a big meeting with potentially even bigger implications getting ready to go down with the head of january 6 committee telling our team there is agreement about making criminal referrals but the who

and when and why still to be determined. and also this hour, another movements in the insurrection investigation today with the new doj special counsel issuing subpoenas in three states. what he's looking for and from whom, coming up. plus new reaction to a public snell on capitol hill. the what the family is brian sicknick is saying they declined to shake the hands of mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy today. joining me now from capitol hill is our correspondent there ryan nobles and justice and intel correspondent ken delanian is joining us as well. as the january 6 select committee is set to meet virtually to talk about the issue of criminal referrals, i want to play what chairman benny thompson is telling us. >> we have not made a decision as to who, but we have made a

decision that criminal referrals will happen. i wish i could tell you one, two, three, four, but that is all still being discussed. >> is the expertation that that is what is go getting worked out in a matter of hours that meeting tonight. in other words, heading into wednesday morning, do you think that decision will be finalized or will it take more time? they don't have much of it, which is why i ask. >> you know, i would be really surprised if we wake up tomorrow morning and get clarity on this issue. this is an ongoing debate in the january 6 select committee almost since the inception. whether or not it is valuable and worth it for them to issue a criminal referrals to the department of justice or any other agency for that matter. and we should also point out that there are a big universe that falls under the umbrella of criminal referral. it could be contempt of congress referral which they've already done. it could be something that is within the context of their report that they say that the department of justice should

look at. so what it appears is that they are settled on the idea that referrals of some ilk need to be handed over to specific government agencies, the department of justice included. but exactly the form and fashion that those referrals take is still very much up for debate. in fact, after we talked to the chairman bennie thompson, we talked to a number of other members and they are still in the throes of this debate. whether or not it is a perjury charge. do they believe someone came before the committee and does not tell the truth. is it witness intimidation, they've talked about as a big problem or is it the events leading up to and on january 6 that they believe violated a crime or the standing in the way of certification of an election and they wanted to make it clear to merrick garland and hi team that they think this is something that should be prosecuted. and all that is on the table and it may take some time until they issue the final report. >> ken, wloo would happen if

they do issue these referrals, as chairman thompson indicated, how does the a.g. handle that. because correct me if i'm wrong, the doj could get criminal referrals from multiple places, it doesn't mean their compelled to do anything about it just because they get the referral, right. >> that is absolutely right. these are largely symbolic because the doj has a massive investigation into january 6. but if there is a referral for perjury as ryan suggested or potential witness tampering, that is a new issue,s that not something that the doj is investigating so that could steer the justice department in a new direction. but in terms of overall january 6 investigation, they're already pretty far down the track and it is the case that the committees' hears appeared to have spurred the justice department into greater action to expand this investigation. but they are now well and truly into it and these referrals really are largely symbolic. >> is it your sense, ryan, that members committee would object to hearing these potential criminal referrals categorized

as symbolic. i think ken is right on that but you have to think that from what we've heard publicly from some some congress, they're hoping this will move the needle more. >> that is that they're wrestling with. and the idea that they sent a referral to department or justice and they ignore it, it takes some of the symbolic power, which is how ken described it, out of the hands of members of congress. so they need to be very responsible about this because it could set a precedent for referrals like this down the road. in fact they've stumbled with this because there are been criminal contempt referrals for mark meadows that they sent to the department of justice that garland and his team chose not to act on. so there is a political cost in the back of their minds as they deliberate whether or not to take the step. and this is my analyst not based on any reporting that it may be

new information that we have yet to be privy to as ken alludes to. something that came directly there in front of the committee that we may see as this is bourne out. there is still a lot on the table and they still haven't made the final decisions. >> and it is not like they have a limited amount of time to do these things. let's talk about new information from the other end of this thing which is the at department of justice. you referred to their investigation of what went down on and before january 6. with nbc news now confirming that the new special counsel, jack smith, is issuing local subpoenas, no, issuing subpoenas to locals, arizona, michigan, wisconsin and i think we've just confirmed, i'm not going to shay it, let me check my email to make sure i'm right. at least three states, possibly one more as well. talk about what the special counsel is looking for and what the officials are and i will say pennsylvania has received a doj subpoena in allegheny county.

so four states total, ken. >> this is a very interesting development, it shows that the justice department, the special council is going after communications between the trump campaign, donald trump himself and a list of 19 aides and associates including rudy giuliani, john eastman, cleata mitchell, all of the people working on efforts to over turn the election. they want any communications between those people and the county election officials. we know they've already subpoenaed these people directly from their own communications. but they may not have gotten them all or they may want extra copies or to compare the copies to make sure that they have everything. and so they're going after these public entities. the subpoena itself asked the public officials not to discuss it but now that the cat is out of the bag and the media has learned about it, they're all confirmed that they got these subpoenas and it shows that the justice department is chugging along, hallie.

