nothing. when i heard the name zbignew. i want to name a cat that but my wife won't let me. the man had a name that was zbi. zb. you can't have a name that has zb. zbignew was a big name to me. then i began to read everything about him and i became a big fan. then when i saw msnbc and mika on there, i went, oh, my god, she is from the loins of zbignew brzezinski. he was insanely great. >> it's fascinating you say that. the first line from the loins of zbignew brzezinski. she just handed me this picture of dr. brzezinski and appreciates you saying -- that's mika as a little kid at the

white house. >> he was secretary of homeland security, am i correct? >> close enough. he was national security adviser. >> national security adviser. that's right. we didn't have a homeland secretary at that point, but that's kind of what he was. >> yeah. >> heavy duty job. she had a different childhood than i did and bruce springstein, i'll tell you that. >> i'll tell you what. she did. her father had u.s. foreign policy for four years. my dad coached little league. six to one, half dozen of the other. howard, again, we're at the top of the hour -- >> did your father talk to you, joe? was he a kind man? was he interested in you? >> it's so interesting what you were saying about -- about you have one parent who thinks you're the second coming of jesus christ and another -- my mom from -- from day one said, joe, he can be whatever he wants to be. he'll either be d.j. all-star shortstop or president of the united states and she

gave me that confidence. my dad -- my dad was tough. i don't think he was as tough as your dad but, you know, once in a while he would say, joe, you're a psycho. straighten up. but there was -- there was sort of that friction. the but he was a lovely man and supportive and older. he got -- the older i got the closer we got, but there definitely was a friction between my mom and my dad. now the thing is, being "steel magnolias," my mom ran the household. he wasn't allowed to take too many swipes, but that -- but you are so right. like i always tell people, that's the reason i was so driven, maybe prove something to my dad, and the reason why i believed i could do anything, like you said, because of my mom. and it's so fascinating you and bruce said basically the same

thing. >> yeah. the by the way, bruce looks terrific, doesn't he? >> oh, my god. >> really. i mean, looks really good. it's -- it's crazy. i said to him, how are you doing that? i mean, you should see my body now. man, i used to run. i can't do that yan more. i've got a flabby belly. i have breasts. i tonight know what's happening to me. i'm falling apart. willie's so damn good looking. look at this guy. >> he's great. >> your own hair. >> that's all real. so far so good. it's superficial but we all have the same thought. look at bruce, 73 years old. great shape. >> crazy. >> sounds good. he's incredible. >> i'm going to make you guys jealous. this is something i do. the this is a special effect you guys should get to the show. i can instantly go to deep voice. here i go. thank you for having me on the show. it was terrific. very terrific. see what i mean -- that's why i'm on serious xm.

look at the freedom i have. i can do this. guys, listen to me. everything is great. it's good to see you. yes, it is good to see you. the characters i can do. do you see what i have going on. this is in my basement. this is my basement that i'm doing this! i can do it all. >> just amazing. >> i can do led zeppelin. you see, this is what i am. the. >> in his basement. he has all that stuff. >> why would i leave? i have everything. i have everything. i have a printer. i have computers and i have special effects. with that i say -- thank you. anything else you guys need to know? >> that's it. >> i think you just covered everything. >> that's right. we covered -- what did we learn? we learned that mika's father was zbignew brzezinski. we learned joe might have a screwed up childhood. we'll have to explore. who knows what happened there? we've learned willie has all his

own hair. >> true. >> we mentioned hbo. we mentioned the big interview sunday night on hbo with bruce springstein and i even plugged sirius xm. i think i've done everything right. i can go upstairs guilt free. i did it all. >> i will say though since we're doing what we've learned, i must reveal to everybody your final searing question to one of the great identify dolls of rock history. last question, i don't know if you even know this, howard, it was, do you have an enlarged prostate? that was your last question to bruce. >> yeah. well, and you know i didn't get -- he says no. and i -- >> no. >> i think bruce was incredibly -- he did not go to the bathroom 2 1/2 hours. i assume every man around my age and older must have an enlarged prostate. why would god make a human

