hi there, everybody, it's 4:00 in new york. far too often, these past few years, this program has by necessity become a dire warning or increme nating revelations of threats to our democracy, but not today. because this afternoon, there's something to be happy about, something to celebrate this holiday season. brittney griner is right now on her way home to her family. after 294 grueling days in russian captivity, wrongfully detained, according to the u.s. state department, and ahead of a 9 1/2-year prison sentence for having cannabis oil in a moscow-area airport. the wnba superstar will land here in the united states in a matter of hours. a short time ago, we got our first look at griner without handcuffs, the first time we've

been able to say that for a long time. this is her on her way home earlier today. the deal was a one for one prisoner swap with the kremlin, with the u.s. state department sending convicted arms dealer viktor bout back. we learned earlier today that griner's wife cherelle was invited to the white house this morning for a meeting with national security adviser jake sullivan. it is a meeting she reportedly understood to merely be an update on the situation. cherelle didn't find out that her wife was coming home until president joe biden told her himself. a few hours later, they shared the news with the world. >> i'm glad to be able to say that britney is in good spirits. she's relieved to finally be heading home and the fact remains that she's lost months of her life, experienced the needless trauma and she deserves space, privacy, and time to recover and heal from her time

being wrongfully detained. >> over the last nine months, y'all have been so privy to one of the darkest moments of my life, and so today, i'm just standing here overwhelmed with emotions, but the most important emotion that i have right now is just sincere gratitude for president biden and his entire administration. it's just a happy day for me and my family, so, i'm going to smile right now. thank you. >> well, brittney griner's return is a happy there. there is another side of this story that can't be ignored. american paul whelan is still in russian custody. he has been there for four years now. he's serving a 16-year sentence. he's accused of espionage, something the united states has always denied. this morning and throughout the day, the white house has repeatedly made clear, they have been working to secure whelan's release, but this time, it was not possible. >> the deal that we got with ms.

griner was the only deal we could get it and now is the only time we could get it. we took advantage of that to get one american home. but we're going to stay focused on mr. whelan. this was not some choice between the two. so, i would push back on this notion that we deliberately, you know, we chose brittney over paul. there was only one way to get one american home, and that was this particular deal, so, we're going to stay at it. we were working on it yesterday, we're working on it today and i can guarantee the whelan family that tomorrow and every day here after, we're going to continue to work to bring paul home. >> an historic one for one prisoner exchange and what happens next is where we begin our coverage today. renee montgomery is back, she's now a part owner and vice president of the atlanta dream. plus eddie is here, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university. with us at the table, rick

stengel, former top state department official. eddie and rick are msnbc contributors. and joining us in a couple of minutes will be kevin blackistone from "the washington post." renee, i start with you. just your reaction. >> when i woke up to so many text messages and emails, i couldn't believe it. i went and -- first of all, i just cried, because i was just saying yesterday on "we need to talk" that she was consuming a lot of my thoughts. every article that came out, every time you hear about the treatment that she could be enduring. when you -- when i even just think to the fact that i played in russia for three years and so, we know, as wnba players, it could have been any of us. so, just the fact that she can get to the healing process, it's going to take a lot of time, but i mean, i just have nothing other than -- i mean, for the holidays? for the holidays, that's what everybody was praying. there's nothing but just

happiness and i'm so happy for her family. i can't imagine what that would be like. >> she's there smiling. i'm sure for the first time in awhile. let me show you, renee, what don staley, legendary coach who coached brittney on team usa, had to say about the, i think, the balancing act that a lot of people tried to -- to maneuver in terms of doing what was helpful. >> there was a time in which they told us not to say anything, just to be silent. and there came a time when we -- excuse me french, we said, eff it, and keep her name, every day, just for, you know, them not forgetting -- anybody forgetting about her, and, you know, now we're at a place where, you know, our whole entire women's basketball community, we stood strong. we stood strong to make sure

that our sister got a chance to come home. >> renee, in a much lesser degree, we navigated this, too, we wanted to cover this every day, it wasn't clear to us if doing so would be helpful or if it would raise her profile in the view of the russians, but despite maybe some uneven efforts, all made in good faith, enough pressure was applied or the circumstances were suitable, and it still happened, even in the midst of a real low point between relationships between the two countries. what do you -- what do you think that is due to? >> first of all, shoutout to dawn staley, because she's one of the people that, every single day, she was posting a message about it. there were multiple people that did it every single day, and she was definitely one of them. i tried to make sure every time i got on a national platform that i said her name, just to keep it in front of mind. it was -- it was a hopeless feeling at a certain point, because it looked like there was no movement. we don't know what's going on,

you know, as the -- u.s. government, they were working all the time, and we understood that they were trying, but when you don't see anything happening, you don't know what's going on. and so, there was that uneasy feeling of, like, well, how long will this last? will she have to do her full sentence? and no one wanted to see that. right when we heard she was going to a penal colony, i feel like it was a collective heartbreak. all of our hearts broke. because we can't imagine. it's not even like doing going to prison is bad enough here in the united states. but if you are going to a penal colony, we've heard what that can be like, there's just -- it's unimaginable. and so, just for this to happen out of nowhere, which, of course, the government was like, probably, everybody calm down, we doing our job, everybody chill, i know they probably felt that way, but you know, we just -- we just were going to keep on banging our drums until we could get b.g. home. >> i love that. rick stengel, i want to put the video up again, kind of a scene

out of "homeland," the video where they actually -- where the swap actually happens. we'll pull that up, the video on the tarmac where they actually see them -- here it is. so, this is b.g., as renee just called her, being swapped for viktor bout. this is viktor bout and i think we see him walk by her on the same tarmac and it is sort of a scene out of a thriller, this is in abu dhabi. she's in the red jacket behind him. so, they're on the tarmac at the same time. there's something so discordant about these two. how do these deals, how does this equivalency, get made in relations between the u.s. and russia? >> yes, i mean, there's no equivalency, she was bringing in some hash oil, not even an

ounce. you know, i'm going to tell you a diplomatic secret how negotiations with the russians work. you meet in a room that has no windows in it. the russians are late, sometimes an hour late. they have grim and long faces and they say, relations between our two countries are worse than they've ever been. and then they state their position. because remember, they can't negotiate. in an authoritarian society, that guy at the top makes every decision. so, you might say, well, let's do this person or that person, they only know what they're going to say. so, as john kirby said, there was only one option. they made the decision, putin made the decision that victor bout was going to be exchanged for ms. griner. that was it. and that's a very good thing. they were under a lot of pressure. i actually think it's a good sign that the russians are negotiating with anything, that you have tony blinken and the foreign minister lavrov on the phone, that's a good thing, so, the fact that the russians wanted to make a deal is a good thing and it's a great thing that she's coming home.

