welcome back to "morning joe."

on this day after thanksgiving, we continue with some of our favorite conversations over the past months including joe's interview with author margaret atwood and the scary parallels between her world of ""the handmaid's tale"" and reality. plus roger bennett stopped by with his book on the greatest soccer legends of all times. but first, he's the beloved star of "star trek," a recent space traveler, and a link legend. and now william shatner is on his next big project, the release of his new book entitled "boldly go: reflections of a life of awe and wonder." in a collection of fascinating and inspiring essays, shatner reflects on the key events from his 91 years of life focusing on our fragile bond with nature and celebrating the joy that comes from always being open to learning new things. we spoke with him last month.

>> i read a headline about a year ago that said william shatner is 90. i'm, like, okay that's a misprint, maybe 75. >> reversed. 60. >> exactly. so i read a quote and i loved so it much that i wrote it down of something that you had said upon turning 90, a realization, and you said nothing matters in the end. what goes up must come down." and mika and i saw that quote and we were, like, my god, if we had only known that earlier in our life, it really does put things into perspective. and really -- >> the laws of gravity. >> a book where you can stop and look at the wonders of the world and just say wow. >> saying wow. that's the critical importance. so "boldly go's" a thought and i've tried to dramatize it with

elements of my own life, about how the universe is out there and purportedly taking care of you and if you can vibrate in conjunction with the universe by any means -- prayer, meditation, blow the tibetan horn, say ohm -- or being aware with our connection with that vibrating universe, which is also vibrating earth of the beauty of earth, if you can connect with that, you're living the life i think you're supposed to live. >> hmm. so i love the different chapters, what you focus on. you have so much in common with my family lines. your grandparents are immigrants from eastern europe. >> lithuanian. >> you went to miguel, my father, my mother, immigrants from eastern europe. my dad went to miguel. and my mother had an incredible affinity for nature. i remember once her taking the time to stop in the middle of a

conversation and pick up a spider and bring it out the back door of the house and set it free. you have a chapter that says listen to the animals. tell us about it. >> well, everything is trying to communicate with themselves and with the things around them, and they're speaking a language that sometimes we get a glimmer of understanding. we hear the fish talk and the whales sing and the dogs bark and the horse giving you nonverbal signals. the earth is communicating all the time. we've just begun to understand, for example, how trees communicate with each other. not only with pheromones being drifted downwind and saying the bugs are attacking me, make your sap a little more acidic or whatever it is they do, but they're also now we've discovered sending

electrochemical signals from the fungi. so electrochemical signals between trees are the same as in our dendrites in our head. how connected to a tree are we? the imagination of 5 billion years of growth, of evolution, has brought about this extraordinary beauty and fertility on earth that we are so arrogant that we've begun to destroy it. >> given the age we live in, the culture so skewed to people who are much younger than you or i, what have you learned about yourself, your life, and living your life over the past decade since you were 80 years of age? >> it all boils down to commonality. we hear these things, it's over

so quickly. it's over so quickly when you subtract the years of growing up and then your fragility when you're older. i mean, you have, what, 40, 50 years of life, and then you die and essentially it's meaningless. so you've got to make those few years count, not only for your happiness and your awareness, because one of the things i saw coming down from space was how insignificant this planet is, how insignificant we are on this planet, and yet we have awareness. we are aware of the awe and wonder. we're aware of our insignificance. i think it's the only entity on that's right thinks that way, we think that, but of course we don't know exactly, and we're 5 billion years in evolution and the solar system. but the universe is three times, as far as we know, three times

that old. so other things were happening. what was happening during all that time where other worlds evolved and became more intelligent and our brains are based on survival so we're this mixture of good and bad, but can you purify over more years? there's so many beautiful burning questions in our life that far exceed the pettiness of all the things we see around us. >> you know, it's so fascinating, you talk about how insignificant we are not only as a planet but also as individuals. that's something that frightens you as a teenager. that would frighten me as a teenager. oh, my god, i'm so small. i'm like dust. and yet there's something extraordinarily liberating about that. philosophers have talked about this for centuries that, when you recognize your place, when you recognize the

