happy friday, hope you had a great holiday. whether you and yours gathered

around the thanksgiving table, or maybe you're still gathering around the leftovers. this is a time to give thanks and reflect of what we are grateful for. on the top of the list, democracy, and rejection of hand picked election deniers. what about the disgraced ex-president himself. we know donald trump's big announcement that he's making a third run for president was met with a collective national shrug and groan at best. then there's the early christmas present from attorney general merrick garland. newly minted jack smith hard at work overseeing two criminal investigations into the disgraced ex-president including the investigation into trump's mishandling of classified materials at mar-a-lago. gordon served at principle deputy director of national

intelligence. she spent 30 years at the highest levels. she briefed every american president since ronald reagan. shortly after the deadly insurrection, sue gordon made an extraordinary declaration, cut off trump's briefings. he posed too great of a national security threat. thankfully the biden administration heeded the warning. when news broke that trump had been hoarding classified documents. we called none other than sue gordon. >> what was donald trump like around classified documents? >> so it's a great question. listen, he was -- i think the first thing you need to know is the intelligence community always treated him as the president, which meant we shared with him any and all information that we believed the president needed, regardless of

classification, so that's step number one. step number two is i think he was an interested consumer. he did not come into office and develop any particular understanding of the craft and discipline of intelligence. in other words, what's special about it hasn't differed from what you read in the "washington post" and "new york times," as remarkable as those journalistic publications are. so he had access to it all. we briefed him all. he was the president. he had his duties to carry out, but it was my experience that he didn't appreciate the particular nature of the craft and deployment of intelligence. that made him not understand what was being protected. the thing i would just say that is lost here is you can't tell

what's classified or important or the level just by looking at it. you can see something sensational, and that can be something openly available. and you can see the most mundane sentence, and it's indicative of some intention or action, so this idea that anyone can just casually assume what is really classified is just false, and the same thing i would say goes for the president. i don't think he acquired that appreciation. >> you've said a bunch of really important things. i want to try to impact them. not understanding the craft, what he said publicly went beyond not understanding the craft, and i assume by that you mean the professionalism, and the way all of the product is curated and vetted before anything is presented to him. the partnerships, the alliances, the people who risk their lives to develop and corroborate information before it's presented to the president.

that craft was lost on him. >> and how long it takes, and what it takes and who risks their lives in order to give us the information we need in order to provide both national and global security. you know, intelligence isn't opinion. intelligence is the discipline by which you take fund mentally uncertain information, and work with it so the deal makers can work with it uncertainty. there are untold risks and relationships that are buried within, and that, in addition to the particular piece of information is what you're protecting so when you don't understand that or you say, i think this is something i can share, and you don't understand that, you are potentially unraveling net works that have taken years to build, and are at the corner of stone of global

security. were you ever involved in having to do a spill assessment based on concerns that he'd shared something? i know the one that is really public facing is this oval office meeting with sergey lavrov, and i know h.r. master ran, did not walk to the driveway to ensure press, he did not endanger ally sources or methods with lavrov. there were other incidents. he would tweet out photos. he was constantly trying to push sensitive information into the public domain where it served him. >> so anytime information was shared outside the channels that would normally be used to control it, we routinely assessed what the impact of that would be. now, it is true that a sitting

president does have many authorities to make decisions about his role in national security. i think this is one of the things that gets so lost. we have access to classified information to serve the nation's interests. individuals, when they have access to that, and especially when they have access to classified and declassified things as the president did, as i did and some others, you are a steward of the nation's interests. and so you need to be considering those interests when you make every decision. all right. so when a sitting president makes those decisions that is in his role as the president a decision about what's in the nation's interest. that is an entirely different role when you're a private citizen as he is and i am now. that doesn't mean that at some point the nation couldn't say, gosh, we need the former president or gosh we need sue gordon to have access to information anew, but when you're no longer in office, you

are not the keeper of the nation's interests, and consequently, your authority changes. >> he's clearly talking about declassification until the context of personal liability, not the context you're describing, a state interest, right? >> the act of declassifying is not a personal act. it's not an act for preference. it's not an act because i want to, it's not because i want to do something. it's because it serves either the national or public interest. it's a process you go through that you work with experts to say, if i declassify this, what will the impact be and can we bear it? it isn't something casually done regardless of whether you have the authority to do so or not. and it isn't in order to protect yourself or aggrandize yourself. it's an entirely different thing, and so this discussion about authority to declassify,

it is not for personal reasons even if it is temporarily resides in a person. ever. >> and that is the only way it's being discussed. he couldn't have broken the law because he had the authority. no one in the national security, not even establishment, but no one in a national security role is interested in whether you have the authority or not, they're interested in what has been jeopardized, and i wonder when you read, and not just the picture for the shock value, but when you read the programs that may have been jeopardized. can you take us inside what avril haynes is likely having to undertake in terms of the assessment you would have had to do if you were still there? >> yeah, so listen, the act of classifying, the classification system, you know, has some very specific guidelines. and it isn't casually done either, and it's all about the value and specificity of the information and/or the sources

and methods used to acquire it. and those have levels of protections implied depending on how exquisite, either the information or the access is. so i am sure that team is going through every document, making sure that it understands which pieces of it represent that kind of classified information, and then looking at the impact of loss that usually comes down to what advantage are we deriving from it, whether it is in partnership, in methodology, or in the information itself. and they're breaking it down. they're breaking it down by paragraph. this is not going to be an exercise where they just blanket, over classify something. they will lack at each piece of information. there are professionals who look at classification and

classification levels and they will be combing through this piece by piece. the other thing that they know that i don't think we're talking about much and that is our adversaries and competitors have a voice in this. listen, don't be mistaken. foreign threat actors who now know that information that we deem important has been, was recently, in an unsecured location. they have the wherewithal and the interest in going after that. that day going to be looking at that too. so we're talking about it as though it's specific just to the person donald trump. i'm talking about the reason why we have these rules, the reason why i wrote that op-ed is you don't even have to be going after an individual to know that

this action by any individual is putting the nation at risk, and our adversaries and competitors will take any advantage and we created an opening that is a much lower guard than they typically have to cross. this is a good day. >> when you wrote the op-ed with that warning, how did you know that he would be a national security risk? >> well, i think part was how important it is that you understand what you're protecting. the other is how important it is that you understand that people will be coming after you. and they're pretty slick, and you don't even have to conspire with them in order for them to be able to work magic to try and get your information. so we had a president that had