>> the darker side of the story is that paul whelan isn't. let me show you some of what -- i believe he did an interview today with cnn, let me play some of that. >> they've always considered me to be at a higher level than other criminals the of my sort and for whatever reason, i'm treated differently than another individual here from a western country that's also on a charge of espionage. so, even though we're both here for espionage, i'm treated much differently than he is. and my treatment is always much different than others held for espionage at other prisons. >> i guess two portions, and they may be obvious and silly, but how was he able to make that call and what does he mean by differently? >> by the way, i don't know the answer to the first question. that's kind of amazing. i mean, i don't know -- that

treatment is pretty lenient, if he can make phone calls. but the russians take espionage so seriously. they have more resources than that, they're as good at it as anybody else in the world, and when you're negotiating, you have to look at the point of view of the person you're negotiating with. a guy that's a former marine, that was working at a security official, it's like, that says spy all over it to them. i'm not saying that's right, i have no idea about the details, but they're looking at it as espionage, they presume anybody in that position is a spy. and to be refuted by facts, which they don't want to do. so, the exchange for him will be interesting. it will probably have to be somebody who is sort of considered a spy by us. it might be numerous people, i mean, because now his profile is elevated, now that brittney griner is gone, he's the it boy who is behind bars there, so, that will be telling to me what the russians do about paul

whelan. >> and we should say that the state department says that there is nothing to the charges that have been brought against him by the russians and he and his family deny the charges, as well. what does it mean for him that this happened, does one relate to the other, that they were willing to negotiate over brittney griner, does that bode well for mr. whelan and his family? >> you know, john kirby said they don't have a relationship to each other. the other thing -- the relationship is that plane has taken off, so, now the runway is clear for something else, which is a good thing from his point of view. >> we also have been joined now by kevin blackistone, writer for "the washington post". kevin, you've written about brittney griner's case specifically and the power of sports and of her colleagues, her famous colleagues, people like renee, who is also here. let me read what you wrote over the summer -- no, in october. by the middle of the summer, 3 1/2 years have passed since russian intelligence agents working for the country's latest

iteration of its notorious kgb stormed paul whelan's hotel room, pinned him to the floor and accused him of spying, if which he was sentenced for 16 years in the gulag. when his story was told, i found after checking a database of 8,000-plus news sources, including period calls, websites and blogs, his and his families pleas for help but heard without much resound. despite desperate public protests such as the one outside the white house in may. but in july, whelan's flight suddenly gained public traction. factiva, that news database, tallied nearly 3,000 hits on his name that month alone and then 3,000 in august. why the uptick? the cultural perm yags of sport. it's pretty powerful and prescient, because while we're celebrating brittney griner's release and return, we are also talking about mr. whelan.

>> exactly. and i guess fortunately for paul whelan, his name became tethered to brittney griner's. and for brittney griner, her stardom as an athlete, was both a curse, and if you can say, all these months later, a blessing, in terms of her release. you know, i don't think that anybody watching this show right now can name many of the other 60 americans being held captive in countries all around the world. china, iran, russia still, but everybody knew brittney griner. that became -- that became the headline. and it became the headline and the hopefulness for the whelan family. the only good news for paul whelan right now is, if i'm not

mistaken, as recently as a week ago, no one knew quite where he was. and so, to know that he's still there, that there may still be a deal for him, is the good part. but people pay attention to sports. faus it. it's not -- it's not a trivial stage to be on. it is a powerful, powerful stage, and today, brittney griner was able to benefit from that. >> yeah, i mean, kevin, we often come to this table, figuratively speaking these days, because the power of the platform has bedevilled or betwixed somebody, right? because it's not used for good or not used in the same way others use it for good, but you're making a far more profound point, that just being a beloved international sport and being an icon within that beloved international sport may have been sort of an x-factor that helped make today possible.

i want to show you the way the nba season started. these are some players talking about her, making opening day of this year's nba season about brittney griner. >> i appreciate us being able to share this floor together, all of us as brothers, but the big picture that's going on in the world is free our sister, brittany brianer. >> so, i just want her to know from my miami heat family and the nba family, that we are still thinking about you. >> please keep her family, her, as your blessings. >> we hope that she comes home soon and everybody's doing their part to get her home. >> could not have been a more high profile moment, the start of the nba season, and it was all about brittney griner. >> absolutely. and, you know, i want to -- one thing that kind of troubledseat few hours, seeing people write and talk about this, people said she actually got a break because she was black. black people don't get a break in something like this. there was no break.

but what she did have was name recognition because she was a star in a worldwide sport. and that is what eventually helped to free her. and good for the wnba, good for all the nba players, athletes everywhere else, who kept her name in the forefront. because it made everybody remember her name. and remember her plight. and just the other day, across my social media, i saw some athletes talking about it, and counting the number of days that she had been away and detained. but it had nothing to do with her blackness getting her out. it had everything to do with her notoriety as an athlete. >> and notoriety and affection held the world over for her sport, frankly. eddie, what kevin's talking about is something that some of our viewers may have missed, but on the right, there is definitely a conversation and it is pretty sick and depraved, but

it alludes to what kevin is talking about. that there's outrage on the right that brittney griner was released before mr. whelan. there's some theories, maybe that is because she is black, others theorize that it's because she's gay, some people think it's because of biden's politics, i guess, that's some of the theory on the right. all of it, utter nonsense. all of it seems to erase the fact that she was in russia because of her status as an elite athlete and there's probably more complicated discussion of the fact that she had to be there to begin with. but the idea that geo-politics were driven by any of that is asinine. mr. whelan is accused o espionage.

she had crimes that the state department said she didn't do in the first place, but she's accused of having some cannabis oil in her suitcase. >> oftentimes, people want to read celebrity as kind of a negative characteristic or feature of this particular story. she's singled out for special treatment. but in, her celebrity brought attention to americans who otherwise were underneath the radar, that we weren't talking about regularly, so, i think that's such an important point. as for the folk on the right, nicolle, they repeatedly reveal that they have an idea of who they think are actually americans and who they think aren't. you know, i was just reading ralph ellison, who wrote "the invisible man," and he wrote a letter to albert murray and he said that democracy at its best is a disinterested form of love. and i've always puzzled about what he meant by that. disinterested form of love means that you don't have to know people. they don't have to be in your tribe. they don't have to be folk that

you grew up with, but because democracy at its best involves a deep and abiding concern for one's fellows, it is love across the board. but here, we see over and over again, folks revealing that they are loveless when it comes to certain people. >> and i guess, eddie, the tide to the things that we are often around again our virtual table talking about is that it is another development. i mean, there was a time not too long ago, including during the trump administration, where the release of any american from anywhere was a cause for celebration among everyone. and it is another sign of the sort of sickness on the right that this isn't that for everybody. >> absolutely. if you're not a member of their tribe. if an achievement is not one that they can celebrate for themselves. then the whole task is to own the libs. that's the only other side. and it seems to me that as long as that obtains, nicolle, we're in trouble. but today, besides, you know,

inspite of what they're saying inspite of what senator tom cotton is saying and others, we're going to celebrate that brittney griner is coming home, that she will be home eating stuffing and turkey with her family, if she eats turkey, that we're going to be celebrating and understanding the power of grace and blessing and, of course, the competence, again, the competence of the biden administration on the international stage. >> yeah, i do -- i want to -- i don't want to give that any -- we're going to sneak in a break, no one's going anywhere. when we come back, more on today's news that brittney griner is on her way home. plus, extraordinary verdict in the trump organization tax fraud trial shows that juries are unafraid of showing that donald trump can and will be held accountable. what that might mean for the many, many, many, many other investigations into the twice impeached ex-president. and later in the program, stunning allegations by a former conservative activist that he ran an influence campaign to try and sway justices on the united

