click, call or visit a store today. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. there have been 607 mass

shootings in our country this year so far. that's according to one count that arches out to well more than one a day. and while the circumstances of each shooting are different and uniquely tragic, we as americans can now only arrive at one inescapable conclusion. there is no space, there is no place in the country that is safe from the scourge of gun violence. last night, chesapeake, virginia, became the latest community to be ravaged by what has become an epidemic of gun violence. a gunman armed with a pistol opened fire at a walmart, killing six people before killing himself. officials say the shooter was an employee at that store. four other people were taken to local hospitals. the shooting took place during a traditionally busy holiday week. "washington post" reports on an eyewitness account, quote, she was in the store's break room when the gunman, whom she identified as the manager in a facebook post, walked in and shot three of her colleagues.

many walmart employees who were at the store when the shooshoot unfolded belonged to the overnight stocking team. quote, we're really good friends, she told "the washington post" in a phone interview. we're family. because you spend most of the night together. what happened last night was awful to see. the mass shooting in chesapeake is the second high profile mass shooting in this country this week. it comes just days after a gunman killed five people at a gay club in colorado springs. but it is not even the first mass shooting to take place in the state of virginia this month. ten days ago, three university of virginia students, all members of the football team there, were shot dead by a former player. "new york times" puts it this way, quote, mass shootings in the u.s. this year have come at a pace so fast that one community has barely started mourning the losses before another takes place. a statement from president joe biden acknowledging this relentless tide of gun violence in america, reads in part, quote, tomorrow is thanksgiving,

one of our most cherished holidays that brings us together as americans and as families. when we hug our loved ones and count our blessings. but because of yet another horrific and senseless act of violence, there are now even more tables across the country that will have empty seats this thanksgiving. there are now more families who know the worst kind of loss and pain imaginable. this year, i signed the most significant gun reform in a generation, but that is not nearly enough. we must take greater action. and that is where we begin today. nbc news correspondent cal perry joins us from chesapeake, virginia. also joining us, chris brown, president of united against gun violence. barbara mcquade is here, former u.s. attorney, now a law professor at the university of michigan. as well as an msnbc contributor. and former republican congressman and msnbc political analyst david jolley is here. cal, there is nothing -- there is no sameness to the tragedy that the families of the victims woke up to today. there is -- there is fresh,

unimaginable horror. but the act, the news of a mass shooting lights up most of our phones in the mornings with such a clip that it is almost predictable. tell me about the shooting, tell me about these victims and tell me about this community. >> and the victims whose lives will forever be different. i interviewed a witness who was in that break room when the gunman came in and she described him laughing, kind of my nigh cli laughing and executing people in front of heifer. and she has no idea why she let her go, but her life is going to be forever different. i don't know how she's going to get on. i really don't. and you have the families of six people who are not going to be around for thanksgiving. police are searching for a motive, we believe that this was a disgruntled employee, this is somebody who worked at walmart. and so what they're trying to do when they look at the victims

and those what were killed is to try to determine if they were employees. that's clearly the thread that they're pulling on. the bigger thread here is to your point, which is, i don't know many reporters who are surprised when their phones rang at 1:00 in the morning. and then i witnessed the most amazing thing here this morning, there was a scare at a nearby target, a number of police cars swarmed a nearby target because there were reports that there may have been an active shooter. one of the things we've been trying to figure out all day, what do people do if they see somebody with a gun? this is an open carry state. so, we have seen today people walking with their guns out in public, past our live location here and so you have a community that is on edge. and it makes me wonder as a reporter if you are worried, if you are scared of somebody with a gun and you call police, is there anything that can be done? walmart, for its part, discourages people that shop and its employees from bringing gubs into walmart. but again, where i am in

virginia, this is an open carry state, and so, it is a reality that people here live with every day, nicolle. >> cal, you talked about one of the victims who was -- who escaped with her life, i want to play -- i want to play the sound of briana tyler, i'm not sure if it's the same one, but let's listen to briana. >> we all gather in the break room, to just figure out what department we're going to be in, what section we're going to be working in, basically, and basically as soon as my team lead said, all right, guys, we have a light night tonight, i looked up and my manager just opened the door and he just opened fire. he wasn't aiming at anybody specifically, he was -- yeah, just literally just started shooting throughout the entire break room and i watched multiple people just drop down to the floor, whether they were trying to duck for cover or they were hit. he just opened fire. he looked directly at me, but he missed my head by, like, an inch or two.

>> so, this is just someone who went to work on the night shift and that was her night last night. cal, it's a time when a lot of people are probably thinking about heading into stores like walmart to do their shopping and now it is like a grocery store in buffalo, like an elementary school in uvalde, like an elementary school in newtown, like a high school in columbine, it is the sight of another mass shooting. what is the community reaction? >> and look at where i am now, right? on the outer edge of the walmart sparking lot. i feel like it's something that we've all done, where we park at the edge of a walmart parking lot and we run in before the store closes to try to get those last few things, whether it's before the holiday or not. and that's what people were doing here, at 10:45. it was 45 minutes before closing. you had a shift change, a shift coming in that was going to do the overnight stocking and you had people on their way out the door and you had that rush of last-minute shopping. the other thing that happened was, so many of those who were

hit by gunfire were employees. so, the woman that i interviewed said, she was scared to death, she thought that she was going to be killed, but she stayed behind to tend to one of the wounded, a woman who died in front of her. she said she didn't -- she didn't want to leave her side. she didn't know what to do. and then this woman dies and then she just ran. so, you have this impossible scene that people are confronted by when it's their colleagues who are bleeding in front of them and they don't know why it is they survived, they don't know the motive. and they're left with this tragedy, all the while i think the backdrop that you provide is the right one, which is, tomorrow's thanksgiving. and then friday is black friday. and so many people are planning to head out to stores and this is definitely going to overhang all of it, nicolle. >> cal, is there anything else you can tell me about what the community's doing to support the victims or their families or anything walmart is doing? this is their work force. >> yeah, so, walmart has put out a statement saying they're going to do everything they can to

support these families. i think we're going to have to wait now until we've identified the victims and wait for officials to say whether or not they were employees, because that will then lead to a possible motive. i don't think the town wants to get in front of that. i will say, though, and we say this so afternoon, this is a town on edge and we throw those sayings around. this is truly a town, i think, that has a lot of fear in it, because walmart is such a central location. it is in every town. and people here are a little bit unnerved and you hear a lot of talk about possible copy cat attacks, that's something here, i think, nicolle, that people are very afraid of. >> yeah, i think when it's a school, all the schools are on lockdown, when it's a workplace, everyone is extra jittery. and whenwalmart, shoppers and workers are extra jittery. cal perry, thank you for starting us off today, my friend. chris brown, take me inside

where things stand. we are not unique in having people who become disgruntled in the workplace, but we are unique in that any disgruntled anybody over anything can get a gun and easily act on their instability or rage. where are we, are we at a crossroads? are we at the end of the beginning, are we at the beginning of doing something different or is this the way it is? >> well, i'm really glad to see my friend david jolley, who i talked with many times when he was a member of congress about just this issue, whose voice is honestly really important at this moment in time. we are at one inflection point. look, we have achieved a ton as the gun violence prevention movement to save lives. we have 19 states and the district of columbia that have passed really meaningful laws. we just passed -- it didn't

happen in 30 years, but it did happen under joe biden's watch, the bipartisan safer communities act, and i don't want to take away from how horrible these incidents are, and we've had three public ones, many more than that that we're not talking about, to be honest, that have gripped our consciousness, but the things we've done matter. what we have to focus on, looking at this particular incident and colorado springs and uva, which is just a little more than a week ago, is what are the right combination of factors that we could bring to bear that could actually save lives? and i'll offer two, because they're before the senate in the lame duck, nicolle, and i'd love to hear other people talk about this. one is, expanding the brady background check system, it's

crazy that it's not expanded across all states, but half of states let people buy guns online who are felons and purchase them in whatever category, however they want. we need to close that loophole. it's killing people every day. maybe not here, but at the 600 mass shootings that are among what we hear about, there are many people who died there. the second is, let's end sales of assault weapons in america. the house of representatives passed a bill that's pending before the senate. this senate now, before january, early january, could actually take up that bill. and i would call on leader schumer to do that. we must have that happen. joe biden said he would sign that. and this isn't easy.