body -- joe, you're religious. you grew up in the catholic church. why would god -- if there is a god, why would he create something called an enlarged prostate. why would he torture us. you know the answer. share it with willie and let everyone know. >> i will let everyone know that. we have one final thing, howard, and then we'll let you go. >> yes. >> we should talk about why bruce came really quickly, and it's fascinafascinating, on you. he has a new album. i hate smartphones. i just hate them. i have to have them. i have to look at the news, but i hate them. people -- people when they thrust the phone at me i'm like, eh, no thank you. i don't want to see it. about two weeks ago mika came up to me and she goes, you've got to see this. i'm like, oh, don't do this to me. she said, you've got to see it. i play it and bruce is singing

"night shift." mika likes bruce. she's not a massive fan, but it's weird. that was a song that actually broke through and it's really great. >> yeah. well, it is interesting to ask guys like bruce what are your musical influences. we all ask that. if you get a chance to sit with these guys, like what forms you? in other words, you can't be bruce springstein without going back and looking at what he grew up listening to. and then his new album, of course, was just that. it is him sitting there saying these are the songs that affected me and molded me into the musician i am now. it's an interesting concept. >> yeah. it was all good. i mean, come on. bruce was talking much like you. i used to be obsessed with radio. i would listen -- you know -- but bruce would say he was obsessed with top 40 radio. you would think bruce springstein would have been obsessed with progressive radio,

wbcn in boston, these stations that played the new music. no, he was into top 40 radio. maybe that was what made him great. he knew the hits. he knew what turned people on, you know? >> i love that, too. the if it was on top 40, he immediately digested it and it became part of who he was. the howard stern interview, bruce springstein premiers this sunday on hbo and hbo max. howard stern, we cannot thank you enough. >> yes, thank you, howard. >> well, guys, thank you for having me on. thank you. you know i told you this, i watch you guys every morning. i really enjoy the show. oddly, i agree politically almost with everything joe says. i don't think there's much difference there, you know? so -- and by the way, i want to give a shout out to msnbc. thank god you don't play the old "datelines" on the weekend. i like news. i watch this channel exclusively

for news. i tune in on the weekend, i'm watching old "datelines." i like news 24/7 and now i find i'm getting it. i get simone on the weekend. big fan of her, simone coming on strong. what can i tell ya. i know the whole lineup. you know what i'm saying? >> you're the best, howard. >> thank you, howard. >> we love you, man. thank you so much. howard stearns. >> any time. bye-bye. thanks, guys. >> thanks. the. so, willie, a lot to digest there. >> that last topic was your fault. let's be real clear. you opened the door to the prostate discussion. >> i did, but that was his last question. >> i know. >> i'm sitting there, i'm listening. he goes, do you have an enlarged prostate. bruce goes, nah, nah, i'm good. but i want to end this discussion where we began. he's just such a massive fan. no cynicism.

no snarkiness. he's just such a huge bruce fan and that love comes out in the interview. it just makes it such a joyful occasion. >> it does. as i said to him, look, i grew up in new jersey. bruce springstein, just hearing those songs, the stories behind those songs be. "thunder road" is the anthem of high school, it's the anthem of driving down the parkway to go to the shore, to a friend's house in the summer, always in the background of our lives. to have the door open to those conversations and hear bruce talk about it on the one hand and on the other hand having grown up list jing to howard and to know how much that meant to him to finally get the bruce interview after all of these years and that journey of playing bruce's records in a little studio alone in hartford or wherever he was dejaing at the time and sit there and be a fan and be there for all of us who would love to have a chance to sit and talk to bruce sbring steen for 2 1/2 hours. he's done some great interviews,

howard has, and for my money that was the best and that's the reason they're putting it on hbo this weekend. >> no doubt about it. no doubt about it. >> we have crossed the top of the hour. 10 after 9 on the east coast. 10 after 6 out west. we begin unfortunately again this morning with another mass shooting in america. this time at a walmart in chesapeake, virginia. six people are dead plus the gunman. let's get right to the scene where nbc correspondent cal perry is standing by. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: hey, willie. good morning. we had a press conference just about an hour ago confirming that the gunman is according to the officials a, quote, disgruntled employee. he did work in the walmart behind me. they have not identified the shooter. they're waiting to identify next of kin. we know the shooter was a male and the gun he used was a handgun. the shooting took place just shortly after 10:15 p.m. authorities saying they made it into the walmart in less than 4 minutes but that the shooting at that point may have been over.

