fighting began in this year's midterms. that's part of this reparations the committee plans to publish a final report of its findings by the end of this year. before the new congress is seated. according to the washington post, that final report is now the source of discord among members of the committee who disagree on what she deserves to be included and what will become the definitive document of the committee's work. washington post reports builds upon a november 11th and d.c. news story, about how the final report will largely focus on donald trump and how he fomented the january 6th insurrection. that report is expected to be about 1000 pages long is expected to be an encapsulation of the committees wide-ranging investigation. over the past year and a half, committee members and their staff have conducted more than 1000 interviews with witnesses. and they reviewed hundreds of thousands of records related to the events leading up to the january 6th insurrection. and its aftermath. but according to the 15 former and current committee staffers

who spoke to the washington post there are concerns that a final report heavily focused on trump which neglect other important findings about law enforcement. and security failures. and they role the domestic extremist groups played in spreading distrust in our democracy. and attempting to overturn. a few days after nbc published its story, the committee vice chair liz cheney disputed the story during the global women's summit organized by the washington post. >> and so the report will have in it chapters that address the topics that we addressed in our hearings. they will have chapters that address additional material and additional topics. there has been some assertion that the committee is not going to produce information about the security failures. that's just simply not true. it will be a comprehensive report. >> discontent on meng the staffers has continued sense. then the washington post reporting was published by the

week after liz cheney made those remarks that you just heard. it is a somewhat surprising insight into a committee which up to now is appeared to be cordial and united. and it is michigan presenter one of perhaps the most significant public hearings in the nation's history. since the attack on the, capital training has gained inspiration for the rest and garnered resentment from the right for a consistent and sharp criticisms of trump in the republican party's continued fealty to him. which caused her to lose her seat in congress. and even become a surrogate for a handful of democrats on the campaign trail. ahead of this year's midterms. many of whom. one it goes into the spinal port is important because the narrative threats will be the committee's legacy. it will shape the public understands what happened in the period between election day 2020 and the january 6th insurrection. and how we can prevent something like it from happening again. joining me now is caroline. in the pulitzer prize-winning investigation for the washington post. also an msnbc contributor, coauthor of the books i alone can fix. it donald j trump's catastrophic final year and a very stable genius, donald j

trump's testing, of america. she is also the author of zero fail, the rise and fall of the secret service. carol, good morning to. you i guess the first thing i want to ask you, is this a tempest today to kick off? is this a big deal? or is it possible that this report is about trump to the exclusion of other matters that people think are more important? >> it is just the right question, ali. there are a ton of very smart investigators on this sprawling committee. and you are right they've all agreed, generally, on the, surface about what is important. here and they've all been united in their efforts to get to the bottom of the events that led to an attack on our capitol. perhaps the most tragic attack. almost successful. on our. democracy and trying to push it off the. wales so that donald trump can retain power. they have been united. however, behind the scenes the smart people are very worried about making sure that this

report can days everything that is truly significant. to prevent this from ever happening. again, remember that this committee was formed. which, said essentially, what could have prevented this from happening, one of those events is the failure of intelligence. and the failure of preparation by our government. not just donald trump's effort to hold on to power, but the failure of the rest of the executive to really stop what was an obvious train wreck in motion and prepare for it. the committee has an internal dissension. and that snow coming to the floor. we're doing some great reporting about. this and what we learned, was when the proposing that draft report, committee members were saying that this other stuff that is not about trump's not ready for primetime. not ready for the report. and that infuriated people.

who spent months and, months almost a, year digging into those issues. >> you are in investigative. reporter pulitzer prize winner. but you are also in. author you've got a perspective on this it is a bit different. not the way you and i normally talk about these things. i have to ask you, as somebody who follows this more closely than almost any other journalist in america, what is the right thing for the committee to do? we have one chance at this. they get one pitch. and to get one chance to hit it out of the park. what are they focus on? should it be trump or the broader question of executive and government security failures? >> so as a journalist i appreciate you asking that question so much, ali. but i will say i could never prescribe which would be done. if i were writing a book about january 6th, bill brooker nights is an entire chapter about just this moment. it is impossible to have a trump as the central figure here. because he was the marionettes.