i understand all of that. it is complicated. but if you look across america, there are people reeling from this horrible shooting, from the one we had a few days ago in colorado springs, from uva, and the many before that. they don't know as they're approaching thanksgiving, neither do i, as i shop for my daughters and my step-sons, where am i safe? and we can't actually think about ourselves as a country that are the land of the free and home of the brave if we don't solve this. the solutions are before us and we've got to take it up. >> i mean, david jolley, none of those things should be polarizing or politically difficult votes. they have 85% approval or higher on background checks, assault weapons ban is upwards of 67%, i think, approval rating.

none of them are polarizing. but no one thinks any of them will happen in a republican-controlled house. and my question for you is, it's perverse, and what is so clear is that -- i mean, who feels safe and where? not in your house of worship, not in your grocery store, not in your elementary school. and you keep thinking that something breaks the fever of absolute bat bleep lunacy, like, oh, an elementary school was shot up, surely something will change. nothing ever changes. what is the perversion on the right to doing any of these things? >> well, the raw politics of it, nicolle, is those numbers of 80% to 85% don't translate to a closed primary in a republican gerrymandered district where only 10% of your most ardent voters express their wishes. and you're seeing members of congress respond to that. part of it is responding to in inessential incentives, but that

is giving republican politicians too much credit, as if that's an excuse, because it's not. the failure to address gun violence in america is one of the greatest shames in modern american culture, without question. and you can say that part of it is needing to change hearts and minds, that's true. everybody can have an opinion on that. but we also know one truism in all of this is, we have a failure of federal gun policy in the united states. that continues to result in the tragedies we see. and so, the raw politics of it are, one party is trying to do something about it and the other is not. and we just have to be honest about that. it's never too soon to talk about political accountability. and i appreciate kris's kind words. our meeting actually began in an adversarial way, as a republican who had bought into much of the republican dogma. i started to test the theory in politics, nicolle, that, is it okay to change your mind? i think we all have to ask ourselves that.

is it okay to change your mind in politics? and that led to a meeting with kris over the universal background check bill and not only did i join with democrats in the more mod rat background check, if you will, i became the only republican to sign onto the more aggressive, i think more aggressive than even some democrats wanted to go, background bill, because kris and i established a relationship on this very question. how do we crush the culture of guns on demand in the united states that is resulting in the tragedy and loss of lives? it is a shameful moment in modern american culture every time we see the news like we saw last night. >> and barbara, it's so far out of the mainstream. most legal gun owners have to go -- jump through all sorts of hoops to obtain a permit, to purchase ammunition. i mean, we're talking about such an extreme policy that thinks people with felonies on their record, people with domestic violence in their record, people with no record at all, should be able to get their hands on weapons of war. is there a more forceful role

for law enforcement to play in saying, hey, we're not safe with all these guns out there. >> your law enforcement, point, nicolle, is a very good one. if you were to talk to police officers who care about public safety and their own lives, they do not favor having assault weapons in the hands of order say citizens. assault weapons are created for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that's to kill other people. on the battlefield. they have a purpose, on our streets, they can only create death. and so, for that reason, i think supporting an assault weapons ban is a really important step to reducing gun violence. now, why can't we get it done when so many americans support it? i think it is because of this tribal nature we have in politics, where it is a signal that you are a member of the tribe if you support not just gun rights, not just the right to carry a handgun, to defend one's self, one's home, to carry the most aggressive looking gun you can find. think about the members of congress who pose with all their

children and family members on their holiday cards showing off their assault weapons. it's a way to pose that they're a member of the far right tribe. and i think we need to crack past that so that people are talking rationally about policy and not so much about signaling their virtue to members of their own tribe. >> yeah, kris, i think that's lauren bow bert, who did that, it's an aboabomination, this ph of really small kids holding weapons of war in a holiday card, it's not as pretty a holiday scene as what david jolry's in front of, but it is just this incredible signaling of a culture that celebrates these unbelievable weapons in the hands of small children. how do you beat back that kind of culture? kris? >> oh, sorry. well, a number of ways. look, ultimately, if you look at the polling across this country,

we have huge unanimity around the solution. it's not actually controversial, right? 94% of americans support expanded brady background checks. over 80% of americans think that things like extreme risk laws, those laws that remove guns from dangerous people, should happen. and more than a majority believe that we should remove assault weapons from those who -- from everyone. what we haven't really focused on and your question really gets at, nicolle, which i think is quite important is, what is the role of influencers in creating an environment where they are potentially inciting others to violence? and we see this, i think that's part of the question that you're asking. and among the mass shootings

that we've experienced, let's think about this. uva, which is two hours from my home, and i have parents who were texting me, whose kids were in lackdown for 24 hours, my daughter was going to go there, she's not there, she was going to be a freshman. that is terrifying. and we have amazing people who lost their lives. colorado springs, and now we have this horrible situation at walmart. what people want to know is, how and where are we safe? and i think we have to ask ourselves, as americans, who care about living in a democracy, who care about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that should include being grocery shopping at a walmart before thanksgiving and not being shot. it should involve going to a club. it should involve being on a bus for a school trip. what kind of world do we want? and the answer to that

unanimously across this country is, basic public safety measures. the only people standing in the way are those be-holden to the gun industry. but they're not doing the service of their constituents. they are doing the service of the gun industry. david jolly, as a champion, and i'm not trying just to curry favor, but he's one of the few, knows that well. and we need more people like him who stand up, who do the right thing, and in public service, actually really decide they're standing up for our safety, because we are at an inflection point. and it's -- the safety, not just for -- this is not theoretical. it's about our kids. they're afraid. are we going to stand up for them? are we going to stand up for our

safety? and just say, well, everyone needs to be in flak jackets and holding guns? because that is the version of america the national rifle association wants. i don't think that's what any of us want. that's where we are. >> it's unbelievable. i mean, that is the answer to my first question, where are we, that's exactly where we are. it's just stunning. kris brown, thank you so much for being part of our conversation today. barbara and david, stick around with us. when we come back, the colorado mass shooting suspect is in court for the first time via video. charges still have not been formally issued. a live report on that mass shooting is next for us. plus, america's top diplomat is in qatar for world cup soccer, as those games draw attention to a host nation with extremely controversial policies toward migrant labor and lgbtq issues. we'll talk about all of it,

including protests from players, fans, and journalists. and later in our program, breaking news. the justice department is looking to talk to one of the key figures an intended victims in the january 6th insurrection. vice president mike pence himself. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. looking good starts in the dryer with bounce pet. i promise - as an independent advisor - to put the financial well-being of you and your family first. i promise to serve, not sell. i promise our relationship will be one of partnership and trust. i am a fiduciary, not just some of the time, but all of the time. charles schwab is proud to support the independent financial advisors who are passionately dedicated to helping people achieve their financial goals. visit findyourindependentadvisor.com

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today's hearing, lawyers say the suspect identifies as nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns. preliminary charges include five counts of first degree murder and five counts of a biased motivated crime. also known as a hate crime. joining us from colorado springs, steve patterson. steve, take me through the many layers, both the status of the alleged shooter, as well as the community that is reeling and the families of the victims. >> well, we'll start with the shooter and the hearing being the most pertinent thing. it was a very brief cursory advisory hearing, essentially. the sole purpose meant to inform the suspect and make sure the suspect knew their rights, knew the facts of the case. but i think what we learned, you know, a lot of today is visual, was, you know, just how battered this suspect was. really lined up with the accounts that we heard in that club, people taking heroic action to take down the suspect, really pummeling the suspect.