>> ken and ryan, thank you as well. let' talk about what is going on down south because you voters outright now in the georgia senate runoff. polling places will start closing in just about four hours from now. starting at 7:00 eastern. officials say we could start getting results not too long after that. in the polling that we've seen leading up to today, you have senator raphael warnock with a small lead but herschel walker is still inside of the margin of error. margins are close here. that is what we know for sure. the georgia secretary of state is reporting wait times of a minute. with the doj and announcing today that it does have a presence in georgia monitoring several polling places for compliance with federal voting laws. i want to bring in nbc news correspondents who are in georgia for us. von, let me start with you on the walker campaign. i've been speaking about folks and the thing that i keep

hearing and is very obvious to say, i will probably get my j card revoked that it will come down to turnout for herschel walker but it is important for him versus what we saw in early voting for senator warnock here. they have to get that. that is -- if they don't, it is game over for him? >> right. that is right. and just so everybody knows we're in dekalb county which is democratic and this is a democratic neighborhood. you're not seeing a line here at this particular voting location. but in the conservative areas you're exactly right, that is what we're talking about. that is what we're looking for. and i'm just getting here some new numbers in from some of the conservative counties. where the walker campaign is presently looking at. i just want to give folks two anecdotes at this time. one of them is cherokee county. this is a county that just one month ago in the general election went in favor of herschel walker by a two to one

margin. so far they had 44,000 early votes and as of 1:00 p.m. they had 30,000 voters show up here on this tuesday. these are the types of turn yut numbers that herschel walker is looking for. whether it is enough, that is depending on just how favorable the early vote in the metropolitan counts were for raphael warnock. the second county is forsythe county. herschel walker won by a two to one margin here and i'm told now that as of 1:00 p.m., here again we're using this early afternoon number as a barometer, as of 1:00 p.m., the number of voters in person today was just 600 voters fewer than the tuesday of november 8th. so, that is the indicator that at least the same day voters, this is where republicans need folks to turn out on election day today, just 600 few he voters today for this runoff on this tuesday compared to one month ago on tuesday at election

day. so if you're herschel walker and at least you know that there are some conservative voters that turning out. whether it is enough, i don't think we have a good understanding of that. i'm waiting to hear from walker allies as to what they're hearing in other parts of the state. >> thank you. shaq, let me go to you. the poll workers and getting uses to that, is that having an impact where you are? >> we're seeing this 34r5i out in realtime. i'll tell you, since i've been here this afternoon, the vast majority of people coming out of this polling location are not comingute with that i voted sticker and instead they're looking down at their phone. they need to go to a different location, a different precinct because they showed up to the wrong precinct. so yes, if you live in georgia, check that voter registration and make sure you're going to the right voting precinct even if you voted a month ago for the general election or it was your early voting location, there is a difference there.

because the assistant poll manager told me it is not just one or two people but seeing this for a lot of people. listen to what she told me a couple of minutes ago. >> of the people who showed up today, we've probably turned around two to every one person who could vote here electronically. it is frustrated for the voters and it is frustrating for us because we want everyone to vote. >> and she said this is a direct result of the new voting law that was put in place after the 2020 election. it is important to note that things are going smoothly outside of that when people come in they're being processed quickly but that voting law change is a key provision in terms of the provisional ballots. people who show up at the wrong precinct, they can't use a provisional ballot until 5:00 p.m. they need to go to another precinct. they're correct precinct to cast that ballot. you've seen some of the other changes in the law that shortened the runoff period, we talked about that, shortened the early voting period in this state and semly leads to more people showing up on election

day. so i think the bottom line that you're hearing from election workers here at this one precinct but also statewide is check the voter registration and make sure you're showing up to the correct polling location if you're coming to have your voice be heard today. >> thank you to both of you. appreciate it. coming up here, a bit of an awkward moment for mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy after the family of a fallen capitol police officer declined to share thick their hands. and pushback to killer robots in san francisco that police could use during emergencies. some of those details are coming up. and plus jury picking up deliberations in the trump organization tax fraud trial. look at what testimony they're looking to have read back. we'll be back in just 60 seconds, one minute. stay with us. can feel rough on your skin? for softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle.

