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i'm katy tur. something interesting happened in this country last night, something that has not happened in about 90 years, the party in power, this case, defended every single incumbent seat in an election cycle. raphael warnock's name does not mean that the democrats have only a spritely better hold on the senate, it now means that they have fresh hopes for 2024 when the senate map looks, to put it nicely pretty bad for the democrats, we're going to explain why in a moment. but first, there is another big 2024 variable being argued right now in front of the supreme court. the power of the states over their even own elections. that case is being argued over the case of a drawing of congressional districts, redistricting, the appeal is being brought by republicans in north carolina, arguing that they're heavily gerrymandered map, which drew even more, with the districts in the gop, whether it is legal under the

independent state legislature theory. don't worry. we'll explain that argument. the stakes after all are high. a ruling in their favor would give complete control over elections to state legislatures, greatly affecting who goes to congress, and who arguably gets disenfranchised. potentially upending checks and balances and opening the door to violations of state voter protections. the argument stretched for nearly three hours today. and it appears at least three of the six conservative justices are sympathetic. joining me now from outside the supreme court is nbc's julia ainsley. explain this case. >> reporter: so let's start with what you said, the independent state legislature theory, that is at the heart of this case, where republicans who control the state legislature in north carolina just before midterm tried to re-draw this district. and they were checked by the state supreme court. then the legislature said it shouldn't be up to the courts.

and in fact, that came all the way to the supreme court, where this court said, temporarily, they're going to side with the court, so they weren't able to go through with that in the midterms. now they're hearing an argument based on the merits of that case. and before the supreme court today, the leader of the north carolina legislature, moore, who we just heard from a minute ago, said it should be up to legislatures, no other body in the state, not the governor, not court, to be able to make the rules around elections. he's pointing to the election clause, he said that it specifically says it's up to the legislature. but katy, typically, that's been a pretty fringe legal theory, gaining prominence in conservative legal circles all the way to the point that the supreme court will have to weigh in on it. and based on the way they ruled just earlier this year, with alito leading the dissent, saying that in fact it should be left up to the legislatures, not the court, to make those rules, we know that also justices gore

such and thomas signed on to that dissent, so there are a few justices here in the middle, including justice amy coney barrett that we're listen can to today, and it seems so far, the stakes could not be higher but it is hard to get exactly how the supreme court will rule on this. but katy, as you pointed out, the results are far-reaching. it wouldn't just be whether or not a legislature could change the redistricting map and it could be voter i.d.s, how and when to vote, who is eligible to vote, and it would simply strip the courts and states all of their power to put checks on legislatures. and of course, legislatures are controlled by political parties, so it's hard to see how the winners wouldn't be the ones left making the rules if the theory does prevail here. >> you put it so succinctly. julia, thank you so much. and joining me now is legal correspondent and msnbc law and politics, dahli lithwick.

and with me is msnbc legal analyst lisa ruben, and punch bowl msnbc political contributor, jake sherman, to talk about the way congress looks. >> julia got into the stakes. i'm hoping you can expand on that and what your reading was of these arguments today. >> i think julia pretty much laid out the map. in some sense, it's so strange that we just spent three hours, katy, listening to a lawsuit that is kind of post hoc fan fiction about a rehnquist opinion that got two other votes in bush v. gore which was supposed to be a case that was good for one ride only, and it shows how far we've come in 20 years, that is now the beating heart of this suit, and what was interesting to me, everybody knew the stakes were high, and nobody was minimizing that it

could have a huge ripple effect in every election going forward. what was interesting in my view is that. so justices are really anxious about out of control legislatures. the rest are really anxious about out of control courts. >> explain this. you said this was good for one ride only, decision or dissent, talk to me about it. >> bush v. gore as you may recall, expressly on its own terms please do not cite this case for any time going forward, it is a one-time solution for a larry election problem. >> somehow when justice rehnquist wrote in a concurring opinion in that litigation, he wrote this thing sort of spitballing that maybe, you know, state supreme courts shouldn't be able to muck around in legislative determinations about elections. that got two votes. but now it is being held up as though it was somehow the holding of bush v. gore.

