here that will be likely handed down against the trump organization, although it is unclear when that will officially, formally happen. we do know that former president trump himself was not personally implicated in this, but a star witness, former cfo allen weisselberg played a prominent role in this. that's it for the coverage here on msnbc. it's going to happen in 35 seconds when nicolle wallace picked up the coverage. we'll see you tomorrow. meantime, enjoy the rest of the afternoon on msnbc. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it is a big news day, it's 4:00 and new york, big breaking news to start with. it has major political and legal implications, donald trump's family business, the trump organization, has just been found guilty on all counts in the trial in new york on tax fraud charges. prosecutors had alleged a massive 15-year long fraud

scheme orchestrated by the trump org's top executives. the jury in this trial deliberated for a little more than one day before dieding to convict trump of all charges. susanne craig will join us. we start with hear lipman, former dispute assistant attorney general and former prosecutor, former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation, nbc legal analyst, andrew wiseman is here as well. andrew, the legal implications and the political meat being examined in the same moments. this is the brand that trump rode to the presidency. it was a trump helicopter that landed in iowa and wowed republican congressgoers. he took this identity as a successful business leader all the way to the white house. turns out the whole thing was a fraud. talk about the legal

determination today, i want to read it to the viewers. these were the charges brought against the trump corp. scheme, conspiracy in the fourth degree, criminal tax fraud in the third degree, criminal tax fraud in the fourth degree. falsifying tax records, guilty of all of those. charges brought against the payroll organization. schemed to defraud in the first degree, criminal tax fraud in the third degree and about four more, guilty on every charge that was brought. >> well, i think there's something that is important for people to know about this charge and the contents today. the most important thing is that the jury was not technically required to find that donald j. trump was part of the conspiracy. it was two corporations that were on trial, they were trump organizations. and to find them guilty, the

manhattan prosecutors said that their theory was that the two control people were the cfo and the controller. and if either of them were guilty, you just impute automatically their knowledge and intent, if it was done in part, to benefit, and did in fact in part benefit the company. so the issue of donald trump, whether he knew or didn't know or was part of the fraud wasn't something that technically had to be found by the jury. and they weren't asked to do that. but there's a big however which is that in fact the proof at trial, as the government said, in its summation, included proof that donald trump in fact knew of this wide-ranging, as you said, 15-year conspiracy, that was ongoing in the two trump organizations. and, frankly, the idea that it would have been ongoing for 15

years in a small company and it was happening behind his back, when his own company and he were benefitting from it which seems, you know, laughable. i think that's part of the reason that the jury came back, you know, so quickly here. in this case. >> harry litman, what does a company for whom two of its divisions, these were charges brought against the trump corporation and the trump payroll corporation. and, again, a jury has found those corporations guilty on nine charges, nine charges against the trump organization, eight charges against the payroll corporation. this was a 15-year fraudulent scheme to falsify business records, to compensate executives and not put those compensation packages on the books. they were caught doing that. this was, i think, what we all learned, it's described as a paper case largely. but there was also testimony. tell me about the implications for trump's family business, and

these convictions today? >> okay. so, it's really hurting. the actual sentence against the corporation will be fines, but as much as, it will be up to the judge that could be completely disabled. but i want to the stick with andrew's however in answering your question because there are ways that this really does have implications beyond the verdict for trump and the family. first, it tends to put wind in the sails and emboldened attorney general, not the d.a., the attorney general of new york who has a civil suit against the trump organization that is putting a monetary and already basically taking control. this will make her range of remedies, i think, broader. second, it will, i think, stiffen the spine of alvin bragg, the same d.a. who is just now rebeginning to look at the criminal case that he threw away before, involving stormy daniels, michael cohen and the

like. and, third, just on the evidence in the trial, not only was the trump stuff part of it, but it was actually joined at closing by the defense. in other words, you can see this, and law authorities will see this as a likely determination by a jury of trump's involvement in the overall scheme. >> let me just follow up with you, harry litman, and i want to bring in susanne craig, does it say something about the strength of the evidence? is that how it strengthens the other examinations by tish james' office and bragg's office? >> yes, bragg is worried about going after the king if you can't kill him, as it were. in that sense, it stiffen the spine, but also as a criminal trial, beyond a reasonable doubt, have they bought the

claim this was just weisselberg on his own, presumably, they would have come in with not guilty. but they came in with guilty, but quickly, as andrew said. this is the best mock jury exercise ever for a criminal trial. you have a real jury coming in quickly and persuaded. >> susanne craig of the "the new york times" who has brought to us the reading and viewing public probably the movie expansive reporting and understanding of what trump and his father, frankly, years and decades of funky/unethical legal practices has looked like. your reaction to today's verdict. guilty on nine charges against the trump corp. and eight against the trump payroll corporation? >> yeah, i have to say, the first thing you think of it does strengthen the case now as other indications go forward. i think this is just going to embolden people.

when you look at it as a student of all of this, it's something to see, allen weisselberg has been on the trump organization for 15 years just to have seen him on the stand to have to testify against the trump organization was really something. and it came back so quickly. you know, just sitting in the courtroom for so many days and listening to the testimony, the idea, and it's interesting, because you go back and forth, when you're listening to the testimony and the idea that allen weisselberg did this just for allen weisselberg and it wasn't under any other larger scheme is what the defense was arguing, you know, it really started to fall apart when you started to hear all of the other executives that were getting -- you know, one of the things that were at issue in the trial were the one-off payments they were getting, these consulting fees. you have to remember, you and i have talked about it, these payments went to donald trump's children, ivanka got them and we

believe both eric and don junior had got them. that may now be on the table for alvin bragg. alvin bragg, we know he backed off and he backed off charging donald trump in this case. but he's now brought in extra fire power to start looking at charges again. and you just have to continue to keep your eye on what's going on with the attorney general. that case is a $215 million case. it's a civil case. that is going to hurt if it goes against donald trump. right now, he's looking at this as $1.5 million, $2 million fine which is no small change. and it's not tax deductible. but that one is just huge. i think it's wind in everybody's sails here. >> susanne, i want to pick up in something that you alluded to it's something that came up in tom winter's report and in

cohen's testimony, that's trump's everything last minutia, especially when it came to his money he was purportedly famously cheap and paying his executive is not something that he loved to micromanage, that seemed to be finalized in the closing days in closing arguments. >> right. >> by prosecutors and defense attorneys. why and what are we to make of that? >> well, it was striking to listen to the testimony. you just can't have it both kay aways. you don't know how much of that was in the mind of the jury because, obviously, you know, they're trying to make a decision based on the facts in the court. but they're not oblivious to the world. and they all had to talk, initially, what their thoughts were about donald trump. they know a lot about him. i'm sure they've heard about his other frauds, be it the charity, the trump university. i think when i sat in the court, he wants to have it both ways, he wants to both be the micro manager. but in this case, he's the guy

sitting at the desk autographing magazines and didn't really know what was going on. i mean, it was kind of laughable, to be honest, from where i was, in the cheap seats. >> and you were never in the cheap seats, susanne. you know this story better than anybody. i want to ask you one more question and then i'm going to bring in somebody inside the company. the first report i read was a story about frank trump and how he evaded tax liability. trump has done that walking up to the illegal sort of line but there's a lot of sort of low-brow scamming. >> right. >> and i wonder if being found guilty was pushing -- i mean, if you could just compare the tax evasion carried out by the father to now the criminal tax fraud carried out by the son, what's your read on that? >> well, he does go up to the line, and he's crossed it. and we've actually showed that in our reporting, some of it