access to everything, who had in my estimation, not a really complete understanding of what he was protecting, and his engagements, who he works with, you know, the fact that he has foreign businesses, knowing that he would be in situations where he could be bumped by adversaries who would want the information he had. i mean, you just knew that. and all you had to do was apply the need to know that is applied to any officer at any level, to say he just didn't have the need to know, and the remarkable thing about this is if the day came where the nation decided he needed to know, there would be nothing that would keep him from getting proper access to the material that he improperly has been storing. >> well, this is a question i wanted to ask you. i mean, i've talked to a former -- someone who knows and

worked with you, a former senior u.s. intelligence official who said that, if he were a normal president and he said i need these things, can you build me a skip, and can you send out a briefer so i can stay currently on these topics, that may very well have been arranged for him. it feels like where he's in trouble and a risk to national security, and maybe at risk of having committed egregious crimes, maybe violating the espionage act is that he lied about it. i don't know if you read this 40-page filing from last night. it's clear everything you're talking about is in the national security bucket but the questions only begin when you read through how hard they tried and how many lawyers who may now face charges for lying to the fbi lied for him. when you try to profile the motive of that, what explanations do you come up with? >> okay. so the first thing i say there is zero defense.

i cannot imagine a defense for the situation in which we find ourselves. there's just none. there is no justification. there's no excuse, no defense. zero. from a national security and from a person involved. motivation is a much harder thing to ascribe, and i'm usually loathe to say what i think other people are thinking. my experience is that the former president has his agenda, and he will use whatever is at his disposal to advance that. the problem we have here is that depending on what agenda issues forth, he has had at his disposal for a long period of

time information that if he used that information to advance an agenda, it could have devastating consequences to national security. i can't think of a simpler way to say why i think that this moment is so difficult, and that's because there's no justification and knowing who he is and that he doesn't fully understand, but he may not decide to protect if he wanted to do something different. this is a tough situation. i am glad that we have worked so hard to recover the information. but i fear that it has been in, essentially, the public domain for a long time. >> what you are describing is absolutely hair raising, and i just want to be sure i

understand it. "the new york times" has reported that he packed the boxes, so to your point, even if he didn't understand it, he was interested in what he was interested in, and what you're laying out is that the conduct and the recklessness which some of the most sacred classified materials. not necessarily because of what they say but what programs they may reveal or what methods they may reveal may be in his possession. it sounds like it is. if his agenda is served by jeopardizing those things, he will pursue it? >> yeah, i will hope, and i always hope, that the president understands the responsibility he carries. and one of those responsibilities was the protection of national security information, so i will hope that as he conducts the rest of his life he understands the responsibility that he had to protect that information, but i

don't know that there's any reason that he should have taken it. there's no reason that he should have taken it, and i can't think of any reason why he should use it, but for a period of time that opportunity existed if he forgot the responsibility he carries for the rest of his life to protect the information that he had access to. i'll hope that he does. but the circumstance is worrisome. >> did you see him wrestle with those two things, trying to remember the office he held and trying to pursue his own agendas? >> i don't know that i ever thought about it in those terms, but i think where i started where i think the intelligence committee always briefed him responsibly, and what i mean by that is he was the president of the united states, and we treated him as such.

the assumption is always that the president of the united states understands his responsible. in taking those documents out of the building is the first step of showing he didn't. what he's going to do with that information i will hope that it kicks in again. >> do you feel that what you've read in the affidavit and the filing are the first times you've seen him as a threat to u.s. national security and the intelligence community? >> everyone that has access to special information and holds position is a target. anyone who forgets that and acts outside the security rules that are settle up in order to help them protect that presents a threat whether it's a purposeful

one or whether it's an inadvertent one. so if you forget that you're a target, and you don't follow the rules, you've opened yourself and consequentially us up. >> did trump see himself as a target just simply due to the fact you just arctic latelied because of his possession and access to our most sensitive secrets and programs? >> again, i'm always hesitant to say how someone thinks about themselves. i believe the president thought that he was above a lot of rules because he didn't need them. but i also would never presume to know what was in someone's heart. >> when you read that he traveled with boxes of

classified materials on foreign trips and they were carted from hotel room to hotel room, i traveled the world with candy rice as national security adviser and deputy national security adviser, i had a stroke on their behalf when i read that. there's one thing that governs how classified materials are inside a white house, and another when you take a foreign trip, and lot of times, the technology was totally different. we didn't have our blackberries at every stop, sometimes we left them. what in terms of what we're learning were your daily nightmares when you worked in your old job on behalf of someone who didn't think the rules applied to him? >> so in his official capacity, he had a lot of rings of professionals around him to help him execute, to help protect not only him, but the information he possessed and the material he carried with him.

probably worried a bit less about that. now, i go back to what i said, nicolle, and this is the reason why you held your breath is that our adversaries recognize the value of not only individual, but what the individual has and especially physical documents. and you always worry, and there are lots of ways, technical and human to go after things. i think anyone who suggests that this situation of highly classified documents being out of a secure facility relatively unprotected for a long period of time in a known way doesn't -- didn't represent a significant security threat just doesn't understand that there actually are people out there who would

do us harm, and it actually doesn't even take complicity on the part of the actor in order to provide the opening for that damage, and so when i say this problem of lack of understanding is especially difficult, it's because you have to be vigilant, and i don't think that's a word that we would have ascribed to him from a security perspective. >> vigilant, not a word sue gordon would ascribe to donald trump when it comes to handling classified documents, the understatement of the century. coming up, my conversation with one of the key members of the january 6th select committee, congressman adam kinzinger, what lies ahead for kevin mccarthy, and what the january 6th select committee still has up its sleeve. don't go anywhere. committee still has up its sleeve. don't go anywhere.

