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we dwin with our top story. democrats have now expanded their power in the u.s. senate after voters in georgia reelected senator warnock in a critical runoff against challenger herschel walker. warnock's victory marks a historic moment making him the first black senator to win a full six-year term in georgia. >> it is my honor to utter the four most powerful words ever spoken in a democracy. the people have spoken. >> joining us now with the very latest is national political correspondent steve kornacki at the big board. and vaughn hillyard joins us from atlanta. and victoria soto is the dean of the clinton school of public service at the university of arkansas. she's also an msnbc critter. so vaughn, this was a hard

fought race that got very personal at times. warnock successful here. >> reporter: this was a moment here where so much of the candidates' past were the deciding factors in the present here. the reelection of raphael warnock, who went around the state making the case to voters on what he was able to accomplish with the democratic majorities and the democratic white house over the last two years. focusing on the fact that they were able to successfully cap insulin costs at $35 for seniors. at the fact that he was able to press the biden administration to help student loan forgiveness. this was a candidate who made the case that votes mattered in the 2020 election and they could matter again in 2022. for herschel walker, it was a different story. this is an individual who moved from texas and took up residency here in georgia just over one year ago. filled out a new voter

registration card ask announced his bid. he was drafted by donald trump to be the trump candidate in georgia. but past issues of his hurt him. you had multiple women come forward over the course of the summer allege that he maid paid for abortions. and last week a woman came forward said in the course of her five-year relationship with auction herschel walkerwalk, she was physically abused. and when you looked at the policy positions of herschel walker, they are simplistic and heavily focused on the trump message that doomed other republican candidates in key states around the country. as for donald trump, this was difficult. he was nowhere to be seen in the state of georgia dating back to march. as he's trying to mount his own 2024 run, if he were to be the republican nominee in 2024, he would need to win the state of georgia. yet his endorsed candidate, herschel walker, is losing by a greater margin than the republican senate candidates did in 2020 and he did himself in

his own 2020 bid. that's a tough thing to run on as he looks towards his own political future. >> and victoria, axios points out, walker's loss caps an historic gop embarrassment. 2022 is the first midterm election since 1934 when the party in power successfully defended every of incumbent senate seat. what message does last night's results send to both parties? >> a lot of messages. but let me start off by underscoring the candidate matter. and when we're talking about general elections, they are decided in that very slim middle. so the tendency of primaries that run to the extreme to produce candidates such as herschel walker and others that we saw across the country, we're seeing time and again it's just not a viable option in terms of appealing to the main streel.

in terms of what this means, close to 100 years since we have seen this type of result where the white house was able to hold the line. yes, there were some losses in the house, but picked up in the senate. we also saw state legislatures across the country pick up seats. the democrats picked up two seats. so i would qualify it as the status quo/very slight pickup for democrats nationally. this is good. you see the status quo, normalcy won in light of a red wave that many had been expecting. >> what do you think it means for democrats in the senate going forward? >> it solidifies their majority. we don't have to rely on kamala harris to be the tie breaker, but institutionally at the end of the day, the senate is a chamber that works on seniority rules.

this having a 51 majority, you're going to see in the committee structure where the work gets done an edge for democrats. this translates into easier to get judges and political atoinpoint tees. something that was difficult in the first two years. and also not having to hold your breath every of time there's a tight vote and looking toman joe manchin and cincinnati cincinnati. it gives more breathing room in terms of the very close votes. >> so where did thing gos wrong for walker? >> a couple places. one, you look in the immediate atlanta metro area. this is the core of where the population is. this is the core of where the democratic strebt is in georgia. it's the core of where warnock's strength was in the november general election that proceeded this runoff. warnock finished ahead of walker in november ask he was just a

fraction of a point short of 50% in avoiding the runoff altogether. so one of the goals that walker had was to make sure warnock didn't improve in his core areas. a place like gwinnett, one of the fastest growing counties in georgia. nearly a million people live here. you see warnock got 62% of the vote here. how does that compare to how the november election went? warnock got less than 59%. so he grow his support in a very big county. democrats were happy with the number out of this county. walker, one of his tasks last night was in all the counties in blue you see here around atlanta was to make sure walker department get north of the level he was at in the general election back in november. but warnock did do that. so walker failed there to contain warnock.