insignificance, when you look at nature and look at the earth, as you had an extraordinary opportunity to do, through humility, that is liberating. talk about that if you will. >> well, that's the perfect word. if we were just even less arrogant about we are the keepers of nature, we're not. we're part of this ongoing thing. when you think of the 5 billion years of evolution, and as we speak, things are going extinct, beautiful things that we've never seen, insects -- i drove here in los angeles up about the san joaquin valley recently making a trip up to san francisco and back, and ip i had one insect splat on my windshield. it's supposed to be -- you can't drive with all the insects that

meet their death on your windshield. one. we're killing everything. and through our arrogance. if we had a thimble full of humility about our place in nature and our place with other human -- every other part of our endeavor is meaningless when we have an existential threat by our lack of humility. >> so, bill, it feels just about a year ago your trip to space, and you talk about the beauty of it and being overwhelmed by it, but you also are struck by a word you used a few moments ago, grief. tell us why that dichotomy, you were moved by both the beauty and by the grief you felt by that trip. >> i saw -- i've been an ecologist since the book "silent spring." and that was 50, 60 years ago, and i was terribly moved by it and warmed by it and was talking about it even then.

and of course there were all kinds of voices saying it's not happening. the grief i felt was the bu tu -- beauty that i know the earth has and is and expresses itself all the time, a tree is talking to you when it moves its leaves, dogs bark and tell you things that are meaningful, doctor recently said i was watching my dog looking at the sink, looking, looking at the sink. why is he looking at -- he's telling me he's thirsty! and the dog speaking -- how do lions plan an attack on an animal they need to kill to eat? how do they do it without language? there's this whole communication going on in nature that we're so unaware of, and it's dying. it's in danger of being extinct. that's the grief. >> you know, the last chapter of the book is entitled "when i'm

gone," and you write, "i'm blessed to know that some people will miss me when i'm gone, but more and more, i think about what i will miss. i love life, every precious moment of it. i will miss it. i will miss the sun in the sky. i will miss voraciously tearing through pages of a new book. i will even miss the hideous los angeles traffic, because it is part of the miracle of this ineffable world of ours. it's not a great part but it's all part of a rich tapestry, isn't it?" lovely. >> let me ask you about this because mika noticed, and i certainly noticed, her mom just passed away. she had parkinson's and 09 years old. but every morning she woke up and she would -- she would hand us books, whether it was steve jobs eby i don't go fi or a bob dylan biography.

she kept doing her artwork. and mika said one of the things that filled her with awe was the fact her mom till the very end, she was not ready to die, she was not ready to go, she wanted to be here, and that's not something that made me sad, that's something that made her celebrate the fact that her mother remained so curious and, like you, able to say "wow" after seeing all the things that you've seen. talk about where that comes from, that curiosity that still springs from you at 91. >> i was recently given an award for lifetime achievement, oh, what does that mean, lifetime achievement award? just by living, you know? just by breathing and talking to each other like we are now. i mean, that's an award right there. i mean, what is a lifetime achievement -- what i have achieved in life that deserves

an award that the person i meet on the street shouldn't have? and if there was any -- and this is what i said accepting the award, if there was anything that i was -- don't want to use the word proud but a little self-satisfaction, was this inner child that we have, it purportedly starts around the age of 3 and goes to 7, 8, 9, and then life begins to dull that curiosity, that -- oh, what's that mom? why is is sky blue? i stumbled and i got to walk fast. everything about a child is new and fresh and open. if you can keep that inner child, don't let it get sour and callused, if you can sustain the "oh, wow" factor around everything, right now, i don't know whether you can hear, my dog is barking.

i am going to protect you. it's his job. he's there. proudly protecting this thing from -- you don't know, coyotes -- you never know what a coyote will do. you know? it's a language. it's going on all around us. to miss even when she was trembling and weak, she could hear the sounds of her daughter saying i love you. love. at the last moment in this documentary on this trip i took into space, jeff bezos hugs me. i'd been going on about we're nothing by we're aware and that awareness is our gift, and then he hugged me. i thought, that's the last key -- love. let us not forget that your mother just was empowered by your love for her.

it was everything. her daughter loved her. and what does that mean? your time, your sacrifice. you were everything to her. that made her life viable. now that i've reduced you to tears -- >> oh, my lord. yes, you have. thank you. >> thank you so much. it's been so great having you here. and your dog is actually trying to tell you've spoken with us long enough. pay attention to him. >> the new book is entitled "boldly go: reflections on a life of awe and wonder." william shatner, or bill, thank you very, very much, for being on. thank you for your kind words. >> thank you. i admire your program -- i admire your program very much. take care, everybody. >> thank you so much. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."