the belief at this point is that the shooter took his own life. this shooting coming just ten days, willie, after that shooting at the university of virginia that claimed three lives. so this is a state, an area of the state that is mourning once again. now officials are going to turn now their attention to the wider investigation. you can see the large parking lot behind me has been roped off. we've seen officials going through some of the vehicles in this parking lot. the search now will of course focus on motive. there are at least four people that remain in hospital as of this hour wounded from that shooting. they're witnesses. it will be key to this whole investigation. what they have to tell police will be key when it comes to the motive of the shooter, guys. >> cal, this happened about 45 minutes before the walmart closed a couple of days after thanksgiving. do we know how it stopped? it was a disgruntled employee, something we had heard and reported a little bit earlier. do we know anything else about

the circumstances why that employee was there and how the shooting ended? >> you know, we don't. we think the shooting ended when the shooter took his own life but we don't know if this disgruntled employee was on shift, if it was not his shift. if he came when it was not his shift. two days before thanksgiving. 45 minutes before closing. i think so many of our viewers will relate to the fact you go to walmart to get the last thing right before the holidays. that's what was happening here. it caused unbelievable chaos at the scene. one of the things the police had to do in the first hour was find people who were sheltered in place because that's what they were told to do and it took them some time to clear that scene, willie. >> nbc's cal perry live in chesapeake, virginia. much more information as we get it in to us. cal, thanks so much. to colorado now where the accused colorado nightclub shooter will make a court appearance from jail later today. the 22-year-old facing five counts of first degree murder and knife counts of bias

motivated crimes. let's bring in maura barrett live in colorado springs. maura, be what more can you tell us about the accused shooter here? >> reporter: good morning, willie. overnight we received some court filings from the suspect's defense attorney indicating the 22-year-old suspected shooter anderson lee aldrich identifies as nonbinary and utilizes pronounce they/them. that's interesting because it was an attack at an lgbt club. we haven't received any further information because we know they have been hesitant to cooperate with officials. we have learned overnight that one of the recent neighbors of the suspect spoke with the fbi, interviewed extensively for hours and he revealed the suspect had expressed hate to the lgbtq community. the suspect is not somebody he would bring around his own gay friends. we expect to see the suspect in court virtually for the first

time. the charges will be introduced. the district attorney laying out there might be additional charges introduced as well. they did emphasize even with those five murder charges equating to a life sentence without the opportunity for parole carrying the potential sentence, they do say they will pursue charges. they want to make dpleerp remembrance of the five victims that this kind of action is not tolerable. now as we wait for more details coming out of this virtual court appearance, survivors are recovering. there are people coming out of the hospital, recovering from their injuries and speaking out about their experience. i want to hear from anthony. he spoke outside the hospital. he's still recovering from several gunshot wounds. he was just 20 feet away standing and dancing inside the club when the shooter was in the club. he fell to the ground due to his injuries. all he could think of at the time was his husband jeremy. >> as i was laying there in the

club, i didn't know if i'd ever get to hug him again. i didn't know how extensive my wounds were. i didn't know what had happened to me and all i did is i called him and told him there was a shooting, i've been involved, i'm okay and i went to the hospital and he was there. and of course gave him a hug and, you know, it was just -- you have to count your blessings every day. >> i've met so many community members who frequent club q who are also counting their blessings, but also mourning because of those lost victims and a lot of confusion. a lot of sadness still in this community especially as we should note, some of the victims that passed away are not part of the lgbtq community. this is a space that was

