hi, everybody. it is finally friday and it's 4:00 in new york, right off the top. just so you know, we are watching a federal courthouse in washington where justice department officials have reportedly asked a judge to hold the office of donald trump in contempt for failing to comply with a grand jury's subpoena. that stems from the mar-a-lago classified document

investigation. if anything happens on that front, we will bring it to you right away. in the meantime, an enormous consequential weekend is ahead for the members of the january 6th select committee. it has all led to this. all the hard work done by this committee, the fact finding, the sifting through, the chasing down leads, all of it has brought us right here, to this weekend. on sunday, just as nfl games are kicking off, the committee will meet and reportedly consider one of its ultimate culminating questions. who exactly should be referred to the justice department for prosecution. as chairman bennie thompson made clear earlier in the week, there's an expectation that criminal referrals will be issued. the big unknown at this point, which of trump's henchman earned one? reporting over the past 24 hours from cnn and other outlets have suggested four names are at least under consideration. and while we shouldn't read into this, as any sort of final consensus list, these are the

key players who, to borrow a line from our friend, harry litman should be on your bingo card. there are no surprises here. we've heard about them in hearing after hearing. right-wing lawyer, john eastman. former doj official, jeffrey clark. rudy giuliani, and former trump chief of staff mark meadows. all of them dripping with criminal exposure. let's start with the first two, eastman and clark. eastman, was, of course, the one who insisted that mike pence had unilateral authority to block certification, and clark then tried to weaponize doj after the election. and under questioning, they both took a similar approach. >> did you discuss the letter to georgia officials with the president of the united states? >> executive privilege again, just re-stated for the abundance of caution. >> isn't that, in fact, contrary to what attorney general barr had said on december 1st, 2020? >> i assert my fifth amendment right against being compelled to be a witness against my

statement. >> is that statement in this memo true? >> fifth. >> did president trump authorize you to discuss publicly your january 4th, 2021 conversation with him? >> fifth. >> they took it so many times, they had to shortcut it to "fifth." and then there's rudy. not only did rudy assist and manage, really quarterback the fake elector scheme, he knew there was never any proof of fraud. listen to what he told one strait legislator, rusty bowers, of arizona. >> he said, we've got lots of theories, we just don't have the evidence. and i don't know if that was a gaffe or maybe he didn't think through what he said, but both myself and others in my group, the three in my group and my counsel both remembered that specifically and afterwards, we kind of laughed about it. >> as one does when rudy is the subject. finally, mark meadows, the linchpin. the man at the center of

everything. his criminal exposure was laid bare over and over and over again in these public hearings, but perhaps no more so than in the testimony of his former aide, cassidy hutchinson. >> after mr. giuliani had left the campus that evening, i went back up to our office and i found mr. meadows in his office on the couch. he was scrolling through his phone. i remember leaning against the doorway and saying, i just had an interesting conversation with rudy, mark. it sounds like we're going to go to the capitol. he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, there's a lot going on, casse, but i don't know. thing might get real, real bad on january 6th. >> eastman, clark, giuliani, meadows, don't forget about the fifth name, the most important one of all, donald trump himself. will the ex-president be referred to doj for prosecution? it's not a question anyone can answer just yet, but the clock is ticking. that january 6th select committee's vital final weekend is where we begin today with

some of our favorite reporters and friends. harry litman is here, a former u.s. attorney and former deputy attorney general. luke broadwater is here and john heilemann joins us. he is the host and executive producer of showtime's "the circus," the executive editor of "recount," and an msnbc national affairs analyst. harry, since you coined the bin go card and put some of these names on it, take us through what you think the committee is deliberating this weekend? >> well, so i think, first and foremost, and i suggested this, every bingo card should have in the center donald trump. it's near inconceivable to me that they would make a referral or more, and we know already that they're going to make at least one and it not be trump. it's really the thrust of what they've been going toward for several months. and notice who the sub-committee is that's going to be carrying the water, as far as recommendations go. raskin, schiff, cheney, lofgren. those are four members who i

think will not hesitate to pull the trigger on trump. as to these others, nicole, they are ones for whom even if they didn't cooperate, the part that we saw in front of us in a series of hearings really do give ample evidence of criminal exposure. i'm eager -- i hate to be eager about criminal liability, but mark meadows, i think, has really skated so far and it would be very just if we were in the mix. finally, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. there's all kinds of things that happened behind the scenes that could engender referrals, either process wise or to the doj, for example, did he lie to them. would that be a referral for that? even potentially the members of congress, but probably to the ethics committee. but i see trump as being in the center of all bingo cards, a sort of automatic for all. >> yeah, and luke, i understand what harry is saying and this

idea that we're eager to see what the committee does. it's not just a question of the long criminality, right? this committee has to make a decision about where their maximum impact lies. and there's already been some great reporting from your news organization and others that there is at least a discussion, debate may be too strong of a word, about whether to keep all of the final, you know, sort of act focused on trump or whether to expand it to others. what is your sense of where those conversations stand among committee members. >> well, we know that the subcommittee, so to speak, is preparing their recommendations right now. they haven't made them yet to the full committee. there'll be sort of three buckets that they're going to present to the rest of the body. the first is anybody they believe committed a criminal offense as part of the underlying crime. those people that we just mentioned. donald trump, john eastman, in

particular. they have already argued in court that both of them committed federalfulness. those are pretty obvious ones right now. the second is anyone is because anyone they thought obstructed justice. those could be those calls we heard to cassidy hutchison, it could people who lied to the committee or misled the committee. the third is what to do about the members of congress. those five republicans, including kevin mccarthy and whether they should be referred out to justice or referred internally to the ethics committee, or perhaps do nothing at all. and there's a lot of debate among the members themselves about that. there's some who believe that congress is a self-policing body and should handle its own matters internally. so there's a lot of debate and discussion. it may well be that the subcommittee sort of gives options to the rest of the committee, and we see a sort of formal action taken later this

month, closer to christmas. so this will be something that they discuss for a long time, but they want to make sure that whatever they do has the facts and the law behind it and is not seen as a political reach. >> and just so we understand, is this weekend's meeting just to deal with this specific set of final consensus decision about -- they've decided that there will be criminal referrals, and now what the committee has to agree to is for whom and how many? >> one thing about this committee, they actually don't really vote behind closed doors. they achieve their decisions mostly by consensus. so when bennie thompson came out and said, you know, there's a general understanding that we're going to do criminal referrals, but we haven't voted yet, that's him explaining that they've arrived at this decision internally without a formal vote. so i think it will be somewhat like that on sunday.

