy pulled the same move in april suggesting republicans have not learned anything from their party's historic underperformance in midterms. that's from the white house. according to the department of homeland xoishl it's secretary mayorkas has no intention of resigning. so, joe, something we've talked about quite a bit. there is a crisis at the border. it's painful to some people to hear but it's happening and it's real. the question is, is this how the republican majority in the house that will take over in january

is going to begin its term with investigations and perhaps impeachment proceedings against the biden administration officials? >> yeah. i mean, there's a crisis at the border, and it's worse than it's ever been. that said, we are having a crisis at the border in which "we may never recover"? >> hmm. >> kevin mccarthy. my lord. and -- i guess head of the teachers' union you're going to tell me next is the most dangerous person in the world? you have no credibility. your caucus has no credibility. the -- the -- the catastrophe clowns that want to run for president has no credibility. always trying to over sell every situation. yes. there is a challenge at the border. yes, the biden administration

needs to do more. but will we never recover from it? and, i mean, susan del percio- we have inflation's up, whether progressives like it or not on twitter. americans still concerned about crime after the election. quality of life issues are still challenging us. gas prices are high. and what does kevin mccarthy do? kevin mccarthy's remarks, go a gas station in bucks county, pennsylvania. he would visit an oil derek in the gulf of mexico. in fact, if you were smart, but he goes to the border to take up an issue that failed for republicans in 2018. remember the caravans with

people with leprosy they made up? fail failed in 2020. failed in 2022. not that it's not an issue but it's a move, not that moves republicans to vote for republicans. if it didn't they wouldn't have bombed three elections in a row, but he does that and then, susan, he decides they're going to impeach a man that 95% of americans don't even know. that's what you lead with? >> joe, i don't think anyone's ever accused mccarthy of being smart, so i'm not surprised that this is the attack he's taking. taking and trying to get his speakership. we mentioned his caucus, but what is his caucus? he doesn't have one that gets him to 218 right now. you're right about issues americans care about.

there's enough out there for the republicans to say, these are our priorities. but instead, they have decided to -- to do the most inflammatory trump-like things that they can. i don't know if it's to appease the marjorie taylor greenes of the party, but mccarthy better wake up, because there's a lot more moderates in this caucus than there are fringe candidates or fringe members of congress like marjorie taylor greene or boebert. so right now i think he's trying to run a campaign for speaker, but it is turning off the men public in great numbers, and we see it, because in 2022 with those issues top of mind the american public especially independents says, wow, we care about those issues but we don't think republicans can fix it. that's bad news. >> and steve kornacki, when we talking about, discussed your podcast about the '94 evolution.

i remember we would go to the floor. if -- a revolution with steve kornacki, go to the floor and we would get up there and we would -- we wanted to balance the budget. fist, stealing from our children and grandchildren, if we pass this bill -- the end of america -- just kept doing it and finally after about a month or two, i -- i walked on to the floor. somebody was screaming up front about, you know, the world was going to come to an end if we passed the $234 million appropriations amendment and i turned to one of my friends and i said, you know, at some point they're going to catch on that the locusts aren't descending from the heavens to eat the flesh off of our bones. at some point this ka as it troe fising might backfire on us and sure enough it d. interesting.

talking about 104th congress, i appreciate you mentioning the podcast and one of the voices in the podcast. obviously somebody elected that year in one of the most famous things that resulted from it immediately that 1994 revolution, of course, was the political trauma of late 1995. the government shutdown, which at the time was not unprecedented but it was, in many ways treatment of it, a new step in our politics, and i think what we're trying to explore with this podcast that i think is relevant to right now here we are in 2022 for the fifth time now since 1994, you're going to have a change of party control in the house of representatives. the question here, will mccarthy get to 218? but republicans themselves over 218 and will have control. the fifth time house changed hands since 1994. before '94, it was absolutely unheard of.

it had been 40 consecutive years democrats controlled house of representatives. republicans weren't even close. came into needing a net gain of five seats. couldn't get over 200 seats in the house for 40 years leading up to 1994. what i think 1994 is and story of the podcast is, and why the relevant to today, it's an origin story of the current moment. what's the current moment? the nationalization of our politics. it's the denies, from massachusetts, tin o'neil, a sainted figure in massachusetts politics and political lure but his famous saying was, all politics is local. i think we now lived in an era where all politics is national. what the podcast tries to do tell the story how we got there and i think 1994 a inflection point. truly nationalized midterm election that set us on this course the last generation will the house changes hands, lines between parties, lines of divide, sharpened, really

clarified. really been living in this red versus blue, 50/50 nation so much set in notion in 1994. that's the story we're trying to tell. >> it was that emotion and sort of, again, the bubble that we found ourselves in, that this republican congress finds itself in, but things have tightened. that bubble has gotten smaller for republicans. you talk about being from massachusetts. the year in 1994 i believe two republican, i think possibly three republican -- two republicans from massachusetts. we had one or two from maine. we had, i believe we had, charlie bass and i think maybe have had another from new hampshire. we had republicans throughout new england, and that just doesn't happen anymore. not on the national level. and so they've become more

isolated, more regional, more prone to getting caught inside these bubbles where they're talking to themselves and it seems like they're doing the right thing, but, you know, steve, the rest of the country's not listening. they, because they're not in that bubble. they don't listen to the same podcasts or read the same blogs. they don't watch the same tv network that these people watch. listen to and read. >> and that's why when i say 1994 was sort of the first nationalized midterm, was an inflection point that set us on this course. it's the course of the last generation is the sorting out of the two parties along regional, demographic, cultural and ideological lines. that's the turf we explain. yeah, in the '70s, '80s, into the 1990s go to house of

representatives, senate, american politics moderate to liberal northeasternen call themselves republicans, conservative sunners call themselves democrat. could find liberals called themselves democrats. two party coalitions were very diverse sort of ideologically and regionally and it's interesting, because one of the sort of the law of unintended consequences. right? newt gingrich and republicans got control over this massive republican revolution. gained 54 seats in 1994. he really believed it was the fulfillment of goldwater '64, reagan '80, the country asserting it was fundamentally a center-right country, and what actually happened was for parts of country, that's true. and really became republican and became red since 1994, but other parts of the country, like you're saying, new england. perfect example of this. used to send moderate republicans to congress over and observer again and reacted to this new republican party they were seeing in the form of newt gingrich, the form of a

republican congress and said, no. wait. this is not the republican party we've been voting for and that's the what you've seen since 1994. the regions like the northeast, suburbs, chicago. california, go down the west coast, have all slipped away from republicans dramatically, while other parts of the country, take a place like west virginia, for instance, moved dramatically towards republicans and the whole country, not the whole country but so much of country now is just sorted out along these very easy to predict lines where you go into any given presidential election. talking 2024 election now and could have fewer swing states in 2024 than ever before, because so many people have decided which team they're on. >> first episode is about newt gingrich, gentleman from georgia. y point out it didn't happen overnight in fall of 1994. he comes in in 1979, 1980 talking about breaking up the determineic democratic majority. a long march to get to

tactically how did he do it? the combat? focus on culture issues? how did he do it? >> yeah. i think he understood the trend towards nationalization was there and the possibility there, because the media was changes. no coincidence newt gingrich got to congress january 1979. in march of 1979 first time a television camera turned on in house of representatives. c-span. coverage of the floor. he understood that you could go to the floor at any time after hours and just hold court. you could take an hour of time and members would do this to read something into the congressional record. what it existed for. called them special order speeches. 8:00 at night, go down, like to congratulate the local little league team in broughton, massachusetts, send it to the local newspaper. the town recognized. used for that. now there's a tv camera and newt