goes beyond the statute of limitations. but i really think what was going on here, they were just engaging in tax fraud that probably would never have been caught if he hadn't become the president. this is low-ball stuff. you know, let's issue a 1099 so we can avoid a little bit of medicare tax. things like that. let's do these consulting payments. and let's give a car to somebody and hope it doesn't get caught. screw up, you know, we won't have the right taxing paid on it. and i think that's the sort of stuff that's probably prevalent in companies and just because everybody does it, doesn't make it legal, and that's what donald trump found out today. >> no one is going anywhere but former trump attorney michael cohen is here. michael cohen, you've been correct in a lot of your predictions about the company and the scrutiny by alvin bragg's office and alluded to with tish james' office that he

would be found guilty. your reaction? >> good to speak to you, good day for the country, bad day for donald trump. despite the quick and accurate determination by the jury, convicting the trump organization on all counts. here's the problem, once again, the man behind all the decisions and all of the action at the company escapes culpability. what shocks me is that, again, weisselberg has been less than truthful, despite the potential consequences of a lengthy prison sentence. and that was part of his agreement. he fell on the sword. and donald allowed it. >> michael, why does -- why did he do that? and will alvin bragg, if he decides to examine these consultancy payments that susanne is talking about that

were paid to ivanka and others, will he face additional scrutiny and criminal exposure? >> look, i've been saying this for a long time. i believe so. and i believe that alvin bragg has just brought on another heavyweight, in order to look at additional potential prosecutions. this one against donald himself as well as his family. >> and mr. bragg had a heavyweight, mr. pomerantz and miss dunn. what do you think he found in this new heavyweight that he didn't have in them? >> i don't think you can get better than both mark pomerantz and kerry dunn. i think this individual is also of equal status. i just think it had to do with timing for some unknown reason. and, again, it took place around seven weeks into alvin bragg's

tenure. he was ready for the fight. maybe now he is. we all have to wait and see. >> michael cohen, harry litman said mr. bragg's office may be examining things like the stormy daniels payment. i know you have spent time sharing what you know with robert mueller's prosecutors, with attorney general james. and with alvin bragg's office as well. is there anything you can tell us that you shared with them that should make donald trump nervous? >> well, the fact that i spoke with them more than a dozen times i know has made donald very nervous. and without getting into the specifics, i don't think it's right for the case, especially as it looks like there might be a case being brought. i can tell you he should be very uncomfortable. alvin bragg looking at this new attorney matt colangelo, he

really should be quite concerned. >> michael cohen, i'll give you one last word, what should people take from today, end of the beginning, beginning of the end, of trump and his businesses? >> well, it's certainly the end of the trump organization. i think this is also going to make the attorney general tish james' case easier. but, yes, this is what i would refer to as the death spiral for the trump organization. >> michael cohen, nobody puts it like you do, thank you for jumping on the phone and talking to us during the breaking news coverage. >> my pleasure always. >> susanne, let me come back to you, some bread crumbs, michael cohen has been forthcoming. he did it before congress under

oath. he faced answers, provided answers, and it's a constant thing, on our show, and in our reporting it feels like it takes so long for the wheels of justice to grind that out and to either corroborate those documents. i know so much of your work is corroborating what we hear in the ecosystem with documentation. i wonder if you can pick up on what michael cohen is talking about, should trump be nervous? >> i think he should be nervous. i'm not willing to call the end of the trump organization and i don't think this is going to spell it. i think it was earlier, about the macro, you know, effectiveness how it will, in terms of other investigations, right now, they're going to appeal this. and i think there's a good discussion to have what does a guilty verdict like this mean for a corporation? you know, what is known -- the lawyers call it collateral consequence.

and it can affect, you know, their ability to get a loan. they may have to pay higher interest rates. if this was a huge publicly traded corporation, this would be a much bigger issue for donald trump. he is privately held and he has moved a lot of his lending to places where we don't know the interest rates he's paying and the terms he has. i would imagine part of it was done potentially in place of this. in some cases, municipalities won't do business with corporations that have a verdict like this against them. again, i'm not sure that applies to him. i think the biggest issue is going to be the political theater here and just other investigations that are going on, rather than an immediate sort of trump organization gone. i mean, they are doing business. they have a lot of company -- they have a lot of businesses that just aren't going to be affected by this. i'm certain they'll appeal this. >> andrew weissmann, i'm sure that is the correct business

analysis. donald trump never really paid attention to his businesses as he did to his brand. and his brand, as of today, an hour ago, guilty, among other things, a scheme to defraud. criminal tax fraud. falsifying business records over and over and over and over again. nine convictions against the trump corporation. eight convictions against the trump payroll corporation. with two more investigations, specifically, into his businesses. gaining steam, according to all of the expert advice available to us. >> and, remember, for all of the crimes that the trump organization and trump himself benefited, these are not just some people, you know, way below him doing a crime that technically the company is guilty of. these are senior people committing crimes that were for benefitting donald trump personally. and his name was all over documents approving the scheme, as the prosecution said.

i think a really interesting point, i'd be interested in what susanne thinks what's going to happen to allen weisselberg. if you remember, the manhattan d.a.'s office really wanted to know -- get his information. they did not get that. he was called as a witness like anyone else. he did not fully cooperate. and in trial he didn't implicate at all donald trump. i think he still awaits sentencing. and the judge pointedly said that if he the judge thinks that allen weisselberg lied on the stand, the deal that he got is off the table, and he could face anywhere up to 15 years. in addition, in the tish james civil suit there is a direct suit that allen weisselberg committed insurance fraud as part of the trump organization. so it's really interesting, that is something, i'm putting my

prosecutor's hat on, they have a number of ways that they can really increase the pressure on weisselberg to fully cooperate now against donald trump. and an upcoming investigation. >> susanne, you've been invoked. i'll let you try to answer that. what happens to allen weisselberg? >> thanks, andrew, on that. i think, i don't know, we're going to see, but the proof may be in the pudding in that they got the verdict and the outcome that they wanted to be. and he did not do potentially as much time that he was facing. looks like he had five months that he was looking at it, if he did tell the truth, but that's going to be adjudicated in a few weeks. he's got a hearing and we'll see. the other thing i just wanted to mention, i think it's really important in this, another agency, another body that is, i'm sure, looking at this is the irs. there's a lot of tax fraud,

apparently, that went on that we know, has a guilty verdict. and i'm sure they're going to be coming in after this. i'm sure they're already looking but this is going to strengthen that. it's a bit of a black box. we don't know but i also think it's important to remember, in addition to all of the current stuff they're looking at, donald trump is facing an audit that if it went against him would exhaust him more than $100 million. we know that was live as of a year or two ago. we don't know if it's been settled. that's another thing. we keep trying to dig out and report on that to find out what the outcome is. but the irs has got to be in there and all over this. >> you would think. harry litman, i wanted to share from you, we just got a statement in from district attorney alvin bragg. to susanne's point, sentencing is january 13th. this is about greed and

cheating, the manhattan organization is above the law. for years the trump tax corporation got away with a scheme that awarded high-level executives with lavish perks and compensation, while intentionally concealing that from the tax authorities to avoid paying taxing. today's verdict holding these companies accountable for the criminal scheme in connection to chief financial officer allen weisselberg who pled guilty and testified at trial and will go to serve time in jail. he wants to hank the senior, gary fishman, the attorney general's director of the crime strike force and special adviser to the criminal justice division for their continues partnership and collaboration. to susanne's point, he also thanks the new york department of taxation and finance. and the new york city department of finance. lots of tentacles still left to be unearthed, it sounds, harry.