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american people's interests ahead of his own. that is from an op-ed written by congressman adam kinzinger, one of the key members of the january 6th select committee. i had the opportunity and privilege of speaking with congressman kinzinger about donald trump, trump's cronies in congress, and the red wave that failed to materialize in these midterms. >> tell me what you make of the results on tuesday and if you have any, you know, i know you don't look back very much, but do you wish you'd stayed in the ring. was this election result different than what you thought it might have been when you decided to retire? >> let me first off say, the wishing side of things, i want to be very clear, i got drawn out of my district by democrats in illinois. they drew me out. that said, i'm not sure i was going to run again anyway. i have been in congress for 12 years, and that's a long time and i really am passionate about focusing on this fight broader, more nationwide because when you're in the house, you're just dealing with every day the

messaging votes and all of this kind of stuff. now, in terms of the results, though, it was fantastic. we all expected, i mean, i'll say i'm guilty of this, i expected as we got closer to the election or a few smarter people out there, this was going to be a red wave, the history and everything else. the january 6th committee, even if people don't vote on this issue, it popped the bubble so people started feeling uneasy. i think the paul pelosi attack and the dobbs decision and some other things, and gen z turned out and we had a little bit of a defense of democracy. it's just the beginning. the bottom line is we have to think differently in how to defend democracy. i've talked about an uncomfortable alliance. so republicans and democrats, you might have to actually be friends for a little bit to defend democracy here. doesn't mean you have to agree on everything. but let's think outside of the box. secretary of state races, those were the front lines and will be

the front lines in defending democracy in 2024. every candidate i endorsed won. i think only one of donald trump's he endorsed won. we worked on the madison cawthorn race and other races in convincing democrats, you live in a republican district. if it's ruby red, you should vote in the republican primary and vote at least for somebody that believes in democracy, and you turned out 4 or 5,000 people this that race. that's how we have to think, nicolle, what are the areas we can target that will make a rifle shot difference. >> it's clear that trump crossed lines for you and liz cheney. for me he crossed those lines way before he ever became president, but i was always happy to see more members of my old party feel that he had crossed those lines and fight vigorously alongside democrats

to fight him. why do you feel more people don't feel he crossed their red lines in the republican party? >> you know, part of it is tribalism, right, you know, the second if one of them says, look, i've had enough of donald trump, you get kicked out of your tribe, and i got to tell you, the other tribe, to the extent it exists, the antitrumpers, the democrats, we're not going to accept you because you're coming on too late or maybe you have this one issue i disagree with. you can convince yourself on a moral perspective that you're doing the right thing. you can convince yourself of everything. everybody thinks they're the good guy. you think convince yourself that i have to run again, i have to support donald trump so i survive because somebody worse can come after me. the other thing is, i think it's sheer cowardice. when i got elected, this was 2009, and i remember thinking, if i'm going to ask people to be willing to die for this country

and obviously i'm going to have to take votes on that, i have to be willing to give up my career for the same cause. it's so true. we swear an oath to the constitution, not because what we're going to do is easy, and not because i have to take a poll on should donald trump be impeached. my oath is not to my district. it's to the constitution. and sometime that's going to be hard, and everybody forgets that unfortunately. >> including kevin mccarthy. liz cheney seemed to have a special hatred of how he has betrayed his oath. do you share that? >> oh, i got to tell you, kevin is the biggest disappointment probably of any friend i've ever had. he was a friend. you know, before the election, i started to notice he was defending donald trump more than he was defending his own members of congress, but he's the guy,

he is the entire reason donald trump is still a political figure because in the caucus, in the republican caucus after january 6th, there were some of us speaking out. there was a lot of crickets, people trying to figure out where was this going to be, and the second kevin mccarthy in his cowardice, showed up to mar-a-lago, it changed the tenor in the caucus to, i guess, we're doing this, donald trump is staying. kevin mccarthy is a coward. if he becomes speaker, it will be the worst time of his life and history will not be kind to him. >> what do you think the intervening event was between what he said to you all on the take place that we have all heard now, for mccarthy, impeachment wasn't fast enough. he was an advocate of the 25th amendment, because it would be rid of him faster, and as you said, he single handedly revives trump. >> it's all money. he'll even say it. it was money because we all of a sudden see, i say we, the ten of us that voted for impeachment, we've all kind of made our

little group and somebody sent a picture of him at mar-a-lago the second this thing popped, what is he doing, and of course immediately there was a fundraising thing. and i think all it came down to is it's about raising money, and he always wants to become speaker. great, you may get the title, kevin, congratulations, it's going to be miserable, and history is not going to judge it well. >> how hostage do you think he will be to marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz and those folks. what will that look like? >> he's going to be completely hostage. first off, marjorie taylor greene recently said she's all in with kevin mccarthy. she doesn't say something unless she has been promised something. matt gaetz is against marjorie taylor greene because he wants to be more famous than her. she's stealing his thunder. if he wins, if he gets to 218. we don't know what the majority will be. it's likely there will be a republican majority. any one of those people, you

know, a couple, two or three can deny the 218 votes. he's going to be walking around making deals, cutting every deal he can with the crazies, the freedom club. the question, nicolle, the moderates who are left, i don't know who they are anymore, are they willing to say, kevin, this has gone too far, and we will vote against you if you acquiesce to what this demand is. as moderates, we wanted to get along and govern. the freedom club wants to burn it all down. >> let that sink in, they want to burn it all down. more of my conversation with adam kinzinger after the break. what he says about criminal referrals for donald trump, and just how dangerous cassidy hutchinson could be to the disgraced ex-president. we will be right back. right ba.

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off the january 6th select committee subpoena, the former vice president mike pence saying that congress has quote no right, no right to his testimony. all eyes are on the house select committee as we wait for their final report. and i asked congressman kinzinger about that. >> i want to turn to some of the committee's work and your work on the committee. you guys got him. you had him. you tied him to the violence. you revealed and i called it, you know, three towers, you know, witness after witness after witness after witness that

testify to his knowledge that he had been defeated on election night, witness after witness after witness that testified to his knowledge that the fake electors plot was illegal, witness, after witness after witness that testified to his specific knowledge of the insurrectionists being armed and dangerous and his wanting to be there. what should doj do with all of that evidence? >> oh, look, i mean, so from the committee perspective, the difficulty we always have is, you know, we have a limited time that we could probably investigate this for two more years, and it's kind of what is the end state of what the committee does. i think, in my personal opinion, going into the hearings, are people going to listen, are they going to care. we blew away my own expectations and i think we told the story. donald trump is responsible, and not just for the day of january 6th, that's a minor point. all the stuff leading up to it, and the fact that nothing has changed since. he didn't just sit in his office for 187 minutes on the 6th.