where there's discussion, if there's anything that seemed as too far afield, and somebody has a real problem with it, that might get tossed out. and they -- it will be a discussion and a give and take before there is any formal vote later this month. >> john heilemann, some of the members of the committee have worked hard in their appearances at least on this show to state and restate that a criminal referral -- we're not a criminal body. it doesn't mean anything. i've never bought that. i think congress referred roger clemens for prosecution. i think it exists because it is more than meaningless. and i think in this investigation in particular, where it is clear that the congressional committee is ahead of in terms of bringing people in and definitely ahead of putting into the public arena the evidence that had been gathered, i think these could have, if not a prosecutorial significance a real impact on the public pressure to hold some of these people accountable. what is your sense, if you agree

about the assessment of the importance, about who they will refer? what would you guess? >> well, i think it's important, nicole, and hello, happy friday. i think it's important that the committee -- i think it's kind of important that the committee get to this. i think this is driving towards this. the notion that was floated earlier, if you recall, in the investigation at various times by various members, maybe they wouldn't make criminal referrals at all, and that there was some division on the committee about that, months ago. i think a lot of that seemed at the time faintly ludicrous to me, especially as we started to see more and more of the evidence. i'm glad that now the committee has come together and decided that referrals are going to happen, at least as harry said, at least one. it seems like an important -- given what we've seen, given what seems to many of us, and i'm -- i would say i'm not a lawyer nor do i play one on tv, but what seems like clear evidence of criminality on the part of multiple people, it's great -- it's important that the committee bring its work to

conclusion here by taking this final step. what doesn't matter is, pregnant doesn't matters as far as what the past referrals have led to out of the department of justice. there's never been a case like this before. you can argue that goes in both directions or in either direction. i don't have any idea -- maybe harry has a better idea whether these referrals will in fact have a prosecutorial impact or not. it's clear that the committee's investigation has fueled thing at the doj level. it's clear that things that we saw this summer will push the doj in terms of public pressure to get going on -- to pick up its pace and get going on some of their investigations that they were undertaking, ones that do have potential clear -- clear potential criminal legal implications. but i don't know at this moment

as we sit here whether merrick garland, who ultimately will have to make the decision probably in all of these cases himself, whether merrick garland will be moved by either what the committee -- the referrals that came out of the committee or by the extensive public pressure that he seems to be, to this day, pretty much immune to all of that. very, very driven by the law, very driven by proprpropriety, driven by trying to make sure the doj is not seen as a political institution. but not so far given any evidence -- there's not any evidence out there that he's been driven by popular opinion, by political pleasure, or when it comes to at least handing out indictments by so far what the committee says, doesn't say, does, does or doesn't do. i believe that we all are in a little bit of suspended animation and suspense about that question and uncertainty. >> harry, i think i have to say, i think that is by design.

the justice department and the current attorney general is immune to public pressure. that is as it should be. and i think the committee is probably aware of that. but it seems that perhaps what heilemann is getting at and the committee is getting at is under the referral, they will amass and present evidence. and what do you think the strongest evidence is, under that referral, that would lead to what john's talking about, an eventual prosecution? >> well, first, let me just speak to john's point. i don't think it's a mystery, i think we can assume that, in fact, garland will be impervious. nevertheless, from having said before, they said that congress has its own job to sort of wrap this up. moreover, there is a kind of deep breath quality for the -- all of us society to see trump actually charged in that way by a government body. and then, finally, there's an important all the president's men aspect.

think back to watergate. it's going to be really important for people to be thinking, whatever happens to trump of some prosecutions of the -- of some of these colleagues. to your direct question, the strongest, i think, is to eastman. so they've really focused on the role of the phony electors. they have him dead to rights. there's a lot on other things, as well, but i think the biggest details other than trump who's suey generous in all matters is to eastman himself and the most likely kind of referral that the department will jump on. >> let me show you some of the evidence loop that the committee has amassed against mark meadows, as well. his name comes up. this is cassidy hutchison. >> i had made it clear to mr. meadows that i didn't believe it was a smart idea for him to go to the hotel that night. i wasn't sure everything that was going on at the willard hotel, although i knew enough about what mr. giuliani and his

associates were pushing during this period. i didn't think that it was something appropriate for the white house chief of staff to attend or to consider involvement in. i made that clear to mr. meadows. throughout the afternoon, he mentioned a few more times going up to the willard hotel that evening. and then eventually dropped the subject the night of the 5th and said that he would dial in, instead. >> i mean, i guess, my question about cassidy is, it is such a nuanced understand, not just of everything that meadows did, but of everything meadows considered doing and of everything she suggested that meadows not do. and of all the reasons why she didn't think it was a good idea, for mark meadows -- who by this point he had traveled to georgia to try to overturn the results of the election. he had gone and come back already. and she draws a line at going to the willard. i mean, cassidy hutchison is a witness against meadows, seems to be one of the most direct links between a witness to

potential criminality and a potential target of a criminal investigation. >> yeah, meadows was really central to donald trump's efforts to overturn the election. he had his hands in a number of different aspects of the scheme, including amassing the crowd on january 6th, in touch with rally organizers to bring all of those people to the capitol, as you mentioned, he traveled to georgia to try to push the overturning of various states' elections. you know, and if cassidy hutchison -- if he listened to cassidy hutchison's advice and didn't go through with some of the things, he maybe should send her a christmas card and thank you for that. it will be an interesting -- it will be an interesting choice, though, for the committee. because they have referred meadows once, on his failure to comply with the subpoena. and the justice department did not prosecute that case. if they refer him a second time

on different -- on different allegations, i'm sure that will be a consider for the committee. that, you know, we tried once, justice rejected it. should we try again with these different allegations against the same individual. you know, i'm sure that will be a topic that comes up this sunday when the committee discusses this matter. because it is a fair question. >> john, you know, these names, clark, eastman, rudy, and meadows are interesting, but they're also known to already be, in one way or another, under scrutiny for their conduct on that day. i wonder about people that in the final public hearing, they made clear, had lied to them. and whether or not there'll be a criminal referral to any of the secret service agent who is multiple members of the select committee had accused of lying on tv. >> well, i think, you know, nicole, that is a very good question. and those are the kinds of -- i think there's this large-scale

question, particularly with respect tonight secret service that doesn't just go to individual secret service agents, but to the totality of what secret service, its performance on that day. and in some cases, not just on that day. and i think that there would be a power to the committee, again, whether or not -- whatever the justice department decides to do with these referrals. to the extent that this moment is going to have power and harry alluded to something like that that i'm kind of pointing to it himself. this is a -- this is the end state, right? all of this work, as you said in the beginning has been driving towards this. and the committee standing up in unison and saying, these people have committed crimes. we do not have the power to charge these crimes, but they have committed crimes. that's the adjustment of this bipartisan select committee. it has a certain kind of power. whether or not it has political influence. it has historical power. it has a kind of a summary judgment power and i think if there was an indictment that went down to the secret service agents, as you're pointing to, i

think it would be potentially powerful in reminding people that there's a systemic problem that was revealed over the course of all of these investigations with what was going on with the secret service and it would keep some amount of political pressure on efforts to reform that agency and to keep looking at it and not let that thing slip into a memory hole. i think we need to keep our eye on that ball, a lot of very troubling evidence were induced on that. >> i guess, harry, i bring that up. that is a potential crime where congress is the victim, right? lying to congress is sort of onpar with bannon defy his subpoena, being held in contempt of defying his subpoena from this committee. do you think those should be on the table? >> i think they should and they are and to luke's point, i know they took a pass at justice on meadows, but that was really because of the nature of the charge and the communications. as to this, i think i got one