>> that's true. and a deep breath and a happy day for bragg himself. you know, everything in there is right. and yesterday, there's an aspect, a real sort of chiseling here. in some ways this is doing the sort of small stuff. and we can bet there's a culture of even bigger stuff. but on the sort of cohen versus susanne, will this cripple or kill the organization? in terms of the sentence, it certainly won't be a mortal blow, but this has to be evaluated next to what tish james can do in terms of taking it over. and even potentially being debarred, dealing with the government. so at the very best, the trump organization limps ahead a real sort of a shell of its former self. and that, as you said, repeatedly goes straight to the brand of the man for whom brand is everything. >> everything. susanne craig, we're glad to get

your knowledge. thank you for jumping on. >> harry and andrew stick around. when we come back, a major announcement from the chair of the january 6 select committee that his panel expects to make criminal referrals to the justice department that could include the man at the very center of the plot to overturn the 2020 election. the twice impeached ex-president himself. harry dunn will be here, one of several offices to receive the congressional gold medal today for protecting the nation on january 6th. we'll have a chance to talk to him about the ceremony at the u.s. capitol and holding everyone there accountable for their actions. and of course, it's an election, the republican party, has come to define what that party is today. it's a stark choice for voters there. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break.

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it has been the question hanging over all of its work. and now the january 6th select committee appears to be on the verge of this momentous decision. chairman bennie thompson telling reporters today that the panel now expects to make criminal referrals to the justice department and that there is, quote, general agreement among members of the committee that referrals will be issued. who will be referred to doj? and how many referrals the committee will ultimately make, those are still questions at this point. a spokesperson for the committee says the panel will make decisions about specifics in the days ahead. but the decision to actually

refer people to doj caps off a sprawling comprehension investigation into donald trump's plot to overturn the 2020 election leaving no doubt who is responsible for january 6, none other than the disgraced president himself. "the new york times" prints this, quote, a subcommittee of four lawyers on the committee, representatives, cheney, raskin, lofgren and schiff have studied whether or not to issue criminal referrals for the justice department for president trump and his allies. among the top charges they have considered is conspiracy to defraud the united states. and they have gathered a mountain of evidence that they have already presented to the public in a series of blockbuster hearings. here is some of that evidence. >> even his lawyer john eastman

admitted in front of president trump that this would break the law violating the electoral count act. >> did john eastman ever admit, as far as you know in front of the president, that his proposal would violate the electoral count? >> i believe he did on the 4th. >> did you tell the president in that second call that you supported him, that you voted for him, but that you were not going to do anything illegal for him? >> i did, sir. >> and when he finished discussing what he planned on doing, i said [ bleep ] congratulations, you just admitted the first step or act you take as attorney general would be committing and violating 6c, you're clearly the right person for this job. >> i heard the president say something i don't care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me, take the f'ing mags away. let the people in, take the

f'ing mags away. >> so many criming, so long as time. let's bring in jackie alemany. harry and andrew are still with us. jackie, it wasn't clear, you've been watching all of this unfold and "the new york times," where chairman thompson revealed that criminal referrals would be made. it's one of the questions hanging over the committee's work well, really, since liz cheney read from the federal statute about obstructing the federal proceeding. >> yeah, actually, the way other members were skirting around chairman thompson's comments today around capitol hill as they were all in attendance at an event honoring the service of police officers that protected the capitol on january 6th was reminiscent of sort of earlier times where chairman thompson did divulge that the committee

would be investigatings area as december '21, when the committee was pretty new in this work and just starting on thin endeavor to interview thousands of people and putting together a massive report that they're now in the process of putting together. but we were able to catch up with chairman thompson after he first made the comments. he did sort of reiterate that the panel was in agreement that there were going to be criminal referrals, but they're having a meeting this evening, that's going to be virtual, where they'll probably decide, or at least decide the steps forward on who exactly they are going to refer to the doj in these proceedings. and how they're going -- how this process is ultimately going to work. as we've said, countless times on this program, criminal referrals from congress are symbolic, they hold no legal weight. but they do make headlines, and

today helped steer the direction. and they certainly matter for the sake of public opinion. and a lot of the work of this committee has been pretty successful in pushing certain things in the public discourse. and revealing new information that is now landing in the hands of the department of justice. so, again, we're just going to be waiting now on who the actual people are, whom the committee will make criminal referrals for, to the doj. and, again, you know, what exactly going to be criminally referred for. >> andrew weissmann, the select committee criminally referred donald trump, for example, hypothetically speaking, for obstruction of an official proceeding. and the massive fraud crimes for which i believe lofgren chaired the hearing when all of that was put in the arena.

lisa monaco who is a by-the-book prosecutor, and somebody who is not oblivious to all of the committee has attested for months by an ex-president. what does she say? how was that meeting run? >> i think there are three points i'd make about this, so, first, a criminal referral of donald trump, in connection with the many, many different aspects of the january 6 investigation, i think has -- it does have symbolic effect. but it has actual effect. i've received these criminal referrals, and i can tell you, although at the end of the day, it is the department of justice that makes the decision, you take those incredibly seriously. it is also a way to gather evidence, because if you get a referral from congress, you make sure that you know exactly what it is that congress thinks and what it is basing its conclusions on. so, you tend to get a lot of access from congress to support

that. so, i do think it has a real -- it has real weight, and it will be looked at incredibly closely, by lisa, and, of course, she -- if it falls within as it likely will jack smith's purview, she will then just refer it. in the same way i was in the special counsel, we got referrals as well that were referred ultimately to us from congress. even though they were addressed to the department of justice. i think the second part is it is going to be incredibly interesting to see who else, if anyone, is referred. and that's where i think it may have more than a symbolic effect, because if you remember, mark meadows, dan scavino were referred for contempt. and that seemed to sort of die in the vine. and i'll be interested to see whether the committee goes beyond donald trump. i know that there's been reports

of liz cheney wanted to keep everything very focused on donald trump. that will be interesting to see -- and that goes to my third point which is, there's been a lot of pundits like me and other people inside the beltway talking about why even have referrals, if it's just symbolic. and the department's already doing these investigations. and i think the answer is it's really important that congress does referrals in the same way it has in the past. i've received them numerous prosecutors received them, when something important is happening. and it's really important for congress to be following its own internal rules and referring when they think there's a crime that's committed. i think if they don't do that, then you're going to get the opposite effect. you're going to have people saying well why didn't they refer? didn't they think this was criminal? so, i think they should follow their standard procedures. and that will then put the ball in the justice department to

examine closely what the facts and law are that led congress to make that determination. and then, of course, let's be clearer the department will make its own conclusions. >> harry, i wanted to ask you, something sort of adjacent to andrew's points and that is about the evidence that we know has not yet been transmitted to doj. and i mean, it's possible that we don't know everything that has come over. but it's clear that not everything has been sort of dumped over to doj. it's not clear whether that causes consternation or not. but i wonder if you think they were waiting for these referrals to amass and present the evidence and are waiting to see who they were going to refer to try to shape either the priorities or the attention or the focus of the evidence they gathered? i know that the members have been very blunt about believing that some of the secret service had lied. it's clear that part of the investigation was very live and active up to last week.