and allies claiming the time. no cnn. no msnbc. no fox news. cable news in infancy. they are producing a pre-curser to what you now see as primetime cable news. 8:00 an 9:00 at night just talking about big, national themes. talking about republicans versus democrats, conservatives versus liberals. gingrich's phrasing it's a welfare state versus an opportunist society. a big contrast between democrat and republican party dramatiing that in front of cameras on the house floor every day and slowly getting country to see the differences. he thought it was 60/40. if country saw the discrepan discrepancies, remember, reagan win, and i think he thought he could create the congressional level. he succeeded creating a

republican majority but we're left with much more of a 50/50 nation. >> specific reference. congratulations it your squad there. newt gingrich is a name that white house aides are voicing recently, because also the example they believe of congressional overreach. in the way his republican party investigated the clinton administration and eventually impeached that president some years later and see a parallel to what is happening now. tying in this conversation about what republicans and mccarthy might be doing with hunter biden and cabinet members or whatever it might be's walk us through parallels there and what warning signs for republicans? >> interesting. gingrich i saw asked not long ago about idea of impeaching biden if republicans were going back into the house and he warned against that. i thought that was notable. impeachment of bill clinton was newt gingrich's end to speaker of the house. 1998. story about monica lewinsky

broke and bill clinton had to admit to it and interesting moment september '98 polling showing the country was against impeaching clinton. as republicans moved towards impeaching him clinton's approval rating rose. an odd spectacle playing out '98, republicans moving in that direction as bill clinton gets more popular. a month before election day 1998 republicans vote in the house to launch impeachment. do it after the election but we are going to have impeachment and involving bill clinton. clinton's approval rating in the exit poll on election day 1998, 68% and democrats actually gained seats in that midterm election and 72 hours later newt gingrich out of speaker. ultimate end of speaker. a joke and speak to this on the podcast. it had been a very tumultuous newt spinningership. a coup within his own party he

barely survived. a shutdown of the government, thought finish off bill clinton instead revived him and made him viable and victorious easily in 1996. go back look at 1996 presidential campaign. snooze of a campaign. dole versus clinton, but every single democratic ad against bob dole really an ad against newt gingrich. dole/gingrich, dole/gingrich, and delivering the house became something democrats i think politically profited from his presence. >> and another fracture, talking moderates in '94. we see kind of invent of independent voters. republicans who leave the party, would rather be called independents. moderate republicans than be affiliated with newt gingrich and continuing through george bush. >> steve, didn't also theeffect

what gingrich had done, i headed jesse jacksons rainbow coalition, we were actually arguing with clinton. the dlc, democratic region conference, saying they were too moderate, but gingrich and the contract with america and all of that actually made us stop jumping on clinton, because the bigger threat was gingrich, and in many ways, he united the democrats who were having their internal fights. >> interesting, i said, because this idea of red america, blue america, if you say this middle of the 1990s nobody would know what you're talking about. concept of red and blue america grew out of the 2000 election, near perfect tie and every network using red for republicans blue for democrats and floor recount played out country stared at that map 40 days and red and blue america's

concepts were born. fundamentally i think birth of red america as we know it today i say was 1994, and birth of blue america as we know it today, which we talk about. just talking about it in last week or whenever it was, last month's elections. lost track of time. talked about suburbs in particular on this long march now. going on for decades. used to be core republican areas. really are now what saved democrat in so many elections. democrats drive up huge margins in the suburbs. started to see that in 199 6 and reaction to news gingrich and the republican congress. what you're describing. '96 reaction to the reaction to red america and lines of division clarifying in generations since then. >> yeah. you know, steve, we talked about it. something, another reason for

your -- your people listening to this podcast. not only did we see a division start to break apart in america, we saw it in washington, too. because -- before 1994, everybody -- you know, people would move to washington with their families. their kids, republicans and democrats, kids would go to the same schools, have dinner together on the weekends. barbecues on the weekend. play in the same little league. same little leagues. go to church together on sunday. synagogues, but in '94 gingrich told us, go back to your districts. be here three days. go back to your districts. hold as many town hall meetings as you can. first time in majority 40 years. keep the majority and that's the way you do it, and it was a smart political move, but i will say, though, you learn very quickly that the rhetoric got

more heated by the day, and kind of lard to call somebody a marxist or a fascist if you're both in the pick-up line, picking up your kid from first grade, or if, you know, they're coaching your kid in baseball. but that went away. i mean, i remember -- old timers mocking bob michael, who preceded newt gingrich for actually going out to dinner on weekends with tip o'neill and his family. >> and bob michael, right. republican leader 14 years, one of his best friends, tip o'neill. golfing buddies and rankled some of the newer generation of republicans coming up at that time, but i think so much of what you describe, too, in terms of the culture shift in congress, that lack of work across party aisles, that

division between the two parties, i do think, you know, for better or worse, television has so much to do with that, too. again, rise of c-span itself as an institution. just that all of these proceed ares are now televised. especially an age we live in. you can go to floor of the house and not just c-span looking for something to go viral online, instagram, twitter, facebook, whatever the latest thing is, you're looking for that viral clip. the debate over having television cameras in the house goes back to infancy of television, and sam rayburn resisted television because he said members would not work together. they'd perform for the cameras's took about 20 years of sort of -- didn't happen no matter what. ultimately going to have cameras inrepresentatives no matter what. played on the podcast, david

brinkley anchoring, i love him. historic figure. got this wrong. introduces story about the cameras in congress first day says used to be a fear they'd play the cameras. there aren't any interesting politicians anymore. all too boring. not anymore. >> and score donald trump. before we let you go, the balance in house of republicanses called for republicans last week. some ending up around 222, 213? where you have it? >> 222, 218, i would say. possible to go from 222, 213 democrats. and now 222, 213 republicans. >> and podcast is "the revolution with steve kornacki." it's great. all episodes up and available now and, yes, our man joe scarborough figures prominently in the story. susan, thank you. happy thanksgiving to you.

and to all of you. breaking news overnight. six people dead plus the gun man after a shooting in chesapeake, virginia last night. unclear whether the shooter took his own life or was gunned down by officers. five people at least being treated at nearby hospitals. and joining us, president pro temp and the shooting occurred in her district. still getting details. reporters on the ground. what more can you tell us about the shooting in your district? >> other than the fact it was a supervidser at the walmart, an investigation is going on and more information coming out at the press conference held at 8:00. i can tell you one thing i am so upset about we have all of these legislators continue to come forward offer prayers, thoughts and prayers but that's not enough. until they, until we as a

legislature not just in virginia but across the nation get serious about gun control prevention, we're going to continue to have these same kind of mass shootings. it doesn't matter if you're in a school, whether you're in a church, in a walmart. wherever you are. sooner or later one of these mass shooters will come to your area, because we have not the will to do what is necessary to bring gun control, gun prevention, gun violence prevention under control, and i'm just upset that here we've gone through how many mass shootings here in virginia and we have a legislature that adjourned a couple years ago, a mass shooting in virginia beach. had an opportunity to bring forward some common sense gun prevention measures, and we didn't do it, but, of course, one of the things that did come out of it was, i introduced a bill about universal gun, background checks and even that's not enough. we need to do more to beef up