that is insane on its own term. the fact that there is no basis in constitutional texts, or in history, in doctrine, anywhere in the founding papers for the independent state legislature doctrine, as part of just the whackiness of this case. >> what is interesting, lisa, is that of those who signed on for the amicus briefs, only 16 of the briefs were in support of north carolina out of 70. usually it is a little more balanced, can i say? or you tell me. >> usually, it is a little bit more balanced. but i think the overall number speaks to the consequences here. and to dalia's point, while none of the justices were quite minimizing the consequences of this case, they were not exactly transparent about it either, except for justice kagan, who at one point asked the lawyer for the north carolina legislature to take a step back and said, this is the theory with big consequences, and sort of outlined some of what julia said could be at stake. anything from partisan

gerrymandering, to partisan legislatures saying they alone have the right to certify an election or decide who electors should be. and that's why people like me and dahlia are saying that democracy itself is on the line. >> accepting north carolina's argument which is supported by other republican-led states, it would endanger hundreds of state constitutional provisions and state court decisions and more than a thousand delegations and authority to official commissions and others, it gets rid of checks and balances. >> that's exactly right. and that's exactly what justice kagan said today, when she got to the end of the soliloquy, this is effectively getting rid of checks and balances and something that justice kavanaugh was struggling today, effectively you are asking us to take away the power of the state supreme courts to decide what their state constitutions say. what am i supposed to do about that? >> and what is working against the republicans as well, if you have a state like new york, which got its own congressional map thrown out by the judges,

saying it was not fair, it was too partisan, and a state like new york saying we will redraw everything and make it all democrats that are going to go to congress. >> it could work against both parties, as you note. but getting rid of state supreme court's role here, interpreting their own state constitutions, i don't think anyone thinks that's good for democracy. republicans and the conservative movement in particular, they're very much in favor of states' rights, except when they're not. that is at the crux of their movement, right? that's at the crux of dobbs, for example, that states should have the rate to decide what abortion law is, except now. >> what about the argument in north carolina in particular, that this is a place that has had multiple congressional maps thrown out over multiple years, and they're always fighting about these congressional maps. >> yes, i mean i think that that also cuts both ways. to lisa's point, it is certainly the case that you can't really rely on text and history and how elections were run at the founding, because we live in a

different moment, right? i mean, a., there was no time, place and manner rules for elections at the founding. but as you say, elections have become the hot button issue. it's a way for parties to entrench power, and while there are certainly versions of that that go back to the founding, i think it's certainly true that north carolina is kind of a natural experiment in what happens when you get into high level fights between state supreme courts and state legislatures about who is drawing the maps. that's why this feels existential. >> jake, not to keep you waiting on, this bus justice kagan said today the theory would free state legislatures to engage in the, quote, most extreme form of gerrymandering. what would congress look like if that was okay? >> if it is possible to imagine, which i think it is impossible from, for us to imagine this, given the current state of affairs, it would be more partisan. there's no question about that. i mean i would say that, you

know, probably a view i shouldn't express but will anyway, redistricting and gerrymandering is probably the number one driver of partisanship on capitol hill. people go home to their districts as drawn right now and they are pushed to their extremes by very tightly-drawn maps, and very tightly-drawn lines, where they are around people who are just like them, from a partisan point of view, from every point of view. and that pushes people to the extremes. so if you have legislatures, which as julia said at the top, are political entities, they draw the maps, and there's absolutely no check on them, legislatures and their friends in congress, both republicans and democrats, would draw maps that favor incumbents, that favor partisanship, that entrench power, and make the institution a lot more partisan. and again, we already see this, because there are already so many maps that are so horribly gerrymandered but imagine if there was no remedy to that,

none whatsoever, no state court that could say this has gone beyond what the constitution of the state would allow, i mean it would be a much worse institution, it would be a much more partisan institution. >> so how do lawmakers feel about this? because i've had conversations with lawmakers on both sides who said they hate gerrymandering and it forces them to behave a certain way, to espouse certain opinions, and that they then have a harder time dealing with in general elections, because the primaries are made up of such partisan voters, and i mean this is essentially that on overdrive. >> it is. but people like their districts, right? members of congress and incumbents like their districts, because they protect them by and large. yes, there are a small number of cases, not small, a moderate number of cases where they're tossed into primaries against more extreme forces. by and large, they win those contests. they have to spend money, they have to behave a certain way, and they have to fight for them,

