to know how democrats can improve their lives. and they have watched warnock show up for that. in ways that we can't imagine before 2020. so, voters are eager to get to the polls again they know who raphael warnock. as they know that they do not want warnock -- walker to represent them. and so, we'll show up and we're gonna turn out, or helping them mitigate, or find ways to get around a voter suppression. and helping them figure out when and where devout. and if we do that, chris, we're gonna weigh. and we're feeling. great >> will be keeping our eyes on keeping our eyes on it. that is "all in" on this thursday night. alex wagner starts right now. good evening. >> good evening, chris. thank you. we've all heard it as a child.

if you have young ones, i bet you said it to your child today. quote, the answer is no. the answer is no to mr. donald j. trump. here it is, the quote. this appeal requires us to consider whether the district court has jurisdiction to block the united states from using lawfully seized records in a criminal investigation. the answer is no. we have breaking news tonight in the federal criminal investigation of donald trump and the curious case of the missing 13,000 government records that were found squirreled away at the former president's beach club in florida. tonight the 11th circuit court of appeals has thrown out the special master that trump fought for and who was put in place by a trump-appointed judge. that judge, eileen cannon in florida, took trump's side and appointed a third-party arbiter, a referee, if you will, to sift through the thousands of government records, many of them classified, that the fbi seized from mar-a-lago in august.

the problem with appointing a special master here, the government argued that it hindered their ongoing criminal investigation. ssentially they said, we need those documents. a lot of legal experts saw this whole special master game but as the president's plan to slow-walk the investigation including the justice department which appealed it. tonight the 11th circuit court of appeals in atlanta has said, sorry, mr. president, you are now out of luck. they said, quote, it's a side show, and they did not stop there. they said in no uncertain terms about trump's argument, quote, the government disagrees with each contention. tonight it's attributed to all three judges on the panel, no single judge authored it.

it's a showing of solidarity, and that's significant because those three judges were all nominated by republican presidents. two of them were nominated by trump themselves. let me tell you, those judges did not hold back, quote, in considering these arguments we are faced with a choice, apply our usual test, drastically expand the availability of equitable jury is dix for every subject of a search warrant or serve out an unprecedenteder plachblt they chose the first. we chose the sane one, which shuts this whole thing down. the ruling continues. the law is clear. we cannot write a rule that allows any subject of a search warrant to block government investigations after the execution of the warrant, nor can we write a rule that allows only former presidents to do so.

either approach would be a radical reordering of our case law, limiting the federal court's involve 347b9 in criminal investigations and both would violate bedrock separation of powers of separations of limitations. we agree with the government government. with this evenings ruling, the justice department theoretically if trump doesn't appeal this, they can reveal the documents as soon as next week. it has not stopped the justice department and the newly appointed special counsel from kochblting its investigation. "the new york times" is reporting today that today's decision from the 11th circuit comes on a busy an very important day for special counsel jack smith. the decision came on the same day that three close aides to trump appeared before a grand jury in waf that is investigating mr. trump's

handling of the documents, according to two people familiar with the matter. the aides includes dan scavino and william russell and william harrison who worked for trump when he was in the white house. in recent weeks several witnesses have appeared in front of grand jury in federal district court in washington. nbc news has not confirmed that stop the presses information, but if this reporting bears out, the special counsel in the mar-a-lago trump documents case is ramping up on a day where mr. trump has once again lost in court. joining us now is charlie savage who is covering the story from "the new york times" and neil katya who was the former solicitor general during the obama administration. gentlemen, thank you both for being here. i found this ruling quite a doozy. that's not quite the official legal term, but how did you read

it? >> yeah, federal appeals judges generally talk in very plain understated language. this was not understated. this was these three judges tearing apart donald trump's legal argument. donald trump did get a good lucky early break. he drew a judge initially over the summer, judge cannon who seemed inclined to entertain all sorts of wackadoodle arguments, but as luck ran out, he drew a panel that was consecutively conservative. they basically said this is a terrible legal guchlt one quote that you didn't show that i want to share with our viewers is this. the court said toward the end that trump's argument, quote, defies our nation's foundational principle that our law appies to all would regard to numbers, wealth, or rank. essentially what the court was saying is, trump, you want