that bill but also need to do everything within our means to make sure that we stop this gun violence. only way to do that, mixture of action to these weapons, just cease. just can't continue along this line. >> and -- >> have to stop at some point. >> back to the here and now. you just said top of our interview here it was a supervisor at the walmart. we heard something about that but not confirmed that. are you getting that information from police? >> that's the only information i got. it was from reports we've gotten so far. like i said, there's an active investigation going and and more information will come out of the press conference at 8:00 a.m. this morning. >> senator lucas, let me go back to your point, because i know you've raised this with some of the work i've done in virginia. the reality is -- >> yes. >> -- you have been disappointed that the legislature there in virginia and in many places around the country have reacted

to these situations with sympathy but not with real legislative response in terms of dealing with easy access to weapons. i mean, do you think that something will finally wake up legislators to hear what you're saying? >> reverend al that is my prayer. that is my prayer that these people will finally wake up and do something. working with you over the years on these gun prevent measures. you know as i know. people give a lot of lip service but we are the people in a position to make a difference, and i'm sick and tired of these do-nothing legislators giving their thoughts and prayers when they're in a position to make a difference. i mean it makes no sense. what makes no sense is, just as much as gun violence makes no sense, it makes no sense to have people in the legislature who do nothing about it. >> virginia state senator el louise lucas, thank you for

taking time with us. six people killed late last night inside a walmart. the shooter also dead on the scene. we're gathering more details, getting confirmations and hope, we don't have it yet, what the senator shared about the shooter. we'll stay on top of the story and get back to soon. still ahead on "morning joe" the head of the american federation of teachers' union randi weingarten is our guest and joining the conversation on the heels of secretary of state mike pompeo calling her the most dangerous person in america. also this morning, howard stern will be our guest about 30 minutes from now. we'll talk to howard about that incredible interview with the great bruce springsteen now making its way to hbo. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ht back. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions

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7:35 in the morning here on the east coast. former secretary of state mime

pompeo doubling down on criticism of teachers unions tweeting yesterday, "our greatest long-term threat is not an external enemy. it is teachers unions that push toxic wokeness on kids instead of teaching real american history reading and math." he called randi weingarten the most dangerous person in the world. joining us now is president of federation of teachers randi weingarten. start with your reaction to what, again, the former secretary of state former director of the cia who has met with and studied vladimir putin, kim jong-un, the list goes on and on calling you the most dangerous person in america? >> look, you know, i guess he's running for president. i mean, he has all the extremist talking points down. but this is, you know, in all seriousness, this is what really

bothers me about what he did. the word "filth." he called what educators do in schools all across america filthy. the people who every single day get up, they never get paid enough for what they do. they have been dealing with all the anxieties and the aftershocks and aftereffects of covid for children, including the mental health crises. they've been teaching kids to read for years. we teach a.p., we keach c.t.e., i can go through all, but what he's doing is making it harder for teachers all across america to teach kids. to bring parents and teachers together. that's what is pathetic about what he's doing. he knows better. he's a west point boy. he knows better, but he's doing

this to try to win a republican primary, and he's hurting kids, and the effort of teachers to bring the country back together. >> yeah. i mean, it's shocking that you have somebody that graduated from west point and the values that are taught there, extraordinary values, and then went on to harvard law. he knows exactly what he's doing. >> yes. >> and the stupidity, the -- the hyperbole, the ka tras tra if aization but teacher on the front line and they're already on the front line right now. we talk all the time about the fact we're having enough cops to stay on the job, to keep our cities safe. we're having trouble getting nurses to -- to stay in the profession, because of all the abuse they took from extremists over the two years of covid,

regardless of their own beliefs about masks or anything else. same thing with teachers. >> yeah. >> the same thing with teachers, randi, and, listen. you and i, we should, some day, we should have a really good debate about some of these issues around wokeness. i do personally think we overreached, went too far, but i'm seeing it on college campuses, seeing it in classes. i'm seeing sort of this balance, this discussion, the -- the -- i -- i've seen many schools have thoughtful conversations with parents. >> absolutely. >> and they're get toing to a. place where they're balancing competing interests. and then you have somebody that's a secretary of state and cia director just trying to blow everybody you for political purposes. it's really disgraceful. >> look, i, as you know -- and, joe, you and i have had many a

debate. >> heated debates. yes. >> we have! >> which is fine, yes. >> but that's the american way. to have a debate about issues. to be able to disagree about issues without immediately going to hating your colleague or your fellow american. and that's -- you know, i'm a social studies teach, also a lawyer and also head of the union. my job at a social studies teacher is to actually help kids learn how to think. to deal with complicated and conflictual matter. to teach honest history. i mean, al, the rev and i, spent how many years in new york trying to navigate through all of that, but that's what we should be arming children with. a sense of confidence and -- and -- and a sense of latitude, and ability to actually not only

dream their dreams but achieve them, and what's happening with these woke debates is -- is the teachers are really afraid of -- of answering a child's question, and calling teachers boomers, doing -- what desantis said was demagogic. it's making it much harder for us to do our jobs which is engage kids and lift them up. >> i think, also -- and i want you to address this again -- go back to joe's point. even the debate about the wokeness of not -- we can debate that. you and i worked together 30 years or more, on the woke side of it, but i think to really put people in danger, because i've been there and remain there from time to time right now, to call you a, the most dangerous person, puts you in danger. we've had to live with threats

of that, and joe's point of making teachers look like they are in a dangerous position or like they are the ones that are the "target" of some nuts that would say, those are the people that need to be go then to, to get out of the way of america. i think that -- because we're not talking about some right-ring nut on a podcast. we're talking about the former secretary of state, former cia director saying, they're dangerous, and what that triggers in the climate that we're in. talk about this. because that was my concern for you and randi when i heard it, beyond everything else, we have people that will take that to heart and feel that they're doing america a righteous move to try to deal with teachers and you in a way that is unsafe. >> well, look, you and i both know the history of incitement and what happens when you tart

with words that get increasingly demagogic. >> right. >> and what that then does. we already have a gun problem in the united states. do we need to have a mass shooting every night? >> right. >> every day? in order to understand we have a gun crisis in the united states? already have mental illness and this is inciteful. yes, we know that, and, yes did sharon and i get lots of calls yesterday about, are you okay? are you okay? but, you know, what i believe in terms of myself. i want to separate myself. what i do is, i lean in to the work that we do. i lean in to the practice of my religion when we see these kind of things happen. i lean in to the joy, if we can. i lean in to the light. like you do, rev. but what i'm concerned about is

what it does every single day for teachers in classrooms and for parents and for kids. if you call the teaching of anne frank filth, if the wall the teaching of ruby phillips filth, what does that do in terms of comedy? what does it do in terms of a common good? what does that do in terms of bringing people together? and what schools are about, we are about the, the foundational work of -- of the united states of america. we are about not only kids dreaming their dreams and helping them thrive, but how you bring the united states together. red, blue -- independents. that's what it hurts, and that's what a secretary of state knows, and the fact that he's doing this is not only shameful but it's pa thek,pathetic and

speaks volume what's that party has become. >> it's not just an attack on you but all teachers and educators. so, randi, let's just talk to the audience, i'm serious. you know, you just took a question from reverend al. reverend al and i, heated mile opponents, and put a measure on the floor about him and after that we started talking and trying to figure out our differences and where we stand apart and in recent years started talking about mistakes that we've made in the past and talked about it privately. we talked about it publicly, and, you know, reverend al's one of my dearest friends. i want to -- also talk about you and me. i can't think of many issues through the years that we agreed