but all that said, leaving aside the legal point of view, from a political point of view, gerrymandering is good for the incumbents. this falls on typical party lines. i mean it just does. this is an issue where republicans are falling in their predictable place, and democrats are falling in their predictable place, but again, i could tell you, having covered this place for more than a decade, i can't imagine it being worse than it is now, but without any check, any remedy from a court on the most extreme impulses of state legislatures, on both sides of the aisle, this would be a much more partisan charged institution. >> can't get worse until it does. dahlia, what about state electors? there was a big to-do during 2020 that the states had full authority over who they send to congress, as their official electors for the election. and there were arguments made that the courts koochb get involved in this, and the voters couldn't get involved in it either, that the states were the ones that had the authority. does this argument touch on

that? >> this case didn't squarely raise that. there's two different constitutional provisions, the electors clause, and the elections clause, and this one doesn't raise squarely the issue of whether states can do what they were being asked to do in 2020, which was send a bunch of state electors. but in elena kagan's list of the one that you just heard about from lisa, the possible outcomes, she did say it could even include that. because i think there's a sense that if the court were to bless what north carolina ceased to do here, it is almost impossible to see that it wouldn't be inevitable that the same argument will come back, this time about electors. >> the argument might come back, but aren't there federal laws that would override that? >> i'm not sure that there are. i mean michael, a noted conservative judge, co-counsel

today, said that the argument is effectively a one-two punch for 2024. first, we get the supreme court to adopt this independent state legislature doctrine. the second thing that you do is ensure that the holes in the electoral counteract, that's the statute that john eastman and donald trump were effectively trying to exploit, the second step is ensuring that those holes don't get plugged. amy klobuchar, others on the hill, are trying to do exactly that before the end of this congress. whether they succeed, still remains to be seen. >> really just i am so happy that i had you three here with me to go through all of the ramifications, what's at stake, what it all means, to explain what can feel like an arcane legal theory and make it not only interesting and understandable but also compelling to tell us why we need to matter. so thank you very much. and julia ainsley, who started us off, i appreciate it. everybody. still ahead, what senate democrats can learn from their victory in georgia that may help them in 2024. and it is being called one

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been able to defend every single incumbent senate seat in the midterm until now. the incumbent democrats from new york to hawaii were re-elected, among them four in very tight races in arizona, nevada, new hampshire, and georgia. both democrats and republicans are already looking at how history was made and how they can potentially do do it themselves, especially since democrats have a difficult map on their hands just two years from now, in 2024. eight democrats are running in states that donald trump won by significant margins, or that joe biden won by less than 3 points. this is 2024. so the question democrats are asking is how can we do it again? and does donald trump potentially at the top of the ticket make it harder or easier? joining me from atlanta is nbc's vaughn hillyard. talk to me about what happened last night, and how warnock was able to pull this off. was it just because some might

argue walker was a bad candidate? >> let's start on the democratic side if we may. republicans even acknowledged that raphael warnock was about the best candidate that the state of georgia's democratic party could have constructed. he's everything. he literally is the preacher at martin luther king's church and somebody over the last two years was able to have some successes and key hold up from capitol hill to the voters of georgia. and when you're looking at some of the democrats that are running, jon tester, and sherrod brown in ohio and joe manchin will be the tricky one in west virginia. and kyrsten sinema will likely face a democratic primary in the state of arizona. but by and large, each of those democrats, they're all solid messages here that are going to be able to lock in 2024, making a case that they have had democratic legislative victories. we expect the next two years to be held up a little bit more with the republicans in control of the house. but of course, the other equation of this is who is playing in the other ball club. and if you have a basketball team of a bunch of folks who

would prefer to jack up three-pointers, it is going to be tougher to win the game. and that's where republican voters will have to make the decision, what type of players they want on their team. they went with election deniers who were very much founded on full outrage and look, they suffered the consequences this year as a result. >> that is because, though, in the primary, donald trump's endorsement was the deal, those are the hard core republican voters, a lot of whom still feel a lot of fealty to donald trump. does donald trump's influence wane over the next year and a half before the next round of primaries? maybe. but if he still has a lock on that, how do republicans move away from those sort of candidates? >> that's going to be the question. because look at the candidates that chose to run here in 2022, on the republican side. donald trump was able to guarantee a slate of candidates, stardom, fame, recognition, and a built-in following of millions

