>> as always, my thanks to you for watching the katie phang show. velshi, is next. >> today on velshi. major breakthroughs in multiple investigations into a search and, twice impeached ex president. plus, how a republican attorney general is trying to leverage a case of a ten year old rape

victim, to pursue an anti-abortion agenda. we'll talk to down in georgia, where the battle for the latest undecided usmca, is in full force. with big early voting numbers, narrow margins in the polls, and fresh scandals erupting in its final days. then, our very first returned guest to the velshi banned book club, the one and only, margaret atwood, joins me later this morning to talk about the tempest, and the modern retelling of the story, hag seed. velshi, starts now. good morning to you, i'm ali velshi, it is saturday december the 3rd, as we approach the two year anniversary of one of the darkest days in american democracy, we're entering a new stage of the investigation into the insurrection. at the same time, a breakthrough in a separate criminal investigation into the twice impeached former president's handling of classified documents. it's clearing a path for the

justice department in what could be the most dangerous case yet for donald trump. let's start with the insurrection. elmer stewart rhodes, the founder of the right-wing o keepers group who wears an eye patch, because he once excellently shot himself in the face, has been found guilty of seditious conspiracy related to the january 6th attack on the united states capitol. rhodes was also found guilty on several other charges, including obstructing a new official proceeding. notably, roads did not enter the capitol on january six, but instead stayed outside acting as a quote, battlefield general according to prosecutors. another member of the oath keepers was also found guilty of seditious conspiracy in the trial, although other three oath keepers defenses were acquitted on the charge, but found guilty on other charges including, obstructing an official proceeding. the oath keepers are just one of the extreme, right wing groups that -- call to come to washington. to stop the certification of

the 2020 election. once he announced the rally for january six, prosecutors said the oath keepers focused on that day, to prevent the president jewel transition of presidential power by any means necessary, including violence. in the closing argument, prosecutors even cited one messages that stewart rhodes sent his followers after 2020 election. quote, we are not getting through this, without a civil war. two more seditious conspiracy trials involving the oath keepers, and another extreme right group, the proud boys, are set to start in the next several weeks. also, in the next several weeks, a final report from the house select committee on the january 6th attack which could mean potential criminal referrals to the dust justice department for the former president. there is a creasing urgency for the committee to finish its historic, an important work. it's set to end at the end of the year, days before republicans officially take

control of the house of representatives. republicans are vowing to hold investigations into the investigation itself, with the potential, the next speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy, sending a letter to the committee demanding that it preserve records. something, mind you, but it's already doing because it's required to do so by law. it's also required by law for a president, not to take documents. classified or otherwise, once them once they leave office. by now, we've all seen the fbi evidence indicating that donald trump did not abide by that rule with roughly 13,000 documents, classified and otherwise, discovered swirled away in his florida gulf resort, mar-a-lago. you're looking now, i just a handful of what was discovered there. and now, a major roadblock into holding the former president accountable, has been cleared. a federal appeals court has ended a special master's review of those documents, ruling that a judges order, ordering that review, didn't follow the law. trump had demanded an outside

review of the mar-a-lago documents, which remember, were obtained through a legal search warrant. essentially arguing that he didn't trust the government, and that he somehow, owned these items. he then found a judge, who agreed with, him and who appointed that special master, basically an arbiter who was tasked with deciding which documents the government was allowed to look. up in the ruling the court to notes that quote, the law is, clear we cannot write a rule which allows any subject of a search warrant to block government investigations after the warrant. notably, the ruling came from a panel, from the 11th circuit court which consisted of three judges appointed by republicans, won by george w. bush, and two by none other than donald trump, his own insurrection impeached south. joining me now to analyze this more, is -- she's a former -- she's an msnbc contributor, and

columnist, and her latest piece on substack, dives right into the heart of the better. 11th circuit to trump, you are not above the law! good morning to you joyce, good to see you, thank you for being with. us tell us what you mean. your column is very detailed, but fundamentally what happened here? because many of us thought the appointment of the special master was lawfully done, and this panel says there's something wrong with it. >> it's such a complicated role in, ali, that essentially the 11th circuit is telling the district judge, who entertained this case that trump brought that she never had jurisdiction to consider his request to interfere with doj's ongoing criminal investigation. and judge aileen cannon, and the southern just ticked of florida, and the judge within trump's case landed, really did contort herself and the law to rule in his favor. she exercise an unusual form of jurisdiction, called equity