what do you make of when the committee and whether this is tied to the committee's decision of how much and when to transmit all of their evidence? >> so, that precise point i think it's a little hard to say, i think there were independent reasons having to do with kind of relationships and even sort of undercurrents of mistrust that led the committee to say we're going to turn it over to doj at the last moment. but your point is very well taken. because we've only seen the parts that the committee wanted us to see, carefully and choreographed effective hearings. if there's perjury, and thompson said they're considering it and resistance, that's going to be in nine-tenths of the iceberg that we haven't seen yet. so, i think that's part of what they're considering, i can imagine, for example, ornato, sand maybe even eastman and clark, people who didn't

testify, if there's a case to be made against them it probably involves some of the evidence we didn't see. i just want to second what andrew said about trump himself, though. first, that foursome, lofgren, schiff, raskin and jamie, you have to think, it's hard to imagine one or more referrals that don't include trump. and as to its impact, as jackie said, they'll consider on its own. but there is a crossing of the rubicon, sort of thunderbolt of it, that i think takes everyone's breath away and makes it more plausible, palpable to make it for smith to recommend it. and i think in that sense, it's meaningful beyond the normal kind of recommendation aspect of a referral from congress. >> no one's going anywhere but we are very, very pleased to add to our conversation u.s. capitol

police officer harry dunn. he received the congressional gold medal this morning for his work on defending the capitol on january 6th. it's so nice to get to talk to you. i feel like we have hours of conversations ahead of us about everything that you've added to our understanding of that day, to what you and your colleagues went through. and what you did that day, protecting not just the capitol, but our democracy. so little accountability to the people that you pointed your attention to the first hearing to the select committee, the people behind it. so, i wonder what the mix of emotions is for you today. >> hey, it's good to be back with you again, yeah, we could talk with you for hours, you're right. but i wasn't focused on a mixed emotions today. i wasn't -- this day was, when you think about the congressional gold medal like last night and into this morning, i looked at some of the recipients of it, there's 170-plus recipients of the gold medal, just looking at some the

names on that list, and to be added to that list as an organization with the u.s. capitol police and the metropolitan police department that's been an honor. i talked to speaker pelosi afterwards, and i told her about the names on that list, she said, no, they're on that list with you. so that kind of made me look at it a little differently. i'm not giving anybody else the ability to steal my thunder, so to speak. you know, what an incredible honor that we had bestowed upon us today by congress. i'm just so thankful and humbled about it. >> i agree with her, by the way, that they're lucky to be on that list with you. i wonder how you feel about the fact that the majority of americans, in part of not just what you did on january 6th, but what you've done every day since then, talking to us, talking to the country about what that was like, and what it feels like to see not everybody enthusiastic about getting to the bottom of

it. i think that's as positive that i can put on it. i wonder how you feel about the country and midterms saying, yeah, democracy matters a whole hell of a lot to me. do you understand that you deserve some of the credit for that? >> i'll take it. and really, though, you know, transparency breeds accountability. and i think the more you talk about thing and be transparent about, you know, everything that's going on. and i've been transparent about my emotions. and the facts of the day, from testifying in court to the january 6th committee. and, you know, just being transparent, telling your story. i think that it can't help but breed accountability. just continues to be open and honest about everything that's going on. and the more people -- i said on this program before, there isn't this magic saying or anything. everybody just needs to stay --

the more people talk about what's going on, the more people that say it, the more people that accept it becomes the norm. that's what we need to continue to do is to talk about it, and not just treat as taboo. >> brian sicknick's brother did not shake mitch mcconnell's extended hand. there's still a lot of pain around the republicans, not just unwillingness to have transparency or accountability, but mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy killed the bipartisan commission to investigate the january 6th attack. and that's why speaker pelosi appointed the select committee with two republicans who are on it. but they're out of their jobs. they lost their seats for participating in this work. what is the sort of bluntest way to talk about the work that remains to be done and the party that doesn't want to be part of understanding specifically

donald trump's role in inciting the violence on january 6th? >> i don't know if more people don't really want to understand it or even talk about it. i think everybody wants to understand what happens but, you know, when you are confronted with something that doesn't make you look good. or something that you've thrown your weight behind feels, so you're not going to say, yeah that was me, that was my failure. so i get people's reluctance to talk about a failure, so to speak. but with the sicknick family, they made their decision. and a lot of people react in a lot of different ways. there was a lot of different emotions that were in that room today. it was almost surreal i think is the best way i can describe it, surreal. >> yeah. >> that chief contee spoke about that was the first time that some of those officers had been back to the capitol. and he referenced the batons

beating on the shields and metal pipes and you could smell the tear gas. it literally was so papalable, i could taste it, like you could feel that tear gas right there. it was just such a hallowing moment that just being in that room, kind of alone, just -- you know, it was just -- i didn't want to get into the -- i'm not letting anybody steal this from me, like this joy that i feel. this was actually an amazing historical day. and you know, everything else is working itself out. everybody had a job to do, you know, when this comes to this. i'm just doing my part. i don't have a specific carved out role, i'm just telling my story and saying what's on my mind. however there are people in congress, the people in the justice department, elected officials that have a specific role, i meaner that's their job. and i'll leave that up to them. while putting pressure on them, as a concerned american patriot.

>> i'm going to make -- i mean, there's something here with what you're saying, about not letting anyone steal your joy. to say you deserve it is the understatement of the century. so, i am going to ask you, though, to come back. i'd love to have a conversation. you've been a voice for this day, for what you and your colleagues went through. and for how you're doing today. and i'd love to have that conversation with you another time. but today, you know, from the bottom of all of our hearts, thank you. and congratulations. and to speaker pelosi's point, everybody else is now lucky to be that list of recipients of this medal with you. thank you. >> thank you, i appreciate you. let's do that. let's talk sometime. >> okay. all right. you know, we'll call you before i get off the set. >> i know. i know. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. talk to you soon. up next for us, the subpoenas from the special prosecutor jack smith are out

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and now that we're able to, i'm sorry, no, i'm not fatigued. polls close from today was a wet and cold election day in georgia that followed days of record-breaking turnout among early voters there. "the new york times" reports earlier, fulton county, the state's most populated county said none of its 249 polling precincts had wait times longer than 30d minutes. that's a stark contrast from last week when some in the atlanta area waited more than two hours to cast their ballots. as for what that means for the candidates, "the times" adds this, "tquote. democratic election modelers believe mr. warnock may have built a large lead, a lead as large as 8 percentage points in early pvoting. i if that is the case, mr. walker

could need to win as much as 60% of the election day votes to catch up. not impossible, but a high bar. no matter what the outcome of today's election history will be made, georgia will elect its first ever black senator to a full term in the u.s. senate. in our entire country's history, there have only been 11 black en senators. but for many, this moment is also a bittersweet one. more reporting in "the new york times" finds this. quote, in conversations with more than two dozen black voters across georgia, many said they did not see mr. walker who has taken a w conciliatory approacho matters of race as representing the interests of black people. far more than a victory for racial representation, they casp the election in terms of now familiar political stakes.mi a chance to keep a republican backed byli donald trump from gaining power and working to reverse policies they care y about. senator warnock expressed the choice before georgians while speaking to our colleague joy

reid last night. >> the people of georgia deservf a serious candidate. and that's why i believe in a state that's not known to be a split ticket state, people are making theop choices that they' making because, look, this race at this point given my opponent, this race is not even about republican versus democrat, red versus blue, right versus left. it's right versus wrong. and i thinkht people see that. >> wow. t that's where we begin our coverage today with some of our favorite w reporters and friend. msnbc correspondent trymaine lee is live for us at a get out the vote event across the street from ave polling location in atlanta. joining us here at the table, democratic strategist basil at hunter college. michigan's secretary of state jocelyn benson is here. my colleague alicia menendez is here. she is the host of msnbc's "american voices." let me start with you, trymaine.

