but it's really tricky to see a way from here to there at this point, and i don't think, you know, macron or biden are so eager for talks that they want to end this war by making concessions to russia. >> certainly the state dinner tonight will be a glittering festification. there's real work to be done during the day for the white house also grappling with a potential devastating rail strike domestic terroristically. white house reporter for "politico," eli stokols. thank you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. both candidates are campaigning a storm. walker's speeches are notable because they are insane. here he is on monday making the case for a border wall. >> security at the border, how we going to do that. we going to put up a wall. a wall work around your house

when you got a wall around your house. yeah, but they can get in. but you know what they get in, and hard to get out because i got a dog. my dog really won't bite. >> i showed up to vote this morning. i was one of those folks who got in line and spent about an hour waiting, and you know, it was the most disappointing ballot i have ever stared at in my entire life. i couldn't find anything that made sense to put my vote behind. i walked ouch the ballot box, showing up to vote but not voting for either one of them. >> the state's own lieutenant governor couldn't bring himself to vote for herschel walker. that clip from cobert might explain, what is he talking about. former president barack obama heads there today for georgia to campaign for senator raphael warnock while former president donald trump is persona nongra

da. welcome to "morning joe," it is thursday, december 1st. guys, we're getting to christmas now. you need to get your shopping done. along with joe, willie and me, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay, columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. and former white house press secretary, now msnbc host, jen psaki, and ceo of the jim messina group, he ran barack obama's 2012 reelection campaign. a lot going on, and georgia getting closer to the runoff. >> a lot going on in georgia. some crazy stuff going on in arizona where republicans are so desperate to own the libs, they seem to be willing to lose election races now to own the libs. i guess that's where this ends up. donald trump's tax returns now in the hands of the ways and means committee on capitol hill.

that's fascinating, and willie, sad news, christine mcvie died at the age of 79. >> her family broke that news saying she passed away peacefully in the company of her family yesterday after a brief illness. she was of course the song writer, the singer behind some of fleetwood mac's biggest hits, "everywhere," "don't stop," the band saying she was the best musician anyone could have in their band, the best friend anyone could have in their life. that sound from "rumors" to "tusk," so much of what we know from fleetwood mac comes from her mind, her talent and her voice. >> her song writing, incredible pop songs but understated. just a brilliant, brilliant song writer. musician, performer.

will be sadly missed, mika, and she was, she and fleetwood mac really did, they just consumed popular music in the mid-70s. and in a massive way from "rumors" on. >> i got so many texts about this yesterday, devastated about this, her voice, her song writing. it was her and stevie nix, the most soulful, haunting, something about their voices, but oh, my gosh, i listen to them all the time. all the time. and absolutely beautiful, and she will be missed for sure. let's move on to politics now. after years of back and forth court battles, the house ways and means committee finally has access to former president trump's tax returns. the treasury department said

yesterday it has complied with the supreme court order that allows the committee to view the documents. a democrat on the panel tells nbc news the committee plans fo learn more about trump's taxes in a meeting later today. at this point, it's unclear what democrats plan to do with the documents and republicans on the committee have said they're not interested in trump's tax records. and what could democrats, jen, do at this point, and what's of interest, do you think, to them, what are they looking for the most? >> the trump tax returns are like the big white whale democrats have wanted for years. there's a lot of things they could do with them. know how much he has paid in taxes, if he's paid taxes. he might argue, i've worked the system. the system is broken. >> that's a campaign thing. >> that's what they'll do, and i think they know that. they can also call him out as a fraud. he says he's a hugely successful

businessman, and let's see, and your tax returns do tell you that. we'll see what they do. my bet is they're going to dive into it and see how to trickle this out. >>. joe. >> he could say, i know how to game the system so well, i didn't pay taxes. there were "new york times" reports a couple of years ago that i believe it was during the 1980s and parts of 1990s, he lost more money than any other american whose tax returns they were going through. i mean, he was just a colossal failure as a businessman any way you put it. >> this is like terrible news for donald trump right at the wrong time. you have the new york attorney general looking into his taxes and his corporate stuff. jen's exactly right you, put the smart people on the investigative committee on these tax returns, and they're going

to find the things that he said in new york that are different than what he said in his taxes. he's going to go straight at this corporate issue at exactly the wrong time, and it goes to his absolute underbelly of a problem which he's always been a liar. he's a guy that says one thing and does exactly the other, and voters are starting to wake up to this but the worst part is he's now got real people with subpoena power with these taxes who are not going to stop, and whatever they have when republicans take over, they're just going to hand it to the new york attorney general and she's going to continue this investigation. >> david ignatius, we'll get a sense of where he got his money from as well, perhaps? >> we'll see better than we have how he built his business, to what extent he built something real as opposed to a licensing operation in recent years. but you just feel looking at the tax issue and the whole range of political problems that trump has that the air is just going

out of this balloon. we're watching finally, i think, the real deflation of the trump as a financial wizard, a political wizard, people are not as afraid of him as they were. you see that as a bipartisan group of members of congress last night, and it was a different feeling than i've had in the last few years, people really willing to criticize him. >> people cringing a little bit more, even some republicans going, i just don't know if i need this anymore. willie. >> so let's turn to arizona. joe mentioned it a minute ago, kind of an astounding story. one county is delaying the certification of its midterm election results, which could have unintended consequences for republicans who won. cochise county refused to certify citing voter fraud without evidence. if the county does not certify its voted by december 8th, katie

hobbs has said the votes of the nearly 50,000 residents will not be included in the finalaly. without those votes, two close races would flip from republican victories to democratic wins. arizona's 6th congressional district where republicans gained a seat would instead go to a democrat, and would flip the race for state superintendent of public instruction from a republican victory to a democrat. so katty kay, you have spent a lot of time in arizona, you were there for a good part of the summer covering kari lake and everything that republicans are doing out there, and continue to do. so just to sort of recap this story, they're protesting, because they say there was voter fraud. there was not. there's no evidence of that. they're going to withhold the votes, and by doing so, lose themselves two elections they won. >> this is holding yourself to purity in politics in a way that is completely destructive to your own party. if they go ahead with this,

they're enabling democrats to have more power, not less, which is presumably the opposite of what they want. what's fascinating at the moment is watching kari lake. when i interviewed her over the summer and spent time with her, she was bombastic, revelled in the fight. revelled in owning the libs. >> supremely confident. >> in a way that was kind of brash. i would say she's a very skillful retail politician. i have seen her work a room with voters. she's really good at it. you shouldn't write her off as a political force because of this. she has a talent there. watching her twitter feed recently and the videos have come out. she's subdued. she's not defeated but not fighting anymore. >> you definitely see something going on behind the eyes sort of. >> a little defeated. >> but still kicking. >> how fascinating. she finds herself alone.

all the major election deniers all lost their elections, and i know a lot of republicans thought they were going to own the libs. it's all about owning the libs. jim messina, how fascinating. we always talk about steven miller getting sushi at a restaurant, being shouted at, and after buying the expensive sushi throwing it away, thinking he was owning the libs but not eating the expensive sushi he paid for. this takes it to, i guess, its natural conclusion, where they're now wanting to own the libs by losing elections directly. but you look at this, just overall conservatives, trumpers, have built this industry, we can make millions of dollars owning the libs writing books. we can make millions of dollars owning the libs doing podcasts.

millions of dollars owning the libs on a cable news prime time show. we can make millions of dollars owning the libs starting web sites. which is all great. i mean, they can. if that's what they want to do, we find out, though, it loses elections, and as we've said, not just to here in 2017, it lost elections, in 2018, it lost elections, in 2019, it lost elections, in 2020, it lost elections, in 2022, it lost elections, and now it's gotten so extreme they're not going to certify a county's votes that's going to cost them a seat in congress and a statewide constitutional seat. >> it is absolutely political malpractice, and what are the house republicans doing this week? they're just steering into this landslide band of idiocy. they're putting lauren boebert on their policy committee. they're giving marjorie taylor greene back her committee

assignments. they're refuse to go condemn donald trump for going to a white supremacist meeting. they're continuing to let the crazies drive their party and drive it straight off and every single statewide election denier in this country lost the election, and yet they steer right into it. no one is walking to arizona to say to those locals, you guys are killing us. instead, kevin mccarthy is doubling down on it. it is just terrible politics. >> kevin mccarthy has issued a warning to the house select committee investigating january 6th. in a letter to chairman thompson mccarthy said the committee's work will be investigated once republicans take control of the house in january. mccarthy who did not comply with the subpoena to appear before the committee demanded the panel preserve its records. house rules already require that the committee do so, and they'll be doing so for a number of reasons. anyhow, mccarthy goes on to accuse the panel of not telling

the full story of january 6th, the attack on the capitol, and pledges to hold hearings on it in the future. speaking to reporters off camera yesterday, chairman thompson responded to mccarthy's letter saying in part, he had a chance to have members on the committee. we will do our work and we will end december 31st. if he wants to conduct whatever he wants as speaker, it is his choice. joe, what is kevin mccarthy doing, is it another hot stove thing or? >> well, you know, as ronald reagan would say, there they go again. it's david ignatius, there they go again. and they learned absolutely no lessons from what has happened to then in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2022, and instead they're making all of these decisions and mistakes, framing a small house majority that

democrats will be able to use effectively against them over the next two years and into the '24 election. mccarthy, instead of trying to play to voters that they keep losing, by talking about taxes, by talking about balanced budgets. by talking about regulatory, for whatever republicans want to talk about to get the suburban voters back, they're doing extreme things, virtue signaling, talking about investigating the investigators. it was a disaster for durham, it will be even worse for these people. and defending, coming out and demanding justice for the january 6th rioters and insurrectionists. these are the very people who lost the suburbs for republicans, who lost the '22 election for republicans. who lost the 2020 election for republicans. who lost all of those other elections for republicans and they're running straight toward

the same tornado that keeps knocking their house down. >> you might say they're ignoring the first rule of holes, which is stop digging. and they keep digging. they seem to determined to relitigate the january 6th hearings, do all of the things they would have done if they had taken part in the hearings in the first place. i think we're going to have a circus in the house no matter what. no sign that the republicans will see getting something done legislatively makes more sense than these moves. the action that we need to focus on, i think, is going to take place at the justice department than federal district courts. the conviction of stewart rhodes for seditious conspiracy is a big deal. it's obvious that our attorney general, merrick garland sees it as a significant precedent or basis for further prosecutions

of that type. they're seeing of course we'll accept this very deep description of what happened january 6th, and if merrick garland decides to keep going with that and moving up and take the evidence that the january 6th committee provides and begin to turn it into actual legal cases, you know, kevin mccarthy in the house. >> it's a parallel universe. >> can hold all the hearings they want, but the action in the litigation and the decisions people will face about whether to cooperate or whether to face really significant prison time, that's going to be, i think, the issue of the next year. not all of this. >> yeah, look, on one hand you have the republican party on every level, the battle for the rnc chair, whatever kevin mccarthy's strategy is, i don't

think it's three dimensional chess, i don't think he knows. and marjorie taylor greene's participation on committees. what are they fighting for. to david's point, you have merrick garland and the department of justice, and i think he deserves and they deserve credit here, and i was speaking with a department of justice official a couple of weeks ago who described merrick garland as a quiet storm, somebody who builds. that is what he is doing. they went big with stewart rhodes. there are more seditionists, he has jack smith in charge, a guy prosecuting war criminals. this is a complete bad ass guy who is doing this, and they are doing serious work here. there's an identity crisis on the other side. >> that work won't stop, joe, so given that, isn't the opportunity for the republicans whether it's the right thing to do, whether they want to win or whether they just don't want to look stupid, sort of trying to investigate january 6th while

the doj is doing their job. wouldn't this be the moment to press reset and find that old republican party again that actually had conservative values and policies. >> yeah, well you would think so. again, we talked about it every day. if you're not going to do it for the right reason, do it for the wrong reason. just do it. move away from the extremism. i mean, again, this is simple, simple math. i don't know, jim messina. this is simple math. you've run elections. i have run in a few small elections on the congressional side, and we all had our extremists, right, we all had the people in the crowds like, okay, they're over there. you leave that door. they're saying crazy things, and i'm not going to get you on camera with them saying crazy things. right, so they're extremists.