jurisdiction, and the 11th circuit had no trouble dismantling her decision. their analysis went something like this, they said that in order for a court to find it deck equity jurisdiction, the party who comes in front of them, in this case, trump, has to show that their constitutional rights have been callously disregarded. not only had trump's rights been not -- disregarded by the doj. in fact, the doj had gone to a federal judge who authorized a search warrant that they executed. that was was trump was complaining about. so the 11th circuit said that this case has to be this mist, the doj is entitled to continue investigation into trump, just like it would be with anyone else. >> you noted in your column that the court delivers a resounding loss to trump. he's told repeal, probably, well right, because that's kind of what donald trump does. what is the net effect of this? what happens now that the special master is no longer there, and that review of

documents is no longer there. what is it that the department of justice can do, that they weren't allowed to do before? >> i think that's exactly the right focus. here trump usually uses appeals in courts to delay people who are trying to hold him accountable. i don't think he'll be able to do that here, because the impact of this order is to give doj permission to go ahead, full steam, and use all of the documents obtained during the search and its investigation. trump, i suppose, could try to get some court, the 11th circus, maybe the supreme court, to state that order, and to continue to hinder doj. but based on this ruling we have seen from the 11th circuit, i think it's very unlikely that that will happen. so he can appeal, he can take up whatever time the courts will give him. but doj will continue to put their case together during that time. >> meanwhile, quite separately, we -- we saw pat cipollone, his assistant had philbin walking into a court in d.c., a place

where we believe this grand jury is seated. we saw prosecutors in that case, also walking into that court, nbc reporters observe them getting off on the floor we believe the grand jury seated. what do you make of any of that and the tie between the january six investigation, and the monologue and mastication? >> so, it's interesting knows. we now have a special counsel who is looking at both the january 6th investigation, and the mar-a-lago investigation. it's not clear to us whether those are being considered by the same grand jury, or tried to separate grand juries. if so, whether these former white house counsel lawyers were there to testify to one grandeur, or perhaps too. both but however this plays out, this is a very important development, because these are folks who have resisted testifying only in the sense that they understand that their job is to protect the institution of the presidency. and once property subpoenaed

and ordered to testify, they will be able to discuss the very close interactions with the former president, at critical points in time for both of these cases. their testimony on either case could be helping the doj what trump now, when he knew it, and what he did. those are really the sorts of issues that are critical for doj's investigation. the report is -- i think the two gentlemen spent a combined total ten hours in front of a grand jury, that's a lot of time, that suggest that there was some meaningful testimony. moving forward, i think this is an important development. >> let's just for those of us who don't have experience as lawyers, what does this all mean. there's some people who say nothing sticks to donald trump, the democrats are gonna lose the house and the next speaker, and the next republican speaker is going to turn this investigation into something else entirely, or dismantle it. what does it mean that somebody

like pat cipollone, who's actually a lawyer, who knows how these things work is given instructions -- what comes of it in the end? >> yeah, i mean i suppose the devil is in the details. after all, pat cipollone is the lawyer who was involved in many ways in trump's impeachment trial, and went to bat for him. but here he is a fact witness, and it's an odd position for the white house counsel to be in. typically, if you're summoned to testify, it really is something that falls within the scope of executive privilege. what sorts of deliberations were going on in the white house. here, prosecutors are really asking, did you and deserve the former president commit a crime? in that sense he's no different from someone who observes a bank robbery, or murder, and is being asked to tell prosecutors factual details about a crime that may have happened, to see whether they can prove that someone that they are

investigating, to see if they committed that crime is in fact criminally responsible. so this is an investigation, really unlike any other. of course, congress, even when it changes hands, although it can try to make like difficult for doj, it can try to strip funding, it can certainly conduct in extensive investigation to the investigators, but it can't shut down the court councils core mission, to move the investigation forward and try to get to the truth on behalf of the american people. >> and of course, the importance of pat cipollone, not just was he white house counsel, not just as he a lawyer who understands the consequences of not being honest in his testimony, he was in the room where it happened. he was. there he's got actual firsthand testimony that he can provide. so it's not just some random hearsay conjecture about what might been on trump's mind. >> yeah that's absolutely right. we hear cassidy hutchinson's testimony in front of the january six committee, and it's compelling, but as you say, much of it is hearsay, and that