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qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds. one or none, how do you feel about that? >> i think president biden made the right decision. his job is to protect all americans, and to care about all americans. and it would have been wrong for him to leave behind an american when he had the ability to bring them home. and so, i appreciate that he may have even waited, he may have delayed in the hope that paul might have been able to come home. but it was absolutely the right decision to bring ms. griner

home and i'm so glad that he did. i'm super excited that she's free and able to spend the time with her family. >> that was the brother of paul whelan on with my colleague andrea mitchell earlier today on msnbc. talking about his brother, who is still being held in russia. we have also in this program covered the plight of marc fogel, he's a teacher, he -- he too is still detained. to kevin's point, so are a lot of americans around the world. you've been part of these efforts to free americans, it is quiet and not always successful work, but it is ongoing. >> yes, i -- i worked a little bit in the hostage affairs area, it's always run out of the white house, it's considered that important that what would be normally a state department function is worked out of the white house. people work 24/7 on these things . and the bias has been, let's do this behind the scenes, we can

negotiate this better and have more leverage. what we've seen with ms. griner, maybe that equation changes now. if you're a family of someone who is being held somewhere around the world, you've got to think, well, maybe i want to get more publicity about that, and maybe that is the right thing, but i do know that the -- people at the state department, white house, consider this super important, and they're touching base on these issues daily, 24/7, not only with the families, but with the countries. and the negotiation happens to be when the country holding that person makes a decision to release her or him. so, at the end of the day, great negotiations, but the russians make the decision. >> renee, i want to at least start a conversation about why she was there. so, brittney griner is -- i'm not an expert, but among the best of the best in her sport. and certainly in the wnba. and she's in russia, she plays in russia, you played in russia, explain why. explain why that is and explain sort of the financial piece of this. >> yeah, i mean, as athletes,

everyone recognizes that father time is undefeated, you know? there are some athletes now pushing the envelope, playing into their 40s and later ages than that, but at the end of the day, you have a certain alofted amount of time that you can perform at the highest level. if you are playing in the wnba in the summer and you want to maximize your income, you may not be making enough income, you go overseas where they can pay you up to three times more, four times more, even five times more, there's million dollar contracts that happening overseas and they happen often now at this point. and so, of course you're going to go get a contract that's big that you can take care of your family and just have a settled life, because at the end of the day, you are going to have to retire at a certain point. so, myself, along with a lot of wnba players, you know, we play two seasons every year, you play in the wnba in the summer and then each year, you decide where you're going overseas. i played three years in russia, and that's what makes it so terrifying.

we've all flown in and out of that same airport, you know, we all understand that it was just a matter of who, what time it was and not who, you know? and it's unfortunate for griner, because i even think back to, she has a book that she wrote called "in my skin," and it talked about just being targeted for just being herself and it seems, again, that she's in this situation, but watching her smile on the plane, it just shows that her spirit and her energy, like, how could she smile right now, but that's griner, that's b.g. and just seeing her energy and it also makes me think, this holiday season, you know, we got a lot to celebrate and be excited for, you know, the world watch georgia make once again and send the first black senator to a full term to the u.s. senate, you know, he talked about his mom went from picking someone else's cotton to picking her son for the u.s. senate, and then, you know, we have the respect for emergency law that just passed, it's 2022, come on, we needed that to happen on a federal level, but i'm glad it's here now, that's something to celebrate, and then, of course,

b.g., i mean, b.g. is home. and i feel like it feels like a piece of us was missing, when you can't understand what's going on and what b.g. was going through, so, i mean, for me, like, i'm -- there's too much to celebrate right now, i mean, in georgia and everything going on, so, it's just an exciting time right now. >> i mean, i think the last time we had an extended conversation with you, it was sort of about the mental health crisis that so many people were suffering through, as covid was grinding on around this time last year. and you're right, like -- and you are a huge deal in georgia politics, so, congratulations to you, i know you are apart of what happens in that state's politics. >> i want to shoutout the people that were, you know, doing the -- the boots on the ground, all the people there, i don't want to take too much credit, because there was over 1 million calls made, 4 million calls made, 1 million doors knocked on, there was so many people that were boots on the ground from the fair fight action group and all -- all the different

groups, all of them that were on the ground, so, i want to make sure i shoutout to them, because they were instrumental in keeping the message alive. it's a collective effort and i'm just excited to be part of it. >> what do you think, renee, is the best way to honor brittney griner without imposing further on brittney griner, in terms of pushing some of these conversations forward? >> i mean, i think it should be a lesson that we all can understand, that, you know, i love what he said about democracy, just, that was -- that was what the word was when we were talking about politics and it's still the same word when we're talking about with b.g. you shouldn't have to know someone to feel for someone or care for someone. and so, i hope that the situation that happened with b.g. and seeing how we can, as a community, what we can do as a community, i think that we can just use that, we don't need griner to say anything. who she is now speaks for itself, and so, i hope that there's companies that just want to be apart of her messaging, i hope that she doesn't have to

ever worry about working again, like, we loved watching her play as a basketball player, but i hope she never has to work again, if she doesn't want to. i hope that her family will be taken care of by whatever they need and whatever they want and i just hope that first of all we give her enough privacy and respect to heal, because i know as a society, we love to be involved in people's situations, but she has to heal, and her wife and her family, they deserve that, but i think brittney speaks for herself. we saw her smiling. we should take that with us and all learn a lesson from that. >> kevin, what is the sort of appropriate debt that we owe to sports, right, for making us feel connected to her for, to eddie's point, appreciating the competence of the administration that worked tirelessly in probably ways we'll never know about or see, to bring her home, of the strength of her family, of her wife, never losing the faith. i mean, what is it that we give back to a family and a sport

that bring us into all of this? >> well, maybe just that collective effort. and, you know, i don't want people to forget that we know senator warnock because of the work that women did with the atlanta dream in wearing those t-shirts, saying to vote for warnock, and chasing kelly loeffler all of that team. this is an extension of that collective effort, of that team work. and just remembering that, you know, we often hear that sports instills, you know, certain values, and they just kind of roll off of our tongue, but in fact, in this case, the values that sports instills helped keep brittney griner's name in the forefront, made people aware of other americans who are held wrongfully around this -- around this planet. help get her home.

and hopefully will help get paul whelan home and all the others. and, you know, we just need to keep our eyes on the prize. and i think that's what this case was all about. >> eddie, we talk so much, and again, we've had these conversations at increasing clip, in that during and as we've tried to sort of step out of the muck of the covid years of disconnection, of apathy, i think you and i pound the tables, i think our bond is maybe we feel all this too much, but it is clear that everyone felt this family's pain. everyone was pulling, i think, for the same thing, with the exception of some of the extreme voices on the right, who for some reason have expressed displeasure, but they are outliers. the vast majority of people wanted what happened today to happen. and to your original point about the competence of an administration that made today happen, what is -- what is the way to have more days like today?