there have been extremists on both sides. the important thing is you stay away, and you try to mainstream. you try to mainstream your message, like the democrats. democrats, i think we both agree should have gotten slaughtered this past year. >> no question. >> they should have been wiped out because of inflation, because of crime concerns, the chaos at the southern border. that may not mean anything to some people but that means a hell of a lot to people in arizona. it means a hell of a lot to people in other swing districts. but they're playing to the most extreme in their caucus, and in so doing, they're saying the hell with voters in the philly suburbs. they're saying hell to the swing voters and the detroit suburbs. they're saying the hell to the all important atlanta swing voters in the suburbs there. and it keeps coming at a cost. does it not? >> it really does, joe, and you

just look at the election we just had. these swing voters rejected the republican party. history thought us republicans should have picked up 30 house seats, an average of four senate seats. instead, democrats had a historic election, in part, because the mainstream voters you're talking who decide american elections thought inflation was bad and everything was going to go to the republicans, the republicans drove them there, saying we're just about election denying, the conspiracy theories of our base, the voters rejected over and over, and again, kevin mccarthy is steering right back into it. it's political malpractice, joe. >> it doesn't make any sense. >> willie, again, let's take a step back and remember what you and i heard, what mika heard, what we heard from democratic friends, from liberal friends. and it was, man, the democratic

party. i mean, i don't think in new york, i don't think they did it on crime. i don't think they get it on quality of life issues. i know people on twitter, progressives on twitter hate hearing this, but man, liberal democrats constantly talking about wokism. they're hurting our party. there were all of these complaints about how extreme the democratic party was getting, and why they were going to lose voters. republicans said we'll see your crazy, and we'll throw in a couple of thousands dollars of crazy on top of that, and they did. so you have swing voters going, okay, yeah, some of the woke stuff on the college campuses, i don't know like that. i don't know if biden has an answer on inflation, but what are republicans talking about, i'm getting 14 mailers about

transswimmers and i think there are two or three in our state, and i guess i'm going to go with the democrats. that's exactly what happened. the republicans had this race in their hands. kevin mccarthy was right. they should have picked up 60 seats. they blew it. >> on the issues and the candidates. they blew it on the candidates, see arizona, see michigan, see pennsylvania. go down the list, and see georgia where we're talking now five days away from this runoff election. former president barack obama heading back to the state to rally for senator raphael warnock. democrats home the event will boost turnout as much as possible before the early voting window closes, and there has been a ton of early voting record setting in fact. this will be the second show of support from warnock, for the obamas. first lady, michelle obama recorded a couple of robo calls for the senator. as of this morning, 1 million georgians already have cast their ballots in the senate runoff. meanwhile on the republican

side, some supporters of herschel walker are worried he's taking his foot off the gas at the end of the race. "the new york times" reports the decision to skip campaigning over the crucial holiday weekend has walker's republican allies airing frustrations and concerns about his campaign strategy in the final stretch of the overtime election by senator warnock. democrats have gotten a head start, and are drowning out the gop on the air waves, out spending them two to one. the paper continues, time is running out fast for walker to make end roads with the moderate conservatives who did not support him during the general election. so jen psaki, it's very rich that republicans now five days away are realizing that herschel walker might be a bad candidate and doesn't campaign well. he hasn't taken questions from reporters. >> we knew months ago, willie. >> hasn't taken questions from reporters in two months. reporters can't get within 20 feet of herschel walker so

they can't even shout questions to him. but, but, but, with all of that said, there's a new emerson poll that has war knock up two points, a margin of error race there. >> look, georgia is a purple state. this is not a state even with the strength of reverend warnock as a strong candidate and a powerful candidate, it still is going to be a close race. there are some very good signs here, willie, not just herschel walker's craziness, every time he opens his mouth about vampires or whatever he may be talking about, also the fact that the early turnout numbers are so high, women are turning out, young people are turning out. these are groups, while we don't know who everybody voted for, but a typically good for democrats, and democrats have been focusing on turning out. the other interesting sign to me in this rates is in the weeks post the election, the walker campaign, their names are so similar, the walker campaign was running ads on transgender,

attacking transgender people. right? this to me tells me they're still trying to appeal to conservatives and get them in line, and that is a better sign for warnock. >> i just wonder, joe, if actually they're not concerned about him not doing much in the final run of the campaign, perhaps less is more at this point because every time he gets on stage, it's crazy. >> from now on, from now on, when a candidate decides they're not going to debate, they're not going to go out and campaign aggressively, and people are pushing the candidate, the candidate's going to go, yeah, but, katie hobbs. kari lake was chasing a ghost, and never caught her. it's still amazing how little katie hobbs did publicly. but she won, which, jim messina, again, i always said you can't beat something with nothing. you can't beat something with

nothing. well, i'm not so sure anymore. i know katie hobbs is a great public servant. she did extraordinarily well as secretary of state. all americans should be grateful for the strength she showed when american democracy was on the line, and i salute her for that. as far as her campaign goes, nothing, she basically ghosted kari lake, and she won, which, again, goes back to our theme of the day, again, this extremism that we're seeing in the house. this extremism that we saw in arizona. this extremism that we're now seeing in georgia in these ads. i mean, it's just, again, tgs it's not working. it's malpractice, and yet they keep doing it over and over again. >> they keep nominating crazy candidates who are terrible, and if you're going to run a kari lake, the democrats should go away. i'm with mika on georgia, it's smart for walker to go away, and

don't talk, you look at the ad warnock has on the air. it's literally herschel walker talking for 60 seconds about vampires, and it's driving voters, and this is now a turnout election. after $300 million of spending there is not one swing voter left in georgia. this is about turnout. let herschel walker talk all he wants, bring barack and michelle obama in there. >> i was down in georgia this summer, and because of the change in the rules, democrats were focused on turnout. they were extra focuses this cycle because of what had happened in the state legislature, and they were going to make sure they got the turnout. and that operation is effective. >> they got the court win for people to vote on saturdays. >> jim messina, thank you very much. great to have you in. and the latest on the looming railroad strike and what congress is doing about it. transportation secretary pete buttigieg will join us for more

on that. plus, our next guest says ron desantis is full maga without the high drama. i guess that rhymes. mark leibovich joins us with his new piece on the governor. and live to the white house ahead of president biden's state dinner with french president emmanuel macron tonight. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. research shows people remember commercials with nostalgia. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's one that'll really take you back. wow! what'd you get, ryan? it's customized home insurance from liberty mutual!!! what does it do, bud? it customizes our home insurance so we only pay for what we need! and what did you get, mike? i got a bike. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal.

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12 irresistible subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet! all right. just about 33 past the hour. a beautiful look at washington, d.c., a lot of people on their way to work already. time to get up. vice president kamala harris welcomed french president emmanuel macron yesterday at nasa's headquarters in washington, d.c. the visit offered the two countries a chance to show off their cooperation on aerospace

technology. they discussed mutual agreements and commitments made during harris's trip to paris last year. later, president biden and the first lady joined macron and his wife for dinner at an italian restaurant in georgetown. biden tweeted this picture of the double date. vice president harris will cohost a luncheon for macron at the state department later today, and then the macrons will join the bidens for a state dinner tonight. this is the first one, finally, of the presidency. it's always a big one with the french president. >> it's an interesting trip. chancellor merkel, dominant figure, she's gone now. britain's in a little bit of chaos. so i think there's a feeling that let's help macron be the leader for europe. europeans are a little bit angry

at the united states for, you could argue, getting our act together on what's called industrial policy. we're now acting the way europeans traditionally have, putting subsidies into what we think are going to be big growing industries, and doing what we can to get manufacturing jobs. very european stuff, and they're angry about it, calling it trade car. >> protectionism. >> protectionism. yeah. and it will be an interesting visit in that regard also. my guess is that macron will come out of this speaking like and maybe being the dominant figure now in european politics for a while. >> and katty kay, the backdrop of course, the war in ukraine. >> and in some ways, president macron has not been the easiest of partners for americans because he has had a habit of freelancing, in some ways, talking to president putin, he has been doing it recently, and they would much rather he didn't do that but they know he can help keep the europeans

together, and with energy prices as high as they are in europe, they need that assistance. this is a backdrop to macron because of the deal americans did over nuclear submarines and technology with the australians that irritated president macron. this is a way of saying we're moving beyond that, we're showing we're making a good faith effort to keep you on board. >> i bet you also the white house is not entirely unhappy that there is a channel to talk to putin for the moment. >> and they can pin it on macron. >> in which it's necessary to talk to putin. macron has carefully tended that space. it's not relevant now because the ukrainians have no interest in negotiation. >> when i was till still there, president biden would speak with president macron before the spoke with putin, after he spoke with putin. in some ways, it was like speaking with putin, without directly speaking with putin. i think coming out of this trip, there's of course attention on, as you said, the industrial

focus and the ira specifically and the subsidies the french want. what is so valuable to macron is this dinner last night in georgetown, and showing how close they are as leaders. i am the leader of the united states. president biden, and i am the leader of france and of europe, and that's a photo, i think, that will be very powerful for him. >> for sure. joining us now, staff writer at the atlantic. mark leibovich, and mark, you're taking a closer look at florida. governor ron desantis, and his potential presidential ambitions and you write in part, quote, he has impeccable bonafide as a donald trump disciple without being trump himself who many see is the big lose of said dark election cycle. this has made desantis, the full maga without the high drama, terrorizing all the right targets while trump keeps blowing himself up in new and

creative ways. the question is whether desantis's presidential hopes will perish as he starts getting out more on the iowa new hampshire dating apps. people who know him better and have watched minimum longer are skeptical of his ability to take on the former president. desantis, they say, is no thorough bred political athlete. he can be awkward in plotting, and trump tends to eviscerate guys like that. joe, i'll toss it to you. i tend to agree with marc, especially thinking of that moment, i think it was during the debate where charlie crist was asking him will you run in 2024. the debate rules is the candidates were not supposed to ask each other the questions, but you really saw him physically stiffen up and become afraid and stare straight ahead. it was strange body politics. >> you know, it was interesting because i've never spent time with governor desantis so i don't know but i do know a lot of people in washington,

republicans in washington, and republicans in tallahassee who have dealt with him, and i hear the same thing, he's a really -- personally, he's a very stiff awkward guy. in tallahassee, he's got an extraordinary amount of control in that town with overwhelming republican legislatures, you know, holds a couple of press conferences, he loves attacking the media, especially younger women reporters. loves going after them, and he has this routine down, which helps him raise a lot of money, helps him be the anti-woke candidate. but mark leibovich, i'll bring you in, i keep hearing the same thing, two words always attached to him as a political candidate if he goes out on the national stage, those two words, glass jaw, a boxing term to say this guy, once he gets out on the big stage won't be able to take a