and the second place where things went wrong for herschel walker this this race is this next level of county, next ring of in the metro area getting into more of the 40 minutes outside of atlanta. here you see big size counties that are still republican giving example here. cher key county, very republican. 45 minutes north of atlanta. walker wins it last night, but what was his challenge here? it wasn't just to win it. it was to win it by a very big margin because here's what you're seeing. this is the governor's race. brian kemp last november, kemp won easily over stacey abrams. in this county, cherokee county, the biggest republican county in the state, kemp won by 50 points over abrams. meanwhile in the same night last november, walker won the county but his margin was less than 40 points. so the challenge last night for walker was to get that margin closer to kemp's margin than it

was to the original margin against warnock. you can see he really didn't move the needle. as a matter of fact, warnock actually ran a little bit closer to walker in cherokee county last night than he did in the general election in november. so there were opportunities there in big republican counties where walker needed to run up the score more than he did in november ask he pretty much failed to do that across the board. meanwhile many the democratic counties, warnock actually did manage to improve his showing a little bit from november. so again, back in november, warnock finished ahead of walker. last night the margin ends up being almost 3 points for warnock. >> "the new york times" writes, forget about florida and ohio. georgia and arizona are poised to be the next king makers of presidential politics. what's your take on that? >> as an arizona native, i also like that theory. i would add in nevada as well.

even though nevada has been trending blue, we have seen it be purple at times. i do think that we need to think about the other areas in florida you have a ron desantis, who is a very popular republican governor. we saw that in the election results and that translating into 2024. so 20 years ago floridas was a very slim state, over the last two election cycle, we have seen that is no longer the case. the cuban vote still stays very staunchly republican. we're seeing the central american vote trending strongly towards the republican party. and even some puerto ricans flirting with the republican party. at this moment right now, i agree with that prognostication. it's staying solidly red. >> thank you all very much for being with us this morning. i want to go right to the senate. senate majority leader chuck schumer is speaking. >> 17 days of ft longest 50/50

senate in history, 51, a slim majority, that is great. and we are so happy about it. first and foremost, i want to congratulate raphael warnock. i spoke to him this morning again. he will be up here later today. strong, inspiing, unifying, never daunted. i remember calling him the day the vote came in in the general election. and even though he was disappointed he came close but not at 50 and he would have to run again, he said i'm raring to go and we're going to win the runoff. and of course, he did by not half a percent or 1% but by close to 3%. it was because he did an amazing thing. he was just a person for who had great faith.

he had great strength. he had great conviction. he had great caring. he's a unique man who has a great future. and i was brought to tears last night watching him tell his story about his mom. she grew up in the '50s picking someone else's con to the and last night, this is so touching, every time read it i get choked up, last night she helped pick her son to be a united states senator. only in america. only in america you know, i ban recruiting candidates in georgia. my first choice was obviously my friend stacey abrams. she said there's someone as good as me. raphael warnock. and it took me awhile to even convince him to meet with me.

he was very busy with the the job he had at the baptist church as pastor of one of the leading pulpits in america. the minute i met him, i said, this guy is special. if there's anyone who can win in georgia, which was then regarded as a red state, it is this guy. and it took a few more months, a persuasion, i had everyone call him. al sharpton was on tv mentioning that. and thank god he ran. and of course, the people of georgia are better off. the caucus is better off and america is better off because he ran and won. and as asaid, he's going to have a great, great future. so that's first ask foremost. an amazing man who has now had four victories in two years in what was regarded as a red state. and one more point i would make.