you can see visibly swollen face, markings on the face, kind of slumped over during that video link in court. but meanwhile, just learning more about the suspect, of course. one of the biggest bombshells was the one that you just mentioned, in the filing for this hearing, the defense attorneys listed the suspect as nonbinary, saying that they use the they/them pronounces. but then you have the accounts we've been hearing on the ground, that this was a very hateful person towards the lgbtq community. the district attorney was asked about that, could this be a possible defense strategy, how will this play into the possibility of those additional hate crime charges. they say they're just essentially at this point looking into the facts of the case. meanwhile, this community is in complete mourning. i mean, you see the growing memorial behind me. people have been in tears every hour on the hour since we've been on the ground here. i've been speaking to the families of some of the victims here. one, raymond green vance, just a

tragic situation in which the mother tells me that she expects her son to still walk through basically every door to every room that she's in. the shock hasn't settled in yet. i spoke to the hero in this case, richard fierro, the 15-year army veteran, took down the suspect. not only did he do that, though, what's underreported is that he led the triage effort in that club until police arrived, so -- you know, incredible spirit from this community, but one that is certainly wounded. but one that people here say will heal. nicolle? >> steve, does the shooter's background and alleged violence toward their mother, is there anymore information about that? >> yeah, so, there was a bomb threat as early as last year. police, you know, responded to that. there was a booking charge for that. but it was sealed. and so that is what led to possible complications, not only with the shooter's background on top of a name change in 2015,

but may have allowed the shooter to actually purchase that weapon. because if -- because it was sealed, there would be no back ground check on a possible purchase of a weapon. that has been something that we've been asking attorneys, especially the district attorney here, as well, but because it is sealed, they are not able to talk about it, so, very frustrating as far as the investigative process and one that police are looking into at this point. nicolle? >> steve, any word on any of the plans to bury any of the victims? i remember covering the buffalo mass shooting and uvalde happened before any of those funerals had really taken place and we're already starting our hour today with another mass shooting, this one in chesapeake, virginia, so, i don't want to zip off of this community, still grieving and burying their loved ones. >> right now, there are a lot of faith-based organizations on the ground providing support, providing aid. we know there have been several vigils, of course, scattered along this community. we know there's going to be

something of a parade this weekend to help commemorate, celebrate the lives of the victims. nothing yet as far as what funeral or memorial plans are, but of course, that will be coming. i think right now, we haven't even reached the phase of morning, because we are still in that phase of shock in the community. not only the lgbtq plus community, but colorado springs -- colorado as a whole, which has experienced so many of these mass shootings over the years in our country, as well. nicolle? >> steve patterson, thank you so much for your great reporting there and for joining us to talk about it. we're really grateful. barb, i want to come to you on a question about whether this is a normal pace for charging an alleged mass shooter. >> well, it certainly a normal pace to get initial charges filed. you want to hold somebody in custody and so charges need to be filed so that they can be detained. but it is also not uncommon that charges may evolve as an

investigation unfolds. for example, i think we still don't know, at least publicly, a whole lot about the motive here. and sometimes that requires interviewing people known to the suspect, it requires looking at social media accounts. it requires talking to people who were in the club to hear if he said anything that might be evidence of a motive. so, it could be that that part of it changes. you call that a super ceding indictment, so that can happen. and it's really important as investigators go down that path, that they keep an open mind and they not engage in confirmation bias. that they are open to suggestions and not rushing to judgment with a particular conclusion in mind. >> you know, david, it's so extraordinary that mr. fierro was there and that he attacked, not by shooting, but by taking the gun and using it as a weapon, this mass shooter. and i love lifting him up. but you shouldn't have to have a former iraq war veteran

everywhere you are to know that you might be safe if a mass shooter breaks out. i mean, i have such a -- a well of gratitude that he was there and that more people didn't lose their lives or suffer gun violence, but i also have this sick feeling that, you know, but for the presence of mind that a veteran of war had in the moment -- >> yeah. >> to confront a mass shooter, this could have been so much worse. just pick up where kris left off about where we are. >> yeah, and the but for, nicolle, is a pulse nightclub that takes the lives of 50 people as opposed to five or six. and i do think it's important with the news that the shooter identifies as they/them that we also recognize that a shooter can have hate and prejudice in their heart regardless of which community they identify and associate with. there are scholars that can speak to that with much more qualifications than i can, but you can already see the right

about to go crazy in prime time tonight. i think it's just too early, as barb said, for us to understand the information available. where are we? i mean, i think politically, look, i would say this, we clearly, as a culture, have been unable to change hearts and minds to reduce gun violence. and so we have to change laws. and we just have to embrace that and continue to fight like kris and other organizations do, to change laws. and there are good actors in the democratic party and there are bad actors that affiliate with the republican party. and that's just a truism in this debate. the moderate republican party has largely been owned by three groups. the gun lobby, the religious right, and the chamber of commerce community that wants less taxes and less regulation. the gun lobby has wrongly conflated fundamental rights with being absolute rights, suggesting the fundamental rights to bear arms is an absolute right and they've indoctrinated legislators that

embrace that. and the religious right continues to suggest that marginalized communities need to be marginalized, particularly the lgbtq. you see the failed gun policy and hate in people's heart that lead to gun violence like we saw in colorado. >> that is so profound and i feel like you were almost ready to say people who identify as republicans, which would be a funny way to talk about them and losing their mind in prime time over on fox. david jolly, thank you for joining us today and i hope you have a very happy holiday. barbara will be back in the next hour to make us smarter. up next for us here, german soccer players at the world cup protesting not being allowed to wear rainbow arm bands in a show of support for the gay community and human rights in the host country of qatar. we'll talk about what's going on there and at these games. and what the biden administration is saying about all of it. that is next. washable rugs up to 80% off.

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that's really important, especially as you age. i noticed after kids that my body totally changed. i started noticing a little pudge. so i took action! coolsculpting targets, freezes and eliminates treated fat for good. no needles, no incisions. discuss coolsculpting with your provider. some common side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort and swelling. you've come this far... coolsculpting takes you further. visit coolsculpting.com human rights is one of the key pillars of our foreign policy. whether it's here in the region, or, for that matter, all around the world. it's always concerning when we see any restrictions on freedom of expression, it's especially so when the expression is for diversity. and for inclusion. and in my judgment, at least no one on a football pitch should be forced to choose between supporting these values and

playing for their team. >> u.s. secretary of state antony blinken in qatar yesterday, the host nation of this year's world cup. he is there for meeting and for the world cup. it's coming under the shadow of -- laws criminalizing same sex relationships. as you heard there, blinken sharply criticizing concerns over sanction threats. fifa told team captains they would be given yellow card violations if they wear rainbow colored one love arm bands during their matches in support of inclusion. it has forced at least seven european teams to back out of their plans to wear them. they did express some satisfaction of what he describes deepening cooperation with his qatari counterpart.