he was a puppeteer. making sure that all of these henchmen, all of these aides, all of these rally goers, did what he was encouraging them to do. so it is impossible not to make him the centerpiece, then to focus a great deal of the report on all of the things he was doing behind the scenes. trying just to encourage the department of justice to claim there was fraud when there was no fraud. trying to create fake electors in different swing states and encouraging people to claim that there was a marshall reason to claim martial law and quote unquote re-run elections in different swing states by seizing machines. how about his efforts to pressure his own vice president not to do what he is constitutionally required to do? it is central. however, i am also a national security and law enforcement reporter, and there is no way

not to mention all of the ways in which our fbi, our national security, team our intel, our homeland security department, really whiffed into what was obvious for weeks and weeks. to national security professionals. which is that people were coming here with guns to attack the capitol, and stop the peaceful transfer of power. and so that has to be, it seems to, be part of the story. if i am writing a book about it than that has to be part of the story. >> carol, we appreciate your perspective and expertise. thank so much for being with. us caroline isn't as good a reporter with the washington post in a pulitzer prize. one or the coauthor of a very stable genius. zero fail. and i alone can fix it. coauthor of the two on the. right and author of the one on the. left i am joined now by the democratic congresswoman diane is you get of colorado. last year she served as a house manager during the second impeachment trial of donald trump, following the insurrection of the capital on january six. representative, good morning. do you thank you for joining

us. we appreciate. it you heard my conversation with. carol i want your take on. this and there are a lot of people who i think we're compelled to listen to the testimony in these hearings because it was so compelling and there are a lot of people for whom the question really is was donald trump and perhaps the small planned car around him responsible for trying to overturn democracy in the united states? that will be determinants about how they vote and how they think of politics in the future. and for those people the security failures and the other executive failures are secondary they are legal and political questions. so where do you stand on where this report, and what this report should emphasize? >>, ali thank you for having me on this morning i have to say that i am very proud of what the commission has done. when i was an impeachment manager for the second impeachment, we were really trying to prove that president trump should be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. we have had ample evidence of that. we have had ample evidence that

he got the people there, he sent them over to the capitol and he was trying to stop certification of the elector. what we learned when we are doing that impeachment process is that there was a lot more information. and my main goal, i never thought we were going to get all the senators on the republicans. but my main goal was to begin to get that evidence out there. my portion of the case was about all of the outside groups. the proud boys, and the other groups and the insurrectionists who are acting as donald trump 's behalf's. so when we turn that over to the committee they had this wide ranging investigation where they not only looked at president trump's involvement in his to getting the whole thing, but really the dangerous and far-right groups who really do think that the government should be overthrown. and then, of, course the colossal failures of the

security mechanism. i think they've gotten a lot of evidence. i think the report is going to be very very broad and concise. but the number one, is going to have to have more evidence about donald trump. and how he was key to this. and number two, they're gonna really have to talk about how this can be prevented in the future. but i tell you what, having been involved in this we can go on forever and ever and still be getting more information. >> i guess it is my. point as an impeachment and if you have a lot of information. i watched every second event impeachment. and there was a ton of stuff and there is ten times that ton of stuff now. if we spend another few years on and then there will be yet more of it. the issue here is that there is a deadline. there are some people who would've liked this report before the midterm elections but there is a deadline because the control of congress is changing and the incoming republicans have decided that this is not going to be a priority for them so i guess the question is do you look perfect be the enemy of the gun at this point? >> well, you are never going to

find perfect here. because there's so much information. but there is a lot of information that i know will come out because the commission has done such a thorough job. they have excellent staff and wonderful members who have been bringing this all out. we've seen this through the hearings. i think the evidence that came out in the hearings really impacted the midterm elections because it showed the real danger that our democracy was in and americans rose up and said, we're not gonna have that in our country. so when you get that report even though it may not be 100%, we're gonna have a lot of information to go on, they. or i will also point, out to do not forget, there are criminal prosecutions going on across the country. those will not be dependent on the midterm elections and there are many other inside investigations into the administration in law enforcement, they also will not be impacted by the midterm

elections. >> right. i guess that is an important point. you want this reported to be as thorough and all as it can be. but in fact, other things will happen in other things can come of it. what is the biggest goal? what is the thing you want americans to take away from if they will not read 1000-page report, but they get the summary of the guy just of the things we tell them on the news. what is the takeaway that you are hoping a person who is not quite sure what happened on january six or why, takes away? >> well, i think there are two takeaways. number one, donald trump attempted to subvert our constitutional democracy by stopping the counting of the ballots, the states ballots. and by just taking over. he can never -- he is unfit to ever serve as president again. the second thing that will take away from this is our security agencies and law enforcement