welcoming and inclusive towards everyone. a lot of frustration and confusion about an act of hate in an open community here in conservative colorado springs. >> breaks your heart all over again to hear that witness talk about what he saw in the room that night. mc's maura barrett live in colorado springs. thanks so much. to some news around former president donald trump now. the supreme court has cleared the way for house democrats finally to access donald trump's tax returns. the former president has fought for years to shield those records from the house ways and means community. there were no dissending votes. they've been seeking trump's tax documents before they take over the house in january. let's bring in ken delaney and adrian elrod. the reverend al sharpton are

with us. if you can walk us through the ruling and what it means for the former president. >> good morning, willie. this is the final stage. the courts at every level had affirmed the right of the house ways and means committee to obtain the tax records back to the law that dates back to the nixon administration in which the house ways and means committee can request tax records from the irs. when they did that under the trump administration, the trump treasury department refused to turn them over. as soon as biden took office there was a justice department opinion that said, yes, indeed, these tax returns can be turned over. trump sued and tried to block it. every level of course has ruled in favor of turning over the tax returns and now finally the supreme court heavily influenced by donald trump appointees has affirmed that are, blocked trump's attempt to stop this with no discents. not clarence thomas, not anybody. so -- but now the thing is, there's only weeks left with the

democrats in power so presumably the biden administration is preparing to hand over these five years of tax returns to the house ways and means committee. and then the question is, what exactly are they going to do with them in the remaining time left? you know, just because they're in the minority doesn't mean they have to give them up, but they have no ability to legislate. they can hold democrat only hearings. they perhaps could turn them over to the senate democratic majority where ron widen probably would be interested in them. a lot of open questions here. the bottom line is the house democrats will obtain five years of donald trump's tax returns. >> and there's no running out the clock, is there, ken? i mean, even though they don't have much time left, they're going to get them and what is your best -- what's your best reporting or best guess on whether they can turn it over to the senate democrats? >> i don't really have any reporting on that, joe.

there's really been nothing said. i mean, as far as i understand under the law, there are rules with the committee about how they can -- what exactly they have to do with these documents, they have to keep them confidential. obviously they can't be make them public, but can they turn them over to senate democrats? is there a possible subpoena process? that remains to be seen. we know just yesterday donald trump's accountant testified at the trial of the trump corporation that trump posted massive losses on his tax returns for many years in a row. the so there's a lot of interesting things that the democrats want to look at here, potential conflicts of interest, questionable tax practices, foreign sources of income. really important issues that now they'll get a look at exploring. >> jonathan, this has been an ongoing fight. donald trump has been pushing back against this since he first got on the national stage politically in 2015. talk about -- talk about the

long, tortured journey and where it may end? >> yeah. we should first of all underscore, every president, every presidential candidate turned over their tax returns. donald trump defied that tradition one that's been around for decades. it's been a quest since for democrats and many members of the public to want to get a look at these and see what are his sources of income? what kind of losses did he claim? are there foreign entities? was he giving money to charity? frankly, is he as rich as he claims to be. all of the above and trump has tried to shield it. perhaps for reasons of embarrassment, perhaps for reasons he wanted to obscure something that would not look good, that would catch the eye of investigators. it has been years in the making and the democrats are as close as they can. the courts -- trump has tried every appeal under the sun. the courts have bought him some time, but it does seem like that time is running out here even though the democrats are only going to have control of the house for five, six weeks.

once they've got the tax returns they don't have to give them up. this is something we will have with trump back in the spotlight having already declared his candidacy for 2024. this issue will be revived. look for it, i'm told, to potentially play a role in some of the ongoing investigations, which there are many, in to the former president. >> so, adrian, i'm wondering what the democrats hope to get first from the trump tax returns, and also as we're talking about the difference between the house and the senate, i'm wondering if senate democrats may be willing to pick up some of the work of the january 6th commission, pick up some of the work of some of the other house investigations that -- noor whether it's trump's tax returns, whether it's january 6th. some of these other things that they will not be able to do in the minority. >> yeah, joe. certainly if we win that georgia runoff seat it's going to make it even that much easier for them to pick up that the house can't do and the senate will