"the washington post" calls it a difficult balancing act. joining me now, rick stengel, former top state department official. dave, take me inside these games and how this came be and whether the voices have been successfully muzzled by qatar. >> yeah, i mean, these games are a story that's ten years old which is one of the frustrating people, as people express outrage now about qatar hosting the games, as if we didn't know everything that was going on for ten years. the big obstacles, the deaths of migrant workers, countless numbers of migrant workers in the creation of the stadiums, which were in and of themselves an over $200 billion project to bring the world cup to qatar. and in addition to that, nolessening of the very, very cruel laws in qatar around lgbtq

people and around women's rights. and i think this has been a thing that a lot of people have been wrestling with, is, like, how do you enjoy the most joyous event that human beings have yet to produce on this planet earth while at the same time, knowing that the underbelly, or even the overbelly is as rancid as it is. >> what's amazing is the brazenness, dave. they are there and banning and threatening to impact the outcome of the games if people exercise their support for lgbtq plus communities. i mean, did we know that would be the case? >> yeah, no, i mean, and this is a case of fifa actually backing down on promises to support these kinds of values. people might remember just earlier last week, johnny infantino, the head of fifa, with that cringe-inducing speech, where he said, i am a migrant worker, i am gay, i am a muslim, i mean, he didn't say

i'm an oil baron, he left that out. but that's what the approach was, and yet when it comes time to actually show that level of transparent solidarity. as people pile on qatar for its laws, for its customs, for authoritarian rule, we have to remember that fifa and western sponsors, we have to remember that all the nations lined up to do this over the last decade, which makes some of the protests now a little bit thin. >> let me read your piece, dave, and then i want to bring in rick stengel to this conversation. you write this for msnbc. "we can express solidarity with the lgbtq community of qatar and a express solidarity with the women and migrant laborers who died while helping qatar look presentable for this world cup and link the laws to a broader international trend to right

wing that stalks the united states. we must start seeing these movements as global. that means our movement must be glo global, as well." i agree with everything you write here. how is it we are lifting up qatar? >> you know, i'm reminded strongly of the period during the world war where the u.s. was lecturing about human rights to the eastern bloc and the response was always, how are you lecturing us? look at selma, look at jim crow, that was always the battle between the human rights of foreign policy and then the realities at home when people point out hypocrisies. and in this particular case, it's so important to shine a light on what life is like for lgbtq people in qatar, but it's also important to say that in our country, i mean, the broadcast that you've done so far, you know, really moving about colorado springs, or the

laws against the inclusion of trans children in our society, or the fact that we have children's hospitals in this country that are scared to open their doors for fear of bomb threats. i mean, all this needs to be part of our assessment of what's going on in qatar, because we're dealing with similar trends at home. and if anybody says to what i'm saying, well, qatar is a state actor and the u.s. is more small scale terrorism, i think that's incredibly naive, when you look at the right wing edge of the republican party. and certain news networks, which are, i would argue, state actors in this process. >> wow. rick stengel, take me inside tony blinken's balancing act. >> yes, nicolle. balancing act is exactly the right way to put it. and i would agree and say hurrah to everything that dave and you have said. and i applaud tony for making those remarks. he is, as you mentioned, a huge soccer fan and i love it, as i

know you do, when american secretaries of state talk about human rights as an essential part of american foreign policy, talk about free speech as an essential part of american foreign policy. all that being said, and as awful as qatar is, they're not as bad as the other members of the gulf cooperation counsel. they work with us much more than saudi arabia. they've been helpful when it comes to oil and ukraine, unlike saudi arabia and uae. they have been ostracized by saudi arabia and uae for their support of the muslim brotherhood, an organization that we are somewhat sympathetic to, so, it's a real balancing act. i mean, i guess it's -- you know, they're better than -- it's like, who is the least worst thief among a gang of thieves, but they have helped our diplomacy over the last few years. >> i mean, rick, i -- that's all, i think debatable, i hear

what you're saying, but i think that there's something -- so, right, you have to remain -- maintain diplomatic relations, we need their help with ukraine and other things, but do you have to elevate them to the center of the universe? i mean, we call it soccer, it's football everywhere else, and it is the beating heart of so many countries' ports and beyond sports, their cultures. isn't there something more than just accepting qatar and the least bad of the group, when you bestow your team to participate? i mean, do you think that any boycotts were ever on the table or is that a bridge too far? >> well, you know, i'm going to backtrack, too, and go back to what dave was talking about, about their treatment of migrant workers, i mean, i've been to qatar, you know, several times, the lion share of the population are people not wearing the white robes that the qatari citizens are. but at the same time, and of

course they -- they punish home mow sexuality by capital punishment, but you know, we have to make some distinctions, and, oh, yes, the thing that i was searching there for a second is, the justice department, let's remember, the justice department has indicted members of the qatari government for accepting -- for giving bribes to fifa, and indicting members of fifa ruling counsel, as well, so, i'm not justifying it. the department of justice has said they got the games because they bribed officials. i mean, that's all in the public record. there's no excusing that. and -- but the rest of the world went along with it. i mean, fifa itself, you know, is probably in that same, you know, den of thieves that qatar is, so, you know, they're reprehensible, too. >> all right, what a big mess. i need you guys to educate me on fifa and soccer, because i know just enough to be dangerous. i'm going to ask you guys to stick around through a break.

i also want to show our viewers, i'm going to play, we're going to listen to sound from a u.s. journalist detained in doha for wearing a rainbow shirt to team usa's opening game this week. we're going to listen to him describe what that was like. don't go anywhere. ever leave your clothes in the dryer and find a wrinkled mess? try downy wrinkle guard fabric softener! wrinkle guard penetrates deep into fibers, leaving clothes so soft, wrinkles don't want to stick around. make mornings smoother with downy wrinkle guard fabric softener. (pensive music) (footsteps crunching)

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by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school. support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine and help for kids around the world. you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today. my father didn't know his dad.

she knew that i always want to know more about my family history. with ancestry i dug and dug until i found some information. i was able to find out more than just a name. and then you add it to the tree. i found ship manifests. birth certificate. wow. look at your dad. i love it so much to know where my father work, where he grew up? it's like you discover a new family member. it's the greatest gift. now on sale at ancestry. they demanded i take the shirt off, i refused. then, after i got a tweet off, forcibly took my cell phone and

kept it for 30 minutes. eventually, the security commander came and allowed me to go in and keep my shirt on and it went from there, they apologized, fifa apologized and, you know, left me wondering about what it's like for qataris who are here outside of world cups who are gay, because this was something that i had to deal with at an event that was being covered globally. >> that's the million dollar question, right? that was journalist grant wahl recounting his experience in qatar, where he was detained by authorities for wearing a rainbow shirt to a world cup match. we're back with dave and rick. dave, what is the best bad outcome of these games? because, i mean, to his point, the world is watching and this is how qatar is acting. >> i mean, the best bad outcome is a couple of things. i mean, first and foremost, you've seen some changes. some argue they are cosmetics.

but changes around the migrant labor policy in qatar because of all the attention put on the country. and that is always the hope. sunlight is the best disinfectant. so, perhaps highlighting these issues can, in fact, provoke change. but another outcome that i think is important, and this relates to something that was said before the break, is, you know, if we speak about qatar and bribery and fifa, i mean, look. show me a fifa bid that did not involve bribery in the last 100 years. and i'll find you an honest man in casablanca, as they said in "ghost." this is a dirty business, and every country has gotten its hands dirty in it, because the profits are so incredible. but what comes out of it, in addition to an amazing global event, is debt displacement and the militarization of public space. so, what we're seeing in qatar is not that different, for example, than what i saw on the ground in brazil in 2014.

it was kind of supercharged in a way we haven't seen before. >> and rick, is fifa -- i know fifa has been criminally investigated before and they've done exterm and internal audits, i mean, is it just beyond hope for repair and reform? >> it's a good question, and i wish i knew more about it, i mean, it's a private organization, and i would say the fact that there's been corruption there for a long time doesn't exonerate the fact that there was corruption recently. the other organization at the same time that had indictments involving fifa was russia bribing fifa officials at the same time they were bribing fifa officials along with qatar. but i'll make the larger point about the times that we live in. once upon a time, we engaged, western nations, engaged with countries in the middle east and elsewhere with the idea that what we consider universal values would affect the way those countries in the middle east behaved, and they would

become more accepting of these universal values that we've been talking about. the problem that we're seeing on the world stage now is this movement towards ultra nationalalism, which we see in the middle east, as well, countries saying, we don't have to accept any of those values that you endorse. we successfully bribed our way to all this and spent many, many billions of dollars building stadiums. that's a veriication of our vote, it's not making us more liberal or progressive. qatar is an undemocratic religious monarchy. that's something that we revolted against 240 years ago. but it's coming back into vogue in different places around the world. that's the problem. >> well, and rick, i think the other half of your point is, when we're losing our ability to make those arguments, right? to your point and to dave's point, vladimir putin dangles it over the west. you murdered ashli babbitt. it's being used against us on the world stage.