after take these threats seriously. and they have to be able to act accordingly. we are always addressing the last crisis. i was in congress on september 11th. and we tightened up a car security than. we need to think about how to do this looking forward to government wide. >> representative diana gets, thank you for joining us. she's a democratic congresswoman from colorado. she served as house manager in 2021 for the second impeachment trial of donald trump. still ahead on bill to trump is making a run for the right has once again but americans are not thrilled this time around according to a new poll. the majority of all voters think that trump's run it is a bad idea. plus, it is native american heritage much an eye of the incredible opportunity to sit down with six members of the navajo in the whole nation this time last year for an eye up in conversation on many things. including what it means to be an indigenous american in the modern era. and russia has battered ukraine's energy grid as the capital city of kyiv which is home to millions is expecting snowfall weeks.

no power and winter temperatures are a dangerous combination. you are watching velshi on msnbc. msnbc.

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in november temperatures have been wild across the united states. but in kyiv, the ukrainian capital, snow starting to fall and the temperatures are below freezing. it will only get colder as winter is coming. russia's unprovoked war is now entering its tenth month, as well as going into the coldest month of the year. making the situation worse for millions of americans in the situation has played heavily into russians tactical strategy. moscow has been attacking ukraine's energy infrastructure for weeks, damaging it must faster than it can be repaired. millions are already without electricity and unable to heat their homes. when russia at least a massive attack aimed at ukraine's energy grid on wednesday. it left nearly 80% of the country in the dark, and vital

infrastructure like water resources and public transportation were decimated. yesterday the ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy said that over 6 million households in his country were without power. and black it's persisted in most regions including in kyiv. he is now encouraging all citizens to use sparingly whatever electricity they have access to it in order to provide a safe haven for civilians ukraine has had to set up almost 4000 so-called invincibility centers across the country. to provide people with heat and water and internet and medicine. not only do these centers need to accommodate the millions of ukrainians whose homes are not currently viable to live in, but they will also have to help people have already lost their homes in the last ten months. according to the united nations, roughly 6.2 million people are internally displaced inside ukraine's borders right now. remember that some of these people do not have homes to go to in some of left with us there is fighting where there are. and some cannot have homes at all. the situation is. dire nbc's ellison barber's in

the city of kharkiv with more on how russia's latest attack is affecting people on the ground. >> one of the youngest victims of this war was laid to rest of this weekend. the baby only live for two day is when a missile hit a maternity ward where he was born in zaporizhzhia. ukrainian officials call that strike an act of terror. russia's revenge for their losses on the battlefield. on the frontlines, the heaviest fighting is taking place in the south central part of the donetsk region. ukraine's ministry of defence says that despite intense battles, the last two weeks, little territory is changed hands. the energy situation here is difficult but improving. wednesday's missile strikes left roughly 12 million customers without power. power for most customers has been restored to this point. but plants blackouts continue. as of yesterday. 6 million customers were still without power. when you look at the repeated in massive attacks on ukraine's energy infrastructure, places far from the front lines, it is

hard to see it as anything other than russia using winter as a weapon against civilians. this is an especially somber time in ukraine. because yesterday was remembrance day. a moment for the country to remember millions of ukrainians who died in a man made famine, orchestrated by joseph stalin in the early 1930s. for many ukrainians, what is happening right now is a variation of what happened back then. the september address to, russia president zelenskyy told them. this read my lips, without gas or without you, without. you without light or without you, without you. you often see ukraine's pushing variations of that across social media. this will not be an easy winter, but they are determined to help each other prepare and to survive. to live in their country, without russia. back to you. >> nbc's ellison barber. reporting united states is getting more than 19 billion

dollars to ukraine since the war. began olympic gear toward the military. with so many energy outages and vulnerable civilians, the new question becomes what form of assistance does ukraine need? weapons or more? i will discuss it with erwin -- who spent weeks in ukraine helping folks out. g folks out. run a marathon. instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette. first, there's an idea and you do something about it for the first time. then before you know it, you make your first sale it is a life changer... small businesses firsts never stop coming and you have a partner that always puts you first. no way! godaddy. tools and support for every small business first. seatgeek is the ticketing app for fans like boomstick lady. no free throw is safe from the roar of her sticks. seatgeek helps her find a seat in the direct eyeline of the shooter, so she can sit where her boomsticks make the biggest boom.