means it may not be admissible in court. pat cipollone is the witness prosecutors witness can put on the witness stand. -- we don't know the details of what he said. perhaps he, in some way, has testimony that tends to forgive the president, the former president, or excuse criminal line billet-y. that seems very unlikely to be the case here. particularly when you think about the length of time that he was in front of the grand jury, that leaves one with the impression that there was a lot of information, a lot of evidence that was being extracted from his testimony. >> joyce, as always, thank you very amazing analysis. joyce vance is a nbc contributor, and columnist. we're gonna continue to discuss the fate of the former president and political party at the top of the, hour with michael steele, and olivia troye. coming up in the next, hour i'll call to order this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club featuring a repeat appearance by the legendary author, margaret atwood.

this week ban booked is actually a play, the tempest by william shakespeare, i will talk to atwood about that play and her modern interpretation of it. haggis-ed. then we go to atlanta for the largest sonata of election. the election is on tuesday, but before, that did you know that a werewolf can kill a vampire? georgia's republican -- former president obama noted this week while campaigning for the democratic candidate, raphael warnock. >> the other night was watching this movie, i was watching this movie called fright night or free, tonight or some kind of, night but it is about vampires, i don't know if you know composure cool people, are they not? but i'll tell you something that they found out, i werewolf can kill a vampire. did you know that? i never knew that. i don't want to be vampire anymore, i want to be a werewolf. >> since the last time i was here, mr. walker husband talking about issues, that are of great importance to the people of georgia, like whether it's better to be a vampire, or

a werewolf. this is a debate, but i must confess, i once had muscle, when i was seven. as far as i'm concerned, he can be anything he wants to be, except for a united states senator. vin? oh nice. kevin, where are you... kevin?!?!?.... hey, what's going on? i'm right here! i was busy cashbacking for the holidays with chase freedom unlimited. i'm gonna cashback on a gingerbread house! oooh, it's got little people inside! and a snowglobe. oh, i wished i lived in there. you know i can't believe you lost another kevin. it's a holiday tradition! that it is! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited. ♪ nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. earn big time with chase freedom unlimited. you get advice like: just stop. go for a run. go for 10 runs! run a marathon. instead, start small.

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between democratic senator, raphael warnock and republican, herschel, walker is three days away, but nearly 2 million votes have already been cast. early voting and yesterday, and according to georgia secretary of state, more than 1.8 million voters have already participated. about 4 million voters of participated in the midterm election. this is actually very strong. that's more than a quarter, by the way, of georgia illegible mortar population. a majority of those votes were cast by registered democrats. but if the runoff follows the

same pattern as election day, in november, walker could see a surge of support on tuesday. as the new times points, out going into november 8th, warnock was ahead by 255,000 votes, but walker won election day, by nearly 220,000 votes. so, it could be very close race, once again, the latest potus numbers show a race in dead heat among people who are likely to vote in this runoff. the survey taking in the rest days of november, show support for warnock at 52%, support for walker at 48%. however, the differential falls within the poll's margin of error. meanwhile, the two candidates continue their efforts to woo candidates. today -- it watch party, he has been set by new round of allegations bypass domestic violence, published this week in the daily beast. we have reached out to walker and his campaign, but we have not heard back. senator warnock is in atlanta this morning, we're in just a

few minutes he's going to hold an event with a labor union. nbc's vaughn hillyard is at that event. the senator should be speaking at the top of the hour, good morning siobhan, thanks for being with us. talk to me about the final few days on the campaign trail. >> early voting is over, we should not. all at this point, it's all about turning out voters on tuesday, election day. you noted, the record early voter turnout yesterday. we are at a polling location in cobb county, it felt more like a tuesday, like actual election day. you saw lines of at least 75 people from sunrise, all the way to sundown, ali. and this is a moment here, where there's a reckoning in our politics, and especially here in georgia where the efforts to convince folks to vote, you know, it's a mistake to suggest that democrats want turnout for an election like this year. we saw that in january of 2021, in those runoffs that prepare the life of john are six, and raphael warnock, to those