it's just a fascinating moment. dave and rick, thank you for indulging my ignorance about soccer and having this conversation with us. i hope you have a great rest of your week. when we come back, it is a shortened week and it's already fair to say, this has been the worst one for the ex-president and his fight to stave off multiple legal -- should we call them investigations into him? and now, news doj wants to sit down and chitchat with mike pence. lots more news straight ahead on this topic. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe. (pensive music) (broom sweeping) - [narrator] one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food. no family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies.

all around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. covid, conflict, inflation and climate have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime. and we're fed up. fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. fed up with the lack of progress. fed up with the injustice. help us brighten the lives of children all over the world by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school. support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving

to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine and help for kids around the world. you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today.

i served for 12 years in the

congress. it's inconceivable to me that one party would appoint every member of the committee in congress. that's antithetical to the whole idea of the committee's system. that being said, i never stood in the way of senior members of my team cooperating with the committee and testifying. but congress has no right to my testimony. >> you're closing the door on that entirely? >> i'm closing the door on that. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. after months of speculation if mike pence would appear before the 1/6 select committee, in that interview last week, he shot hope down of that happening. but now a new development from "the new york times." the justice department is seeking to question mike pence as a witness in connection with its criminal investigation into former president trump's efforts to stay in power after he lost the 2020 election. that is according to two people familiar with the matter. pence, according to people familiar with his thinking, is open to considering the request,

recognizing that the justice department's criminal investigation is different from the inquiry by the house january 6th committee, whose overtures he has flatly rejected. pence can provide a first-hand account of the pressure campaign waged against him by the former president in the weeks leading up to january 6th. that continued even as trump supporters were storming the u.s. capitol. "the times" reports this, quote, complicating the situation is whether trump would try to invoke executive privilege to stop him or limit his testimony. a step that he has taken with limited success so far with other former officials. this development is a cherry on top of a week chock full of legal woes for the disgraced ex-president. as politico reports on yesterday's developments, quote, the supreme court put years of trump's tax returns in the hands of house democrats. a three-judge appeals court panel, which included two of trump's own appointees appear poised to rule resoundingly in favor of the justice department in a case involving its seizure of documents from mar-a-lago.

politico assesses that in recent weeks, the sheer volume of acute threats, both criminal and civil, have put trump in a vice unlike any he's faced before. another very bad week for the ex-president, is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. mike schmidt is here, his by line is on that new reporting about mike pence. also joining us, charlie savage, "new york times" washington correspondent. plus political strategist matt dowd is here and barbara mcquade is back to help us sift through it all. mike, take us through what you're reporting about mike pence. >> well, we know that in the past civil weeks before the special counsel was appointed, tom wyndham, the lead january 6th investigator, reached out to pence's side to say that the justice department was interested in questioning the former vice president. now, there have been a lot of

witnesses in the january 6th investigation. one of the most significant would certainly be pence. this would be an extraordinary twist on an already extraordinary series of investigations that we've seen throughout the trump presidency. it's important to know that despite the fact that pence was in the room for a range of events throughout trump's presidency, including several things in the obstruction investigation, pence has never been interviewed by the authorities. he was never interviewed by mueller and this would be the first time that he would be questioned. this will probably take many weeks, if not months to play out, because trump is likely to try to invoke privilege, executive privilege. he's tried to do this with other witnesses and been unsuccessful. but it will slow this down. it will likely require a subpoena and a back and foth between jump's lawyers and the justice department and

ultimately the government will get some form of pence's testimony, but this will take time. >> other than the former title of vp, mike, what just as a fact witness, where does that intersect with what we know doj is investigating? merrick garland mentioned the fake electors plot and we know from pence's attorney that he was in the room with eastman and he spoke to trump's knowledge of the illegality of the eastman plot. we also know they're looking at january 6th participants who were specifically not at the u.s. capitol, that says ding, ding, ding, donald trump. just talk about pence as a fact witness. >> well, look, pence is in the room with the president in the days leading up to january 6th, where trump himself and, you know, with the help of john eastman, this little known conservative lawyer that came up with a bonus legal scheme for trump to basically, you know, have pence pick whoever he wanted as president, where trump is putting that pressure

directly on pence. pence is the fulcrum where everything on january 6th turns. he is the person that was supposed to certify the election. and he did certify the election. when the rioters are storming into the building, they're storming "hang mike pence." so, he was the person that owl of trump's ire was directed at and he was also in the room for when trump was pressuring him. so, if you are trying to understand how trump tried to overturn the 2020 election is the key person to that is the vice president, who is being told by the president of the united states, you know, you can essentially pick the electors that you want to pick for who wins. >> and mike, other than his political ambitions, what is he likely to throw up as a reason for not talking -- i believe my old boss dick cheney talked to the special counsel investigating the valerie plame

leak, i mean, there is precedent for this. >> well, it's important to understand sort of pence's history with these different investigations. when he was in the white house, and he was the vice president, he had to deal with trump on a daily basis. he had a lawyer named richard cullen, represent the vice president, who went in and quietly met with mueller's team. and told mueller's team what pence would testify about and he said that pence didn't think that trump obstructed justice. you have to remember, pence was in a very tenuous position at this point. trump was, obviously turns on everyone that's around him and pence was trying to maintain his position, you know, to not, you know, piss off trump. and what happens is that this lawyer, richard cullen, goes in and he moments with mueller's team and despite the fact that pence had been in the room for all these different incidents of obstruction that were investigated, mueller's team never questioned pence directly. they were able to get him out of it. and that's just very, you

know -- it meant that when the report came out, there were no citations to mike pence. mike pence was not a witness against donald trump in the mueller investigation, because he was never questioned. he's one of the few people in the room for these things that no one ever talked to. so, this would mark the first time that investigation attorneys are talking to pence. and it would come at a time that pence himself is trying to position a 2024 run. >> just amazing. mike, thank you so much for bringing us this reporting. let me come to you, barb, on this, in terms of precedent. i think there is and i want to check this. i believe that dick cheney and i believe george bush both spoke to special counsel fitzgerald who was the special counsel appointed to investigate the incidents around valerie plame. i mean, there's no legal reason why a vice president couldn't be

questioned by a special counsel, is there? >> no, you're absolutely right. and special counsels have interviewed presidents and vice presidents in the past. i think the only privilege he could assert here is executive privilege, but it's a qualified privilege and it is likely to not stand in the way of testimony here. one is that it -- it yields in the light of something that is more significant and has a stronger national interest in the archives case. the supreme court has already held that the national interest in investigating the january 6th investigation outweighs any executive privilege. and the incumbent president is the one who gets to exert executive privilege. >> right. >> so, donald trump can request it, but it's ultimately the incumbent president who decides. so, i don't think executive privilege is going to stand in the way here. and it is essential that the justice department talks to mike pence. you can't bring this case without talking to him. you have to talk to all of the

relevant witnesses, because if you don't, the fear is they'll testify for the defense and tell you something at trial that you didn't know before, so, they absolutely have to talk to him. if nothing else, to lock in a story and find out what he's going to say. maybe he has things to say that are favorable to donald trump. it tends to suggest that he did not have criminal intent, possibly. they need to know that. they need to get him to testify and i don't think that executive privilege is ultimately going to stand in the way here. >> i mean, barbara, just go through some of this with me, i mean, the -- he's both the intended victim, right, hang mike pence, was because trump sent out the tweets about, hope mike does the right thing, i believe he did it in georgia that sunday night, as well, before the tuesday on the stage where he was ostensibly rallying for the georgia runoff, and he gives a whole speech televised on fox news and consumed by many of his supporters that would show up at the capitol on january 6th. and then mid-insurrection, he sends out another one goosing