on at times. >> right. >> but the one thing i've found and i'm just saying this to the audience because they need to understand why somebody like secretary pompeo's statements are so destructive. i had strong disagreements with you. and every time we sat down and talked, i knew you were coming from a position of good faith. you have to represent a lot of people in your union. you can't turn that union on a dime, but there are times that, like, for instance, the last time we had a lot of talks about opening schools back up during covid. and you kept telling me off-line, working on it. i got to bring people along. i'm trying to get those schools -- you came on the show, said, let's open it up. on these woke issues. we've talked about that as well. you know, people can, like, brush that off. parents, as you know, as we've talked about, are deeply concerneds about that. we can figure out a way to talk

about the sins of america's past at the same time we talk about the greatness of america's past. and you and i, we have conversations. we both get to that same place. >> yep. >> but we have to be able to talk without this hyperbolic, again,catastrophizing. that just short circuits our decisions. >> joe, i would just say, look, you and i, we're public figures. we're also used to the slings and arrows and are willing to get up, engage in it and we understand that that is the promise and potential of america, and we do that because we know that when we -- that our unity or the things that bring us together are probably much

more important than what divides us. but what i'm saying is that a teacher in a classroom right now or a parent who's watching this, who's concerned about her or his child right now, they feel alone in so many different ways, and they don't have the agency that you and i have, joe, and when i hear pompeo do this about, saying that what is taught is filthy, or attacking teachers, or attacking their representative who's been re-elected by them, if makes people feel more alone and more isolated, and what we need to do more and more and more, which is part of the reason why opening schools was so important, bring back the relationships. bring back the comedy.

bring people together so that people can see that. you know, they're not just looking at their devices. that they can see that, that kind of relational well-being, regardless of what you believe, is what's vital in terms of overcoming the doubt, overcoming the problems, overcoming the anxiety, and the aftershocks. not only of covid but the inequities. that's why i'm so concerned about what he did. >> by the way, the extraordinary efforts of teachers to keep our children engaged through the pandemic, makes us appreciate them all the more. thank you for all the work, teachers watching. the president of federation of teachers randi weingarten. >> thank you. happy thanksgivingants same to you. up next, president biden takes action on student loans with his forgiveness plan tied up in the courts.

plus, dr. fauci the farewell from the white house. and still ahead, "times'" top photos of 2022. we have the director of photography and we're moments away from our interview this morning with howard stern. "morning joe's" coming right back.

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after my car accident, ♪ call owondnder whahatmy c cas. eight million ♪ so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris it's a beautiful morning on thanksgiving eve. and "time" magazine is reflecting on some of the most important moments from around the world. joining us now to discuss photographs and how they were

chosen, "time" director of photographer. good morning. queen elizabeth ii back in london. what an image. >> yeah, when the queen died we dispatched photographers around the world, and it was raining in london that morning, and it shows a rain poncho over an image of the queen, and it was an unusual artful look of mourning. >> let's turn to ukraine. this was in lviv at a library, and volunteers weaving camouflage nets to send to soldiers. tell us about this one. >> yeah, we have seen louder

moments, but this is a quiet moment showing the mobilization of women that have come together to offer time and volunteer skills to help the war efforts and it shows a army behind the scenes. it's beautiful. >> another one from ukraine, a ukrainian soldier helping a mother and daughter to evacuate a suburb of kyiv back in march, and this was in the early days of the war. >> yeah, this was by a photographer who was ukrainian himself, and he captured this moment of this woman, julia, and her 6-month-old daughter, emma, evacuating, and we used this image on the cover of time and we found out the woman and her child are safe, and they were reunited with family and friends, and it's just a harrowing moment she went through here. >> this next one here, it's in

florida, homeowners walking outside after the devastation from hurricane ian. >> yeah, this was a group of people outside their home waiting to assess the damage, and this was the woman clinging on to this purple chair, and it reminds you how quickly lives are turned upsidedown in an event like this. >> lastly, this one here in washington, d.c., justices posing for their official photo after the installation of new justice ketanji brown jackson. >> i think we have seen a version of this picture many times before, but this one taken

by phillip montgomery, and it shows the first black female justice appointed to the court, and it was taken in a dramatic way. >> we just scratched the surface in the new issue of "time" magazine, and you can also see them online. we appreciate it. happy thanksgiving to you. after nearly 50 years on the airwaves, howard stern finally landed one of the most elusive interviews, and he will join us to talk about the conversation with bruce springsteen. howard is next on "morning joe." lincoln's witnessed a good bit of history. even made some themselves. makes you wonder...

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it's 8:00 on the nose in new york city. we begin this hour with new developments in the overnight deadly mass shooting at a walmart in chesapeake. the shooter was, in fact, a disgruntled employee. six people were killed and the gunman is dead. joining us from outside the briefing room at police quarters is nbc's julie tsirkin. >> reporter: it's the first long briefing this morning, and there are a lot of unknowns still including the possible motive for the shooter that open fire as we know now, and he was a disgruntled employee and he opened fire killing six, seven total dead. officers tried to secure the walmart, and it's a big building

just a few miles up the road here, and he was trying to see who was injured, and five were treated at nearby hospitals. that's at this point, all we know. we have reaction coming in from the mayor, and senators and local lawmakers, and this is the day before thanksgiving and you can imagine when the shooting happened, just an hour before the store closed, it was busy as people were doing their last-minute thanksgiving shopping. >> it was an employee of this walmart. i know it's early, but what do we know about the shooter? >> reporter: we don't know much yet, except he was an employee. we saw from witness accounts, people on social media sharing that information early on. we know people were in the store, and we don't know if all

six were fellow employees or some were patrons shopping in the store, and that's information we are hoping to find out any briefing -- information in the briefing. >> and then julie in chesapeake for us this morning. thank you so much. the biden administration is extending the pause on federal student loan payments, as the payments which had been set to resume in january now could be delayed until at least june. according to the department of education, borrowers will resume payments 60 days after the case is revolved in court.

dr. anthony fauci likely gave his final briefing yesterday before leaving government at the end of the year. >> so my message and my final message may be the final message i give you from this podium is that please, for your own safety, for that of your family, get your updated covid-19 shot as soon as you are eligible to protect yourself, your family and community. >> dr. fauci has served since 1984, and his retirement comes after half a century on the public lines on the country's gravest front lines. >> a great public servant, no

matter what insurrectionists have said about him. people really shaped my life in music, and our next conversation with bruce springsteen, and it stands with rick rubben's documentary with paul mccartney recently, and it's one of the best i experienced. howard stern's interview with the boss was brutal, and it covered springsteen's tough relationship with his father, and how he wrote his classic hits and why his children would rather hear 50,000 people booing their dad instead of cheering him on as a rock star. the conversation lasted more than two hours. you can see it all on a

brand-new session this sunday on hbo and hbo max. take a look. >> bruce springsteen is a few inches away from me, and i am starstruck. >> do you have a song in your head every day? >> no, years will go by with nothing. >> really? >> yeah. you have to take your mind there and hope your ass will follow. ♪ sit tight ♪ take home, thunder road ♪♪ >> i am listening to the trailer, and i already heard the interview, and i have got chilled -- i got chills.

