good to with, goods to be with you. enemy number one with some of the most armed global conflicts around the world, viktor bout traded for brittney griner who was held hostage by vladimir putin. there is a lot of joy across the country today.

griner's alleged crime carrying hashish oil is considered way out of portion to the way russia targeted her but that joy is tempered with understandable concern about who she was traded for and what message it sends. bout, as we said up top is considered extremely dangerous. he was arrested in 2008, in an elaborate sting operation in bangkok, accused of selling arms to columbian rebels which prosecutors said were intended to kill americans. in 2012, he was sentenced to 25 years in prison, 15 years after he was arrested, he is now free. why did russia want him back so badly? and why did they flat out refuse to include the other american behind bars in russia, paul whelan? also, what could it mean for the war in ukraine? and why was saudi arabia involved in the negotiations? we have, as you can imagine, a lot of questions. so let's get right to it. joining me now is nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, so

you've written a lot about this, this effort to get him behind bars, why did the u.s. want him so badly? >> well, back in 2008, they wanted him, katy, because he was one of the world's most prolific arms dealers, and in a really amoral way, there was one point where he was dealing arms to both the dictator and the rebels fighting against the angolan dictator and making money on both ends and it was illegal to sell arms under u.n. sanctions. throughout africa, a point in time where he was suspected of dealing arms to the taliban. he once acknowledged meeting mullah omar. by the time the d.e.a. concocted this sting in 2008, there was some evidence he was retired from the arms trade and sanctioned and harder to operate but they lured him out of retirement in moscow to teeland where he thought he was doing a deal to sell arms to the

columbian rebels and it was actually the d.e.a. and they got him on tape and it was an air tight case and extradited him to the united states and got this 25-year sentence. the judge though did say, when she sentenced him, that the only reason he was there is because he succumbed to that u.s. sting. but they badly wanted him because they thought he was a force of evil, destruction in the world, and there are some people today who are not happy that he has been released. >> so talk to me a little bit more about that. i know the official reaction from the d.o.j., or is there an official reaction from the d.o.j., tell me, and what about the former d.o.j. officials, who might have been involved in getting him? >> the d.o.j. has been silent on this today. but i know from my own reporting that in general, the people that deal with these issues at d.o.j., they are reluctant to engage in these kinds of negotiations, and they never like to give up a prisoner this valuable. and in particular, we're hearing from the current former intelligence firms who were questioning why this was a one by one swap. if you're going to release

somebody of the magnitude of viktorbout, at least you can get more and the u.s. has a rigid policy we don't negotiate with terrorists and we saw during the i.c.e. beheadings that all of the prisoner beheadings, all of the others were release with ransom pay and our americans were beheaded. the biden administration has been willing to cut deal, painful deal, one-sided deals and some of my sources say that has a cost, and it may incentivize further hostage taking by adversarial states, but look, it's clearly a policy that the american people appear to support. >> all right. let's bring in richard engel, our nbc news chief foreign correspondent who is joining by phone from kherson, ukraine. we just got him on camera. our connection is suddenly working which is great news. richard, one of the question that's being asked is viktor bout this international arms dealer -- >> i'm sorry, katy, we're having

technical problems. on camera right now, i'll tell you, the return of viktor bout is not easy, there is quite a competitive space if you will, for mercenaries, for those who might be military contractors, arms dealers, because right now the war in ukraine is being fought by the conventional military, and it is also being fought by a group called the b wagner group and it is leading the change and the chechens are deeply involved in the fight, so you have the regular army and then two para-military forces, more commercial forces, under the chechens and under the wagner group so viktor bout is going into what is called a competitive market. clearly he has friends. clearly, putin and his inner

circle wanted him out. but he's going back into let's call it an established competitive market where he will have to fight against rivals who are already making inroads and already making money out of the ukraine war. >> richard engel, thank you. i know you couldn't quite hear me, but that was the question that i was going to ask you, so thank you for answering it. joining me now is former u.s. ambassador to russia, and international affairs analyst michael mcfall, the new yorker.com executive editor and msnbc contributor david road, white house correspondent and msnbc political analyst peter baker, and spokesman for the bring our families home campaign, which includes families of brittney griner, and paul whelan, he helped to free trevor reed and spent three years in a russian prison. everybody, welcome. michael, you said that this was a deal that you would take. explain why brittney griner for viktor bout is a good one.