word for you to close out, a very tumultuous week, arnadeau. >> i think johnny arnadeau, as much as said, he lied to them. cassidy hutchison was such an incredible witness. there was this back and forth about how much president trump wanted to go to the ellipse and whether or not he grabbed the wheel. arnadeau came in three times, he left his job to avoid coming to them, whether he testified or not. testifying would be perjury, even if he didn't, it would be another crime, 1001, they were pissed, they called him back a third time. it's part of this huge body of things that we haven't seen. they curated very carefully to show us the best evidence. these kind of lies and process crimes would be behind the scenes. finally, i don't think they've set the table enough for the members of congress to go to

doj. i think it would have been ethics. >> and i think there's a lot of awareness about the power shift that is upon all of them. luke, i'm going to give you the last word now, because of what was just said about arnadeau. i know there was a real concerted effort to give him multiple opportunities to clarify/clean up what they viewed as untruthful testimony. do you have any sense the final disposition of their sense of the credibility of his final appearances before the select committee? >> so, the members, from my knowledge, from the people i've talked with, tony arnadeau did not remember many of the key things that they wanted to hear from him when he was interviewed by the committee. it was, i don't recall that or i don't want remember this or that. and they didn't believe that that was true, because how could

he not remember some of these things? >> and so there's a sense from the members that he was not fully honest with them. but it was not -- it wasn't so much that he was telling a direct contradiction to cassidy hutchison's testimony. sometimes he just said that he couldn't remember certain things that she had testified to. so, you know, it may well be that that is laid out in the final report and they let the people decide who the liar is there or who has anesthesia amnesia there, but we'll see whether he's among the referrals or whether it's simply laid out as somebody who had a memory that failed them repeatedly. >> and the memory failure, i think, was on the third pass, right? at first, it was a direct contradiction, and then it sort of evolved. >> that's my understanding. >> yeah. harry and luke, thank you so much. this has been an incredible

story. luke, your reporting has told us most of what we know about it. thank you for being here today. heilemann sticks around. when we come back, she is home. the wnba superstar brittney griner lands in the united states after a harrowing ten-month ordeal in russian custody. and trevor noah's material good-bye to "the daily show." and later in the program, the justice department looking to hold team court in failure of contempt may not be even close to the worst thing that's happened to the ex-president this week in the mountain of criminal investigations and scandals he's facing. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i promise to serve, not sell. i promise our relationship will be one of partnership and trust. i am a fiduciary, not just some of the time, but all of the time.

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she's on the ground. >> stop it. >> yep, she's on the ground. >> great day. this is such a good day! oh, my god! >> incredible to see! that was the moment that cherelle greiner found out that her wife, wnba superstar brittney griner was on the ground in the usa. she landed in san antonio, texas, completing one of the high-profile prisoner swaps between the u.s. and russia since the cold war. according to john kirby, greiner appeared to be in good health and spirits upon her arrival. joining our coverage, the reverend al sharpton, host of msnbc's "politics nation" and john heilemann still here.

rev, i know you worked on this, you worked towards this. you're part of why this happened. tell me your thoughts and reaction and how you found out about it and you felt. >> well, i am very happy that this had happened. and i give president biden and secretary blinken a lot of credit, because many of us that had been raising this issue, i was able to talk directly with them early, after talking to cherelle, britney's wife, and they staid on it. and i would be at the white house on different issues and the president would say to me, don't worry about it, al, i haven't forgot about brittney. they would stay on it, negotiations, they would brief us. and then i learned right before it happened, they were getting ready to break the news. i don't think cherelle knew until she was in the white

house. she thought she was coming for a briefing. and i think it's important because clearly, brittney greiner was being used as a political pawn by putin. this happened right before, as they were doing the invasion of ukraine. he wanted a pawn that he could use as a chip to negotiate from. people need to understand, brittney had been going to russia for years, playing with the russian women's basketball team. so it wasn't like they didn't know who she was, it wasn't like the medical things that she were using, the cartridges with the cannabis, they did not know about. this was a timing and putin called in a real political pawn chip that i think that this president was able to negotiate around. and i'm very happy that it happened. we also must continue to be vigilant and support paul whelan. because he also, i think, is

part of a political pawn scheme by putin. so as we celebrate brittney, i'm sure he will be saying, let's not forget others that are there are in russia that has been the victim of putin trying to play this geopolitical game. >> john heilemann, there isn't anyone who celebrates the release of brittney griner without talking about paul whelan, and paul whelan did an interview yesterday, his family has done multiple interviews saying that bringing brittney griner home was the right thing to do. there's only one pocket in the american discourse that doesn't approve of the return of brittney griner to the united states of america. and it's only important to note, because it is a marker of this sort of debasing of u.s. foreign policy, because during the trump administration, he, too, had some success in returning political prisoners and

hostages. and i don't have any recollection of anybody across the ideological spectrum ever doing anything other than celebrating the return of any american to the united states of america. that's not happening over on fox news. tucker carlson claimed that the u.s. advocated harder for greiner's release, because it would be more popular with biden voters. marjory taylor green went further and said it's another reason to impeach joe biden. again, i bring this up because i believe there are markers about how sick our politics are and this appears to be an important one. >> yeah, nicole, the release of brittney griner literally brought a tear to my eye. and the kind of debates we used to have about this were nonpartisan debates where it was like, is it okay to make these kind of trades, because it might send a signal to other countries that they could get away with this kind of thing.

regardless of who the prisoner was, is it good foreign policy to do these kind of swaps, because of the incentive that it sets up. would this induce more bad behavior on the part of other bad actors. that was a reasonable question to ask in the brittney griner case. you have those kind of academic debates and think about someone who has been made a political pawn. and they get to be freed. and you say, i'm just so glad this person is home. that doesn't matter whether that person is republican or democrat or straight or gay or public or white. they're all -- they all have been, in any given of these cases, they've all been subjected to the worst kind of abuse. they've been put into a situation where they've been made the pawns in this political game. and they've suffered enormously over time. and you're just delighted that any one of them comes back and so to see, as you say, to see these republicans, not just republicans, i would say, this is mostly the province of the anti-woke cultural right, the nuthouse right, the fox media right, the worse than fox media

right, the marjory taylor green right, not just republicans, there are plenty of republicans happy that brittney griner got released. but to put this into part of their -- i'm so close to saying a bunch of words i'm not supposed to say on television, to turn this into their fraudulent, fake, faux outrage culture war claptrap, i'll use that word instead of the one that goes bullshit, i'll say, i think we can say it on tv. >> bill barr does. >> it's so low and so repulsive. and the idea that joe biden is sitting around going, well, because she's non-white and she's gay, i can -- i'll get more political points out of it. this is a ludicrous. it's ludicrous and it's based on nothing other than the desire of people like tucker carlson and people like marjory taylor green to just try to rev up their base, make america hate each other rather than allowing everybody to have a moment where we can celebrate something.