>> well, first of all, let me just say, if we were on "around the horn" on espn, you would be pressing the button for kevin the whole show. but i think -- it's really important, though, to understand what the biden administration has done on the international stage over these last few years. you and i have talked about and you've talked about it repeatedly the state of the state department, the way in which the kind of deconstruction of the administrative state impacted how government functioned. the fact that we had people in office who didn't know what the hell they were doing. and so, the fact that we have someone who is competent at the wheel gives us the confidence to actually engage in that kind of communal effort, to push those who are in government to do the right thing. and i've said this on your show before, nicolle, there are these moments where we have the eruption of the possible in the midst of the absurd.

and the eruption of the possible -- >> that's perfect. >> you know what i mean? the eruption of the possible gives us a guiding star. it lets us know what we're capable of, and that's what we need to remember in this moment, as we celebrate b.g. coming home, as we celebrate the competence of the biden administration in helping make that happen. >> because we don't have enough of it, i'll just underscore renee's highlights, the important legislation that passed today, protecting marriage equality and the victory on tuesday night of senator warnock to a six-year term, in a stunning speech that night, capping off what was, i think his fifth campaign in two years. it is a highlight to get to talk to all of you. thank you so much. renee, kevin, eddie, rick, thank you so much for starting us off today. up next, there is breaking news, but of course there is, right, in the investigation into those classified documents that went home with the twice impeached disgraced

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in his possession. that's according to people familiar with the matter. it's a sign of how contentious the private talks have become over whether the former president still holds any secret papers. joining our coverage, barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney, now a law professor at the university of michigan, as well as an msnbc contributor. and pete struck is here, former fbi counterintelligence agent. barb, take us through what this means. >> well, it would likely mean daily fines until they agree to comply with these conditions. you know, ordinarily, when you work with any sort of corporate entity, there is a custodian of records. there is a real person who says, i'm the one who is responsible for gathering these documents, i'm the one responsible for saying what we do and do not have. and in the case of trump's retention of these documents, they've played ate very cute. it's different people who come and go. and they won't say things like, you have all of them, they say, well, i've looked pretty hard

and i didn't find any. and i think this just demonstrates the government's position. do you have more or not? and if you refuse to tell us, we want the court to fine you every day until you do. >> pete, this is sort of how this came to pass today, "the washington post" writes this. in recent days, justice department lawyers have asked u.s. district court judge to hold trump's office in contempt, that's according to people who spoke anonymously to describe sealed court proceedings. he has not ruled on the request, they said. what is doj seeking? they're actually seeking not the fine to be paid, but for the documents to be turned over, right? >> absolutely. doj, at the end of the day, along with the fbi, wants to be certain that all of these documents that if they are released could damage national security, which is why they're classified, that they've got those all back under control. and, you know, this comes to a head on the news earlier this week that two documents came out

of this storage room, storage locker where things like wrestling belts and swords and god knows what else is there. so, you know, if you are the government, if you are worried about the national security of the united states of america, you don't want these highly classified pieces of information, they could put people in danger, they could put sources and methods in danger. you don't want those out there. so what doj is trying to simply get an answer, once and for all from some person to say, yes, you have all of them. and it's frustrating and i can't begin to imagine how long this has taken to finally percolate to the stage where now doj is asking for this. >> so, barbara mcquade, if i wanted something, and i had to wait, i would feel frustrated, but if i'm doj and you're trying to protect state secrets, i don't understand why they got frustrated. why not charge the obstruction case, which has all happened in full view of the public? you basically have confessions in public view, as well. why not charge the obstruction of this investigation into classified state secrets today? >> well, it may -- it may come.

and i think there are often things in investigations that we don't know. you have to prove that a person acted corruptly in obstructs an investigation. one of the things that i think will be challenging about this case is the multiple people who have been involved here. can you tie all of this to trump? or because there's christina bobb and otherlawyers that got involved, did everybody have a little piece of it? so, those are the kind of things that i think can cause delay. but you're absolutely right that there are certainly probable cause here that there is evidence of obstruction of justice. and i think the question just becomes, at what point does the justice department feel that it has enough evidence that it can prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a higher standard. >> i mean, pete, you have mueller volume two obstruction

exhibits style volumes of obstruction here. and the -- the incidents are eerily similar, tell a lawyer to say something that isn't true so that you can do something that isn't legal. it's what he does. why not charge the obstruction case? >> well, i think the wise, exactly what was laid out in volume two, what michael cohen and others have said, it is very difficult when it comes down to the elements of the crime to pin in particular trump down of knowing or saying something. he's not the kind of person that writes on an email, a document, look, i want you to meet to the department of justice and lie to them, and before you do that, take all these boxes out of there. he may not say anything specifically, just in the way he commune kapts in many ways that feels like a mob boss, make known what he wants done in a way that, if you are a prosecutor, an investigator, it's very, very hard to line up that behavior against elements of a crime that's going to convince a jury that he did it.

so, it's enormously frustrating, it absolutely is not new. it is absolutely consistent with the things we've seen going back to the mueller report and all of the events that they looked at, and i just, you know, i hope we get to some point in this process where we are able to find and doj is able to kind of go over the threshold to bring charges. >> barbara, what do you believe the status of our country's state secrets is? i mean, if two more classified documents were found in a storage facility this week, if there's a contempt of court charge looming for -- what do you think the state of the actual classified material is? >> it's very concerning, nicolle. now, it may be that they have not left the boxes that donald trump put them in. but when you think about the storage, it is absolutely below the standards that the justice department, that the u.s. government requires. for some of these documents, top secret, those must be kept not only in a safe, but in a skiff, a sensitive compartmented information facility.

and that's because the content of those documents would, if released, cause exceptionally grave harm to the national security of the united states. so, we don't know whether any of these documents have been exposed to interlopers and others that would use it to do harm against the united states. but only by dumb luck, because of the way that donald trump has so recklessly handled these. >> what we do know, as pete said, they have likely set among wrestling belts and shoes and other, shall we say paraphernalia. pete, barbara, thank you so much for helping us make sense of this breaking story. after the break, a landmark bill has passed to protect same-sex marriages and interracial marriages. it now heads to president joe biden's desk after passing the house this morning. the long and winding road to an historic, albeit incremental moment. that's next.

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the senate last week and now heads to president joe biden's desk to sign. the bill originated in the wake of the dobbs decision and fears that a 6-3 conservative majority supreme court would be willing to reverse its previous decision on same-sex marriage. let's bring in "washington post" associate editor and host of msnbc's "the sunday show," jonathan capeheart. they weren't just fears. jim jordan is saying this is some fear that doesn't exist. this is what thomas said he would look at. this was in writing. this isn't some abstract concern about marriage equality. this is something that thomas has alluded to having in his sights. >> right. the first red flag in all of this came when the alito draft was leaked earlier this year. in reading that draft, i came immediately to the conclusion that if you can make these arguments for overturning roe v. wade, then the same arguments

could be used to overturn the supreme court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage and then lo and behold, the dobbs decision comes out in june, overturned roe. justice thomas signs on to the majority opinion and then in his concurring opinion says, by the way, we should look at several of these supreme court precedents that relied on the rationale for roe, among those being same-sex marriage. that's why there was so much consternation and fear that as a result of overturning roe v. wade and a supreme court justice saying we should look at, review, reconsider and on top of that a justice who is part of a 6-3 conservative super majority on the court, there were a lot of people, thank goodness, in congress who said, you know what? we need to codify same-sex