>> to be clear, viktor bout is a really bad guy, just like you're reporting, and i would prefer to get more americans out, to get paul whelan out and to get mark fogle out by the way, an american teacher, he used to teach my kids when i was the ambassador, he used to teach the kids of soldiers and diplomats of american, and he is wrongly detained too. i have been in these situations before. back in 2010, we had to make a decision about a spy swap, four spies, alleged spies, i don't know if they're spies or not in russia, for a dozen or so people that we knew were spying in this country, and they were hard call, and the department of justice and the cia and the fbi all got together, and made the hard call, and ultimately president obama made the hard call, take the deal you have now, instead of waiting for a better deal later. and that's exactly what president biden had to do. and we'd like a better deal, of course, but is this a good

outcome for the american people, and for brittney griner, of course, that is true as well. >> let me play a little bit of what the senator today said about viktor bout. >> he is a pretty terrible character, pretty heinous person, and was clear over many months that putin was only going to release brittney griner, in exchange for this person. and that's the risk, is that the more we engage in such exchanges, the more americans are at risk of being scooped up and held as leverage to try to secure the release of folks who we would rather not have to release. >> michael, talk to me about what the senator is saying there, worried that this will incentivize the hostage taking, the kidnapping of more americans. >> it's a real concern. by the way, the active data on this shows it is not actually, it doesn't happen as often as we think, right? i don't think this will lead to other random americans being

arrested in moscow, for instance. but i think it's a concern, because it now changes the incentives of other bad governments, and nongovernmental organizations, to pick up people, and that said, what, you know, bout was going to be out for parole in 2029 and could have been earlier than that, so you've got to make the hard decision, what's better for americans, right now, not this abstract, what might happen in the future, and i think it's a hard call, it's not a black and white call, but i think the biden administration made the right decision to take this deal. >> he was arrested in 2008 and was behind bars for about 15 years. david, i know you have thoughts on who is taking prisoner, who is taking hostages, who is making these u.s. would say, completely unfair and unjustified arrests. >> so the world of hostage taking has changed dramatically in the last five years. five or six years, it was terrorist groups, al qaeda and

isis taking americans hostage. the majority of americans now held captive are actually being held by authoritarian regimes. under president trump, egypt and north korea, since president biden took office, there were six americans released from venezuela, journalist american held in myanmar was freed and now from russia, and what i think needs to happen is a long-term strategy to punish the term is state hostage takers, governments that engage in this policy. canada announced an initiative with 50 other country, the u.s. has signed on to it, saying that they're going to start now punishing these countries, black listing them, economic sanction, and i know those have limited effect, but there has to be a long-term strategy to that makes it unacceptable for governments to do it. >> the u.s. has not signed on to it? >> the u.s. has signed on it but it is a completely toothless initiative. the chinese kidnapped, i shouldn't say kidnapped, arrested, whatever you want to

call them, two canadians and holding them now as hostages so that's why canada is pushing on this as well. it's getting worse. it was a good trade today. i'm glad it happened. but there has to be a strategic response by the u.s. and its allies. >> jonathan, i know you want to talk about the other prisoners around the world but hold on for one second, because i want to talk about one in particular, paul whelan. let me play what david, his brother played. >> i don't have any notes. i'm going to focus on my work to support paul and to advocate and you know, with programs like this, to remind people that 81,441, and tomorrow will be 1,1442 and we keep doing the work, but frankly, i don't think that the u.s. currently has the tools needed in order to get paul home and i'm not sure how we acquire them. >> i don't think the u.s. has the tools to get paul home and i'm not sure how they acquire