it's like, let's take an opportunity to drive these divisions deeper, get cheap ratings points on it. it's baseless welcome factless -- fact-free, untethered from reality and the worst kind of like hatemongering in a moment where we should be able to have some kind of unified national celebration. i mean, it's a friday, morning. i don't like to start the weekend sick to my stomach, but watching some of this commentary has made he sick to my stomach over the last 24 hours and it's a marker of how low some of us have sunk. >> it's also important as we head to january 3rd, rev, because kevin mccarthy is trying to get enough votes to be the speaker, and one of the people whose support he needs is marjory taylor green. if her position is that biden should be impeached because of this, it is a known issue unknown, what he has promised her to get her votes. they are the nuts, they are outside of the mainstream of american ideology, but they are the most powerful people in the

republican caucus. >> when you look at the fact that as you stated, all that have been supporters of brittney have said, also, let us fight to get paul whelan, let us remember, let us remind mccarthy and those in the republican party that paul whelan was taken in while trump was president. and trump never called his name, never stood up for him. never said anything. there was one journalist who has done research, can't even find a tweet that donald trump did. so let me get this right. if americans are taken by an enemy of the country, the president of another super power that's our adversary, and you have laryngitis when they're taken, and another president comes in and gets one released and continues to loudly say that he wants the other, you act like

that's un-american? i think the un-americans are the ones that want to see americans be used as political tools and pawns. that's anti-american. and that is un-american. and i think mccarthy has got to decide whether he is going to represent the best interests of america, which is also protecting americans abroad, or whether he's going to kowtow to some elected nuts that has hijacked his party. he would be, if he becomes speaker, third this line to be president. he has more responsibility than to deal with the fact that some people that got elected that clearly are in political no-no land should not have the ability to manipulate who is in third in line for the office of president. maybe he doesn't know the height and depth of the office he seeks. and maybe he ought to instruct them, this is a little deeper

than playing to some super right-wing base. >> i mean, i think tragically, he knows exactly where it stands and doesn't care. i want to, john, just talk to you about some news that's broken since we've been on the air that we talked about at the beginning of the "a" block. a judge decided for reasons that are not completely clear right now not to hold team trump in contempt. let me read the reporting that nbc has at this hour. the source familiar with the matter tells nbc news that judge beryl howell did not grant the doj's request to hold the office of former president trump in contempt of court with alleged noncompliance with the may grand jury subpoena for classified documents. the doj has made no comments. heilemann, this is a first setback. it's not clear to me yet how major it is in what has been a string of doj victories over the last few days and weeks. >> yeah, i would really like to

know more about it, nicole, before offering some kind of judgment -- >> i know, me too. that's all that we've got. >> there may be some narrow technical reason why the judge is ruling in this way. so without knowing the basis for the ruling, it's hard to offer -- i mean, it does seem, again, to laypeople, you and i both laypeople, although we spend a lot of time talking about the law on television, it seems as though the behavior of team trump has exhibited contempt in the common vernacular, but it may very well be that there's some technical reason why the judge has ruled in way. i wish i could be more definitive, but i can't without reading the opinion. >> no, i appreciate your restraint. this is all the information we have. we promised we would -- this was not open to the press, so this is all that has come out so far. i mean, i think one of the things that we know is that the conduct is also under investigation as part of the obstruction of justice investigation, which is part of the criminal probe that's now

been turned over to special counsel jack smith. as we learn more, we will of course bring it to all of our viewers. john heilemann, thank you for having this conversation with us. we are grateful. the rev sticks around a few minutes longer. up next for us, he is a self-proclaimed blow-up man who has spent decades bringing much-needed attention. we'll show it to you next. eeded. we'll show it to you next. ♪ from santa claus, indiana to snowflake, arizona and everywhere in between. we're holiday ready with fast and reliable delivery, serving every address in america. the united states postal service. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.

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so the concern a shooter? >> i mean, it's -- >> do you have a recommendation, chris? >> honestly, we really shouldn't do this. i don't believe it's feasible with the climate, with the reports that we're getting even from the offices of the amount of people that are out there. >> i mean, i think the best thing you can do is let them secure as much as they can. i'm going to do it. i don't, you know -- we get threats all the time. i'm not going to not do the rally. >> the reverend al sharpton, president of the national action network! >> love you so much. >> no justice -- >> no peace! >> no justice -- >> no peace!

>> nothing, nothing, not even death threats deters or makes him blink. of course, our friend and colleague, the reverend al sharpton, that is just a small snippet from the new documentary "loudmouth," the life and battles of activist reverend al sharpton spanning the last 40 years of his life and his work as a crusader for racial justice. we're back with our friend and colleague, the subject of that documentary, the revenue al sharpton. rev, we were talking about you the other day around here. someone was talking about how friends from overseas ask about what it's like to work with the rev. and i think of you as my colleague, one of the first people who is a regular on this show. someone who we call in all manner of breaking news to sit with us, and most importantly, someone who is the first person on the ground, with families in their darkest moments. the work that you do, the work that your friend, ben crump does. and i wonder if it can even be captured in a film like this.

>> well, you know, john legend and quadar massenberg approached me and said they wanted to do the documentary, they had a good director that they'd worked with, josh alexander. and they had archival footage going back to when i was 13 years old, when i first started many this work and they wanted to trace this work, because they wanted to show in many ways, we're still dealing with the same issues, but in some ways, we've made progress. and i've been on the front line through the whole journey. and today it opens in 122 theaters, which is unheard of for a civil rights leader while he's still live and i'm here now. and i think that the documentary, the reason they called it "loud mouth ", is that unlike medicine that proceeded me in civil rights leadership, i did not come out of the south.

i came out of new york. i was born and raised in brooklyn. we had to compete with times square, broadway lights, statue of liberty, radio city, everything is in new york. you had to be loud to make the issues heard. you had to be dramatic welcome but you had to try to keep it where it was nonviolent. we go through those contradictions and those struggles in the documentary and show that, yes, when i started as a teenager, we could not conceive as a black president or a black female vice president. i lived to see that. when i was missing in college, i had never dreamed that i would be in south africa the night he won the election after 27 years in jail so it is hopeful and challenging at the same time, saying we have a long way to go, but look how far we've gotten, even in my lifetime. and they have the archival footage to show exactly what would happen. i did not know what they would do, i had to editorial control, but i'm happy that they were

able to get it so people around the country can see where we have come from and where we need to keep going. >> with that lens of history and that perspective and your years and years in the fight, what do you think is ahead? >> i think that we've got to really be determined to continue the trajectory we've been on and i think that one of the things is that we must get people back in the lane of where we can be civil where we fight and engage in these debates. i will never forget that when we came to the issue of education, i agreed with george bush, who i marched on about hurricane katrina and who i had a lot of differences about with the iraq war. but george bush invited me for his white house. and invited me talking about

education. where has the country gone that we can no longer communicate with each other and say, let's find common ground. if we can get the right and the left to start pulling back and saying, there's some basic things that we all agree on, in terms of human rights and human dignity and public education and economic, trying to bring more economic balance, i think the country will be going well. we must against the fringe elements on both sides that are more interested in noise than trying to make progress. i'm loud, but i don't believe in reckless noise. >> you were also one of the most generous colleagues to all of us, so to see you in this movie and to see this movie, as you said, it's got a massive national theater release. right now, it opened today, right? and in theaters all over the country. it's an honor to have you as a friend and a colleague, rev.