it originally aired live on sirius xm, and i went on the sirius xm, howard, and listened to the interview. what i love is you were not trying to be cool. there was not an ounce of critic in you. you were a fan and you were in awe for over two hours. you were like a 14-year-old kid, like a deejay. it was beautiful, wasn't it? >> that's how -- by the way, that's how i feel sitting here with you and willie. i watch you guys over morning -- >> of course. >> -- like a 14-year-old boy watching you two. and happy thanksgiving in all of that. thanks for having me on, and

hearing willie read the news, it doesn't get more depressing than that. the news is sad every day and it makes me crazy. speaking about bruce, though, which was the highlight of my career. i didn't know what to expect. i just wanted bruce to have a good time. that is what i really wanted out of this. it's like, oh, my god, this guy is so accomplished. i want him to, you know, sit down and talk to the audience in a way that is meaningful. and he really did. he just kind of was as loose as a goose, and i was a fan sitting there and we had so much fun that although the interview aired on sirius xm, i went to the higher ups in my organization, and i said i would love the rest of the people that don't have sirius xm to see this interview. bruce was so great, i would love

to show it on a different format and they put it together with the folks at hbo. if you had the opportunity to sit down with -- this guy is catalogue. his catalogue is so enormous and every song so good that your mind is blown. you have a chance, and we're alive at the same time as this guy. what makes him tick? what made his write these songs? what is his process? bruce was gracious, and he gave me 2 1/2 hours and answered everything, and sat there with a guitar and a piano like he was in his play room, and he started to perform and have fun.

i felt this interview was so special, that i said to bruce, is it okay if i put it on hbo? he said, yeah, go ahead and do it. love it. he doesn't have anybody he answers to. he said, go ahead and do it -- me, i call my agent, and he doesn't, he just says do it. this was pretty great. >> mika, she's with your cat right now, with meatball. we will get back to mika in a little bit. so i remember reading about, you know, lennon's lost weekend in '74, and i remember talking to a fan that said they saw him start a fight, and somebody said it's

bad when you find out your hero is a jerk. but with mccarthy and that interview, and with bruce, you see he's a nice guy, a humble guy. and at the end what you said about your kids, and he said, you know, i found that my kids don't need a rock hero in their house, they need a dad. there was that humility. you just walked away going, my god, i have been cheering for a guy for 50 years who not only is the essence of rock 'n' roll, but he's a damn good guy. >> what i learned, joe, and in taking up on that theme, bruce, i said to him, you have written some of the best love songs ever. how do you know how to love, love your children, love your wife? he said this is something i had

to learn the same way you learn to play the guitar. he said, i had to spend thousands of hours learning guitar and piano, and i would go over to my aunt's house to learn to play the piano, and his father was an alcoholic. his father would -- i learned so much about this from him. he had to take on an adult responsibility. he didn't see a normal view of love. what he did is, he put his butt into therapy and worked hard and learned lessons and learned the humility, when you have children, if you are a superstar, you can't be the superstar all the time and you have to give children space to be the star's in the family. he had to learn his wife in a way that would be long lasting and lead to a lasting marriage. even talking about as he got

older, he needed hearing aids. all these things were revealing -- i don't know about for you, but you heard the interview, and for me there was many goose bumps. when he was talking about clarence, his long-time saxophone player, and he's on his deathbed in hospice, and he went to the home and he said i felt he was still with us because i would squeeze his hand and he would squeeze back. and rather than talk about it, bruce grabs his guitar and starts playing "the land of hopes and dreams." it moved me, and i have not gotten emotional on the air, and

i have had my issues to that, and i said, bruce, that opening to "jungleland," and he said, i don't remember how to play it. >> he plays a little bit of it, and then he goes into back streets. again, you are sitting there listening -- i can't imagine what it was like being there. even staring at my phone hearing him just go to the piano and play it, again, chills. it was extraordinary. >> for me it was surreal. i meant every word of it, when he walked in, i was starstruck. why i am so in love with my job, and i can be awfully negative sometimes -- that's an underestimate about my job, but -- he's explaining

everything and playing. it was just amazing. how about he's sitting there with me and talking about how he got his record deal. he had to addition to jon hammened, and rather than just talk about it, he demonstrates, and he went in and he starts playing, and it was the best dinner conversation ever. and bruce was not on, he was just being himself. >> and he takes a moment where he's in front of the most powerful guy. and he talked about clarence, and he said, i sang to him and that's all i know how to do. 9/11, i said, all i can do is

say a prayer, and he writes a song for new york city and it's beautiful. i promise, willie, i will turn it over to you in a second. there's one thing you brought up and i want to draw a line, and a couple moving quotes game, in the final moments of the interview, one from bruce and one from you. bruce said -- i don't have the exact quote, and he said, you know, i am a fraud, and i am not a blue collar guy, and i never worked a blue collar guy, but you know, i was my dad's agent and i was my dad's representative on earth. i wanted to keep him alive, and i wanted to sing about the jobs he did and wear the clothes he wore, and i took on his persona. it was so moving. and then your parallels with bruce and your relationship with your dad, you said that my

dad -- you said, he was my biggest hero and something along the lines of my biggest curse, and you could never get that acceptance, and he could never get that acceptance, and -- >> yeah, i related to bruce's story and it was so interesting to me. i could have have spoke to him for 12 hours and what drives you to be famous and perform, and this relationship between bruce and his father was such a dynamic and such a drama, in my opinion, and bruce goes into it. when i called -- bruce actually called me, when we decided we would do the interview, and we said, anything you want to talk

about, and i said i am fascinated with the psychotherapy and your relationship with your father, and he goes, let's go there, let's talk about it, come on, man. that meant he was ready to sort of open up about this relationship. it's true. bruce says i never worked these blue collar jobs, but this was his father's life. in many ways, i didn't have a relationship with my father, and my father seemed to be angry with me all the time. but my entire career on the radio, i was doing an impression of my father. the way my father would yell and scream, and my father was super opinionated, and he never waivered in his opinion and he was always direct, and i loved him about that and i was an observer of my father and carried on his tradition even though i didn't get to know my

father that well. so you know, it's complicated. bruce goes into his story in the interview and he explains the complexities of it and it's a dynamic conversation. i was so happy after i did this interview. not for myself, but for the fact that bruce fans, people who are musicians, when they watch this, they will understand bruce springsteen and his process and i am just thrilled to present it, and to have been a part of it, you know? >> that interview was a gift to all of us, too, to fans of, both, you and springsteen. i grew in new jersey, so it's state law to be a springsteen fan, and i listened to you since high school, so to two the two of you at the top of your game, and it was a culmination, a brass ring, you finally landed the interview, and you talked

about it the next day, you couldn't believe your luck, and there you were sitting in breyer cliff manor, and now you are sitting across from springsteen for 2 1/2 hours. what was that like for you on a personal level? >> i started out as a progressive rock studio, and the more obscure the cut the cooler you were on the radio, and it was about finding the obscure cut springsteen song. these records were classic. i played them. this is how i began my career. of course, you know, i really started to appreciate bruce

springsteen when he would play these songs acoustically, and he would play these songs like "nebraska," and it was just him. he said if a song is good, i should be able to play it here for you and i should be able to do it on my own and it still hold up, and, boy, those songs do hold up. there's a couple guy, and as joe mentioned, john lennon, and i wish i could have interviewed him, and he was ridiculously talented and was more important than any religious figure i ever learned about, and if i could interview springsteen, mick jaggar -- these are the guys you

want to interview and who we are most grateful for. >> i can hear a whole bunch of springsteen interviews or celebrity interviews and the one you do with that person will be different, and when that person steps into the studio with you they agreed that it's all on the table, you can ask about anything. how do you explain your ability to elicit that from those people? even springsteen, how do you go about that when you approach these interviews? >> i have always genuinely been interested in people. in hartford, there's nobody to interview when you work in hartford radio, and i would interview the local car dealer for the public affair show, and everybody has a story to tell. it's very interesting.