of folks, not only in their state but around the country. and suddenly the likes of herschel walker was relevant again on the national team. not unlike since i had days of playing football in georgia. mehmet oz, relevant again, not seen since a celebrity tv doctor, and kari lake in phoenix, that is what donald trump can continue to guarantee, coming off a week in which he suggested there could be a termination of the u.s. constitution, he still has a following of millions of americans. now, the question is are there enough republican voters who are able to get an indication to other types of candidates willing to take a plunge against that guaranteed backdrop that trump is still, even as we head into 2023, able to provide republican potential candidates for the u.s. senate. >> vaughn, you have been so entrenched in campaign politics for the past six years, that you are frankly unparalleled. chi ask you any question right now, and you will give me a smart and informative answer.

>> appreciate it. >> thank you very much. and back with us, is central news co-founder at msnbc contributor jake sherman, speaking of smart people week like to have around, thanks for coming back. let's speak about the candidates for re-election in 2024. we have them on the screen. some are in tough places. sherrod brown, ohio seems to be trending more and more red. what does this look like in 2024? >> it is a very good question. does brown even run again? that's one question that democrats are asking all the time. he has been in congress for a very long time. he was in the house before he was in the senate. i was recently in ohio, where a republican that i was talking to saying he was a smart politician and he won't run again. i don't think that is necessarily the case. he is a democrat who can run in ohio. who did win in 2018 against a not great candidate. listen, as with all of these races, katy, and we saw this last night, i'm going to bring

this back to this year, if you have bad candidates, you could win. if you have bad republican candidates and good democratic candidates are going to win. mitch mcconnell said time and time again, we need good candidates. candidates matter. effectively insinuating that they didn't have good candidates. so if other puts up somebody like josh mandell who lost a primary this time, lost a general in 2018, could sherrod brown win? yes, it is completely feasible. i think that's possible. the big question to me, a couple of big questions, number one is joe manchin running again, he has hinted for years that he might want to be governor again, i don't know if he wants to be governor again, he is still very cagey about whether he will run once again. that's a big question. in pennsylvania, bob casey. the question then becomes with bob casey and the democratic base, does john fetterman pull him to the left a ton, making it difficult for him to win in the general election. bob casey is a known entity, a

known quantity in pennsylvania politics. there is a ton of variables here. and mitch mcconnell always says something interesting, katy. don't fall in love with the map. meaning the map is not all that matters. money matters. candidates matter. that pulls for democrats right now. yes, they have a very difficult map in 2024, that does not mean it's over for them. it there is a long time between here and then. >> so donald trump at the top of the ticket, help or hurt? >> i don't think it helps. i mean donald trump has lost every election besides 2016. he lost in '18, lost in '20, lost the senate in 2022 with a bunch of garbage candidates that republican leadership did not like. so i can't imagine it is a big plus. i can tell you that every conversation i have up here, right now, republicans are getting less and less eager to answer for donald trump. that's been the case since 2017. but you know, these are famous last words. but i don't think it helps. i just don't. >> he lost the popular vote in 2016 as well.

>> correct. >> what about joe biden, joe biden hurt or help? >> i think it some places helps. i have no idea whether joe biden will run again. i don't know that anybody does. and i will say, i mean the white house takes a lot of credit for this year's election, i think fairly, because joe biden has a very good legislative record. again, the republicans didn't have much of a message. but this was, i mean this race, i mean this is trite and this is probably cliche, but democrats won all of these races individual ry. we track these very closely. we track what they're saying back home on tv, and when they go home, they were running on their accomplishments, some of which joe biden was a big part in, some of which he was not any part in. so tough to say for me. >> over/under on the number of judges appointed in the next two years? >> i think today the senate confirmed the 91st judge to a lifetime posting. that's a huge amount of people. i think that the senate is going to be a doing a lot of what we call up here the personnel