>> thank you. it's an honor to have you as a friend and colleague. >> i'm going to stop before i start to cry. congrats on the film, too. everyone will head out and site. thank you for being here today. after the break today, trevor noah says good-bye to the "daily show" with some really powerful and important advice, telling his audience this, quote. if you truly want to learn about america, talk to black women. that story is next.

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episode of "the daily show" with trevor noah. don't be sad. i know people will be sad. please don't be sad. you should be happy that an african leader is peacefully leaving power. that's never a guarantee. that's never a guarantee. >> "the daily show" host trevor noah saying bye. he ended his remarks on a serious note. take a look. >> i always tell people, if you truly want to learn about america, talk to black women. yeah. because unlike everybody else, black women can't afford to [ bleep ] around to find out. black people understand how hard it is when things go bad. black people know that it gets worse for them, but black women in particular, they know what [

bleep ] is, genuinely. people will be shocked,s why do black women turn out the way they do? why do they vote the way they do? they know what happens. >> joining our conversation is donna edwards. this is a truth that we hold dear on this show, that we honor as the truth of the american political elections and politics, but it was amazing to hear it the way he put it so beautifully and so bluntly last night. >> well, i love that and i think that trevor noah hit on what we talk about. black women have their fingers on the pulse of this nation unlike any other demographic group. i didn't get noah first until my millennial son helped me out.

>> that's amazing. say more, donna. >> when he took over from jon stewart i just didn't even understand his humor, and i have to tell you, my son was like -- he kept sending me clips of "the daily show" with trevor noah and then i really did understand him and i came to -- i grew to like him. if anybody hasn't seen his remarks in the spring at the white house correspond department's dinner, go google it and look at it because he really does speak to politics in a way we can understand. it's plain and simple for all the things we talk about every day. >> donna, these jobs are impossible to imagine anyone else filling, but in a lot of ways to your point, trevor noah made the job bigger.

he mattered. >> it forced those of us who are in politics to pay attention to him because he was speaking to this younger generation and i think sometimes the way that we deal with my generation deals with politics is, you know, completely and opposite to the way that young people see it. and i think it's important for us to understand that. i mean, he speaks to a demographic we need to vote. and to care about us. we're going to miss him but i'm sure "the daily show" is going to find someone we'll fall in love with, too. >> we have the youngest member of congress. we need him to run for office and help run the country, get it going in a better direction. >> donna edwards, you are the perfect person to have this conversation with. thank you for jumping on the air. coming for us, his family business being convicted of tax fraud and a key ally

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you said something to the effect of i don't want people to know we lost, mark. this is embarrassing. figure it out. i don't want people to know that we lost. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. that is the twice impeached ex-president's deepest fear, losing and having people know about the losing and yet as of late, that's pretty much all that's been happening to him. most of his picks for the

mid-term elections were losers at the ballot box. in fact, republican senator mitt romney called trump's endorsement a political kiss of death for candidates. it's not just the political losses that are piling up this week. trump has seen an avalanche of legal defeats as well. let's take a look at what happened just this week. tuesday was a really busy week. trump org was found guilty on tax fraud and they were found guilty on all 17 counts it was charged with. the january 6th select committee announced it will be making criminal referrals to doj and the special counsel subpoenaed local officials essential to trump's efforts to overturn his defeat. on wednesday trump lawyers found two classified documents in a storage site in west palm beach, florida. the search was done after a federal judge pushed trump and yesterday doj asked a federal

judge to hold trump's office in contempt for not complying with that may subpoena. as we reported at the end of the last hour, the judge ultimately did not grant doj's request. the special master review of the documents seized at mar-a-lago, which trump had fought for, was officially brought to an ed, kaput. mike flynn became the latest in a long line to testify before a grand jury in the fulton county, georgia, criminal investigation. the ex-president now facing a reckoning with the rule of law. trump's hope to use the afterglow of the presidency to buy immunity is not yet crushed, but it's not holding up either. the mar-a-lago investigation is unfolding. other legal actions against trump continue. and a new york jury has now convicted trump's company of crimes on the basis of evidence that in some cases literally bore his signature.

since 2015 america has faced a choice, it could have a working rule of law or it could have a trump presidency. not both. after much time and anguish, the trump presidency was repudiated at the polls. now the rule of law has returned. the man who tried to overturn the constitution to save his job as commander in chief and avoid the law now has to meet it as defendant in chief. trump's mounting legal woes. jackie alamanie, an msnbc contributor. joining us former cia director, john brennan is here. joyce vance is back, former u.s. attorney and law professor at the university of alabama. with me at the table, jim walden. i want to start with you, director brennan. i wonder what the assessment is on the health of the united states of america's rule of law?

>> well, nicole, i think the setbacks that donald trump and his organization around him have endured have been richly deserving. it is clear that throughout his lifetime donald trump has used every legal tactic and trick to try to avoid accountability and finally i think the legal system is catching up with him and i think he has sort of run out his string of good luck in terms of what he's been able to avoid. but i do think what is happening now on multiple fronts just clearly demonstrates that donald trump has not adhered to the rule of law whether it's in his business life or the political war. the signal that's being sent not just to trump but the broader constellation of interest, is that the rule of law is prevailing and sometimes it takes time, as they say, but the wheels of justice do grind on. >> joyce, to director brennan's

point, they grind so slowly. they move so much more slowly than certainly the news cycles and of our politics. let me show you something that the ex-president's niece mary trump said on the air with my colleague joy reid. >> the narrative after the mid-terms is he's "the biggest loser." my response to that is in what way? he's a freeman. he's still raking in tens of millions of dollars from the people he's grifting off of. he's still at the top of the republican party. there are no consequences. there continue no consequences. i think it's a mistake to think that we've past the point of no return for him. >> to mary trump's astute observation, the wheels are grinding but he has not yet been held to account. what is your degree of confidence that he will be, joyce? >> increasingly i'm very confident, nicole, because i think particularly in the mar-a-lago matter he's engaged

in conduct that's so clearly criminal that doj will reach a point, now the special counsel, where he'll have to be held accountable. the point that mary's making is a really good one. it applies i think with particular force for people who have never had the experience that director brennan and i have had, of working inside of government, inside of the parts of government that stand for the rule of law. it does look painstakingly slow on the outside, but in part that's because we have a system that's committed to protecting people's rights. and trump was a real anomaly. he was someone who entered the highest office in our country with no respect for that rule of law. that's something i think our system as it developed didn't fully anticipate, but now we're seeing that although at length there will be accountability for trump, it's difficult and painful to watch the length of

time that takes, my hope is we will emerge a stronger company. we will have to adopt new rules with the trump experience in mind but people's confidence will be restored when they see he's held accountable. trump held himself out as a successful businessman for so many years even though he wasn't. it was all a lie. he's also held himself out as someone that the legal system, especially the criminal justice system can't touch, that, too, is a lie, it's a myth and it's about to be exploded. >> one can hope. jim, i want to sort of drill down on one of the things joyce mentioned, this mar-a-lago investigation. and i think one of the things that has happened is that people who are not lawyers think they can talk like them and think people like myself, right, we can explain a special technical counsel reg, we can explain probable cause, we can discuss the intersection of an obstruction of justice, it's