tell me what you're hearing and seeing. >> after the marathon during the general election and the sprint to the runoff, there was the sprint about enthusiasm and excitement. i don't know if you canbo e see behind me, this has been going all day long. organizers and voting rights. you see this. they are getting busy. they're making sure that folks s -- if you don't know wh the di is, there is a party at the polls. so many people, certainly there are policy concerns. and it's clarity about who they want to vote for. it's about more than policy issues, about reproductive rights and health care and the economy. it'slt bigger than that. now i spoke to a bunch of voters today about what drove them to the polls, the mission they're on, and here's what they had to say.po we don't have -- we don't have the sound? any way, what you would have heard -- >> we'll find it. go ahead. >> no, they're so driven. you talk about the difference between these two candidates where they see one man, raphael

warnock for the most part carrying the traditions of dr. king andng john lewis at the he of the ebenezer baptist church. and they see the other herschel walker as carrying for donald trump. even though there are divides, there is an embarrassment, a shame. they said time and again to a person older, younger is that the gopge thinks so little of black people that this is the best blackth candidate they cou produce, that they thought would shave off black support and then plant a narrative about black men not being plugged into this. but all day long there have been blackhe men, black women, young and old who have been bringing their children outve hoare, jus to be a part of this day because it'sf not lost on them the stas of the moment. >> trymaine, i think we might havenk robbed your sound from y and played to it bump in the hour. but iitp heard a voter say "i not fatigued." there is so much asked of georgia voters. they're asked to vote in a general. they're asked to learn new rules. even though theea republican

governor and republican secretary of states swore up and down there was no fraud, they passed an anti-fraud law. they're asked to come out and vote again in a runoff. it's remarkable and moving to hear them say "we are not fatigued." just talk about the sophistication of the georgia voter. >> i tell you what, they've been here before. there are probably a few places in this country that have the robust voting apparatus. all kinds of organizations touching people who are hard to reach in rural communities, in the heart of the black community. there is a big concern about voter suppression. and folks say look at early t voting. there is no suppression here.ea today at this polling place that was pretty busy all day. the last hour, about 20, 25 h people, we counted them who camt out and they were turned away. they said we voted here for years. now you h have the wrong precin. they vote here in the general election in november, but then they were turned away, including an 82-year-old woman, another gentleman in thean wheelchair.

i asked is this frustrating? you got to do what you have to do. so they got in their cars and figured out where they had to go. this is dozens of people who had thepe wrong place. that's the kind of thing. imagine that it's 20 here and 20 somewhere else and 100 in another county what that could do. and that wast always the big fear, a that by a thousand cuts you can really change and reshape the trajectory of the whole election. >> especially in a runoff that was this close in a general.ec trymaine, i want to ask you to say a little more about something you said when you first came on the air, about the feelings about herschel walker as this really cynical move by republicans. >> well, it's concerning on one hand whennc you hear clear poli points, a man who seems dignified, raphael warnock, a man of faith. and then you have the allegations on the other side about not just the hypocrisy around providing funds for abortions, but then supporting a nationwide ban, but also talking

about you're a man of god, but there are o allegations of assat against women. that is really concerning. but in any other circumstance, you think of the nearly 2,000 people who served in congress, you mentioned earlier, only 11 have been african american. of those were during the reconstruction era. so the fact that under different circumstances with perhaps a different candidate, two black men in georgia, this former heart of the confederacy here vying for a seat in the senate would be a big historic deal.ri but on the other hand, you have folks that are ashamed to be associated. people associate blackness and what african american is to this man, herschel walker. >> herschel walker hasn't done r ton of campaigning, or at least compared to his opponent he has done far less campaigning. what is the walker sort of closing message as far as you've been able to figure out? >> well, the last few days, we heard him talk a lot about pronouns, right.ut we heard him talk about werewolves and vampires. that's part of the problem a foa lot of people.

at the very least, if you trust conservativing to be who they fi are, they have solid speaking points about faith and what should be taught in schools and at least critical race theory, something folks can grasp on to. but he seems to be on the fringes of even that message. so there hasn't been much. even he showed up at a football game. herschel walker was a great football player, but didn't even speak. he came out, photo op and went back in theho bus. they think is very telling about his game plan the last few days. >> i think it's what mitch mcconnell described i as a candidate quality problem, trymaine lee. thank you very much for starting us off. we're grateful to you for your reporting and foryo being where you are.er it's great to see everybody outu there. thank you so much. basil, trymaine got right to it how do you feel? >> first of all, i feel very good about this. which actually changed in the last two minutes because of trymaine's reporting.'s it's a fantastic report, and i love to see that energy. it'se about substantive st representation, not nominal. >> correct. >> that's what he is saying that

the republicans have put up, just another black guy in the belief that black people will vote for the black guy. not wanting to understand the complexity of the community and the fact there is this notion called shared fate. the sense that what happens to one will happen to many of us all. when you put someone like herschel walker on the ballot, is that the person you're going to holdpe us accountable to? is that the person who you say is going to be our standard bearer? and the o voters are like no, we're absolutely not. absolutely not having that. when i was on the last time and talking with you and reverend sharpton, we talked about the cadence of a preacher. this race has had a cadence to it. >> yes. >> jesus is not on the ballot, but he is essentially saying everything that jesus stood for is on the ballot. and theyis sort of arced their campaign that way. >> and to land on it. because when o all of the journalism was revealing all of herschel walker's o hypocrisy, which isch what the abortion sty is. it's not about just the

abortions. it's about what trymaine just said. it's being a national banner for everybody else after paying for five, six himself. >> that's right.f. >> it's the hypocrisy he would carry. he fitca in perfectly in the republican caucus, but he would not be a good -- >> it's the hypocrisy. and according to reverend walker, especially from the pulpites he uses every sunday, is about social justice. h and moving -- >> you know, i sent this to officer harry dunn in the last hour. it's clear that voters heard you. you've been warning us about threats to our democracy since before the 2020 election. and i know you just revealed that there are still threats against you that we're going get into later in the hour. l but this campaign, it is a runoff in the state of georgia and itsat backdrop is this endangered democracy thatth we l live and dvote. >> and you see the voters'

response. the resiliency and the determination to vote any way. >> right. >> and ensure no matter how many hurdles they have to overcome, their voice is going to be heard, their voice is going to be t counted and it's inspiringo see that resiliency of voters reflect the resilieny of our democracy. >> georgia is a complicated story. you have especially in secretary of state e raffensperger two me whichpe mitch mcconnell and kev mccarthy won't do. they stood up to trump. they refused to carry out his coup plot in georgia. but they did back a voter suppression law. and you do have for the first time voters here having to vote under new rules. the early vote number is incredible. the mail vote is abysmal, down 81%, down even more in november than michigan's number. what do you make of the insidious efforts to make it harder to vote? >> well, it's clearly a strategy. not just in georgia, but nationally to put hurdles in place to confuse voters as well as changing the rules to make it