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it's just right for my little business.de hygienic clean unlimited premium data. unlimited hotspot data. (woman 2) you know it's from the most reliable 5g network in america? (vo) when it comes to your business, not all bars are created equal. so switch to verizon business unlimited today. before the break we talked about the upcoming bitter winter months mimic the deadly situation in ukraine even worse. according to the world health organization, average winter temperatures in ukraine around 27 degrees fahrenheit. but they are expected to reach minus four degrees and parts of the country in the coming months. joining me now is dr. irwin red letter, he's the founder of the national center for disaster preparedness. like columbia university. he's an msnbc public health analyst. and also the cofounder of the ukraine children's action project, a new initiative designed to provide urgent mental health and educational support to ukrainian kids who are either refugees abroad or,

in the case of this particular discussion we are having this, morning internally displaced. erwin, good morning to. you good to see. you know you and i were talking about this a little bit yesterday. this is a dire situation. in wage, as alison barber said, the russians are using winter as a weapon. >> well, ali, good. morning it's actually worse than that, in my opinion. there were two times where russia was humiliated by ukrainian forces. one was on october 8th, when the bridge between crimea and russia was blown up. and the second was when the russians were forced out of kherson. the problem here is that russia change the nature of the war on those two days. instead of fighting a battle for territory in the east, this whole thing became transform into a campaign of terror. and i think that is a real problem. they're actually going, after a

deliberately, energy suppliers, the electrical grid, feel surprise and so. on ukraine is not, prepared really. the preparing as fast as they can. the bridge has not been hits. there's gonna be an enormous amount of non-military aid in the next couple of, months ali. >> that is just a strategic position that russia was no put the, man or i? since the beginning ukraine is asked for more and more military aid, and has largely. we're ukraine and volodymyr zelenskyy, if he was going to be the most convincing a leader in the world right, now he has to shift that into non-military aid. doesn't that slow the progress, if you take -- the president military's been making against the russians? >> it. might depend on what's what we're trying to. give them there's no, questioning this myself in ukraine, the whole atmosphere has changed once russia decides it's going to be a terror campaign. ukraine was winning on the,

ground they were doing. fine yet everything is converted. now we have cruise missiles and drones that explode. and we have a different nature of the war. and that you require the world to help ukraine get through this vicious pairing, where it is going to be really depleted there was energy resources. we have to shift our own giving from educational support and so on, to really trying to get help for the ukrainians getting ready for the. winter as you, described it is going to be brutal. there are children without winter clothes, where we are now getting wood burning stoves for families that are living in these houses. and destroyed villages. it is very, very difficult. the shift in the proportion the government for humanitarian aid has to take place now before the winter really sets in. >> you talked about a terror campaign. it is a term that some people won't use or will use. but you have a lot of experience with refugees and

people who are displaced in one of the things that this is's psychological warfare. these ukrainian fighters and civil defense, it is amazingly strength the result that they have had. when people in a cold country get, cold and there is a shortage of, food shortage of public transportation, it is the thing that crosses the human spirit. >> it certainly does. we have seen this ourselves. when we were first going to ukraine, people were very resilient. and they were defiant. but once you start knocking out the electricity, for huge portions of the day. and people are worried about how they're gonna heat their homes and apartments in the coming months, then everything changes. people are terrified. and for good reason. even that, said though, i would tell you that the resistance, the resolve of the ukrainian people, is absolutely incredible. they're going about is not as much as they can, things have changed psychologically, as you pointed. this is a really big problem.

>> erwin, i just want to ask you. something the russians are claiming that they are targeting fuel depots, electricity generation, is something that is used in. war in russia, you can call it a civil war. ukraine has never declared war on, russia's invasion. in many of these plants that are being taken out are the electrical installations that are being taken out or nowhere near the front lines. they are not used for war. that sounds like a war crime. wa>> it sounds like a massive wr crime. do not forget the internally displaced people came from eastern and southern ukraine. to seek refuge in the far west. i have been to lviv, where people who are going who are staying in the country but want to be safe. who have, now, dozens and dozens and dozens of exploding drones being targeted in lviv. as tel aviv's energy supplies. and the strangest nature of the war. there is no safe refuge anymore in ukraine. and this is a problem that i am hoping our, leaders that are

