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hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the very future of our election system hangs in the balance today on a knife's edge today in what has been described as the most important case for american democracy in the 2 1/2 centuries since -- this morning, the united states supreme court heard oral arguments in a case called moore v harper. it is vital to understand just how fundamental an impact the decision in this case could have on our lives, our kids' lives and their kids' lives. at the center of this argument is a radical legal theory, one that is supported by john eastman. he, of course, is the architect of donald trump's attempted coup, and one that prominent conservative jurist michael ludig says is a key part of the

republican blueprint to steal the 2024 presidential election. it's called the independent state legislature theory, put simply. it is a constitutional interpretation, a fringe, dubious doctrine that suggests that state legislatures have special, unchecked, nearly absolute and unlimited power over federal elections. it's an authority unconstrained by state courts or state constitutions. so, what does that mean? well, to understand the stakes, consider how we got here. when republicans in north carolina came up with a blatantly gerrymandered congressional map, that state's supreme court said it violated the state constitution and they threw it out. north carolina's legislature argued back that that court had no authority to do so, and so here we are. talking about the independence state legislature theory being in front of the highest court in the land, the u.s. supreme court. try to envision what accepting

that argument and that theory could mean. gerrymandering would just be the appetizer. from the brennan center for justice, this, quote, the nightmare scenario is that a legislature displeased with how an election official on the ground has interpreted her state's election laws, would invoke the theory as a pretext to refuse to certify the results of a presidential election and instead select its own slate of electors. does that sound familiar? any failed insurrection come to mind? it's why today's arguments in front of a 6-3 super conservative supreme court were so important. because while we avoided catastrophe in 2020, barely, we just might not be so lucky next time. that threat to our democracy rooted in a fringe and extreme legal theory is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. mary mccord is here, former top official in the justice department's national security division. also joining us, former maryland

congresswoman donna edwards. and former rnc chairman michael steele is here. donna and michael are both msnbc contributors. michael, i want to start with you, because this comes from sort of the sick and power starved maniacal fringes of my former party, one you are still trying to resurrect, i think. talk about why the right thinks they need it. >> because at this stage, it's -- it's a layered process, nicolle, if you step back and think wholistically and look at this wholistically, how the -- this radical mind-set has evolved inside the gop, from narratives around abortion to narratives around constitutional theories that impact the second amendment, the 14th amendment, we've seen some of that play out in how they've gone after affirmative action, for example. all this the layered in an

effort to construct a hardened conservative, which is nontraditional republican, i might add, view of the role of the states. it is taking states rights to a whole other level, where it is absolute. and this idea that state legislatures controlled presumably by republicans, they envision all state legislatures being controlled by republican majorities, because god forbid they do something like this and the democrats decide to play the game and flip the script on them. that's not contemplated. but this idea of having this majority of republican legislatures who would then be the final arbiter of whether or not, particularly and specifically at the presidential election level, they like or do not like the outcome of those -- of those -- the election in their state, they then have the

power to say so. they then not only have that power to say it, but then to act on it. so, this is all part of a ongoing effort that has been forming for some time in quiet corners that now has, under the opening of trumpism in the party, into a full frontal assault on the constitution, the rule of law, and certainly the rights we have as citizens. >> and michael steele, what are the stakes for the united states supreme court in that before a decision is even made, it is clearly branded as a fringe legal theory embraced by the architect of the coup plot, so says republican adam kinzinger. what are the stakes in terms of the legitimacy of the court, made up of justices who give very loud speeches complaining mightily about the lack and plunging levels of approval for its sort of credibility and lack

of attachment to the political parties in the u.s.? >> well, it's huge, nicolle, it's absolutely huge. not only is this baseless in terms of constitutional theory and law, it is -- it is one of these things that is -- it is so hard to reconcile constitutionally, that it puts the supreme court in a very untenable position. first off, to think that they would even entertain this kind of discussion, to adam kinzinger's point, but then, next level, what do you think happens if you -- if you suddenly give life to this theory within the constitution itself? and that's something that i think, when you hear the oral arguments here and you look at the approach that's taken, you really hope that someone like a justice roberts, who, say what

you may about how he may have come down on other cases, is in the final analysis an absolutist about the integrity of the court, keeping the court as far removed from political shenanigans, and certainly the politics that we see of the day, as much as possible. so, my hope is that, okay, they got this case in front of the court, the court now will look at it and go, you know what? we're just not going to do this. because they know the ramifications. certainly someone like justice roberts knows the ramifications, so, i hope that he's able to cobble together a 5-4 majority to send this thing into the hell pit that it belongs in, constitutionally, and keep it away from those states that would absolutely go rogue on something like this. >> okay, so, let's dive into what happened today at the u.s. supreme court.

justice kagan said, this is a theory with big consequences. it would say that if a legislature engages in the most extreme forms of gerrymandering, there is no state constitutional remedy for that, even if the courts think it's a violation of the constitution. it would say that legislators could enact all manner of restrictions on voting, get rid of all kind of voter protections. it might allow the legislatures to insert themselves and give themselves a role in the certification of elections and the very way that election results are calculated. and here she is, in her own voice, in court today. >> and in all these ways, i think what might strike a person is that this is a proposal that gets rid of the normal checks and balances on the way big governmental decisions are made in this country.

and you might think that it gets rid of all those checks and balances at exactly the time when they are needed most. because legislators, we all know, have their own self-interest. they want to get re-elected. and so, there are countless times when they have incentives to suppress votes, to dilute votes, to negate votes, to prevent voters from having true access and true opportunity to engage the political process. >> and she said, you might think it might get rid of those checks and balances at exactly the time they are needed most. what do you think of that? >> well, it's interesting, because she didn't take that next step and really sort of speak about the polarization that we have in america right now, but i think that's what many of us really heard in those words. and i think some of the things she was warning about are also things that you heard neal

katyal, who is arguing to those opposed to this broad view of the independent state legislature doctrine, i think he referreded to this as the blast raise yus. the ramifications would be really enormous. i want to bring a little bit of hope to the conversation, though, because i listened to all three hours of the argument, i and my team hat georgetown filed a brief in the case on behalf of a group of former pennsylvania government officials and judges, republicans and democrats, so, we watched it very closely and i did not hear a majority of the court in favor of this broad view of the independent state legislature theory. i know it is really, really risky to ever make -- to ever speculate about outcomes based on oral argument, but just based on the questions, i think -- i really did not hear a majority who seemed willing to go that far. i heard the chief justice, as michael steele was indicating, as well as justice barrett, as

well as justice kavanaugh, and, of course, as well as justice sotomayor, brown jackson, and kagan, asking pointed questions of the petitioner and the more conservative justices asking questions about, what would the standard be for reviewing, for federal court review of a state court's review of redistricting for compliance with state constitutional provisions? so, you wouldn't even need to be asking that question if the -- those justices believed that there was no such thing as state constitutional review for compliance with state constitution -- i mean, state court review for compliance with state constitutional provisions, right? but instead, they were grappling for a standard. now, the standard is very tiff cult to find, and, in fact, i think neal described it as stratospheric and i think judge ludig has pointed out that

really there would have to be a federal interest to meddle with state supreme court interpretation of their own state constitution, because that's something that was just imported in at the founding into the constitution, into the elections clause. it existed under the articles of confederation, it was, you know, state constitutions included it after ratification, so, there's no support for not having judicial review, but i think -- i think the tenor of the questions here give us some hope that this is not the end of democracy. >> i will never ban hope from the airwaves. that said, i think the spouse of at least one of the justices seemed pretty into theories like this, in her own written communications to members of the state legislatures in at least three states, i believe she wrote to legislators in arizona and at least a couple of other battleground states, and so i -- i didn't listen to all three