i give lots of credit to stacey abrams. she and her organizations helped take a state that was very red and made it purple it's a lesson for all of of us. you don't just come into an election six months before, but you build organizational strength day after day and year after year. second, i'm going to talk about why do democrats defy history in these midterms. it's the first time since 1934 where every democratic incumbent won with the party in power. that hasn't happened since 1934 that every every incumbent won. why did that happen? first, because we have great candidates. not just raphael warnock. we probably talked to every one of the candidates.

their strength was credible. every of time there was a setback, none of them said, oh god, it's terrible. they just move forward. but there are two other points that i would make here why we won. why did things change? why back in april when everyone thought with would lose seat, why did we win? two things happened, and i'll take it in time order. first, in may and june, the public began to realize how far right these maga republicans had had gone. the dobbs decision was the crystallization of that. people said they are serious about turning the clock all the way back. but then there were the two other supreme court decisions on concealed carry and on limiting

what we could do to stop coal plants from poisoning the at months tier. there were the january 6th hearingings. people didn't just read about something that happened once, but every night they saw on tv these insurrectionists, being violent, beating up police officers. i was very touched meeting the sicknicks yesterday. and they saw all of that and said, wow. the third thing is they saw that the republican leaders wouldn't even attack this craziness. and so 10 to 15% of the lek tort republicans who were not maga republicans, who were not trump republicans, people who said, well, i'm a reagan republican. i'm a bush republican. but this trump republican isn't for me. and independents who tended to

vote republican started saying this republican party isn't for me. but in june still, they held doubts about the democratic party. was the democratic party talking about things they didn't care about or department like? and could they get anything done? and the turning point occurred that summer. this summer. where wes aed six major bill, five bipartisan, all of which affected people's lives. they were things people. ed us to talk about. making the environment better, dealing with high costs of prescription drugs, dealing with gun safety. getting american jobs here not in china with new industries in the chips legislation. expanding health care. they said, whoa, this is the party that i like. and by september 1st, i thought we would win the senate. we would keep the senate.

because the combination of those two things was the powerful one-two punch that made us defy all the odds and provided the right nutrient so our great candidates could prevail. don't take my word for it. this is what i read lindsey graham said this morning. he said, quote, democrats have done a pretty good job of picking issues that motivate their base and have wider support among the public. we, the republicans, need to be doing the same thing. i think a lot of people in the republican party don't see us doing it emphatically as the democrats. just one of the tu times i will quote lindsey graham with approval, but he said it. the practical effects of the 51-seat majority is big. it's significant. >> senate majority leader chuck

schumer giving his analysis of the elections that were carried out yesterday in georgia. the first time since 1934, 88 years ago when the party in power successfully defended every incumbent senate seat. we're going to continue monitoring what senator schumer is talking about. but we want to talk about something that is happening as we speak as well. there's new anticipation this morning about the chairman of the january 6th committee said the panel is considering criminal referrals to the justice department. in a statement to nbc news, a spokesperson said the panel will decide the specifics of the criminal referrals in the next couple days. joining us now is capitol hill correspondent, what do we know about this? >> good morning. the question of whether this committee will end up issuing these really referrals to the justice department has been loom

ing over this panel for over a year now since it started its investigation. and the committee knows it has these next few little over three weeks now as their final window to be able to do that. so you can imagine the stir that the chairman's comments caused when he said the panel made a decision on criminal referrals. as you said, the committee shortly after that coming out and saying that is something that's still being debated, but what we know is the committee met virtually to go over some lingering questions. who these criminal referrals could potentially be or. what sorts of charges would be included in them. how the committee koud make their cases as airtight to be able to send these to the justice department and have the justice department move on these referrals. something we know that they technically don't have to do. so committee member pete aguilar said these are all still questions the committee is still considering.