them. that's some tough words from the brother of paul whelan, peter. . the white house says it tried hard to get whelan out. they wanted this two for one swap. but paul whelan, russia was not going to let him go. how is the administration, you know, do they have a reaction, or would they have a reaction to david whelan saying that the u.s. doesn't have the tools they need to get him out? >> well, look, i think that the administration is sensitive to this case. the administration officials have talked to the family yesterday. they put the president on the phone with them, whenever they're ready to talk, if they want to talk with the president about this. and they made clear that they intended to have him as part of the deal and the choice wasn't. >> there the russians look at paul whelan differently than brittney griner. they look at brittney griner as, you know, somebody caught up in this geopolitical contest and they were willing to use her clearly as a hostage. you look at paul whelan as a spy. rightly or wrongly, you know, they are considering him basically the way they would consider, you know, an espionage

agent, and that's been denied of course, but he was captured in 2018, outside of the context of this current ukraine war and they decided to deal with him on the same terms they were dealing with her. and they won't deal with us for him on some level, if there is some trade to be had, but the question is do who do they want that would be equivalent in their minds to him. having given up viktor bout and given up one of our trading chip, one of our bargaining chips that we could have had that would have been valuable to moscow, do we have another incentive to get paul whelan, that's the unclear part. i think the ambassador is right to mention mark vogel, another hostage held in moscow and the americans have not sought to put him in the same category as either brittney griner or paul whelan. he was convicted of drug smuggling for carrying a very small amount of marijuana that his family said was prescribed by a doctor for medical purposes and he is sentenced for i

believe 14 years. there is a lot of things on the table that make today obviously happy for one family but a lot of complicated factors go into this. >> why is mark not being put in the same category? >> well, i think that the government looks, has not vaulted his case in the same context. brittney griner has been evaluated as being a political case in effect. and they have not categorized mark fogle's came in the same way. we don't know why for sure. they haven't explained it. when you ask them, they say we can't discuss individual cases because under the process, he is not officially, wrongfully detained as i understand it. they don't tend to discuss why they don't declare somebody that. but his case looks awfully familiar. it looks awfully similar to hers. maybe he did do something wrong, in the russian context, in the legal context, but it seems so out of proportion at least in what the american legal system would consider for a small amount and the president of the united states just this wall called on americans who were being locked up for ms.

misdemeanors, small marijuana possession charges, in effect what mark fogle is being held under, on a pretty miserable russian prison for years is the equivalent it seems like. >> just to be clear, there is a lot of joy across the country for brittney griner coming home. everyone believes that she was unfairly targeted. and that what they were doing to her was politically motivated and so there is a lot of happiness about having her back, but jonathan, you work with a lot of these families, paul whelan's family, a lot of people who don't get the same headlines, who are looking for the administration to act, talk to me in this conversation we're having about mark fogle, talk to me about your interactions with the administration, and what you're seeing of the efforts. >> thanks for having me, katy. i think they're doing a better job. certainly trevor reed seems to have broke analog jam and take them at their word and we have

to double and triple down. so i think these families today, they are kind of bittersweet, in the same sense we're thrilled for cherelle and for brittney griner, everyone is extremely frustrated that this is the third time that paul whelan has been left behind by two separate presidents. >> tough. i'm also curious, david, about the swap itself, and where it happened, why it happened, in the uae, why was saudi arabia involved? >> i think these governments try to step in as intermediaries to try to get some goodwill with the biden administration. i mean the whole thing, and i'm biased, i was held captive by the taliban many years ago, this just shouldn't be happening. an american 14 years for possessing marijuana, and it is getting worse, so that's the long-term strategy, it is so painful to the families that if they think they say the right thing and if they can get to president biden and bring a loved one home and if they don't