marriage and interracial marriage. as someone in both, i am very happy that congress moved to legalize as a matter of federal law, not just supreme court precedent, same-sex marriage and interracial marriages as a result of the vote today. >> do you worry there's this relatively, that on the right it's so extreme and it was desired to be bipartisanbiparti? >> upwards of 70% of americans believe it should remain the law of the land. upward of 67% of all americans believe that abortion should be legal. how much of this is that -- this is what was achievable, so the laws of relativity require us to say this was better than nothing. where does that -- what are we on the path toward? >> hopefully, it means we're on

the continual journey forward. we have to remember that, yes, this is a small step in the march forward. but that's american history. >> yeah. >> that is the story of civil rights in this country. we didn't get to the 1965 voting rights act or the 1964 civil rights act in the blink of an eye. those movements started really galvanized in the '50s but ongoing send the end of the civil war. what we are seeing today is a small step, but a small step forward, in recognizing the rights of same-sex couples by the federal government that, as you rightly point out, 70% of the american people are for. this is a great first step. the respect for marriage act. if congress really wants to take a big step forward, they should also, in the lame duck session,

pass the equality act, which passed the house. it's in the senate. if they were to do that now in the lame duck session, then gender identity, sexual orientation and one other characteristic would be added to the 1964 civil rights act so that a couple -- same-sex couple or interracial couple that gets married on sunday will have all of their rights protected as a matter of federal law on monday. they wouldn't be able to be evicted or lose their jobs simply based on their sexual orientation or their gender identity. if the senate doesn't move on the equality act before -- in this lame duck session, then we start all over again with the new congress. >> a new congress with a republican controlled house, with a lot of looneys in it. jonathan, it's great to see you. thank you. >> thanks. when we come back, a whistle-blower lays out his

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throughout this ordeal, i have had to look deeply at what my cohorts and i did at the supreme court. i believe we pushed the boundaries of christian ethics and compromised the high court's promise to administer equal justice. but i'm also conscious we were never admonished for the type of work our missionaries did. quite to the contrary. in one instance, justice thomas commended me, saying something like, keep up what you are doing, it's making a difference. >> wow. it's 5:00 in new york. that man is the reverend robert

shank. he is a whistle-blower who in recent months sought to shine a light on an effort by conservative activists and welt wealthy donors to influence justices of the supreme court. his disclosure was revealed in a piece of reporting in "the new york times" a little over two weeks ago. we covered that here on this program at the time. it was a stunning allegation against the conservative justices on the highest court made by a conservative activist. of course, that court, as you know, is under heavy scrutiny following the leak earlier this year of the draft of the dobbs decision overturning roe v. wade. he appeared today before the house judiciary committee and explained in detail his efforts to court the court.

>> operation higher court involved my recruitment of wealthy donors as stealth missionaries who befriended justices that shared our conservative social and religious sensibilities. in this way, i aimed to show these justices that americans supported them and thanked god for their presence on the court and the opinions they rendered. i did suggest tactics to cultivate affinity, but otherwise, other folks were on their own. most of them limit third support to regular prayers on behalf of the justices' family, warm personal greetings and assurances of good will at social functions and sending greeting cards on special occasions. but they might also host justices or their spouses for meals at restaurants, private clubs or their homes and sometimes the justices resip indicated. the hobby lobby leak resulted from one of these arrangements.

>> what they did was not illegal. the chairman of the house judiciary committee acknowledged that during today's hearing. >> to be clear, no one in the story broke the rules. that is the problem. if the supreme court were subject to a code of ethics like the rest of the federal judiciary and like the legislative and executive branchs, they would need to follow guidelines. the moral of the story is this. supreme court justices cannot effectively self-police their own ethics. >> it's where we begin the hour. eric swalwell of california joins us. he is a member of the house judiciary committee. take me through the importance of what happened today and what you hope comes of it. >> today americans heard that a

court that's supposed to be impartial, independent and separate from certainly church, outside organizations, cases before it, is too cozy with people coming before the court. they heard from somebody who for many years worked to do that. so the reverend was credible. i asked him if he had been paid at all for his testimony or the reporting that's come from "the new york times." he said, of course not. i ask them what this cost him. he received a number of death threats. he had no reason in the world to come forward other than what he said was to tell the truth and hopefully restore the independence of the court. >> my sense of what he is alleging is -- as congressman nadler said is because he has blown back the curtain on something. how does a court that has gone

from 60 to 40 to 33 to 22% approval among the entire american public question that it has a problem? >> it was gross. that's the best word i could use to describe the type of coziness between these groups with cases before the courts and the justices. so the court should embrace and ask congress to bring reforms. they're allowed do that. they come to congress to seek funding, to seek security. they should recognize that they have a problem, and they should ask us to bring reform, like a code of ethics, like more transparency around their financial interests, that could be a conflict of interest. also, to have a recusal regiment, where that judge would recuse himself. none of that takes place now.

i'm interested in exploring putting term limits on the court so that they are not so far away from any sort of accountability and transparency. >> you know what the biggest bombshell of the reverend's account is? it's how much they crave approval. i think that's apparent. we have taken a closer look at the public appearances of the conservative justices in the last 24 months and to a person, they wine and they moan and bellyache about the public not trusting them anymore, but i want to play this exchange between chairman nadler and the reverend about -- it's another example of how they undermine their own integrity and credibility. >> we are now left wondering how much of this decision upending decades of established precedent was influenced by the organized, wealthy donors lobbying to move them to the right.

>> we were concerned that some of them had assured, in their testimony during confirmation hearing, that roe v. wade was settled law and that maybe, just maybe other forces could work to intimidate them from coming after roe. so we wanted to create a circle of people around them that would encourage them, applaud them, literally thank god for them and assure them of prayerful support. >> the bombshell is that it worked. right? casey and roe are decided by justices appointed by republican and democratic presidents. overturning dobbs is decided among strict partisan lines in

terms of taking away a right that americans have had for 50 years and a right that all the justices affirm they saw as settled law. the scary thing is what they did worked. what do you do about that? >> again, to put in place laws around influence peddling as it relates to the court. it's clear the court will not police itself. we bestow upon these justices that no one else in government is given. that's a job for life. the reason we do that is because they're supposed to be supremely independent from influence peddling, independent from outside forces lobbying them in any way. they have broken that trust. because that thrust has been broken, reforms need to be made. >> what is the appetite for any engagement with the legislative branch? are there any conversations among the chief justice who

seems deeply pained that the american public -- let me put the numbers up. in 2021, 36% of americans had a great deal or a lot of confidence notice supreme court. that's according to gallop. that was down 24 points since 2000. in 2022, it plunged 11 more points in 12 months. this is a crisis. if you care about the supreme court having the trust or the faith of or credibility among more than 25% of the american people. have they engaged you or shown any interest in a code of ethics? >> i have not seen that. i actually admire chief justice roberts and some of the statements he has made about making sure that the court is perceived as independent. i think he is the only one who can do this. he is chief among his peers. even if he is isolated on the conservative side as being one that's more reasonable, his job is going to have to be to work with his colleagues, stitch together a coalition that is

willing to speak publically about the need for reforms. it will be defined as the roberts court. i don't think this is how he wants that to be functionally it's not good for our system. no one is above the law if that's how it is perceived. >> i would like to add to our coverage brian fowland, dia lithwick, and here at the table with me, former republican congressman david jolly. you have a great quote we pulled up. you write this. the fact that some of the justices believe that casual and social relationships with lobbyists, activists and interested parties who have business before the court are appropriate and acceptable is the problem.