hours, i listened to snippets, but i will give all the airtime to hope on this show. let me play this for you, donna edwards, this is eastman, who sort of was the first person to put this into the political conversations about the architecture of the attempted 2020 coup plot to overturn the election and took some folks a long time to call it that, but that's precisely what it was. let me play this. >> eastman prepared a memo attempting to justify this strategy, which was circulated to the trump white house, rudy giuliani's legal team, and state legislators around the country. and he appeared before the georgia state legislature to advocate for it publicly. >> you could adopt a slate of electors yourselves and when you add in the mix of the significance sworn affidavits and video evidence of outright

election fraud, i don't think it's just your authority to do that, i think you have a duty to protect the integrity of the election here in georgia. >> so, donna, what's so sick about that, and cynical and sinister, is that there was no -- he talks about statistical anomalies, he's in conservative circles viewed as a legitimate legal mind, which is sad in and of itself. he's talking about video evidence. no single court found that any of those were real or true or held up. he's talking about outright election fraud, fox news is being sued because there wasn't any election fraud outright or anywhere else. my concern is that you have this theory floating out there and it does their second favorite thing. if you can't pull off the coup, you throw things into chaos and then you sow discontent and create a situation or a scenario for violence. this isn't farfetched.

this is what happened on january 6th. these all feel like, you know, choose your own adventure to several unrest. >> well, and look at what has happened. they took a fringe legal theory over the last 20 years and have advanced that into the mainstream so that it's in front of the united states supreme court. i mean, what eastman has articulated, we know never came to fruition in the courts. all of those allegations were negated and -- and yet this advancement continues. my concern is, going back into 2019, the supreme court had already said that there was no real federal review of partisan gerrymandering, so, if there's no federal review and now you throw out the possibility of state review, it essentially allows renegade legislatures across the country to have complete control of the election.

what is -- what's the ramification for a vote whole wants to challenge under a state constitution the rules that have been rewrite by state legislatures? and so, while i agree with mary, a lot of the questioning today, i listened to most of it, actually gave some hope that perhaps the court is going to try to strike some ground where there is a continued role for the -- for the state supreme court, state courts, but i do worry that the continued advancements of these legal theories really feed into the conspiracy theorists who then begin to undermine even further our system. >> and mary, i know this is your expertise, i want your reaction to that. i want to play, though, i was listening when neal katyal got justice alito, who's had one heck of a week, he talked about children in kkk costumes, but today, we got his thoughts about lollapalooza.

let me play that. >> and lastly, and most importantly, the dog never barked. the federalist papers have three different federalist papers on everything he's been talking about, about the elections clause, not a person said anything like that they were trying to create this strange animal. this isn't looking like into a crowd and trying to pick out your friends. this is like looking into the lollapalooza crowd and picking out everyone who speaks 15 languages. >> i don't know about lollapalooza. >> um -- so, i mean, lots to say there, but you know, to your point, neal seemed to have -- seemed to win the room, not just in that comment, but in a lot of the arguments he was making. >> yeah, you know, he was incredibly well prepared, so was elizabeth and don, and they were excellent. i would say, i actually even thought the attorney for the petitioner did a commendable job really under-taking a hour long of withering questions, but they were withering.

they spent nearly the whole hour on him trying to convince the justices that the line between what would be permissible for judicial review was between procedure and substance, something that has vexed the court for, you know, centuries and something that i think -- either justice kagan or soto mayor said, that's a legal morass we're not going to get into. i would also said to this background that we're talking about here, tonight, you know, there's no question that the extreme view of this theory is something that fields into conspiracy theories and, you know, today's argument was about the elections clause, it's about state legislature being given the power under the u.s. constitution to determine the manner of choosing senators and representatives. and that manner includes redistricting after the census. the other, you know, extreme theory that john eastman was talking about relates to the electors clause, the clause of the constitution that gives the

state legislature the authority to choose presidential electors. and, you know, at the founding, the state ledge slas just chose. but way a long time ago, every state determined to choose them based on the popular vote. and so this theory that eastman has been propounding and that as others have said, conspiracy theorists and the most extreme fringe of the right has gripped ahold of is this notion that, hey, couldn't we even after an election, even after the popular vote, have the state legislature said, and this is, i think, what ginny thomas was encouraging in her emails to arizona and others was, they would just say, we think there was fraud, we're not going to follow the popular vote, we're going to put our own slate of electors up for the candidate of our choosing. no, i think that would raise significant constitutional

problems under the due process clause and equal protection clauses and that would be challenged immediately, but nevertheless, that's the theory, right? and that's what's been proposed, and i will say, we keep using the word fringe. we're really talking about fringe here. this should not be a political conversation. i mean, judge ludig, an extremely conservative judge, encourage all your viewers to read what he's written about this -- there is no basis in the history of the constitution or in its test for this fringe theory. >> it is extremely fringe, but it also comes to the thomas family dunner table, i mean, it's so fringe that there are only nine members of the united states supreme court and it's so fringy, justice thomas' wife is into it. this is a tweet from robert reich. got ginni thomas used the independent state legislature theory in her efforts to pressure state lawmakers to overturn the 2020 election results. this theory is central to a case

before the supreme court tomorrow." i didn't see any indication that clarence thomas wasn't there today or had recused. this is also about, it's about a fringe legal theory, it's about one unsuccessfully deployed by one of the nine justices' spouse and it's about clarence thomas there sitting there today listening to these arguments. >> well, i mean, this is actually another example of why we need ethical rules to apply to the united states supreme court. clarence thomas should have to recuse himself to this, but that's left his to discretion. i have to tell you, one thing that it raised for me today is on the political side, the importance of congress passing the electoral count act, so that we don't go down that line where state legislators have the opportunity to upend the electors that are chosing to certify for a presidential election. and so, it's imperative that congress get that done now to

try to put some, at least some boundaries around what this state legislators can do. presuming, of course, we hope, that the supreme court does not embrace this, as we described, fringe theory. >> donna edwards, thank you very much for starting us off on this today. mary and michael, stick around a little bit longer. when we come back, after a stunning court authorized search of mar-a-lago, and more than a year of stonewalling by the ex-president's legal team, even more classified documents have been found. the revelation that could have major consequences for the criminal probe into the ex-president's handling of documents. that's next. plus, the jan 6th select committee's final chapter. new reporting on just who might be the subject of a criminal referral to the justice department. and later in the program, a group of right wing extremists peddling conspiracies about qanon and a so-called deep state are caught trying to overthrow the government.

sound familiar? foiled plot that reveals the scope of the threat posed by right wing extremism. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. the south side of chicago. it has been a long road, but now i'm working for schwab. i love to help people understand the world through their lens and invest accordingly. you can call us christmas eve at four o'clock in the morning. we're gonna always make sure that you have all of the financial tools and support to secure your financial future. that means a lot for my community and for every community. i grew up an athlete, i rode horses... i really do take care of myself. i try to stay in shape. that's really important, especially as you age. i noticed after kids that my body totally changed. i started noticing a little pudge. so i took action! coolsculpting targets, freezes and eliminates treated fat for good.