special privilege here just because you're the former president. you don't get that. you're treated just like anyone else, and nobody else would get a special master for their criminal investigation after they stole a bunch of secret government documents. >> neil, it's an indictment of trump's strategy, but it's also just an embarrassment for judge cannon, is it not? this whole thing is effectively a rebuke to her contention that she can step in and make a ruling here. >> yeah. i mean it's about as much of a body slam as you can get. i think one other ancillary effect and i'm sure charlie has been thinking about this as well is what this does to jack smith's investigation because if you're the special counsel, you've now been handed the on a golden platter. you have three very conservative judges saying essentially your investigation's legitimate, you can go forward, trump banked on the reverse. he had hoped they would slow or stop or stymie or discredit this

investigation and all he got was 18 pages of huh-uh, no way, this investigation is legitimate and they're going to go forward and investigate this very serious crime. >> the answer is no, donald trump. charlie, to that end, to neil's point, what does that do to jack smith and the special counsel's timeline here? >> certainly it takes the handcuffs off. he had already been freed by the 11th circuit to use -- he's gotten there but to use the people to look at the hundreds of classified documents in the investigation. now there will be no more fetters when this collapse to use the 13,000 pages of stuff that's evidence about what this was being stored with, who maybe had access to it and so forth that are all going to be adding up to the ultimate decision of whether to bring charges. i would say there's another element here that is --

shouldn't be overlooked, which is one of the things jack smith is going to have to decide at some point if he does say he's going to move forward with asking the grand jury to indict someone in this case, whether it's trump or some of his aides, is where to bring those charges. the most obvious place to bring them is in florida. that's where the documents are being held. that's where the obstruction happened, if there was a chargeable obstruction, even though the grand jury who defied it was based in dc. in addition to bringing the charges to florida, however, is eileen cannon could end up with this case. under the rules down there, if some judge has already dealt with something and then there's a related matter that is filed, either of the parties can file a motion to move that case to the judge who originally had it. the idea is to not have two different judges having to get up to speed and wasting judicial resources. obviously this justice

department does not want a criminal case if they bring one to go before this judge, and so ordering this case dismissed at this point on such sweeping grounds, not letting herget to a new motion that the trump people filed just a few days ago to get the search warrant affidavit released without redactions, not letting herget more hooks into the case may prove the chances that if jack smith decides to bring charges in florida as opposed to dc. >> that's a very interesting twist in all of this, neil. you do have an opinion on whether judge cannon may have seen the error of some of her ways because at points in all of this, she has reversed course rather quickly when effectively slapped back by other courts. i mean do you think she continues on her course thus far chartd as being a trump defender, or do you think that there's -- go ahead.

>> i guess if she can read, she's got to be able to see the error of her own ways because 18 pages of you're absolutely wrong start to fetish. i disagree with charlie a little bit. i guess if there's a criminal indictment, it's always been in dc. that's where the documents were stolen from. that's where the grand jury is sitting. and so i always thought it was going to be there regardless. and i think the justice department is very, very wary of ever being seen as trying to shop for a certain judge. we've certainly seen a lot of forum shopping by other participants, but you don't see it at the justice department. it's like one of the cardinal rules at the organization. the one kind of exception is if you do have someone who's truly acting lawlessly. i agree with charlie that this is an additional fact that the department would consider, but i think it was going to be in dc through and through, no matter

what, just given the nature of these charges and where the documents were located. >> what about the timeline for it, thinking they would have to -- the justice department would have to wait until the judge finished his review. if this does not go to the appeals and deary is effectively taken off of this next thursday do, we have an expectation on what's next? we know there's an intelligence review on the classified information. do we have any sense of when this may be wrapping up? >> everything was a little bit on hold because we were moving through the 60 days leading up to the election and because of this document review, and, by the way, it wasn't just until judge dearie, the special master, finished his review. that was going to be the end of part one of his process. was going to make a report and recommendations of judge cannon