mike pence. how do you not talk to the intended victim of the pressure campaign? >> the justice department has to do that. mike pence, i guess, politically, is trying to thread the needle here, appear to be cooperative. he doesn't want to anger donald trump or his supporters, so, he is trying to walk that delicate balance. i think the january 6th committee, at least initially, was satisfied that they could tell their story through his aides, marc short and greg jacobs, who knew most of the story. but there were meetings where it was just trump and pence and i think that to make sure that you know the potential defenses that donald trump might raise later, it's extremely important that you talk to mike pence to find out everything that he said. better to find that out later and to find out a way to shore up around it or you're not going to be able to make the case. these are the things that take so much time. we've got the case, why haven't they brought it yet -- you have

to not just prove your own case, you have to disprove the negative, but anticipating defenses that the defendant will raise being prepared to kind of button those done and rebut them. >> you know, charlie savage, just going to what we know to now be under criminal investigation by the new special counsel appointed by merrick garland at doj, merrick garland specifically mentioned the fake elector scheme and i remember greg jacob gave some of the most ill lus traive testimony in that public hearing about the specific knowledge that john eastman knew was illegal and that donald trump knew was illegal. just talk about whether pence might have known what his counsel knew. >> well, of course pence knew what his counsel knew. it would be direct, right, as opposed to, i told him this. i said this. and i heard this, and i said this to the president after hearing that. and so, it's one step closer to the -- the pure conversation, maybe the conversation that was

had after the lawyers left the room, he can speak to it all. i'll add one more thing on this conversation about executive privilege and whether that would be an impediment here. if pence is willing to talk to the justice department and based on mike's and maggie's reporting, it sounds like he's leaning in that direction, he doesn't necessarily have to obey a president trump -- former president trump telling him not to talk, because of executive privilege. ocean personally when there's already been all these litigation over other white house aides and it's clear that doesn't work, that the judge ruled against them every time. executive privilege can't stop him from talking. it's just a shield if he doesn't want to talk. to keep him from getting in trouble for not obeying a subpoena that comes to that. and so, all of this may be side-stepped if pence is just like, i'm going to talk. >> well, and charlie, again, correct me if i'm wrong on this, but i believe that his chief of staff and his counsel, greg jacob and mr. short, have already gone in, right, before the grand jury investigating

january 6th-related crimes, is that right? >> we believe that is the case, yes. and of course they talked to the january 6th committee, as well. >> as well, right. and we know some of their testimony from what was aired publicly, but of course not everything that doj would have asked them. charlie, broaden this lens for us in terms of, i mean, pence is a witness in one of the two criminal investigations under the purview of the special counsel, but this has been a week where so many of the efforts to hold him accountable or to otherwise investigate places where there's been a whole lot of smoke, his taxes, his closest allies in the senate, in the georgia investigation, this has been a week where a lot of legal wheels have finally ground in the direction of freeing things up for these cases pursuing donald trump criminally. >> that's right. there were a lot of developments, and this week is only halfway over, of course. but just yesterday, the supreme court aid that the house ways

and means committee can get trump's tax returns from 2015 to 2020. the house had been pursuing that since 2019 and trump has been using litigation to try to run out the clock on that and he almost succeeded. had the supreme court decided to extend a stay while they looked at it, it would have pushed it past january when republicans will take over the house and the almost four-year effort would have lapsed. but the supreme court very interestingly stays out of it. no noted dissents, and that means that very soon the house ways and means committee is going to get those tax returns that trump has been hiding for years. and they have the legal authority to publish them in the congressional record. also yesterday, a -- appeals court hearing in atlanta that consisted of three republican judges, two trump appointees, signaled they are inclined to shut down that special master that a trump appointed district court judge imposed in the mar-a-lago documents

investigation that's been slowing up and jamming up that investigation since she did that in early september. there was just no skeptical question asked of the justice department. and really brutal questioning of trump's lawyers. the writing is totally on the wall that he's going to lose that case. just among other things, even as these -- go ahead. >> i was just going to say, what does that mean? that whole process shuts down and the criminal investigation proceeds without the special master involved or what would that mean, charlie? >> yeah, so, depending on how they do it, it appears that if they were to rule the way that they suggested in the arguments yesterday they're inclined to, they would order -- they would wipe out the special counsel and sort of oust judge cannon from having anything to do with the case. the special master would shut down, he would never deliver his report overall these document disputes and whether executive privilege is involved or what not.

trump would still have to pay his fees, apparently. but the justice department would then have unfettered access to all the documents, not just those marked as classified, which the same appeals court already gave them last month. so, it would be the evidence in hand, basically, the most important evidence in hand that the justice department needs unfettered in order to move forward with deciding whether to indict. >> matthew dowd, there is something about the brazenness with which donald trump conducts his extraordinary brand of political corruption that makes the system that barbara and mike and charlie are explaining in pain staking detail, feel like mlasses in the face of speedy gonzalez of political criminality. but it is clear that this week is something of a watershed or a bills coming due, whatever you want to call it, and i guess my question for you, matthew, is to what end?

is the country sort of moved on, does justice matter no matter when it comes? what is your view on this? >> so, i mean, i think you touched on an interesting point, which leads to, i think, the -- what's telling in this, is that this is a -- began as a political problem, which a political party was unwilling to address, right? the republican party all along in this observed this behavior and observed all this and was unwilling to hold the leader of their party accountable, unlike what happened 50 years ago, finally, in watergate, when the republicans finally turned, republican leaders finally turned on richard nixon and held him accountable. so, we're left with this system, because one political party is completely unwilling and we're in a 50/50 country, is unwilling to hold their party leader responsible for open corruption, basically. we have to go through this process in a lengthy process as barb identified in a lengthy legal process in the midst of

this. i was thinking about this the other day, nicolle, in this way. my guess is if you gave truth sere rum to the lack of courage republicans who don't want donald trump around, which is most of them, and they basically don't want donald trump around, not because they believe his corruption doesn't belong in the white house, they don't want donald trump around because they're losing elections, right? you give them truth serum and what they want is, they want the special counsel to be successful. -- >> without a doubt. >> it allows him to get off the stage. they don't have to exercise any courage or principle in it. and they can retain the grievance of it, right? and so they want somebody else, which is, they wanted all along, to solve this problem of donald trump. it's in the legal system now, but most leaders, unprincipled, but want to win elections, would just as soon the special counsel have god speed in this, be successful, remove donald trump from the stage. something they've been unwilling to do all along.

>> which -- the only thing i would add, it creates extraordinary pressure on the justice department. it does not exist -- it is not supposed to exist in a vacuum to get rid of bad actors who happen to commit crimes along the way. our politics are supposed to solve for that so you're investigating and that takes some of the heat out of it if you are doj. you are investigating twice impeached and convicted, you know, corrupt politicians, but it is an extraordinary dynamic and i'm so grateful. did you want to say something else? >> yeah, i just wanted to add to that, what it does, because a party is unwilling to do that, it causes immense politicization of the courts, which then affects their credibility in this. because the republicans wouldn't deal with this, now the courts are being viewed as political, even though they're trying to do their job, because this is something ultimately that first should have been done in the political realm. >> right, and as charlie just explained, the judges that are likely to throw out the entire special master brouhaha, i think two of the three were appointed

by donald trump, so -- just an amazing week. thank you so much for being here to talk to us about it. charlie, barbara, thank you. matt sticks around a little bit longer for us. when we come back, the epidemic of gun violence in america. what is happening and why it's one of the two major political parties in our country continue to put gun manufacturers over the american people. that conversation is next. plus, we'll check in with our good friend igor of another round of strikes thrust kyiv and other ukrainian cities into darkness. and then ken burns will be our guest on his beautiful new book, "our america," which tells the story of 200 years of the american experiment in photographs. you won't want to miss that. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.wh ere.

