i guess we have. [both] finch! let's go! oh yeah! it's not the same. what could you do to solve the problem? we could get xfinity? that's actually super adult of you to suggest. i can't wait to squad up. i love it when you talk nerdy to me. guy, guys, guys, we're still in session. and i don't know what the heck you're talking about.

hi, there. everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. you hear that? that is the sound of spaghetti hitting the wall at mar-a-lago, as special counsel jack smith and the justice department end the week with a pileup of legal victories and developments sure to strengthen their ongoing criminal investigations into one donald trump. arguably the biggest of their wins in court as we reported on this program yesterday, a panel of federal appeals court judges ruled that trump is no different from any other american who has been the target of a search warrant. that panel put an end to the outside review of the documents seized from mar-a-lago. here's what "the washington post" reports about the impact of that decision. quote, thursday's unanimous ruling, which trump may appeal to the supreme court means criminal investigators can again access the unclassified documents that were recovered in the search. the justice department has said those materials may be important in their probe of the possible

mishandling of classified documents, obstruction and destruction of government property at plarg. in addition to potentially slowing down the investigation, the special master review provided trump's lawyers with a public platform to make their arguments about why they believe the mar-a-lago search was unfair. arguments that have been rejected over and over and now over again by the courts and barring an appeal by team trump to the u.s. supreme court, that public platform for the ex-president is now gone, giving a major boost for an investigation that has been steadily moving forward despite this special master review process. "the new york times" reports this, quote, in recent weeks, several witnesses connected to the investigation have appeared in front of a grand jury in federal district court in washington. on thursday, that included three close aides to trump, according to two people familiar with the matter. those aides were dan scavino jr., mr. trump's former social media guru, william russell, and

william b. harrison, who worked for trump when he was in the white house. there's also major news in the other investigation now in the hands of special counsel jack smith, that's the justice department's january 6th probe. a d.c. federal judge appears to have swung the door wide open for testimony that could be potentially devastating for trump. abc news is reporting that former white house counsel pat cipollone and his deputy testified before a grand jury today. from that reporting, quote, their appearances come as a result of a secret court battle between former president trump and the department of justice, sources said. trump's lawyers had argued that testimony by his former top white house aides was protected by privilege, but the judge ordered against trump's team and ordered the two men to appear. cipollone and philbin appeared before the grand jury in december, but declined to answer some questions until the privilege matter was resolved. brand-new momentum for the justice department in their twin

investigations into the disgraced ex-president is where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. jackie alemany is here, "washington post" congressional investigations reporter, also joining us, alan wiseman, senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation, and former cia director, john brennan is here. they're all msnbc contributors. director brennan, i start with you. the legal process is something that we've all -- people outside of the legal system have become familiar with. just by virtue of the nature of trump's presidency. and now his sort of former presidency. and one thing is always true. it takes a lot longer for the process to catch up with his pace and pattern of criminality and misconduct. but it seems that that catches up is very much what is underway this week.

your reaction? >> well, nicole, i think it's long overdue that the department of justice and the fbi be able to pursue every investigative lead to determine accountability for what clearly was, i think, criminal behavior that led to these documents finding their way to mar-a-lago. but also, i think it's critically important, in order to be able to determine exactly what of the intelligence community's sources and methods have been put at risk because of that careless disregard because of the classification of these documents. so i was very relieved to hear that the decision was made by the appeals court that the special master was really, it was an inappropriate determination on the part of the lower judge. and so moving forward with this now, i think we'll be able to address both the accountability, as well as trying to understand exactly what the compromise might have been. but one thing i need to point out, nicole, is that there has been grievous damage done already as a result of these documents finding their way to mar-a-lago. the message it sends to human

sources around the globe who worked very closely with the u.s. intelligence community is that they have to wonder whether or not the information that they provide is going to be protected the way it should be. as well as to all of those intelligence and security sources around the globe that share their information with us. i'm very glad the investigation will be able to move forward. but clearly, what mr. trump did has already caused significant damage to u.s. national security. >> i want to follow up with you on that, director brennan. i was filling in for brian williams in the 111th hour in january of 2017 when hayden said the same thing about the president's behavior, and he was likening the intelligence community to nazis. when you look at the time he had to damage the intelligence product and the tight-knit intelligence community, the five eyes group or really anyone that

shares intelligence with us, do you think we'll ever have an accurate assessment of the dak that he did? >> i don't think we'll ever have a complete assessment of the damage, but as time goes on, we'll have a better sense of it. not only did he disparage the intelligence community, the professionals and the profession itself, which was very dispiriting in terms of the moral of these officers throughout the intelligence community, but also, he didn't really care about intelligence. and one thing intelligence professionals want to know is that what they do matters. the sacrifices that they make matters. the intelligence that they collect really makes a contribution to our national security. not only did he do things that were very undermining of the intelligence community processes, but also i think he disregarded the intelligence input that was provided to him, in terms of what he was not sort of interested in finding out. >> you know, andrew weismann,

this isn't exactly the conversation that i planned, but probably a more important one. i guess what i want to ask you is, you know, it fell to you to investigate some specific questions about trump and his former campaign head, paul manafort and his ties to konstantin kilimnik and all sorts of questions of criminality. manafort was guilty of them. he eventually received a pardon from trump. was on this bigger question of reckless disregard for state secrets, is that something that a prosecution could introduce to counter all of what i'm sure will be defenses about a president's absolute right to declassify whatever he wants? >> it could be relevant to a criminal case, but i don't think it's at all necessary. and i would imagine that there's a lot of interest when you're a criminal prosecutor in keeping a case narrow and focused to the

elements of the crime. and especially if you're talking about the mar-a-lago documents case, which is so clean and neat, i think you probably wouldn't want those kinds of distractions, but that is not to say, i don't disagree with anything at all that director brennan is saying and i couldn't -- i just couldn't agree more with the idea that there is damage now being done to our national security interests by the conduct of the former president, both when he was office, but what he has done since he's been out of office. and essentially, what has happened the last two days is a real step forward to what john correctly says is long overdue accountability. so when you have the information

now that pat cipollone and pat philbin have gone into the grand jury, and i think it's particularly interesting that dan scavino is now going to be in the grand jury after he committed contempt of the january 6th committee, i think those are all really important developments, and it tells you the power of the grand jury, and once again, the power of judges in holding trump to the same standard as anyone else. you now see it with the chief justice, a chief judge of the d.c. court, and you saw it in the 11th circuit yesterday. >> let me focus on that with you then, andrew wiseman, strength of the mar-a-lago documents case. you mentioned a couple of the witnesses who have been been before the grand jury on that. here's our compilation. christina bob, she's the trump attorney that seems to have lied to the federal government about the documents that were there. kash patel, he was designated by trump to deal, we understand him

to have some limited hunt in this investigation. walt nalta, that's trump's personal aide at mar-a-lago. he was seen on those surveillance tapes moving boxes. there have been some reports that he was less than truthful with investigators. pat cipollone, who a judge cleared to go in and answer questions. his deputy, patrick philbin, molly michael, trump's executive assistant, who went with him to mar-a-lago, dan scavino, as you just mentioned. william russell, another white house aide, and william harrison, another white house aide. they might have been involved in things like moving and packing, but we don't know that at this point. andrew wiseman, it seems like with that group of individual, you will absolutely get to the bottom of what happened with the classified documents taken to mar-a-lago. >> sure. let me just focus on the three -- first, pat cipollone and pat philbin. they were counsel at the white