democratic u.s. senate victories. what you are seeing so far it is record turnout here for this runoff. that's where the question comes out, who shot on tuesday? i think it's important to understand that the map of georgia, it's a complex one. there are layers to the voting demographics here. in the voting electorate here. in cobb county, where we were yesterday, all let you hear from just a few of the voters, this was one of those counties that it was a long time conservative stronghold, that over the last election cycles has swung over in democratic favor, and that is why there is such extra attention being paid to it. take a listen to a few voters we talk to. >> why vote. tell me again we voted for, and why? >> i voted for raphael warnock. i feel like it's so obvious. i think he's the most qualified, and i have significant concerns about herschel walker, on his background. >> usually vote democrat? >> i do, yes.

the fact that we even have a runoff is highly concerning, but i'm optimistic. >> ray, what led you to come vote today? >> desperation. we can't have what's going on, going on, any further. we need to try to get some of the republicans out of power. >> but it is more here than even the greater atlanta area. you talk about an event that's being held by raphael warnock along -- it's an aapi event here. you have to look at some of these rural counties here. i think we pay a little bit less attention to, because when you look on the map, ali, you see that they are dark red. donald trump, for instance, one 70% of the vote in hall county. if you compare a whole county to where was ten years ago, wouldn't mitt romney won 78%, that 8% difference in a roll county like that, is significant. a large part, is because of the latino voters in some of these

outer georgia, rural georgia areas. i spent a good amount of time in a whole county, back before the 2021 runoff. i was talking to some young voters there, that are first generation voters, and they made the case that look, yes on the map we may be a dark red place, but you have to pay attention. especially when it comes down to literally thousands of votes that may separate the likes of raphael warnock, and herschel walker. it's just 38,000 votes that separated the two in the general election. it's those rural role counties that could be the ultimate game-changer. so that's why on tuesday night, when we were all looking at the map, no don't just focus on cobb county, don't just focus on fulton county, but it will be those outlying counties as well. at first look, they may be pro herschel walker, but the differentiation there could be the game-changer. >> this is the important part. we look at red and blue on these maps, and we see those nine counties around georgia, and we expect them to be, blue and the counties around savannah, and places like that. but in fact, what you're saying, red and blue is not going to

tell you the story, it's really how red, and how blue, particularly how red in some of these counties. we will be on tv all night on tuesday, nights we'll be watching closely. thanks my friend, vaughn hillyard, live in atlanta georgia. vaughn always just gives you a lot of detail that you didn't know before going into it. between inflation and worries of a recession, 2022 had isn't it and when easier for the economy. some new numbers -- growing average hourly racers, small interest rates hikes, low unemployment, they're all painting a much better picture. the scoop on all things economic, next, on velshi. , next, on velshi. n what's possible and balance risk and reward. and with a clear plan, rayna can enjoy wherever she's headed next. that's the planning effect, from fidelity. the new subway series menu. the greatest sandwich roster ever assembled. tony, the new outlaw's got double pepper jack and juicy steak. let's get some more analysis on that, chuck. mmm. pepper jack. tender steak. very insightful, guys. the new subway series. what's your pick?

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economically for hundreds of millions of americans. despite their still being much too -- a few reason positive indicators suggest all the republicans fearmongering about biden's economy, might not be as serious as they made it out to be. the u.s. labor department dropped its monthly jobs report

yesterday, showing that more jobs were created than economists predicted. in the month of november, the american economy added 263,000 jobs. that's exceeding expectations by about 60,000 jobs. meanwhile, the federal unemployment rate was unchanged at 3.7%. we have to remember that for decades, economists had considered 5% unemployment to be full employment. meaning, they always expected 5% of people would be moving in and out of jobs. the average hourly rage has grown 5.1%, year over year. that's great news for workers, however inflation is higher than that, so the average worker is still losing money to inflation, and that is the topic that everyone is concerned about. this is actually where there are incremental good news. the federal reserve has raised interest rates six times since march, in an effort to tamp down inflation. this week, fed chairman, jerome powell, signal that the fed may not be as aggressive in the coming months. and they could soon scale back the size and the frequency --