have the extra seat. look, i worked on hillary clinton's campaign. we were stunned, i guess maybe in retrospect we shouldn't have been stunned, but given the fact donald trump did not release his tax returns initially in 2016. it's surprising to us and now it's not and here we are seven years later and it looks like it's finally going to happen. i think democrats are going to look at a couple of things. i think ken layed this out. we're going to look at conflicts of interest. the whether or not he actually paid his fair share of taxes. my guess is he probably didn't. i think a lot of people are curious to know what his actual wealth is. le that's the big question mark. if he's as rich as he says he is. now it's all going to finally come to light. i think it's also interesting, joe, that donald trump had the chance to pick three supreme court justices during his first term, his only term in the presidency on the supreme court and i think he thought all along the supreme court will do whatever he wants them to do when it comes to his own

personal life and even though the supreme court has ruled antti they the particularly on a lot of issues to the american people, when it comes to donald trump and issues like his tax returns, they've actually ruled disfavorably toward him. it's going to be interesting to see what finally comes out. and, you know, even though the democrats will have the minority in the house going forward, there is still a lot of work they can do from a committee perspective in terms of what's really in these terms. >> rev, donald trump's understanding of the judiciary, if i appointed you, you work for me. he's finding out that's not the case. the supreme court and the 11th circuit court of appeals hasn't made a ruling but signaling they're going to end the special master review and get things moving again on the mar-a-lago case. >> absolutely. i think, you know, in the first hour of the day we talked about how trump lives in his own alternative universe thinking that everybody has to deal with the way he operates rather than

he has to be under the law. i think this is a wake-up call that you live in the world under laws the same way we do in the united states. and it's coming at a very inopportune time. you have the special counsel now appointed. you have the manhattan da now saying they're looking into some new things and we thought he was finished with the manhattan da and you have him announcing he's running for president at a time when the republicans are openly, major republicans, some former supporters saying he should run. for him now to be revealed as having misled the public to his wealth or taking some unethical and unfair tax breaks and all, it does not come at the same climate that he had a few years ago when he said i'm not revealing my taxes. he's in the worst of his public standing in the last four or five years with his own crowd and this could be the icing on the cake. >> of course, he and his supporters already just in the

last few hours painting him as a victim here. the irs coming after him, the justice department. we'll see if that works. >> hard to be a victim when you looking at your own tax returns that you signed unless you say you victimized yourself, and i think donald trump is many things, is a disstick is -- well, mass so he kiss particular is not one of them. >> joe in. >> not one of them. hey, rev, howard brought you up, talked about when you james brown, the god father of soul, went in to the studio. what do you remember about it? >> well, i mean, james brown was a big fan of howard stern and howard stern had invited both of us to come. and i remember because james brown was very formal with him and howard kept trying to prod him and his way of talking about what happened when james went to jail, this, that and the other and he finally got james brown to get up and do a little song

and he was very respectful of him, but i must say even though howard's crowd at that time, his listening audience was not the kind of crowd that loved al sharpton in new york, howard always was very open to me when i was stabbed leading a march. he came out to the hospital to see me. howard was always a very decent guy. he grew up in roosevelt long island which was a mostly black city in long island. so he knew what james brown was about and i think he understood what i was about. i always had a real friendship in my mind with howard stern. >> he mentioned you on the air. so much fun to talk to howard. thanks so much. happy thanksgiving to both of you. see you soon. coming up on "morning joe," we'll dig into the impact of rising prices. the ceo of the great stu

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welcome back to "morning joe." 9:31 in the morning here in new york city. the scaffolding is coming down off the famous rockefeller christmas tree. the tree lighting one week from tonight. well, your thanksgiving feast tomorrow going to cost a lot more this year. a new survey from farm bureau reveals classic thanksgiving dinner will cost 64.05. that averages to $6.50 per person. that's a 20% increase from last year's average. joining us now, stu leonard jr., the ceo of the world's largest dairyleonards. stu, it's great to have you back on this year. i think i've told you i'm a danbury stu leonard's guy.