house. they were also designated by the former president as being his representatives to the national archives. i strongly suspect that they would be willing to answer any of their communications directly with donald trump or either as president or as the former president and they will be able to testify about those conversations. what did they tell them about those documents, whether there were presidential records and whether they needed to be returned. that could be extremely damning testimony. because those are very responsible owners. it's highly unlikely that they told them anything other than what the law is. that could be an incredibly important development, where he hears from the people that he himself designated to represent him in connection with the archives, saying what the law is

and where those documents should be. that would go a long way to proving the critical element in a criminal case, which is the intent of the defendant, which has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. and dan scavino, by all accounts had enormous access to what donald trump knew and was reporting out right after the election and will be able to speak to donald trump's state of mind in terms of whether he lost the election and whether he was tweeting out or on truth social, communicating facts that were not true and that he knew to be untrue. >> i want to -- with some of these witnesses ending up in the net of doj, we can look at the evidence that they provided to the january 6th select committee, but jackie, with cipollone, that's a little complicated. let me show you all the places

he pumped the brakes, if nothing else to remind people of the line of questioning that the committee pursued. >> you didn't go to the meeting in the oval office with the president and the vice president. do you remember why you didn't personally attend? >> i did walk to that meeting and i did go into the oval office with the idea of attending that meeting and i ultimately did not attend that meeting. >> why not? >> the reasons for that are privileged. >> pat, you said that you expressed your opinion forcefully. could you tell us exactly how you did that? >> i can't -- i'm -- i don't have,, you know -- i have to -- on the privilege issue, i can't talk about conversations with the president. >> and what about the president? did he indicate whether he thought the president was doing what needed to be done to protect the vice president? >> that question -- >> i'm being instructed -- i

don't -- i can't think of anybody, you know, on that day, who didn't want people to get out of the capitol once the, you know, particularly once the violence started, no. i mea -- >> what about the president? >> yeah? >> she said the staff, to i answered -- >> no, i said in the white house. >> oh, i'm sorry. i apologize, i thought you said who else on the staff. um -- [ inaudible ] >> i can't reveal communications, but obviously, i think -- yeah.

>> so, jackie, what's interesting is if you don't know, before you invoke privilege, you say i don't know, right? that's the answer for the record. but if you know and sharing would violate the tenants of executive privilege, you invoke it. so we know among other things that patrick philbin knows the answer to what was going on in this meeting, where the conspiracy is hatched. we know that he knows the answer and he can tell us what he told the president not to do or to do. we know that he knows why the president didn't want to stop violence with a mission statement of hanging mike pence. we know he knows the answer, because before offering it, he didn't say, "i don't know," he said, i invoke privilege. and we know he knows the answer as to whether or not trump ever wanted anyone to leave the capitol. we know that from a whole a lot of different pieces of evidence, mostly found in mark meadows'

text messages. but once the flood gate opens and the things that he didn't not know -- he knew the answer to all of those questions, he invoked privilege. now doj knows the answers to all of those questions. >> that's exactly right, nicole. i mean you reminding us what that testimony -- i'm sure that prosecutors reviewed it as well before they got into the room with cipollone. there were lots of other parts of testimony that we heard from other parts of trump's world inside the white house about things that they were testifying that cipollone knew as well. call cassidy hutchison, saying that pat cipollone told her, we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we move from the ellipse to the capitol. he, according to cassidy hutchinson, was adamant against moving them. he had already expressed feelings about obstructing

justice and obstructing the electoral count, that it would live look like trump was obstructing justice and obstructing the electoral count if they did actually move to the capitol from the ellipse and incited a riot or encouraged a riot on capitol hill. so there are tons of threads that were revealed from the january 6th public hearings that the department of justice is most likely following up on. and probably, much more. because as we've seen today, the grand jury does hold a bit more sway and power in terms of compelling people to appear before them. dan scavino has not spoken in a year and a half. he was almost held in contempt before the department of justice dismissed that contempt charge from congress. he appeared before them. these people were flies on the wall for nearly every single one of these moments and decisions

that the former president made. and as we reported extensively, pat cipollone in particular was one of the lone fire walls and voices of reason advocating against a lot of what was going on, in terms of the efforts to overturn the results of the election. >> and jackie, a lot of what we know, we know from your reporting on this sordid chapter. i want to read what you've reported, because cipollone probably changes, at least with the government knows, on these questions. you report this. it's not precisely clear who packed up the classified materials at mar-a-lago or how they got there in the first place. trump was very secretive about the packing of boxes that were retrieved from mar-a-lago last month and did not let other aides, including some of his most senior advisers look at them. "the new york times" has also reported on trump's hands-on approach to packing the documents and we know from doj court filings and subsequent reportings in the "new york post" that he has been involved in a very hands-on way with the

obstructing of the doj and fbi every step of the way. how much exposure does he have, with everybody, literally, i read from the list and andrew pointed out who the money witnesses are, the doj now has the abs to all the previously unknown questions. >> yeah. well, look, i'm not a lawyer and these federal prosecutors have been extremely opaque for a reason. but we have gotten the sense that the people who were working around trump are not the targets of the department of justice's investigatory efforts. and that they really just want answers from these people to have a full and accurate sketch of what exactly happened. and based on our reporting, pat cipollone was actually one of the lawyers who really wanted

nothing to do with these documents anymore, once it got past a certain point. after he was cc'd on a handful of e-mails between him and the national archives on the initial efforts made by the archives to retrieve some of these boxes that the ahr kooifs knew, based on explicit krpz that they had with trump's lawyers were at mar-a-lago and that they needed those backs. they listed the specific items that were missing. a letter from kim jong-un, a map of a hurricane that trump famously displayed and drew on with a sharpie. there were items that they were tracking that pat cipollone was in the loop on, and eventually, sort of extricated himself from this situation, as did a handful of other lawyers on trump teams because of the direction that people knew this was going in as the former president grew more and more pugilistic about

rebuffing these efforts. >> we're reminding listening to jackie recount what he took which was for the nation and the world many of the low lights, kim jong-un, love affair, trying to falsify the path of a deadly hurricane, as two examples, were for trump trophies. >> yeah, they were. and some of those items might have been benign, but what i'm worried about are those top-secret documents that are critically important to our national security. and he seemed to treat all of these items with that callous disregard, believing that he had the ability and was entitled to keep them in whatever manner he wanted. and so again, i think this just underscores just how irresponsible and reckless he was throughout his presidency.

this has come to light, but just imagine some of the stories that some of those advisers could tell should they want to about what he actually did with this nation's secrets. >> do you think we'll ever find out? >> i don't think we'll find out everything, but i'm hoping that there's going to be accountability for what i do believe is criminal responsibility on donald trump's part. and i'm still shocked that today, there's any american that supports him or has even the slightest bit of respect for him. but if he is going to be indicted and going to be convicted, i think it will make it much more difficult for a lot of these republicans in congress, these moral cowards, who continue to not talk about him in real terms, in terms of what he has done to this country. so, again, if we can -- if the courts are going to find him guilty of this criminal behavior, i think it will block his path to the presidency once again. but i think it will clearly expose just how irresponsible, reckless he was when he was at

the white house. >> jackie alemany, andrew weismann, john brennan, thank you so much for starting us off on a day like today. when we come back, four days until the last election until 2022, and former president barack obama were back on the stump for raphael warnock, making a compelling case that voters deserve a senator that they can be proud of. we'll show you what the former president had to say. plus, president biden asking the democratic party to strip iowa of its first in the nation primary status in favor of more diverse states, giving voice to black voters who helped propel him into office the last time around. we'll look at that strategy. and later in the program, a tidal wave of hate and anti-semitism growing in this country, thanks in part to one of the gop's favorite celebrities. and how that relationship may now be backfiring with the party already catching heat for its coddling and encouraging of

extremists. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: just stop. go for a run. go for 10 runs! run a marathon. instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette.