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the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪ look what the cat dragged in. the prequel is prettrust me.too. you call that cute? ooh! with the paws? with the hat? there's brand new reporting today that reveals that, believe it or not, i know you'll believe it, there's more. more classified documents in the ex-president's possession. this time, at a trump storage unit in florida. the news only adds to what we know about the ex-president's relentless, vast efforts to keep documents that do not belong to him. it comes even after his lawyers signed a statement declaring

there were no classified documents left. and even after the high profile fbi search of mar-a-lago found that not to be the case. from "the washington post" reporting, they were first to report on these documents, quote, lawyers for former president trump found at least two items marked classified after an outside team hired by trump searched a storage unit in west palm beach, florida, used by the former president. that's according to people familiar with the matter. those items were immediately turned over to the fbi, according to those people. the search was one of at least three searches conducted by an outside team of his properties of classified materials in recent weeks, after they were pressed by a federal judge to attest that they had fully complied with the may grand jury subpoena to turn over all materials bearing classified markings. joining us now, one of the reporters that broke that story. jackie, most americans are digging through storage units and drawers looking for gloves

and winter hats and christmas decorations, donald trump's lawyers are looking for state secrets. take us through your reporting. >> yeah, nicolle. this unusual set of circumstances between the justice department, the trump legal team and the d.c. circuit court ultimately cuminated in these searches conducted by an outside firm that was hired by trump's lawyers after a judge ordered them to fully comply with the may subpoena that the department of justice originally issued in order to try to get back these classified documents that they knew were in the possession of former president donald trump. this came after prosecutors and jay bratt, the head of counterintelligence, who really has been running point up until jack smith's appointment, on the investigation, had consistently repeated their concerns that the former president had yet to return all of these classified documents and that they were

worried that the search for the documents wasn't done as diligently as they would have liked. that ended up with, again, the former president's legal team hiring this firm, they first conducted a search at bed minister, they attested to judge howell they didn't find any documents there, they conducted a search at trump tower, and the most recent search being the search of this storage facility unit in palm beach where they found two documents, two items, rather, with classified markings, immediately returned them to the justice department, but does, i think, sort of capture that the mistrust here and the breakdown of trust between prosecutors and the trump legal team as they seek to get to the bottom of this, and ensure that the trump legal team is fully complying with all these court orders. >> michael steele, it seems that you'll never get that. trump has confessed to almost

all aspects of the crime. he's confessed to taking the documents, to saying i'm keeping them. i mean, the whole -- i wonder what you think of the asymmetry of american law enforcement trying to get back something that trump thinks is his. of course there's more. there's probably stuff shoved in his sock drawer, too. >> you're talking about the stuff that's stuffed in a sock drawer, i'm talking about the stuff that's in the hands of adversaries, that he's already given to people. >> maybe. >> that's not outside the realm of possibility, if not probability here. i -- this whole narrative, from the very moment this story broke, culminating to this point in jackie's reporting, just tells you how beneath the surface of all of this, you have the law enforcement feature, you have the justice department, you have lawyers, all doing their thing and donald trump beneath

the surface just going along, say, these are mine, i with do what i want with them. and no matter how much you tell him that's not the case he doesn't believe it, nor does he accept it. so, that means, to me, at least, there needs to be probably a more aggressive and broader review of what the possible storage places are, not just as hair a lago, in his new york place, the place here in virginia, wherever trump may have laid his head. you're bound to find a document or two at this point. so, i -- i think all of this just tells us that there's more going on here. there's going to be more discoveries. and unless those documents have already been dispensed with in some form or fashion. it really begs the question, what on earth made you think you

would keep these documents in the first place, why did you think you needed them? and the only logical conclusion one can come to is, well, you had other plans for these documents m and that's going to require a whole other level of conversation and discovery, once we figure out that we've got everything. if we ever get everything. >> mary, i think there was a sense, because this court-approved search happened right at the end of the summer's public hearings for the january 6th select committee, where their intention was to put into the public arena all the evidence of trump's criminality and state of mind in terms of plotting to overturn the results of an election he lost and this investigation was always presented as far more straightforward. what does it say that they're still looking doctor what does it indicate about the phase of the investigation that they are still dealing with trump's legal team and still looking for classified material? >> yeah, well, i think, you know, remember, ever since the beginning, there's been two

pieces of this. there's been the criminal investigation to just, you know, determine whether there's evidence sufficient to establish an actual espionage act violation for the mishandling of classified material, or obstruction of an investigation, but there's also been the intelligence review, and i think that, you know, what this shows is that there is a continued nervousness among our national security officials that they have tabs on all the potential classified information that may be improperly stored or, as michael said, potentially even, you know, be in the hands of adversaries. now, i don't have anything, you know, we haven't seen evidence of that yet, but i think when we still see the justice department coming back to the court, and the court they're coming back to is the chief judge here in the district of columbia, where that subpoena, that may subpoena was issued by a grand jury here in the district of columbia, this is not a judge in florida. when the justice department

keeps coming back and asking her to press the trump team to look more and to look more and she is pressing them, to me, that signals concern among our national security, you know, infrastructure, that they are worried about where other documents might be. and so, i think they're really trying to get to the bottom of this, and of course, that could also lead to additional evidence of the criminal charges, but that -- they just can't be certain that they have gotten everything. >> and mary, is it -- i mean, i -- that makes a whole lot of sense as part of the national security review and there's now been enough time to perhaps pick up chatter from places and ask questions about where certain information comes from and we don't know what we don't know on that front, but on the obstruction front, it's very clear that the lawyers now, i think it's kristina bob who had some exposure for attesting to not having any classified documents, i mean, is some of this building out our further probing the obstruction case, as well? >> i think it certainly is,

right? and it remains to be seen sort of what level of knowledge about what was in this storage unit, you know, who had what level of knowledge about what was in the storage unit, so, clearly, if gsa was involved, the general service administration, a branch of the government, was involved with trump's people in renting the storage unit for there to be certain documents from, i think it was from an office in virginia, you know, that leads one to think, okay, well, why was there ever anything in any classified information in an office in virginia to begin with, right? classified information has to be specially handled. and we know, i mean, we've now known for a long time is that former president trump, you know, completely disregarded all of the carefully crafted, you know, laws and regulations applicable to our national defense and our national secrets and classified information. and, you know, we know he was aware of it. there's no way you could be the

president and not be aware of it. we also know that his attorneys told him about it, yet we still see documents that apparently used to be in some office in virginia had no business being there and now are in some storage unit in florida. so, i think, yes, i think a piece of this will also be, what did he or those within his orbit know about this? and what was intentional? and was any of this done, you know, intentionally, to obstruct. that's unclear at this point. and i think kristina bob, you said, has some coupleability, and this firm that was hired, i would think they would be very, very careful about how they do their search, right? so that they don't get themselves into legal jeopardy, as well. >> it's like the story that keeps repeating itself. all right, you're all sticking with us. when we come back, we'll turn to the panel tasked with investigating the deadly capitol insurrection as it prepares one final blow to the architect of the plot. that would be donald trump.

in the form of a blockbuster final report, including their criminal referrals. that story, that reporting is next.