[newscast audio] hello, world. or is it goodbye? you know, it seems like hope and trust are in short supply. [clap] now, as businesses we can blame and shame. or [whistles]... we can make a change. [clap] we can make work, work for our communities. create more equal opportunities. [clap] maybe, just maybe, get a bit more unity. ♪ let's have less cancellation and more conversation. prioritize conservation. and... empower future generations! [clap] [chuckles] let's question again what we think we know. use our power and our people... to pay back what we owe! [clap] ♪

it's time for business to show its true worth. because it's not goodbye, world. it's hello, team earth. [clap] now, let's get down to business.

earlier this year, joe sat down with a legendary author margaret atwood, ahead of her latest book, "burning questions."

their wide-ranging conversation was conducted before that leaked draft majority opinion published by politico that would overturn roe v. wade. atwood addressed that bombshell in a piece for "the atlantic" entitled, "i invented gilead, the supreme court is making it real. i thought i was writing fiction in "the handmaid's tale."" joe spoke with her about ukraine to the influence of the far right on society. >> i wanted to ask you about the time period that your essays cover, 2004 to 2020. i try to explain to my children how boring our life was. i was born basically in a middle-class family in the middle of the postwar world, and my children had been through a couple economic crashes, been through 9/11, been through a pandemic. you write about all of this.

and it's hard to explain to them just how tumultuous the last 20 years have been in the context of their own lives. >> that's true. but we had a kind of rest period, but it was preceded by the depression, and then world war ii, which was horrific, and i have to say don't underestimate russia. so and then we had the '50s, this was boom time, and we invented a lot of vaccines because before that period there were all these diseases that just ripped through and quarantine was normal. so a lot of the stuff that's been happening feels normal to me but not for anybody younger. for anybody younger, it feels abnormal, like what has happened?

somebody said when trump was elected, a young person said this is the worst thing that's ever happened. i said, no, it's not. it can get much worse. >> one of the things that was so disorienting to me, and you write about it being disorienting to you, about us walking through this strange land of post truth. and i've been struck since the ukrainian -- the russian invasion of ukraine began how perhaps there has been a return to some basic standards of truth in the west, in the united states, across europe in places like hungary. >> i agree, and we're seeing an uptick for liberal democracy again after a lot of eye rolling and people saying it doesn't work. what's the alternative? well, we're getting a good look

at it, and people shouldn't loosely throw around the word tyranny without knowing what that really means. so the other thing that i lived through was the cold war, which went on for quite a while, and i was in behind the iron curtain during that. and whatever we have in liberal democracies now is nothing close. and we're seeing a big shutdown in russia right now. we're seeing the press being censored, we're seeing very heavy-handed control of news. but, again, we revert to orwell, there is truth, and if there isn't any truth, it's just a case of who's got the biggest megaphone. so it is the bill of the media to try to find out the truth and to communicate it. >> and you say in tell the

truth, you call yourself a screaming opt mist, one of the very few things that my wife is irritated by me about. she thinks i'm a bit too pollyannish at times. but you say you are a screaming opt mist. do you remain a screaming optimist even now? >> what's the alternative? >> right. >> so either you have to have hope, in which case you do something, or you don't have any hope, in which case you do nothing, you just say no or yes. i would rather take an optimistic position. you also have to be realistic. you have to look at what you're actually dealing with. but unless you have hope, it gets worse. >> it seems to me in reading these essays and following you, it seems that you ask some of

the questions during the me-too movement that started in 2017 that i often hear from my wife. and you ask the question why have accountability and transparency been framed as antithetical to women's rights? mika has asked the question before. since when did due process and the search for truth become something that we women should be fearful of? explain that. >> you know, we should not be. and as i've been saying, truth is now having an uptick. we are seeing a return to the idea that you have to base your statements and actions on something real. and the people involved in the high-profile cases like the weinstein, the epstein, and the cosby did that, the reporters,