it means they cannot be trusted to avoid such contacts. the problem is that the same justices who keep blaming their colleagues and the press and the american public for broad declining trust in the institution seem to have no comprehension of what behaviors appear to be inappropriate because they actually are inappropriate. the ones whining the loudest seem to be the ones debasing the ability for the institution to even appear like it is above the political fray. the bombshell to me of what he is talking about is that they crave this support, they needed it at all, seems to fly in the face of what the supreme court is supposed to be and do. >> yeah. there's a weird sore winners spin to this story. justice alito flew to rome to

take a victory lap. there's no concession that the appearance of doing wildly partisan things mightpartisan. instead, what you get -- we heard a lot of this at the hearing. you just didn't like the result in dobbs. no. didn't like the result in dobbs, also don't think you should fly around the country and have dinners with big donors. they mushed it into the same problem. there's actually two problems, both solved by ethics reform. >> there seem to be all the problems that are universal and then the problems that are specific to justice thomas who has ruled on three cases involving the deadly january 6 insurrection while being married to and cohabitating with one of the architects to get fake electors in place to overturn joe biden's victory. is an ethics code enough to

address the concerns that have arisen around that? >> i mean, the ethics code, to the extent that you think about the code that applies to all other article 3 judges, every other life tenured federal judge has an ethics code that is applied and can be enforced. it includes language that says, if you have an interest in the case, if you have an interest in the outcome, you should recuse. it also includes very broad language about avoiding the appearance of impropriety. judges know what that means. the problem, as we talked about before, is that code is not enforced or enforceable, we're told, against the nine justices. the chief justice has said they consult the ethics rules, the way you consult a phone book. but until something can be enforced against them, it's never going to be enough. >> brian, the perception is the

problem. right? for the court, they don't disagree about the problem. the conservative justices give speeches year round about their perception problem. so they see it as we see it. they just don't want to be part of the solution. they want to project, the fact that republican and democratic appointed justices both were in the majority in casey and roe is lost on them when this super conservative majority overturns roe v. wade. what is it -- how are they so insular and incapable of holding up an actual mirror to, i think, an institution and perhaps the gravest public confidence over with a 25% approval rating. >> they are too insulated. that's what allowed the reverend's strategy at the former influence peddling group that he ran to be successful. i think he did a great job

articulating that in the clip you played a moment ago. he admitted that the far right legal movement knows that their agenda is very unpopular. they are constantly worried these justices, once they get on the court, will lose their nerve to see through things like overturning the roe decision. they felt a need to build up an alternate universe where the justices would be reassured they were doing god's will to make it harder for people to vote and make it impossible to impose common sense gun safety restrictions and allow for access to contraception for women. to some extent what he was saying was explosive. this is it what the federalist society does out in the open every day. the federalist society exists because they became concerned that for years republican presidents were nominating people like john paul stevens or david suitor who once they got on the court were liberal. the federal society exists to create that same amen chorus for the justices so they can show up

in a tuxedoed way and speak at their annual gala and be applauded and cheered and it further walls them off from the true backlash that this court is starting to provoke with the public. alone may be john roberts cares about the reputation. the rest are outcome based. they seem like they are hell bent on carrying out the mission that they were put on the court to do. >> a piece of it is certainly the seemingly increasingly partisan and extreme nature of their rulings. the other piece of it is how out of step they are with the majority of americans. >> sure. >> on guns, on choice, on other issues. what is sort of the -- what is the reluctance to actually having a conversation about court reform? >> i think it's a reflection of this is the hardest line conservative court in generations. we're going to now live within that context now for decades.

i think what is groundbreaking is that it identifies the third leg of an aggressive conservative strategy around the courts. first is conservative lawyers across the country and through the federalist society that brian mentioned and others, try to elevate judicial questions to the high court to create an environment where conservative courts -- >> manufactured cases to -- >> i would suggest that on all sides of legal questions, you want to get the question to the highest court so the ruling can be dispositive. in hobby lobby or the case this week, can a person in private person discriminate based on their beliefs, and every ruling has a tailwind where all the lawyers figure out, if we get a

different case, we can get a different outcome. that happens all the time. nothing illegal by it. that's the first strategy conservatives have used for decades. the second is the swampy one. there's a club out of washington, d.c., federalist society and others, that elevate the judges and know how to play politics to make sure presidents and senators are aware of, when we get another shot, here is our hit list of the really -- >> o'connell used to carry it. >> not illegal but swampy. very swampy. this gets into the ginni thomas stuff, though she doesn't practice law. the third is what we learned today, the high court is being lobied to influence the decisions when they reach the court. congressman swalwell is right. if it's not unethical -- i believe it is.

i think swalwell is right, that's not enough. laws are necessary. >> your name has been invoked. we will give you the last word. are laws possible, probable, likely, fantasy? tell me what we are looking at in terms of managing the public's expectations that this court that as we sit here today only has the support of 25% of americans? that's down 11 points in one year. it's down about 30 points in 20 years. >> they are hanging around congressional support numbers. no one wants to be there. nice to see my former -- >> which are right above media numbers. >> yes. nice to see david jolly. i would invite my republican colleagues -- they have every interest in seeing these reforms forward. who knows if there would be a day where you would have democratically appointed justices cozying up and being

influenced by crowd side groups. it could happen. we all have an interest in preserving or restoring and redeeming the integrity of the court. they should welcome this and not see this as zero sum that they win, we lose, or we win, they lose. we all lose if the court is perceived as not being impartial. >> take the court out of it. what institutions sitting at 25% reject ethics reforms, congressman? >> not any institution that wants to be around and have credibility. >> it's just a -- it's not a sustainable path to be on. i think based on their public comments, they seem aware of that as well. congressman, thank you for starting us off on this story. the panel sticks around with us a little longer. we will have more on the u.s. supreme court and the loss of trust americans say they have in it. something that won't be helped now that lawmakers just added a new provision today that would

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you're puss in boots? normally i have a sword. -ok? ♪ ♪ i need that wishing star to get my life back. it's like a possum crawled on your face and died. please, mock me quietly. earlier today, the house passed the national defense

authorization act. it included a provision that allows federal and supreme court justices to keep information about their family members hidden from public view. it was crafted with safety in mind. that's a good thing. it was in response to the murder of a son of a federal judge in new jersey two years ago, a horrific crime. this provision could also enable ginni thomas, wife of justice clarence thomas, to keep her entanglements more of a secret, alarming considering how much we learned about her involvement in efforts to overturn the 2020 election. we are back with the panel. threats to the court, to all judges are real. they should be protected vigorously. transparency should be able to coexist with security. what do you make of this? >> i mean, it's an interesting problem, because we just finished a segment talking about there's not going to be inchi e

rules and now not any oversight. it's a problem. you have an institution with unparalleled power, lifetime appointments, unbelievable so little transparency in every quarter. then you hear it's going to be harder for journalists to report on, to find out about just basic conflict of interest. it feels like it's two sides of the same coin. on one hand, justices aren't bound by any ethics rules. on the other, it's harder to find out anything we might possibly be able to know about how they are conducting their lives. to be clear, clarence thomas has failed in the past to report income that ginni thomas made. that, i guess, is now off the table. >> yeah. brian, i think you have made this point before. it's going to have to come from within the court. they are going to have to decide

that going from over 60 to 40 to 36 to 25% approval rating and the last drop in the last 11 months is unacceptable to them. what, based on your knowledge of these specific humans on this current version of the supreme court, where do you put the possibility that that conversation even takes place? >> i have to say, if it's left to the justices, they have proven they have no desire to police themselves. the letter that got sent back to senator whitehouse after "the new york times" report was just basically told them to go screw. justice alito told us that he didn't do anything wrong. we take him at his word. there's nothing further to investigate. they are daring congress do anything about it. i think it's going to have to come from without. it will have to be imposed by congress.