he intentionally resisted pressure to stop it. so what can we do. we're going to probably look at criminal referrals, even though i'll will clear, those are pointless. i think it sends an important message. we'll have the report coming out. the doj now, they have the torch. doj and the american people. so the american people vote for people that actually honor their oath. okay. that's now what we're going to give you. that's your charge. the doj, they have more time and tools, they can enforce more things than we could. i'm fairly certain, not from anything i know. but i'm fairly certain they're going to find some stuff whether it's this, whether georgia has something, whether it's down with the secret documents he didn't have. >> cassidy hutchinson was one of the committee's most important witnesses. and she's today testifying in the georgia investigation. how dangerous is she to donald trump? >> she's very dangerous. i mean, she came forward with,

as you saw specifically in the hearings we had, in the hearing where she was solo, she was able to give us a lot of insight that people like steve bannon could have, people that wouldn't come and talk to us, mark meadows, that doj goes after. so cassidy hutchinson will go down historically as the most important person in this. let me make a broader point, whether it's her or people like alyssa farah, i'll even say my wife who worked in the administration for a while, these republican women that worked for donald trump, each one of them have more courage than every man that works for donald trump combined. these men that worked for trump, a few exceptions are unwilling to speak out. if they speak out, it's nuanced, right, doesn't want to tick anybody off. these women are the ones that have come forward and said, you know, there's a line we can't cross here, so that's been an amazing kind of eye opening thing for me is how courageous

some of these young people are, and i don't think donald trump's going to escape too much from this stuff. >> why do you think the women are more willing to out his corruption and potential criminality? >> i don't know. you know, is it because, you know, the men in his administration are still trying to plot and scheme and everything else, and you know, and some of these women are like, i just can't do it. i don't know what it is, i just know it is. and i know that, you know, they have a moral clarity that obviously some of the men in the administration didn't have, you know, even to like vice president pence. i'm glad he did what his job was on january 6th. i'm glad he's speaking out now. i just wondered for two years ago -- why didn't you speak out. have some courage, and be able to look at yourself in the mirror? >> you know what i think and i

wonder your perspective, having served in the military, he left his men on the field. they are all men in his case, and i've never seen that before. he left his most senior staff, you know, to their own devices with the committee, and he doesn't show up. how do you evaluate that? >> i mean, look, i think donald trump is scared to death of frankly what we're doing, what doj is doing. i think, you know, with vice president pence, i think he looked at this and said, well, i can kind of walk the nuance of i'm not really, you know, the people that are anti-trump, wink and nod, remind them of january 6th, i'm not going to come in and speak to the committee. my people can. so i'm sure everything that, you know, the vice president knows we now know because it came through his folks, but he obviously wants to run for president, and nicolle, here's the interesting thing for me. if he would have fully divorced

donald trump on january 7th, and then just had this, like, moral clarity of that day, put out a new vision for the party, for the country, i think he would be the ron desantis right now, the presumed front runner for the gop. >> i agree. i think the party would have seen him as trumpy enough, he was so loyal for four years, much to my disappointment. i think you're right, in this version of the republican party, he would have inherited it all. let me ask you this, because he said today that your committee, that you have no right to his testimony. do you have reaction to that? >> our committee is not art. our committee is the american people's committee. we happen to be the nine members of congress plus our staff that are doing what we were charged with. but this isn't a testimony for adam kinzinger. it's not a testimony for liz or bennie thompson.

and i'll say this for people who buy that january 6th was nothing, your kids and your grand kids will not believe that. i'm going to guarantee you, they will not believe that, and there's going to be a lot of people running from they ever believed it in the first place that it was nothing. the problem with members of congress is you can't lie to your kids that you never believed it in the first place when you have a record on tv in print and voting. i feel bad for these people. it's going to be embarrassing. >> you cannot lie to your kids about january 6th. wow. coming up for us, what is the remedy for this rise in extremism, violence, and crazy experiences. congressman adam kinzinger has some ideas for us. that is next. for us. that is next

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get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. . when we present our full findings, we will recommend changes to laws and policies to guard against another january 6th. the reason that's imperative is that the forces donald trump ignited that day have not gone away. the militant, intolerant ideologies, the malicious, the alienation, and the disaffection, the weird fantasies and disinformation. they're all still out there. ready to go. >> we're back with republican congressman adam kinzinger, i want to ask you about the weird fantasies and the alienation and the extremism, and i wonder

whether you think a counter extremism approach to that, and whether you think it can be successful without the republican party participation. >> in terms of how to push back and things along that line, i think ha what needs to happen, and this is from the democratic perspective, you have to guard against the temptation to say, well, if donald trump is an authoritarian, and the republicans are authoritarian, we're going to fight back with the same kind of fire, you guys are better than that. okay. trust me. but secondarily, when it comes to things like the qanon, the idea that there's a cult drinking baby's blood, which is nuts, or that everybody that disagrees with you has to be a pedophile, we have to call that stuff out because i think one of the things we learned as qanon grew, i actually spoke out about the first member of congress to speak out that i know of, at least republican, and people

were like, oh, you're just giving it oxygen. that was the old days. the old days when there were three television networks, you didn't want to give it oxygen today. it was already out there huge, so we have to counter that pushback with truth and then also recognize that some people honestly know the truth and just don't want to hear something different or they know -- they just want to stay in their tribe, and it's going to take a psychologist, i think, to kind of teach us how to get people out of that moment. >> you said that you crossed the bridge when you came to it, if trump defied the subpoena. it feels like we're at the bridge. what's the decision for the committee, will you refer him? >> yeah, i don't want to get in front of the committee's announcement on this. obviously we're aware. it's something we're taking very seriously. we've got to go through all the questions. i mean, he's the former president of the united states. we have a limited time left on the committee because our charter basically ends at the end of this congress, so we're

working through that, and we'll come forward with whatever that takes. it's important to be noted, other presidents have come before congressional committees before, so donald trump said he would be happy to come in. come in. tell us what you think. >> what is the new evidence that's been developed in the secret service, the committee in its final public hearing seemed to accuse two members of the secret service of lying. have those lies been cleared up? any referrals for them under consideration? >> again, i don't want to get out in front of what the committee is about to announce or going to announce or not announce because we're putting all of this stuff together. i will tell you, the interesting thing is even as we're putting together our report, parts of the report, everything else. we're continuing this investigative line. i listened in on a deposition even today. there are somebody lying at the secret service. let's be very clear.

there's really interesting goings on at least with some of the people, and we're not going to let that go. the other thing, too, even whatever we cannot finish on the committee, if it's criminal in nature, doj could take that or could, you know, see the report being put out and make a decision to go forward from there. >> our thanks to congressman adam kinzinger. quick break for us. we'll be right back. inzinger quick break for us we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ it's what sanctuary could look like... feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪ the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪ age comes with wisdom. and wisdom comes with benefits. dryer's broken okay...