supplying two -- and the department of defense, i hope they are considering the new needs to keep people warm during the winter. and that is what russia is deliberately targeting. >> erwin, good to see you again, as always. by the way, early in the show because dr. fauci is a top retiring we gave a shutout to the doctors who helped us get through covid. and i want to thank you. you are one of. them you have been with us since the beginning of that conversation. hopefully we are on the other side of it. doctor irwin red letter is the founder for the national disaster preparedness center at columbia university. he's the cofounder of ukraine children's action project. if you want to donate to his organization, please go to www. dot ukraine see ap dot org. it's on the screen right. there we will tweet that as well so you know where to send your wishes to. help it is native american heritage help, where we celebrate the history of

america's indigenous communities. i speak to members of the navajo nation in the talk about what it means to be native american in this idanha age. >> we're diverse in our politics. were there worse in our beliefs. we are diverse in our economics. we will probably obey the same in terms of living below the financial median of the united states. so that is not good. but we are a diverse people. and we are around the world. and our diversity is our strength. our strength 5g network in america? (vo) when it comes to your business, not all bars are created equal. so switch to verizon business unlimited today.

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heritage month where we pay tribute to native culture and acknowledge the significant contributions made by this country's first. americans last, year as part of our ongoing velshi across america, series i travel west to, arizona the capital of the navajo nation. to have a candid conversation with six members of that tribe. here's what i have to say when i asked them what i want to the rest of the world to know about the navajo and the native community at large in america. >> you want them to know that we still exist. native people, navajo, we are here and we are always going to be here. we are proud of our heritage. we are proud of our land. and i think that there are a

lot of things that people can learn from native peoples. >> i think what people can learn is that we have people in these prominent positions who are navajo. who understand the issues. so it is not all dismal. we have capable people. what we would hope is that we continue to have a better established working relationship with the white house. and other decision-makers. so that we can continue to be empowered. >> we are diverse in our politics. we are diverse and our beliefs. we are diverse in our economics. but we are probably all the same in terms of living below the financial median of the united states. so that is not good. but we are just a diverse people. and we are around the world.

and our diversity is our strength. >> we are all unique as indigenous people. there maybe 574 of, us but there are many more still fighting for federal recognition. so that is not true thing, as well. most importantly, to learn and educate yourself on innovative issues that are out there, not just what is presenting itself in media. this has been our way of life for so long, that we did not feel like we were in poverty. we did not feel like we were living below the median of the rest of the world. this is everyday life for us and this is everyday life for us. i think it is important for people out there and for everyone to understand that we are still here. >> as i'm sure you've heard me say, before having these conversations with people across the country is one of the most rewarding parts of my job. i hope to do it again very. soon after the, break i wish we did not have to talk a bit of a presidential run by our failed former president.

but the reality is we have been here before an elected trail of destruction. ruction. i remember the gift, and it was one of those gifts that just landed perfectly. i figured this is a great holiday present since i won't be with him for christmas. it was the best gift that i ever received, because it opened up my life. get our lowest price of the year at ancestry.com when you're through with powering through, it's time for theraflu hot liquid medicine. powerful relief so you can restore and recover. theraflu hot beats cold.

to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's basically cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home.

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midterm space, a new poll out of the university shows that 57% of all americans think donald trump's role in 2024 is a bad thing. 44% of independents take issue with him. running which offers a grim look at the trump campaign before he even get. started one might think it rise for a twice impeached failed former president to sit this one out, but as much as anyone rolls their eyes at donald trump and the stain to legacy that he left behind, you have a stern warning. this is not a joke. donald trump's candidacy is not something to laugh often hope it will go. away is also not something to stop looking. and he has been here before, and he left a trail of division and destruction in his. way let's take a look at some of the many reasons why so many americans think president donald trump to point out was a

really bad idea for this country. when he wasn't, office trump tried to eliminate the environmental protection agency, something he called a disgrace. it was formed by republicans, by the. way he rolled back over a dozen epa regulations. he slashed the budget. many of those changes resulted in legal battles and ultimately went nowhere. in 20, 17 after two separate terrorist attacks in paris and san bernardino, california, trump vowed to ban muslims from entering the country, calling for, a quote, total and complete shut. down this was, foreshadowing by the, way for an executive order that he later signed as president. which banned foreign nationals from seven predominantly muslim countries from visiting the countries for 90. days and suspected entry to the country for all syrian refugees immediately. in 2018, donald trump pulled united states from the iran nuclear. deal a deal that president obama and several other world powers made with iran to lift sanctions in exchange for tehranis's nuclear activities. critics said at the time that i could've alien the u.s. even