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and ensure complete with thirty grams of protein. i love this state and i believe in my bones, i believe in my soul that georgians, republicans and democrats, if we're honest, i believe many my soul that georgia knows that georgia is better than herschel

walker. >> that's senator raphael warnock, a man on a mission, with just four days now separating us and him for the runoff election with herschel walker in georgia. here's where things stand. the latest polling from cnn shows warnock up by four. it happens to be within that survey's margin of error, though. the test is encouraging from an enthusiasm standpoint for days, we've seen images of long lines as georgians have voted early in droves. when it comes to enthusiasm as a more fsh democrats, few get the job done quite like president obama. he was with warnock in atlanta last night with that quintessential obama sense of humor. >> since the last time i was here, mr. walker has been talking about issues that are of great importance to the people of georgia. like whether it's better to be a

vampire or a werewolf? this is a debate that i must confess i once had myself. when i was 7. in case you're wondering, by the way, mr. walker decided that he wanted to be a werewolf. which is great! as far as i'm concerned, he can be anything he wants to be. except for a united states senator! >> that's perfect for everyone except the 7-year-old. that's host of al sharpton, president of the national action network, basel smikle is also here. rev, president obama keeps getting better at this and this takedown of herschel walker with his own words was just, it was

perfection. >> it was definitely perfection. there's no better way to take someone down than to take them down with their own words it was second inflected. and i think the fact that we're seeing such wrechd turnout. and everyone i'm talking to on the ground says it has attend itself over a matter of days. the national action network has an atlanta office and an augusta chapter and i'm hearing it all over the states. and these are in areas that are mostly democratic leaning. it clearly looks as though reverend senator warnock was in a position of being able to be re-elected, at least that's the forecast at this point. >> let me play a little more of president obama from last night.

>> election deniers got beat. that's the good news. it turns out that most americans prefer leaders who want to bring people together, to solve real problems. it's good to know that folks would prefer normal to loony toons. i'm here to tell you that we can't let up. i'm here to tell you that we can't tune out, we can't be complacent. we have to run through the tape. and that means all of us doing our part to make sure that raphael warnock goes back to being the united states senator from the great state of georgia. >> now, senator raphael warnock should be re-elected, because he's been a superb senator.

and herschel walker is, i'll use the president's word, loony. this is a really cynical move and a cynical choice. >> listen, i read this somewhere. nobody throws political shade better than barack obama. and that speech was fantastic. in the words that you showed, talking about complacency is really critical. these early reports about black voter turnout in state like georgia, wisconsin, north carolina, where the african-americans ran statewide were lower than expected. that's problematic. so his points about complacency and not letting up are critical. and it's not just to make sure that biden has a democratic majority that excludes sinema and manchin so he can get more done. it's about 2024, when more democrats running for the senate might be in more peril, based on those seats and whatever the dynamics are of that year. this is a very, very critical election. i just have to say, brother

warnock is part of my fraternity incorporated. our founder day is december 4th on sunday. i know the brothers are really rallying for him there and across the country. we take this seriously, the country should take this seriously. as you said, this is a senator who is thoughtful, he's smart, in comparison to herschel walker, just why? just why? >> look, rev, he has not run a campaign -- i mean, he served them the michelle obama version, right? when they go low, we go high. he has not been nasty, and there's plenty of ford, should he have chosen to run on all of herschel walker's publicly known liabilities and vulnerabilities in a classic sense. it's not clear in the republican party that there are vulnerabilities anymore, simply falling in line is what the senate republicans seem to want out of their candidates. but in any traditional sense, there's a whole lot you could say and do with herschel walker

and senator warnock really hasn't. the last ad was brilliant. he showed herschel walker and showed voters just reacting like, oh, my god, who is this guy? this is a campaign and a candidate in this instance who was run a sort of very high-rode campaign. is that helping? is he seeing the payout in terms of the early vote numbers? >> well, why get in herschel's way? i mean, there's nobody that could expose herschel better than herschel. so i think that he was right to do that. you know. i often quote, when i was coming up in the civil rights movement, there was a mentor i had who said, al, if you see a man on the edge of a cliff about to jump off, back up, give him room. don't make the appearances of a suicide appear like a homicide, like you pushed him.

in this case, let him go by himself. you can't say that, one, i play dirty politics. you can't say, i use obviously scandals. herschel did it to himself. and you've got to question why would trump and the georgia republicans even go with this guy. and i've known senator warnock from when he was in new york many years ago. i talked to him the other day and told him that i remember that he wrote in his book that the first time that he ever engaged in civil disobedience with civil rights, he went to jail and a number of sit-ins in the police killing in new york when he was a seminary student. and he has always been that high guy. he would say, i'm not int slogans, but i will make a witness. >> a lot of what we've covered about georgia was their voter

restrictions. they took something that they bet their careers as republicans on that there had been no fraud in the georgia election in 2020. we have heard from subsequent tests that she was afraid from her husband's life. he went to war with donald trump over vowing that the election results in georgia were legitimate and fair and accurate. all the same, they passed an election integrity law that made it more difficult for people to vote. how are democrats managing that? >> well, interestingly enough, a lot of it started with stacey abrams. she had this program across the country to fight voter intimidation and suppression across the country. the party has been doing this, lawyers never state have been doing this. the problem is that, you know, republicans, some republicans, have had for decades what we call a litigate and legislate strategy. even if democrats or social justice warriors take two steps,

there's always this other sort of we've pushing them back four steps. through the courts, through additional pieces of legislation. so it's not so much that democrats are playing catch up, but it is a constant, constant battle that needs funding. and that's the -- it needs funding and needs representation in statehouses. it's a multi-tiered sort of, not just coalition, but project moving forward. it's difficult to manage, but it is being done. >> to communicate with voters. >> absolutely. >> the rev and basel, stick around. up next for us, president joe biden is proposing a big shake up to his party's primary calendar, evaluating the state that changed everything for candidate joe biden. we'll tell you about it, next. n. we'll tell you about it, next. for me. i may have trouble getting around, but i want to live in my home where i'm comfortable and my friends are nearby. i can do it with the help of a barber, personal shopper and exercise buddy. someone who can help me live right at home.

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create your own ultimate feast is here. choose 4 of 10, like new cheddar bay shrimp. welcome to fun dining. . >> the person that has woken the south carolina primary has gone on to win, with one exception, the general election. so if you look at that state, it is the best, i would say to my friends up in new hampshire as well as iowa, let's do what's best for the party. let's do what we can to deliver the best candidate. >> that's jim clyburn on president biden's proposed change to the order of those ever-important democratic presidential primaries. it would put clyburn's home state of south carolina first, with new hampshire and nevada one week later, followed by georgia and michigan.