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that age-old holiday tradition of going to the movies. i had the pleasure of sitting down with whoopi goldberg to talk about a film she is willing into existence. it is called "till," the powerful, heartbreaking story of emmett till and how his mom took the horror of her son's brutal murder and harnessed it into a civil rights mission. that conversation after the break. l rights mission that conversation after the break.

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chapter's in our country's history. the beautiful murder of a 14-year-old boy, emmett till. the year was 1955. till was kidnapped, tortured, he was lynched after being accused of whistling at a white woman in a grocery store. his murder stunned the nation. it ignited the civil rights movement, in part, thanks to his mom who made the gut wrenching decision in her grief to hold an open casket funeral. so the nation and the world could bear witness to this savagery of her son's murder. she spent the rest of her life seeking justice for her beloved boy. she called him beau. the story has largely been lost to history, until right now, thanks to the extraordinary new film "till," simply put, it is a masterpiece. it is already generating lots and lots of oscar buzz. it is essential viewing. my dear friend, academy award

winner whoopi goldberg executive produced the movie. since i have known her, she has been working on making it happen. she also stars in it. whoopi joins us now. since i have known you, you have been willing this into being. >> it's a story black america has known because it's how we send our children off to go see grandparents and aunts and uncles down south, don't forget what happened to emmett, this is how you need to behave when you're down there. for me, emmett's story is the culmination of what institutional racism looks like. this is what institutional racism allows. it allows people to come in your house and take your kids. it allows people to get away with murdering your kids, it allows people to talk to you as though you don't have any value in the world, and given all that's happening, all of the

things that we're seeing, i really wanted to make sure we told this in a way that everyone could see. i tell people, you can bring your 12-year-old to see this, you know, you need to. because if you're going to erase the history that has already been put out there, we need to put it in a film so you can see what this will look like if you don't stop it now. >> you're in the movie, you're maimi's mom. she tells her boy beau, be small. >> they have a different set of rules for negros down there. are you listening? >> yes. >> you have to be extra careful with white people. you can't risk looking at them the wrong way. >> i know. >> beau, be small down there.

>> like this? >> does that still happen? >> yeah. listen, you know, because racism is so volatile, you have to really sort of let people know. and it's still -- i mean, it's not like it doesn't happen now. we've seen it over and over and over, and the fact that this story is 67 years old, you know, 68 years old, means that we haven't gotten it through to people. this is not make anybody feel anything other than you don't ever want this to happen again because if it happens with us, it's going to happen to you. if you're lgbtq kid, if you're a white woman, these issues are

yours too. it goes from racism to all the other isms. it becomes an ism. that's what you don't want. isms come to your door at some point. hopefully people say we don't like that this happened. we think this is bad and we want too do everything we can to make sure it doesn't happen again. that's my hippy pipe dream. the more people who see it the more people who won't forget it and recognize it. >> we see her send her boy off, and we see the most universal piece of maternal intuition. she knows something's wrong. >> yeah. what's wrong, mami? >> we've never been apart this long. >> he's just going to see his cousins. it's not a bad thing to know where he come from. >> chicago is all he needs to know.

>> i don't want him seeing himself the way those people are seen down there. >> those people like me? >> even you left mississippi, mama. >> there's so many moments like that that you want to just jump through the screen and tell her to listen to her wisdom to go get her boy. >> yeah. you know, this happens to ordinary people. this is an ordinary family. you know, there was nothing special about them. they were just a mother and son, you know, and they were thrust into extraordinary circumstances, circumstances that none of us who have children ever want to be in. ever. >> talk about the first excruciating thing she does for her boy when she gets him back? >> well, i mean, she -- when the coffin comes off that train -- >> that scene. >> the sound. that's a mother's anguish. that's a mother's gut wrenching

knowledge of what's happened, you know, and that feeling takes us through the next several scenes, which are some of the most gut wrenching scenes ever, and it's shot beautifully, and it's shot the way it is so that you, the viewer, can stand next to her as she is about to make this decision of what to do for this funeral. >> it seems that she carried him with her her whole life. >> her whole life, until she passed away. this was, you know, the fact that it was so easily done to not just her boy, but a child, that they had no compunction about doing this to a child, and it's, again, it's a place you don't want to be, and it's a

thing that none of us as parents ever want to be in the middle of. you know, your kids want to go see their family. they want to go and have fun, and you know, you don't want to be the one to say, no, don't do it, i'm scared. you want them to have some freedom, and sometimes horrible things can happen, you know. so what do you do? you try to pay as much homage to your child so that people don't ever forget his name. >> there's a thing so today, in wanting people to see with their eyes. truth was a struggle with the deception and lies and racism. >> if you think back to all of the loss that we as a nation have had with a loss of race, what racism brings out, and all the people we've lost, and what they could have done with their lives are they left. we think of all the people, you

know, the trayvon martins, you know, you think of anyone who has lost their life because someone didn't think you looked right. you know. >> the conversation is about emmett till, but it's central to the conversations people still don't want to have today. >> well, you don't have a choice. you know, here's the thing. if you got rid of racism, you wouldn't have to talk about it. but if you stay in it, it's going to continue to be a conversation because people are always going to say, this isn' t right, it doesn't matter what your belief system is. it's not right, and it's not okay. as long as this remains america, people are going to fight to eradicate racism, because it's inherent in our society, unfortunately. >> and she becomes, she becomes

a messenger for all of that. it's not what she wants to do. >> no, she wants her child. >> she wants her baby back, but she becomes someone that everyone wants to see and meet because of the decisions she makes that the country will bear witness to the savagery that her son endured. >> did you caution your son how to conduct himself and behave himself while he was down here in mississippi. >> several times. >> several times. >> do tell us how. >> i will give you a literal description of what i told him, how coming down here he would have to adapt himself to a different way of life. be very careful about how he spoke and to whom he spoke and to always remember to say yes, sir and no, ma'am, if ever an incident should arise where there would be any trouble of any kind with white people if it got to the point where he needed to go down on his knees before him, i told him not to hesitate to do so. like if he bumped into somebody on the street. and they might get belligerent