more chaotic when they do show up to vote. and that's some of what we're seeing. it also really underscores that no matter what politicians may do to try to impact our democracy or restrict access for historically underrepresented groups in particular, people will still rise to the occasion and meet the moment. and that's what we're seeing in georgia. >> i agree with that. but the operative in me, they shouldn't have to. of course not. >> democrats should not have to retrain their voters every year how to vote because republicans change the laws predicated on bs. >> you alsoic look at how this played out, right there. is an ascendant coalition in georgia in a bunch of states led by black voters who are continually handing victory to democrats. republicans watched that happen andbl they introduced something likent sb-202 that they say is just aboutat logistics and maki things easier. it may be making things easier for them. >> to win. >> it is making things harder for these voters. and soe it strikes me also tha

you have senator warnock, someone who has been at the forefront of this fight in the u.s. senate, positioning it, positioning voting rights as a question of morality. because o he understands the states. and we talk so often, especially on this program about trump and trumpism and how to sort of root it out. you and i agree it's not enough to get rid of trump or have trump be accountable. there are a slew of candidates that we have seen rejected. and i'm not just talk about whether or not walker wins tonight. i'm talking about desantis. it's also about understanding that the seeds of trumpism were planted longf before he ever ce down that escalator. >> yeah. >> and if you really want to root it out, you have to pull up the roots and be honest about the voter suppression efforts that existed before he was ever in the picture. >> and i guess just to not let these republicans, because everything is relative, right, in, the 24/7 news cycle, kevin

raffensperger relative to desantis ander abbott are bette. they still put into law something that is having -- we will be covering tonight the effect of a voter suppression law that was put into place because of the law. it wasac the pebble they threw trump because they prefused too the full coup. >> it's because i like this right/wrong paradigm and you're on a table full of political communicators. that is a gut check. it's not a head check. it's not how you feel about this policy. do you believe that this person is right or wrong? trymaine did a wonderful job of laying out the many accusations against walker. i think what that means is you have a person who is of questionable character, questionable competence, which draws attention to the fact that he is primarily a vessel for trumpism, and the fact that republicans plan to, run this race the way they plan to run arizona and nevada as being all about joe biden, right. they were going to say this incumbent democratic s senator voted with joe biden 94, 96% of the time that was not the killer

argument that they thought it was going to be. >> that was really important what reverend warnock did was not makern it about a referendu on biden himself. he actually did something which a lot of candidates don't often get to do, which is not nationalize the race. as much national attention is on it, he hastt focused a lot on t people of georgia and on solving the problems of georgia. so much so that even keeping joe biden at arm's length a little bit, which has actually helped him. anded so to me, incredibly smar and true strategy in doing. so and to your points, and i feel quite strongly about this, the referendum on trump and trumpism in this countryn thate saw in the midterm elections, that is playing all out right there in georgia in this election. >> and to your point, it's something matt dowd says all the time. senator raphael warnock didn't have to be told by a campaign adviser to go for the gut with the voters. it is how he governs. >> that's right.er >> he is how he leads.

it is how he leads, you know, in the pulpit. it is how he leads as a public official. and it is really -- governor whitmer - learned how to do thi too. these successful figures in this democratic party, like yourself, understand how to speak to people's gut about right and wrong. >> because it's in our gut too. i met when he was reverend warnock five years ago doing a voter registration effort both of us were doing with the atlanta hawks. this is who we are, who he is. speaking from the gut and connecting to others based on those srams co values comes nat. >> i often think of you as i'm trying to lay my head down on themy pillow tonight.ow i had asked you prior to the midterms what happens if all these election dehighs near don't get rejected? you said it'sn' a five-alarm alm for our democracy. this is also about setting the stakes for voters. there is this questionst of rig and wrong and the question of

what is on the line. while what is on the line can sound very technocratic. voters don't want to hear about power share agreements in the senate, what is the judiciary going to look like in the next five, ten years? and what are the decisions that they're going to make on something like voting rights? the stakes right now could not be higher. and i also think that senator warnock has done a good job of articulating those. >> to alicia's point, he picked the national issue that is the most t unifying, the right to vote. what predicates life in a democracy? it's the right to vote, right. but as a governor, on his website or campaign ads, they're about bipartisan accomplishments. he is very in touch with the most unifying natural issues and really governing very much in touch with the people of georgia. >> if you listen to those voters at the beginning of this segment, what it sounded like to me is that they feel -- i'm sure they felt this before, but certainly istoday, that they ha

agency. that they can make the change that they want to see right here today in these polls. and that -- there is no greater feeling for a voter than that, really. win or lose, whether your candidate wins or but the ability to say no, i can make substantial change as long as i just pull this lever, color in that circle. as long as i actually vote and exercise that right, change is going to hacome. you heard that come out. >> and know that it's going to be counted. >> yes. >> i want to ask you to your question about the your head on the pillow. and i too am usually kept awake. are we exhaling? do you feel better? >>do i think it too soon to exhale. we're going get through tonight. but i think there is also this question of how republicans choose to governor and how they choose to legislate and they've given no indication that we're turning a corner. >> right. >> think about the embers of accountability that we've seen just since you came on air at

4:00 p.m. and the amount of breaking news. i don't know if that's going to come out of new york. i don't know if that's going to comeng from doj. i don't know if that's going come -- it could come from voters. we've already seen that in the midterms. i think tonight could sort of lend the final message. but fundamentally, it's going to come down to whether or not republicans decide that it's time to change. >> but since they lost the senate again, the second time under imtrump, and eked out a vy narrow -- >> that was vicious again. again. >> they've doubled down. they've refused to come out and distance. none of them has said we won't support trump after dining with an anti-semite and white supremacist. that's his job description on wikipedia. after saying he would tear up the constitution. >>ar i was about to say that. >> the republican party seems to be going the wrong direction if they're going to be any part of this. >> i g agree. i just don't know where they go from here. >> down, down, down.

all right. i know you have to go. you're going to be on the air from what?ai >> i was here taking a nap on your couch. i hope you know how much i love you. yes, i'll be here at 1:00 a.m.e >> until the end. all of the votes counted. thank you for being here and starting us off. jocelyn and basel do not have to start their shift at 1:00 a.m. stick around. when weapon come back, two years after 2020, two years after the big lie was first told, and a month afterto winning reelectio secretary of state jocelyn benson still faces threats of violence from election deniers. we'll have that conversation next. plus, there are big concerns that the united states supreme court with its 6-3 super conservative majority won't do the right thing when it comes to american democracy. the court will consider the fringe theory that could have allowed the disgraced ex-president to overturn the last presidential election and potentially three the next one into absolute chaos. and later, on the ground in ukraine, andou on the hunt for russian war crimes as russian troops retreat, more and more