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police officer and two republican leaders in congress. we're talking about the family of brian sicknick. watch here. you see them walking by mitch mcconnell who has his hand out and sick nick died after the january 6 insurrection. and there was a gold medal ceremony today. and mcconnell was asked about this moment in the last hour. side stepping. listen. >> today we gave the gold medal to the heroes of january 6th. we admire and respect them. they laid their lives on the line and that is why we gave gold medal today to the heroes of january 6. >> i want to bring in senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. so you have mitch mcconnell staying in the lines of gold medal ceremony but the family, they have not been afraid and they just talked with some of our team about this on camera about what this moment meant and why this happened. talk us through. >> this is very much an intentional snub of the

republican leadership here. whom they are upset with for refusing to break completely with donald trump and the aftermath of the attack on january 6. and they explained that much to our team when we spoke to them shortly after this moment. listen to what they had to say. >> we got together and we said we're flot going to -- >> they came out right away and condemned what happened on january 6. and whatever hold trump has on them, they back stepped and dance and won't admit to wrongdoing, not necessarily them themselves but of trump, of the rioters. >> reporter: the family has been pretty clear as have some of the other officers that are family of other officers who they think is responsible for this 6th and if he find it unconscionable that kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell have been willing to come out and condemn donald trump out right. either for his role in the 6th or subsequently keeping their

zoons distance from him. and they did it in a quiet way, but that we're talking about it is an effective way on what could be the last major january 6 related ceremony we see for quite sometime. it is worth pointing out there is nothing scheduled for this upcoming anniversary a month from today. house republicans calling the shots at least in one chamber. we may not see the kind of big remembrance that we've gotten used to seeing on some of the key days. >> garrett hike live on the hill. thank you. >> still ahead, what president biden is up to in arizona this hour and how it fit news his so-called 2024 campaign warm-up. yes, we're talking about '24. let's do it. maybe not. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining.

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right now in new york city, the jury now in the first full day of deliberation in the tax fraud trial of the trump organization. accused a sweeping 15-year scheme to compensate top executives of the former president's company off the books. ron allen is outside of the courthouse and a note have come out from the jury. they want to know about something very specific. tell us more. >> reporter: this is the fifth question that they've asked. they've been deliberating for nine and a half hours and they're asking for testimony to be read back from an accounted payable clerk who testified this is going to take about an hour to hear what this person testified to again. the fact that they've asked five questions in nine and a half hours suggested that there is a

lot of complexity to all of this and one of the questions that they asked was that five of the jurors said that they didn't take notes during the course of the trial. and they asked for notebooks and pencils. now, as they're in deliberations. all of which would suggest there is a legal of confusion. there is a lot of detail. there were 14 days of testimony, 7 witnesses. but there were a lot of business records, pay stubs, accounts payable documents, it is -- you need to be a forensic accountant to go through a lost evidence. but the deeft and prosecutors have tried to say that allen weisselberg, the trump former chief executive, top executive who pled guilty to fraud, and who has been sentenced to five months in prison for doing so, who has been testifying for the prosecution, the defense has said this is all him. that he was a rogue employee and who did these things and he's guilty of tax fraud and guilty of -- of business document

falsifications by himself and this was not a company thing. on the other hand prosecutors have been saying this is a culture that there was a widespread fraud going on and the prosecutor made the point in closing arguments that donald trump, they say, the former president, knew about all of this and was aware even though he is not on trial here. so, how long this will take is unclear. but it is simple question of whether the jury believes the prosecution or the defense. was this just one rogue employee who happened to be at the top of the business or was this a more widespread thing going on that was illegal. and so the deliberations continue. so, and again, for more context, this is just one trial where the corporation is on trial and many think it could be a prelude and part of an ongoing investigation that more directly targeted

former president trump because of things he did as a business man during his time at the trump organization. that could come down the road. aat this point we're focused on the charges against this corporation and if found guilty the penalty is $1.7 million, which is a small amount in the grand scheme of things. so this trial, many see as a prelude for a larger trial and it goes on and it continues into questions of how donald trump, the former president, conducts his business practices. does he if, again, it is complex. so the bottom line, we wait and perhaps we'll get a verdict today. they're supposed to stop in about an hour or so. has been the court schedule. but you never know. >> ron, thank you. right now let's take you out west where president biden is in arizona for the first time since taking office.