business, a lot of confirmations of judges and different appointments because there's not going to be a ton of legislation that moves through this institution. >> it will be a lot faster to push through those nominations when we have a committee that now has a majority of democrats instead of just 50-50. jake sherman, thank you very much for coming back. >> thanks. and the trump organization has been found guilty on multiple counts of tax fraud, with the manhattan d.a. saying it suggests donald trump's legal troubles are far from over. and dozens of far right extremists have been arrested in what is being called the biggest counter-terrorism operation in germany's history. what authorities say they have planned. and what it had to do with q-anon. you've put your dreams on hold. remember this? but i spoke to our advisor, and our vanguard investments are on track. “we got this, babe.” so go do what you love.

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choose change, california, and find medically proven treatment options at choosechangeca.org. 25 people were arrested in one of the largest anti-terrorism raids in germany, some 3,000 police officers conducted more than 100 searches across germany this morning, arresting suspects who were allegedly plotting to violently overthrow the government and leaders, and officials say the members of the unnamed terrorist

group were motivated by a range of far right conspiracy theories, including q-anon. members included german noble, a judge, and german military veteran. joining me is claudio, what does q-anon have to do with this? >> hey, katy, this was a group, the federal prosecutor in germany said, among them, far right extremists, anti-semitic extremists and people who believe in conspiracy theories that signal those swayed by q-anon. one is the federal state in germany is controlled by foreign powers, and therefore, it is illegitimate, which is what most of the members of this group believed, and they belong to, or support a movement called the reich-berger movement in germany

and what they wanted to do according to the prosecutor is violently overthrow the government, and to replace it with one led by the ring leader who was also arrested, and a bit of an unlikely ring leader, a 71-year-old aristocrat, and the descendant of the german royal family that ruled over parts of germany for hundreds of years, until the beginning of the 20th century. now, the prosecutor also said that among the people were a militia armed group, made up of veterans that used to serve in the german armed forces, and also an active soldier. and that's why prosecutors believe they were thankful to move in before they could carry out the violent coup plot. >> they are expected in court today, and expected again tomorrow. any word about what happened in court today? >> no, there's no word on what happened in court. the only statements that were issued by the authorities were the ones by the prosecutor, and

the german interior minister, who said there will be zero tolerance on any form of terrorism, and also he talked about the abyss of the terror threat, and also saying that the authorities are looking into potential connections and leads between those who were arrested and russia. >> claudio lavanga, thank you very much. and the white house is focusing on combatting a rise in anti-semitism, which the anti-defamation league says has reached crisis levels. doug emhoff had a group of reform, conservative and jewish faith, pushing for national strategies saying the u.s. is facing an epidemic of hate. >> we cannot normalize this. we all have an obligation to condemn these vial actions. we must all, all of us, we

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against the trump organization, for dodging taxes, donald trump is vowing to appeal. the manhattan district attorney is promising that this was only one step, one, in a, quote, ongoing investigation. and new york a. g. letitia james is applauding the verdict as she continues her own lawsuit against trump, three of his kids and long time accountant allen weisselberg. joining me is nbc's tom winter. tom, bring us up to speed. >> there is a whole host of things that have concluded for the former president, and as you kind of alluded to, there are a couple of things that are on his radar going forward, so putting side the special counsel's investigation involving january 6th and mar-a-lago, documents, that's a lot to put aside, and then putting aside any potential case in georgia, in new york state, in new york city, he does still face some legal exposure. at this point, entirely civil, in that lawsuit being brought by attorney general letitia james, having to do with his properties in new york state, and a whole

wide-ranging allegation of fraud and misstatements to choose from, but that is a civil matter, and nobody's going to be hands cuffed over that. the manhattan district attorney's office, they have been conducting a multi-year investigation and were the first to get the former president's taxes, as you are well aware, and as we well discussed, i think it has been some time that we've heard about any sort of overt steps taken in this supposed ongoing criminal investigation. we haven't heard about anybody being brought before a grand jury. as a matter of fact, the grand jury expired. the term expired, i should say, back in march. and then we haven't heard about any new subpoenas or any other requests for information that have gone out over the past six to nine months or so. that doesn't mean that things are happening behind the scenes that we're not aware of, but there has been no indication, and no reporting to that effect. there are two potential avenues that we've seen reports about, which is looking into the payments made to stormy daniels,