absolutely deadly, but i think one of the reasons is what joyce has just explained. because he has run against the criminal justice system and seemed to have skated through it without ever having been held to account, we have this understanding how it would appear he was able to manipulate his office and the power of the presidency to evade scrutiny. let me go through what i understand to be the markers that have been hit in the mar-a-lago case and ask you where you think it stands. in january the national archives retrieved 15 boxes of documents from mar-a-lago. they had 184 classified documents in them, 25 top top secret. national archives asked doj to investigate. may 11th doj subpoenaed trump. june 3rd he hands over 38 classified documents in a, quote, diligent search for all documents that are responsive. something happens at doj and they decide that's not the

truth. they have other evidence that belies that attestation. on august 8th they approve the search warrant and 108 more are seized. just deery is appointed as a special master. on november 18th attorney general garland appoints jack smith. on december 1st the trufrm request for a special master is overturned and on december 7th more classified documents are found at the trump storage site. would you see why the public would feel this is not doing anything. there's more classified information in his boxes. >> i do but i've never seen a criminal investigation with so many wins up front and the evidence is there. the mar-a-lago case, the evidence is pretty compelling on the mishandling of classified information. there's a lot we don't know about the obstruction case, but i think people have to be

patient. mar-a-lago is really not the tail that's going to wag this dog. to bring a case against the former president is going to be tough. >> why? >> i think they're going to accept the narrative, all presidents may take some things they shouldn't take and that shouldn't be the basis for an indictment, whether it's intended or not, what's happening in mar-a-lago is that the public's being tested in a sense and warmed up to the notion of a larger indictment of trump. first they use subpoenas, then search warrant, then they move for contempt. i think that as more and more things happen to donald trump in the criminal area, more and more people are accepting the notion that maybe he should be indicted or maybe we should move on to another candidate. so i think that there's something happening in mar-a-lago that's going to make some members of the public that are reluctant to an indictment more accepting of an indictment down the road. it's kind of like turning the titanic. it doesn't happen all at once. it happens in small stages.

>> you know, gentleman beingy, that's an interesting -- eric holder was on our show i think before the public hearings had started for the january 6th select committee. he made a similar point. one will be socializing the idea of a very recent ex-president committing crimes among the public and that it could serve to not soften the earth but socialize these ideas and the evidence of criminality from an ex-president, which is so jarring and so shocking and which until this point, to mary e. trump's point, trump has used to his advantage. i couldn't have committed crimes. it's a witch hunt. tragically, about 35 to 40% of the country just accepts that. just talk about the body of public work that the select committee go to reveal to the country with some help from the federal justice system the likelihood that trump committed felonies.

>> there is so many examples running through my head in terms of all that we have learned and been through from this past year from the classified documents case to the january 6th committee. when you think of the work the january 6th committee showed, it's really only skimming the surface. i wrapped up a bunch of source meetings today, and the amount that we don't know and are about to learn a the the end of this month is truly -- shocking is not the right word. there's a lot we haven't learned already. it might not be as ground breaking as a lot of the revelations we saw from people like cassidy hutchinson, maloney that had that shock value, people who were close with the former president, worked with him, were his allies, some of the most trusted people in the white house who saw all of these things happening, all of the efforts to overturn the results of the election and the chaos

that was going firsthand and then communicate that to these lawyers that were conducting these depositions or live to the american public via national television. important information that is going to puv the public further in the direction further into feeling this former president may have conducted and engaged in some criminal activity. again, we've said this a million times. i feel like now you've practically read his entire brief on television but judge david carter has said it himself. you don't need me, a journalist to say it, but it is very likely that former president trump and john eastman engaged in criminal activity to defraud the american people and obstruct congress. i think that all of the information that we've seen and everything that is yet to come out and is coming down the pipeline, even what we'll see in

the next few months of the new year from the department of justice and the special counsel be is going to be revelatory. >> jackie, you say source and our ears prick up. i'm going to probe here. liz cheney first read from the criminal code i believe in either december or january of last year, so about a year ago. she made clear that it was part of her mission to lay out evidence of federal crimes committed by donald trump, and she's liz cheney so she puts her -- you know, she doesn't put up without producing. she has said more recently that if he's not charged that is evidence that the rule of law doesn't exist and doesn't apply to the most powerful people. what is your sense of her influence on sort of the aggressive may tur the committee will make in sending over criminal referrals? >> there's no one who's had more

influence than liz cheney. that is a fact. we've all seen it publicly in the public hearings. she is the one who has largely dominated those presentations and sessions. she's driven the investigation at every step of the way. i think that most people would agree that her membership has been ultimately extremely positive and there's no one else that's been in the weeds like she has. there are some people who also feel like her obsessiveness and desire to control and micromanage every single aspect has also been to the detriment of having a more sweeping, comprehensive look at some of the institutional failures. there are lots of pros and cons here. i can go back and forth on the two sides fehr all of these conversations that have especially i think been percolating as we're getting closer to reading the report and

we're hearing there is still dissent for the actual contents and what's going to make it in and what it's going to focus on, a concern that the institutional failures are not going to make it in and that it will be to narrowly focus on the former president and the crimes that the committee is going to allege that he committed. but at the end of the day, i do think, again, unanimously people on the committee, every single person involved can agree that liz cheney turned this into an historic committee that's going to reveal an historic piece of work and without her leadership, it probably wouldn't have had as much of an impact as we've seen. >> you know, director brennan, she has been a sort of human alarm for the country about the threats to democracy, but she is late to the game. i mean, before liz cheney there was jim comey talking about a

dinner where trump asked to see to it to let mike flynn go. before that there were other national security officials talking about what trump had done either whitingly or unwhitingly, folks like yourself. what do you make of the through line in terms of donald trump as a threat to american democracy, america's standing in the world and national security? >> i think over time it's become more and more obvious to more and more people that donald trump does show a threat to national security. his actions that have evolved over the last several years including his instigation of a coup against our country. i think it is just shown people just how debased he is as far as any type of respect for the rule of law. the and i'm so, so glad and confident he is going to face a reckoning here because we have an attorney general and a

department of justice that doesn't bend to political whims and they're going to pursue this and call it very straight. therefore, as was mentioned before, there's a compelling amount of information that's accumulated and it's pointed to donald trump's violations of criminal statutes as well as just respect for the rule of law that i think we expect first and foremost from anybody who is going to be the president of the united states. >> so we made a little list. we haven't gotten to any of these, the georgia criminal investigations, the tax investigations, the tisch james investigation, jack smith who has inherited now and taken over the twin criminal probes into the mar-a-lago documents and members of the trump orbit who were not present at the u.s. capitol. we're going to try to dig into all of those when we come back. no one is going anywhere. we'll also talk about how

specifically the district attorney's probe is getting closer and closer inside the president's disgraced circle. there's new testimony on that. plus, another side of the prisoner exchange that led to freedom for basketball superstar brittney griner. the question many russia experts are trying to figure out today, why did moscow want convicted arms deal jerel viktor bout back in russia so badly? "deadline white house" is back after a break. don't go anywhere this friday. a must in your medicine cabinet!