he maintains that the fight against inflation is far from over. we also know this week that despite inflation, and those higher interest rates, the u.s. economy grew at a faster rate between july and september. that's the third quarter. faster than economists have expected. that growth was driven primarily by gains and exports, and consumer spending. recently revised numbers show that u.s. gross domestic product grew at an annualized rate of 2.9% during the third. quarter -- this is yet another data point that should lay at least enough fears that we are intersection, or had a towards one. just last week, and russ -- not usually behavior that you see from folks who are worried about a looming recession. it doesn't mean we're out of the woods. it's just more data to calculate. for more on the subject, i'm more joined --

chief economic adviser, the author of the only game in town, central bags instability, and avoiding the next collapse. mohammed, thank you for joining us this morning. the reason i needed to talk to you about this is because you are not pollyannaish about the economy. i want to get your sons. a lot of positive economic did in the last week, however, we still have high inflation, it's moderating, but it's still high. there are still fears that there will be a recession in the coming months if we're not in one now. tell me your take. in one now >> i think you can summarize all this by going back to the jobs report, which you mentioned. look, there were three elements of good news. one is we continue to create lots of jobs, to, we are paying people more, and three, the typically most vulnerable segments of the proper elation are seeing the unemployment rate come down. that is all good news. it points to a resilient

economy. however, there are clouds on the horizon. one is something that you didn't mention, labor force participation. how many people are in the labor force? it's already low, and it came down, meaning that we have more supply issues. second, inflation remains a problem. yes it's coming down, but is not coming down fast enough, and if anything, this week's numbers suggest that the fed is still doing too little, too late. so put all that together, we remain exposed to the risk of a policy mistake, and another one on the side of the fed, and that's why people are still worried about the recession. >> too little too late, which means they have to do more. through her whole lot of american sitting there and saying, please stop with the interest hikes. there have been six or, far power made clear that there will be. more what's the thinking here? that the fed wants to increase interest rates as it can, before there's an actual

economic slowdown, because of such a remarkable danger to being in a world in which the economy is slowing, interest rates are -- inflation is high, and you have to raise interest rates. eugene of york on me and it's difficult to get out. of >> yeah, think of it as driving through a. you should be slowing down. the freeway is getting more treacherous, you should be slowing down. there's fog on the horizon. they did not slow down. so last year, they should have slowed down, but they assured us that this was transitory, the fog was going to lift, but it didn't left. when they started slowing down, they didn't start going down fast enough, so they're hitting the brakes. we've had four, for, ali, consecutive 0.7 5% increases. that's never happened in history before. having hit the brakes, the car hasn't slowed down enough, so the fog is upon us. the worst thing is to continue driving in the fog, too fast. that's why they're trying to slow us down even more. have they started earlier,

there would be less damage to the economy. but unfortunately, we are where we. are >> you believe that there will be a recession? if, so do you have any thoughts about what it will feel like and look like? >> yes on the latter, no on the former. what i mean by that, a lot of people have gone out and said 100 percent probably a recession. i don't think. so yes, there is an uncomfortably high probability of recession, but we can still avoid it. the same people who say 100 percent probability of recession, are telling you don't worry, it's going to be short and shallow, just like they told you, don't worry about inflation, it will be transitory. if we do fall into recession, and i sincerely hope we do not, if we do hop in one. there's no guarantee will be short and shallow. there are predicted instabilities in the economy, and the finance, that could make the resumption more painful. it's absolutely essential that we do whatever we can to not fall into a recession. >> mohammed always great to talk, to thank you for bringing your expertise and your advice

and the highway and the fog and slowing down, it helps people understand exactly what we're headed. into muhammad -- is a former deputy director of the monetary, fun achieve egg -- author the important book the only game, town central banks, instability, and avoiding the next collapse. in just a couple days the supreme court is set to hear all arguments for a little known, but extremely important case that quite literally could decide the fate of american democracy. what you need to know about it, next, on velshi. next, on velshi. up to 50% off. bedroom furniture up to 30% off. and décor up to 50% off. plus get fast and free shipping on everything! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ [music playing] let's go. ♪ mom, let me see your phone. ♪