once upon a time, at the magical everly estate, landscaper larry and his trusty crew... were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. we continue to learn more and more every day from the january 6th select committee about what we and likely prosecutors at the justice department will be reading in the coming days in the form of their final report. we now know the criminal referrals to doj we discussed yesterday will be part of the

committee's final report, which must be submitted by new year's eve. nbc news reports that the committee could cast a wide net in its referrals to doj. quote, the committee could offer contempt of congress referrals for fellow members who have ilg nored its subpoenas for witnesses it believes lied to investigators and for individuals it believes attempted to intimidate witnesses in the probe. and here was committee member adam schiff earlier on what it means to send referrals to a doj that's in many ways led a parallel investigation. >> this is what we're discussing as we go into the last days of our work on this important investigation, and that is, what would the impact of our referrals be, if we make referrals, against whom and for what offenses? how much should we detail the evidence, knowing that the justice department has sources of evidence that we don't? in some ways, i think the information we provide will exceed that of the department. in other areas, they have more evidence than we do. >> wow. we're back with jackie, mary, and michael steele.

jackie, what do you understand to be on the table for the committee? >> yeah, nicolle, i echo that great reporting by haley and ryan, we've also heard that the committee could cast a potentially wide net. actually, i was just reading in my inbox that there is now increasing pressure from outside groups, people like states united, these entities, that are fighting for the preservation of democracy, to actually make criminal referrals that would implicate some of the lawyers involved with the efforts to overturn the results of the election. the letter i was just reading from states united actually calls for additional accountability next steps to hold nine attorneys for their involvement in the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. so, there is a wide range of actions that the committee could take when they do send these referrals over to the department of justice, which, in essence, are just suggests, since they do not carry legal weight, but come

with a mountain of evidence and are, as we've said in the past, sort of a prosecutorial road map for the justice department. sort of viewed as very strongly-worded suggestions that do hold, at least heft in the court of public opinion. we had also been told that the committee is holding onto some of the leftover string, i guess as journalists would call it, on members of congress who declined to comply with the subpoenas that were dolled out, for them to come to the committee to provide information about their knowledge of the former president's efforts to overturn the results of the election, so, we're also eagerly waiting on that information, even if it doesn't end up being a referral, necessarily, the final report is going to really be, i think, quite illuminating on some of these areas that we have really on scratched the surface on. >> so, michael steele, these are the lawmakers subpoenaed, jim jordan, scott perry, andy biggs, mo brooks, kevin mccarthy, and i

remember liz cheney talking about kevin mccarthy on fox news with chris wallace, i mean, there is substance to what kevin mccarthy has said publicly, i think some of it came out in the form of the tapes that the two "new york times" reporters wrote a book and covered that. but we don't know what we don't know about what those members were involved in. >> no, we don't. and we don't know necessarily how interwoven all of these conversations are, that sort of fill out a narrative around questions of really, was there a conspiracy, was there some level of coordination, you know, what do cell phone records really show us, tell us, what -- beyond what we already know in the public space, and i think it's -- i think it's always been for me quite telling that individuals who have worn on

their bibles, their family bibles as they stood in the chamber of the house, to take the oath of office to uphold not only their responsibilities as members of congress, but the constitution itself, who then in a moment like this would refuse to testify, refuse to tell us what they knew, tell us who they talked to, tell us the conversations they're having. this isn't national secrets. this is about -- this isn't about protecting our, you know, the codes for nuclear warheads and things like that. this is about, what do you know about members of the current -- then-current administration attempting a coup on the nation? we know from the phone records you had a call, we know that, jim jordan. you told us you had a call with the president. but oh, i don't know when it was, i don't remember actually -- really? i mean, so, the fact that these folks won't even get in front of authorities, whether they have,

you know, the power to -- to, you know, push forward legal consequences for them, or not, you are a sitting member of congress with information about an insurrection that occurred on our nation's capitol, which you were intimately involved in. you were in the chamber. so, yeah, i think the more this committee on its way out the door can bring pressure to bear, whether it's through the justice department or other means, as jackie just noted, other groups out there raising this concern, yeah. the lawyers, the congressmen and women, whomever had their fingerprint on this, i'm hoping that there's an appropriate accounting before the american people. because with we're due that. and i don't care, and especially since kevin mccarthy wants to be speaker of the house. dude, seriously? this is how you're going to run

the house? this is what we got to look forward to? chucking and dipping and diving from your responsibilities, giving the country what you know? i just think it's so telling right now at this moment, nicolle, that these members of congress still refuse to tell us what they know. >> i mean, mary, to michael's point and to the fact that we have a federal judge, judge carter, who said that the court finds that more likely than not that president trump attempted to obstruct the joint session of congress. the country does not commit to investigating and pursuing accountability for those responsible, the court fears january 6th will repeat itself. liz cheney said, i think there are multiple criminal offenses we are looking at. we've been clear about a number of criminal offenses that are likely at issue here. if the department of justice determines they have the evidence that we believe is there and they make a decision not to prosecute, that calls into question whether we are a nation of laws.

i know liz cheney throwing down the gauntlet isn't a legal maneuver, but it is certainly heard all around washington and all through doj. what is -- what are they bracing for in terms of being ready to receive all of the committee's evidence? >> well, i think that, you know, that's what the most significant things here, i think jackie alluded to this or maybe it was you, that with these referrals come a mountain of evidence, because the fact is, there's nothing that's been preventing the department from investigating based on things they learned through the house select committee hearings already. and as we know, they have an open investigation. the attorney general has just appointed a special counsel. but what they didn't have was all of the evidence that the special -- the house select committee has been compiling and, you know, obtaining through all these many, many months that it's been investigating. and so i expect that if they make a referral, that means they will send the evidence with it,

and that will be very useful for the department. it could be, as adam schiff says, the department has a whole lot of its own evidence, but that's okay, as a former prosecutor, give it all to me. give it all to me. and i expect that, you know, particularly now that we have a special counsel who is doing nothing but 24/7, you know, leading this investigation, i expect they will dive right into this and they will see how it fits into what they are already accumulating. now, i do want to be clear, you know, it doesn't mean anything, and i think jackie said this, too, in terms of, you know, there actually ultimately being indictments or charges, because the congress has no power to bring criminal charges, only the department of justice can do that under federal law, so, a referral is just this, hey, we have come up with come up with evidence of something we think might be evidence of a crime. because they can do this in a case that doesn't have high publicity like the house select committee hearings. they can do it in an investigation where the public is not paying attention.

they come up with evidence. department of justice, you might want to look at this. this is different. we know -- everybody knows what's being investigated and the department is well on its way. i'm very heartened to see that the house select committee will be sharing all of this evidence with doj. >> thank you so much for spending so much of the hour with us. we are grateful. up next, a national vigil for victims of gun violence in america tonight will feature a special guest, president joe biden. his appearance comes at a time when he is looking to renew his push for gun safety legislation. that's next.