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just last month, voters in michigan made their voices heard, reelecting secretary of state jocelyn benson to her position resoundingly after two years of constant threats from election deniers in her state who continue to peddle the big lie. but despite this vote of confidence, benson says in a new interview that the threats

against her have never stopped. we're back with secretary of state jocelyn benson and basil smikle. tell us about that. >> even with the changes to twitter and social media, you see this ebb and flow constantly of people who have been misled through misinformation, using that to throw vitriolic threats your way, and knowing that can easily transform into an actual threat and real violence that we lived through. it's become part of the job at this point. it's become a new normal to have to do your job, which is essentially just managing elections in the midst of this maelstrom of misinformation that leads people to do really awful things or threaten to do awful things and keep marching forward any way. >> i think anyone in public square deals with that. you are a particular target of ire from the twice impeached ex-president. and i wonder what impact it has on you and your threat profile specifically when he repeats the lies? >> yeah, it always -- it is the

most significant uptick in attacks and threats that we see when he grabs the microphone or the megaphone that he has and uses to put the spotlight -- sometimes we call it the eye of sauron on us. and whether it's on me or the governor, the truth is on our side. and so it's become also quite habitual to step back, brace yourself for the onslaught, take a beat and speak the truth in response. and in doing so, we can help at least turn down some of the heat. but it doesn't take away from the rhetoric and just the noise that any time he speaks and attacks us, that it generates. >> do you see with the changes at twitter, do you see more of it? >> oh, yeah, instantly. daily. it becomes a battle place as opposed to place where you can share information. and we're still continuing to share information and serve as that trusted voice of facts and evidence. but we're doing it against a significant much larger storm and cloud of people just consistently attacking everything we say. and it's really disappointing

because this is a platform that we have used successfully to defend democracy with truth and facts. to see it now through the ownership be mired in lies and falsehoods and misinformation is -- it's sad and it's a terrible misuse of a platform that has done a lot of good in different ways. >> we are living under a bulletin warning us of an ongoing threat of violent extremism. michigan has been a place where that is alive and well. and i wonder if the really stunning and decisive victories of yours and governor witmer's and the democratic legislature has made you feel confident that the truth is breaking through or even more of a target for that anger. >> both. first we've always known that the truth is on our side. the lawson our side. and the vast majority of voters are on the side of freedom and democracy and who we are as

michiganders and americans. that's a great thing. that's really a voice that's stronger and louder than it's ever been in many elections before. so that's a great thing. but at the same time, with every breach of that wave, there is a response. and we're still going to see the response and brace ourselves for it. i think it's just important for us to see this as an ongoing battle about who we are. >> it's amazing. it's terrifying. i'm sorry that you're still dealing with those threats. no one is going anywhere. when we come back, we'll turn to the united states supreme court and its right-wing justices who may be on the verge of mainstreaming a fringe right-wing legal theory that could throw the 2024 presidential election and america's democracy into chaos. we'll explain, next. i remember when i first started flying, and we would experience turbulence. i would watch the flight attendants. if they're not nervous, then i'm not going to be nervous. financially, i'm the flight attendant in that situation. the relief that comes over people once they know

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immediately, i saw that the white house on my bluetooth was calling, and i took the call. mr. giuliani came on first. and niceties. then mr. trump, president trump, then president trump came on. he said, well, we have heard by an official high up in the republican legislature that there is a legal theory, or a legal ability in arizona that you can remove the electors of president biden and replace them.

>> you can't. not a thing. that was former arizona speaker of the house rusty bowers testifying under oath that the january 6th select committee about the twice impeached ex-president's and allies' attempts to represent illegal theories in service of subverting free and fair elections. so fast forward to tomorrow when the united states supreme court will hear oral arguments in a case that has the potential to bring these kinds of theories. this one is known as the independent state legislature theory out of the shadows and into the mainstream, giving election deniers another shot at using the very same tactics they used to try to overturn the 2020 election in 2024. election law expert rick hassan writing in a friend of the court brief lays out this crisis and what would be created if the supreme court rules in favor of this theory. he describes it like this. quote, petitioner's expansive

reading of the elections klaus is one of not only decreased public confidence in the united states election system, but in the state and federal judiciaries as well. at its extreme, the independent legislature theory could pave the way to subvert legitimate election results, leading to election losers rather than election winners taking office. petitioner's expansive interpretation threatens american democracy itself. joining our conversation the aforementioned rick tassn as well as msnbc election analyst. my first question, why hasn't this received more attention if tomorrow the arguments will be presented to the supreme court? >> well, i think the first thing is that it's a really technical legal argument. everyone understands abortion rights are under attack or a kind of first amendment type of case. but this is a case about whether a state court can apply a state constitution to limit what a federal -- to limit what a state legislature does in a federal

election. even just to say it, it's so complicated. but the bottom line is it would take away one of the tools that state courts use to protect voting rights which is protecting them under their state constitutions. and it would give state legislatures much more power in terms of setting the rules for elections, and it would basically create the conditions where any time a state court or a state election administrator did anything that could potentially raise a question in state court, it creates grounds for the federal courts to get involved too. so doubling the amount of litigation, and ultimately making the united states supreme court the ultimate arbiter over what state courts mean hen they interpret their own constitutions. and that is pretty radical. >> what are the motives of the side that is behind it? >> so i think one thing to understand is that in north carolina, the state legislature called the general assembly there gets to draw district lines. the governor doesn't have a role. even though there is a democratic governor, a republican legislature drew

these lines, and a democratic dominated state supreme court said what you did, you engaged in a partisan gerrymander against the state constitution. what that did essentially is it put the state court on a collision course with the state legislature. and i think the legislatures see this as a partisan battle. and they see -- we saw the same thing in pennsylvania. republican legislature, democratic-dominated supreme court. they see the state constitution to protect voting rights as a partisan attack on their power. that's why wee see this case here with lots of briefs filed on both sides because people understand the stakes are so high. >> rick, the new york sometimes is reporting that four supreme court justices have already expressed at least tentative support for the theory. how would you -- i know people don't like to handicap a final opinion by the supreme court. but what's your degree of worry heading into this? >> so here's what we know that. this issue has come up before. it came up in bush versus gore,

the 2000 case that disputed the election then. three justices were in support of the theory then. we know from cases that came up in 2020 on the emergency appeals to the supreme court that there are three justices now who seem to be attracted to the theory. that's gorsuch, thomas and alito. i think we can safely say that the three democratic appointed justices are going to oppose this theory. so i'm going to be watching tomorrow to see what justices cavanaugh and barrett as well as chief justice roberts think. they're the ones who are going to be looking at whether texts in history support this idea, and also, this is what i put forward in my brief, the kind of administrative concerns that come up when you essentially create conditions that lead to the doubling of the amount of election litigation in the courts, and putting the supreme court in the hot seat all the time deciding issues while elections are pending. that's not a comfortable position for the court. >> it is exactly, though, what trump and his allies wanted. let me play for you some of what rudy giuliani and john eastman

wanted from the supreme court. >> presumably, action like this will be challenged in the supreme court. should they take this action, or some other legislature, how do you see that argument? >> well, it could get to the supreme court it could be presented to congress at the joint session of congress when they begin opening the ballots and counting the ballots. and if you have the governor's certified slate of elects or the and the legislative slate of certified electors, unfortunately section 15 of title 3 is embarrassingly bigguously. i think the supreme court very well may weigh. in. >> just to strip off the complicated legal aspects of this, they wanted to defraud the american voting public by exploiting something that was ambiguous and put forth fake

electors. that's why doj is investigating the fake electors scheme. how far does this open the door to outright fraud in our elections? >> well, that's a great point. and i don't usually agree with john eastman, but i think he is right that the biggest danger is not that the courts are going to endorse a theory that state legislaors can come in and appoint alternate electors after the election has happened, but that the courts would stay out of it and republicans in congress would just accept this theory. and i argue that in my brief. i said if the supreme court recognizes a broad reading of this independent state legislature theory, it would be used as a tool for election subversion. and the legislators replied brief oh, no, that's a scurrilous suggestion. we would never think that it could lead to something like that because there are other protections against it. but i'm really worried that it would provide a fig leaf for trying to steal elections in the future if the court embraced