say the right thing, their loved one is trapped. it is a really cruel crime. and so back to this thing of punishing these governments that keep doing this. >> what about, ambassador mcfall, what about the way this bolstering vapz in vladimir putin in russia, or does it getting viktor bout back? >> it does. they have been celebrating. i was dealing with him a decade ago as u.s. ambassador and remember he has done these terrible horrible things, these crimes and it was the sting operation by the united states government, too, back in 2008, let's not forget that, but, you don't do those things, in that system, and i'm just speculating here, i'm not talking about hard intelligence, but my estimation, you don't do those things without close ties to russian intelligence, and remember, vladimir putin comes from russian intelligence, so this

will be celebrated as a fantastic victory for russian diplomacy back home. >> and peter, why did it happen today? >> well, i think the question, the issue, it has been on and off, on and off, over several months and they got an indication in recent days that there was a new willingness, the midterm election was a factor there, the fact that that is now past us, it may have made it more possible for them. i think that, you know, the involvement of the saudis and the emiratis, according to the americans anyway, it was more tangential than anything else, and abu dhabi provided the setting for the swap, you know, both sides flew in their person to trade and on neutral soil in effect. but you know, what the administration is saying anyway, it was a direct u.s. to russia, direct negotiation, without intermediaries. the two sides talked with each other, and this happened basically as a result of basically the biden

administration deciding to go ahead and take a deal that doesn't involve paul whelan, essentially i think that was the holdup for a long time. >> jonathan, just, you know, we have spoken a little bit, but tell me about the other families who are waiting to get their loved ones back. >> there were 18 families before the venezuela releases cut it down, we count 13 right now, 12 wrongful detainees and one hostage. we're not giving up and we will continue fighting and raising awareness. i'm pleased to see this panel remark that this is the right thing to do. it might have been different if it had been 2010, but mr. bout is on his way out, he's old and he's sick and i think there is a moral duty to bring him home. this notion of a speculative bogeyman, this will create more hostage taking has not played out in the data and even if it

had, it would be immoral to sacrifice the current hostages in hopes of alleviating speculative harm that we don't know would come true. so we did, props to the biden administration, for having the courage to do this. >> all right, we are waiting for president biden, who is going to be giving remarks on the economy, he's set to take the podium in just a couple of minutes. when he starts talking about brittney griner, we're definitely going to go right to it. let's talk a little bit about brittney griner and what she had to go through, what she had to endure in jail in russia and the prison camp for the last few weeks, how would you imagine she is doing right now, she's on her way to san antonio, where she's going to get treatment, potentially physical treatment, but also mental treatment for what she had been through. michael, give us an idea of what she is experiencing right now. >> well, i hope she's experiencing elation, that she's out of a russian prison cell

because i've been to russian prisons, i was not captured, let me clear about that,ive visited one, as a government official, they are hell, i have several friends in jail in russia today and we talk to their families every single day, including mark fogle's family today, they are hell, and it's, you know, it's we should take a moment to be elated and thankful that she is out of that hell today. >> all right. president biden is speaking now. everybody, thank you very much for starting us off. i appreciate all of your expertise. and all of the context. let's go right to the white house. no, he's not speaking now. i'm sorry. we'll go to break and come right back in just a moment. don't go away. still ahead, congressman allred on the prisoner swamp that brought back brittney griner, what he thinks can be down to bring back other americans and what do we know about the 23-year-old man the first known protester to be executed by