>> thank you. joining us this morning is congresswoman zoe lofgren, she serves as a member of the house january 6th committee. i thank you for being with us this morning. you were a part of that subcommittee studying whether to issue criminal referral so the justice department. what are you looking at? and what can we expect? >> the subcommittee is made up of all the lawyers. we met a couple times. what we want to do is to make sure that whatever recommendation, and that's all it is, to the department of justice that we could make is firmly rooted in the evidence that we have uncovered. and so we're working through this. we're not quite done, but we will be done within days for sure. taking a look at all of the evidence, comparing the evidence to the criminal code and then discussing that amongst us.

there's no acrimony involved. we just want to be careful lawyers about this. >> the panel has made a case against donald trump. is there any scenario where criminal referrals are made that do not include the former president? >> we're looking at everything. our charge as a subcommittee was not just criminal referrals, but consequences for individuals whose behavior fell short of requirements. so we're locking at that. we're looking at other matters. really we'll be done today or tomorrow i'm pretty sure. and then we'll talk to the full committee. >> what type of criminal referral are you locking at? what types are we thinking about? >> well, i don't want to get

ahead of of the committee, but we're taking a look at the criminal code and we're taking a look at the actions, the facts that we uncovered. and comparing what are those facts really constitute a violation of the criminal code. i can't be more specific than that. obviously, the former president was at the center of the effort to overthrow the government. so it would be foolish to say it's not something we're look ing at. but i don't want to get ahead of the committee and say what our conclusion is. especially when we will be done with this in the next few days. >> any idea of when the final report from the january 6th committee could be coming? >> very soon. we have spent a lot of time not only our staff, but the members of the committee have spent

countless hours going through the reports, editing them, making sure that they are firm ly tethered to the tacts uncovered by the investigation and nothing else. i think we're very close to being finished. but we're not quite there. >> congresswoman, for years, you have been known to work across party lines with anyone and everyone to try to get something done on immigration. president reagan was the last president to sign a comprehensive immigration reform. that would be 1986. would this congress -- >> i don't know. the house of representatives has said numerous bills to the senate. they have been sitting there. we sent a comprehensive bill to reform immigration when it comes to farm workforce that was bipartisan and also supported by the united farm workers union as well as growers. that's been sitting there since march of 2021.

we sent a bill for the dreamers and for tps recipients. it's just been sitting there. yesterday we did a bill to prevent veterans of the united states from being deported. today we'll take up a bill to take racism out of the employment visas, which we think is important. i don't know what the senate is doing. we see press reports that two senators are trying to put something together, but we don't know what that proposal will look like. i'm certainly open to any proposal, but we need to know what the proposal is. we don't know anything except what we read in the newspaper. >> the two senators have been hashing out all kinds of details.

they haven't been -- the detail wes don't really know. congresswoman -- >> it matters. >> details matter. and i'm just thinking about the many times you have been involved in comprehensive um grigs reform proposals where details were the ones that mattered so much that they actually doomed a number of efforts. is there any possibility of any kind of bipartisan work that could do something as important as immigration reform, even if it's piece by piece, like you talk about the different pieces that have already been presented. any possibility going forward in the future? >> we had big bipartisan efforts here in the house. they were pretty transparent. the farm workforce bill, it took shy of a year to write.

we did it with bipartisan members. we introduced the bill. people could look at it. then we had a markup in the committee. people could see every line of it. then we had a full debate in the house and a vote. so there was no back room deals. it was very up front ask very bipartisan. then the senate just did nothing. so if the senate can wake up, i think maybe we have a chance, but be don't know what they are doing over there. it's not a great process that's being used. >> congresswoman, it's always a pleasure to see you. thank you so much for being with us this morning. >> thank you. take care. >> like wise. still ahead, china makes a major announcement about covid restrictions after a week of unprcedented protests. but first, a major case that could have critical implications for democracies being heard at

the supreme court. that's next. you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports." diaz-balart reports.