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serving every address in america. the united states postal service. tonight, president joe biden will address the national vigil for all victims of gun violence. it will make him the first president in the ten years of the event to speak. the vigil honors all who have fallen victim to the ongoing epidemic of gun violence in america, a devastating toll that touches every community in our country. sadly, this year is the second highest on record for the number of mass shootings. at least 622 so far according to one count. let's bring in my colleague mike memoli. this is so personal for him. i know many activists feel a personal connection to him. tell me about how this came to be. >> reporter: it is hard to believe that it has been ten years since that horrible tragedy in new town,

connecticut, we lost 26 children in a searing moment for this country and really did raise the profile of gun safety as an issue of national importance that we see today. as the president is set to speak tonight to this group, i think it's also worth noting another milestone anniversary that the president himself will be commemorating this month, which is the 50th anniversary of the tragedy when he lost his first wife and his infant daughter in what was a formative moment, made him who he is today. in drawing on that experience, i think we will see two things tonight from the president. the first is, drawing on his own experience to know that these milestones, these anniversaries are so difficult for these families. i think he wants to be at this event to put his arm around these families, to talk and empathize on them, draw on that well of empathy that we have talked about over the years. the other thing is, he has talked about how he has tried to get through grief by finding purpose in life.

what we have seen in the ten years since new town is a gun safety movement in this country that has, if not matched, exceeded the power of the nra in terms of advocating for change. we see, i think, the president wanting to highlight the ways in which so many victims and families have found that purpose and found great success in the process. >> mike memoli, it's something you have reported out, that this president's fluency in the language of grief is such a touchstone for so many americans. it transcends partisan divides. it's one of his superpowers, not as a politician but as a human and a leader. this is right in line with all that you have reported on that front and shared with us. mike memoli, thank you for sharing that with us today. up next for us, dozens of right wing extremists have been arrested for plotting to storm the legislature and overthrow what they think and describe and describe as the deep state. we are not talking about january

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hi, again. it's 5:00 in new york. we turn to news from a country with the greatest threat to the homeland domestic far right extremist groups. there's a massive development to tell you about. 25 people were arrested on suspicion of planning to overthrow the government. members of an extremist group who believe their country is being run by a deep state, individuals who were influenced by qanon and other right wing

conspiracies who have taken part in protests against covid lockdowns, they were plotting to install a shadow government. it sounds familiar. we are not talking about the united states today. these arrests took place this morning in germany. according to prosecutors there, this group's mission was to, quote, overcome the existing state order in germany and to establish its own form of state. the outlines of which have been worked out. as for how this group felt that goal could be reached, they were apparently planning an armed attack on germany's parliament building and were prepared to use violence, including possibly killing state representatives. all of these circumstances are similar to the forces we have seen emerge in our country. it came to a head on january 6. a german lawmaker drew parallels to the attack on the u.s. capitol today. since january 6, 2021, we have known that anti-democratic speech can be followed by actions directed against

democracy and parliament, he said. the german security authorities have succeeded in putting a stop to such plans to seize power. these arrests are a remarkable demonstration of how potent and dangerous far right ideologies are all across the globe. what's striking about the news today out of germany is that something was done about it before the attempt to topple the government occurred, before any clashes took place with law enforcement. a member of germany's parliament was among those detained, striking another parallel to the alliances between fringe right wing groups and right wing politicians and in contrast, those in power in the u.s. who were behind the attempts coup on our democracy, who fuelled the flames with disinformation, that led the angry mob to storm the capitol building, have still not been held to account. it's where we begin this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. ben rhodes is here. he served as deputy national

security advisor to president obama. frank figliuzzi is here, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence and katty kay. all three are msnbc contributors. when i saw this -- all three of you could have this conversation with us. ben, you write about this in your book, that this clash, this violent clash between democracies and autocracies is global. we can become so self-consumed here in this country. frank, you have talked about the inadequacy of the tool kit to deal with domestic threats. katty, you have been keeping our eyes on europe and the clashes happening there with the elections all year. i want to start with you, frank. tell me what you understand the details of this plot to be and how they foiled it. >> this is familiar. is it not? the scenario is uncanny, including the qanon influence, which i actually had not realized had reached germany to this kind of penetration level.

look, there's differences and there's distinctions. the distinction in german law and operation and policy is where we should be focusing. first, let's compare and then we will contrast. like the united states, germany does not have a distinct, specific domestic terrorism law. they don't have a law that's called domestic terrorism. we still don't. we define it in the law but we don't have a law against it. they, like us, use existing laws. bomb making, assassination, murder, all of that that we use. but they did it successfully before it happened. how did they do that? here is where the distinction comes in. they actually designate domestic terrorism groups. we do not. contrary to what many americans think is that, yeah, sure, the oath keepers, proud boys, they are designated by the government. no, they are not. we can't. we don't have a mechanism to do that. canada, our neighbors to the north, have designated proud

boys as a terrorism group. we have not. we can get into why we haven't. what does that allow them to do? it allows them to very early and proactively do things that we simply don't do here. when you are a member of that group, when you are associated or supporting that group, they do levels of surveillance and electronic intercepts and wiretaps. they can take your weapon away from you. they do all of that. we don't do that. we can have that discussion about why we don't. but that really enables them to get out in front. they are a serious counterterrorism nation. they get it. their history of atrocity makes them keenly sensitive to preventing anything like that hatching again. the other thing is, they swiftly tweak their laws. they did it in march of this year. if they see a threat, they see a gap in the law, they are quick to address that gap. >> we used to do that before the

threat was so closely associated with other politics. ben rhodes, your reaction to this news this morning? >> well, as you mentioned, in my last book i deal with the global spread of this kind of far right nationalist ideology that we see on both sides of the atlantic. what this demonstrates is how much we live in a global information space. 10 or 15 years ago, an american conspiracy theory like qanon or other american conspiracy theories about a deep state probably would have been contained in certain corners of american discourse. but now, this stuff travels globally on facebook, on youtube, on twitter. so people who are susceptible to the same grievances in germany are consuming the same things that far right people are consuming in the united states. it speaks to the globalization of these conspiracy theories and ideologies. another interesting note in the reporting around the german

arrest is that russia was kind of a secondary character. there were efforts to make contacts with russians. i would expect russia is stirring the pot and stoking division with disinformation campaigns. the same way they are in the united states. we experienced this at the end of the obama administration when they were stoking fears of refugees in germany and the u.s. in the same way. so what you see here is the same fuse can be lit in germany that's lit here in the united states. again, as frank said, part of the differences is here we can't designate groups. we have almost a tolerance for people stockpiling weapons and having militias and ideologies that is very risky. the germans have a culture, not just of laws but because of their nazi past, they have tried to put more antibodies in the society against something like that. it should be a warning sign that

this could happen anywhere, in any country, because we are living in such a globalized information space. >> katty, something striking is the german authorities detained one lawmaker there. we don't know the results that was detention or questioning. i always think of the assistance that trump's lies about election fraud received from the republican members of congress, i think 131 of them voted to overturn the results of the election after the coup, where they went running. it's not as though democrats ran and republicans in america didn't. in these mid-terms, 121 won re-election. we as a country have made clear that be largely tolerate anti-democratic forces in one of the two political parties. i had understood the forces that the political level -- i think you enlightened us in macron's election. but to see the penchant for violence in the grass-roots in a

european country, i don't know why it was so startling. of course, it's been there all along. >> yeah. my guess is the arrest and the scale of the intelligence operation and then what watching the videos of them cracking down into houses and taking these people away. there are a lot of similarities. one german lawmaker today said this is not just about germany. this is about a threat to parliamentary democracy everywhere. you are hearing those echos. my understanding is that it's a former member of parliament arrested. a woman who was a member of the afd and is now a sitting judge. there had been questions why she was allowed to be a sitting judge because of some of her social media posts that were retweeting qanon stuff. there are similarities. a member of a far right parliamentary group who had been a member of the parliament there, one active duty soldier was arrested, former members of the police force, former members of the military. it is this kind of toxic group

of people with links to the security forces who were amongst those arrested. very similar to what we saw on the attack on january 6th here. also, one other thing that i think is interesting, this group is a hodgepodge of misinformation. ben is ride. this is the spread of misinformation online. at what point do theories become online actual violence? that's what we are -- that's what the germans felt it was about to become. it's a real mix. it's about covid, vaccines. there's an element of ukraine and the war as well as well as qanon stuff. it's similar to what we have seen here over the last couple of years. but the germans acted on it, too it very seriously. they took it very seriously, in part, clearly because of what they saw in america. >> that's what's so harrowing. frank, the attacker who broke