official there to tour the plant but unofficially kicking off what our nbc team is framing as a 2024 warm-up, building up to a campaign launch with a victory lap showing cases his accomplishments in very specific parts of the country. josh letterman is traveling with the president in phoenix. arizona is a specific part of the country, specificallily as it relates to 2024, josh. there is reason why the president is having this event there today. >> reporter: yeah, that is right, hallie. and when the president tries and he did throughout the midterm campaign to drive home for americans the coming benefits of his economic plan in terms of long-term growth, and that manufacturing boom that the president has been promising, it is really hard to get that to break through to the average american when the immediate focus is on those short-term struggles with inflation and with higher prices. and so, that is one of the reasons that the president comes

to a place like here in arizona where they're announcing today that this semiconductor site, with a second phase is going to total $40 billion in investment by the taiwanese semiconductor company that is operating here. that is the largest foreign investment ever in this state. and you don't totally get a sense from where i'm standing the scope of this. but it is just massive. we're talking about two miles long in one direction and a mile wide, a thousand acre where's they're building enough semiconductor to eventually meet the entire demand of the united states. according to administration officials, apple's ceo tim cook is here today at this site. we just heard from him talking about how great it is that apple is going to be able to buy these chips made in america. but republicans hoping to use this visit by president biden to arizona his first visit since taking office, to call attention to the border crisis and the

fact that nearly two years in office, the president still has not visited the border as president. here is how president biden responded to that critique as he was leaving washington this morning. >> why go to a border state and not visit the border? >> there is more important things going on. they're going to invest millions of dollars in a new enterprise. >> reporter: and hallie, this event today is notable both in terms of who is here with president biden but also who is not. we're going to see a rare display of perhaps bipartisanship with governor doug ducey, the outgoing republican governor along with democratic elect governor katie hobbs. we'll also see mark kelly, the democratic senator from arizona and his wife gabby giffords. they were both on the flight here on air force one with the president. the other democratic senator from right here in arizona,

kyrsten sinema, she will not be in attendance today but ruben gallego, a house member who is considering primarying her next cycle, he will be here with the president today, hallie. >> josh letterman live for us in arizona. the 2024 back drop begins. josh, thank you. still ahead, the supreme court justices seeming to be sympathetic toward a web designer who is against same-sex marriage so what the path forward for this case. you heard from one side yesterday on the show i'm going to ask her attorney now coming up after the break. but first prosecutors unveiling formal charges after the lgbtq incident in colorado. we'll take you live there after the break. n colorado we'll take you live there after the break. ro. (scrooge) amazing phone! (vo) this holiday season verizon gives you the new iphone 14 pro. plus an apple gift, like apple watch se, ipad and beats fit pro. all on us. that's a value of up to $1900. (scrooge) wow!

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just in the last hour or so, jet another denunciation from a top republican senator against somebody who could be the nominee in 2024, with mitch mcconnell the minority leader calling out president trump for his suggestion that the constitution or parts of it should be, andite kwoem quoting his words, terminated. >> first let me just say, that anyone seeking the presidency who thinks that the constitution could somehow be suspended or not followed, it seems to me would have a very hard time being sworn in as president of the united states. >> this is the second criticism

in as many weeks from mitch mcconnell after the former president had that dinner with kanye west and nick fuentes. ryan, second time in a week. that said, it is not a surprise that mitch mcconnell is not a fan of donald trump and that goes both ways. that is a two-way street. >> yeah. there is no doubt about that. and what was interesting about what we saw from mitch mcconnell today was that he just walked up to the podium and immediately took the opportunity to denounce what the former -- >> so no question that teed that up. >> yeah. usually we have to bug him about it before he takes that step. but i have to point this out. even though he's pretty clear that he doesn't agree with the stance that donald trump took, he still refused to take that step of saying that if trump ends up being the nominee of the republican party and he's still the front-runner, mcconnell refused to say he wouldn't support him under those circumstances. so that is still a step even though we've seen widespread