the change in the order of primaries was one of many changes president biden urged the the dnc to implement in a letter sent late yesterday, including eliminating caucuses. moves he writes to help the democratic party to better reflect the party. you cannot be the democratic nominee and win a general election unless you have overwhelming support from voter of color. and that includes black, brown, and asian american and pacific islanders voters. the rules change got the backing of a key dnc panel. if it is successful, the 2024 election will mark the first time in more than 50 years that iowa did not come first. we're back with the rev and basel. can we do this today? it seems like, put the politics aside for president joe biden, this seems like the right thing

to do and long overdue, rev. >> it's absolutely the right thing to do. and many of us have been saying this for a while. and it's not just joe biden doing something for the black community, because he said he had our back. it is just good politics. if you cannot win in south carolina, then how you can you in in any way appeal to a broad section of americans across racial and ethnic lines to win in the november election? so i think it is good politics and i remember 2004 when i ran for president. you go through iowa and new hampshire, and it's almost totally excluding people of color. then in south carolina, it was almost like, you were in that whole different kind of political atmosphere. i applaud what the president did. i think he is doing what is

right, certainly as a civil right s activist, i want to see the inclusion, but on pure politics, it makes political since. and i think the fact that clyburn has a lot of influence and jamie harrison's share of the party is from south carolina, they could get this over the goal line. >> i mean, basel, we haven't had an election with twitter being quite the hellscape it is right now. if i were a democratic operative, i wouldn't want my nominee to get battered in the whitest state in the west before standing before an electorate that looks like america. the politics of subjecting what may be your most electable general election candidate to iowa and new hampshire first seem insane. and to rev's point, primaries work in hardening, strengthening, making candidates better. so for you to have to go to south carolina, where you'll get

white southern votes, but also be in front of black voters, nevada, latino voices, union members, michigan, where you have white blue collar working class workers in the rust belt. so your regional diversity, your ethnic racial diversity not only represents where the party is going, but where the country is going right now. why not have a candidate that is battle tested in those regions of the country and across those different demographics. that is important. it may look punitive because of what happened in the last cycle. >> it took the caucuses -- >> still counting. >> the counting and the all the problems, they forgot half of them, but it took days for us to get a result. >> which really messes things up in a primary. >> and because of the complexity of the caucuses, there are very few people who know what's going

on and how to actually fix it. and they're all very good and talented people that work in that party, so it could look punitive. it's not. i don't think it is. it could look like he's rewarding south carolina for putting them over -- putting them over the top thanks to jim clyburn and those black voters there. but all of those things could be true, but what is more true is that it is representative of where we're going as a country. why not have the political process mirror that. >> rev, do you think this will happen? do you see any road bumps ahead? >> i think it will happen. i think what when you look at the fact that if democratic party, as it is now, is going to succeed in 2024, it is going to have to energize and show a broad section of americans and energize the democratic base across all lines early, let's

remember now, we did not see the red wave that we were told would happen these midterm elections, but we did see the surge we needed also in some areas of black voters and others. so we should not take for granted that just because we ducked the tsunami is all the well. we need to restructure and this is fundamental restructuring and it could lead to energizing and early participation. and i agree that if you don't have a candidate that can get through south carolina and nevada and michigan, you don't have a candidate that can get through november, whether you're facing trump or desantis or anyone else. >> this is fascinating. the reverend al sharpton and basel smikle, thank you very much for spending time with us. a quick break for us, but a jury will now decide if ex-president donald trump's family business is guilty of committing decades-long tax fraud schemes. how the closing arguments in that trial today went. we'll check in with our friend

tom winter at the courthouse. don't go anywhere. r friend tom winter at the courthouse don't go anywhere. if your business kept on employees through the pandemic, innovation refunds could qualify it for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee, even if you got ppp. and all it takes is eight minutes to find out. then we'll work with you to fill out your forms and submit the application. that easy. innovation refunds has helped businesses like yours claim over $1 billion in payroll tax refunds. but it's only available for a limited time. go to innovationrefunds.com to learn more. ♪♪

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lawyers for the trump org tried to hold up proceedings r if a second straight day, including a last-minute attempt to have a mistrial declared, drawing the ire of the judge. let's bring in nbc news investigations correspondent who was there for all of it, my colleague, tom winter. take us inside the courtroom. >> reporter: right, nicole, so as we telegraphed yesterday, prosecutors got into this idea of kind of grossing up. effectively, the trump organization would have had to almost double the salary paid to its top executives, we're talking about allen weisselberg, matthew calamari and some of the others in order to compensate them if they were to have to pay taxes on the benefits they received. we're talking luxury mercedes cars, apartment in the case of allen weisselberg, even tuition for weisselberg's grandchildren. we've known about this for some time, but they really tried to focus and target their argument in presenting a chart for the jurors and kind of hypothetical numbers just how much of a benefit this was, not only to

allen weisselberg but to the trump organization in money they didn't have to pay in both salary as well as in taxes, payroll taxes tied to medicare, so they tried today to really connect the dots on some of the central elements of the crime that they say the jury is going to have to consider once they get in that room and begin deliberations and start kind of going through the elements of the crime, something we briefly touched on yesterday, now coming into much clearer focus, saying, was there some benefit to the trump organization? and if so, does it meet the other element of the crime, that one of these people had to be in a high managerial position, and we're talking about the cfo, the chief operating officer. those, by definition, the prosecution says, meet the criteria of a high managerial position. they noted donald trump is not sitting with the defense attorneys. he's not on trial here. so, it doesn't have to go up to that level, but something that i think you mentioned and were alluding to, this idea, according to prosecutors, that

even if donald trump wasn't necessarily involved in this scheme day-to-day, he hasn't been charged with any illegality in this case, he did kind of sanction this environment. the thing that you were referring to is this idea of docking salary in that he okayed that. they said, how could he possibly not know that this was going on, docking the salary back so that effectively it paid back the benefit for one of the trump executives? they tried to make that connection a little bit. the judge kind of put the prosecution on a short leash because, as he said, and as the defense attorneys talked about, again, donald trump not specifically on trial here. they did move for that mistrial late in the day, saying that they thought the mention of trump by the prosecutors was in some way creating a bias for the jury. the judge says, look, defense, you brought this up in your closing arguments, so it's only fair for the prosecution to talk about it. and that's kind of how that wrapped up. the judge said, look, it's not even on my mind that we're going to have a mistrial here. the jury will be back to hear

instructions on monday. >> and then, tom, what are the likely -- not likely outcomes, but give us the outcomes. if the trump organization is found guilty of fraud, what happens? >> reporter: right, so, there's a lot of unusual factors in this trial. the least of which is that a company, everybody acknowledged it today, we're not talking about a person that's on trial here, we're talking about a company. there's nobody that's going to be going to jail. they're not going to pull trump's buildings out of the ground. but what they are going to do, potentially, if convicted, is hit them with some fines up to $1.6 million or just shy of $1.6 million, i should say, is the maximum amount of fines that can be sentenced here by the judge if found guilty. there are some folks that believe in a little bit of a legal theory that if convicted as a criminal organization, that might impact the trump organization when it comes to financing, but as some of our own colleagues have reported on, the trump organization really hasn't been relying on

traditional banks the last couple of years. they have been relying more on private investors that extend loans. so, it's really not quite clear on the company side that's not specific to the former president, but on the company side, just what type of damage this will do. i think it's something that will bear out over time, should there be any additional kind of collateral penalties that the company could face. >> tom winter, our eyes and ears inside that courtroom. thank you so much for your reporting on this and for spending time with us. up next for us, the rise in extremism in today's republican party, another hour of news after a quick break. don't go anywhere. er hour of ne aftea r quick break. don't go anywhere.