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do you believe the violence on january 6th was justified

morally? >> i take the 5th. >> do you believe the violence on january 6th was justified legally? >> fifth. >> general flynn, do you believe in a peaceful transition of power in the united states of america? >> the fifth. >> it was one of the more shocking lines of questions and answers that the january 6th select committee presented. that was trump's former national security adviser mike flynn. yesterday mike flynn testified before the grand jury, the fulton county georgia investigation. while we do not know what he said, we can all hope it was a little more than the fifth over and over, but what we do know, the washington post reports this. he arrived at 1 p.m. and exited an hour later. flynn's appearance came after a florida appeals court this week

rejected his latest effort to quash a summons from prosecutors in fulton county, georgia,s who have called him a necessary and material witness in the grand jury investigation into alleged election interference by trump and his allies. we're back with our panel. jim, if he's not answering the question, do you believe in the peaceful transfer of power because doing so could incriminate him, what is he answering? >> i bet he's answering nothing at all. i've seen that clip 15 times and it's still dizzying to me. the national security adviser who was a general in our military who says that he believes in america can't answer a question about peaceful transition of power. and, i mean, i cannot wait to read the report, but we hear donald trump's name so much, it's michael flynn. it is roger stone and it's steve bannon. like those are the three people that could connect the oath keepers and the proud boys to

donald trump. in my view, sooner or later one of the three is going to break because i don't think any of those three, if they get indicted, is going to spend the rest of their life in jail. so i look forward to that day and i hope that there is a time when one of those three or all of those three are actually telling the american people what happened on january 6th because we still don't know how the link exists although we know the link does exist. >> joyce, all three of them are recipients of pardons. mike flip had confessed his crimes in court twice and then switched counsel. sidney powell became his lawyer and he unconfessed and ultimately bill barr gets involved in the sentencing phase repelling lifetime prosecutors from the case and one from the department and mike flynn stumbles into a pardon. what is the mike flynn part of the story here in your view,

joyce? >> you know, hope has to spring eternal if you're mike flynn that you can outrun the legal system because he's had awfully good luck so far, to the point of him taking the fifth amendment when he's asked about the peaceful transfer of power. there are at least two known incidents that tell us why he might have to give that answer. one is a tv appearance where he's asked whether or not he believes things can proceed and there will be a biden administration and he talks about trump's ability to use the military to avoid the peaceful transfer of power. and then he's in a meeting in the white house about three weeks after he's pardoned where he's talking with sidney powell and others about this executive order that would have authorized trump to again use the military to avoid the transfer of power. so it's not real tough to believe that he would need to take the fifth amendment. and of course this hour that he spends in the courthouse in

georgia, that's barely enough time to clear security, get a little bit of southern hospitality and a cup of coffee and take the fifth amendment enough times that prosecutors know they're not going to get any meaningful testimony out of you. so to your point, nicole, i don't think that flynn, if one of these three is going to break, i don't think it will be flynn, at least not right now. whether or not faunty willis decides he's a target of her investigation, not just a witness, he she can have some bearing on that. she seems to be further down the road than the special counsel is at this point. we don't know if she'll be the first one to indict or not. >> jackie, what do we know about the committee's interest in flynn, bannon, and stone and their ties? i think they were being protected by members of the right wing militia groups. many of those members have come under criminal investigation and

prosecution for things up to and as serious as seditious conspiracy. how much time do we believe the committee has spent pursuing those connections? >> yeah. i actually think that the committee has spent more time than they have publicly signaled. there is the purple team, which there are five teams, you're well aware of these teams, the green, the purple, the gold, the red, the yellow and the purple team was tasked with looking at the militia groups extremism, how americans become radicalized and interconnectedness. there was some overlap between the team that was also examining trump and his allies and whether or not there were direct links there and that is where i think a lot of people felt like there might be a smoking gun. was an oath keeper or a proud boy on the phone with the former president at any point in the weeks leading up to the insurrection or on that day.

that has not panned out, but the links that we have seen have been pretty explicit in terms of people like enrique tardio and stewart rhodes being in touch with some people who were in trump's inner circle. people who were in the west wing meeting with the president in the weeks prior to january 6th and people who were in close touch with him like roger stone, michael flynn. i think that this is, again, back to sort of some of the tensions that are going on right now in the committee, there are current and former staffers that are worried that not all of those connections and the deeper sort of more academic explanation of how america got here and why people have felt so compelled to engage in these hate groups and become -- travel down this path towards radicalization that ultimately

led them to this point might not ultimately be included in the final report. >> director brennan, we've touched on i think almost all of the probes that we know about that seem to be reaching some sort of milestone at the end of the year here. the georgia criminal investigation, the tax convictions, the ongoing probes into his businesses, the select committee's final act, the mar-a-lago probe, but the one thing that is maybe the most opaque to the public is special counsel jack smith's mission given by attorney general merrick garland to pursue and investigate potential crimes committed by people who were not at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. what, as someone who's operated at the highest levels of the government, do you think that entails? >> well, certainly by all indications jack smith is the ideal person to look into this in a very in depth as well as fair manner. for those of us who have served in the government, i think we feel that it really is incumbent

on the system in order to hold the most senior officials in this government accountable if they have violated the law. if they have abused their oath of authority or abused the trust the american people has put in them. therefore, i think it's pretty important we find out exactly the extent to which individuals at the white house and other areas are responsible for the travesty that took place on january 6th. and i do think that again as we've talked before, this process is taking quite a while, but i'm hoping that with jack smith's appointment that we're going to come to a better understanding of who was responsible. i think by my accounts the person in the white house at the time was an instigator of this. i think we want to make sure the rule of law is able to prevail here so the american people know what happened and we can take steps to prevent recurrence.

>> to trump proof the country. jackie, joyce, jim, thank you all for starting us off. john brennan sticks around. with brittney griner back in the united states, vladimir putin said he's open to more prisoner exchanges for more detained people. there are concerns why moscow wanted a convicted arms dealer returned to washington right now. we'll tell you about it after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i promise to bring you advice that fits your values. i promise our relationship will be one of trust and transparency. as a fiduciary, i promise to put your interests first, always. charles schwab is proud to support the independent financial advisors who are passionately dedicated to helping people achieve their financial goals. visit findyourindependentadvisor.com i love all types of dancing...

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as brittney griner has now arrived safely back in the united states and is with her family, we are now learning more about the man who was swapped for the wnba superstar. russian tarms dealer viktor bout. bout is nicknamed the merchant of death. he was selling weapons and firearms to colombian rebels intended to kill americans. russia has been search being for any way to bring him home. the big question now is why. according to reporting in the washington post, though russia complained that bout was entrapped by the dea, many u.s. officials and analysts say moscow's anger was not angry about the case but his links to the russian military.

they led early efforts to tackle bout's network. joining our efforts, michael mcfall and john brennan is here. investigator mcfall, your reaction to brittney griner's release? then we'll tackle viktor bout. >> well, i'm thrilled that she's home. it's a great victory for american diplomacy. of course, i would have liked a different deal. i would have liked the deal of three innocent americans for this one true criminal. i've done diplomacy with the russians. you get to an end where you know they're not going to give anymore, then you have to decide. it's a close call but i agree. >> why do we think russia wanted him back?