under her vision and she would start over and decide for herself and maybe have briefings and arguments along the way. the delays her process may have pushed this case into went well beyond dearie taking a look at it. this moves things along in that respect. what we don't know is how much information they still don't know in terms of missing puzzle pieces. at the top level, what was trump saying to his aides at various points in time that would show his knowledge torsion what extent did he trect them not to turn over certain documents? is he able to say he just didn't know? the reason why these aides of his are coming before the grand jury -- and there's still, i think, many more of those interviews to be done. and zwrouft continue the conversation with neil about whether it's obvious dc would be the venue here. you see the documents were stolen in dc, but if trump were

still president jan 20th at noon when the documents were put in box boxes and taken out of the white house and shipped to mar-a-lago, he had every right to do that. so it's the retention of them months later, a year later when he's not the president an he received a subpoena for them and he still doesn't give them back. it's the unauthorized retention of them, not the taking of them that's thecleanest espionage offense here. that's not smug that happened in dc. it happened in florida. >> i have one more question in terms of documents about where they are. there was some talk about documents being stored elsewhere. do we have a sense the justice dmts is looking at bedminster or trump tower? have they sort of given up on finding the rest of what may be hoarded or squirrelled away documents that belong to the government? >> well, i have no confidence -- i do not think they think they have gotten all the documents.

they've said as much in court filings and court arguments. i think the search of bedminster and trump tower is one of those oversteps they're probably not going to do leading up to the midterm election because of the 60-day rule of not doing things that would interfere with politics and the election. they would also need probable cause for a search warrant that something was there, not half baked decisions. that's something they'll look at as they grill trump's aides in a jury room. >> i have one more question for you. do you think this is done, door you think this is going to end up at the supreme court? >> trump will try as he always tries to delay everything and bring everything through, but i think the supreme court will make short work of this very fast and the justice department should expedite decisions with the supreme court right away.

this has been a terrible week for trump, alex. his tax returns, he unanimously lost that to the supreme court. they turned that over. former chief of staff mark meadows has been ordered to testify in front of a grand jury, and now trump is watching his favorite judge in florida basically be told you're fired by the three judges at work. so it's a bad, bad week. >> yeah, "the apprentice: the judicial version." thank you both for being here tonight, guys. really appreciate it. coming up this hour, ahead of tomorrow's final day of early voting in georgia's senate runoff, democrats have sent in the closer. but first president biden is hosting french president imam yum macron at the white house tonight in his very first state dinner. that's in striking contrast to another recent dinner held by a former president, one that is continuing to raise questions about the relationship between

republicans and extremists. we'll be joined after the break with our next guest to discuss. stay with us. discuss stay with us eric will realize they're gonna need more space... gotta sell the house. oh...open houses. or, skip the hassles and sell with confidence to opendoor. wow. request a cash offer at opendoor.com nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: just stop. go for a run. go for 10 runs! run a marathon. instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette.

this evening president biden is hosting a white house state dinner with french president emmanuel ma con. today the two leaders stressed the importance of their two states and partnership. the two promised to stand together against putin's brutality in, quote, the fight for freedom. now, the reason president macron is at the white house engaging in this type of diplomacy is he won a free and fair election in spring against his country's far right leader marie le pen. this is the second time he beat her, severely limiting immigration and banning jobs in public. le pen ran on a party founded by her father who has engaged in

anti-semitism for decades until 2015 when his comments bake so unpopular she had to withdraw from her dad's party. macron defeated le pen in april by about 17 points which sounds like a lot, but was a smaller margin that in the 2017 election and her party picked up enough french seats in pair lament to deny macron's party the majority. so despite fending off far right political forces of bigotry at the ballot box, both president biden and president macron are dealing with the far right aftermath. indeed we saw the poisen of the far right just this afternoon while biden and macron were publicly affirming their relationship when kanye west, a longtime friend of former president donald trump who has recent willy gone an several

anti-sem mitt trick tic diatribes, when he appears on a show. he's become an object of fascination on the right while expressing some of the most toxic and bigoted rhetoric you have heard from the mouth of pattern who still tends to endamage in society. kanye west has been doing it for years, and trump world invited him in quite literally. kanye west said slavery was a choice and reportedly proclaimed his love for hitler and nazis in a part of that tmz interview, donald trump invited kanye west to the oval office. >> one of the moves i love that liberals try to do, the liberals would try to control the black person through the concept of the black race because they know we're proud. when i say i like trump, they