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we do understand that there are still people out here who are enduring what i endured the last nine months of missing tremendously their loved ones, so thank you everybody for your support. thank you, this is a happy day for me and my family. so i'm going to smile right now. >> of course she's going to smile right now. it is an amazing feeling when your wife is finally coming home. that was cherelle griner, letting out a sigh of relief for the first time in months. she did not even know that brittney griner was coming home until she got to the white house this morning. she was told come, we'll very a meeting, we'll give you updates on what is happening with the negotiations, she got there this morning, and that's when she was told that her wife is coming

home. she is now on her way to san antonio, to greet her when she gets off the plane. let's go into president joe biden right now, who is talking about the economy, and union jobs right now, and let's listen in. >> you know, when the poor have to ladder up, and the middle class are able to prosper, the wealthy do very well. everybody benefits. trickle down doesn't usually get down to the bottom. one of the big ways we have done that by including the butch lewis act, that's shored up the pension plans for millions of new yorkers and it represents some of the most significant investment in pension security for union workers and retirees in the past 50 years. this summer, i went to cleveland, to announce how we would get this going, and get it done. over $80 billion to keep employer union pension plans for union workers to stay solvent for decades to come and today my administration is announcing 36

billion of that money was going to prevent the drastic cuts, of workers' hard earned pension benefits and cuts that had been scheduled to occur within the next few years. it is not going to happen. the cuts are not going to occur. [ applause ] for years and years, union workers have been driving trucks, from factories to stores, bagging groceries, constructing the buildings, and the bridges and the roads, and -- >> we are now going to go to texas democrat congressman colin allred, working with the team and introduced a resolution in may calling for the immediate release of brittney griner and a former baylor university student athlete. congressman, thanks for joining us. first off, what is your reaction to brittney griner coming home? >> it's a great day. the product of months of hard work, and the foreign affairs committee, working with the state department, wanting them to understand that this was going to be a tough deal, it was

going to be an unfair swap, but we supported them pursuing this because it was so important to bring brittney griner home. and while we'll keep working to bring paul whelan and others home, we should celebrate this because it is a big deal and here at the holidays, it is a great thing, for brittney griner and her family and really for everybody who understands what has been happening here. >> do would, do we have other prisoners to swap for paul whelan? >> we will see, from the russians usually they float names in the state media of what they're pursuing or they put forward things and as you're probably aware, over the summer, we made an offer for both brittney griner and for paul whelan, for viktor bout, that offer was apparently rejected, and i think the choice was to take what we could get and keep working to bring paul whelan home. so certainly, it is going to be up to the russians in terms of what they're willing to accept, but i think you're seeing from this president what the trevor reed and now the brittney griner cases, doing what it takes to

bring americans who are wrongfully detained home. >> david, paul's brother says he is worried the u.s. doesn't have the tools, doesn't have the ability to get paul whelan home. is that pessimism that he feels shared by the u.s. government? or do you believe there is something eventually that will work? >> let's classify the way the russians are. they see paul whelan as a part of the espionage effort, and so they have put him in a different bucket, and over the course of the last few months, we have heard some requests from them that were outside of the power of the united states to grant in terms of prisoners that we did not have access to, and so i wouldn't say at all that there's no chance, i've been in briefing rooms with the same folks who are doing these negotiations and i know that they believe that they can get something done, but it is not in our hands, unfortunately. we have to wait for what the russians will accept, and once we hear what they'll accept, we

will have to way that in the efforts of the national security as we've done with all of these decisions. >> the u.s. has 300 russian citizens in custody, about 60 of them have serious charges. all right, i want to ask you about the government, and the lame duck session, and funding the government, you're in the lame duck session and there is talk about the debt ceiling and talk about funding the government, is it going to get done? i think it will. i think we're probably going to have to kick the can a couple of weeks down the road. and we may have to be here, you know, around christmas time, and even after that. but i think we will reach an agreement. from what i've heard, some of what was holding things up was the election in georgia, and the republicans not wanting to make an agreement before that occurred. so we've gotten past that hurdle at the very least. and the thing to do is to fund the government and to not just have a continuing resolution, but to have a real budget that allows us to plan going forward.