it's more than shopping for groceries much it's an experience, man. it's so great. we love it there. tell us how you're looking forward to the holidays here? >> first of all, ask for me next time you're in the store. i'd love to say hi to you. >> great. i'll find you. >> one thing we're finding right now. this is going to be our best thanksgiving we've had in the history of stu leonards right now. people are starting to come out. we're noticing the larger size turkeys are selling faster. when you looked at the numbers that were up on the screen there, $6 and change per person for a meal isn't that expensive. think about when you go out to a restaurant how much it costs. it's the most inexpensive meal of the year. i mean, we're getting into the christmas holidays and coming up. it's going to be more rib roasts, prime rib, fillet

mignon. customers aren't be alarmed. prices have gone up. our farmers have all charged us, you know, roughly anywhere from 5 to 10% more to get their product to stu lep nards. >> even that 6:50 that you're talking about there, this can be a difficult time. there's food insecurity everywhere in this country. what are you all doing to help with that? >> well, you know, that's a good question. we had a big turkey brigade. we're giving out 50,000 free meals to a lot of the needy and homeless. and also we've given all our people -- we have over 2,000 people at stu leonards, we gave all of them a free turkey for the holidays. what i want to do when i take my bite of turkey on thanksgiving day, i want to say a special bit of thanks for the people we're able to feed that are less fortunate. >> hey, stew, good morning.

there have been times this year where the supply chain crisis was felt in grocery stores. empty shelves. people couldn't find certain products. give us an update now. have things improved, though prices are still up, things are costing more, but are consumers able to find the items they want or get their shelves stocked again? >> well, one thing is keeping the shelves full. we're keeping them full. maybe we don't have exactly the brand that you want, like cream cheese is tough to get right now. philadelphia cream cheese so you have to get another. cabot, for instance, makes it. you might not find the brand you want, but our shelves are going to be full. just like they were during the pandemic. >> stew leonard jr., appreciate all the good work you guys do there. if you think i was just off the cuff saying it's like an experience at a theme park, "the new york times" calls it the disneyland of dairy stores. it really is like walking into a

theme park. happy thanksgiving, stew, to you and your family. >> thank you, willie. >> appreciate it. the. still ahead, the latest on bob iger's return to disney for his second stint as ceo and the tough decisions he has to face in his return. we're right back on "morning joe." i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site,

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what a beautiful shot of l.a. so, some business out of l.a. disney ceo bob iger making some moves. yesterday the chief executive sent a memo saying he's reorganizing the company to put more decision making power back in the hands of the creative teams. this comes as analysts say iger faces a bigger challenge on choosing which disney assets should be sold off or spun off in the coming years, like espn or hulu raising questions on how disney's ceo shakeup could impact the future of streaming platforms. let's bring in cnbc founder and newsweek editor at large tom

rogers. i think you agree with me on this point, even if iger were there, i don't care hofs there, right? the greatest ceo ever, they all would have been blindsided by the collapse of the netflix model. i mean, the streaming model that everybody was betting on for years, except i will say comcast, that everybody was throwing big money in for years just collapsed. so i'm wondering, was this move -- was it a little early? was it unfair? >> well, it's a great question, joe, because since iger's left, the traditional broadcast and cable business has gotten a lot tougher. the that side of the business is not getting easier, but as you say, the streaming model, which disney first came out of the box with disney+, really, really strong showing all kinds of subscriber growth. it had the market really

excited. all that's cooled off and streaming does not look like the panacea for the traditional media companies that it once did. the so they're kind of caught. it's not as if the traditional media business is one they can easily put more resources into and hope it's going to be rekindled and yet the streaming business has turned into a much tougher business than they originally thought for everybody with maybe the exception of netflix, which has already reached profitability. its business has slowed but it's way ahead of everybody else. >> in disney, they've got great properties. they've got "star wars." they've got the avengers. they've got massive, massive properties for streaming. they've got a great streaming brand but, again, if the overall model is not proving to be as resilient as people thought even six months ago, what can bob iger do -- i know, again, i know how great iger is as a ceo, how