condemnation for the two different things that donald trump finds himself in the middle of, first that meeting, that dinner had he had at mar-a-lago for the folks that have anti-semitic beliefs and the suggestion that the constitution should be terminated which he wants the constitution to be terminated in a way to overturn the election that was done correctly in 2020. they still refuse to take that full step of saying this is something that should disqualify him as a candidate for president of the united states. this is as close as mcconnell has come saying that if you don't believe in the constitution, it would make it very difficult to serve as president of the united states but he was pressed again on this idea, if trump is the nominee, will you support him and mcconnell just wouldn't engage on that topic. >> ryan nobles, thank you for everything mitch mcconnell today. let's go out west where colorado prosecutors are firing 300 charges including

first-degree murder and hate crimes against the suspected shooter at a lgbtq plus club last month. five people were kill and 17 others were injured and the suspect opened fire with an ar-15 style gun at the club q there colorado springs. now the district attorney is making it clear they are out to send a message. listen. >> when you file 305 counts in a case, that tells the public, this community and this nation that we're taking this case as serious as we possibly can, meaning we're going to prosecute this case to the fullest extent of the law. >> nbc news correspondent de sanaa charles is following this case. break down the charges and where the case goes next. >> there is 305 charges to be exact. those include ten counts of first-degree murder, 48 counts of bias motivated crimes which essentially in the state of colorado are like hate crimes and then the rest of the crimes, 84 of them are attempted first-degree murder charges.

this is what the district attorney had to say today about those charges. take a listen. >> we think that there is enough evidence to satisfy our burden on bias motivated offenses. we're not going to tolerate actions against community members based on their sexual identity, those types of things, members of that community have been harassed and intimidating and abused for too long. >> reporter: the district attorney there clearly stating his intent. now the suspect faces a life in prison without parole because the state of colorado doesn't have a death penalty. now hallie, there were some people who were wondering whether or not the district attorney would charge hate crimes in this incident because the defense said that the suspect identifying as nonbinary and using they/them pronoun but

the district attorney said this is deserving of the hate crime charges associated with this. hallie. >> this story in colorado. thank you very much into over at the supreme court, justices seem ready to back that web designer who is declining to make wedding sites for same-sex couples. and what is now the latest clash between religious freedoms and lgbtq plus rights. we've been talking about there case because it could have real big implications for both religion freedom and the right of lgbtq plus people in this country. the conservative justices have seemed sympathetic toward the web designer but right now it is not clear how the majority will rule since they haven't laid out a decision. they've just heard orl arguments 24 hours ago. and in that was the president and ceo of the alliance defending freedom. thank you for being on the show with us today. >> thank you for having me. >> let me start off when i asked

the colorado attorney, which you were in the room. you were doing the argument. how do you think it went. >> i think it went well. i think the court recognized that all americans should have the freedom to speak messages that are consistent with their conscious regardless of what side of the aisle or a view on a topic. >> what came up again and gep is where do you draw the line. politico tightmed their piece about this hypotheticals gone wild. i want to play some of the back and forth from some of the justices on this issue. watch. >> however we decide this case, obviously applies to others. >> what is the difference between that and i don't believe black people and white people should get paried? >> don't know that we could say just because we have a religious objection to same-sex marriage in this situation that wouldn't necessarily implicate religious objections to other kinds of situations. >> other kinds of situations she's talking about there,

justice jackson, that go beyond lgbtq plus rights. when it comes to things that are racist or anti-semitic. so where the line here and how do you draw that. >> there is a number of lines that the court is already drawing. lori smith is creating custom speech. it is not premade and she's asked to design custom messages that express ideas that violate her convictions. she has lgbtq clients but it is based on what the message is, not who the person is. i think we could think about the lgbtq website designer would may not want to have to be compelled to speak messages for the catholic church on their views. or a democrat would wouldn't want to write a press conference for a republican. so the issue does transcend this particular issue and it involves all of us and whether the government could tell us what to say. and that is wrong. the first amendment stops the government from doing this. >> in this case we're talking about anti-discrimination law in colorado and the argument has

been made on the other side that if lori smith doesn't want to, she could pull her services out of the public market place and she's made the choice to enter the public market. >> you don't lose your constitutional rights because you sell the art you create. it is one thing if it is premade hitting on a shelf and it is different to impose six figure penalties an jail time on individuals who don't want to create messages that violate their convictions and we think about it, whether we support the biden administration or we support the trump administration, giving the government that kind of power when cultural and political winds could shift so drastically, should terrify all of us. it is not the government's role to tell us what to think and what to say. more speech is the sentence, not less. >> the argument from sort of the other side of is that the government is looking to protect the rights of people that need those rights protected. let me play a little bit for you from what he had to say about this issue that we're talking about here of where is that