punch. i don't know if that's the case or not. again, i have never met him. that's what republicans who work with him say, and your article is filled with stories like that. >> yeah, it's true, and the thing is it's not like he's going to tiptoe out into a friendly environment. donald trump is going to be waiting for him, and traditionally, donald trump does well with people who are not as comfortable in their, you know, in their skin as he is. he has a presence about him for better or for worse. you know, in a weird way, the republican party has tried to find the better bully in some ways. i mean, that's kind of been their play over the last, you know, since trump came on the scene, and you know, hope that someone who has some self-control and who has less baggage than donald trump can sort of be their person. i don't see it. i also think that there's a whole tradition of candidates like desantis being overhyped. then they come out and under

whelm fairly fast. all the big donors are holding their breath. desantis has a rick perry vibe about him. >> rudy giuliani, 2008. >> but there are some good options, jen. i mean, aren't we waiting to hear whether or not larry hogan will run. i mean, i don't know. i mean, it seems like the republican party has an opportunity here to really turn a new leaf. >> well, that's making the assumption, which i think we would all support, that they want to pick a sane candidate. to mark's point, in reading his piece, it reminded me in a different way because less evil, democrat haves done this before too. where they find a candidate that they project all of their hopes, dreams and positions on. this person is the next person. wesley clark, howard schultz,

mike bloomberg, they are like paper tigers. they start to go out, and do the dating apps in iowa and new hampshire. >> it's harder than it looks. >> it's much harder. >> barack obama used to say, you know, when you campaign, they lift the hood, they kick the tires. when they do that, they discover things about candidates, do they have charisma, are they fighting for me, are they weird, do they have a glass jaw. >> are they weird. >> people close to trump believe that he can take on desantis and do what he has done to the republicans who tried to oppose him. desantis has never been against trump. >> is there going to be a real kind of duel between the two of them, and maybe they both destroy each other, and open the door? >> unless there's a viable third option, i don't know. >> what is that? >> i don't know.

larry hogan or somebody else who might run. i don't see a larry hogan or liz cheney getting the nomination. >> mike pompeo, are you serious? >> he sure wants it, and he's positioning himself to be the less crazy, you know, slightly less -- >> mike pence, too? >> the thing i thought was interesting about desantis was early on he showed that he wasn't afraid of trump, and my question about him, i don't know about the glass jar joe was mentioning. but can he throw a punch. he didn't look afraid of trump, and that made trump angry. why aren't you coming to court me and ask for support. desantis walked away, i'm not interested. and that's when the bubble around desantis began. >> trump himself has a glass jaw if we're going to throw that term around. trump is not someone who takes well to that.

he's deeply sensitive. he's ouch practice. >> beaten down by legal woes. i don't think he's as savvy, as vicious, the unicorn some of us make him out to be. >> i can't imagine donald trump isn't slightly impacted by all the noise around him, whether it's january 6th, his tax returns. those are the things that really, excuse my language, that pisses him off. he will be griping all day long about that stuff. >> and all of this conversation, all underlines, under scores, i think a bigger point, mark leibovich, and that's all we hear about how is deep the republican bench is, the republican bench isn't that deep. you get them all together, oh, wow, okay, trump, or desantis or

youngkin or whatever. i mean, larry hogan is far too moderate, to rational for this version of the republican party. you hear about this deep bench. let's take them one at a time. even trump understands he's lost the suburban voters i talk about in northern atlanta. there's a reason i talk about them. he's lost those voters. he's never going to get the suburban voters back in the philly suburbs. you go down the line. he understands it's not happening. he could win the republican primary. he's not going to win a general election. you then go to desantis, and if you believe every republican in tallahassee, if you believe every republican that worked with him in the governor's association. you believe every republican that worked with him in congress, they'll tell you he doesn't have a personality. he's going to get knocked out on the big stage. that's what they say. not me. and then you go youngkin, i hear

some people saying he's not that effective a campaigner. suddenly this republican race that everybody thinks is going to be the thrill and manila, suddenly you look a little closer, and you're thinking, man, this republican race may be wide open after all. >> it could be. although the default there is that, well, trump could win the nomination. you say that almost as an aside. that's scary. i'm of the belief if republicans want to stop donald trump, they need to stop donald trump. they have to stop outsourcing this concern to the democrats, to the, you know, prosecutor x, counsel y, and look, desantis might not fear trump like others have. he might not need to fear trump as others have. you need to swing hard at him. you need to go right at him. he's vulnerable, a lot of things. >> get it over with. >> and there are so many cases

you can make about donald trump if you are a republican. even if you emphasize the word conservative, right, i mean, this used to be the bread and butter word of the republican party, and donald trump is an anti-conservative. i mean, he governed basically -- >> he's a democrat, actually. >> he literally was a democrat. but he -- i don't know, i just think there are a number of ways to go at him, and i hope that desantis does. >> this is a fascinating piece online now for "the atlantic," mark leibovich. thank you very much for coming in to share it with us. the house would approve a measure to require rail unions to accept a contract they previously accepted. it would avert a nationwide rail strike over the holidays. chief white house correspondent peter alexander reports. >> reporter: president biden

celebrating the lighting of the national christmas tree but with the threat of a looming railroad strike that could complicate the holidays for americans. could cost the economy a half billion dollars in the first week alone, according to one estimate. >> let me be clear, the nationwide rail shut down would be catastrophic. >> reporter: approving legislation that would force the rail companies and their workers to accept an agreement the white house helped broker earlier this year. giving rail unions a 24% pay raise over five years, but several of the unions rejected that deal because it failed to provide enough paid sick leave. the question now, will it get derailed in the senate. retailers and manufacturers are racing to find alternate ways to move their products. everything from chlorine for safe drinking water to clothes. >> preparations are in place a week or more out.

they're having to find work arounds. that uncertainty is poison for being able to plan in any real way. >> some senate republicans arguing washington should stay out of it. >> why should the federal government force a contract on workers that they have explicitly rejected. >> and democrats are demanding more paid sick leave. >> reporter: how critical is it that the senate approves this deal now? >> it is critical. look, the u.s. transportation system has no substitute for well functioning freight rail. this is not a time we can afford to have a lot of maneuvers, any type of politics introduced here. >> and secretary buttigieg joins us now live. mr. secretary, thanks for your time this morning. so this did pass through the house on a bipartisan basis. have you spoken to members of the senate? are you confident it will make it through there and soon? >> i think it will. i hope it will. i'm going to be spending time

with is that right today mainly to make sure they understand the implications of inaction for our transportation system. as you saw in the piece reported earlier, there is no substitute in the u.s. for functioning freight rail, and if a shut down were to occur, that's not just shutting down our trains, it's really shutting down our economy. immediately you would see effects, including when it comes to inflation, prices shooting up because of the cost of shipping. you would see water treatment plants in some cases, fairly quickly. running out of the supplies that they need and you could have american citizens in cities around the u.s. being told they need to boil their water or resort to bottled water. within a few days, you would start to see our ports unable to operate because they couldn't ship the goods out of the ports. they would eventually get so congested, they would have to turn ships away. you would see our auto industry quickly grinding to a halt.

many facilities have a couple of days with parts on hand. 765,000 layoffs in the first two weeks of a shut down with more to come after that. there's no guarantee that laid off workers would get their jobs back after a disruption ended. my main concern is to make sure that the senators understand the implications of any kind of delay here with the clock ticking. i do think it's frankly impressive to see how quickly after speaker pelosi brought that to the floor yesterday, there was a strong bipartisan vote to enact that tentative agreement. this town is not known for working quickly. it was i think a reflection of the urgency of the matter that the house moved that with such a strong vote. we need the senate to do the same. get a bill to the president's desk. that needs to reach the president's desk by this week or weekend, to avoid initial effects to our economy. >> still counting the votes, got

to get to 60. not clear they have the votes yet. mr. secretary, as you're well aware, the railroad unions are not happy about being forced into this position, and having their strike blocked by the united states congress with the backing of a president who often touts his pro union credentials. what do you say to the unions this morning? >> yes, look, this is obviously something that a lot of leaders are looking at with reluctant. the president prides himself and this administration prides itself on being the strongest pro union administration in modern times. what we're talking about is a tentative agreement that was reached by labor leaders and companies at the bargaining table, including that 24% pay raise, average six figure pay for rail workers, and speaking to some of their other concerns about benefits and quality of life. they have further concerns, legitimate ones when it comes to the ability to take sick leave. this reflects a compromise at the bargaining table that none

of the sides thought was perfect, but what it took to reach that preliminary accord. what i'm trying to make sure everybody understands, what would happen to our country if there were to be a shut down. >> mr. secretary, let's change subjects quickly, and get to a subject we have talked about before, and that is air travel. we talked to you before when things weren't going so well that's an understatement. you said wait until the fall. mika and i have traveled a lot this fall. i mean, almost all the flights are on time. everything seems to be running very smoothly. there was a warning that things might get worse during thanksgiving and christmas. thanksgiving based on our relative stories, i mean, everything was smooth over thanksgiving too, so we want you to take -- not you, because i know you wouldn't do it by yourself, but everybody involved here, take a victory lap.

i'm just curious what so radically changed things that in june, july, august, it was an absolute nightmare it seemed for all americans, and then a couple of weeks into september, things are running as smoothly or smoother than pre-covid. >> yeah, we have really seen an enormous improvement. the thanksgiving week was very busy for travel. sunday, the busiest day for travel i think since before the pandemic in terms of the number of passengers tsa screened, and cancellation rates held below 1%. which is a good sign. you can't get all the way to zero with weather and things that come up. below 1%, the system is doing quite well. the summer, we saw unacceptable delays and cancellations. what led to the improvement, several steps that i was pushing the airlines to take over the summer, to their credit they have. more realistic scheduling, trimming the schedules so they

were only booking flights they knew they could support and serve. more aggressive hiring including pay. you see a lot of airlines, including regional airlines, stepping up, offering competitive pay packages to their pilots. these are the kinds of things that have contributed to major major improvements, but i'm reluctant to use the words victory lap. even though i'm proud of the steps that have been taken, especially proud of the aviation workers who got people where they need to go. the system is still not as resilient as i would like in terms of the staffing levels, so if you did have, you know, a double whammy of a couple of major storms hitting a couple of major hubs, for example, take a while for the system to recover. we're going to watch with a lot of caution going into the christmas and winter holidays, but major improvements, and really pleased to see the trajectory here. >> no mission accomplished moment but my gosh, things have improved a great deal since this summer. u.s. secretary of transportation, pete buttigieg, as always, thank you so much for

being with us. >> thank you. thanks for having me on. >> good to have you. and david ignatius, jen psaki, thank you both. jen, you will be back at 9:00 a.m. >> coffee, eggs. i'll bring you back some. >> exactly. >> we'll be talking about french president emmanuel macron, the state visit to the white house and coming up on "morning joe," house democrats have a new leader for the first time in nearly two decades. we're going to hear from new york congressman hakeem jeffries on his historic achievement, and what he had to say about working with republicans. plus, gas prices are at their lowest levels in ten months. what do we say, joe, thanks joe biden. and one company is predicting a gallon of regular could be under $3 in matter of weeks. also ahead, elon musk backs off apple after threatening to go to war with the tech giant. we'll explain what that was all about.