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as americans gather around the thanksgiving tableable to, there will be nearly 40,000 empty seats. that's the number of people that have died this year by gun violence this year alone. and as we know all too well, the mass shootings in colorado springs and chesapeake, virginia, are not isolated incidents. so far this year, there have been 607 mass shootings. we are back with matt dowd. matt -- what does change look like? i -- we have had this conversation for as long as we've known each other about the over -- i don't know that you have 85% support for much of anything, but it's 85% to 94% of americans who support things like universal background

checks, red flag laws, and assault weapons bans. and nothing. what does change look like? >> well, i'm glad you led into this and i'm glad how you've led on this, led into this with the 40,000 plus empty seats at the table. all of us who have lost a daughter, not to gun violence, or a sister, or someone else, knowing right before thanksgiving, anyone that has that, knows the pain is incredibly fierce and deep that will exist. they're not going to be able to share a meal, they're not going to be able to watch a football game, they're not going to be able to watch the world cup, not going to be able to laugh over the holidays, they're not going to be able to tell stories, they're gone. and that's a huge missing piece in this, which ought to tug at the heartstrings and minds of everybody that's been in the way of this. you know, i thought about this, you know, the election was very successful in defeating any a number of people that were going to cause our democracy to fail in some states.

election deniers defeated for secretary of state or governor or attorney general or federal office. so, we sort of got by in the moment by the skin of our teeth, but there's still constitutional rot, i would say, in our democracy that hasn't been repaired. and one of the clearest indicators of it is that the majority doesn't rule on this issue. as you pointed out over and over again on the number of polls, whether it's 65% on banning assault weapons, on red flag laws, on near unanimity on background checks, it can't happen. and in a democracy, when the majority can't rule, you basically have a tyranny of the minority today. and my guess is, our founders would be looking at this aghast, one, how the second amendment has been interpreted in the midst of this, but more fundamentally, but our democracy still isn't functioning properly if that is the case on this serious of a gun issue. and the other part of this,

nicolle, i live in texas, i own guns, like most gun owners here, we're all for these things. the majority of gun owners are for these things in the midst of this, but we have a hodgepodge because of the way the system works and because of the way the republican party works and they're basically unbeatable in certain jurisdictions and they react to only a small segment of their base. we have places in our country where people don't have the safety and security in their schools and their churches, at walmart, wherever it happens to be, that somebody else might have that safety. and to me, the most fundamental thing of a democracy, obviously, is the will of the people, but is that you're safe in your social interactions. and many people in many states have no safety in their social interactions. and it's because of this tyranny of the minority ruled by 5% or 10% of the population. and that -- we have to deal with that. beating people in certain elections is great, and i'm glad

we did, but democracy still is not perfected, in my ways, it's taken multiple steps back ward, when the majority wants something done and it isn't happening. >> matthew, the city of chesapeake, virginia, has just released the identities of the victims from last night. let's remember them together. they all died in the walmart shooting. they are lorenzo gamble. brian pendleton, kelly pile, randall blevins, and tanika johnson. the sixth victim is a 16-year-old male resident of chesapeake, his name and photo are being withheld because he's too young, he's a minor. so, there you go. six families, matthew dowd, going through what you just described. never seeing their loved ones again. >> it's horrendous, horrendous pain that people will experience. and the worst part of it is the majority of the country wants something done and a small segment of society is preventing

it. it is absolutely horrendous. >> matt dowd, thank you for having the hard conversations with us day in and day out. we are so thankful to you. >> happy thanksgiving, nicolle. >> you, too, my friend. shifting gears to the war in ukraine, where another night of strikes left sefrm parts of the country without any power. we'll check in after a quick break. don't go anywhere. nywhere. promie a careful steward of the things that matter to you most. i promise to bring you advice that fits your values. i promise our relationship will be one of trust and transparency. as a fiduciary, i promise to put your interests first, always. charles schwab is proud to support the independent financial advisors who are passionately dedicated to helping people achieve their financial goals. visit findyourindependentadvisor.com i love all types of dancing... salsa, and even belly dancing! i am a triathlete. i've always been into health, and wellness, and fitness...

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a new round of rocket

attacks rained down on several cities around ukraine today, as russia continues to pummel that country with aerial attacks following their humiliating retreat from kherson. the strikes once again targeted energy facilities in cities like kyiv and lviv, leaving much of the country of ukraine without power or water. civilian residential targets were also hit, including a high rise building in the capital city. that's according to local media. three people have died and several more were injured. this new round of attacks comes one day after russian air strikes hit a maternity ward in the southern part of the country near zaporizhzhia, killing a newborn baby. joining us, our friend igor novokov, former adviser to ukraine's president zelenskyy. i feel like you warned us as ukraine had more and more consistent and dramatic success on the battlefield, that it wouldn't matter to the civilian population, because putin's attacks would be so brutal.

the campaign of terrorism would accelerate. and it seems like that is what is happening. >> well, nicolle, real men and women fight on the battlefield, unfortunately cowards, the only thing they can do is send missiles 1,000 miles away to target newborn babies. i mean, that's what's happening in essence, but to be honest, i mean, i think reporting from ukraine today doesn't capture the essence of what is happening on the ground, because those are just figures. ten people died in ukraine today, 67 missiles sent our way. but let me paint the picture for you with a couple of stories. first of all, there was this old woman a few days ago, and we keep having these blackouts. she lives in a high rise building on the ninth floor and the poor old thing, she just goes downstairs, takes the elevator to grab some fresh air, sit on the bench just outside the building. the blackout happens, so, she's stuck there for eight hours in freezing cold the unable to go

back up the stairs to the ninth floor. and people even offered kind of to carry her to her apartment, but she said no, because she has dignity. she would prefer to freeze. that's one thing. another thing, you know, we had surgeons operating on a child today at the children's hospital doing heart surgery when the power went out. so they had to continue the surgery for some time with flashlights. lastly, i mean, just a few doors down in the icu, there are kids on ventilators and the power went out and the medics actually had to prepare those manually pumped bags to keep the children breathing and living. you know, just in case the generators didn't kick in. that's the real essence of what's going on. it's not just the blackouts. it's not just facts and figures. it's human tragedy and real lives on the ground and that's important to kind of highlight, especially to foreign audiences. >> igor, do you view the campaign of terrorism against the civilian population as

something that will end? i mean, what -- how does it end? >> well, i don't see it ending, unfortunately, i mean, that's the only semieffective weapon that putin has against ukraine. because they can't win on the battlefield. the country against all odds is actually coping economically and even our energy sector. look, today for the first time ever since this strikes began, the nuclear power plants went offline. and yes, the power is back in most of ukraine, the water supply is back and everything, you know, is returning to normal and i'm seeing, like, businesses, like, coping amazingly. i told you about the blackout menus, but i've seen literally one small shop that's dealing in, like, frozen food, you know, their power went out, so, they have a hawaiian party with torches and, like, a flash sale, selling everything at a 70% discount. that's the spirit. and you can't break it even with

terrorism. so, you know, terrorism is the only weapon he has, so unfortunately, i don't see it ending any time soon. >> president zelenskyy announced the creation of, i think they're called invincibility centers, places where people will be able to go and they know they'll have power and safety and heat and water and cell service. talk about that, not just the logistics of that, but the psychology of that. >> well, the psychologist is very simple. we call them centers for the unbroken, i guess that's the best translation i've heard, but it's an interesting name and do pardon the naming, but basically, the idea is incredibly simple. the idea is even if all of the power goes, right, even if we are freezing and it's dark and everything, to have those, like, small islands of light and life and actually, it's not only government-owned, so basically anyone can convert their house, like, for example, my house i'm