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30 minutes after the hour. the supreme court is hearing arguments in a challenge that's been described as the most important case on democracy. it focuses on a republican-led case out of north carolina that argues state legislatures should have sole authority to set election rules and only congress should be able to intervene. critics say that could change the way elections are run. critics of the case say it could, quote, up end democracy. julia ainsley, lake lei out the arguments. why are the stakes so high? >> at the heart of this is something called the independent

state legislature theory. and this started back in hi home state of north carolina. when the republican of-led legislature tried to redraw and redistrict maps before the 2022 election. they shade they should not have intervened. what they are talking about here today goes beyond redistricing. it could have implication on voter laws, how you qualify to vote, and it would allow legislatures the winners to make those rules. those are the arguments we're hearing today. those arguments just got underway. it specifically gives the power to legislatures and not to courts. this starts as a fringe theory during the 2000 election, with us it's gained prominence among conservative legal leaders. >> as julia was mentioning, the

heart includes what's called the independent state legislature theory. what is that theory? >> sure. so it comes out of the constitution. the elections clause says that the rules for states to set rules regarding federal elections, the state's legislature really has complete sole authority. so the question is does it mean as it reads that no other state government, a governor, an independent commission or most importantly the courts, have any say whatsoever in helping to set those rules. let's say a legislature in north carolina or some other state draws a new congressional map. and in some way, it ed ofs the state constitution shouldn't the state courts in that state in

some other state have a say. don't they have a role. shouldn't they be able to interpret the state constitution in light of what the state legislature has done. and the theory that julia has articulated, the claim that north carolina is making in the supreme court case is, no, the courts have no role. the state legislatures have the sole authority to set rules for congressional elections. >> interesting. >> they are closer about the roles and responsibilities of the states. it's not the state legislature that decides if there's an opening for senate.

essentially the independent state legislature clause or theory is that there is and should be no recourse, no appeal outside of what the state legislature decides vis-a-vis elections? >> if you read it strictly in the way that the north carolina legislature is pushing its theory in the supreme court today, yes, they would say that we have the sole authority. that sole authority has been granted to us by the constitution. there's no role for the governor. there's no role for the state courts. there's no role for election administra administrators. by the way, if this theory prevails, it doesn't just help republicans control the legislatures it would help democrats in states in which democrats control state legislatures.

either way it would read out of the business to make sure the legislatures are abiding by the state constitutions. i'm not looking at this through a political frame work, but rather a policy framework. does it make sense to discard courts in this historic role of overseeing the work of state legislatures. so i think the clear import is that state constitutions have to be interpreted by staut courts and that they have a role. >> really interesting and formative conversation. thank you both for being with us this morning. make sure you stay with msnbc for coverage of this important case. chris jansing will talk about it with governor roy cooper today at 1:00 p.m. eastern, 10:00 a.m. pacific. up next, time has just naumed its person of the year. we'll tell you who that is, next. you're watching "jose

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mike memoli is live at the white house with the very littest. what do we expect tonight? >> it really is hard to believe that it's been ten years since the horrific school shooting in sandy hook elemeelementary. it was an event for gun safety measures that we have seen in the decade since. so tonight president biden is going to be lending his voice as he meets with both vooifrs and families of victims of gun violence to talk about this moment in time and to really reflect on had what has happened in the past ten years. there's both a policy and a personal component to this. president biden has signed into law just this year the most meaningful gun safety legislation in really three decades, but he's also called for more action. he's vowed including throughout the midterms that he wants to go further and find a way to ban assault weapons yet again. so this is also a president who has played the role of comforter

in chief. ten years ago he was the vice president and met with many of those families dealing with the newtown massacre. now as president of the united states, he's going to talk about something he knows personally how hard these anniversaries are. president biden will be marking a somber anniversary. 50 years later this month since the death of of his first wife and infant daughter in a car accident at the start of his political career. >> mike memoli, thank you. "time" magazine named volodymyr zelenskyy as its person of the year. "time" highlighted the decision to stay and lead his country's defense in the face of russia's invasion. joining us from kyiv is ellison barber. it's not just zelenskyy. "time" honored the spirit of ukraine, which a spirit you have been spending so much time there and reporting got to learn a lot about.