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♪♪ and by the way, in all fairness, kanye west gets it. he got it. he gets it. kanye's been a friend of mine for a long time. >> i'm standing in that spot. i love this guy right here. let me give this guy a hug right here. i love this guy right here. come here. >> that's really nice. and that's from the heart. i didn't want to put you in that position. but that's from the heart. special guy. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. yes, we are going there. it was a bet the ex-president and his entire party took gladly, that kanye west, who now goes by ye, was a political asset, that it was a good thing to have him in their corner, sitting at the resolute desk, being hugged in front of the entire full white house press corps. the gop overlooked ye's

controversies and his questionable behavior, and as phillip bump in the "washington post" writes, all of that could be ignored and was. ye was a member of the elite who agreed with the maga agenda. ye was a black member of the elite who said the things about the left that any trump ally in good standing would say. so, the right held him tight, even as his endless repositioning threatened to see him slip their grasp. but then yesterday happened. ye appeared on the loathsome conspiracy theorist alex jones show and spouted vile and heinous comments. he explicitly praised hitler and the nazis. we're not going to play them here, but we do want to explain why we're covering them at all. those disgusting words were coming from a man that the whole one of our two major political parties in america has openly and publicly embraced. they were proud and excited and

happy and boastful to have kanye west as one of them in their ranks. they were so proud that on october 6th, the twitter account of the house judiciary republicans, a congressional committee, funded by taxpayers, posted three names. "kanye. elon. trump." a demonstration of their special affection for those three men. a claiming of those three men as the republican party's best and brightest. that tweet was finally deleted yesterday following ye's heinous and disastrous appearance on alex jones's show. what's so stunning, though, about deleting that tweet yesterday is not that it happened but that it took so long to happen. there were numerous instances of hate and extremism touted by, frankly, each one of those three men, celebrated in the house

judiciary committee's tweet, over the last two months. and yet, it stayed up day after day after day, representing, again, the house judiciary committee, a congressional committee funded entirely by u.s. taxpayers. now, ye's comments yesterday, they weren't an outlier. they didn't come out of nowhere. it was just a natural extension in a series of his anti-semitic rants, remarks so bad that in late october, adidas, balenciaga and his own talent agency severed their relationships with ye. but not the house judiciary committee. gop's house judiciary members kept that tweet up until yesterday. elon musk retweeted and then deleted a conspiracy theory about the violent attack on speaker pelosi's husband, and the house judiciary tweet, kanye, elon, trump, stayed up.

elon musk restored the twitter accounts of extremists who had been removed and made it much easier to spread disinformation on that platform, and yet, that tweet stayed up. donald trump dined with ye, an outspoken white nationalist white supremacist racist nick fuentes last week and the house judiciary committee tweet stayed up. none of the events and fannings of extremism at a moment that our country is under a threat, domestic violent extremism threat is higher than ever, none of those were too much for the house judiciary republican committee until yesterday. to encapsulate the state of our country right now, the current president of the united states, president joe biden, felt he needed to send out this tweet earlier today. "i just want to make a few things clear. the holocaust happened. hitler was a demonic figure, and

instead of giving it a platform, our political leaders should be calling out and rejecting anti-semitism wherever it hides." extremism in the gop is where we begin the hour with some of our most favorite experts and friends. former congressman and former advisor to the house january 6th select committee, denver riggleman joins us. also joining us, mary mccord, former top official in the justice department's national security division. clint watts is back, former consultant to the fbi counterterrorism division, now a distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy institute. and eddie glaude is here. he is the chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university. clinton, eddie, our msnbc contributors. denver, i saw your data. i mean, just take me through the real-world impact of kanye west's anti-semitism and hate. >> you know, it's interesting, what the network research institute to combat anti-semitism, we first identified when elon took over

twitter, he said there was a 500% increase in the n-word. what was interesting after kanye's interview, i don't know what you would call that yesterday, there was a 500% increase in the hashtag, hitler was right. some of the data is from twit. we saw things happen on 4 chan and some of the white supremacist threads that were pretty disturbing. two of the words that were most associated with kanye were fuhrer and ye dog. he's supplanted trump as the messiah figure. there's so many experts on this panel. i'm just going to get right into the data, because i'm sure they have some incredible insights and data themselves. what bothers me about this is that it seems like kanye was part of a jailbreak on to social media. we had all these influencers able to sort of reintroduce their ideas in a pretty big way. kanye had 32 million followers. we look at the words that are being used in the conspiracy

theory against jews right now and the fact that just the jews on some of these white supremacist sites incrincreased 300% and the old conspiracy theories made new. i have to say, as somebody who's a non-jew, and somebody who's looking at the data now and somebody who's been in this sort of counterterrorism field for decade, i don't know if i have ever seen anything like this. and i'm sure the other members of this panel will probably mirror some of that, but i think the scary thing for me is that we have a new type of tgp, tactical procedure, where instead of using buildings or globalists or new world order or using this, they're simply saying to hurt jews, to go after jews, so this type of anti-semitism is virulent, but it seems like a new targeting tactic and they're getting better at it, and more individuals are falling into this awful and insidious trap of anti-semitism, and we're seeing it everywhere.

>> mary mccord, we have and we've covered it here a new dhs bulletin warning of attacks targeting jewish communities and lgbtq communities. that is the newest warning to local law enforcement officials. but we also have this in "the new york times". hate speech's rise on twitter is unprecedented, researchers find. before elon musk bought twitter, slurs against black americans showed up on the social media service an average of 1,282 times a day. after the billionaire became twitter's owner, they jumped to 3,876 times a day. slurs against gay men appeared on twitter 2,506 times a day before musk took over. now they're at 3,964 times a day. anti-semitic posts referring to jews or judaism soared more than 61% in the two weeks after musk acquired the site. these findings from the center for countering digital hate, the

antidefamation league and other groups that study online platforms, provide the most comprehensive picture to date of how conversations on twitter have changed since musk completed his $44 billion deal for the company. is twitter a national security threat? >> well, you know, online radicalization, whether it's radicalization to violence that is promoted by foreign terrorist organizations like the islamic state or whether it's radicalization to extremist violence based on anti-semitism, anti-lgbtq, racist comments, we know, the statistics show it, the evidence show it, and our real-world examples show it, that this kind of online extremism leads to radicalization, recruitment, plotting, planning, and real-world violence. there are legion examples of -- particularly if we go back a few years to the rise of the islamic state and their prolific use of social media to recruit and

radicalize. we can draw direct links between online radicalization and incitement to commit certain types of attacks and those attacks actually being committed. here in the u.s., more recently, we can draw direct links between online radicalization, conspiracy theories, lies, hate-fueled invective that then translates into violence, threats, and intimidation against election workers, against lgbtq individuals, against black people, against jewish people, you know, against such a whole litany of people. so, these kind of things do present national security threats, because it's not just talk. that talk becomes action. and that action is not protected by the first amendment. it is violence. it is intimidation. it is threats. >> clint, i want to read the actual text of the dhs bulletin from november 30th, wednesday.

"lone offenders in small groups motivated by a range of ideological beliefs and/or personal grievances continue to pose a threat to the homeland. the enduring threat to faith-based communities, including the jewish community. in early november 2022, an individual in new jersey was arrested for sharing a manifesto online that threatened attacks on synagogues." just help us understand what the junctures are for law enforcement to the speech existing and something like what's in the bulletin here, an individual in new jersey arrested for threatening attacks on synagogue. is that it? there has to be a plot or a plan? >> that's right, nicole, there has to be something tangible to go off of. if it's just straight speech, then they get into the weird position in law enforcement of not being able to tie it to any sort of violent threat. you'll hear director wray oftentimes, when he testifies,

speak that once it reaches a threshold of violence, that's when the fbi would get in or start to do a preliminary inquiry or assessment in that investigation. i think the bigger problem is the trend that we consistently are seeing, which is away from moderation in the online space. with twitter's acquisition, what you're seeing is more speech being elevated. some people would argue that's great, but most of the people that are being replatformed or put back on the platform were removed for a reason, and it usually was around hate speech and extremism. those were probably the two main drivers for why people were removed or their accounts were removed. separately, whenever you have people with outsize voices who speak anti-semitism, who go on rants or hateful speech against lgbtq individuals, or what we've seen very consistently over the last four years, which is a rise in white supremacy, whenever more people start to speak that, more people start to say that, and when they start tying it to targets, i think that's a key part. when they tie it to targets or