or something, well, i told him to go ahead and humble himself so as not to get into any trouble. but. >> but what? >> well, i raised him with love for 14 years, my sudden warnings about hate weren't going to get through. >> the film makes clear that through actions she changes the conversation, and then through words she joins the movement. >> yeah. >> what did she hope for? >> well, i think she hoped that we would not have to sit through anything like this again. i think her major hope was that this would never happen to another child, you know, that no other mother would have to go through what she goes through. that was her initial feel, and in the bigger picture, was to say to people, you have a voice. you can stop things like this. if you pay attention, if you

recognize that i am you, and you are me, we can do something. and, you know, progress happens slowly, but it can happen. we've seen it. you know, we've made all kinds of changes, seen all kinds of amazing things happen. now it slips backwards. >> what do you think the aggression is rooted in? >> you don't want me to say it. i think it's him, and that man whose name i won't say. >> he obviously tapped into it. >> let me just say this, you said in 2015, i'll never forget this. he's your president, y'all. you knew that he was tapping into something because it's a call and an answer with him. >> it's not just that. when you're saying to people, you know, you're pro fessing to run companies and businesses and you do it on television, people believe that was his office. they don't know it was a set. they don't know it was a set. he had a good talk and he knew

how to talk on tvp. and -- tv. and he's a good communicator, you know, but i knew because i watched people say, you know, he knows how to run companies, and he knows how to make money, and he knows how to make us better, and you know, he was aspirational. >> to them. >> for them, yeah. >> and i think that when people believe that you can fly, when you get people to believe that you are part of the second coming, people are desperate. he's not god. he hasn't walked on any water. he got sick like everybody else. because of his job, hechs given -- he was given a way to get well quicker.

he doesn't have any answers, and getting rid of history books and changing the way history is told, doesn't change, women are here, gay people are here, you're not getting rid of it by getting rid of history, we're putting it on film. >> that's what this movie does. >> this movie is the same way i learned about anne frank, you watch the movie, oh, my god, i don't like that. if you can't get it in the history book, get it from the film. if you don't get it from the film, you get it from the oral conversation. but the conversation is not stopping. you're not going to stop the conversation. and you can't deny we have a checkered history. this is america. this is what happened. but if we don't stop it from happening, it's going to continue. and if you stop talking about it, and not pointing it out, it is going to continue. yeah. are we perfect? no. this is never going to be a

perfect country. no one candidate is ever going to give you everything you want, but we can do a lot better than we're doing. >> a quick break for us. we'll be right back. doing. >> a quick break for us. we'll be right back.

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>> mamie, beau is growing up, you going to have to let him go. all right, i know that face. that is the face of mama, mind your business and go home. where's my pocketbook. >> mm-hmm. right here. >> oh, there it is. >> you play mamie's mom, when you have the scene, where it's your grief as her mom because you were for beau going down to see his family, i also thought you mentioned trayvon martin, i thought of these large rings of grief. when this happens, it's not, you know, every person whose world is destroyed is a world unto themselves. we see giant circles of grief, and his cousins, their lives are destroyed, and it was this incredible blast radius of grief that the movie tells so beautifully. we almost in the news cover it, but you can get numb to so many

stories, and i thought the movie returned the conversation to the vastness of the grief. >> you talk to eric garner's mom or trayvon martin's mom, these women are swimming this this grief. >> forever. >> forever. you know, and the key is to remember that it's not just us. it's not just us. this is happening to little children all over the country. is it too many guns. are we not paying any attention? we're not paying attention, you know, and we've got to really get our act together because, man, if we go down that other slippery slope, who are we then? if you want to see what that end game of putting all of those people in looks like, go see

"till", and know that you could be next. this could be your life. is that what you really want? >> the film is glorious in its grace and in its ability to just cut through. what is it about, you know, we talk about the news every day for our day jobs. why can't we cut through the way this beautiful film can? >> we had one story to tell, and that's what we're telling. you know, journalists have lots of stories they have to tell. talking heads don't have any of those. they can talk about whatever, and put any spin they want to on it. so, you know, we as a nation have to say, okay, you know what, talking heads are over here. journalist, you're held up here. the fcc can say, you know what, those laws we had in place that said you have to be on point,

you must tell the truth, you have to have three or four things to back it up, that's back in play. >> standards. >> and if you don't have it, you don't talk. you don't report. you can't do this job. >> so not platforming both sides. if you tell a lie, you don't get a spot on the conversation. >> there will continue to be lies because you have all of these different platforms where people can write whatever. you have to be smarter, and it's a lot harder work to swim through the -- >> bill barr's favorite word, the bs. >> but, you know, we may be past all of that now. maybe we're past trying to clean this up. i don't think it can be cleaned up. i think we have to start from scratch. >> are you optimistic that we can do it? >> always. always. >> how? >> because i've seen it. i've seen people pivot.

>> you still believe in the power of voting, and the sanctity of voting? >> i do. too many people died for this. too many people in my life died for the right to vote. so i believe in it. i believe that when you're born in america, that's the only gift they give you. >> that's all you get for free, right. >> it's the only thing you get, and it's yours. it's yours to do with as you please. so i don't want to lose that because if you lose the right to make change, we are so boned, it's not even funny. >> the film, i don't want to spoil things, but it does end with how long it took to pass the emmett till anti-lynching act, it passed this year, 67 years after his murder. >> yeah. >> so to both sides of your point, it works but it takes a very long time. >> but it doesn't have to.