the defense department needs that our agencies need, i think we can do that. >> do you think it will happen before january 3rd and the new congress? >> it has to. i think there's an understanding, not just among democrat, but also among republicans, that we need to do it before then. >> i want to ask you about one other thing, it is close to my heart, i know it's close to your heart as well, you're leading a push for a nationwide paid parental leave. this is the, a part of the bill, it has been introduced a number of times, that these always get slashed first. and now that the republicans are going to control the house, and even though the democrats will be one ahead in the senate, 51-49, do you see this having any movement at all? i know there are republicans who support it but do you see, whoever the speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy, or someone else, do you see them bringing legislation on paid parental leave to the floor? >> well, first, let me thank you for your visibility around this, and your activism around this, and i hope eloise is doing well,

i'm the first member of congress to ever take paternity leave. i've done it twice and proud to be a part of a bipartisan effort to keep this at the forefront of the efforts, and we tried to do it with the build back better bill during the summer and you know what that happened there. we will keep pushing during the trump administration, the only time i went to the white house was an event around paid leave largely led on the republican side. so i think there is some bipartisan agreement that we need to do this, and there may be a way forward. and certainly, this caucus, it being bipartisan, it gives us something. and so we have to keep pushing forward, but the only major developed country in the world, and it is way past time that we do this, and again, thank you for your visibility around it, and i think it makes it easier for folks in their own lives when they see others doing it. >> hamlin i think is doing well as well. eloise's favorite word right mow is no. i hope you're not in the same

boat. >> her word is bad guy. >> a lot better than no. thank you so much, congressman allred, i appreciate it. again, the first father to take parental leave in congress. it is an amazing thing to do. and you are leading by example, sir. thank you very much. >> thanks. and coming up, the january 6th committee says to mark your calendars for december 21st, what they will unavailable and iran carries out its first known execution of a protester. what is it going to do to the protests there? (scrooge) bah humbug! my signal is totally ghosting me! (cecily) you need a better network. 'tis the season to switch to verizon. they'll give you the new iphone 14 pro. (scrooge) amazing phone! (vo) this holiday season verizon gives you the new iphone 14 pro. plus an apple gift, like apple watch se, ipad and beats fit pro. all on us. that's a value of up to $1900. (scrooge) wow! (vo) and there are unlimited plans for everyone starting at just $35 a line. it's our best deal of the year. get the network you deserve and the savings you want.

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no one sees what is happening behind closed doors. i had to do everything i could to protect my family. >> all right. the rift between prince harry and meghan and the rest of the royal family is back in the spotlight today, after the release of the first three episodes of the couple's new documentary series on netflix and while buckingham palace was reportedly fearing the worst, at least so far, the series offers little new information about the couple and the controversies that have swirled around them. joining me now is the author of the last queen, a biography of elizabeth ii of the daily beast columnist, clive ervin, thank you very much for being with us. you know, this documentary has been much anticipated, much like harry's book is, and there was a lot of talk in the press about how terrible it was going to be and how unfair it will be, what's your reading of things so

far? >> i'm been very careful not to deliver a killer blow to the palace in the first three episodes, and i think what they have produced a program, they have produced a program for an american audience, not a british audience, because the brits already know some of the most scandalous stuff, which is the behavior of the london tabloids towards not just meghan and harry but the whole royal family. and so that i think, an american audience, it would be shocked in the way that they detail about the stories made up about meghan, particularly about meghan, and meghan says that never stopped trying to destroy her and i think you can feel that from the evidence she provides and otherwise, there are two villains in this story so far, one are the tabloids and the other one is the collusion between the tabloids and the communication staff at buckingham palace. the fact that meghan and harry,

and harry certainly went out to stress this, i think, but there are members of the communications staff, both at the palace, and buckingham palace who conspired with the tabloids to plant anti-meghan stories. you have to wonder why anyone would do that but they certainly stand up, so it's not really new. but i think the other thing that i was impressed by was the amount to which harry -- he talks about his mother being inside him, and then he channels that to meghan, and says that he identifies the key characteristics of his mother, princess diana, in meghan also. so i do come away from this feeling for the first time, because it's come directly from them and not things that i read, i do understand that how what a presence princess diana still is in his life, and possibly