into the pelosi home was a consumer of conspiracy theories. the fringiest theories we know about, qanon, were elevated recently. abc news broke a story today about trump hosting an event featuring the pizza gate conspiracy theorist at mar-a-lago and elevating this woman. videos appear to show a prom prominent supporter posing with trump. in one photo, they make a thumbs up sign together. we now have the most prominent figure of one of the country's two political parties elevating conspiracy theories. to ben's point about the global reach of miss and disinformation

and qanon, it couldn't have a bigger backer in america. frank? we can't hear you. unmute yourself and start over. we will let frank work out his audio issues. >> have you lost me? >> there you go. start over. >> i can hear you. but you can't hear me. >> start over. you have all the time in the world. we got you. >> all right. look, i think these two stories are related. the german raid and trump getting more extreme in who he is meeting with and aligning with. the germans do what they do very well in part because they isolate and identify the extremist threats, particularly violent threats. that's what they hang their hat on. that enables all kinds of law enforcement techniques. the more that trump goes extreme, the more he says, this is who i am, i'm meeting with

anti-semites, with qanon persons, that allows the nation and law enforcement to say, you know what, that's who he is. it winnows down his base. it does. as he gets more extreme, we will see more and more mainstream people backing off. that will mean that remaining are people who are signing up for violence. qanon has a violent ideology, results tangibly in violent acts. so does anti-semitism. so does white nationalism. that allows law enforcement to say, if we look over here, we are probably going to see people preparing for violence and advocating and supporting violent acts. if there's any bright spot in what trump is doing, it's that i think it winnows down the universe of his base to people that law enforcement can say, there's a threat there because we know it's tied to violence. >> the other side of it, ben, is from sort of -- the political

lens to legitimatize something so dangerous, you multiply the number of people consuming bs lunacy. only one plot has to come to fruition. they only need to be right one time to endanger all of us, to endanger new york or any of the number of places where terrorism has struck and to have the bullhorn of one of the most prominent leaders, a republican, doing this conduct -- this is where mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy have the most culpability is on the domestic security front by not condemning the meetings, by not saying, i won't vote for donald trump if he runs in 2024 because he associates with ideas and people that are dangerous. that signal is sent to millions of people that creates a permission structure for that ideology. it only takes one of them to act

on it. >> that's right. there's a permission structure that is created by seeing similar language and similar demonization from political leadership that might appeal to people like in germany or the u.s. as katty knows, if you look at the european far right, you have people railing against immigrants. the afd party in germany that's indulged in extreme anti-immigrant rhetoric. they may not beoutwardly advocating for the overthrow of governments, but when you see people that have overlapping views speaking about conspiracies and demoniing people you don't like, it creates a permission structure. when you have a former president of the united states spreading those and legitimatizing these characters, think how powerful that is.

this is someone who was in the presidency. this is someone saying, i was there. i saw the deep state up close. it does exist. look, i was the president of the united states, the most visible human being in the world for four years. now i'm meeting with nazis at mar-a-lago. it creates a permission structure for people to think, maybe this isn't so extreme. maybe this is something i need to look into, do more research of my own on. they find like-minded people. you have a political problem that becomes a national security threat. we're in the bizarre circumstance where the national security agencies of countries like the u.s. and germany and others are dealing with people being radicalized by political leaders like donald trump or like the afd in germany. that's where we are right now. the democracies have to recognize what that german lawmaker said. it's a threat to constitutional democracy. it's going to be around for a while. we have to defend those values

in our own communities. frankly, inlooking at social media and the spread of the theories, not as a political issue, but as a public health and safety issue. >> right. katty, when you lay it out and you put the -- line up the two sides, ben alluded to the russian element of this, russia has been fanning the flames of january 6, even beat tucker carlson. you have the alignment between the russian disinformation and the mission to divide. which side is winning in your view? >> look, i mean, it's a really toxic mix on the other side. the mid-term elections here in the united states were actually an indication that sanity and rejection of far right ideals is winning certainly in this country. i think as you know from your time in the white house, and as

ben is alluding to, it doesn't take very many people. i think this group had something like 20,000 people. police estimate -- authorities estimate 10% are far right and 5% are violent potentially. that's 1,000 people. they had a flashing red light over their heads. they are kind of crackpot and almost funny. they wanted to take germany back to 1871. they had their own i.d. cards, their own currency. they couldn't have advertised themselves more if they wanted to. as you know from the white house, the real threat is the lone wolf. >> right. >> that's the national security threat for all of europe is the small groups that operate by themselves, one or two people that can cause a huge amount of damage, can kill many, many people. you only need one lone wolf who operates in a way that's more undercover than this massive, big, ridiculous group. then you have real threats to national security that are very

hard for security apparatuses to track down. who is winning? americans have just rejected far right views. they have just rejected threats to democracy in the mid-term elections. that doesn't mean you won't have lone wolves acting in the name of the conspiracy theories post-covid or whatever the conspiracy theory is who could slip through the cracks. >> frank, i will give you the last word. >> i think all of this is true. i think this is dangerous. the lone wolf is out there. it's going -- he or she is going to be inspired further by trump. also true is that we are walking away from this extremism. it winnows down the base. yes, it's going to be dangerous. ultimately, i think we're going to be able to get our hands around this from a law enforcement perspective as this moves forward and trump continues to say, i'm the person for violence, i'm the person for hate. i think it's going to get easier, not harder. i think all of it is true.

>> we will end there. ben, frank, katty, thank you for starting us off. when we come back, combating anti-semitism. doug emhoff leading a roundtable aimed at stopping the spread of hate crimes and hate speech against jewish americans. it's a forecast growing problem emhoff says is in our face, real and visceral. we will show you some of this. one of the participants will be our guest. senator warnock's victory last night gives joe biden and the democrats real power in the u.s. senate. it gives the republican party one more reason to dump donald trump, even though they won't. don't go anywhere. ♪♪ over the last 100 years, lincoln's witnessed a good bit of history.

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there's an epidemic of hate facing our country. we are seeing a rapid rise in anti-semitic rhetoric and acts. let me be clear, words matter. people are no longer saying the quiet parts out loud. they are literally screaming them. >> that was secretary gentleman doug emhoff. he is the husband of kamala harris. that was from earlier today. condemning the steep rise in an anti-semitism in the united states. he led a roundtable against it. it comes among elevating of hate

in the u.s., including by the twice impeached ex-president, openly embracing known holocaust deniers. george seline joining us. he attended the roundtable today. he led the department of homeland security's task force to counter violent extremism in the united states under presidents bush, obama and trump. thank you for being here today. i watched this roundtable today. i watched the recorded program that was the rock and roll hall of fame induction. john mellencamp started screaming in language i can't use here, f anti-semitism. the push back is out there. i wonder which voices are louder. >> today, the voices condemning anti-semitism were the loudest. in many ways, today was a great

day because jewish communal leaders and organizations from across the country were hosted at white house in a very direct rebuke of the anti-semitism on the rise across the country. in many ways, today was unfortunate that this meeting had to be called in the first place. key two themes today were number one, this historic and unprecedented moment of anti-semitic incidents we have seen rise at the highest number they have been in the past 40 years, second, as you alluded to, the normalization of anti-semitism in mainstream and popular culture as you were referring to. >> george, you know all of the data. you know all of the science. you know the global picture. there's no disputing that the language leads to violent acts. right? >> you know, the second gentleman's words right at the top are spot on. words do matter. that's why it's so important for after the cameras leave the room, he made the point, he said, as long as i have the