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few well-timed tweets. the story of those democracy saving tweets goes like this. donald trump's advisor, john eastman, had been suggesting to donald trump, that vice president mike pence, had the authority to block the certification of a electoral votes by congress, and overturn the 2020 election in trump's favor. eastman-based his theory on a misguided interpretation of the electoral count act. don trump was either convinced by eastman, or thought it could work, and put the screws to mike pence and -- pence needed a way out of this. pence's advisor called a friend, and actress for legal mind, this man, michael luttig, but. -- the legal role of the vice president in the electoral vote certification. so judge luttig, put out a series of seven tweets, saying in no uncertain terms, that the vice president's only appropriate path forward was to certify the vote. he tweeted in part quote, the only responsibility and power

of the vice president under the constitution is to faithfully count of the electoral college votes as they have been cast. that was apparently, all mike pence needed to help him do the right thing, the lawful thing. only a day later, vice president pence put out a statement explaining why he was certifying the elected -- the election for the right winner, joseph r. biden. in the statement, he cited luttig's legal analysis. luttig went on to lead on a bipartisan effort and prevent it from being used it to manipulate future election. meanwhile, trump is testing out a different tactic to stay in power. he even asked state legislators, and state election officials in arizona, and georgia, to throw out votes and overturn the election results. that strategy attempted to and boyer fringe concept, i asl for short. now extreme interpretations of the isil doctrine argue that

state legislatures have the absolute power to set election rules, and to determine disputed outcomes. behind the scenes, as trump's allies argued that this theory allowed for state legislators to select electors who had cut through roots ridden champ, even though the certified electors were lawfully bound to cross the votes for joe biden, or whomever had actually won the popular vote in their states. legal experts across the political spectrum said these theory is baseless. judge luttig, a conservative, said this about the theory on the show back in october. >> there is literally, literally, nothing at all in the constitution, or in the history either from the time of the founding of our country or the flaming of the constitution, that even hints at the possibility of such a theory. >> now, what began as a dispute

over a heavily gerrymandered gus no in north carolina, has brought the i.s. all theory back into focus. and as well, to the supreme, in roe v harbor. the supreme will hear all arguments for that case on wednesday. if the supreme court embraces aisle, it could have dire con gristles with integrity of future elections in the united states. it could give elect state representatives, and legislators, the authority to redraw districts without any court oversight. it would end protections against gerrymandering. it could allow state legislators to ignore their own states voting laws, subvert their own constitutions, and even handpicked presidential electors. in an op-ed for the atlantic, a judge luttig wrote that more v. harper, maybe the most important case for the american democracy in almost two and a half century since americas founding, and quote. i would love to be able to say there is no danger of the united states supreme court giving rise to the end of american democracy, but i cannot say. that

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the growing threat to democracy, both nationally and globally, then you should play close attention to my next guest. history is going to remember her as a crusader for the truth, on the front lines of the war for our minds. an investigative journalist who made many of us aware of the dangers of disinformation, long before a poisoned our national discourse. at great risk to her own self, she has taking anti-democratic forces on several fronts, from al-qaeda terrorists, to present day autocrats. in her three plus decades as a journalist, she has identified one common denominator, utilized by these dangerous groups to destabilize civil society. social media algorithms that spread disinformation, and that radicalize users. the hero i'm talking about is the former time person of the year, and the 2021 nobel peace prize reserve, maria wrestler.

she's a filipino, and american journalist, facing trumped up criminal charges in the philippines after the news by that she found, published a series of stories exposing government corruption, and online disinformation campaigns, tied to the former president, rodrigo duterte. her work as a journalist made her a frequent target for duterte, who is primarily known in the west, for his brutal campaign against alleged drug dealers that left thousands dead, or disappeared. in less than two years, maria has faced ten arrest warrants. she has posted bail, ten times. if the supreme court, in the philippines, uphold her conviction, it could shut down her and land harundale in decades. crucially, the unseen forces who are central to this politically motivated trial, the forces that cat imported duterte to powder, and -- are nowhere to be seen in the courtroom. these are the same forces responsible for poisoning our own -- and referring to disinformation