through michael cohen, and then also a potential look at other misstatements and fraud and continuing forward with the investigation into trump personally, but as i alluded to, there have been no new steps taken in that, and it is difficult to figure out what the state law violation would be for the district attorney, when we're talking about a presidential election, which is of course entirely federal, and it involves federal finance crimes, campaign finance crimes, i should say, as well as a federal election. so not sure what the nexus is to new york and having a hard time finding legal experts that can guide me to that as well. so that's where things stand going forward, katy. we'll have to watch this closely, as you know. but it is a pretty big chapter that has been closed here, and obviously, closing, it appears for the moment anyway, allen weisselberg's continuing corporation, as he moves toward sentencing sometime next year. >> thank you very much. let's bring in former

assistant district attorney for manhattan, and we are talking about what might happen, the nexus, excuse me me if i start coughing, i'm trying to hold it back, but there are headlines about matthew conengelo, a former justice department lawyer fired by your old office. do you think there is anything to read into it? >> it is probably not a small discrete matter but fairly extensive and i think it means there is an ongoing investigation. >> and let's go back and forth with the manhattan d.a. about whether they're pursuing anything, you can clear up, and i know you're not still working in the office but can you look from the outside and say here is what is going on. >> if i were working in the office, i would be silent. >> you wouldn't be sitting here. >> of course not. and it is right to say, which tom said, he hasn't heard

anything. and prosecutors are allowed to speak through indictments. and it is not surprising that we haven't heard anything. and an investigation could be ongoing, even if that grand jury ended, another grand jury could exist and information could be gathered. so it is really almost impossible to see through that, that kind of opaque wall. >> so donald trump wasn't named in the lawsuit that was just, that they just lost, but does he have any potential criminal exposure beyond that? is that indicated. i know the defense attorneys brought him up in closing statements, which i thought was so interesting, they were saying that this was allen weisselberg who did this, allen weisselberg was the greedy one, this wasn't donald trump, this was allen weisselberg, and they tried to pin it all on him. what did you make of them bringing donald trump himself in into this and not just the organization. >> right, i think the line was this is allen weisselberg for allen weisselberg or something like that. that opened it up i think for the prosecutor to say no, it wasn't. it wasn't just allen

weisselberg, the prosecution had proof there were others and even though they didn't pin it on the trump family, the crimes were part of the organization. >> and how do you say the organization and not just the man running it? >> the organization is an abstract thing, and it acts through the people within it, but we have laws that say, you know, you're essentially trying to get at, when is a crime so pervasive and when is the culture within an organization so corrupt that we can then charge the organization itself with a crime, making it such that people look at that company and the collateral consequences because it isself a kind of a criminal enterprise. >> donald trump has argued it is a witch hunt and unfairly targeted because of politics and basically if you open anybody's books, you would find ways to prosecute them. >> i certainly hope not. as a former prosecutor, we were hope nath financial system was fair and that people, small

businesses and individuals had the same shot as these big organizations, and that they weren't committing these sorts of crimes. but the fact that there are other people doing it is not an excuse for doing it yourself. and if the prosecution stumbles upon criminal activity, it is perfectly appropriate for them to bring those charges. >> what about the -- switching gears now, talking about the mar-a-lago documents case, because there is news from the "washington post" about how lawyers for trump found at least two items marked classified after an outside team hired by trump searched a storage unit in west palm beach use, used by the former president, and it is not the same site, it is not mar-a-lago, it is a palm beach storage facility. >> i mean well, beyond the obvious response, which is it is kind of shocking that his own lawyers, after six months, don't know where these documents are, or even that they exist, and that they haven't fully complied with the subpoena, you know, i

think those documents raise the same questions that all of the other documents do, which is did he know about them, did he know that they were in those locations, what was he planning to do with them, and why did he keep them? >> because they argue this is just an example that donald trump didn't know about it, they are in a storage unit and no one really knew, it was all packed up in a hurry and they were trying to get out of the white house. >> i think they will try to do that but at a certain point, the scope, the number of documents that were involved, the number that were found near him in mar-a-lago, his desk, and his office, and i think it makes it quite hard to make that argument, maybe one, but how could you make that argument and not all of these documents? >> we will see. it will keep making that argument. and it is going to keep moving forward. we'll see what the d.o.j. and the special counsel decide at some point. rebecca, thank you very much. what one ceo said happened at his company after putting a four-day workweek to the test. . ]