i am talking to the local car dealer and he's telling me about the rise to the best car dealer in hartford. i am just genuinely interested. i don't want to make the interview about myself, and that's number one, and that's the most important thing anybody can learn in broadcasting. the fans want to hear what springsteen has to say, and it's irrelevant what i have to say. it's more important we get to what drives springsteen and what makes him tick. and he feels generally relaxed and open when he sees somebody is genuinely interested. you begin to ask questions that any of us would ask, and it just leads to the best, you know, moments. let's face it, this interview was great because bruce was there to play. bruce came in -- when he made that phone call to me, he said what do you want to talk about,

besides psychoanalysis, he said what songs? i sent him a list of 25 songs, and he came and he said, any songs you asked about, i will play them, ask them about. and he started doing the performance he did for bob dylan. wow. what a 2 1/2-hour experience. i am still on a high from it, and i walk around the house and i say to my wife, you should be impressed with me. she's not, but she should be. >> it doesn't work. we have to play the clip of the "thunder road" moment, and that was what brought you to tears for the first time since you have been on the air. >> clarence on the sax, you had him there for 16 hours and you wanted him just right.

>> that's correct. >> a lot of guys would have walked out and said [ bleep ] this guy, and -- >> you have to find people with no place else to go. that's your first important thing when putting your band together. don't find people that have options. >> where were you when you came up with that piano intro. >> i can't play it anymore. >> what do you mean? >> i can play "back streets," i'll bet. let me see. ♪♪ >> i wrote most of "born to run" on the piano, and most of the record was written on my aunt's

piano, and that's why all the songs have -- ♪ ♪ the screen door slams ♪ like a vision she dances across the porch as the radio plays ♪ ♪ roy singing for the lonely ♪ ♪ don't turn me on again ♪ ♪ ♪

it was all written on the piano. you know? ♪ ♪ you are scared and thinking maybe we're not that young any more ♪ ♪ that's all right with me ♪ ♪ you can hide beneath your covers and study your pain ♪ ♪ make crosses for your lovers ♪ ♪ throw roses in the rain ♪ ♪ waste your summer and pray in vain for your savior to rise from these streets ♪ ♪ all the redemption i can offer is beneath this dirty hood ♪ ♪ with a chance of making good somehow ♪ ♪ what else can we do now ♪

♪ except roll down the window ♪ ♪ and let the wind blow back your hair ♪ ♪ well these two lanes will take us anywhere ♪ ♪ we have one last chance to make it real ♪ ♪ but trading these wings for wheels ♪ ♪ heaven's waiting on the tracks ♪ ♪ oh, come take my hand ♪ ♪ we're riding out tonight to case the promise land ♪ ♪ oh, thunder road, oh, thunder road ♪ ♪ well -- >> as we continue to listen to this, i mean, i have listened to your interview with bruce driving around the car, and i am

getting it again, getting the chills and a tear myself, and what was it about this performance that got to you so much? >> first of all, watching his hands on the keyboard. those are two hands like everybody has, and yet look at what he's doing. i don't know about you guys, but when i read in the past about bruce springsteen, one of the holes in his history is i don't understand how he became such an accomplished piano and guitar player, and he never took lessons, none of that. bruce told me he would take 45 records, the old 45s, the singles, and slow them down to 33 and a third, and he would learn from that. a lot of people can't come up with that kind of thing.

it's wild to watch him do that. and "thunder road," i don't know what it was, bruce stripped down with no band and that piano, and it just goes right through me. the way he breaks into it -- it almost got me again. i almost started crying. it's that beautiful. it's the most beautiful thing. >> when tim russert was on, tim just started talking about "thunder road," and they played that at his memorial service, and it's an extraordinary song. i want to talk about something else that you revealed in this interview. i have been listening to bruce for 50 years, right? first of all, i thought it was fascinating, you asking him about being a great guitarist. he said, yeah, i am and i am

underrated. the guy used to say i shred on the jersey shore, and he doesn't get respect that i should. >> isn't that great? it's good to see a guy not be so humble, and it was bruce coming to his own defense and bragging about that. i thought it was great. >> i thought it was cool, and you listen to his guitar playing, and you just feel that he's got it and he's always holding back. it's like clapton, and it's like what he doesn't play or shred, because his songs are not geared that way. howard, as you know, you can interview musicians and they get in the studio and they can hide behind a lot of things in the studio. what surprised me as much as the personal revelations -- what surprised me is how damn good he was on the piano, and how damn

good he was on the guitar, and how damn good his voice was in his 70s, and more beautiful and power than before. and you think how the blank does he do it? and you and bruce talk about the drive. you both had an obsessive drive. this guy would go out at the height of his fame, and play for 3 1/2 hours, screw up on part of a song, and he would get on the bus and take notes and beat himself up for the next 24 hours until he got back out on the set -- i mean, that drive. don't you think that -- >> yeah, what i found fascinating. bruce said this and i have been talking about this on the radio forever with my own family dynamic, but he said most people in showbiz who succeed have one parent who basically beat them up, and another parent that

thought they were the second coming of christ. if that was not my childhood, a father who said i would never be successful, and a mother who said dress every day like you are going to meet the governor because you are my representative on earth. and when bruce talked about that, and he said this is a family dynamic that sets up sort of this drive, this insane drive, and really, at the base of it, as bruce points out in this interview, wanting to be loved, you know, if you don't get that love at home and you never had it, you want people to just pay attention to you. you want to be heard. i think that was the drive that made bruce great. i mean, sure, he has musical ability, but he put in the thousands and thousands of hours. i mean, i relate to his story. you mentioned my movie. when i was a kid growing up, i

told my dad i want to be in broadcasting, and he was in broadcast engineering, and he would say, you don't do anything, you don't act or anything, and all you want to do is prove him wrong. bruce brings that out in this interview. this kind of obsession, you want to understand, why do some people work harder than others? bruce had things he had to work out, and he did it. he obsesses over every mistake. like you and willie do when you do the show, and it's legendary in the broadcasting business, you and willie get together and say what did we do wrong? how can we improve? it's all the same. >> yeah, sometimes we are up at

10:00, 11:00 at night saying that intro, how could we have done that better? >> i am a big fan of your show, and i wonder why when you and willie talk sports, i enjoy it. i am not a sports guy, i don't care about sports, but i like to know what is going on. mika gets so upset with the two of you, and i started yelling, mika, let them talk sports or let's eliminate sports from the show, and there's a lot we have to work out here. mika seems really annoyed when you talk sports. >> that's a real thing. i want to talk about this moment in time, and you talk about it, you are alive when bruce is alive, and you are alive when paul is alive, and bruce started talking about the golden era, how lucky he was.