say, oh, racist. you think racism can control me? that won't stop me? >> i'm open-minded. >> can he speak for you? >> he can speak any time he wants for me. smart cook kim he gets it. >> he gets it. that's what trump said of a black celebrity who in the very same conversation said the concept of race sichl is to control black people. he can speak for me. he's a guy who gets it. kanye west has a mental health condition. has become a sort of avatar of trumpism. he's become sort of a right wing media darling. when tucker carlson interviewed west in october, he made anti-semitic arguments that carlson never aired. this is how tucker carlson introduced his interview with kanye west. >> days ago during fashion week in paris, west accompanied by

candace owens wore a t-shirt that simply read "white lives matter." the response was instantaneous and uniform, shock, horror, rage. the enemies of his ideas dismissed west as they have for years as mentally ill, too crazy to take seriously. look away, ignore him. he's a mental patient. there's nothing to see here. but is west crazy? you can judge for yourself as we're about to show you. fast forward to november. get who's coming to dinner in november, kanye west and nick fuentes who sat down for a meal with the former president. that meal was not just a social call. it was an activist meeting to bring trump closer to the base of his party. trump reportedly asked fuentes for his take on trump's speech announcing his 2024 presidential bid. fuentes criticized trump for being too scripted.

he went on to say trump represented the side of the base that was disappointed with trump's speech and trump said at one point of fuentes, quote, i really like this guy, he gets me, according to reports. that dinner with the bigotry of fuentes and west as the centerpiece recently put the republicans in a difficult position. leaders including mitch mcconnell spoke out against it when asked recently. >> first let me just say there is no room in the republican party for anti-semitism or white supremacy, and anyone meeting with people advocating that point of view in my judgment are highly unlikely to ever be elected president of the united states. >> and yet when mitch mcconnell made those remarks, this tweet was still up on the house

judiciary twitter page, kanye, elon, trump. it was posted on day six after whet's meeting with trump. two days after kanye west made anti-semitic remarks on infowars with alex jones, house republicans finally, finally got around to delete that tweet. appearing with nick fuentes, west again professed his love of hitler and nazis. he says, quote, he sees good things about hitler, and he claims every person has, quote, something of value they brought to the table, especially hitler. more republicans came out to disavow kanye west today, including the republican jewish coalition and house republican leader kevin mccarthy who called the remarks, quote, unbelievable. but aside from disavowing fuentes and west as people, it's unclear which part of west's

ideology of hitler. it comes at a very perilous moment when this country is grappling with white nationalist extremism and domestic terrorism. in the past months we've seen advisories and reports raising concerns about the threat of domestic terrorism, predominantly from white supremacists, anti-government extremists, threats specifically targeting jewish, migrant, and lgbtq community. we're fighting against a real problem, root rot and anti-semitism and racism that has affected the base of one of the two major political parties in this country. can it be uprooted and if so, how. joining us now is ibram x. kendi. dr. kendi, it's an honor and pleasure to have you on this

show especially at a deeply and critical moment in american culture and politics. when you hear the comments by kanye west, when you see the sort of frothing over him, the elevation of someone like nick fuentes, i have to ask you s that how hate spreads? is this the mechanism by which the poison of racism and anti-semitism affects society? >> it is, alex, and in my work i try to talk about the producers of bigoted ideas or racist ideas or anti-semitic ideas and consumers, and typically these producers of ideas have massive platforms like a kanye west or donald trump, and they produce and mass spread these ideas, and people who trust them or think highly of them, consume them, knowing they're not consuming hate, and they repeat them and continue circulating them. so that's precisely how these

ideas spread like a virus. >> why -- i mean i guess i'm asking a sort of theoretical question that has a practical application. why does it spread? what is it about the hate that is so embraceable by certain parts of our society? >> well, i think two major reasons if not many that i want to high light. first is typically bigoted ideas are simple. they explain complicated phenomena. so like the idea, for instance, that black people are dangerous, which is a racist idea, explains why black people are disproportionately incarcerated or even being killed by police, so they're simple, and they explain these complicated phenomena. typically they reinforce the beliefs that people already have, and people typically imagine that people have more because they are more.