planning to convert into one of those centers, because i have a diesel generator and, you know, my starlink will be arriving tomorrow, because i donated the two i bought to the army. so, it's about getting people through the winter. but what's important here, like, look, i did the very interesting survey, so, i've been speaking to, like, children, like, over the last week or so, asking them, like, because christmas is around the corner, i mean, how they see christmas and has putin completely grinched them out, pardon the term, but no. i mean, everyone's looking forward to christmas. they said, we're going to put christmas trees in shelters if we have to, like, we're going to have music. and i did a musical survey, secretly hoping that they would select metallica, but no, ukrainian kids love taylor swift. it would be great if she could do a song or something like that. >> tell me what we can do. i think i speak for -- i'm sure you see all of my viewers are so thankful to have gotten to know

you and your family and your beautiful girls this year. what can we do? >> well, actually, this is the first time ever i do have a personal favor to ask, but i mean, before i get toe that, what's really important now is apart from the military hardware that's been sent and the military aid, is to focus on the humanitarian things. we need all those generators, because there is a chancehe blackout. we need all the starlinks. it's petrifying not to even get an air raid alert. if the power goes out, the cell reception goes out. we need those blankets, like, low temperature blankets, we need food. what world central kitchen is amazing. we need that food in the shelters. but you know, a positive story that kind of leads to the favor really quickly. i have this friend, i mentioned him to you before, he used to be a very successful businessman, but he's lost three warehouses. he's literally broke, all he has

is his apartment in central kyiv. so, i called him today, the same guy who said putin saved his marriage. i said today, look, what -- how is your morale? he said, look, at the end of the day, i have candles, whiskey, a grand piano. the only luxury that i have left. and i have my freedom and dignity. what do they have, the russians? putin. that's it. that's all they have. and he actually suggested to me, we kind of -- we talked and basically the plan is now, unfortunately haven't seen a single documentary or inside report that kind of captures the real essence of what's happening. so, i'm going to be filming a documentary and i need the big guns behind me, so, if anyone out there is listening, like, you know, nbc universal, hbo, netflix, get in touch, because, you know, the real characters, the real drama on the ground is far superior to the best characters ever written in hollywood, i mean, that's the story. >> igor, ken burns is on next.

we'll see if he knows a guy or gal that can help with that. thank you so much. what you say here travels around the world a couple times and back. we'll do anything we can to help you. >> thank you. happy thanksgiving. >> happy thanksgiving, my friend. when we come back, as we just revealed, on this day before thanksgiving, we'll take a look at some of the images and photographs that best tell the story of america and the american experiment. they've been assembled by the great documentary filmmaker ken burns for his new book, "our america." ken burns will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere. go anywhere.

to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's basically cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps,

playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children.

please give now. for years, our next guest has been making exquisite and important films that tell the story of us. the story of our country's history through both the highs, the glory, and the lows, the shame. now, award winning documentary filmmaker ken burps has published his first book, without any sort of movie tie-in, in many years. the book is called "our america." some of ken's favorite photos that speak to america's soul and taken together give us a look at the rich, complicated, and diverse history of these united states. ken burns joins us now. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you, nicolle, i'm so happy to be with you. >> tell me about this book. >> so, this has been a labor of

love, 15, 20 years in incubation, working on it at night. there's maybe 250 photographs here. we've looked at and handled over 30,000, trying to tell a history of the united states, the capitol before the capitol, the carlisl indian school, all sorts of interesting things. and my idea was to look at these things with minimal captions. and then allow the photographs to speak to us, the mystery. this is dr. king's march on washington, abraham lincoln's listening to him. this is kind of what's going on. and then at the back, there's a thumbnail of each photograph and a lot of material about what's the story behind the story. and i think that too often our arguments about america become buy their. we wish to sanitize it or not permit it to be complicated. it has to remain complicated. it has to have mystery to it. it has to have something that's

in everiable. it's progressing through american history. the first shot is from 1839. the first self-portrait. all the way up to the near present. we get a little bit squirrely if we get too close. the cover shot is taken by my menner to, the great still photographer jerome liebling in 1939, on the streets of new york city. just a wonderful shot. everything's there. every state is represented, all of the films that we've made, but not with neon signs attached to it. just a sense that there could be a different way to recon with our complexity, our controversy, and also the intimacy of us. you know, race is here and the disposition of native peoples of their lands, but also the beauty of the landscape. and i think in this -- in this instance, the fact of a photograph, which has always been the dna of the work that i've done, that we've done, the people who work with me, has

been about fact and truth. and we now are supposedly in a post-truth time and we cannot be. we have to be able to sit before the evidence of who we are and were, to just celebrate that. the good stuff, but also the bad stuff. and have a kind of honest reckoning. this is not political in any way. it's human. >> right. >> and it permits art to speak to us. in politics and buy their things, one and one equals two, but what we're looking for in our faith, our love, our relationships, our art, for one and one to be three. i'm trying to share the relationship in the photographs that do that. >> i love this, the fact of a picture. i mean, the truth is, your work has always been so important and so central, and that's why everyone waits with baited breath ahead of every project and celebrates its release, but do you feel -- i don't want to use the word burdened, but do you feel, you know, you working

at a faster clip, do you feel more urgency with these efforts, because of this tension between what is true and what is real and what is history? >> oh, oh, absolutely. you know, i'm working harder than i've ever been before, i'm 69, i go, what are you doing? we accelerated our film "the u.s. and the holocaust" to come out a year earlier than, because we wanted to be part of the conversation, you know, we're looking at the rise of total tirnism and you begin to see that photographs have the subtlety in it and the kind of mystery to be able to sort of plum really important depth about who we are. you know, jefferson warned us about this thing, he said, all experience has shown, in the declaration, a little bit farther along from the famous ends, that mankind with mor disposed to suffer while evil is sufferable. it suggests that a democracy requires a lot of work. and while we have opposing views and tensions within the very

nature of freedom itself, what i want, personal freedom, versus what we need collective freedom, there's also another more insidious thing, which is trying to undermine freedom all together. it's always been with us. so the fact and the truth of the photographs and our ability to accept and to understand the complexity and richness, the beauty, joy, sorrow, the tragedy that is implicit in all that we have been through, prepares us in a way for this moment which you struggle daily to parse for us. and that's super important. you can't know where you are going or where you are if you don't know where you've been. this is a way to try to celebrate. there's susan b. anthony. she votes and goes to jail. you know, 144 years after the declaration of independence, women get the right to vote. the majority of our citizens. that's the story of america. there are also people, 4 million of them in 1861, who had

-- peculiar experience of being free, and the land belongs to nearly 300 tribes of native peoples for whom we just steam rollered over their land. their even notion of possession of land is different from us. and so we've got to come to terms with the complexity of this before we can go farther and make a more perfect union, or continue to be in the pursuit of happiness and also try to arrest these impulses that we can call authoritarian, or the kinds of things that we've been struggling with over the last five years. >> i know about your work ethic. i never quite heard you put it in this -- in this sort of blunt way that this climate is definitely fueling a real -- a real drive to get these projects out. i would love to probe that further with you. as i said, i have consumed your work at the moment it is

available. to see these things coming out ahead of schedule to be part of the conversation, it matters so much. it's so important. thank you for this new book "our america, a photographic history," out right now. ken burns, thank you for spending time with us. i hope it's to be continued. >> to be continued. thank you, nicolle. >> thank you. happy thanksgiving. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. r us we'll be right back. and living room seating up to 65% off. search, shop, and save at wayfair! ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ ♪♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new?

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we want to note a historical and cultural milestone. for the first time in america's history, the four largest cities will be led by black mayors. karen bass' win last week in los angeles enjoying three others in that history making group of mayors. none of them is their city's first african american mayor, this will be the first time that all four cities have black mayors at the same time. we'll be right back. and your family first. i promise to serve, not sell. i promise our relationship will be one of partnership and trust. i am a fiduciary, not just some of the time, but all of the time. charles schwab is proud to support the independent financial advisors who are passionately dedicated to helping people

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