he said, you know, we may be old men and we grew up in the golden era. and i think sometimes how lucky we are, just growing up and listening to music in the '60s and '70s. i lived in upstate new york when i was in middle school, and at night while everybody is watching "happy days" and everything else, i was up and listening to cklw, and i would turn the dial and listen to george michael and wvc and all the reverb, and it sounded like he was at the bottom of a well. it's like i think younger people can't appreciate once upon time in hollywood, because it's just magic. >> well, we sound like -- we do

sound like a bunch of old men. back in our day it was great. i can't help but agree with you, there was an energy in the '60s and '70s when the beatles came over and the stones came over, music was not just music, it was our whole identities. we changed the way we worked, and they touched us. in a way religion never touched a nerve or philosophy, teachers, and these guys were our teachers. i am a big neil young fan. four kids were killed at penn state, and he walked into the woods and he walked out singing about the murders. in 20 minutes the guy wrote this song. there was an energy. music meant everything. it was the protesting of the war. you might even say it brought

our political world to its knees. nixon was afraid of john lennon. these guys had an enemies list and it included musicians. it was powerful -- the music was so powerful. i used to play people on to new music, and it was mind blowing, and i feel bad for musicians now that they did not grow up in that time, because the music was explosive. people would go home and listen to entire albums. nobody does that anymore. and i don't think we will ever see that again the way music is now, and it's just not the same. >> i swear we are not going to play the full interview, and we want people to watch hbo this weekend, and here bruce talks

about his song writing. >> i love when you come out with your wife and you sing together. >> yeah. >> that song -- >> "tougher than the rest" i can't do appropriately without patti. it's probably my best love song, maybe. because it's so understated. >> how do you come up with this song? i am trying to understand the process so i can imatate it and make a lot of money. how does it work? >> first thing you want to do is a good metaphor or a good title, and so "tougher than the rest" is a good title. all right, what is this guy trying to say, you know? well, he's in a bar. there's somebody there he's interested in.

you are thinking, hey, i am not anything that special, but i last. you know, when the chips are down, i'm there. >> in other words, the secret to love is maybe i am not the most beautiful, or the most popular, or the highest earner, but i will be there for you in time of need. >> yeah, i will be there. >> that's the first thought you had? >> yeah, that's who i am writing about, so i got ♪ ♪ it's saturday night ♪ ♪ you're all dressed up in blue ♪ ♪ i've been watching you a while ♪ ♪ maybe you've been watching me, too ♪ ♪ so somebody ran out ♪ ♪ left somebody's heart in a mess ♪ ♪ well, if you're looking for

love ♪ ♪ honey, i'm tougher than the rest. >> such a great song. again, howard, just a gift to be able to listen and be a fly on the wall with you two and hear how he came up with that. >> i sat there with him and did the interview, and i am still watching it now and learning something from it. "tougher than the rest," if you have seen him do that with his wife, it's a remarkable love song. what i love about this love song, i only got one thing, i can out last these other guys, i will stick with you through thick and thin, and as a man i would love to live up to that ideal. and bruce said, i only write songs when i have something to say, and what a beautiful thing to say. he's just something else. it's the most remarkable 2 1/2 hours of my life. i really mean that.

it was pretty remarkable. >> a couple interesting things about his song-writing process, and you asked him what comes first, and for 90% of songwriters and rock -- it's always the music. you hear the music and then you figure out the rest, and then he told you, he did the lyrics first, and you read his lyrics and dive into them and you understand, the guy, you know, the guy prioritized lyrics above all else, you know? >> joe, as a nonmusician i don't even understand that. i don't understand writing the lyrics first. it doesn't even make sense to me, but that's what he does. that's what he's so brilliant at. seems to me as a nonmusician, you would have to come up with a tune and hum and come up with a

few words that fit in there, and it's completely the opposite. like a great painter, there's a process he has to go through to figure out a great song. it isn't like he wakes up and hears "better than the rest," and no, he has to sit there and work on it and bang it out on the piano and figure it out. you realize there's no free ride, nothing comes easily, and there's hard work involved and he proves that when he talks about it. my mind was blown, and he was talking about his classics on "blinded by the light," and he said he wrote it and he was a young songwriter, and he took out a rhyming dictionary -- i didn't know that exists, and he took out a rhyming dictionary, and i rhymed all the words -- it will make me go and buy a

rhyming dictionary. >> and the story behind that, clyde heard it and said we need a hit, and he goes and does this. you talked about his song writing, and you asked him if he wrote every day, and his response, sometimes he would go years without writing anything? >> yeah, at five years old, i used to hear radio shows in my head, and i was a guy in a room and i was talking to characters, and i was like soupy sales meets long john neville or something like that. i assumed bruce wakes up and has an annoying song in his head, and he said, no.

do you have a song in your head right now? no. i don't have anything to say right now musically. it's crazy. >> crazy. it really is. i want to play this clip for everybody. i was going to say it was one of the most moving moments -- there's so many damn moving moments in this interview, but here was one that drew me -- you know, got me tearing up when he was saying good by to clarence clemons. let's play the clip. >> when clarence was dying, do i have it right that you went to see him and he actually passed away -- you were sitting and strumming the guitar to him? >> yes. >> that is just so -- you went to see him, you had your guitar and you felt -- i assume he was not conscious at that point but

you felt internally like, hey, maybe he could hear me. >> i had a feeling he could hear me because he could squeeze your hand. when i first went to see him, there was a response to your voice and you being in the room, it felt like, so i just took a hunch and said, well, you know, i knew -- i knew he was going to die so i just brought the guitar in and just played, you know -- i strummed a song called "land of hope and dreams" -- yeah, "land of hope and dreams." >> why did you choose that? >> it's about passing over to the other side. it's about life and death. >> so you are sitting there with clarence? >> yeah. >> and he was a dear friend, and he believed in you and you believed in him. >> yeah. >> and you started to strum.

>> yeah. >> were you alone with him or were there other people? >> i was trying to think -- he had some relatives. his brother was there. i think, jake, you know, his nephew was there. and there were a few other people, you know. it was just a very tiny little space. so it was just -- ♪ ♪ grab your ticket and your suitcase ♪ ♪ thunder is rolling down this track ♪ ♪ don't know where you are going now ♪ ♪ but you know you won't be back ♪ ♪ well, darlin' if you're weary ♪ ♪ lay your head upon my chest ♪ ♪ we'll take what we can carry ♪ ♪ and we'll leave the rest ♪ ♪ big wheels roll through fields

where sunlight streams ♪ ♪ meet me in the land of hope and dreams ♪ ♪ >> you know, it is a hymn. he called it a hymn, howard. this interview, it was not like an aging rock star that was trying to, you know, put vaseline on the camera and smooth over the rough edges. this guy talked about -- yeah, he talked about the glory days, and he also talked about his faith. he talked about death. in this song -- also another moving moment, last man standing, when he talked about driving down to say good-bye to the last member of his band that was dying of cancer, and went

there and then wrote "last man standing." i thought, you know what, talk about a clear eye view not only of the glory days but his own mortality, man, it was heavy. >> yeah, i felt the same way that this is a guy that has lived a long life, but he's really learned a lot. he shared a lot of wisdom, and, you know, that's why -- getting back to my original point, i thought it was so important and i am glad to be on your show this morning because more people will hear the interview and listen to the interview, and there's something to be learned here. it's inspirational, even for nonmusicians. when you see a guy so dedicated and in love with what he does and puts so much energy in his

craft, i felt like, wow, no matter what your career, you could learn from bruce springsteen. he's a pretty dynamic guy, and just really wonderful. you can't help but fall in love with him during this interview. i certainly did. i just thought, wow, what a spectacular human being. i don't know again in my life if i will be able to sit in a room with him and have this kind of experience. who knows, you know? we just don't know. thank goodness for 2 1/2 hours he sat with me and was patient with me, and generous with his time and really gave me a gift. i love -- i just love this, thae talking about it on your show, it will be on hbo now. the it's on sirius xm, certainly, which is my broadcast home. so, it's really a spectacular

moment for me, certainly. >> we're so lucky, howard, that you let us sit in with you and let us hear it. if they haven't heard it on sirius, they can see it on hbo this weekend. >> i knew it was a big one for because you came out of your house for the first time in 2 1/2 years to sit with bruce. >> i do have a psychiatrist. yesterday's session was all about how am i going to get out of this nightmare of covid? everybody has moved on. you and joe are in the studio. >> come on out. >> joe is running around with mika. willie, you're out there. ment everybody's running around. al sharpton's out there. everybody. and -- by the way, al and i go back musically. i've had james brown be in my studio. >> he was just talking about that this morning. >> yeah. many, many years ago and reverend al sharpton and james brown were the closest of friends and we would hang out. and james brown was fantastic. and al was fantastic.