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lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. join the millions already taking ozempic®. ask your health care provider about the ozempic® tri-zone. announcer: you may pay as little as $25 for a 3-month prescription. i was born on the south side of chicago. it has been a long road, but now i'm working for schwab. i love to help people understand the world through their lens and invest accordingly. you can call us christmas eve at four o'clock in the morning. we're gonna always make sure that you have all of the financial tools and support to secure your financial future. that means a lot for my community and for every community. you will love this story. what if every weekend was a long weekend? there is a growing movement to make a four-day workweek the new

standard and the results of the six-month pilot program, part of the study by three major universities are promising. for companies that participated in the trial, revenue increased and the health and well-being of the employees improved. joining me is adam ross, whose four-day workweek was adopted permanently. >> can i come work for you? >> my pleasure. >> thanks for being here. i love my job. >> and why did you you were going to make every weekend a three-day weekend. >> it was during the pandemic, when we saw the huge amount of pressure that staff workers were put under, the blurring of the lines between work and home, and having to do home schooling, and all of these things, we saw people getting burned out. we saw people were really struggling, so we decided that we were going to introduce what we called family fridays which was effectively a four and a half day week, and after a few months of seeing this, trying

this, we saw the results, the company results were excellent, and people were, you know, they were much happier, and much healthier, and they really loved the benefit, and we decided, what elements of this enforced pandemic conditions do we want to continue going forward? what is our new vision for work? and we decided we would try a four-day week. and we gave the company six months to plan and prepare for the implementation of this. and 80 volunteers came forward from across the world to really turn our vision into a reality, and we started january 2021, and the results have been absolutely phenomenal. >> so we're looking at this right now, and this might be surprising to a lot of people, revenues up 37.55%. i mean you started making more money when you went down to four days a week. how does that work? >> i mean it's incredible. it's counter-intuitive. we saw our performance improve.

record performance. we saw our customer satisfaction scores improve. and at the same time, employee engagement was up. employee churn went down. and fewer sick days. and also, the other things that we measured, the productivity, it is hard to measure productivity but the things that we could measure, we again saw the productivity either stayed the same or actually got better. and so i think the conclusion really is that if you give people a healthy work/life balance, and put your trust in people to execute that benefit in the best possible way, the results speak for themselves. they're really phenomenal. >> we have all of this technology now, and every year, the technology gets better, and it is intended to save us time and make our lives easier, but because of the technology, we're more plugged in than ever, and more tied to work and in the hours that we're off, and the pandemic certainly put up more boundaries, but it also kind of

mushed a lot of the boundaries, because for some people you were always at work, because you were always reachable. do you find that technology, having access to technology, has meant that you're more able to do this? has it made getting things done faster and easier than maybe it would have been 20 years ago? >> undoubtedly. i think that the truth is that some of this technology that was meant to make our lives easier, but actually before, as i said before, it has further blurred the lines between your sort of work life and your personal life, and we felt that there was a -- that this is a moment to restore that balance, and it's true, we've been able to look at things like automation, working more efficiently, introducing new tools and tech, to make this possible, and really saying to our people, and you know, this is a huge incentive, you have to use all of the technology, all of the tools that we provide you, to make sure that this can

happen, and they responded really brilliantly, and so we couldn't have done that without the advent of technology and hopefully as time goes by, and with the introduction of things like artificial intelligence, it makes things like this even more possible perhaps for other businesses and other industries. >> do you get paid the same with four days instead of five? >> we do. everyone is paid the same, 1400 people all over the world. and the rule is everybody must benefit and it has to be a fair system, and everyone is regularly asked if managers are implementing it properly and people are taking the benefit and it is extremely effective. >> ceo adam, thank you. four-day workweek. thanks for joining us. it is exciting stuff. we're happy to see innovators out there proving that you can be happier and more productive

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