more on the world stage. in 2018, they took on a zero tolerance immigration policy. prosecuting anyone illegally crossing the southwest border and separating children from their parents. you will remember, we saw this footage of children in cages. cramped. unsanitary detention center. is absolutely traumatized. according to the biden administration, at least 3000 hundred kids are taking from their. parents because of unions happening while trump was still -- in the biden administration's had to take on the -- hundreds of. families they were united 500 children with their families and are working to reconnect at least 700 more. in 2019, three years after the obama administration told transgender individuals that they could serve openly in the military and have access to gender affirming medical and psychological care, the trump administration took it back. anyone with gender dysphoria who is taking hormones or who had already undergone a gender transition would not be allowed to enlist in the military. and then there was the pandemic. the president at the time

consistently wanted to downplay the severity of the virus. the covid-19 death toll in the usa just hit 200,000. the donald trump so that the, virus quote, affects virtually. nobody and. quote the failed former president did all kinds of damage and much more that we've already talked. about the january 6th, insurrection the big lie, efforts to overturn a free and fair american election. on the policy level, this should be a non starter for far more people than that poll lights on. luckily, i got the perfect people to discuss about this after the break. tim o'brien and david cay johnston are standing by. we'll talk to them on the other . you know that bargain detergent is 85% water, right? really? it's this much water! so, i'm just paying for watery soap? that's why i use tide pods. they're super concentrated, so... i'm paying for clean, not water!

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installment of trump's about picks. -- msnbc political analyst and author of trump nation, the art of being the. donald and david cay johnston, a pulitzer prize-winning journalist and cofounder of d.c. report dot org. and the author of the book, the big. cheat how donald dropped trump fleeced america and enriched himself in his. family the reason i book you two guys as i do not understand that we are having this conversation. i do not understand how that poll even shows the number of people who want to support donald trump. i don't know how this is actually a real discussion. one of the most destructive people who has ever held the office of the presidency of the united states could mathematically make a comeback. tim, let's start with. you know this is.

wild you to our experts on this. it is a little bit wild that donald trump is a serious candidate for president. >> he is a serious candidates, ali, because he holds a firm grip on about 30% of the republican electorate. and it is a reminder that a lot of politics is about, emotion not policy. people gravitate towards candidates who we are firm their biases, or who comfort them in a myriad of a number of ways, which have nothing to, do often, with politics. this is why the republican party is held hostage by donald trump, to a certain extent. given that he still has this traction with up substantial truck chunk of the. party i do not think he's a viable national candidate, and i do not think moderate publicans and independents will go for him as a national candidates. but he is going to be a force to be reckoned with in the primary season, no matter how much mitch mcconnell and others want to hold their nose.

i do not think they can simply get away with saying we support donald trump in a better fitting suits, allow ron desantis. i think they have to firmly come out against what trumpism is about and educate their own voters. >> david i want to just read to you an article by andrew proctor was in vox. why a second trump term would be even more dangerous than the. first in which you, writes trump and his team may well become more skilled identifying, appointing, empowering officials who would acted trump's personal interests, even as it means defying a law and. tradition indeed, his recent legal peril make that of paramount personal importance to him. there's every reason, then, to expect a second trump term would be far more tumultuous than the first. and it would lead to the country, and our democracy, to some totally unprecedented -- how do you make the case to people who do not love joe, biden because we know is approval ratings are not high

and they're actually lower and. how do you make the case that is not a thing, the trump versus biden versus someone else is not a viable thing? if you do not like joe biden, donald trump cannot possibly be a reasonable. option if you kind of like democracy. >>, elaine i think people who add to this stage are true blue or true red trumpers are not going to change. d.c. reports set journalist who several trump rallies, and one of the things they found is that those same people were showing up again and again and. again the depth of his support is deep but not white. and fundamentally those people are not going to change their positions. and the quotes you put up are correct, i've said this for years and tim is that the basic things. don trump is giving another chance to have a better understanding of how to

exercise the levers of power he didn't have as much damage as he could have had but there is a lot of terrible damage that he suffered as a nation because he was in competence at its. >>, ted let me ask you about the exodus of conservative media or some mainstream conservative media, whatever you want to call the not completely all the way to the right conservative media of donald trump both before the midterms and afterwards that don't have any effect on him or that does make him stronger without base? >> i do not think he cares at all about the defection of anyone else in the republican party or anyone else in the media away from him, in some sort of a perverse and disturbed level he actually thrives on people saying no do not do that in the same way that somebody tells a trial not to pick up a fragile item on a store shelf. he is in this for himself and i think there are a few things motivating him, ali.