and we'd have these great conversations. the what a great performer and another guy you could learn from. the but, yeah, i don't know. i don't know, willie -- >> it's time. come on. >> it's been a long, strange road, man. you know, this is the culmination -- what were we talking about? i don't even remember. >> talking about you leaving the house. yes, this interview was the culmination. >> oh, yeah. so wait. i'll go to you guys for some wisdom now. >> okay. >> i don't know -- i don't know -- i don't want to get covid. have you guys had covid? >> yes. yes. >> yeah. i just got it. >> okay. so i don't want to get it. my mother's 95. she got it. she got long-term covid. it's -- you know, it's like rolling the dice. so i'm hiding in my home, that's why i love doing your show. i can hide in my home and do it. i don't know how to re-integrate back into society. bruce said to me on the phone, i

really think this would be a better interview if you came in and sat with me in person. so of course my neurosis kicked in. ima a germophobe. i'm masking up, but i did, i came in for bruce and thank god he told me to come in because it would not have been the same. you know, sitting in the room with him was powerful. it was powerful. sitting there. i'm like, you know, the whole interview i'm sitting there going -- he's playing. i'm going, is this really happening right now? the two of us are sitting here and he's playing in my living room. this is insane. i've got to figure -- i don't know how you got over the whole covid thing but i'm still living -- you know what i'm like? i'm one of those soldiers after world war ii that was hiding out in the japanese jungle. the war was over for years and the guys couldn't come out of the jungle. that's me. i couldn't do it. >> get the last booster and come

on out. >> we've got to get you upstairs to feed the cats and everything -- >> oh, yeah. >> my wife, christina, was an intern for you in the summer of 1996. i know you can't see it. we have a photograph up there. the it was the summer you were shooting "private parts." she's an extro in "private parts." she was hypnotized by paul mckenna. got in a big fight with you on the network. she loved you. loved working with you, gary, fred, robin, the whole group. just wanted to share that with you. >> well, one day we have to sit and talk about the accomplishments of joe and willie. willie, i think you're a great news reader. you're loose, you're relaxed, you mix it up with joe very well. joe i'm really fascinated with. he was in politics, became a broadcaster, which is insulting to broadcasters because you're not supposed to be able to do both. yo you are' not supposed to be able to leave broadcasting and suddenly have your own tv show. i don't know how that all happened.

there's a lot of story there. maybe we'll sit down in the studio, joe will bring his guitar and we'll find out really what makes this dynamic duo tick. it'll be -- it'll be amazing, right, joe? who knows. >> wow. >> who knows what would come out of it? >> i know what you want to come out of it. i guess i want to tell you that, you know, i coach little league baseball and there's one kid on the team, he actually called in and talked to you for about 20 minutes before his bat mitzvah about six months ago. his dad listens every morning and you -- you know, a couple months ago you had some fun with mika and me. i'm walking out to the baseball field and everybody's just looking down. and i look at the kid. he's like 13 years old. i go, you didn't listen to howard going into school today did you, ty? he goes, yes, sir, i did. i was like, oh, geez. >> well, you know, the worst

part -- joe, the worst part of doing the morning radio show live, especially the way i do it, you know, i got on this role. i was actually watching your show before i went on the radio so you were on my mind and i was doing this imaginary thing in my mind, what is it like for mika and joe at home? >> yeah. >> and it got very heavy. it was all my fantasy, and then after i did that -- and i thought -- i said, man, i was funny today. i was on a role. >> yeah. >> of course at mika and joe's expense, which is most of my humor, and i went upstairs to my wife and i said, i really like mika and joe. we adopted some cats to them. we do animal rescue. >> yeah. >> i said, oh, god, i was filled with dread. oh, god, they probably think i'm a disgusting animal and how dairy talk about their most intimate moments like that and somehow word got to me, oh, joe and mika loved it. thank god you have a sense of humor because, you know, some people don't.

so that's a very healthy sign. i don't think you need psycho analysis. >> i wouldn't say that we loved it, but we love you so that's -- and by the way, we just showed the picture, i want to put it back up. mika told me to make sure you see that meatball, who you named, is alive and well and spoiled and one of the -- >> well, that's a funny is story. we do this animal rescue. my wife is a huge -- we've had over 2,000 animals in our home that we've actually -- like joe and mika, that we've adopted out to people. and, yeah, we saw that meatball was outside. one of the things we say to our adopters, do not put your cat outside. the so she says to me, i love mika and joe. we've got to get word to them. they've got to bring meatball inside. i don't approve of that. let's call mika and joe and i will tell them for ten minutes

tell them on the phone privately how great their show is and wonderful they are which was sincere, and then i will drop in, bring meatball inside. so i buttered you two up for ten minutes, told you what brilliant broadcasters you are, how much i love "morning joe," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then i gave you the one, two punch -- >> boom. >> -- joe, meatball, what's outside? all of our adopters sign agreements and then they quickly hung up. that was the end of it. i got the word -- is meatball inside or not. that's what i want? >> howard, meatball is always inside. meatball when he was younger, he liked to escape. we put a tracker on him but, no, he's inside now. fat and happy. >> good. all right. >> he just wants treats and wants to hang out. mika wanted me to pass along to you -- in fact, i hear her screaming. mika wanted me to pass along to you that meatball's always

inside. so he is safe. now what we need to do -- >> mika -- yes. >> what we need to do, howard, is this, okay? we'll make a deal with you. we will keep meatball inside if you can make a commitment to willie and me that you will talk to your psychiatrist and we'll get you outside. how's that? >> listen, i am going to do that. and you can tell mika for me, you know, i was obsessed with mika's family way before you came into the picture. i was such a weird little kid. i'll tell you why i was obsessed. i was -- as a little kid i was obsessed with mika's father, who was a brilliant politician. the guy was a public servant, but as a kid i loved words. i loved "mad magazine" and they would say weird words like portzeby and be it meant

nothing. when i heard the name zbignew. i want to name a cat that but my wife won't let me. the man had a name that was zbi. zb. you can't have a name that has zb. zbignew was a big name to me. then i began to read everything about him and i became a big fan. then when i saw msnbc and mika on there, i went, oh, my god, she is from the loins of zbignew brzezinski. he was insanely great. >> it's fascinating you say that. the first line from the loins of zbignew brzezinski. she just handed me this picture of dr. brzezinski and appreciates you saying -- that's