peep typically generalize individual negativities with particular groups, particularly jewish people and people of color and women and gay people, so it reinforces what people already think. >> i guess i wonder when you look at the way -- when you look at the response from within the republican parties in a moment like this, first of all, how satisfied are you with this sort of disavowals from leadership like kevin mccarthy, and what more needs to be done? >> i just see it as a political calculation in which democrats consistently during that past election characterize republican politicians as extremists, and i see republicans now trying to in a way sort of distance themselves from extremism wrapped in a nick fuentes, and that extremism, of coursing

being white supremacy. they support voter suppression, and republicans generally do too. white supremacists support anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies and republicans do too. white supremacists support rolling back reproductive health and so on down the line. when you look at the policies that white supremacists are advancing and that republicans are advancing, they're pretty much one in the same. >> and then there's the stark reality that people like marjorie taylor greene and paul gosar are going to be reassigned committee seats after having said things like comparing president biden to hitler. i mean these are people who speak at white nationalist events, so it seems nearly impossible to eradicate the virus of white supremacy from the republican party when as you point out the policy itself nears that of a white supremacist policy and the

interlockiters are. how do you precede when one parties is a poise than could kill democracy itself? >> i think first and foremost many people are attracted to bigoted ideas, to white supremacy, to forms of anti-semitism because of the ways in which they're hurting, because of the ways in which they've been led to believe the government isn't working for them, the president isn't working for them. as you try to create justice for all people and create a true and robust educational system, people feel less of a need. but i also think it's important particularly for white americans who are largely the target of these republican elected officials and certainly white

supremacists to know that one of the oldest white supremacist talking points is that white people are the true victims. is that diversity and multiculturalism or antiracism or anti-white. that's a talking point. unfortunately white people and people of color and people in general aren't learning about the issue of racism and white supremacy, they don't know when they're being hoodwinked. >> when you talk about learning the history and you focus on education as a way of combatting this, how depressing -- i mean we look at the fight that is happening over education and the discussion of race in the classroom and the way in which we teach history in our country and that is being litigated and in many ways poisoned by a right wing who's intent on bringing christian nationalism into the classroom. what is the rest of the country to do in this situation. >> well, ultimately, i think when we look at the corer of

this issue, it's really an issue about power and policy, and you have white supremacists and even republicans who are using bigoted ideas to gain power so they can institute policy that benefits people like them. and so really we can't be distracted by these bigoted ideas, by racist ideas. tony morrison often talked about racism as a distraction because so many people are distracted and they need to figure out and see the true source of their harm, which is not people who don't look like them. it's typically often times people who they're voting for, who have taught them that they're their saviors when we need to look around and see our neighbors as our saviors. >> our neighbors are our saviors. we're all in it together. ibram x. kendi, it's such a joy to have you on the show and to

hear your words of wisdom when a lot of us feel quite lost. dr. kendi, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> of course. thank you for having me. still ahead tonight, leaks for the supreme court has many people concerned including members of congress who want answers and they want accountn't. judiciary committee member sheldon whitehouse joins me to discuss. and the georgia runoff, there's no shortage of scandal facing republican herschel walker as senator raphael warnock brings out the closer. that's next. stay with us. out the closer. that's next. stay with us we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy!

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since the last time i was here mr. walker talked about important issues, like whether it's better to be a vampire or a werewolf. this is a debate that i must confess i once had myself. when i was 7. then i grew up.

in case you're wondering, by the way, mr. walker decided he wanted to be a werewolf, which is great. as far as i'm concerned, he can be anything he wants to be except for a united states senator. >> that was president obama stumping for democratic senator raphael warnock tonight down in atlanta. with the special election five weeks away some have voted early. herschel walker has tapped former secretary of state mike pompeo. i shouldn't laugh. even mike pompeo appears to be a tough booking for the walker campaign. former secretary of state canceled his appearance with walker at the last minute, citing a family issue. walker is also facing yet another damning allegation of physical assault if there an ex-partner.

there are just five days left until this runoff election, and despite the apparent and pretty clear asymmetry here, both candidates have a lot to do in terms of mobilization. but if herschel walker is losing the support of his own elected officials and can't book mike pochl puello, he may want to rethink his closing argument. we'll be right back. rethink his closing argument we'll be right back. . go for 10 runs! run a marathon. instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette.