went for the truth, went for the documents. and there were trials. we got to hear the evidence. we got to hear the case. and that is what we mean by that democratic belly, which is also in the universal declaration of human rights, let's hear the evidence. let's hear what people have to say about what actually happened. so that's what all that was about. but i think we're moving away from that now because we've had a good look at the alternative. we've had a good look at the censorship and spinning that's been going on behind we won't call it the iron curtain or the putin curtain. try saying that fast. >> but when you say that accountability and transparency has been framed as antithetical to women's rights, it speaks of

an illiberalism on the left. we've seen an illiberalism on the right. >> true. >> and i'm just wondering, do you think we're moving through that stage where liberal democracy, where rationality, where questioning the hard truths even when they're uncomfort to believe whatever side we're on perhaps may be getting a bit of a comeback? >> i certainly hope so. i see america drawing together at least around the ukraine issue. but, again, i think america got dozy. i think it took for granted its number-one position and started fighting -- started a lot of infighting. and quite frankly, you can't afford that. so let me draw a little circle for you. draw a circle. up at the top you put tyranny. down at the bottom you put

chaos. and to the -- through the midyoul put liberal democracy and that's essentially the happiest place to be. yeah. then you put some arrows going up both on the left and the right toward tyranny and some arrows going down on the left and the right towards chaos. and all of those are demonstrable from history. so where you want to be is in the middle. unfortunately, the middle is the place where both sides shoot at you. >> one of your speeches that we printed in this collection of essays was "we hang by a thread," a speech you gave on october 19th, 2016, 20 days before the election of donald trump. and you said, "during this campaign, we've seen an outpouring of misogyny not seen

since the witchcraft trials of the 17th century." and i am curious because we are all asked this question so often, how are we doing? how is america doing? and my question to you is five, six years after you gave that speech, are we still hanging by that thread? have we come out on the other side in some ways better than you expected or are we still hanging by that thread? >> i would not say that we have come out of it in shining form, and i'm looking at some of the laws that are being passed in various states there. i'm thinking of florida. they just recently -- i'm thinking of texas. so, no, i don't think so. but it may be so that people might be coming awake to the

fact that they need to get it together, read the universal declaration of rights, stop picking on people for being different, and honor the idea of democracy, which means that if you're a citizen you should be able to vote. >> you also talk about your write progress says, which i know a lot of novelists, a lot of writers will be fascinated by. there was a moment in -- i'm a huge beatles fan and there was a moment in peter jackson's documentary "get back" with george harrison ghost to john lennon and said you tell me when i sit down and begin to write a song i need to end it while sitting there. that's not the process for "handmaid's tale" where you came

up with an idea but then you write that you sat on it for a very long time. can you tell our viewers why you did? >> well, i always thought it was too nutty. nobody would believe this. but, hey. yeah. i thought it was too crazy. remember when this was. it was the early '80s, so we had had a lot of turmoil in the '60s. i was sitting in cambridge, massachusetts, during the cuban missile crisis, then we had all the vietnam uproar, and then we had summer of love, and then we had -- that didn't last very long -- then the women's movement hitting the public view in the '60s and into the '70s. '80 ronald reagan gets elected

and the rise of the religious right as a political force begin, and people were saying pretty much the program, the outfits, but pretty much the program that i then enacted in the hand maid's tale. so if you want women to go back into the home, how do you stuff them back in there since they're all running around and having jobs and money and things? you go back to about 1850. but i thought, all right, this is just too crazy. and i startled writing a different novel which didn't work out and the message was clear, okay, you have to do "the handmaid's tale" or else the powers -- the powers where i get my ideas is not -- are not going to let you write any novel but

"the handmaid's tale" so i started it in west berlin encircled by the famous wall. >> jeice conversation with the legendary margaret atwood. up next, our friend roger bennett attempts to rank soccer's top you're watching a special holiday edition of "morning joe." research shows people remember commercials with nostalgia. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's one that'll really take you back. wow! what'd you get, ryan? it's customized home insurance from liberty mutual!!! what does it do, bud? it customizes our home insurance so we only pay for what we need! and what did you get, mike? i got a bike. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

ever wonder why they call it the american dream... and not the american goal? announcer: derek jeter ...or plan? maybe... it's because in dreams, you can do anything. in dreams... you can hold your entire world in the palm of your hand. and turn time inside out... again and again. and you can do it all with your eyes wide open.