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we seek to find common ground whenever and wherever possible, and we hope that our colleagues on the other side of the possible, and we hope that our colleagues on the other side of the aisle, as they temporarily inherit the majority in the next congress are willing to proceed with that same spirit of cooperation, fortitude and mission-centered focus to get things done for every day

americans. >> democrats make history with their new leader in the house, and while he's offering up bipartisanship, the republican hoping to become speaker seems more focused on politically motivated investigations. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, december 1st. katty kay is still with us. and joining the conversation, we have pulitzer prize winning associate editor of the "washington post" bob woodward. chief who's correspondent for the "new york times," peter baker, and pulitzer prize winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson is with us. what a great group we have for this hour, and, joe, the dems are hoping to move forward and try and work with republicans with the new leadership. you could hear that. >> we'll see. yeah, i heard that. we'll see. you also heard him talk about a temporary majority, so, yeah, we'll see what happens. i'm just curious, though, i want to start with bob woodward.

bob, i'm sure you've got fascinating insight on the fallout from the seditious conspiracy trial and conviction of stewart rhodes, and a few others. what impact does that have on merrick garland's thinking? on the doj? possibly on donald trump? >> yeah, it gives them a strong basis. i think we are now at this point that the justice department, the new special counsel is going to have to indict trump or explain why they are not indicting him. now, that's certainly possible that they won't -- prosecutors have discretion, but the case of the violation -- i'm sorry it's technical 18 usc371, conspireing, working to subvert a lawful function of government is right there in plain sight.

>> huh. well, attorney general merrick garland says the justice department will continue its work to hold accountable those responsible for trying to overturn the 2020 election. the ag made the comments at a news conference yesterday while praising the verdict in the oath keepers seditious conspiracy trial. on tuesday, a federal jury found the group's founder stewart rhodes and his deputy kelly meggs guilty of seditious conspiracy. three other members were convicted of various felonies in connection with the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> these convictions were the result of tireless work by justice department agents, attorneys, analysts, and support staff beginning in january 2021 with a methodical collection of evidence and continuing through the presentation of that evidence during the seven-week trial that began in october of

2022. their skill and dedication are in the very best tradition of the justice department and we are all extremely grateful to them. >> during the trial, prosecutors highlighted the defendant's ties to key allies of former president donald trump. but garland didn't say if he expected prosecutors to eventually file charges against anyone else who did not physically participate in the insurrection. willie. >> as for the select committee investigating the january 6th attack, chairman bennie thompson said the panel is getting close to wrapping up its final report and will publicly release transcripts and other materials from its investigation. congressman thompson said yesterday he expects the documents will be made public before christmas along with the committee's long awaited final reports, summarizing and detailing its investigation. chairman thompson also confirmed the committee has now completed all of its interviews. usa today reports the committee

will meet in private tomorrow to discuss potentially urging the justice department to pursue criminal charges against former president donald trump, and others, and potential civil complaints, against lawyers who allegedly behaved unethically. that is according to lawmakers on that committee. bob woodward, we'll get a final report. we have heard a lot of the testimony. we'll see the full transcripts. what's interesting there, though, is that chairman thompson says they will be talking to justice about some kind of a referral potentially. what are those conversations like behind the scenes. >> in a way, they're interesting fodder for us to discuss but i really think if you get, you know, garland is there talking about the dedication and efforts that people have made in doing this investigation. dedication and effort is wonderful. what is most wonderful is

evidence. and they have compelling evidence. >> yeah. >> that if you go back, it's most interesting hundred years to supreme court decisions on this 371 violation. and it makes it very clear, decisions written by chief justice taft of the former president, only person to become chief justice, saying that in this -- to violate this you have to practice deceit and dishonesty. now, we know, again, from evidence that that is right out of donald trump's play book. >> he knew. >> deceit, dishonesty, and the law and the constitution are

clear. >> right. >> that they will meet and decide who's president. >> right. i mean, you don't need a congressional referral for the justice department to move ahead. and attorney general garland used a word that i think is important here, he used the word methodical. that pretty much sums him up. it's, you know, one step, and then the next step, and the next step. they have been gathering the evidence. >> it was interesting he wanted to get out in public and take a victory lap. he has not been very public so far. and people are trying to get him to be more out there so they can defend themselves against the attack. >> but the report could be valuable to the justice department whenever it comes out. i'm so interested in this concept that they're only looking at people who are actively participating because when it comes to donald trump, if you look at what the january 6th committee revealed, it appears he wanted to be there, and might have been held back

physically. and so where does that stand and everything, you know. >> the trial now has established as a matter of law and fact that there was a conspiracy, a seditious conspiracy against the united states. this is the first time, though, in at least more than a century in which you could say a president had some relationship to such a conspiracy. the question is now, of course, can you prove it, as bob said, with evidence. the interesting thing about merrick garland's decision to appoint a special counsel, he's made a special threshold decision, he's willing to file against a former president now running for president. otherwise you wouldn't bother turning it over to special counsel. the threshold question, do you want to put the country through a possible prosecution, otherwise merrick garland wouldn't have bothered to appoint a special counsel. >> but i think he had no choice. i think if you look at, you know, biden is running, trump's running, what's going on here.

we have to mention the hunter biden case, which is something that garland is going to have to eventually face up to. so i think it's even maybe not premature to discuss. suppose he doesn't -- what's the explanation to the public where there is all of this language of no person is above the law. >> right. >> well. >> everybody is waiting. that's exactly where -- >> i hear you saying, you know, well and there are always other circumstances. >> right. >> i hate to go back 50 years, but in the nixon case, he was never prosecuted. and why was he not prosecuted? >> some democrats have said to me, this is going to be our mueller situation all over

again, where the whole of the democratic committee was focusing on mueller. he's going to be our savior. he's going to be the one that gets us out of it. i wonder slightly if that's why garland took a victory lap to show he's publicly on this. do you think after what you heard yesterday and the question of no one is above the law, therefore garland has to respect that. democrats are going to be more satisfied with garland than they have in the first two years by the presidency. >> you know, i don't know how you satisfy democrats in this without some sort of without some sort of preemptive justice, and that isn't going to happen. >> no. >> but think about what are the multiple obligations. months ago, mika, we talked object this show about the battle royal going on in the justice department. this is four and a half months

ago, because they are internally rightly debating what do you do with the trump evidence and the point is now here and these convictions on seditious conspiracy, i mean, that's not -- >> that's ramping it up to a different level. >> it is. and whether you would apply that statute or some other statute to the president i'm sure is being debated, but, you know, where does this go and not only what's the political impact of this. i mean, what are democrats going to do if they're unhappy. what is the -- it's been reported, i think, reliably by your newspaper, peter, that president biden was very anxious to have trump be held accountable for all of this. >> yeah. >> does that still stand? >> i think it does, but i think

he wants to keep his hands off. the more he is seen as part of this, the more he plays into trump's hands, this is a political prosecution against the guy he's running against. trump used the justice department as a political tool. biden wants to show the opposite. >> it can't be about the democrats, it has to be about the country. >> about the country right. >> where's the next bounce? if trump is indicted, does that ensure his nomination in 2024? >> i don't know, but the question is he's indicted, and what causes that, i mean, is it just brazen behavior on his part? you know, even with these documents, he never backs down, and he almost gives the justice department no choice, you know, because he doesn't hand them all back. he claims this. he tweets terrible things.

he can never back down, and he gives those who believe no man is above the law, i believe, ultimately, there will be no choice. >> but in a very important way, some of his biggest supporters in the senate, lindsey graham, mike lee, looked at what happened on january 6th, and you know, this john eastman memo saying there were seven states with alternative electors, not true. >> come on. >> those two senators went to the senate floor after january 6th and said count me out. they're not on trump's side on this. they don't agree. so you've got some of the most passionate supporters not agreeing with him that the election was stolen. you go around the country and talk to trump supporters, and i

have been amazed at moments. it was in texas, midland, texas, the oil capital of texas, and talking to 25 people, how many think the election was stolen from trump, raise your hand please. not a hand. how many people are going to vote for trump and still support him. every hand in the air. so what does that tell you? that tells you they love trump but they don't agree with this argument about 2020. >> tells you about the base. you asked the question about the nomination. that tells you something about the base, and the power and the party. it doesn't tell you about the country and about the middle and about those suburban swing voters. >> bob, i don't know you wanted also to talk about china and this article really piqued your

interest. "foreign affairs" magazine has a piece entitled "xi jinping in his own words what china's leader wants and how to stop him from getting it" cowritten by matthew puttenger, it reads xi jinping's ideology and motivations include a deep fear of subversion, hostility toward the united states, sympathy with russia, a desire to unify mainland china and taiwan and above all, confidence in the ultimately victory of communism over the capitalist west. the end state he is pursuing requires the remaking of global governance. it would be better to constrain and temper xi's aspirations now through coordinated military deterrence and through strict limits on china's access to technology, capital and data, controlled by the united states and its allies rather than wait

until he has taken fateful and irrevocable steps such as attacking iran that would lead to a super power conflict. the war in ukraine offers con stance reminders that deterrence is far preferable to roll back, and, joe, the question is what that would take. >> well, i mean, i guess, bob, the question is what does this deterrence look like right now? how much has the world changed since the russian invasion of ukraine. when the chinese figured out the great russian war machine wasn't so great after all, and that their generals, every general in the chinese communist party has not fought a single battle. they are not battle tested and they don't -- they don't know if an invasion of taiwan would end as disastrously as putin's

invasion of ukraine. >> yes, but what is stunning about this article. again, pottinger knows china like few people. he was deputy national security adviser. you know him. i mean, he's a remarkable researcher/investigator, and he went back and looked at the secret speeches that president xi had given, and you go through this article. and here's the president of china invoking marx, lenin, stalin embracing stalin, and not surprisingly, mao. literally in the speeches pottinger has uncovered, you

have president xi saying we need the tolls of autocracy to compete and beat the united states in the war for being number one. >> yeah. >> i mean, this is like george cannon's article after world war ii. >> oh, my gosh. >> about the containment policy. >> joe, jump in. >> yeah, it's just crazy. we just saw china say good-bye to a leader that led china for a decade, just meteoric economic growth. we saw that was a trend line from 1979, when china opened relations with the united states through about five years ago. but peter baker, how remarkable that it's just one self-own after another self-own, driving away entrepreneurs. shattering hong kong's

reputation as sort of the global epicenter of economic growth in asia. i don't know, it's almost like he's haunted by the ghost of his father who was drummed out of the party for being insufficiently loyal to mao. >> the contest between xi jinping and jiang zemin is stark. my wife has a nice saying, when somebody tells you who they are, listen. that's true of trump. that's true of putin, and that's true of xi jinping. listen to what he's telling us. because, in fact, it's right there. >> it's right there. >> what's really worrisome. he is in some trouble because of his covid policies. he has demonstrate vacations around the country. they're -- demonstrations around the country. i wonder if this is encouraging him as a way of rallying country to do some sort of taiwan

venture, and i have been thinking about that. >> more to come, i'm sure. >> but here's the president of china saying that putin, the russian president, is my best, most intimate friend. >> very trumpy. >> yeah, but we better worry about that alliance -- >> that exists now. >> that henry kissinger kept his life trying to keep them from forming an alliance, and now in his own words, he has. stunning. >> bob woodward and peter baker, bob, thank you so much for coming on this morning, and you're going to be back at 9:00 a.m. as well for our coverage of french president emmanuel macron's state visit at the white house. there's a receiving ceremony. and still ahead on "morning joe," more on the looming railroad strike, and what congress is doing about it. senators dick durbin, tammy baldwin, and gary peters will be our guests this morning. plus, former president barack obama heads to georgia today to rally for senator

raphael warnock. we'll have the latest on that lowsly watched runoff election. also ahead, a look at the morning papers including one senator's effort to address the nationwide amoxicillin shortage. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hortage. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. remember this? but i spoke to our advisor, and our vanguard investments are on track. “we got this, babe.” so go do what you love. thanks for being our superhero. only at vanguard, you're more than just an investor—you're an owner. giving you flexibility to follow your dreams. that's the value of ownership.