on social media. as we have learned throughout the trump era, troublesome media companies like facebook, randall dangerous algorithms with impunity. the radicalized ordinary citizens, helping anti-democratic forces recruit digital soldiers. maria ressa shines light on this brainwashing as a global phenomenon, and she points on her brand new memoir, how to stand up to a dictator, the fight for our future. it's not a coincidence, the democracy is under threat globally. the lack of regulatory guardrails against dangerous algorithms that reward extremism, and spread disinformation, she argues, has made social media sites like facebook, one of the biggest destabilizing forces in modern history. quote, the same thing that happened with stop the steal in the united states. --

end quote. while the nature of the threat to society has changed overtime, big data has allowed to have the spreading of lies, animate knit you lay shun of committee heavier, on a vast scale. it makes it a professional threat to democracy and the rule of law. maria warns that unless governments take meaningful actions to protect their citizens, social media companies will continue to undermine the personal autonomy that is required to make a and forms political decision in a healthy job market, see all while regarding public pressure as something that can be easily ignored. after a quick break, maria russell joins me live to discuss her powerful new book, the war for one's mind, and the global fight to save democracy. fight to save democracy coaxed with a spoon

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story of maria ressa, a journalist an entire freedom fighter who has battled threats all across the globe. maria joins me now, she's a ceo and cofounder of news agent, rappler, which is leading the fight for fresh freedom in the philippines, and some very around the world. -- earned her the nobel peace prize last year. she's also the author of the powerful new memoir that is out now. how to stand up to a dictator, the fight for our future. maria, good to see you again. thank you for always being a friend of the show. it's so powerful to have you on here, because i can't convey enough to my viewers that they are watching a real life hero, or a real life fighter for democracy. we appreciate the work you are doing. you're still under threat. you are currently appealing some very, very serious charges that you face, criminal charges in the philippines.

summarize for us what you have been convicted of, and how social media has played a role in your persecution. >> it's the same analogy. first of all, ali, thank you for summarizing the book so well. it is this unseen force that has helped rollback democracy, all around the world. for me, it was in the philippines, and this is database out of vince bass, we have that data, it's bottom up exponential lies, attacks. then that shifts reality slightly, like astroturfing, and top down, it came down from the president himself, in my case, president duterte, saying the same narrative that journalist equals criminal. a week after he did, that all of a sudden i got the first subpoena for rappler, followed by 14 vest again shuns, 11 cases filed. it started with 11, and then went to ten, and now i still have seven criminal cases. i have been convicted, you pointed this out in one, for a

case i can't talk about, because part of the conditions for being able to travel here to the united states is a very broad clause, subjugate sub clause. so, let's suffice to say, there are buckets that phone to taxation. cases that were filed about six months after the government gave my company a top corporate tax. the past dozen, matters of five tax evasion charges, there are side reliable charge, now the supreme court, and then finally, securities fraud which leads right to the kind of, how would you -- it's a global trend as well, you're anti nationalist, you're working for, you're being manipulated by foreigners, all eyes. >> interesting, because the bucket you talked about in which exploitative paint journalists, in the philippines, you are criminal.

in america, under donald trump, you are an enemy of the people. in hungary, you're undermining the government, you're working for the opposition, or for other people. this plays out and a lot of places, and one of the things that you write about is that the absence of rule of law, in the virtue and digital ward, you described as democracy's death by 1000 cuts. >> absolutely. if you think about it, this is what we're dealing with. american tech companies, and now, of course the john by companies like tiktok, but at the beginning they claimed that the need new loss for the virtual world. keep in mind, we are physically, and virtually, only one person. right? it should be that the laws, the rule of laws, and the physical world, should apply to the virtual world. -- i've seen your interviews with different people on section 2:30, essentially gave the technology platforms impunity. they stuck back, and what we

have seen globally is that this impunity online, leads to cascading failures, off line. impunity online leads to impunity off line. this is one of the failures -- of care -- dealing with the public sphere, they took the gatekeeping powers away from news organizations. they abdicated responsibility, but the other part is, where are the governments? they're supposed to protect us, where is law -- in our minds. in our minds