line. where are those protections and why their so important. watch. >> we're going to start having to figure out where to draw that line. if someone makes special lattis will they say he won't serve mormons. that could become a reality in this case. >> they saying that is my expressive intent or expressive speech in that artistic endeavor and i don't want to serve more mons. why is that not a out come if the court does rule in your favor. >> serve who is serving lattes should tell you all you need to flow. there is no question that under colorado he's theory they could compel a democrat to have write for a republican. they have admitted that their law applies to speech bright writers to, poets and the soccer

mom created custom signs trying to earn extra money on etsy. this applies to so many categories that particularly in the world that we're living in, giving the government the power to sensor, silence and punish people is something i'm not willing to do and the constitution doesn't allow. it is not just about marriage, it is not just about lori. it is about all of our right to be able to speak freely. >> the justs will make this decision likely in a matter of months. and to be clear, she has not designed a website. this is sort of-i want to say preliminary but hypothetical. it was raised in court yesterday that perhaps the court could rule against you but leave the door open for lori smith to come back if this actually ever came in front of her and came before her. is that something that is -- that would you pursue if it did go that direction. a assume that you could continue to appeal to the court until this matter is resolved. >> lori smith has been in business for years and has

requested requests and hasn't been able to do so. they've been fighting her for six years telling her if she entered the wedding industry and doesn't create messages that violate her convictions that she will violate the law. the whole point of someone being able to challenge an unjustice law before the court imposed a civil penalty is what this case is about. >> thank you very much for being on with us. i know that it is been a busy couple of days for you here in washington. appreciate your time. >> thank you. a lot more to get to, a brand-new report dropping on the baby formula shortage that crisis this year. what it said and what found over at the fod. and plus it might sound like a proposal and police will use robots that could kill during emergencies. we'll talk more about it in a sec.

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least on january 3rd, well, given the majority, that's the first day of new session of congress. joining me is nbc's july tsirkin. you need two 18. kevin mccarthy doesn't have it, but andy biggs shouldn't have it eats in something dramatic changes. >> reporter: yes, kevin mccarthy has officially a race january 3rd but if you look at the chance of biggs winning the speakership himself. a few weeks ago, behind closed doors, house republicans actually did this before, it was biggs against mccarthy, 188 to 31, picked up that sizable chunk of support taking it away from mccarthy who needs at least 218 on the house floor come january. all this does is raises an official challenge for mccarthy. this has been percolating some time now, members of the freedom

caucus explaining to them they're going to put some someone forward, mystery candidate, now biggs slamming mccarthy for attending the state dinner as well. they don't seem strong enough to stand up to the biden administration. this happened in 2014, at that point, mccarthy actually backed off when he received challenges from conservatives. now, vowing to continue the fight until january but it's important when you look at the dynamics in the house they can't really get their agenda, until a speaker is chosen. and if biggs is going to challenge, at least some of those 31 votes come forward and chip away at the votes for mccarthy on the floor. this could be a long series of days, multiple votes, until we actually have a speaker of the house. >> julie tsirkin live on capitol hill. thank you. we'll get to breaking news that we told you about a few minutes that the trump organization criminal tax fraud trial. there is a verdict. a jury has reached a verdict.

it's ron allen outside the courthouse with just about 30 minutes ago. ron, we know the jury has been deliberating 9 1/2 hours just to remind people, this is the criminal tax fraud trial, not implicating mr. trump personally, but his business, the trump organization, with the star witness here, the former cfo allen weisselberg. this is all about the scheme that prosecutors allege happened. a 15-year scheme that could compensate executives. >> reporter: we have a verdict. >> go, what is it? >> reporter: guilty on all counts, we have a verdict, 17 counts just in moments ago, after about ten hours of deliberations. and you're right, halle, this is a case against the trump corporation, two entities of the trump corporation. there were no named individuals. former president donald trump was not named, but certainly, this is his family company. this is his livelihood. this is his business. this is his reputation.