violence, that's when the stochastic element of terrorism comes in, where the target is known, the perpetrator is not. very difficult for law enforcement to get out in front of it, because the signal could be nothing more than a tweet from an anonymous account. you don't even know who it is. or it could be a social media signature that comes so late, just before the attack, which we see in so many of these school shootings, workplace shootings, you know, at different malls, walmarts, whatever it might be, these shootings oftentimes there are indicators but the time between signal to the actual execution of violence is so short, almost impossible to stop those things in an advance way. so, these platforms will become the facilitator. i love mary's comments, because i remember specifically about nine years ago, there was a group called el shabab, they were very prolific on twitter. they were not policed, and they executed an attack at the shopping mall in kenya, and that really precipitated a lot of the controls that you saw over the last nine years. we're seeing those be unwound now, and i just don't know who

at twitter would even be there at this moment to actually police these kinds of things if you did see violent threats. >> just listening to you talk, clint, i think some of us have been on the air together when the digital footprints are first investigated and uncovered. i believe the tree of life, the alleged shooter in the tree of life synagogue shooting, as well as the el paso massacre at the walmart, we were all -- subgroup of us were all on the air together when those first became known. eddie, there's this conventional wisdom taking shape now that trump is getting politically weakened, so we're not in as much risk, but peter baker has some reporting that suggests that's not the case. he writes this. "trump's acceptance if not outright courtship of the militant right comes as the republican establishment blames him for the party's failure to do better during the november midterm elections. trump is doubling down on his extremist and cult leader profile, said ruth, a history professor at new york university. for someone of trump's

temperament, being humiliated by people turning away from him will only make him more desperate and more inclined to support and associate with the most extremist elements of society. there's no other option for him." i guess the point is, buckle up, buttercup. we keep thinking we've lived through the worst of trump. this is it. it is now. and it's pretty clear, if you take a peek at twitter or look at the people he's dining with, that this is exactly what this is. >> absolutely. and you know, we can look at the people he's dining with, or we could look at the house of representatives, and we can think about the expansion of the freedom caucus. so, we know that the election deniers lost at the level of governor and secretary of state, right? but when we look down ballot, and we see these gerrymandered district, the likes of marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz, they're ascending to power roles within the house of representatives. so even within the mainstream of the party, these forces are beginning to take root.

and in some ways, nicole, this is an extension of an electoral strategy. there was this idea that disaffected white voters, they outnumbered -- who didn't vote outnumbered the black and brown and women and liberal voters who weren't voting. so, how do you attract those disaffected white voters? well, you appeal to grievance. you appeal though to their fears, and that was at the heart of trump's success in the beginning, and it's heart of his strategy now. and so, buckle up, buttercup, it's going to get worse. >> denver, i saved this for you. i don't know if viewers of this program saw it. i caught it today. trump expressed solidarity with the january 6th rioters. he released a video somewhere, not clear to me where he's communicating, raising money for and expressing his support thursday night for a group called the patriot freedom project. they're supporting families of those being prosecuted by the government. people have been treated unconstitutionally, in my opinion, and very, very

unfairly. we're going to get to the bottom of it, he said in his video. it appeared to have been shot at his mar-a-lago estate in palm beach. he describes it as a weaponization of the department of justice. the danger of messages like that in your view, denver. >> hideous. it's almost like j-6 is its own party now. it's its own thought pattern on what j6 means, and i believe donald trump had to react to it. not only are we seeing what's going on with him sort of being supplanted, whether it's on twitter or other social media platforms, right, as the new chaos agent by kanye west and others. i think he's also reacting to the far-right criticisms that he is not supporting j-6 defendants enough that are in jail as political prisoners. now you have an individual former president of the united states who's advocating for individuals that sacked the capitol based on fantasy and

other conspiracy theories that we've already dealt with and are dealing with today, whether it's qanon, #saveourchildren, the great awakening, the great replacement, you have all these individuals that attacked based on fantasy, injured law enforcement. the former president advocating for those individuals, that they need to be protected, and i think it's all wrapped up in one thing, and i think what eddie just said is probably pretty prescient. when we say, buckle up, buttercup, we don't nowhere it's going to come from. this is an digital pogrom going after jews but also building this new sort of movement behind j-6 as a real success when it comes to identifying who the enemies are for the far right. again, things that have bothered me in counterterrorism for a while, again, if you have individuals actually using the word pogrom, and i know it's spiked through the roof on some of these far-right white supremacist websites.

first of all, i didn't know they knew the word. but it's amazing to me that this is happening right now. again, with everybody -- what everyone's said here, the digital world can become real, and i think mary was talking about that. it's very easy to manifest on top of violence. we have so many people using memes, cartoons, and jokes to further this message. and again, it's, for me, again, as a non-jew, i think it is our responsibility. i would say as a gentile, it's my responsibility to help out every jewish individual. i just cannot believe this is happening. >> you know, denver, you and mary and clint have all mentioned terrorism, but we don't have a fraction of the tools to fight domestic extremism that we have to fight foreign extremism. i mean, what is -- how do you start, denver? >> oh my goodness. that's a hell of a question. you know, i don't have those tools. if you're overseas, there's certain tools that i have based on a foreign threat that i don't

know if we have access to those. obviously, you know, in the private sector, the public sector certainly affects us to some of its tools, but when it comes to domestic terrorism itself and identifying it and prosecuting it, i'll leave that up to lawyers, but i don't know, right now, if the structures we have in government can keep up with this threat. i feel like social media or the digital threat is something that is so vast now with so many different echo chambers and ways to metastasize people, you know, with immediate injection of crazy electrons into their frontal lobes, i don't know how we do it. and i'm glad there's experts on this panel. i've done this a long time. we just can't go out, you know, and try to get people. it's so vast. and i think there has to be a combination of technology, private-public partnerships and the ability to attack this, to find the threat and define it, to fix that threat, to target that threat, and then to assess it. i think that's going to take a lot of work, not only in law enforcement but maybe, you know, at the d.o.d. level also.

>> denver riggleman, thank you for being part of this conversation. we have much more to come with clint, mary, and eddie on the other side on what we can do, what needs to be done to slow this unprecedented rise of hate speech and extremism in our country and in our politics. and later for us, a string of big victories by forces fighting against the big lie in arizona and pennsylvania. rogue counties were forced by law to certify their election results, while in georgia, republicans were defeated in their attempts to suppress the vote there. top democratic election attorney marc elias will be back. he'll be our guest on the ongoing fight to make sure every vote counts. plus, the story we had hoped to bring you yesterday, our good friend, rick stengel, and his terrific new podcast, it is called "mandela: the lost tapes," and it features never-before-heard audio of the iconic south african leader recorded while rick was helping him write his acclaimed biography, "long walk to

freedom." "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. 'm no spring chicken. ♪ ♪ i know what's right for me. ♪ ♪ i've got a plan to which i'm sticking. ♪ ♪ my doc wrote me the script. ♪ ♪ box came by mail. ♪ ♪ showed up on friday. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪

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we're back with mary, clint, and eddie. mary, a couple times on this show, you have mentioned terrorism prosecutions and the element of online radicalization, and there's a long line of sort of monitoring and seeing what is being plotted, either bomb-making, i mean, there's a long line of seeing what is happening online and using it. do we have any of those tools in terms of domestic online content? >> so, we have all the

traditional law enforcement tools that can be used in other types of investigations for violations of u.s. law here in the united states. these are different from the tools that we have when it comes to collecting foreign intelligence or monitoring the foreign terrorist threat, but there are tools available, and those can include things like law enforcement agents, fbi, and others taking on online undercover personas and engaging with a suspected -- people who are suspected of potentially acquiring weapons to commit an attack or planning an attack. they can engage with them online, and i'll give you an example that might be more familiar to a lot of people. you know, when it comes to child sexual exploitation, there are fbi agents who are in an online, undercover capacity engaging online with individuals who are looking for, oftentimes, young people to have sex with, and will seek to have meetings with

those young people, and the fbi will use sting operations to then go, you know, take down, make an arrest of somebody when he shows up, thinking he's going to be having sex with a child. that's a -- those are tools that are available when the right predicate is met. now, what clint raised earlier in the show was the fact that the fbi cannot -- no law enforcement should open any type of investigation based solely on first amendment-protected activity. so, the key there is, when does what you're seeing online, on sort of open source online posting, when does that start to cross that line into talk about violence, talk about committing any type of crime, any type of conspiracy? when does it cross that line so that then the fbi can deploy some of these tools? and you know, i think it's -- i think that's a challenge, because we want, in this country, we want to protect public safety. we want to protect national security. we want to stop any type of

plots of violence, but we also want to protect constitutional rights, first amendment rights, fourth amendment rights, et cetera. and so that's where i think sometimes we have a struggle. and it's another reason we need other tools than law enforcement tools. like we need to improve relationships between law enforcement and communities. bystanders, study after study, whether it's with respect to foreign terrorist, international terrorism or domestic extremist violence, have shown that people within the orbit of those who go on to commit really violent attacks often have seen something going wrong. that might be a family member, a social worker, a religious leader, et cetera, so we need to be able to draw on the whole of society for this. >> mary, my understanding is that with child pornography and content of that stripe, the tech companies are far better partners than with hate speech, like anti-semitism and racism. how do you get the tech companies to do for anti-semitic

speech and racist speech what they do for child porn and child-related crimes. >> i think some of them would say, well, child pornography by its nature is illegal, unlawful already. it's not protected by the first amendment. they would say that foreign terrorist organizations don't receive first amendment protection, although i will footnote here that the number of isis-related accounts on twitter has also skyrocketed since musk's takeover. but i think many social media companies would say, okay, these things, we can deal with because they're clearly not protected. but some of this other more extremist speech is protected, and even though we're not necessarily bound by the first amendment, because we're a private company, we want to respect sort of the principles and fundamental reasons for first amendment for the freedom of speech, and so they're very reluctant to take that kind of material down. now, i'll say another thing, though, my more pessimistic hat. some of that is also political. and i think that many of the

companies just don't want to get in hot water, politically, with one party. and so, they lean very far toward allowing content that really does have the potential to fuel real-world extremist violence. >> yeah. i mean, look, clint, i think mary's brought us to the natural sort of conclusion of a lot of these conversations. what they scream at the top of their lungs on right-wing media seems bat bleep crazy when i click over there, but it has the effect that mary described in some instances. >> yeah. the big challenge is -- especially for tech companies, you know, i work for one. i've worked with all of them in social media. it's, what is the line? they also have differing standards, particularly for hate speech, between europe, for example, and the united states. so, two different rule sets. so, imagine you're going through content in multiple municipalities, countries, counties, whatever it might be, trying to determine what's the

line of hate speech in each of these regulatory environments. very difficult to do, particularly at a fast pace. very difficult to do. i think the bigger challenge, though, is, you know, in the international terrorism space, denver was talking about it in the last segment, and you know, mary alluded to it before. if you have foreign terrorist organization designation, al qaeda, isis, al qaeda-inspired, isis-inspired, there are cases at the fbi and throughout all federal investigations that are open where tips and leads can be put into that. we cannot do that in the domestic space. there's no domestic terrorist designation process. >> that's incredible. i guess, eddie, what i come back to is, why? why is elon musk motivated to make twitter what mary just said, a place where more isis-related accounts are now existing? why is elon musk -- what is his incentive to have, what, 61% increase in anti-semitic content on twitter. a doubling of slurs against gay

men. what is the incentive for having racism show up more than twofold in the time he's taken it over? why? >> i mean, i don't know what's going on in elon musk's head or in his heart, but one could think about his commitments, that there very well may be the case, nicole, that he's committed to these things in his own way. there's an interesting relationship between soft racism and these loud racists, these extremists. it's a spectrum, of course. as i was listening to the conversation, i was trying to wrap my mind about it. think about how long it took us to pass anti-lynching legislation. talk about domestic terrorism. think about you and i and how many times have we been on air together and we have had to talk about buffalo, el paso, tree of life, where people are being radicalized in their basements. the epidemic of loneliness. there's a kind of cultural issue

here in the country that we are refusing to embrace who we are in light of some deep fissures and it's a matter of the heart, matter of the head. so, there are these issues that we can address at the level of law enforcement, but it's a kind of political culture that allows for this cesspool to continue to expand, and we have to begin to talk about that. and that is not just simply a political question, nicole. that's a moral issue. that's a moral concern. and we have been dealing with this moral concern since the moment we were formed, because wrapped around the legs of the table upon which the declaration of independence was signed, was the serpent of white supremacy, was the serpent of ugliness, and we have to grapple with that, it seems to me, if we're going to move forward. >> wow. what a place to stop. eddie glaude, mary mccord, clint watts, thank you so much for doing this, for having this conversation. i'm sure it wasn't the highlight of anybody's day when you saw it coming, but i'm grateful do all

of you. thank you so much. when we come back, fighting the big lie in a series of legal victories by our next guest to ensure people can vote and their votes will be counted. democratic election attorney marc elias is back after a quick break. don't go anywhere. elias is back break. don't go anywhere. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils,

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in 2022, even almost one month after the big bet on the big lie failed, our next guest is lawsuits and a court order still have to remind some local

republican officials that certifying election results the not an optional thing. marc elias also warns about his legal fight ahead of the georgia senate runoff race and what it took just last week to stop relentless efforts by republicans to block early voting on the saturday after thanksgiving. again, he argues, in violation of state law. elias writes this, "all told, 13 judges, the majority of whom were appointed by republican governors, rejected republicans' effort to restrict voting. the result was that 27 counties, both democratic and republican-controlled, held early voting on saturday, november 26th. over 70,000 voters took advantage of the opportunity, close to the 93,000 vote margin by which warnock won his 2021 runoff election." voting rights attorney and founder of the democracy docket, marc elias, is back. tell us what's going on in georgia, and then i want to get

to the broader landscape. >> sure. so, in georgia, there's a complicated, confusing statute that deals with what days you can or cannot have early voting in a runoff election. and in 2021, when there was a runoff election, that was interpreted to allow there to be saturday voting in counties on the saturday following christmas. christmas was a friday. saturday was the day afterwards, and there was early voting. this go-round, the republicans interpreted this and argued that it did not allow early voting on the saturday after thanksgiving. so, we went to court on behalf of the democratic party and the warnock campaign. we won at the trial court. they appealed. we won at the court of appeals. the rnc and the state party, republican state party, appealed to the state supreme court. we won again, 9-0, so all told, 13 judges agreed there could be