what some are calling the maximalist version of the theemplt. >> jocelyn, this was attempted, overturning the will of the voters of your state and trump's team. >> for those who lived through that we know how close we came and how there was a path to overturning the will of the people not just in michigan, in other states it's important to know this case is about whether we're going to upend the important checks and balances that the three branches of government have. as the courts and the legislature, the three branches, coequally work to ensure our elections work and every voice is heard and every voice is counted. if the supreme court upends that and gives undue or too much authority to one branch, in this case the legislature branch that happens to gerrymandered districts, it injects partisanship even more and upends the careful checks and balances states do have to protect the will of ever voter. >> basel, this is everything

rick that offered up, this is everything jocelyn has offered up in destroying the checks and balances. this is a story about a radical u.s. supreme court that we're even talking about this. >> it so happens that i was talking about the federalist papers with somebody today. >> of course you were. while i was checking netflix, you were reading the federalist papers. >> power is an encroaching nature. and to me, going back to the conversations about our gut instincts, this feels like an attempt to consolidate power and to get rid of the checks and balances that we have in our government. if you tie that to what happened at mar-a-lago, trump's attempt to intervene with the court's mandate for the search, you know, it's not spontaneous. this is not spontaneous. there is a long history of what we're seeing here. there has to have been, and we've already acknowledged that there was an intellectual

framework that is allowing for this conversation to even take place. so it's a lot deeper than just being in front of the supreme court tomorrow. there is an entire sort of intellectual strain of thinking, massing as some academic truth that is creating the window for people to not only believe this, but to take to it the highest levels of our government. at a time when the country is diversifying, you have more and more states having state legislatures led by people of color or by women. this is what scares folks. the kind of law making that stems from that, the kind of policy making that stems from that. this is an attempt to dial that back and say no, we're not going to have the courts involved. it's the state legislatures that are now going to take power aggressively and overturn all of the progress that's being made. >> it's important, there is nothing in the u.s. constitution that would suggest really that this theory is one that should be adopted.

several constitutional scholars have head over and over again. this is an attempt to empower one branch of government over the other two in states where they're supposed to be shared power. and that's why it's really terrifying to see potentially the power of democracy really pushed towards partisanship in the court. >> it's just amazing of another threat to democracy. one from the courts. it is the theme. rick, thank you very much for being part of our coverage and helping us understand everything that is at stake. we will continue to call on you on the story. michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, thank you for being here at the table. it was such a treat. >> thanks for having me. it was wonderful. >> and basel, we drag you down here all the time. we're always thankful. as we head back to ukraine, as a new ability we think to strike russia where it helps. plus, the grim mission to uncover evidence of war crimes in ukraine and hold russia accountable for them. that's next.

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and learn about savings at nucala.com there's more to your life than asthma. find your nunormal with nucala. with downy infusions, there's more to your life than asthma. let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. a series of drone attacks on military bases inside russia could signal a willingness to take the war closer to the russian people and its president. moscow's defense ministry has blamed two explosions at air bases deep inside russia on ukrainian forces, with a third attack coming in just the last few hours. according to russian officials, the first two explosions killed three military personnel. nbc news has not verified the claims, nor has ukraine taken

responsibility. the potential new ability by ukrainian forces to strike from afar would represent another battlefield victory and advance for the ukrainians as they continue to push the russians away from their country. amid that retreat, officials back home in ukraine are just beginning the gruesome and heart wrenching search for evidence of how their people died during the russian occupation and at the hands of russian soldiers where the war crimes were committed by the russians forces. joining us from ukraine, retired u.s. army colonel eugene bienemann. he is legal adviser to the national security council. he is now working on war crimes issues in ukraine for the state department. thank you for being with us. >> thank you, nicolle, for having me back on here to talk about a very important topic. >> tell me what your mission is and how this has to be brutal and grueling work. >> well, this is a critically important mission, and one thing that you'll hear from

ukrainians -- three things. one, thank you very much for the weapons that you provided. two, provide more, and three, we want accountability for the damage and destruction that the russians have rained upon us. and this goes for the average ukrainian on the street to senior leaders. and the mission is critically important. it's a multinational mission, and i'm proud to be with a group of very experienced prosecutors and experts helping the ukrainians. it's a u.s., uk and eu mission to work with the prosecutors on the ground, help them investigate, and eventually make sure that there is accountability for these war crimes. >> crimes. >> we heard so much about the horrors in bucha. but i feel like we haven't heard quite as much from the areas that ukraine has recently taken back. just tell us what the scope of the investigation into war

crimes looks like. >> absolutely. so, this is going to be really a multiyear mission. i have had five trips to ukraine since june, and so basically monthly, and we're working with international partners to ensure that the 49,000, almost 50,000 cases ukraine opened into possible war crimes are investigated. and the scope here is really enormous. so although ukrainians, the ukrainian prosecutors are very experienced and capable, this is a specific area of the law, and they need help with the scope, and that's what this international mission is designed to do. and it's going to take years to ensure there's accountability for these crimes. and if you think about the situation in the former yugoslavia, everyone from world war ii, there's still prosecutions for war crimes from those cases, so i think this is going to be a long process,

multilayer. the ukrainians are going to investigate and prosecute some of these cases, and there's going to be a role for the international community, the international criminal court is going to have a significant role. and potentially other tribunals. for instance, the european union announced last week that they're interested in potentially creating a new tribunal for the crime of aggression, which is the crime that you could potentially charge vladimir putin with, starting an aggressive, unwarranted war in violation of the united nations' charter and the principals that have maintained generally piece in europe since world war ii. >> vladimir putin was reported to have awarded the soldiers who carried out the atrociies in bucha with medals. how do you hold him accountable? >> you hold him accountable through several potential mechanisms. one is through a concept called command responsibility. he's ultimately the commander in

chief of his forces. he directs and organizes the strategic policies. that's one mechanism. another mechanism is potentially this tribunal for the crime of aggression. there's also a crime, and looks like the crime elements of genocide have been meant, an attempt to destroy in whole or part the ukrainian people. you hear that constantly from russian officials is their intention is to wipe out the ukrainians as a people. so there are a number of mechanisms. i think this is a criminal case that has basketball built very carefully with evidence that will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that putin is responsible for the crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, the crime of command responsibility for the war crimes that his forces committed, and it's a very important action, and we have a great team working on

that. >> eugene vindman thank you for staying up and spending some time with us. we're grateful. >> thank you. quick break for us. we'll be right back. be right ba. r are living longer with kisqali. so, long live family time. long live dreams. and long live you. kisqali is a pill proven to help women live longer when taken with an aromatase inhibitor. and kisqali helps preserve quality of life. so you're not just living, you're living well. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. avoid grapefruit during treatment. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant,

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your gift will have two times the impact. all right, so here's what's coming up next for us here. polls in georgia will close a little over one hour from now at 7:00 p.m. eastern. just before that, at 6:45 to be exact, our special coverage gets under way. the election team will be back together. i'll join the rest of the msnbc lineup as the results from georgia pour in. join us for a great night of coverage. we will be right back. l be righ. couple of kids, recently went through a divorce. she had a lot of questions when she came in. i watched my mother go through being a single mom. at the end of the day, my mom raised three children, including myself. and so once the client knew that she was heard. we were able to help her move forward. your client won't care how much you know

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thank you so much for being here with us. we are grateful. our coverage continues now on "the beat" with ari melber who has a huge booking. i'm running downstairs to watch. >> we think it is a newsworthy booking. thank you, nicolle. see you t.