it could go so much faster, if people would just cop to the fact that, yes, this exists, yes, we can do something about it, and yes, i understand that you're equal to me. those three things. yes, it exists, yes, we can do something about it, and, yes, you are my equal, and thus want to be treated as such. i want you to treat me the way you want to be treated. we do those three things, we would be fine. >> do you have a sense of what you've sort of done with this film? >> well, i think we all -- the director and barbara broccoli, and michael, we all know, we know what we wanted to do, and we feel like we've gotten that done. s it is my hope that enough people see it, and also see the movie aspect of it because the young lady that plays his

mother, her name is danielle, is stunning, you know. it's a stunning performance. >> every scene, her eyes are everything. they're her grief, they're her boy. you see her boy on her face because he's always in her thoughts, everything she does is about her baby and the universality of that, of a mother's story is just the most exquisite thing i have ever seen in a film. >> it's a mother's story, and again, when you see it, you see ordinary people, ordinary 14-year-old boy going to see his cousins. he's in his room, you know, this is how everybody lived. we lived as well as we could with what we had. so these are important things to know that this is our story, it's your story. it's her story. it's his story. it's all of our story. these are our children. if you have children, this is your story. if you're a mother, this is your story. if you're a dad, this is your

story. but we are talking about the mother because that is how the world worked for emmett and his mother. it was the two of them, and this is their story and her story of how she honored her son until the second that she died, and all she wanted was for somebody to give him justice. so will we get justice with the movie? no, but maybe she'll have to answer some questions, the woman on the other side of this. i just want her to answer some questions, that's all. there has to be a consequence for this, not taking her life away, what's left of it, but having to say out loud in front of people, yes, this happened because of me. and i am devastated. >> you want her to see the

movie. >> yeah. i would like her to see the movie. >> and we will be right back. e movie. >> and we will be right back

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and i d d so my y quesonons coueouout hicacase.y y son, ♪ call one eight hundred, cacalledhehe bars s filion and i d d soit was the best call coueouout hii could've made. call the barnes firm aand find out what your case all ccould be worth.uld've made. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ to the till family, we remain in awe of your courage to find purpose through your pain. to find purpose through your pain. but law is not just about the past. it's about the present. and our future as well. >> president joe biden in the rose garden this year after

signing the emmett till antilynching act. officially 67 years later, making lynching a federal hate crime. but that it took that long to make that happen is shocking, along with the fact that three republicans voted against the measure. joining our conversation, eddie glaude, chair of the department of african-american studies at princeton university, and an msnbc political analyst. we'll get with all that is broken but we should start with the divine. i know you have seen "till." i watched it tuesday night, and i'm still wracked and it took me a minute to get myself together to talk to whoopi about it. tell me your thoughts on the movie. >> it took myself a while to get it together. daniel detwiler, as mamie till.

is just extraordinary in her performance. what did we see? we saw the murder of innocence. but we also saw, what, mamie till mobley's courage, her conviction, and her faith, and those three things in so many ways gave birth to the modern civil rights movement. in some ways, nicolle, the murder, the lynching of emmett till was the south's answer to brown v. board of education. and the response to the murder, the photos in september 1975 was the mass mobilization of ordinary people, it's an extraordinary people to capture an extraordinary moment. >> to see a mother put her baby boy on a train and tell him to be small and the first of horrors that she goes through, the second is her primal scream

when her baby comes home in a casket in a wood box, and some of what we have covered together, i think, is this sort of collective primal scream, at what feels like regression, and going back, that there are unsanctioned moments of flagrant racism from sitting republican senators. mr. tuberville. that they don't have the consequence of a political price. if anything, they have political elevation, and i watched this movie in horror and in awe but also in deep fear that we're going back in the wrong direction. >> and you remember in the film, nicolle, ms. till had a premonition. she knew her baby wasn't going to come home. she knew if she sent him south something bad was going to happen to him. and the moment in the coroner's room where she feels, she takes her hand and runs her fingers

across every part of her body and cries a deep guttural cry. and then to the aunt who was in mississippi who felt like she couldn't look at the body. she says, no, we have to look. we have to look. and, you know, we're talking about this in the context, i just received a mailer from steven miller's organization talking about biden and the radical left are discriminating against white americans and asian americans. just blatant racism, nicolle, and then i'm thinking about the fact that emmett till's memorial marker has had to be replaced four times in mississippi. the first one was thrown into the river. the second and third one was riddled with bullets. the last one they had to put up, i'm talking about right now, nicolle, they had to put up a bullet proof memorial. so when you talk about the present nature of this, there's a line, there's a line from

william faulkner in 1955 in response to the murder of emmett till, if we in america have reached a point in our desperate culture when we must murder children, we won't survive. and probably shouldn't. >> whenever you say really quick i get nervous. you don't ever have to be really quick with us. the film, i mean, wrecked is the only word i can think of, and it cracks you open, but the most shocking things when the black screen comes up and you see that the antilynching act passed this year. it took 67 years to pass antilynching federal legislation. i remember being aware of that, but putting it out there in this moment feels really really important. >> yeah, you know, we've never really grappled with, i think, fundamentally with our dead in

this regard. and one of the horrors, i remember as we have talked about this over the trials and tribulations over the last few years, i felt so angry because it feels as if sometimes the country just runs over our dead, runs past them, plays fast and loose. the fact that it took 67 years, and we still don't have, they made a slight mistake. carolyn bryant said she did not lie, she didn't say that. she hasn't admitted it, and we still don't have justice. in some ways, the film tries to in some ways vindicate this young man, that he did not play a role in his murder because some people think he did, and so, you know, the fact that we have waited this long shows how corrupt we are when it comes to this matter. how corrosive it is. how monstrous we have been, and how monstrous we can be, it seems. >> i had a really long conversation with whoopi, and

we're going to show as much of it as we can here. i would love you to be part of those conversations, and put it all together somewhere because it's really important, and your perspectives are really important to me. thank you so much for spending some time with us today. >> thank you. a quick break for us, we'll be right back. k for us, we'll be right back.