>> reporter: i was thinking really hard about the idea of the ukrainian spirit and how i could possibly describe it to you adequately. i think i realized i can't because i'm not ukrainian. unless you have been here in the last nine months and seen it and felt it for yourself, it almost feels too big for words. by but i thought if i could dro you to some of the people the we have met that maybe you would feel a little bit of it too. i want to introduce you to a man we met a couple weeks ago. he lives sort of in the outskirts of kyiv. russian forces occupied his home. husband home was heaily damaged by shelling. we met him because the u.n. was helping him repair his house so he and his family could survive for the winter. i asked him something about supplies. i was trying to ask whether or not he felt like he had enough physical things to survive the winter.

i said do you feel like you were in a position to survive winter regardless of what happens. i thought we were talking about physical supplies because that's what we had been looking at. but he didn't take the question to mean that at all. he gave me an entirely different answer. listen. >> you see his guitar there. he kept playing songs for us. songs he had written since the full-scale invasion began. he told me he's too old to fight on the frontlines sorks he thinks his guitar is his weapon. the ukrainians are hard to define, but don't think it's hard to find. it's people like this who continue to write songs and play his guitar through air raid sirens. it's people who never picked up a weapon nine months ago but

when russia invaded they did. it's people they met on the border who left behind everything they knew to take their children in a bus or train in a country they had never been to so their children had a chance at surviving. >> ellison, i just remember so clearly that story that you had at the camp right outside in poland you met the kids you played soccer with. there's so much of this since february when this invasion began that has shown just the beauty and the resilience of the people of ukraine. and thank you for bringing us that day in and day out. i really appreciate it. thanks. >> reporter: thank you. in other news in germany, at least 25 people are under arrest right now suspected of plotting to overthrow the german government. authoriies say some 3,000 police officers raided more than

100 homes across germany this morning in one of the biggest counterterrorism operations in the country's history. the german prosecutors office says the suspects belong to a far right terrorist group that believes germany is being ruled by members of a so-called deep state. and that the group has been influenced by qanon. members of the group include german army veterans and a member of the german nobility. in argentina, the vice president is lshing out against her country kohn try's judicial system after being convicted in a billion-dollar fraud case. the panel found her guilty yesterday sentencing her to six years in prison and a lifetime ban from holding public office. she denies participating in a fraud scheme that embed theed $1 billion through public works projects while she was president. on her youtube channel, she described herself as a victim of a judicial mafia.

>> they have temporary immownty. she will not immediately go to jail. the sentence isn't firm until appeals are decided which could take years. up next, what does the guilty verdict for the trump organization mean for former president donald trump? we'll look into that next. you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports." o that nex. you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports. so, we switched back to tide. one wash, stains are gone. [daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. this is the planning effect. nina's got a lot of ideas for the future... a lot of ideas. so when she wants a plan based on what matters most, she turns to fidelity.

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the new subway series. what's your pick? new rection this morning after a jury found the trump organization guilty on all charges in a tax fraud scheme spanning more than a decade. the 17-count verdict found the trump organization guilty of a scheme to defraud, criminal tax fraud and falsifying business records. former president trump was not charged in connection with this case. the company now faces a fine up to roughly $1.6 million when sentencing takes place next month. joining us now is sue craig, investigative reporter. good to see you. what do you make of this decision? this decision? >> you see the headline and the $1.6 million fine is the maximum they're going to face. it doesn't sound like a lot of money. it's some money but i think the impact of this is going to be

more behind the scenes on two fronts. first of all, you're going to have, you know, right away when you have a company convicted of tax fraud, there's often issues with their loans and either, you know, the loans banks won't do business with them or they're going to be paying higher rates. we're not necessarily going to see anything like that with the trump organization because they're privately held and small and recently reorganized their debt. but that could be one impact. and then i think the other one is, you know, simply i think a conviction like this is just going to have more eyes on their business now and i think it's going to embolden regulators. when donald trump was on the "the apprentice" he used to say success breeds success. in this case i think this investigation could breed others and also embolden other people to start looking into it. >> so how uncommon or common is it for a company like this one, the trump organization, to face charges like the ones that they were convicted on? >> well, you know, it's an interesting question. i've covered corporate -- you