microphone, as long as i have this platform, i'm going to stand up and speak out against anti-semitism as much as i can and wherever i can. i think that's important. not just for public officials in the executive branch or state and local office across the country, but as we increasingly see it's just as important for business leaders and corporate leaders to condemn anti-semitism and bigotry in the workplaces as well. >> what do we do about a de facto leader of one of the two political parties who dines and elevates one of the world's most prominent anti-semites? >> i mean, on the one hand, i want to pay it no mind. i want to encourage people to not pay attention to it and make it as small as humanly possible. on the other hand, this is the same day today where a number of senate republicans and house republicans in a bipartisan letter wrote to the white house saying we need a national strategy to unite our whole of

government efforts on condemning anti-semitism. you have elements that are standing up and speaking out. that are ready to work with democrats. that's the type of bipartisanship we have been long overdue and waiting for. hopefully, that type of movement from conservatives, from individuals that stood by the former president's side in the previous administration, can hopefully outshine the actions that you referred to. >> the letter comes in the wake of, not ahead of, law enforcement warning to jewish communities about an increased risk of domestic violent extremism directed at their communities. would you rather the politicians lead and not follow law enforcement? >> look, for the past several weekends, myself and a team and organizations across the country, we have been on the phone with houses of worship, with jewish schools, jcrcs and community institutions in new york, new jersey, when threats and specifically new york and new jersey have abounded. services have been canceled.

houses of worship have canceled services. we are in an unprecedented time where we cannot wait for law enforcement to make arrests and hopefully lead intelligent led operations to disrupt these acts before they potentially happen. at the same time, we need political leaders to put in policies and initiatives in place to get ahead of this hate-fuelled rhetoric that has inspired many of the horrific actions we have seen across the country, like pittsburgh, et cetera. we need more political leaders to denounce and hopefully tamp down this amplification and acceleration. because there's what it is. these types of incidents accelerate a slow burn that already exists in some individuals. we need to continue to push that down, to let law enforcement do their job. >> george, thank you for spending time with us today to talk about this. we are grateful. >> thank you. when we come back, senator warnock's victory last night is

a victory that gives president joe biden and the democrats a real advantage for the next two years. we will get to that after a quick break. don't go anywhere. hey guys, detect this: living with hiv, i learned that i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is for some adults who are starting hiv-1 treatment or replacing their current hiv-1 regimen. detect this: no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable

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i am georgia. [ cheers and applause ] i am -- i am an example and an

iteration of its history. of its pain and its promise, of the brutality and the possibility. but because this is america, and because we always have a path to make our country greater against unspeakable odds, here we stand together. so thank you for this high honor. after a hard-fought campaign, you got me for six more years. [ cheers and applause ] >> the speech was electric. so was the room. that was senator raphael warnock last night shortly after being declared the winner in georgia's runoff election, officially giving senator warnock his first full testimony in the u.s. senate. giving democrats an outright majority in the u.s. senate. warnock, who was greeted by majority leader chuck schumer on

the steps of the u.s. capitol upon his arrival back in washington today, prevailed in a hard-fought race over his republican trump-backed opponent, herschel walker, in what has been one of the most expensive and, frankly, weird elections in our country's history. warnock becomes the 51st democrat in the senate. it gives the party a little bit of a pad, if you will, on major votes. it ends the power sharing agreement with republicans in the chamber allowing for majority on committee votes. the runoff results also spell another debacle for the disgraced ex-president and his party. walker is now just the latest trump-endorsed candidate to lose in a key senate race this year. joining us, mat dowd, and john howman. i'm going to say it. i got a lot of texts from

friends, not in media, not in politics, saying president warnock? he is a fantastic senator. he ran a fantastic campaign. he gave a speech for the ages. >> look, it's -- you are not the first person to say it or think it. your friends are not the first people to say it or think it. i think he is the first black united states senator elected to a state from the confederacy in the history of the country. he has won in very tough circumstances in what is now i think -- my friends would probably agree with me. the swingiest swing states. these are the new vanguard states that are crucial to

winning the presidency. if you are someone who has proven you can win statewide, particularly as an african american in a state that's traditionally conservative, this guy, on that alone -- one more thing. the democratic party now moving to put georgia in the top four states in the primary process. is that a guy on the basis of what he accomplished -- forget about the speaking ability. he is a strong performer. he is a good candidate. he clearly has had a strong campaign apparatus around him. just on the basis of what he managed to do in terms of electoral success in the last two cycles, that puts him in the conversation as someone who would be a credible presidential candidate in a party where african american voters are the most important constituency, where georgia is one of the most important states and now one of the first states in the process. is that a guy who would be taken seriously if he ran, if joe biden didn't run or if joe biden does run, look forward to 2028?

or to 2032. he is a young man. he has a lot of wins ahead of him or campaigns ahead of him. i think as a national figure, last night in that sense, a star was born. >> absolutely. greg bluestein said, he has run five times in two years. i was thinking, only four. of course, it's five, because he had to win the primary first and he ran twice in the general and then the runoff two years ago and then general and the runoff this year. in terms of getting your campaigning reps in, he is unrival unrivalled. he ran against not a man but a force. we watched the vote come in. the story of georgia last night is the story of tribal america. i think of all of you. i think i quotes you and matthew last night. you are watching the counties come in, and your gut is saying, how could they vote for him, how

could they vote for someone not qualified to govern? that's not what they were voting for. they were voting for their side. talk about the results last night and what you saw. >> can we not start the presidential election cycle? >> honestly, this was a warnock exception. i have no interest in beginning to talk about a presidential contest. i watched that speech last night and was -- it made me cry. it made me laugh. i think people that love politics love feeling all that stuff. >> i will tell you this. not since obama -- i'm an obama guy. this is like sacred ground. not since obama have i seen someone with that kind of "it" factor, that can electrify

people. again, call for our better angels and for american exceptionalism. he is channelling obama. if you look at how he won in georgia, he is certainly -- if you look at how -- look at the top ten counties. the share of the african american vote as a proportion of the electorate increased over what it was in november in all the top counties. i'm not going after the middle swath of electorate but i'm going to bring more people into the process. i'm going to energize the base and bring more young people and people of color into it and make my coalition look like the new america. he is awfully good at that. georgia is ground zero for the battles that i think are going to take place in the next couple election cycles for the

direction of this country. i know a lot of people right now are talking about, well, walker was a bad candidate. yeah, walker was a bad candidate. but it doesn't take away the fact that raphael warnock was a very good candidate. the right candidate and certainly has a strong future in american politics. >> i think, matthew, what we understand and talk about all the time about the right is mitch mcconnell was worried about candidate quality but the base isn't. the base of the republican party voted for trump twice and they will do it again. that's why that's a likely scenario. this was a candidate -- i watched the number come in -- i believed his standing i believe in every county over his november numbers. >> in some of the northern rural counties he lost a point or two, but that came from the libertarian who had run in the fall. i'm impressed by warnock. he has run five great campaigns

in the course of this. he should be viewed as a national star. but i just want to throw a little cold water on this. there's many a slip between the cup and the lip and where we are today in this. he didn't make georgia blue. georgia is as purple as you could be, as john was saying. it's as swingy as any state, that and arizona are the two most swingy states today. this wasn't a republican tom brady. this was not a republican tom brady that was running in the state. this is somebody that threw 52 interceptions, fumbled the ball multiple typetimes. this was like a high school lineman who they put in as quarterback who never played past high school ball. that's who he was running against in this. that's not to take anything away from his campaign. but we also have to understand the specific circumstances of

this race, in the time that we're in. one, probably the most flawed candidate in the united states of america was running for the united states senate as a republican in georgia. two, you had exceedingly unpopular president who kept doing stupid things and corrupt things in the course of this leading up to this race. three, warnock outspent herschel walker by almost three to one, almost three to one in this election. again, i'm not taking anything away from his candidate quality. he does need to be a national star. but we also ought to look at this for what it is. i think democrats should have confidence, but they also ought to have some humility in this. while they were able to win this race and win a number of other races, basically, they are watching florida slip away. florida is not a target state in 2024. ohio is unlikely to be a target state in 2024.