. welcome back to "morning joe." time for a look at the morning papers. "the miami herald," floridas leader may be willing to change state law to give governor desantis a pathway to run for president in 2024. in 2014, they required politicians to resign before running for federal office. they appear poised to change the rule amid speculation desantis may run for the white house. in anderson, indiana, "the herald bulletin" said mike braun plans to file paperwork to run for governor of the state.

an official announcement will be made very soon. to new york "the ithaca journal," accusing owners of a rochester nursing home of stealing $19 million in government funding. the owners allegedly funneled medicaid and medicare funds to other companies they own rather than using the money to staff patient care. the owners of the nursing home have not commented on the ag's accusations. in ohio "the dayton daily news" reports sherrod brown is urging the biden administration to address the shortage of amoxicillin, one of the first drugs to treat sick children. it comes amidst a spike of rsv. >> no child should have to wait because they could not get the medicine they need. in wisconsin, the green bay

press gazette is taking a look at gas prices, seeing prices below $3 a gallon at some convenience stores. a spokesperson for aaa tells the paper, prices nationwide continue to fall. some say they could sneak below $3 by the end of the year. coming up here, a college community in idaho comes together to remember four students murdered just before the thanksgiving break in a case that remains unsolved. and up next, comedian rob delaney joins us to talk about his new outlook on life following the death of his young son. and his new book may help others with grief. "morning joe" is coming right back. rief "morning joe" is coming right back chip. they drove to safelite for a same-day repair. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service the way you need it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ [coughing] hi, susan. honey. yeah. i respect that. but that cough looks pretty bad. try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love,

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drop everything and get to the xfinity black friday sale. click, call or visit a store today. as some of you know, i had kids pretty early, a lot earlier than a lot of my friends. they would call me a decade later, and they would have babies with problems or babies would be screaming and crying, and say what's going on. i always had all the right

answers, the answers of overstimulation, take them to a dark bathroom, they'll be fine. and all the pad answers always seemed to work. then i remember at my oldest son's graduation party, a mom came who had lost a son a couple of months earlier, there are no pad answers for that. there are no easy answers for that. there's no, oh, you're going to be better. he's walking with your -- that's why i think this next book is so important for so many parents, and unfortunately i have friends who have lost children, and i just -- i remember telling that mom, you should read the book i'm reading right now, and joan diddeons book on losing her husband and daughter. a year of magical thinking. we interviewed her on the show about that. a new book that will help so many people going through grief. it comes from an actor, rob delaney who made a career out of making people laugh.

in 2018, the comedian and his wife were dealt an unimaginable tragedy after a two-year battle with brain cancer, the couple's son henry passed away a few months shy of his third birthday. the loss would monument tally change his outlook on life, allowing the rest of the world to fall away, revealing only the things that matters to him most. we're honored to have rob with us right now. he's an author of the new book called "at heart that works," about his personal journey with grief and love after henry's death. and, you know, it wasn't just henry's death. you and your wife went through so much in like a year and a half. you found out your beautiful boy had cancer. you found out that your brother-in-law, who sounded like just the most beautiful human being, would light up a room. he fought depression, hospitalized himself twice. your son's cancer came back. your beautiful brother-in-law

committed suicide, your own son died, and i love how you said you and your wife, when you'd come together and break down or should break down, no pad answers, no it's going to be all right, honey. you'd just sit there and listen. >> yeah. >> try to bring us into that. >> sure. i'm smiling because i just saw on the monitor these beautiful pictures that you showed of henry. so immediately, you know, that's such a wonderful beginning to my day. so i miss him desperately, but those photos, my god, they make me so happy. look at him. i mean, couldn't you just -- why don't we just show maybe a 15-minute slide show instead of me talking. he's so beautiful. to answer your question, yeah, words have limited value when things this awful happen.

but love in the form of touch and presence and deeds has immeasurable value. people will say, hey, what should i say, and there's no answer to that. there's nothing you can say. there's no words, i don't care how many advanced degrees you have or how many books you've written, there's no words, but sitting there, you know, over powering your friend who's lost a child and pushing them ouch their home and locking the door behind them and making a mediocre casserole and cleaning their kitchen, that is unbelievable. you know, and we had friends who did that for us, and we were very lucky. lucky to know some other people who had lost kids who helped us more than i can say. other bereaved parents in that community are a big, big, i don't know, life vest for us. as we navigate all of this.

>> yeah. >> you know, it's interesting you had told gayle the other day that don't believe the old expression that you can't polish a turd because you did with this book. you had a publisher, rob, i want you to write this book. you're like, no you don't, so you wrote this angry, angry, you said, the first time through, and you went back and edited. it's so interesting when you read this book, and i have been following you on your book tour because i have been so moved by this, you talk about love a hell of a lot more and it started at the beginning, the anger the pain. there's still that anger. and there's loss, but that is even looking at his pictures, sort of moving in to love as well, and it's a beautiful mix. isn't it? for this book, for readers, for you. >> well, so it was quite a journey for me because in the

beginning, i mean, early after his death, i would have this fantasy that i would walk down the street that we lived on with a baseball bat, which would have been hard to get because i live in london, but i wanted to walk down the street with a baseball bat smashing windshields until the police came and then charged the cops, and see what they did. that's what i really felt like doing. that seemed like a good idea at the time, and i talk about stuff like that in the book because i think it's a nice thing to do for people who have been through horrible tragedy. my book has no bromides, no prescriptions. there's a lot of love in it, but i was adamant that any hope people got from the book was from observing my family through the journey. not because i said, after a while, i noticed the sun coming up, and i heard -- none of that,

there's raw, you know, unvarnished pain in this book. and i thought that was the best thing that i could do, and gradually, maybe, slowly stutteringly get better in some ways, and remain damaged and sad, you know, as well. i figured that was the best thing i could do with the book. >> i want to read just a portion of you talking about why you wrote the book that encapsulates that well, and if we could show pictures while we do that to make rob smile. henry, why do i feel compelled to talk about it, to write about it, to disseminate information designed to make people feel something like what i feel. done properly, it will hurt them. why do i want to hurt people. and i do. did my son's death turn me into a monster, that's certainly possible, it doesn't sanctify you, people get broken. maybe because i write and perform for a living, i can't help but share and communicate the biggest, most seismic, i

still love people, i genuinely believe if people felt a fraction of what my family felt and still feels, they would know what this life and what this world are really about. you talked about it being like living on a lunar colony, just in another world from the rest of your friends. >> yeah, for sure. but let's go back to the pictures. i feel bad, all of those pictures are before he got sick. i should have sent you some. there are pictures online if people would like to see. because he -- he's quite young in those pictures and he lived until almost three, and after the surgery to remove his tumor, they damaged some cranial nerves to rumor the tumors, and they did a great job on the surgery, but there's no choice when it's really wrapped around that stuff. he had bells palsy on one side of his face. it was funny, whenever he

smiled, you could exactly measure how much he had smiled because the rest of his face was slack, and he just had the most beautiful smile. so shame on me for not providing you pictures of when he was older because he was beautiful in a very different way than with all of his little, you know, imperfections that made him beyond perfect. >> and you can see some of those in the book too. rob, you wrote something in the book that jumped out at me because it's the way i feel and i was happy to hear you say, about the people who have gone. someone close to you guys, he's gone, yes, and then the crazy part is, he is here. he's in your heart and there are literally molecules of him farts and dandruff, and we are breathing them. but that person never really leaves you. look at the smile he brings to your face at the sight of a picture. >> it's very weird because if i could push a button that would bring him back, i would destroy the button with my forehead

smashing into it. i can't, but our relationship has changed. it's something different. it's more mysterious. >> thank you, look, look at him there. oh, gosh, with his big brother. come on. look at the love in his face. i mean, that's, that's the day we found out he had a tumor right there. look at those red cheeks. thank you, super producer. can we get maybe some award, is there an award for speedy producer. thank you for that. so, yeah, your relationship with the person changes, and i don't know what it is. it's not my job to know. i can't map that constellation of wonder and mystery. i don't know what it is. but of course i still have a relationship with him. i have three other boys. you know, and henry still receives 25% of my parenting energy. even though he's dead. you know, i still talk to him.

i still carry him and feel him. i see him in my wife's face and his brothers' faces. so, yeah, i mean, it's desperately sad, i'll go cry about him when we're done, but i'm a professional, and i have to deliver the package here, but yeah, he's still my baby boy, and i'm his dad forever. >> you mentioned your wife, and you write a lot about her. i'm the one writing the book, and tell the story, but most is her story. she gave birth to him, breast-fed him, with him at appointments when i was working. how is she doing? >> she's doing okay. it's weird because i'm on tv, and she's not, and so i do chafe when i hear like rob delaney's son. he's not my son. he's our son. so i think she's happy i wrote the book. she helped me with it immeasurably, and i think she's happy it will be out there for other bereaved parents, but right now, getting it out, it is

painful because somebody came up to me the other day, and didn't see that i was with her, and was like, oh, i love your book, and i immediately was like, well, this is henry's mommy, and had them talk. a big clown on a show, and so that's weird and like a stressor for us right now. because it's important for the world to know that, you know, he's her son. you know, he's my son too, but he's her son. he was her son before he was my son. >> and you write beautifully about her in the book. mika is here with a question. mika. >> rob, to that end, i'm curious, you just said it's a stressor point even right now between you and your wife, just because you are on tv and you're a communicator, and that's your job, and probably in some way helps to share, it might, i don't want to assume. i wonder, how did you all process this differently, the

grief before his death, and after, and sort of grief in a relationship, how that changes the relationship, can you talk about that? >> yes, i'm so glad you asked that. because we're two different people, and grief is so intense and everybody does it differently, there were times when in acute grief where i would be weeping on the floor, and she wasn't. and i would think, well, i guess she's grieving wrong. since this is what i'm feeling, as his parent, it's the correct way to feel, and what she's doing is wrong, and bad. and then she would be losing it, you know, might go into the bathroom to vomit out of sadness, and i would be like, we got to get to the other kids, and this is not the time, you know, for that. and i would be like, what are we -- and so it's very interesting to realize, and then of course you are like, what am i saying, you know, this is his

mother. and so you grieve differently, and you have to give each other the space for that. that was a big thing in the beginning to realize anything she's doing is 100% correct and beautiful and pure, and real, and same with me, you know, and there's no way we could do it at the same time in perfect sync -- and i don't know if you noticed but i'm grieving correctly and you're doing strange stuff. you have to give each other space to do anything. anything, you know. >> i want to talk about another woman in your life, it kind of came up at the end of your book, that did something that was beautiful and pure, your mother, who had been divorced from your dad early on. your dad a victim of agent