meghan's life now. >> it is a trauma to lose your mother so young, and to lose your mother in a way that she was lost. they do paint the press as, the british press, the tabloids, as the enemy here. and they do, as you said, say that a lot of it has to do with the collusion. you know, you were in the british press for a long time. do you have a sense of how real that collusion is? >> it's a huge industry. it makes lots of money. and from the very beginning, i was outraged to see today, for example, that an editor of one of the tabloids who was particularly notorious for the way he pursued the young princess diana, went on twitter today and called meghan an actress taking unfair shots against people who couldn't reply. but god knows he did the same thing. not just hypocrisy, but to call

her that, is a vulgarity that is quite common to see in the tabloids. >> clive irving, thank you very much and thank you for being ready for us, i know we didn't expect to do this story so high in the show but thank you very much for being here. we have a lot of bugs in the system today. we appreciate it, my friends. good to have you. coming up, what to expect when the january 6th committee releases its long-anticipated report. and iran has executed a protester. what it will do to the protests in that country. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market

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have that. bennie thompson says any decisions on criminal referrals will also drop that day. and they will be voted on publicly. thompson was asked about the possibility of donald trump being on that list. just a couple of moments ago. and here's what he said. >> i have not seen the report. so there's always a chance, if he is, it is not a problem, if he's not, then he's not. but i don't think that would be a deterrent in terms of the court. >> joining me from capitol hill is nbc's ryan nobles. forgive me now, but i didn't understand any of that. can you explain? >> katy, yes, i can. that's why i you have me here. i'll decode the chairman. basically what he is talking about is what the committee has done is put together a sub committee of member led by jamie

raskin and others who are lawyers who have looked into pros and cons of whether or not criminal referrals are necessary as part of that final report and they've been studiously working through all of the different information that they have collected, to make a final decision as to whether or not they want to make that part of the final report, and according to what the chairman told us today, they're going to make that final decision on sunday. so that means, you know, there is a long list of possibilities as to what they could issue to the department of justice, in terms of things they should act on. of course, donald trump may be at the top of that list. but there's a whole other universe of things that they could potentially refer to the d.o.j., and someone perjured the committee, there was any type of witness tampering, any level of obstruction of justice and of course if they wan contempt of congress with individuals who have denied their subpoenas. that's what the chairman has been talking about. he hasn't completely read into what the sub committee is going to do yet but they hope to wrap

it up by this weekend. >> if somebody lied, there were hundreds of witnesses, there were a number of people who could potentially be referred if you're looking at potentially who lied to the committee. i'm not saying anybody did. because they interviewed so many people, it could be a big number. i don't know. >> it could be. i think you're exactly right, katy. and i think what the committee is trying to weigh is the value of these referrals, right? because they really don't carry any legal weight. this is simply a recommendation that they would be giving to the department of justice. there's a little bit more weight put behind if they actually put forward a contempt of congress charge, which is a little bit different universe than the rests of it. but this is ultimately up to merrick garland and the justice department as to whether or not they are going to act on something. so the committee wants to know they have these potential targets, and if they hand this over and the department of justice pass, that will set a

precedent for congressional referrals to the d.o.j. in the future and they do not want to undermine the power that they do have. >> ryan noble, thank you very much. coming up next, iran has executed a protester. what it will do to the unrest. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. i was born on the south side of chicago. it has been a long road, but now i'm working for schwab. i love to help people understand the world through their lens and invest accordingly. you can call us christmas eve at four o'clock in the morning. we're gonna always make sure that you have all of the financial tools and support to secure your financial future. that means a lot for my community and for every community. research shows people remember commercials that means a lot with nostalgia.y so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's one that'll really take you back. wow! what'd you get, ryan? it's customized home insurance from liberty mutual!!! what does it do, bud? it customizes our home insurance so we only pay for what we need!