great he was as a ceo but he can't change the economic realities facing disney right now, can he? >> well, you're pointing to the big dilemma here because the first rule that everybody followed was just get subscribers, grow the number of subscribers and you'll be fine. and then it became clear growing subscribers doesn't handle the issue of profitability and the market is looking, as you said, for a model which shows how streaming's profitable and disney in the last 12 months has lost more on streaming than any of the traditional media competitors, which is what really led to the ouster of bob chapek and for bob iger to bring magic back to the magic kingdom. he's been tremendously successful but he's admitted the traditional business is going to be pushed off a precipice, his

exact words. he doesn't know when, but it's going to happen. so they've got to figure out the streaming model. they do have great content. they haven't been able since the mandelorean when disney+ first came out to really have something that lit up the cultural light geist and had the buzz about it that many netflix shows have had since then and the promise of iger is his focus on content, bringing content people back into positions of real authority within the company to hopefully create a content focus that lights up marvel franchise and the "star wars" franchise. the problem with that is, the more they put out with those key franchises, the less special any particular piece of content becomes in terms of motion pictures, having the kind of box office success they've had in the past.

they're caught. the more they push out stuff on these franchises that have been successful in the past, the less special any one piece. >> well, i mean, let me give you an example. i've heard nothing but the highest praise for andor. it may be the best disney series anybody has seen. it's certainly in line with "mandelorean." when that came online it was a phenomenon. everybody had to get disney+ but, again, there is so much content out there. they put out something like "andor" and before that "kenobi," it's not capturing the zeitgeist. where do you go if you've invested so much in streaming? >> well, that issue of engaging viewers they've got to figure out better.

disney+ probably only has about 25% of the engagement of the viewership hours that netflix does and engagement is what leads to a better business model because the more time people spend, the more you can raise price which all these services are going to have to do ultimately to be truly successful. the more you're able to get engagement, the less churn you have. it's a whole lot easier to turn off a streaming service when you're done with a series than it is too disconnect your cable service. and so churn is a big problem for these services. so the iger promise is the greater focus on content will hopefully breathe new life into the amount of time people are spending with the service. in the meantime, got to figure out what he does with espn. he's got to figure out what he does with hulu. these are huge strategic issues for disney and there's no great answer to any of them.

do you get smaller and just focus on a kids and family franchise and so-called disney flywheel around the beloved disney characters? or do you go broad and general entertainment the way netflix does? and both paths have down sides to them so it's very unclear how iger will come in and kind of settle out what the path will be. >> we shall see. tom rogers, thanks for being on with us. we appreciate it. have a great thanksgiving. coming up this morning before thanksgiving, a conversation about forgiveness with "new york times" best selling author timothy keller. we'll be right back.

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talk to her ever again. i will never be able to told her again. but i forgive you and have mercy on your soul. you hurt me. you hurt a lot of people. i forgive you. god forgives you. >> families of those killed in the charleston church shooting, giving the shooter and the nation a lesson in the healing power of forgiveness and grace. it was a remarkable moment. let's bring in the founding pastor of the redeemer church in new york city, tim keller. his latest book is titled "forgive". it's great to see you. thank you so much. talk about -- jesus talks,

obviously, about forgiving those who would do us harm, for those who persecute us. talk about why it's so important for us to forgive. >> well, you really can't have a relationship without forgiveness. you can't have a marriage. you can't have a friendship. and you really can't even have a society. there was a book called "no future without forgiveness" and he was basically saying that you have endless cycles of retaliations between endless classes and groups unless you learn to forgive. i'm not sure we can have a human community without forgiveness. >> it raises a question of how do you do it without allowing people to continue to walk over you. i think about how jesus uses the word "meek," and for jesus, meek does not mean weak. it's actually a strength. you actually talk about balancing these things.