orange and started suffering the horrific consequences of that. >> yeah. >> you were talking about this as you were mourning your dad, and i laugh because you say your next book is going to be about your dad and just fact that he's not actually died. >> joe, i have to interrupt you. my dad has passed away. he did. he died a little over a month ago. >> i'm so sorry. >> yeah. thank you very much. he was 74, which is -- we're beginning to flirt with -- that's better than 2. but, yeah, he did. a couple of years ago, he went to the va in boston because he some illnesses that didn't seem to be improving at the normal rate. he had leukemia and the va, when they walked in, oh, yeah, where have you been, the point on the

map, yeah, everybody here, this is more likely than not from agent orange. and so he did pass away, and i just want to say on tv, what a wonderful, wonderful grandfather he was to henry, and if you read -- you read about him in the book, the incredible care he took of henry was just so amazing. so i'm very very grateful that i got to be with him and help him in his final days, which were beautiful. and you brought up my mom. hi, mom, who, yeah, they were able to spend time again together. they have been divorced for a long time. my mom is remarried to a wonderful guy named larry, hi, larry, but their friendship rekindled later in life, and i think it had to do with them helping me with henry in his illness and then death, you know, that's some beauty that came out of that. >> yeah, and you said she did more than just visit once, she

became quite involved with his care in a way that utterly blew my mind and my sister's. it was an expression of grace from my mom that pretty aggressively reoriented my perspective of people and the world at large, and you said what was so beautiful about it was that you knew that she was doing it for her son, to make your walk through your own personal hell just a little less difficult. that's beautiful. >> well, so when my dad got cancer, i wasn't angry about that. look, in the room we're in right now, half of us will get cancer. it happens. but i was very angry that it was at the beginning of lockdown, and i couldn't go see him for months, so that enraged me. i said to my mom, would you, maybe could you go, and boy did she. and that was very powerful because after henry died i felt a rift between me and my parents, because i immediately felt like i was 250 years old.

like i don't have parents anymore, i'm job, this is me holding a staff and the wind is blowing. no one can help me, and so my parents, like, they never stopped being my parents but i perceived them again as parents, elders who could help me and light the path a bit, so that was incredible for my mom. so, thank you, mom, i love you. >> let's talk also really quickly. we talk policy, a lot of policy on this show. a lot of people in washington watch this show, influencers in washington watch the show. could you describe to policy makers and others, voters who are watching. >> sure. >> the difference between the h in britain, where your living now, and in the united states. >> so we've got the nhs over there in the u.k. so i moved there at age 37. i'm 45 now.

so eight years ago. so after a few decades of using health care here and you could get good health care in america. nobody disputes that. there are amazing hospitals and wonderful doctors and nurses, of course. but the difference with the nhs was that we didn't spend a second on the phone with some insurance functionary in a office tower in a suburb of st. louis. that time that would have been apart, saying please, approve this mri, or alternately i'm at the pharmacy trying to get a prescription filled and then i find out that during the night my prescription plan was sold to another company and they logged me out of the system so now they want $620 for some blue liquid that my baby needs. so that stress was removed for us and the cumulative hours and days and weeks that i would have spent begging for help from the private insurance company that i pay a frigging giant antic monthly to any way. and so it was beautiful, and i

spent that time kissing henry or holding hands with my wife or tickling my other kids. and he got more of his dad because he didn't have to be on the phone with an insurance company. so private insurance is a sin and a stain and it is just, we have to get rid of it. and so let's drastically reduce our per capita spending. >> all right. >> removing that barrier. >> okay. well i wanted to talk about it because i flew it meant a lot to you and obviously you had about as personal of an experience with it as you could have. well it was great. willie, this is just an extraordinary book. and for people who haven't seen catastrophe yet, mika and i love catastrophe. >> thank you. >> and, rob, you see the final scene, we get to the final scene and mika and i are looking at each other going, wait, is that

it. they're strolling. their not saying next. and i guess we have to quickly, alex is -- i'm sure alex is what are you doing here. you're killing all of these breaks. but i want to talk about, because we're such a huge fan of sharons. i want to talk about how you worked through this tragedy in seasons three and four. so for viewers like us, we didn't know about it. but i did think, i know mika and i both said, the fourth season was so beautiful it was a hard season to get through, it was a hard ending. but it was beautiful. and it was all earned. i mean, talk about your team and your partnership with sharon during this horrible time. >> okay. so, with the fourth season, i started to write that with sharon after henry died. and at first it was just, i want my kids to see me go to work.

and i'd like a paycheck as well. i don't care if the sitcom that i make is good. that is not important any more. but i sat down with sharon and started to write and pretty quickly i began to enjoy the writing and i found grief and work to be compatible. and sharon was wonderful. and our writers assistance chrissy was wonderful. so it is the three of us in a room, in a weird little office that we rented was close to my house in case i needed to go home and scream in the bathroom. but sometimes i would sit there in the room with them and cry and they would cry and then we would start writing again. and that is a powerful lesson. that grief is excruciating. i would never pretend other wise. but it is not incompatible with other things such as work, laughter, so i began to enjoy it and we wound up making my favorite season of the show, that fourth one. so very grateful for that show.

and in particular that season. >> rob, i i want to ask you as a public service, to our audience and people who are speaking to someone who has lost a child, just shared with you a couple of experiences i've had recently and you say to yourself what on earth could i possibly say to another person to ease this pain. so from your point of view, what felt good, what feels good? what could someone possibly say or do in that moment? >> well, okay, so i live in the u.k. where tea is a big way to express emotion. you say your overwhelmed and you don't know what to say, you make someone a cup of tea. very powerful. we should do that more. if there are dishes in my sink, do them. sand we have people doing this and it was everything happens for a reason and my grandfather had a brain tumor. i don't care about your grandfather. do you even care. let's be honest.

so this is words no value, actions, touches, incredible value. so, yeah, go more from your heart than your head. your head can't fix it, but your heart can help it. >> do the dishes. and you came and you said i want to talk about the book and talk about henry. and i also really want to talk about the rail strike. >> a little bit. >> go. >> so one of the senators aides dropped this and i don't think they wanted this to be seen on tv, but apparently the strike might cost like -- to give the paid sick leave would cost $300 million a year but the railway companies made $20 billion last year. >> record profits. >> so that is not 2% of their profits. unfortunately thor them, they're a publicly traded company, so that is easy to find. soo oops, whoever dropped this. and what they want is paid sick leave. and senators durbin and baldwin and peters, 365 days in a year,

they have 261 work days a year. that is less than 365, so if you're going to deprive the workers of paid sick leave when you interfere with the contract negotiations i want you toe no i know about it and now a few other people know too. >> and senators will be on our show very shortly. >> you put it on the table. covering a lot of ground this morning. rob delaney, so great to see you. the new book is titled "a heart that works." thank you so much. >> good to see you. we'll be right back. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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mike pence has been making the rounds promoting his book and trying out material for his netflix comedy special. >> i get to drive my own car. one of the worst parts is i get

to pay for my own gas. >> one of the advantages of being vice president is i get to drive my own car again. one of the bad parts is i get to pay for my own gas. >> you get to drive your own car. the bat pard you is you get pay for your own gas. one of the advantages of no longer being vice president is i get to to drive my own car. but the bad part is you get to pay for your own gas. but the truth is it is no laughing matter. >> no. get that man on hollywood squares. >> might want to come up with a new one. welcome back to "morning joe." >> circle marks the square. >> what say you. it is thursday, december 1st, katty kay and eugene robinson are still with us. and we start this hour, the third hour of "morning joe" with president biden and first lady jill biden. set to welcome the president of france. emmanuel macron and his wife to

the white house ahead of tonight's state dinner. the first since biden took office. as the "new york times" notes, tonight's event will provide an opportunity for diplomatic engagement with an ally pivotal to the administration's foreign policy strategy amid russia's invasion of ukraine, global inflation, and a potential energy crisis in europe. joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli. set the scene for us if you would. >> reporter: this is not just the first state dinner hosted by the biden, this is the biggest social event since koifd and since the president took office and there is a lot on the the agenda as the two are about to host a arival sale and the continued tall out of the russia's invasion, now beyond nine months. as we head into what is a cold winter for obviously for ukrainians, but also concerns as

the domestic politics concerns for both leaders is taking an increased level of concern. you have europeans worried about energy prices and you have a new republican house majority, we heard from kevin mccarthy just here at the white house saying it is not a blank check. so it is an important opportunity for the americans and the european leader, emmanuel macron. to continue to show the unity here. there is also some other high items on the agenda including france's concerns about the inflation reduction act and the tax credits that are part of the component for american made clean energy products. this is a concern for the french and for europe more broadly about what that means for their own energy market. and then you have to look at the entire state dinner and the roll out to the french president as the final set piece in a long effort to repair the rift that we saw with the so-called august deal, the nuclear submarine deal

orchestrated by the u.k. and the u.s. and australia at the detriment of the french industry there, the president last year trying to begin that repair effort on the sidelines of the g-20 when he admitted this was handled clumsy, and this is the second state dinner a matter of four years. but it is a signal of just how important the french alliance continues to be for the u.s. >> all right. mike memoli at the white house. thank you very much. greatly appreciated. and katty kay, it is a fascinating time in europe. angela merkel was the de facto leader of the e.u. now it seems like the power has shifted west to france. >> i think that president macron is going to be delighted with those photos of his intimate dinner, casual dinner last night with jill biden and his own wife and the president. it is the kind of thing that any european leader lodges for as a state visit, to have two in the

space of four years but in this particular moment to be seen as the leader in europe. and they are going to be hating these pictures in berlin and london. in london, we've got a prime minister who looks like he's going to be there for more than two weeks. so we should have a state visit too. that is the kind of language in london. they'll be happy with this in the palace. >> i was going to say, gene, that you have the elevation of the french with some of the challenges facing germany, but especially a place you covered for quite sometime. and that is of course great britain. having their own weaknesses, their own struggles. but this prime minister may survive a few weeks. >> a few weeks, yes. it is not clear exactly how long and he and the conservative majority of parliament will survive. i guess until the next election, so he could be there for a while. but britain is understandably

self-absorbed. they still have to do brexit, finish brexit, and that further distances them from europe. and so the sort of center of gravity have definitely moved east. i think macron is being boosted as essentially the de facto leader of europe and really we'rek loog even further east with the in ukraine. we're looking now at poland as a real rising power in europe given its role in the ukraine war. so, fascinating time. but things are changing. >> they certainly are. and joining us now here in washington, democratic majority whip senator dick durbin of illinois, chairman of the judiciary committee and democrat senator tammy baldwin of wisconsin. we have a lot to get to. we have got news on the economy.