i like it now just for kids. >> a good name. >> try it and let me know what you think, okay. just for kicks. >> all right. who makes it into the hall of fame? the most popular sport on the planet, is it messi, ronaldo, or maybe an older legend of the game? that is the monumental task that a monumental man -- >> well -- >> the soccer lover behind a pod cost took on in their new book "gods of soccer." the host of "men in blazers," roger bennett is here. >> it's just -- >> this is beautiful. >> you're a beautiful man. look at the legs. it's been three years. >> this is good. this is a good look. >> the full publication date and the world cup is just 40 day ace

way. >> 40 day ace way. >> it's weird for many reasons. the world cup is like a soccer bomb to which the whole world is invited, the most thrilling aspect. every four years, heroes, goals scored. tattoos. but it's in qatar, slightly challenged place, smaller than connecticut, population of 1.5 million human beings descend upon it, seems to be about as ready as the fire festival. watch it from home, america. savor it. we'll work out the moral conundrums of why it's in qatar for corrupt reasons. >> a bombing kickoff as well. >> no alcohol. soccer fans will have an issue with that. >> what? >> yeah. >> let's remember where we are. >> i'm not sure if the game is legal unless you can get

inebriated watching. but qatar makes it difficult, but it's still for millions of people around the world, for me, i mark my live by world cups. every four years. 1987, i work back from the world cup in 1986. >> exactly. >> when we've written this book, america is now a proper football nation. when i first came on, barnacle would look at me from afar and be, like, why are we not talking about baseball, an american sport? >> right. >> he still does. >> i saw an article the other day because he said soccer is so boring compared to baseball. i'm sitting there, a 0-0 playoff game. we love talking about it. >> god love barnacle and his minority opinion. they didn't want me when i first

came on. americans are becoming -- the age of 30, the third biggest sport in america. i'm not saying it's because of "morning joe" being a pioneer every monday with -- >> every monday. i will say, joe scarborough got me into it in 2006. funny that you say, i know exactly where i was in 2006, watching zidane. converted me to the beautiful game. 2010, 2014. it is incredible how the world cups have tied -- i wonder what it's going to be like in november. >> it's the greatest spy of collective memory. that's what the world cup is. america did fall in love in 2014. and our book is really trying to give any reader, young or old, the dna of -- who's pele? who is mia hamm? we tell 100 great lives of

stories of endurance, glory, tenacity, of wonder. it's a beautiful book. i think people read this book also -- >> please, really quickly, zidane, where does he fit in your countdown? >> it's an afl bet cal book, joe. >> oh. >> oh! afl bet cal. alphabetical. >> that's the joy of the book. 100 greatest players is completely ridiculous. that's the joy of football. you come up with your 100, it's completely and utterly subjective, then you defend it with the heat of a thousand suns. >> if you were publishing in a couple years, is he up there in the greats? the viking from norway? >> he's an incredible human being. he's like a nordic vik ing who smites the ball as if he's trying to take

vengeance for his father who fell in battle. i've interviewed him. i said when you hit that ball -- >> the striking. >> he's been not just scoring goals but it will be roger maris' home run record, the hot dog record of joey. >> we get the idea. >> this guy is incredible. >> anger. i think everything is possible. >> he's just a great player. >> these are great stories. >> roger, even the new fans to the game know pele and mia hamm. give us a story of an average fan would not know. >> to me football, when two teams take the field, their nations' histories and politics and conscience take the field along side of them. so there are stories in this

book that are more about tenacity than about glory. the one that stands out for me is a woman, briana scurry, who grew up in minnesota, the only african american on every team. when she shows you every youth team she ever played on, she was the only african american face. she played in that culture, broke through, won the world cup with the united states, in the soccer hall of fame. that kind of tenacity, singular path, that kind of pioneering to me, that is the joy of football. it's more than the goals, the ripped-off shirts, the abs, the six-packs, it's the human endurance. the book is packed with it. >> a guy i've always been fascinated by because he played for a team and a country that had deep, deep mental problems, maybe one of the greatest teams ever fielded. i'm absolutely fascinated by the netherlands '74 and '78 teams and coif, maybe the greatest