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evangelical leader who formed a multi-million dollar scheme to wine and dine supreme court justices in an effort to push an agenda, a plan that worked. a few weeks ago shank told "the new york times" he was ticked off in advance to the supreme court's landmark 2014 hobby lobby decision by a wealthy couple he personally recruited to get close to justice alito and his wife. the implication here is that justice alito himself or his wife offered the information of a couple that alito now denies. yes, that leak is problematic, but so is the shameless and shocking maneuver to buy supreme court justices, but all of this is reaffirming what we've known for quite some time. the supreme court has a massive

accountability issue. in light of these reports, senator sheldon whitehouse and senator hank johnson sent a letter to chief justice roberts demanding answers. they will be holding a meeting next week to investigate this conservative lobbying campaign which may very well have led to the leaks of two landmark rulings. joining us now is senator sheldon whitehouse. senator, it's so good to see you. thank you for being here tonight. we've been covering this extort repeatedly because i find it totally outrageous. you're calling for a more formal infrastruck tour to overseem the supreme court ethically. is that even possible? >> yeah, it is, and the court could do it itself, and if they don't, then chairman johnson and i have proposed a piece of

legislation that would bake in some of the essential ethics and recusal and transparency requirements that we need. this is kind of a triple whammy of the supreme court. the first is the leak on hobby lobby ahead of time to mr. shank. calorically knew in advance the outcome of that decision. second is the campaign behind it. $30 million spent to wine and dine and influence justices, which the court doesn't see to be a problem at all. and then the third piece is the court's apparent complete inability to exercise any authority to look at itself. that is probably the ultimate problem that they simply don't have a process or procedure for looking at their own ethics problems. >> i think it shocks most people when you tell them that supreme

court justices are not obligated to include expensive gifts or meals or vacations or to specify items of personal hospitality in their financial disclosures. how is that possible? >> well, it's obviously wrong and it's obviously completely different from the way the executive branch officials who have to report gifts and hospitality and legislative branch officials who have to report gifts and hosspy tilt and even lower court officials who have to report the same all behave, and it seems that the trick they pull at the supreme court is to say if they got a personal invitation, then it's personal hospitality. even if they have no personal relationship with the person who's doing the inviting. so we've discovered, for instance, that justice scalia took around 80 hunting trips paid for almost entirely by

others and didn't disclose any of them because when they set up the trips, they had the owner of the resort invite justice ska alito even if they never met. >> it's shocking they're supposed to be the around ters of justice and ethics and morality, so much that very little thought is given to their own justice, ethics, and morality. >> the thing the courts look at every day, was there independence, was it a fair process, was there an inquiry made, and what was the result. the court can't answer the basic decisions about themselves. it has no inquiry, it has no process, it produces no results, a tlnld is no independence. those are all things that are

fatal in the kind of matters the court ordinarily looks at and it won't apply those basic things to itself is incomprehensible. >> the house judiciary committee is holding a hearing next week on the scandal. one of the senate is supposed to go into republican hands. what do you expect? >> chairman durbin has already announced he intends to look at this at a full committee level. i'm going to defer to him until he decide as what to do. chairman johnson and i in subcommittees have been working in very collegial, very effective by-camera fashion and we're going to continue. >> we're watching. thank you as always for your effort and time. thanks, senator. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back. , senato. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back go for 10 runs! run a marathon. instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette.

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farther of the official gift that french president macron and his wife bought was a vinyl album of un-hom it une femme, "a man and a woman." it's a song the president and first lady heard on their first date. it's a signature tune. ♪♪

>> ah. i remember it. now, the bidens' gift to the macrons include some american vinyl, although, we don't have the reporting on what the albums were. for the record, this whole tradition of world leaders trading vinyl is something we can all really get behind and not just because it's generally awesome, but because it serves the goal of diplomacy a whole lot better than, say, weirdly endless and subtly hostile handshakes that turn into totally awkward three-way handshakes that sorts of devolve into nothingness. no one needs to do that again ever, ever. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next.