but i'm curious as chairman of the judiciary committee, your thoughts on the verdicts this week, seditious conspiracy for two members of the oath keeps, including the leader. >> this is an interesting if not amazing development that there was a conviction for seditious conspiracy. the department of justice has tried this bro unsuccessfully but the events of january 6, 2021 were so clear, at least in terms of this particular defendant that the jury came to that conclusion. and i'm sure it gives some encouragement to the department of justice to pursue it. the january 6 committee in the house has laid the groundwork. we know the general story and generally what happened that day. but now they're zeroing in on specific individuals who are guilty of abusing law enforcement and attacking our capitol building. i'm sure senator baldwin and i will never forget that day. >> no. >> and this conviction is a step in the right direction to bring clarity to what happened. >> for sure. joe? >> so, senator baldwin, let's

talk about this historic week. marriage equality now protected by statute. and, again, you look at the speed and i know it seemed like a long time for a lot of meme. but just go back to 2004. you look at republicans putting this on the ballot in 2004 thinking that it was going to drum up support for republican candidates, 2008, a lot of people say how could california vote for a ban on same-sex marriage, at same time they elected barack obama. joe biden causing shock waves when he talked about supporting marriage equality in the obama white house. ten years later, here we are. over60 votes, a bipartisan vote, that seems pretty remarkable, doesn't it. >> it's remarkable. for wisconsin, the year that we altered our state constitution was 2006. defining marriage between a man

and a woman. you know what has changed is that all of my colleagues, democrat or republican, have friends, family members, staff members, who are in same-sex marriages who they have seen have fought hard over many years to be able to protect families, to access things as basic as hospital visitation or being able to be covered on their spouse's employer health insurance or parental rights that flow with a marriage certificate. and, so, all of my colleagues now know people and know families and i think that changes everything. hearts and minds, i would have love fod see more than a dozen republicans join. but this was unthinkable just a decade ago. and that is what has changed. that and u.s. supreme court case

in june that made people appropriately consider the fact that things they think are well settled maybe are not. when half of america is sent back to second class citizenship. we recognize that maybe we shouldn't be as assured in cases like loving versus virginia and obergelfeld. >> and i want to jump to the rail strike. or potential -- the house passed a bill to try to avert a rail strike and to try to bring this in for a landing. but what is it going to take. because we thought this was resolved several weeks ago. >> well it is going to take bipartisan effort. i talked to chuck schumer this morning in the senate gym and i said where are we. we're waiting for the signal from the republican side and they're ready to move today. >> what are the issues? >> well the issues are clearly republicans need to stand by us to move to this item of business. so that we have that first

initial thing and i think there will be at least two efforts to amend it. i'm not sure either one will win 60 votes. but then we'll come to the key question, which was raised by secretary buttigieg, are we going to fix this problem this week or run the risk of damaging or economy. we need bipartisanship more than ever. >> all right. and we have better than expected economic data to report. easing fears of a recession, this comes as gas prices are falling and the federal reserve considers slowing its increase of interest rates. updated numbers on last month's gdp report show that the economy grew at nearly 3% in the third quarter, which is higher than the preliminary data. and well above what was forecasted. it was the first period of positive growth for the economy this year. economists are forecasting more gains for this quarter, but the figures vary. meanwhile, it is costing americans less to fill up at the

pump. prices are the same level they were in february before russia invaded ukraine. according to the aaa, the nationwide average is now under $3.50. and price tracking company gas buddy predicts it could drop below $3 by christmas and the federal reserve gave an update on the the plans to bring down inflation. jerome powell said smaller interest rate hikes are likely and could start later this month. powell acknowledged that inflation is showing signs of slowing but he needs to see more consistent evidence that it is. and isn't that, senator, where americans are really struggling. because if it isn't inflation, it is shink flation. >> yes. a trip to the grocery store is a painful experience. >> it is. >> and it is so immediate. we obviously were noting that that was the chief concern of so

many voters going into the midterms. it is something that you see right away versus some of the other issues that are a little more distance and less direct. but it is very important that we are heading in this direction. and we need to encourage especially through, you know, the profits that we've seen some of the companies make, whether it is oil companies or we're just talking about the averting the rail strike and i think about how -- how well the rail companies have done during the pandemic and during this time of inflation. at the same time that they've been really thinning their staff and really making their workers go through excruciating choices, including not having paid sick leave. so, we're trying to get it right

in terms of the freight rail issue. avert a strike but make sure that workers get at least seven days of paid leave. and hold these corporations to account when they're bringing in record profits at a time when we're all struggling to afford the cost. >> gene robinson. >> absolutely. i think that is -- those economic numbers are actually were a surprise to me. >> they are, yeah. >> and i wonder if year not actually going to pull off this soft landing that everybody said was to improbable. it looks like we might avert any -- some sort of serious recession, which would be a real achievement by chairman powell and primarily also the administration. this is a question for both of you, really. bipartisanship, you mentioned

bipartisanship. you needed it to get through on the rail strike. have you seen any indication, from the republican side of the aisle, which didn't do as well as expected in the election, has that chastened the republican side at all, has it made it more willing to cooperate in a bipartisan way? >> well if you want an indicator, you have the senator to answer that question. because when senator baldwin managed to pull off with a respect marriage act, it was historic. and she did it, praise you don't mind, she did it by timing it properly and bringing the right people to the table and the results were after the election. and so that is a good indicator. i want to hand it off to her to comment on that. >> yeah, i think back over the past two years and there has been some remarkable achievements in a 50/50 senate with bipartisan support. the bipartisan infrastructure law is a great example. the safer communities law, which

was the first gun safety legislation that we've seen in nearly three decades. and then the respect for marriage act. obviously joining a dozen republicans along with all of the democrats. and i do see the prospect of getting more done. in fact, i think if the midterms are about anything, it was a rejection of extremism on the part of republicans who were -- who were the election deniers who were celebrating the dobbs decision, and other views that are -- our american voters hold as extreme. so i think there is a further path for bipartisanship and wed need to seize it while it is there. >> thank you both very much for dropping in here and in washington. it is so nice to be in washington. some other news, a large vigil took place at the university of idaho last night in honor of the four young

students killed in a mystery that is still unsolved this morning. nbc news correspondent morgan chesky has details. >> reporter: at the university of idaho. emotional pleas and prayers. >> and we ask that memory of ethan, kaley, zana and madison, be a light. >> and as friends an family of the four students lost came together to grieve. the father of caylee sharing her daughter was with her best friend in their final moments. >> they came together and in the end they died together. in the same room, in the same bed. >> while thousands pack the school football stadium for the memorial, other schools across the state held similar vigils for the four friends found stabbed to death at this off-campus house over two weeks ago. one criminal profiler say the attacker might have been in the very crowd.

>> it won't be surprising if the killer would show up at some of these public events. simply to observe, if you will, the outcome of his crime. >> reporter: early in the investigation, police described the attack as targeted. but didn't disclose their basis for that conclusion. now it is possible the house not necessarily any of the individuals was the killer's focus. >> is there anything investigators to tell this community to ease their fears about a potential murderer being out there? >> well, what i can say is that we continue to investigate 24/7. we have 50 agents and detectives on the ground. >> reporter: with no suspects names and no murder weapon found, police are turning to the public to help fill in a detailed time line. >> it would be nice to know who they interacted with and what routes they took to go home. >> reporter: a community shaken to its core. still waiting for answers. >> make sure that you spend as

much time as possible with those people because time is precious and it is something that you can't get back. >> morgan chesky reporting from idaho on a mystery that remains unsolved. the prince and princess of wales are in boston today, continuing the first oversees visit since the death of queen elizabeth, while a royal controversy plays out back home. chief international correspondent keir simmons reports. >> reporter: as william and catherine arrived there boston, reintroducing themselves to america as prince and princess of wales. a new racism rou back home again threatens the reputation of the royal family. prince william's mother resigned a new role as aide to queen camilla after she questioned a black charity boss about her heritage at a buckingham palace event. she tweeted the exchange with camilla's aide which reads what nationality are you?

i'm born here and i'm british. but where do you come from. where do your people come from. an eyewitness describing her shock at the exchange. >> if it goes to a white woman, that line of questioning wouldn't have taken place. >> reporter: the princess and prince will hope this doesn't overshadow their visit here. a spokesperson for the royal couple saying racism has no place in our society. but in the caribbean this year, william and kate were criticized for arriving in a white land rover and shaking hands with young people of color through a wire fence. and in their oprah interview, harry and meghan claimed a member of the royal family asked what color their child would be. >> there is a conversation with you -- >> with harry. >> about how dark your baby is going to be. >> potentially and what that would mean or look like. >> and that prompted the question to prince william? >> is the royal family a racist family?

>> we're very much not a racism family. >> katty kay, how big of a deal is thi in the u.k. >> it is a blow to kate and william as they turn up in boston. it is interesting that the prince of wales very quickly put out a statement affirming what he said in that clip just there, racism has no place in our society. it is something that the royal family is really under scrutiny follow following the comments by meghan in the interview with oprah winfrey. there was not much sympathy in the u.k. for meghan or for harry but i this this incident has made people think, maybe what meghan was saying in that interview with oprah winfrey, perhaps we need to look at it in a slightly different light. on friday, meghan and harry will be in new york getting an awart for their positions fighting systemic racism. again, the rift within the royal family are extreme and painful for the royal family. but this is an issue they can't duck any more and in an instance like this keep happening.

>> there is such a massive generational divide, too. gene robinson, you have this woman in her 80s who was -- who worked for queen elizabeth for years. and i think that is in part one reason why royal watchers want and why i'm sure the royal family want william out there so much along with kate. because they're the face of the future for the monarchy and obviously decades, decades removed from people who have very antiquated notions of race, very antiquated notions of what society looks like in britain, across the world. >> exactly right. but it is a multi-cultural, very diverse society now and, look, if the monarchy is going to survive and thrive, it is going to have to become a more modern monarchy. and it is going to have to avoid

incidents like the one at the palace the other day. and so, yes, it is -- i'm sure they're very eager to effect this generational change. and at least get the language right. and the appearances right. and then they could start working on the deeper issues and perhaps play a role in society that is seen as constructive. >> and you know, mika, that is one of the things that we talked about while we were over in london. it was just remarkable how london had turned into this post modern extraordinarily post modern remarkably diverse city and they seemed to do it almost seamlessly. and so much of that was attached to the queen. and she'd have her garden parties for people who did acts of service in britain. and there would always be migrants to great britain there and people that were born in

great britain. i think in london, i think 40, 45% of the population is white in london right now. and again, you go to london, we went there for the funeral, and it was seamless. we love to think of ourselves in america as the melting pot. we're having some problems right now doing that seamlessly. somehow over the queen's reign, we went from an ancient empire to a post modern racially diverse country and they've done it remarkably well. >> they really have. still ahead on "morning joe," former president trump's tax returns are now in the hands of the house ways and means committee. we'll talk about what it means for democrats during this lame duck congress. plus ken mccarthy issues a new warning to the house select committee investigating january 6. we'll look at that and how chairman bennie thompson is responding. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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after years of back and forth, court battles, the house ways and means committee finally has access to former president trump's tax returns. the treasury department said yesterday it has complied with the supreme court order that allows committee to view the documents. a democrat on the panel tells nbc news, committee members expect to learn more about trump's taxes during a meeting later today. at this point it is unclear what democrats plan to do with the documents. and republicans on the committee have said they're not interesting in trump's tax records. and what could democrats, jen, do at this point and what is of interest do you think to them? what are they looking for the most. >> the trump tax returns are the big white wail that the democrats have wanted for years. there is a lot of things. one, know how much he's paid in taxes if he's paid taxes.

now he might argue, look, i've worked the system, the system is broken. >> he's smart and he's a campaign thing. >> and that is what they'll do and i think they know but they could call him out as a fraud. this is a guy who said he is a hugely successful man. well let's see and your tax returns do tell you that. so we'll see what they do. my bet is they're dive into it and figure out how to trickle this out. >> joe? >> yeah, there is also, again, he could say well, you know, i know how to game the system so well i didn't pay taxes all these years. there were also "new york times" reports a couple of years ago that i believe it was during the 1980s and parts of 1990s, he lost more money than any other american that -- whose tax returns they were going through. i mean, he was just a colossal failure as a businessman any way you put it.