player ever on the greatest team ever. and they were so in their heads. >> they were. >> both times. >> winning for them was not the point. it was the beauty of the game. they call it picasso in cleats and you saw time and space and just an avant-garde style, bent the force of the ball to his will, would have a pack of cigarettes at halftime and do it again. honestly like watching an elite painter, a maestro work. i caught the end of his career as a kid, this stylish human being. his idea of football is he birthed the modern idea of football. before then it was men huffing and puffing trying to fight each other on an open pitch. he elevated it. >> he saw things before they happened. he showed up at camp when he was 17 or 18, all these veterans there, and basically from the first day he said no, no, no, you don't do it that way, you do it this way. just a revolutionary.

>> he simplified football even while making it complicated. the dutch team, sparta, manchester city, his idea is infused. they're all in here. america has fallen in love with this sport and the love really started about 2010, 2014, when you started the world cups and watched the premier league on a regular basis, this book allows you ta take on that dna of having lived the full 20th century of football, all of those stories. these stories are more than just sporting. >> they're great stories. inspirational. >> important question. i told you joey scarborough and his friends, younger kids, but they got converted to football through fifa, playing the video game fifa. i'm just curious, do you play

fifa? i'll play you after the hour. >> have you downloaded the new one? >> i've not slept in five years. >> for hours. hours. >> willie, you don't know this, but remember when the show started i get got the headphones and i fought with a 9-year-old bulgarian "call of duty" at 3:30, which was oddly lifted for "house of cards." but these 9-year-old kids in bulgaria would be mocking me. so now after the show, i need 30 minutes. >> 30? okay? 30 minutes? >> my brain goes neutral. i eel just start writing whatever. so i sit down and play fifa now because my kids all play fifa. >> honestly. >> i'm tired of losing 19-0 to my kids, so i said -- >> you should see it. >> i'm curious, though, fifa '23, i've heard good reviews, bad reviews.

what do you think? >> very quickly, the women's team in america made america fall in love with football. the internet allowed us to stick to the sport. nbc broadcasting the premier league. e.a. sports, the silent hand that grew the game. bringing kids like joey to european football and teams. without that, that's been one of the greatest drivers, a phenomenon. all of it has come together to make america finally a proper football nation. we just need to win the men's world cup in my lifetime. >> there you go. the book is entitled "the gods of soccer." roger, thank you. love the book. thank you very much. much.

[ applause ] all right, we're going to close out this morning with a special musical performance.

here are jewel and wycliffe john performing "redemption song." ♪ old pirate chest, yes, them rob i sold i to the merchant ship ♪ ♪ minutes after they took i from the bottomless pit ♪ ♪ but my hand was made strong by the hand of the almighty ♪ ♪ we struggle in this generation triumphantly ♪ ♪ won't you help me sing another song of freedom ♪ ♪ because all i've ever had

redemption song ♪ ♪ redemption song ♪ ♪ emancipate yourself from mental slavery ♪ ♪ none but ourselves can free our minds ♪ ♪ have no fear for atomic energy ♪ ♪ for none of them cannot stop the time ♪ ♪ how long will you kill our prophet while we stand aside and look ♪ ♪ some say it's just a part of it, but we've got to fulfill that book ♪ ♪ won't you help me sing another song of freedom ♪ ♪ because all i ever had redemption song, redemption song ♪

[ cheers and applause ] >> that's so beautiful. thank you. >> thank you so much. i appreciate it. jewel, thank you so much. >> and thank you guys so much. [ cheers and applause ] >> and that does it for us this hour. thank you so much for joining us. more news on msnbc right after this break. have a great weekend. ♪♪

america, land of opportunity. study hard, go to college, and voilà. but at some point those doors to opportunity got harder to open. [ music dies ] this is a story about how our basic bargain was broken by greed and politics. and my personal journey to uncover how student debt crushed the american dream. >> this thing has just spun out of control. good morning. 10:00 a.m. eastern, 7:00 p.m. pacific. this morning millions of americans are getting started on their holiday