how do you save your humanity while forgiving others? >> well, first of all, forgiveness is not the opposite of doing justice. you can do them both. so, for example -- in fact, i would say, unless you forgive the person that's wronged you, you actually won't seek justice. you'll actually seek vengeance. and they're not the same thing. it goes beyond justice. it overshoots. vengeance is consuming you in hate. if i forgive on the inside and then go pursue justice and seek to make sure that for -- for the sake of justice, for the sake of the human community, for the sake of human victims on pursuing justice, that means i'm doing it for other sake. vengeance is done for my sake. i just want that person to suffer. in order to forgive, i basically have to say, i am not going to take vengeance. and i'm not going to keep bringing it up to myself over and over again so i'm consumed

by it. forgiveness is granted before it's felt. >> so you talk about forgiveness being an essential skill. and you were just talking about some of the ways to do it. for those who are having a hard time, that are watching right now, and we're going into thanksgiving. sometimes thanksgiving dinners can be difficult for some family members, maybe there's a family member who really hurts, somebody who is watching right now. what's the first step to forgiveness, do you think? >> a yale theologian wrote a book called "exclusion and embrace", and he was -- he's croatian. he was talking about how you deal with all the atrocities in the balkans. but he says, forgiveness flounders when i exclude the enemy from the community of human and i exclude myself from

the community of sinners. what he's saying is, first of all, remember that you need forgiveness. you do not live up to your ideals. you've got to remember that first because unless you realize you live by forgiveness -- >> looks like we lost tim. we'll be trying to reconnect with him. rev, that is so important, what tim was talking about. we can forgive others when we realize that we are ourselves are sinners and that's when jesus said blessed are the merciful because they shall be shown mercy. and jesus says the measure by which you -- by how you measure others, that measure will be used against you by god. so if you forgive others, god will forgive you. >> and it's the most powerful way to really tell yourself who you are. you know, i've said to you in private, but i'll say it publicly, when i was leading

some marches in brooklyn, a young black teenager was killed by a white mob in 1991, and the mob -- white neighbors would come out and call us the n-word and throw things at us. one saturday, one of the marchers, a white guy, michael, stabbed me, and i went to court after he was indicted and prosecuted. i went to court and forgave him. and i later visited him in jail. and i never will forget, he looked at me and he says, i don't believe you came to see me and i tried to kill you. luckily it wasn't a wound that was that bad. though i still have the surgical scar. i told him, i didn't come to see you to forgive you for you. i came to forgive you to know who i am, to know that i am really practice what i preach. that's when i started growing with mrs. king's conversations

and stuff that i shared with you. i think forgiveness gives you a mirror into who you are more than it does for anybody else. >> that's well said. we have pastor tim keller back with us now. there are certainly scales of this. we came into the segment with just that extraordinary moment of the families -- in charleston, forgiving the man who had slaughtered a group of people as they were at a prayer meeting in charleston. and then there are the small everyday acts of forgiveness. you have a fight with somebody, somebody says something that maybe they regret. how do you push your pride to the side sometimes and say, i forgive you. let's move on? >> i believe you can do it at -- you might say the secular level and the secular level is, i need forgiveness myself and i also care about the human community. therefore, i'm going to forgive, for the sake of other people and i'm going to do it because actually i owe it to others

since i need to be forgiven too. i think that the african american people who are forgiving the shooter were christians. and what they do every single sunday is they take into the center of their heart through singing and through worship and preaching a man who died for his enemies, a man who died saying father forgive him. if you have that in the center of your life, then you've got a resource that is like no other. >> as we go into thanksgiving, tim, what are you thankful for? what should we be thankful for? >> well, as you know, almost three years ago i was -- they spotted my stage four pancreatic cancer. i'm very grateful. i'm grateful to god that i'm still here. i'm grateful to the doctors, but especially grateful to a great set of doctors down at the national institutes of health and i'm very grateful to all of them and my thanks goes out to

all those parties right now. >> all right. tim keller, thank you. it's great having you here. the book is "forgive: why should i and how can i". please come back very soon. thank you very much. happy thanksgiving. final thoughts on an extraordinary moment. >> i'm thankful for my own family, all of whom i get to see tomorrow because we live close together, my parents, my in-laws, sister and her family and i'm thankful for my morning joe family where we get to sit with our friends and audience and open the door to an interview like the one we did with howard stern. >> mika and i are thankful for you and alex and tj, dan, everybody in our "morning joe" family. so grateful. we talked about our moms and dads. grateful for m