>> this is like terrible news for donald trump right at the wrong time. you have the new york attorney general looking into his taxes and his corporate stuff. jen is right. you put the smart people on the investigative committee on these tax returns and they're going to find the things that he said in new york that are different than what he said in his taxes. he's going to go straight at this corporate issue exactly at the wrong time and it goes to his absolute underbelly of a problem which is he's always been a liar. he's always been a guy who just said one thing and does exactly the other. and voters are starting to wake up to this. but the worst part is he's now got real people with subpoena power with these taxes who are not going to stop and whatever they have, when republicans take over, they're just going to hand it to the new york attorney and she'll continue this investigation. >> so david ignatius, we'll get a sense of where he got his money from perhaps? >> we'll see better than we have how he built his business and to what extent he really built

something real. as opposed to a licensing operation in recent years. >> right. >> but if you're looking at the tax issue and the whole range of political problems that trump has, the air is just going out of this balloon. we're watching the finally i think the real deflation of the trump as a financial wizards, as a political wizard, people are not as afraid of them as they were. you see that bipartisan group of members of congress last night and it was a different feeling than i've had in last few years. people willing to -- republicans willing to criticize him and tell the truth about him. >> people cringing more even some republicans going, mmm, i just don't know if i need this any more. willie. >> so let's turn to arizona. joe mentioned it. an astounding story where one county is delaying the certification of the midterm election results which could

have unintended consequences for a number of republicans who have won. cochise county, arizona, refused to certify the votes citing voter fraud without any evidence. if they do not certify by december 8th, katie hobbs said the votes of the 50,000 residents will not be included in the final tally. without those votes two close races would flip from republican victories to democratic wins. p arizona six congressional district would go t a democrat. also it would flip the race for state support of public instruction from a republican victory to a democrat. so, katty kay, you've spent a lot of time in arizona, you were there covering kari lake and everything that republicans are doing out there and continue to do. so, just to sort of recap this story, they're protesting because they say there was voter

fraud. there was not, there is no evidence of that. they're going to withhold those votes and by doing so lose themselves two elections that they won. >> yeah, this is holding yourself to purity and in politics in a way that is completely destructive to your own party it seems. because if they go ahead with this, they are enabling democrats to have more power than less. what is fascinating is watching kari lake. because she's -- when i interviewed her over the summer and spent time with her, she was bombastic, reveled if the fight and in owning the libs. >> extremely confident. >> supremely confident in a way that is bash. i would say she's a skillful retail politician, i've seen her work a room are voters and she's really good at it so you shouldn't write her off as a political force because she has a talent there. but just watching her twitter feed recently and the videos that come out of it, she's subdued. she's not defeated but she'sp not fighting any more.

there is a real tell there. >> you definitely see something going on behind -- >> a little defeated. >> a little defeated. but still kicking. >> well, how fascinating, that she finds herself alone, all of the election deniers, a major election deniers all lost their elections. and i know a lot of republicans thought they were going to own the libs. it is all about owning the libs. how fascinating that now we're seeing that we always talk about stephen miller getting sushi at a restaurant, being shouted at and after buying the expensive sushi, throwing it away thinking he was owning the libs by not eating the expensive sushi that he paid for. this takes it to, i guess, it is natural conclusion where they're now wanting to own the libs by losing elections directly. i mean, but you look at this,

and you just overall conservatives, trumpers have built this industry where they're like we could make millions of dollars owning the libs writing books, make millions of dollars owning the libs doing podcasts and make millions of dollars owning the libs on a cable news prime time show. we could make millions of dollars owning the libs starting websites. which is all great. they can. right. if that is what they want to do. we find out, though, it loses elections. and that is what we've said, not just here in 2017, they lost elections in 2018 and in 2019 and lost elections in 2020, it lost elections in 2022. it lost elections. and now it is gotten so extreme they're not going to certify a county voteez that is going to cost them a seat in congress and a state wide constitutional seat. >> joe, it is absolutely political mal practice.

and what are the house republicans doing this week? they're steering in this landslide band of idiocy. they're putting lauren boebert on the policy committee and giving marjorie taylor green back her committee assignments and refusing to condemn donald trump for going to a white supremacist meeting. they're continuing to let the crazies in their base drive this party and they're driving it start off. and to make your point, every single state wide election deniers around this country lost the election and yet they steer right into it. no one is walking into arizona to say though those locals, you guys are killing us. and instead kevin mccarthy is doubling down on it. it is just terrible politics. >> coming up, kevin mccarthy is ready to investigate january 6 but not the attack an owe the capitol. he wants to dig up dirt on the committee in charge of finding out the truth about the insurrection. that is all ahead on "morning joe."

minority leader kevin mccarthy has issued a flu warning to the house select committee, in a letter to chairman thompson, mccarthy said the committees work will be investigated once republicans take the control of the house in januar mccarthy who did not comply with the subpoena to appear before the committee demanded the panel preserve its records. house rules already require that the committee do so and they'll be doing so for a number of reasons. anyhow, mccarthy goes on to accuse the panel of not telling the full story of january 6. the attack on the capitol. and pledges to hold hearings on it in the future. speaking to reporters off camera yesterday, chairman thompson responded to mccarthy's letter saying in part, he had a chance

to have members on the committee, we will do our work and we will end december 31st. if he wants to conduct whatever he wants as speaker, it's his choice. joe, what is kevin mccarthy doing? another hot stove thing? >> as ronald reagan would say, there they go again. it is, david ignatius, there they go again. they learned absolutely no lessons from what has happened to them in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2022. and instead making all of these decisions and mistakes that a small house majority, that democrats will be able to use effectively against them over the next two years and into the 24 election. but mccarthy instead of trying to play to voters that they keep losing, by talking about taxes,

by talking about balanced budgets, by talking about regulatory, whatever republicans want to talk about to get those suburban voters back. they're doing these extreme things, virtue signaling, talking about investigating the investigators. it was a disaster for durham. it will be even worse for these people. and defending, coming out and demanding justice for the january 6 rioters and insurrectionists. these are the very people who lost the suburbs for republicans. who lost the 22 election for republicans who are lost the 2020 election for republicans. who lost all of those other elections for republicans. and they're running straight toward this same tornado that keeps knocking their house down. >> you might say they're ignoring the first rule of holes, which is stop digging. and they keep digging. they seem determined to

relitigate the jan 6 hearings. if they would have taken part in the first place. i think we'll have a circus in the house no matter what. no sign that the republicans will see getting something done legislatively makes more sense than these sort of prop moves. the action that we need to focus on i think is going to take place in the justice department and in federal district courts. the conviction of stewart rhodes of oath keepers for seditious conspiracy is a big deal. >> yeah. >> it is obvious that our attorney general merrick garland sees it as a significant basis for prosecutors of that type. they're seeing the courts will accept this very deep description of what happened january 6. and if merrick garland decides to go with that and move up and take the evidence that the

january 6 committee provides and begin to turn it into actual legal cases, you know, kevin mccarthy and the house -- >> it is a parallel universe. >> all of the hearings they want but the action in the litigation, and the decisions people will face about whether to cooperate or whether to face really significant prison time is, that is going to be the issue of the next year. >> coming up, we'll talk with the top democrat in charge of winning seats for the u.s. senate. gary peters weighs in on the runoff election in georgia, now just five days away. that is ahead on "morning joe." trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪

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welcome back. former president barack obama is headed to georgia for raphael warnock. democrats hope the events will

boost turnout as much as possible before the early voting window closing tomorrow. there has been a ton of early voting, record setting, in fact. this would be the second show of support from the obamas. first lady michelle obama recorded a couple of robocalls for the senator to be used to leading up to and on election day. as of this morning, 1 million georgians have cast their ballots in the senate runoff. on the republican side, some supporters of herschel walker are worried he's taking his foot off the gas at the end of the race. "the new york times" reports the decision to skip campaigning over the crucial thanksgiving holiday weekend has walker's republican allies airing frustrations and concerns about his campaign strategy in the final stretch of the overtime election against senator warnock. democrats point out they've gotten a head start on republicans in their early voting push and are drowning out the gop on the airwaves outspending them 2-1. the paper continues, time is running out fast for walker to make inroads with the moderate

conservatives who did not support him during the general election. so, jen psaki, it's very rich that republicans now five days away are realizing that herschel walker might be a bad candidate and doesn't campaign well. >> right. we pneumos ago, willie. pneumos ago. >> exactly. >> hasn't taken questions from reporters in two months. there's this new rule reporters can't get within 20 feet of herschel walker so they can't shout questions to him. there's a new poll today that has warnock up only two to pints, minimum margin of error rates there. >> georgia is a purple state. this is not a state even with the strength of reverend warnock as a strong candidate and a powerful candidate. it still is going to be a close race. there are some very good signs here, willie, not just herschel walker's craziness. every time he opens his mouth about vampires or whatever. also the fact that the early turnout numbers are so high,

women are turning out, young people are turning out. these are groups, while we don't know who everybody voted for, but are typically good for democrats and they've been really focusing on turning out. another interesting sign to me in this week's ray is in the weeks post the election, the walker campaign was running ads on transgender, attacking transgender people. this to me tells me they're still trying to appeal to conservatives and get them in line. that is a better sign for warnock. >> joe, i wonder if they're not concerned about him doing much in the final run of the campaign, perhaps less is more at this point because every time he gets on stage it's crazy. >> yeah. >> from now on, from now on, when a candidate decides they're not going to debate, they're not going to go ut and campaign aggressively, and people are pushing the candidate, the

candidate's going to go, yeah, but katie hobbs. kari lake was chasing a ghost and never caught her. it's still amazing how little katie hobbs did publicly, but she won, which, jim messina, again, i always said, you can't beat something with nothing. yeah, you can't beat something with nothing. well, i'm not so sure anymore. i know katie hobbs is a great public servant, she did extraordinarily well as secretary of state, all-american, she'd be very grateful for the strength she showed when american democracy was on the line. i salute her for that. as far as her campaign goes, nothing. she basically goes to kari lake and she won, which, again, goes back to our theme of the day, which is, again, this extremism we're seeing in the house, this extremism we saw in arizona, this extremism we're now seeing

in these ads, i mean, it's just -- again, it's not working. it's malpractice, and yet they keep doing it over and over again. >> these crazy candidates who are terrible. if you're going to run a karri lake, the democrats should go away. i'm with mika on georgia. i think it's smart for walker to go away for a little bit. >> don't talk. please. >> yeah. you look at the ad warnock has on the air right now, it is literally herschel walker talking for 60 seconds about vampires. >> bliterring. >> it's driving voters. this is a turnout election. after $300 million of spending, there is not one swing voter left in georgia. this is about turnout and democrats should let herschel walker talk all they want, bring barack obama and my kjell in there and get it over with. >> because of the changes in the moods down there, the democrats were very focused on turnout.

>> yes. >> they were extra focused this cycle because of what had happened in the state legislature and they were going to make sure they got there and that operation is still affected. >> they got the court win. >> on saturday. yep. >> jim messina, thank you so much. great to have you in. coming up, nato doubles down on its commitment to one day include ukraine. we'll speak live with the u.s. ambassador to nato when "morning joe" comes back. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control.

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we're watching live pictures right now just before the top of the hour from the white house, where president biden and first lady jill biden are set to welcome the president of france, emmanuel macron, and his wife to the white house for an official state visit. it follows their private dinner last night at an italian restaurant in