i think he's got an addiction to the spotlight and the presidency is intoxicated for anyone who occupies that spotlight and i think he has learned how to monetize his presence in the spotlight and i think he wants to still try to make money off the backs of people who should know better and unless i think he thinks it gives him some insulation from this tar page of federal and state investigations that he is mired in. i do not think that ultimately it will but i think he is the threat of this investigations have come to his doorstep and i think he is deeply afraid of them. and i think he thinks a run for the presidency will offer him some protection. >> our legal experts do not seem to think that that is actually true but it does give everybody pause and make some pretty slow down and say, is this a witch hunt in his political because he's running for office? talking about monetizing you are both experts on donald trump monetizing things. donald trump is not slowing his role with his cozy relationship with a lot of middle eastern governments. it does seem that some of the things that the saudis have done to annoy the united states

or undermine the united states and cause the price of oil to go up or about the fact that they miss their front of donald trump in office. there are more things going. on donald trump's just made some deal to open up a hotel in oman, in georgia kushner continues to do a great deal of business in these middle eastern countries. >> well, we should be paying very close attention to what foreign governments are doing to influence our politics after 2016. and particularly the saudis, who are trying very hard to gain influence around a. country this is not anything. 40 some years ago i was running without the south africans we're trying to get the u.s. senator and iowa voted out of office. through surreptitious means. we need to be on guard against these influences. and donald, money is something he loves. it does not matter where it came from or how he got a. what matters is that he gets money. people need to understand that. it is money which is his loyalty. not that our democracy.

>> tim, let me ask you why you think this actually happens. does donald trump complete -- does he do this or does discovery tea leaves and say this is -- two years to an election something to happen, i suppose. >> i think he would wearable and getting all the attention that we are getting. him which as you point in the top of the show, we should not be doing. because he's a threat to the republic. but he thrives on this, so i think he will not walk away from it. i think if he gets through primary season with substantial support, he will stay in it until the final minute. he is in this full board, i think, at least through the republican primary season. >>, david. look i have people who will tweet me to say, i want to see donald trump's picture. i do not want to see the stuff he does. i don't want to hear about. i change the channel five. see him do not give him a. platform all those. things are totally. feel it everybody is gone through the trauma of donald. trump when i go to twitter used to say, this will direct my day

because you hear things about them start treating something new to high gear to cover. but we didn't really have a choice. you cannot turn away from donald trump. if you could be the next president of the united states. how do you manage that? >> first of, all we should pay more attention to policy. and two candidates backgrounds. remember that donald trump was never, scrubbed unlike every other candidate you can think, of going back 40 50 years. and i think going forward there are three likely outcomes. one is donald gets the republican nomination because he is able to turn out his minority of people who win the primaries. the democrats should be very happy if that happens. secondly, he does not get the nomination and iran's listening dependent, which would allow the democrats to run virtually anybody and win the white house. the there are possibility is that donald scene that he would be overwhelmingly trans and labeled a loser. it weren't he hates with a passion. who will tell his supporters to

boycott voting. >>, guys thank you very. much good to see. you tim o'brien is a senior columnist at bloomberg. a pulitzer prize-winning journalist and founder of d.c. airport dot or, they're both authors of important books about donald trump. that does it for me, thank you for doing velshi this weekend and catch me next saturday and sunday from 18 pm. eastern do not forget that velshi is available as a podcast. you can listen to the entire show on the go. anytime subscribe and listen to for free wherever you get your. podcast state where. you are the sunday show with jonathan kaye part begins right now. capitol drama. the january six committee prepares its final report and congress prepares for a republican majority. all discuss what it all means with three former house impeachment managers. the exit interview. my conversation with doctor fauci. as he gets ready to leave his post after nearly 40 years. and guess who's coming to dinner? donald trump has dinner with