it's a matter of whether democrats will summon the will to do something and pass not just an ethics bill but structural reform. we know too little about clarence thomas and ginni thomas' entanglements. he is required who his wife's employer is. he does that. he does it in the minimum way. he lists the business she runs, her private consulting business. we don't know her clients. he doesn't have to disclose the people that pay ginni thomas. that's how the influence campaigns get waged. it's too lax, reporting disclosure. the idea we would redact that goes too far. i think there's efforts to try to change this provision. we will see if they can do it in time. >> david, if you care about institutions -- there's no evidence that suggests that john roberts does not. in fact, the opposite. i remember when he was elevated to chief, it was in part because

of his sort of humanity and the care with which he seemed to hold the institution. you look at -- i detected he felt great pride in being part of the historic decisions. like affirming obamacare. he now seems like a hostage of the far right wing of the court. >> yeah. hostage is a good word. you are right on roberts' leadership. he vaulted to become chief justice ahead of other possible picks. it was in part because of the respect for the institution, the quiet conservative he was, that was going to keep the court within the guardrails.ly outsid now. he is a hostage to the other members or is it a court that fails to correct its own behavior? the court can fix this themselves. the justices could stop giving the speeches, stop attending these events, stay out of these environments. that's part of the exchange for a lifetime appointment, you are supposed to stand outside of the

reach of influence. this court is deciding not to do that. when you are talking about a provision that would eliminate disclosure requirements, it's a garbage provision. the white house should weigh in very loud on this one. if you just take clarence thomas, he did have to amend his filings before, 20 years' worth. that was in 2011. he had to amend 20 years' worth of filings regarding his wife's income. it's a minimum. you list your spouse's employment. don't list anything else. it's at least a kernel of where could the other places of influence be so watchdog organizations and the american people can see. >> i have a feeling this conversation is to be continued. thank you for joining us today. david jolly sticks around for the rest of the hour. still ahead, a lawsuit by members of the house of representatives and the naacp seeking to hold the twice-impeached disgraced ex-president accountable for

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reading social media, listening to this man in the white house and the type of violence that he was perpetrating, what he was instigating, i knew that something was going to go down.

i didn't know what. i wore my tennis shoes on wednesday. >> that interview stayed with me for the last two years. it was a chilling moment on this program with congresswoman barbara lee shortly after the january 6 insurrection about her experiences on that day. so many lawmakers have shared their horrific stories about being in the capitol that day, what they were braced for, from being trapped in small rooms praying that the doors would be strong enough to protect them from everything on the other side, to contemplating where to be buried. the night before, linda sanchez told her husband where her will was just in case. as part of the reason why nearly a dozen house members joined a federal lawsuit to hold the ex-president and rudy giuliani accountable for their attempts to mobilize the rioters, for conspireing use of violence and intimidation they say directly violated the ku klux klan act of 1871. joining us, barbara lee of california. she's a plaintiff on this lawsuit and helped argue the

case yesterday in a d.c. appeals court. joining our coverage, charlie sykes, an msnbc contributor. i played that interview of you wearing your sneakers i think a half a dozen times, because if you knew, then we know that they knew. trump knew. rudy knew. his allies in congress knew. talk about the lawsuit. >> sure. basically, first, thank you for having me tonight. really appreciate being here with your esteemed panel. the lawsuit really is very basic. what we want to do is to hold those responsible for the insurrection that occurred on january 6 that almost -- almost toppled our democracy. but once again, we are strong as a country and it did not happen. but we were close. so we want to hold those accountable. people died during that attempted coup.

the peaceful transfer of power was almost thwarted. it's time that we hold donald trump and the oath keepers and the proud boys and rudy giuliani accountable. no one is above the law. that's what we are seeking is accountability and punitive damages. we want transparency. we want these people to be held accountable and justice to be done. we are moving forward with the naacp, which we have a phenomenal legal team. we have ten plaintiffs. i'm the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit, because chairman thompson, of course, is chairing the select committee. we are going to make sure that all the facts are put out, that our personal stories are told. i was one who had to go back and do many things in terms of my will and what i had to prepare for, because we were this close to being killed. >> the fact that republicans hid -- there's hours and hours of tape that we have all seen now, that they ran. it's not like democrats were running any faster or slower than republicans.

the threat of violence has been proven over and over again in security footage, in the conversations taped between kevin mccarthy and his own members that were revealed by reporters. i mean, what is the evidence that you need to muster to win the case under the kkk act of 1871? it seems like a lot is already in the public arena. >> a lot of it is. but a lot of it isn't. let me just say, we're using every instrument, every tool in our toolbox to bring these people to justice. we have the justice department. of course, we have the january 6 committee. we have a variety of legal cases moving forward. the ten of us, the plaintiffs in this lawsuit have a lot of evidence. in fact, a couple of things -- our gas masks. we were told to put on our gas masks. that seems like really unusual, but that's normal for us. the trauma associated with this. there were many members who

barely got out who were in the gallery. the issue around covid. many members got covid because we had to evacuate. many republicans would not wear masks. there's trauma, damages, life-long mental health issues. when you look at our brave capitol hill police officers -- i'm glad we presented them with a congressional medal of honor. because they -- we are doing this for them also. so that they know justice is going to be served. i really am thankful for allowing me to be the lead plaintiff. one, people were killed. people were almost killed. peaceful transfer of power was almost thwarted. our democracy almost was toppled. it withstood the test of time. we have to at least understand, we need to move forward and strengthen it. it's a wake-up call. this lawsuit will lay out the facts from all of us about what happened personally and then what happened as it relates to

our country and what we have to do to make sure this never, ever, ever happens again. >> charlie, i want to bring you in on this. if i had to muster evidence of knowledge of criminality, i would start with former trump deputy lawyer air citing all th felonies he thought eastman and all of the people around trump and trump could potentially have been committing on that day. the knowledge of potential criminality and illegality has been introduced so painstakingly by the january 6 select committee that it would seem that this case and -- the congresswoman said they have amassed a lot of evidence. there's a lot in the public of team trump's concerns and knowledge of criminality. >> yeah. this lawsuit is awfully interesting. it's important on a number of levels.

including establishing that donald trump is not immune from this sort of accountability. it's also important, as you have demonstrated over and over again, how important it is not to memory hole this. to hold everybody accountable. the evidence, i think, is overwhelming. i do think that there is -- there have been recent developments that i don't think are fully appreciated yet. i think really go to the heart of your question, which includes the fact that donald trump and many of his allies are overtly now encouraging and expressing solidarity and support for the rioters on january 6. every week we get more evidence that, in fact, they look at what happened on january 6 and they applaud it. they will come to the defense. they will say that they will treat them fairly. donald trump has explicitly dangled the prospect of pardons, if he gets back into power.