and what did you get, mike? i got a bike. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ iran says it has hanged a protester accused of attacking a cop with a machete. he is the first person known to be executed linked to the unarrest around mahsa amini's death. activists fear that execution is the first of many. joining me now is the senior fellow at the carnegie endowment for international peace, great to have you in person. terrible story. it keeps getting more terrible. this concern that this is the first execution of what will be many, what is your reaction? >> katy, essentially what we have is this very powerful drama

which is pitting two irreconcilable forces, a modern young society that wants fundamental change, and you have an aging reactionary theocratic government which lass nowhere else to, do and all they want to do is preserve their power and stifle change and really the only tool that this regime has left in its tool kit is repression. and i would argue that the ayatollah is 83 years old, probably the longest serving dictator in the world, and has entered into the dictator's dilemma, because if he doesn't offer, if he only offers repression for the protesters, they are going to continue to protest. it's not going to check these protesters. but people believe that if he actually offers prospects for change, that's not going to placate the protesters, it's going to signal vulnerability

and embolden them now. i tout at georgetown and the best way to understand the middle east, it is not to study political science, it is to studies psychology, you're looking at the psychology of one dictator and an angry society. >> when the protesters don't work, and the oppression doesn't work and it makes the protests grow larger and larger, what happens after that? >> they will continue to double down on repression. and from what we know about the chaps of authoritarian regimes, two agreement, the popular pressure, which you have an ample supply in iran, but they need the division, the fissures at the top. so far, we haven't seen that in iran. the regime has remained united. but if these protests persist, you may start to see what we saw in egypt and tunisia in 2011, which was the militaries in those countries cut loose the dictator in order to preserve their own power. there's got to be conversations happening right now behind closed doors in iran, among the country's military, do we really

want to burn the country down to preserve the rule of an 83-year-old guy. >> the revolutionary guard. >> yes. >> i want to ask you about something "the wall street journal" is reporting, the iranian supreme leader, his sister, is calling, his brother, a despottic caliphate in the country and the people of iran deserve freedom and prosperity and their uprising is legitimate, and necessary to achieve their rights. i hope this is a victory of the people and the overflow of this tyranny ruling iran soon. she is the sister of the post powerful ruler in the country, does it say anything to you that she feels embolden to criticize him. >> there is an expression of dictatorships, that while they rule, their collapse appears inconceivable and after they collapse, it looks inevitable. and it has to go from inconceivable to inevitable.

the same way that this is contagious, so is the malaise of senior government folks contagious. when people see that others are starting to jump ship and starting to publicly denounce the government, in this case, it was the sister of the supreme leader, his niece denounced him a few weeks ago, these things can rapidly continue. >> do you know what happened to the iranian soccer team? >> we haven't heard word on how they've been referred, but these are prominent elections who in some ways have much more protection than your average protester, and it is significant, lebron james and michael jordan, iranian soccer, they are now prominent dissidents opposing the regime. >> it is really interesting. one last question. the u.s. certainly sees this as complicated. because we are in a complicated, nice way to put it, complicated relationship with iran. a hostile relationship. what does the u.s. want to

happen here? >> my view is that change in government in iran, a government that goes from thinking about, a government which goes from a revolutionary ideological government, as we have now, to a government which focuses on the country's national interest, it will be a geopolitical game-changer for the united states. i think folks within the biden administration understand that. but i don't think they're thinking sufficiently about how to creatively help these folks. >> we are seen that social media helps in the past. and social media is something that's hard to use in iran right now. the internet is hard to access. something like starlink would maybe be helpful. >> i agree with you. >> thank you very much for being with us. that's going to do it for me today. hallie jackson picks up coverage next. hallie jackson picks up coverage next 14 pro. (scrooge) amazing phone! (vo) this holiday season verizon gives you the new iphone 14 pro. plus an apple gift, like apple watch se,

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one american heading home as we speak, another stuck in