when you look at that -- this is still a very, very, very knife-edge divided country. if republicans -- i don't flow -- know if they will. there's nobody -- there's no group saying, let's do the logical thing now. let's not run candidates who are completely flawed. if they are able to nominate candidates halfway normal in this process, what happened in 2022 would be a very different result if they would have nominated normal candidates. i understand and everybody here, that's a huge if. that's not where they are headed. >> right. i mean, donald trump killed the political autopsy. no one will sit around and say, if only kari lake and doug mastriano and herschel walker weren't our candidates, we would have done better. the scary thing is they came

close with that crop. matthew, i think you are bummed herschel walker is coming home to texas. isn't he a texan? >> time for me to leave. >> i'm sure it would fine if you ran into him at the grocery store. when we come back, will the republicans get the message that the twice-impeached disgraced ex-president's brand is bad? we will show you what mitt romney had to say about that after a break. what mitt romney had to say about that after a break.

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president trump lost again. i know a lot of people in our party love the president, former president. but he is, if you will, the kiss of death for somebody who wants to win. we have to move on and look for new leaders that will lead us to win. >> that's mitt romney. why can't he just say it and move on? it leads you to believe that they agree with him. >> they agree with him? >> there's this whole theory out there that they are afraid of trump and that's why no one will move on. of trump and that's why they won't move on. he's cost them the senate twice. he lost his re-election, a big loser in his own midterms. mitch mcconnell is going to spend probably the rest of his days in the senate in the

minority because of donald trump. they're still like, we don't like nick fuentes but we'd still vote for donald trump. the position of all the leaders of the republican party -- i don't know about mitt romney, but the vast majority is, if he's the nominee in 204, damn right they'll vote for him. >> nicolle, you made this point last night, i may have missed this part of the coverage, apparently, maybe cornell or matthew mentioned it earlier, you made the important point, the point that romney made at some other point in that clip which is that the republican establishment is a meaningless thing now and it doesn't really exist, and the party doesn't really exist. the party is the voters. that's who controls the republican party. romney, one of the things he commented about is the future of the republican party will be determined by -- sometimes people say the trump base, the maga base or whatever. it's really just the voters. it's true in the democratic party, too. the leaders should stand up, try to cut ties with trump.

they should condemn him. they won't, but they should. even if they won't stand up for democracy or constitutional norms, and all the things we've seen them not stand up for for the last 7, 8 years, the political price of trump is high. i will tell you that even if mitch mcconnell and all of them stood up and said we need to cut our ties with donald trump because he's the biggest loser and he's dragging the party down, if the party itself, the voters, the followers, not the ostensible leaders but the people who make up the republican party, if they still love donald trump, the cries of mitch mcconnell, the ones we long to hear from mccarthys, mcconnells, all these people, they will fall on deaf ears. that's the problem, they're not afraid of donald trump. they're afraid of donald trump's voters. they're afraid those voters worshipful of trump will vote them out of office in a primary. as long as they're afraid of

that and the voters are still with trump, at the moment donald trump still is the most popular person among republican voters, as long as that is the case, it matters in the abstract whether these leaders try to lead, but it doesn't matter in terms of who is running the republican party. if the voters are with trump, trump is still in charge. >> i guess what's kpas president of the united states me as a former political operative and as aaron sorkin wrote more beautifully than any operative can say, on election day voters care about what we tell them to care about. the fact that republicans aren't competing in the arena of ideas. it isn't being presented -- there is no competition for ideas. we have breaking news and one more heavy rock to be put in donald trump's political backpack, might be the final report from the january 6th select committee investigating

and focusing in here in its final weeks in the role of donald trump in plotting a coup against the u.s. government. the select committee plans to release its final report during the week of december 19th. two sources telling nbc news the date they are specifically eyeing is december 21st. sources say the schedule is not yet final, but the committee believes the earliest they will be able to complete all the work necessary including the actual physical production of the report will be that week. we all know there's been investigative work that was on going into last week. so the writing is probably going to go up to the line. representative zoe lofgren, a member of the committee told nbc today that the committee is getting close to wrapping up this work. this is her quote, very soon. we've spent a lot of time, not only our staff but members of the committee have spent countless hours going through

the reports, editing them, making sure they're firmly tethered to the facts uncovered by our investigation and nothing else. quote, we're very close to being finished, but we're not quite there. john heilemann, your reaction to this committee working up to the line. i believe they were meeting either monday or friday -- i think this week to discuss criminal referrals which they announced will be part of the final report. >> nicolle, you know what my reaction to this is, right? my reaction is where are you going to be on that day? are you going to be in that chair? >> i thought about it as i read it. john heilemann will be anchoring this program. >> every time i sit -- every time i sit in that chair, the world blows up. it's the most inevitable thing. the mar-a-lago thing, the russia-ukraine war. every time you take a break, i sit in the chair and some giant thing explodes in my lap.

of course it's happening that day. >> shouldn't that tell us something? what does it tell us? not too loud. i don't want any of my bosses to hear. >> can i make a quick point? >> please, save me. >> the one thing i was going to say, nicolle, the benefit of raphael warnock winning, i don't think people have connected the dots yet which is this is going to be the last statement of the january 6th committee before it's turned over to republicans who are not going to do anything on it, right, in the house. but now that they have 51 senators, the democrats have both subpoena and investigative power that they didn't have before this election, before they got to 51. everybody thought this will be it, it will be over and it will be turned over. this actually does provide an avenue if further investigation needs to be done. it won't be done in the house, but the senate now has the opportunity to do it. >> cornell, you get the last

word. >> two quick points. i want to pivot back to what john said, but also, to the idea of candidate quality. i can agree with you 100% on your analysis, my friend. the problem is, alan simpson is not walking in that door. jack kemp isn't walking in that door of the republican party anymore. the kari lakes of the world are going to continue to win republican primaries. to john's point, you do have to break this hold that trump has, and it's because he speaks to a certain sort of angst among the voters. to pivot and end this on the january 6th committee, you know who is the best friend of mitch mcconnell and republicans right now? bennie thompson and liz cheney because they're the ones who can actually do the most damage and try to sort of undermine donald trump right now moving into the next cycle. >> trump and the crazies who are about to take over invasion of the body snatchers, about to

take over kevin mccarthy should he lead that caucus. thank you so much for spending time with us. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. look! what's up my trade dogs? you should be listening to me. you want to be rich like me? you want to trust me on this one. [inaudible] wow! yeah! it's time to take control of your investing education. cut through the noise with best-in-class education resources that match your preferred style of learning. learn your way. not theirs. td ameritrade. where smart investors get smarter℠. if you're living in the darkness of bipolar i or bipolar ii depression, caplyta can help let in the lyte. discover caplyta. caplyta is a once-daily pill proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i

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