with anti-semitism and hate flaring up all across our country and a reckoning underway what we as citizens of the democracy want the nation to

look like going forward, along comes "till," were whoopi and her coproducer, this was a labor of love, a passion project that was many years in the making. i had the chance to speak with mr. bochamp whose journey began with a documentary he made in 2005, where we hear about the real mamie till about her gut wrenching decision to hold an open casket funeral for her son, a decision that would change history. >> well, i looked to mr. rainer, and mr. rainer wanted to know was i going to have the casket opened. i said, oh, yes, we're going to open the casket. he said, well, ms. bradley, do

you want me to do something for the face, do you want me to try to fix it up. i said no, let the people see what i see. i said i want the world to see this. >> that's extraordinary, extraordinary woman. so the men who conducted that interview with mamie was documentary film maker, keith, and he joins us now, he is the cowriter and producer of till. also joining us the reverend of al sharpton, host of "politics nation" and president of the action network. i said this to whoopi yesterday, film is a masterpiece. it wrecks me to watch the film and mamie. tell me your story of how you came to make the movie. >> the movie itself has taken me 29 years. close to 20 years with fred, and

whoopi goldberg. in 1955 and '56, she did have two movie deals but the film was never made. throughout her 47 years of struggle, fighting to get justice for her son, she had also tried to get this film made. and so i can honestly tell you, it's quite rewarding to be able to fulfill this particular promise that was given to her before she passed away that we would do all that we can to make sure that this story has a broader platform so the world can be awakened again by the murder and the legacy of emmett till. >> you know, something that i talked to whoopi about yesterday was this clarity that she has, and everything that she does, her decision to go to mississippi for the trial, her decision to do what she's telling you there, have the

casket open. the time when she says, leave us alone, and she's talking about her and her son in the coroner's office, and she spends that time with her. she describes, you know, touching every part of him. and then she goes out and brings the cameras in because she wants people to believe what they see with their own eyes. how much do you feel that message is needed today, keith? >> well, i think we're seeing it today. you know, in particular, the george floyd case, the young lady who had her cell phone and decided to make this courageous decision to film what she saw, that was an extension of the work of mother mobley, and we see this time and time again. we have been seeing this unfortunately recently. it is not naturally for us to see death in realtime, but think about this, if this young lady did not take out her phone to film what was going on with

george floyd, would we have ever known of his story? and so when you think about what has happened in this country and how technology has, of course, evolved over the years, what we're seeing today is nothing different than what we saw back in 1955. when mother mobley made the courageous decision to allow photographers into the coroner's office to actually take pictures of emmett till's corpse, and so i'm truly, you know, overwhelmed by the response we have been receiving about this film. but this is what mother mobley wanted. she wanted the world to be awakened once again to the atrocities that we're continuing to face in this country and today. rev, something whoopi and i talked about yesterday is moms don't ever want this to become their life's work.

they don't ever want this to be what they're doing instead of raising their sons or daughters, but in a lot of ways, many moms have followed in her foot steps, and you know all of them. your thoughts? >> yeah, i do know just about all of them, including the george floyd family. i did his eulogy and led a lot of the marches, but i also got to know mamie, the mother of emmett till. i was only 1 year old when it happened, but through her continued involvement, she came to national action network several times, one time to comfort the family of james bird jr. who was dragged to death in jasper, texas, and i can say that she totally trusted and believed that keith would one day get this out. i remember doing things with keith at the u.n., keith was like her son, in many ways, i guess he was almost like what

emmett would have been. i'm proud of him and whoopi for getting it out. i was able in the years i got to know mamie and worked with her cousins and all the foundation to know how important this was to her. the one thing i remember, nicolle, and i shared this with keith is when i was a teenager and joined the civil rights movement in the north, rosa parks said when she sat in front of the bus, a year after emmett till, and they told her to get up, she said she thought about getting up, but she couldn't get up. she thought about emmett till. that's how significant mamie till mobley, it was the direct reason rosa parks didn't get off that bus, and it took all of these years, but thank god for a person like keith and mamie, the story is out, so people understand. it didn't start with george floyd. it continues with george floyd. it started when a courageous woman opened that casket.

and starting to expose what we have to deal with and why we have to deal with racism in this country. the story can't be told without the story of mamie till mobley. >> keith it made me cry when the rev said that, how do you feel when he says that, that she thought of you like a son? >> you know, i was very young when mother mobley and i was together. she was my mentor for eight and a half years until she took her last breath, and this, you know, it's a sense of fulfillment. i'm battling a lot of emotions. we lost a lot of people along the way, the people i interviewed, that led to the reopening of the case had passed on, so you have that question in your head, are you doing the right thing, are you second guessing why you're here, going through all of the emotions. one thing i know for sure is it

is very important that we continue to tell emmett's story until man's consciousness is risen. only then that would mean justice for emmett till. >> rev, what was watching this film like for you? you know the story. the film is, it transports you, and even if you are familiar with it, i wonder what that was like? >> it reminded me of how we had to be of two minds in this country. i was born and raised in brooklyn, new york, but my mother was from alabama. and when we would visit her folks in alabama, we literally, as mamie till mobley had to do, be taught how to act down there. can you imagine the pain and humiliation of a mother having to tell their child that you have to act a certain way to accommodate people's hatred of you. and the pain that must be inside of them to have to tell their

child, don't act normal. you have to accommodate other people's ugliness, and i think for them to put it in the movie is so important, for people to understand how you broke people's spirit to where they had to treat their kids a certain way to accommodate being treated in an inhumane way. that is a very very strong and awesome burden that people had to carry. but they did, and mamie represented that. >> keith, what do you want people to take from the experience of watching this film? >> well, i would like for people who go out to see this film to understand that this is not just a movie. it's a movement. it's a movement to wrongs that in the past when it comes to civil rights in this country. look. the family and i are still fighting for justice for emmett. now that there's one person

who's still remaining who can be held accountable for the kidnapping and murder of emmett till i think we need to exhaust every avenue. he was the catalyst that sparked the american civil rights movement and deserves more. we need to uphold the legacy of the late till and not only seeking justice for the lynching of her son but the wrongs that have been done in this country. we need to expose them and be corrected. >> keith, reverend, i hope this is a conversation that we can continue over many, many weeks and months. congratulations on the film. >> thank you. >> a quick break for us. we'll be right back.

[newscast audio] hello, world. or is it goodbye?

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on that day will live in infamy. i got up that morning and some reason we couldn't get out of that house. we were supposed to meet moses down at 12th street station. we could hear the whistle-blowing as we got to the steps. he tore up the steps. i said, wait a minute. i said you didn't kiss me good-bye. where are you going? how do i know i'll ever see you again? he said, oh mama. he really scolded me. i wondered why i said a dumb thing like that. but he turned around and came back. gave me the kiss and then he gave me his watch. he said take this watch. i won't need it where i'm going. that's the real mamie till

mobly. it would be the last time she saw her beautiful boy live. hug your loved ones tight. our thanks to my friend whoopie goldberg, a producer and star of the new film. thank you for letting us into your homes. from us here, we wish you a happy and peaceful holiday weekend.

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good morning. welcome to a special holiday edition of "morning joe." we hope you had a great thanksgiving. over the next two hours we are