voting on november 26th. 70,000 voters took advantage of that. if you look at what's going on in georgia every day, you see long lines. imagine how much worse those lines would be if 70,000 georgians hadn't been able to take advantage of voting on that saturday. >> well, and some people wouldn't have been able to. it was a saturday. it was a holiday weekend that might end up being the only day they could vote. i want -- >> that's particularly true, by the way, and i think part of the motivation here, okay, the back story to all of this. i think part of the motivation is, now, who's a population that could only vote on that saturday? college students. college students. if they were home for thanksgiving, think about it. they get home on tuesday or wednesday, they go back on sunday. so, their only day to vote in-person would be on saturday, and because it's a shortened period, the vote-by-mail period is much, much tighter. that's the difference between being able to vote and not being able to vote. >> that's incredible. i want to, if we may, turn to

this arizona county that has it all. what is it? it has the bite your nose to spite your face, right? these were a lot of republican votes. it has the last vestige of arizona's election denialism, and it has the democracy fighters fighting for more republican votes to get counted. it is, to me, the story that tells the whole story of the two sides. explain. >> yeah, so, it's a very republican, ruby red county in arizona, and first, the republican-controlled board of supervisors wanted to hand count every ballot. we sued and prevented that. and then, they decided that they were all in on the big lie and on election denialism, and so they refused to certify the election results on monday, which was the day it was due. we sued on monday evening to ensure that those ballots were

counted and included in the certified totals. we won yesterday in court. the court ordered them to certify, and they did yesterday. but your point is correct, which is that, fundamentally, if those -- if they had not certified by next monday, the state of arizona would have certified the elections without the county, which would have meant democrats would have done better, and i've gotten a lot of people on twitter who have asked me, why are you fighting for these ballots when these are republican votes? the answer is, because we need to have certified elections in this country. we cannot have a system of elections where counties pick and choose whose votes they certify and whose they don't. >> and just real quick, what are you watching for? do you have any sort of flashing yellow lights ahead of georgia, or are you feeling pretty good about where things are? >> look, you always hope for the best but prepare for the worst. there is a straight line between the increase of vitrol that we

see to the voting booth. oftentimes, people being targeted to have their votes disqualified are black voters and other minorities. so, when there is racial hatred stirred up by the titular leader of the republican party, and you have people like mitch mcconnell and others staying silent, we worry about voter suppression and intimidation. so, we're going to be prepared, but hopefully we'll have a smooth election day. >> we'll continue to check in with you on all that. marc elias, thank you so much for joining us today. switching gears for us, our good friend, rick stengel, will be our guest with a preview of his brand-new podcast. it features never-before-released audio tapes of conversations he had with the one and only nelson mandela. that's next. don't go anywhere. sfloech that's next. don't go anywhere. sfloec

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his live. it provides an up-close look at the south african leader and icon, and it will only make you love him more. here's an excerpt. >> i had a revolver, which was unlicensed, and i just took it out and put it between the seats. >> that's nelson mandela. he's talking about the time he was driving down a hill with a gun and got stopped by the south african security police. >> and at one time, i thought i could open the door fast and roll down, but i didn't know how long, you know, this bank was and what was there. >> when that ford v8 pulled in front of his car outside of hawick falls, south africa, on august 5, 1962, mandela knew instantly what had happened. he was caught. >> rick stengel joins us now. so, what happens next in that story?

>> yes, it begins with a bang, nicole. he had just come back from his first trip to the rest of africa. he was given that gun by hailei solasi and he was driving from durbin to johannesburg. he had just formed the spirit of the nation, which is the armed military wing of the anc, and he was pulled over by south african security police who were tipped off by the cia, by an undercover cia officer who was working in the american consul in durbin. and they took him back to johannesburg. he started a series of trials. he didn't come come out you the prison for another 27 tapes bu in your library? >> yeah, i wish i could say that. i sort of had forgotten about them. when i worked with him on his

autobiography we made the 60 or 70 hours of tapes and as you know, when we're working on a book, the first thing i had was them transcribed and i worked from those transcriptions. so, i literally had never heard them before. i heard him when i was in the room. which was this extraordinary privilege. but then suddenly 30 years later, listening to my much younger self talking to him and listening to him who i love from up close, as per your introduction. it was really a powerful experience. >> what was emotional or if i may, what was more emotional listening to it the second time on tape for you? >> you know, it is emotional hearing your older self. he's so important to my life. i mean he changed the lives of millions of people. but he changed my life in particular. i met my wife there and my children are famed after him. that is him holding my oldest

son gabriel whose middle name is -- which is nelson mandela's first name. so it took me back to a time in my life that i loves and also to this extraordinary privilege that i had to be with this truly great man who, you know, as you listen to the podcast, you think it does make you love him more. it is not that i take him off the pedestal, but it is human being on that pedestal and not a statue and he was a human being and that is why his achievement is to great and so enormous, because he did have flaws. he did sacrifice an immense amount and frankly, nicolle, it is talking about what we've been talking about for last six years, he was one of the greatest champions of democracy in human history. he brought democracy to tens of millions of people and sacrificed his entire life. so that model, that image is

important. it is it is important right now. >> you're going to make me cry. just remind our viewers how you came to write his autobiography and how you came to know him? >> well it was really an accident. i had gone to south africa for rolling stone and when the american publisher who had signed up mandela was looking for a collaborator, someone gave him that book and he read it and he called me the next morning and he made me the offer that you can't refuse. but i haven't -- i never met him before. so when i went down there about a month later, i met him for the first time. so, and he was a little taken aback by how young i was. he had a respect for age. a very traditional upbringing and when he saw me, he said, oh, you're a young man and that

wasn't a compliment. and it took a while and i think we both realized i had a job to do and ahe w and he said do you and get it done. >> let's listen to a list bit more. i have another excerpt, let's listen. >> if a man can challenge a law and go to jail, and come out, that man is not likely to be intimidated. >> it was that simple. and it was that profound. he saw wrong and tried to right it and he did. i never heard him talk about god or heaven or the after life. he wanted justice. i'm just, i don't want to take a break, though. he wanted justice in this lifetime. >> it is so -- well, you explain. it is everything.

>> yeah, you're trying to make me cry now, nicolle. but i'm not going to let you. but it was -- it was moving to go back to be in that room. and, you know, this -- an amazing sort of consistency in kong ruence with him. he talks about how he was before he went to prison. he was a lovely passage saying i was i radical and using language and challenge everybody. and i asked him over and over what happened to that young man who went to prison and how is he different thap the man who emerged 27 years later and when you ask a politician a question like that, even a great politician, a noble politician like nelson mandela, he doesn't want to say, well i changed. and so over and over i would ask this question and he would get frustrated with me and then one day, he said, i came out mature. and that word "mature", which may not sound like a great big thing to us, was an enormous thing to him. it meant self-discipline, it

meant being controlled and never losing your mood or getting rattled and that is how he was. it was really kind of uncanny. i was with him the day he learned that ris honey, the head of the south africa party was assassinated. that is a moment that could have catapulted south africa into a civil war. he was immensely calm. and the first thing he did was, he said i'm going to go back to johannesberg and i'm going to give a speech to the nation. this is before he was president. he was still an outlaw. the president of south africa did not go on television. he did. so it was really a lesson. and look, we work for politicians. part of the reason you go into politics is to see what kind of greatness is all about. and i had the privilege of seeing that and i saw that and it wasn't kind of greatness that was born, it was something that was earned through 27 years in

prison which acted as a kruseibbel to burn away everything it was unessential. >> wow, it is incredible and it is history but it is our history and it is so timely. i urge everyone to listen to it. the new podcast, mandela, lost tapes is now available on audible, ring stengel thank you so much for waiting, we hoped to do this yesterday. thank you for coming back today. >> thank you, nicolle. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. be right ba.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we're so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. happy friday. >> hi, nicolle. welcome to "the beat." we continue with donald trump, he had been fighting through the courts to slow down