know, trials before involving corporate fraud and usually prosecutors go after the individual. in this case they decided to go after the company. so it's unique in that case and it's also unique in the law that was used here. it's not completely untested but it was a bit gray. when i went into the trial you would think that the cfo is, you know -- he's already pleaded guilty. he's going to be the star witness. it was a slam dunk. but it was an interesting threshold that they had to meet. they had to meet not only did allen weisselberg do this for not only his own self-interest but that he did it on behalf of the company, that he did it knows there was a savings to the company. in this case, they saved payroll taxes. but they had to meet that threshold that he wasn't just lone operator there defrauding the company. >> sue craig, thanks so much. appreciate it. >> thank you. china announced earlier today that it is rolling back some of the most stringent covid restrictions after weeks of

protests which include many protestors holding white papers, blank white papers as they demanded freedom. joining us now is nicholas kristof and the former beijing bureau chief for "the times." nick, it's great seeing you. what was the reaction to this news that they were going to be rolling back some restrictions? >> well, it was kind of a triumph for the incredibly brave chinese protestors who risked arrest, all kinds of punishment to force the government to adopt a more sensible covid policy. and this isn't a complete pirouette, but it's a major dismantling of this zero covid policy which has been hugely unpopular. taking people with mild covid symptoms and leading them away and forcing them to quarantine in institutional facilities, having lockdowns at the drop of a hat, in some cases locking

fire escapes. much of that, not all of it, much of that is going away. that's not because xi jingping had an epiphany. it's because millions and millions of brave chinese went out on the streets and forced them to do that. >> i'm wondering, nick, because those protests that we saw, which is just the fact that we're seeing them is so unusual coming out of china, but with, you know, the holding the blank pieces of paper, it's more than just covid, nick? is it a desire of people to just have freedom and what's the significance of the blank piece of paper? >> absolutely. so, you know, the initial thing that got people so riled up was the covid lockdowns, it was an incident in which a lockdown may have impeded fire rescuers so that people died in a fire unnecessarily. but more broadly, you know,

chinese want freedom. they -- china has created an educated middle class that yearns for the kind of well-being and life that people elsewhere in the world have. they watch the world cup and they see people enjoying themselves and meanwhile in china for years now, that has not been possible. and so it's obviously very difficult for chinese to fully articulate in public what they want. but there were calls for xi jingping to step down, for example, these -- the use of that white paper, that was a way of asserting that we don't have freedom of speech. we can't say what we want to say and that was not just about covid. that was about human freedom. >> yeah, and i mean, nick, when much of the world is in support of the chinese regime and i'm thinking about controlling what access they have to the internet, the phones they use

and the access that those phones can grant them, using social media to communicate, that was shutdown by multinational companies that are doing business in china. i'm just wondering, nick, when you look back to tiananmen square and your extraordinary reporting during all of those years, do you see any thread of anything in what happened today? >> so one of the open questions for decades in china has been whether as the government educates more people, sends more people to universities, as there more of an urban middle class, they'll learn more about the world, whether that generates the kind of unrest and demand for democracy that it and -- in south korea, in taiwan, and indonesia, even in mongolia. and the chinese government has vetted, no, it thinks they can

stifle them politically. the significance of those protests were, no, people want better covid policies but they also want greater human freedom and greater participation in decision-making. and i think that the fact that they were -- they were able to force the chinese government to turn around signifies that that spark is still a light and i think it has probably left xi jingping somewhat wounded, it's kind of hard to take advantage of that. >> yeah. nicholas kristof, it's great speaking to you. thank you for your time. >> thank you, my pleasure, jose. and that wraps up the hour for me. i'm jose diaz-balart. you can always reach me on twitter and instagram at jdbalart. please follow the show online. thank you for the privilege of your time. lindsey reiser picks up with more news after a quick break. r. . i respect that. but that cough looks pretty bad. try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love,

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