this is all things donald trump, except him being named the defendant in this case, you might say. and the jury decided they were guilty. the trump organization was guilty of a -- what the prosecution described as a culture of tax fraud and business record manipulation. that stretched some 15 years, essentially, what you had was the top executives of this corporation, especially allen weisselberg, whose name we've heard a lot, who was the chief financial officer of the trump organization for many, many years. his relationship with the family stretched back generations to former president donald trump's father he worked with many, many years ago. he had pleaded guilty in another case to 15 counts of tax fraud. and in exchange for a shortened prison sentence which would be about five months, and he testified against the trump corporation, saying that this was something that he did on his own. he did -- he tried not to implicate the corporation or any other individuals in his

testimony but he was not able to do that, you might argue, because the jury essentially is saying that this was not a rogue operation. this was something that was widespread throughout the company. that the company was involved in, that there were records that were fabricated to try to cover up what they were doing. essentially, weisselberg and others were being paid perks. luxury apartments, vehicles. tuition for his grandkids' schooling which totaled hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. and they were being paid off the books. in other words, they weren't paying taxes on this income. on these benefits. so they were essentially defrauding the irs. defrauding new york state department of tax. and the taxpayers living -- all of us, generally, is what the charge was, to the tune of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. the company also benefited because they didn't pay payroll taxes on this revenue, you might say.

so, they're able to conceal and hide hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars, along the way, over 15 years. now, the penalty is ore. >>. >> right. >> reporter: is a fine of essentially $1.7 million. however, there's no jail time for any of the corporate entities. however, as we were saying a while ago, this is part of a larger three-year investigation of the trump organization by the manhattan district attorney's office. the continuation of this focuses squarely on donald trump as a businessman and his business practices. there's been a lot of speculation whether or not that investigation has been dormant or not. there were a couple prosecutors who resigned earlier this year, saying there was evidence, adequate evidence to excite the former president. the d.a. here tight-lipped and newly elected alan bragg, has said he's continuing the

investigation. he has not said if it's on and off, earlier this week, he hired a new prosecutor who has a record of, in the new york attorney general's office of going after donald trump in the past. leading to speculation that this criminal investigation might be getting more energy. but, again, that's speculation at this point. but.bottom line, today is that the trump corporation has been found guilty of widespread systemic tax fraud over a long period of time, over 15 years. and the prosecution said that donald trump, the former president, was aware of all of this. and didn't say he participated in it, but essentially, implicated him in this. although, again, he has not been named. >> that's right. >> reporter: in this case, directly as a participant. president trump, we've heard from him a lot on social media saying essentially this is a continuation of the witch hunt. that this is politically

motivated that this is a simple tax case that is a motivated hit job against him, continuing the narrative we've heard from trump for many, many years but that's where we are today, guilty on all counts, halle. >> let me pull out one piece of information that you said, ron, i think people want to know and i want to make sure it's clear here. the penalty now, guilty on all counts. we're working on a graphic here. there were a number of them including scheme to defraud. criminal tax fraud, falsifying business records, conspiracy, et cetera. penalty is $1.6 million in fines. and as you have laid out here, the potential it could make it harder for the business to get loans, et cetera. that is what the trump business faces. i know you're literally out of the courtroom, ron, i don't want to put you on the spot but we don't know the date on the final determination of this? >> reporter: no i don't know exactly how the mechanics will work. >> okay.

>> reporter: but the fine is significant, the fine is significant as a monetary penalty. but it's more significant, perhaps, it could be argued as just saying, as branding this organization a criminal enterprise. saying that they were conducting this business in a criminal way, for 15 years. and defrauding the taxpayers of the united states, and of the state of new york in particular, for a long period of time. and, again, the prosecutor in his closing arguments really made a point of saying that former president donald trump was aware that all of this was going on. >> ron allen live for us in new york city. nicolle wallace is goading to have more on "deadline" in just a second. guilty on all counts a decision made by the jury after roughly 9 1/2, to 10 hours of deliberation. you can see guilty on all

counts. $1.6 million in a potential fine here that will be likely handed down against the trump organization, although it is unclear when that will officially, formally happen. we do know that former president trump himself was not personally implicated in this, but a star witness, former cfo allen weisselberg played a prominent role in this. that's it for the coverage here on msnbc. it's going to happen in 35 seconds when nicolle wallace picked up the coverage. we'll see you tomorrow. meantime, enjoy the rest of the afternoon on msnbc. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it is a big news day, it's 4:00 and new york, big breaking news to start with. it has major political and legal implications, donald trump's family business, the trump organization, has just been found guilty on all counts in the trial in new york on tax fraud charges. prosecutors had alleged a massive 15-yearg