i'm hoping that in these lawsuits and the investigation that people are willing to, in some ways, retrofit this, to reverse engineer and say, donald trump is now acknowledging that he supported what happened on january 6. because that is no longer in any question. he is not denying. he is saying, damn right, i'm going to do it again. i might, in fact, raise money for and pardon the people who were involved in the coup the first time around. >> it's so important to look at this heinous and ugly and terrifying stew of what is happening on this front. and your colleague writes about it, charlie. let me read this for our viewers who may have missed this.

this happened on december 1st. of course, they were in jail. congresswoman, what do you do, what do you make of -- >> extraordinary. >> of an incoming house leader who is going to give credibility, legitimacy and political power to insurrectionists? >> first, it's outrageous. i'm thankful you are doing these interviews. these individuals don't accept

the rule of law. they are lawless. we cannot have people who are sworn to uphold the constitution in leadership in congress who are attempting to dismantle our democracy. leader mccarthy should be ashamed of himself. that's really something that the public understands. to have people who support insurrectionists, who support people who want to overthrow the united states government, who wants to support people and put people in leadership who want to thwart the peaceful transfer of power and who coddle individuals and who help individuals and who praise individuals who do this should not be in leadership positions. we have to educate the public about what is taking place. they will be in positions where they can begin to chip away by legislation the central aspects of our democracy as it relates

to legislation and policies. they will be in key positions. you see they do not uphold the rule of law. >> i want to press all of you on why. i have to sneak in a quick break. don't go anywhere. we will all be right back. we will all be right back. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective

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we are back with congresswoman barbara lee, charlie sykes and david jolly.

in the jail are people convicted of seditious conspiracy, that's who he is aligning himself with protecting. >> we watch kevin mccarthy's own friends and colleagues laugh at how desperate he is to get to 218 votes. we have seen mccarthy give away the store to try to get to 218. it means elevating -- >> this is literally the jail. >> literally jail. i would say, kevin mccarthy is someone willing to tear down the house of representatives to have the opportunity to lead it. that's what he is doing. >> is it going to work? >> i don't think he can get do 218. this is next level stuff. he agreed to elevate marjorie taylor greene. part of that was go after anthony fauci, the absurdity. then, we will investigate hunter biden. we will we'll investigate hunte biden, afghanistan. i truly believe he's made the corrupt bargain that republicans will impeach joe biden. i think that deal's done. the reason this is next level is kevin mccarthy to become the

next speaker of the house is going to agree to defend rioters, condemn members of the capitol police force and law enforcement and be on the side of criminals. kevin mccarthy will come down on the side of criminals if that's what it takes to be speaker of the house. it's disgusting next level stuff. >> charlie, it is so -- it's a repellant for the voters. getting wiped out for the midterms doesn't give him pause for literally getting into bed in jail with convicted --? >> it should also affect his conscious. i thought one of the most significant moments of the week was during that gold medal ceremony with the law enforcement officers that the family of brian sicknick walked past kevin mccarthy and didn't even acknowledge him or shake his hand, and this was their way of saying, we know who you are and we know what you did, and we know what side you're on right

now. so here you have the leader of the party of law and order that says that it backs the blue willing to get into bed politically are marjorie taylor greene and her real contempt for law enforcement and aligning with the rioters. look, donald trump, in case there was any ambiguity, told us exactly who he was this week when he put out that statement saying he wanted to be restored to power so much he was prepared to throw out all of the laws, terminate the rules and throw tout constitution in order to get what he wants. this is the political culture. at the same time kevin mccarthy is potentially aligning himself with people who have been convicted of seditious conspiracy. there's nothing subtle about this. it is ugly, and it ought to be a moment of real -- real pangs of conscious for a party that apparently mislaid its conscious

years ago. >> congresswoman, i'm about two years post questioning the conscious of anyone governoring under the banner republican, but i do question how it's going to work. how's it going to work to be in a chamber led by someone -- and i think what the sicknick family did was frankly mild. because the thing kevin mccarthy is he actually sees the insurrection the same way the four of us do. we know because he said it on tape to his whole caucus, and it was recorded on tape, released by two "new york times" reporters. his only problem with impeaching donald trump is it wasn't fast enough. for kevin mccarthy, the -- was a faster way of ridding the country of donald trump. but something happened. he saw something we all saw, a president who incited deadly insurrection on the back burner to placate people who have been convict bid juries of their peers of seditious conspiracy on the front burner, politically

speaking home you do you work in a body led by someone like thatsome. >> first of all, we're going to push back and resist everything that they do. but secondly, we're very strategic, and we have been in the minority before, and we're going to work continually to work for the people, passing -- at least promoting and trying to pass legislation, trying to work with those we can work with on behalf of the public, on behalf of people in terms of their daily needs, trying to make life better each and every day. so we're going to continue with our democratic agenda at the same time we're going to resist this attempt to really establish -- i'm telling you, nicolle, this is really the establishment within congress -- what mccarthy wants to do is be an extension of donald trump who has been exposed as having dicta electoral tendencies. he does not believe in democracy. he cozys up and admires

dictators. he leans in the direction of being an authoritarian kind of leader who has just really embraced white supremacy. he's having dinner with people who promote anti-semitism. he's anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, tried to deny the legitimacy of president barack obama in terms of white supremacy. so all of this comes together. and mccarthy is promoting this with inside of the house of representatives with these individuals. so what democrats are going to do, we're going to keep fighting. you see the public is with us. we're up for it, and we're not going let them tamper with our democracy, and we're going to step up and continue to fight to make people's lives better, at the same time protect our democracy and protect people from these insurrectionists who are beginning to rise in leadership in the congress. >> you get the last word.

>> i still don't think kevin mccarthy becomes speaker, but if he does, he'll be one of the weakest we've seen because of the work he's done to get there, but also because of the work of congressman lee who. watch january 3rd. i think it could be a multiple ballot situation and mccarthy doesn't get there. >> what are the scenarios then? >> first scenario is he can't get to 218. who's running against him? who could? watch steve scalise, tom cole, fred upton from michigan. but a third scenario i would loof to see from my democratic friends is in a fred upton situation or tom cole, you're talk about 150 republicans maybe supporting that speaker and about 75 dems. the dems don't need to give away the store on an early ballot, but in a multiple ballot situation, the country could be much better off by a consensus candidate between the two

parties. >> i got give you the last word on that. any chance that would happen? >> you talking to me? >> yes, congresswoman. i don't know if you picked your jaw up off the table yet. >> you have a very interesting scenario that is plausible, but -- you know, getting to that point will expose what mccarthy has given away. and so it would be very dangerous to think that what he has offered to these individuals is so extreme that his full caucus would not accept it. so i would be worried and very scared of what has taken place if we get to that point. >> worried and scared i think are the words of the decade. congressman barbara lee. thank you so much. charlie sykes, david, thank you for spending time with us today. quick break for us. we'll be right back. 'll be righ. say hello to your fairy godmother alice and long lasting gain scent beads.

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