>> john brennan knows a lot about viktor bout. most of it he's not going to tell you. he's abad guy. look at his wikipedia page. look where he studied, translator working in africa during the soviet times providing arms. one would not be surprised somebody with that background would have deep ties with russian military intelligence and not just them. that is the profile typically of those kinds of people and when i was in the government, they asked for viktor bout's release virtually every single meeting if i recall, especially foreign minister lavrov. when meeting with secretary clinton or secretary kerry, at the end of every meeting an ask for him was part of the to do list that they wanted. they've been focused on trying to get him home for a long, long time. >> john brennan, what can you tell us about why the russians may have wanted viktor bout back

so badly right now? >> nicole, for many years there has been a very large worldwide black market involved in the trafficking of illegal weapons. until his arrest in thailand in 2008, he was one of the most successful, prolific arms merchants worldwide. he did a lot of it in concert with russian intelligence. when he was detained i think russia was very concerned not only that they lost an asset but also that they needed to try to get him back into the fold. as ambassador mcfaul mentioned, he has been a topic. although viktor bout has been taken off of the operational playing field for the last 15 years, i'm sure he still maintains a lot of the contacts and expertise and know how about how these weapons from small arms, rifles and other battlefield weapons, up to missiles and tanks, how it

operates. so i think that they're probably hoping to be able to leverage his experience and his expertise in order to try to acquire additional weapons. i'm so glad after 15 years we have been able to ensure his activities were suspended for an extended period of time. like others, i think we're all celebrating the fact that brittney griner has been able to come home. i am confident there were extensive discussions among the national security principals about the pros and cons of exchanging viktor bout. they're going to make sure they're focused on the worldwide black arms market that the russians play such an important role in. >> every conversation about brittney griner has included pleas for the returns of paul way lan.

i wanted to read something that his brother tweeted today. quote, former president trump appears to have mentioned my brother, paul when he lan's wrongful detention more in the last 24 hours than he did in the two years of presidency in which paul was held hostage by russia. zero times. i don't suggest he cares now any more than he did then, which was zero. the playing of politics with these swaps does represent a new marker. i'm sure it existed, but not to the point where the return of an american like brittney griner was immediately attacked by some on the right to the point where the brother of a wrongfully detained american has to speak out with this effort to swat down misinformation and disinformation from not just a fringe -- not just a fringe character but america's last

president. what do we do with that, john brennan? >> i don't know. like you said, this should be a moment for bipartisan celebration to be able to brianne american home and unfortunately -- i will say it seems that the republican party more and more uses national security matters, national security issues as a political football they can pass around. it sends a signal worldwide that we are divided internally here, that we cannot get our house together to deal with the critically important national security issues. i am pleased the people who recognized that national security really needs to be bipartisan are speaking up and out in a positive way. we need to make sure we maintain the pressure on russia and try to get paul whelan and others back but at the same time i think it's important for us to recognize when the administration, whether it be a

democratic or republican administration does good, we need to be able to acknowledge that. the. >> i think it's clear that this administration has done good this week certainly in the eyes of brittney griner's family and fans and friends. i want to ask you, ambassador mcfaul, if this gives you hope, if this is a good sign for the fate of mr. whelan and be mr. foghle? >> it's hard to say, but there is some momentum here. mr. putin said a few things about it today that was encouraging. i don't know what kinds of trades could be done, but the fact that we could finally do some business here and realize it will not bleed over one inch into cooperation on other matters like ukraine, we need to be very level headed about that. but i'm cautiously optimistic that there might be other ways to get these people out of jail. you know, i am confident that the biden administration, people i've talked to, are focused

exactly on that task ahead. >> is one of -- i guess both of your jobs have many aspects of them that were very opaque, but it's my understanding that these negotiations are perhaps the most secretive and opaque of all. i have a couple more questions for you about what that looks like behind the scenes. stay with us. we have to fit in a quick break. we'll follow up with that as well as some particularly heinous comments from vladimir putin about the war in ukraine we want to tell you about. don't go anywhere. you are down to your last life. oh no. the legend tells of a wishing star. that star will get me my lives back. the wishing star is in the dark forest. 1, 2, after you. wait, what? dog, still alive? let's go find out.

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we're back with michael mcfaul and john brennan. i want to get on the record that even for vladimir putin are striking and inhumane. that's saying a lot. quote, the settlement process as a whole, yes, it will probably be difficult and will take some time but one way or another all participants in this process will have to agree with the realities that are taking shape on the ground, the russian president said during remarks at a press conference in kyrgestan. drinking what appeared to be sparkling wine putin vowed to keep battering ukraine's energy grid despite an outcry against the systematic attacks that have plunged millions into cold and darkness as winter sets in. john, the profile of putin has

been, you know, we have all become students in it thanks to the insights from folks like both of you but it is still shocking to hear the delight he takes in the specific targeting and terrorizing the population in ukraine. are there more levers that can be applied to him to specifically sort of sanction that conduct? >> well, it's clear that putin for many, many years has been a ruthless character. i think the extent of his evilness in terms of the human carnage that he has been responsible for, personally responsible for in ukraine i think is just astounding. and so i think that the international sanctions on him possible to send a clear signal that this is wholly, wholly unacceptable. in terms of additional pressures, i think unfortunately

he's more susceptible to the right-wing in russia to those who are opposed to the war. i do think we need to keep as much pressure on other countries and clearly we've had a united nato which is great. but i think we have to be reaching out to india and put additional pressure on those countries that are still willing to turn a blind eye to what's going on and whether or not -- including in the middle east. saudis and others who are willing to continue to do things and transact business with vladimir putin, i think what the united states can do is to take that global leadership role and try to marshall even greater support and pressure on putin until this very, very costly, ugly war comes to an end. >> ambassador, the isolation that putin seems to be experiencing was put into place

when the military campaign started. the campaign is targeting civilians designed to frankly freeze people to death over the winter. what is the appropriate sanction and further isolation for that? >> you raised an important point, remember the russians have lost almost 50% of the territory that they originally took and so they're losing on the battlefield and that's why he's resorting to terrorism. people need to be crystal clear about that. if he could be winning on the battlefield, he would. he can't. and that's why he's attacking the infrastructure. and i talk to ukrainians every day. i talked to one two hours ago. people need to understand how difficult it is to live without heating, without electricity. my colleague got stuck on an elevator for two hours and he apologized to be late for our zoom call. that's how they're living every single day. and therefore, we have to ratchet up the pressure just

like john said. putin is ratcheting up the pressure so we have to ratchet up sanctions. one step we could do is designate russia a state sponsor of terrorism. these are terrorist acts that you're showing right now. designate that, and that would have profound consequences in tightening up the sanctions. second, the banking sanctions are leaky right. lots we could do to shore that up. third as john said, the secondary sanctions, those that are evading them, they have to have consequences for that as well. there's a long menu of what we can do. we're just not doing them. and now is the time to do it. >> i worry it's going to take more human suffering and the images of more suffering among ukrainian citizens to get us there when we know exactly from folks like yourselves what is around the corner for the ukrainian people. thank you so much for spending time with us and sharing your expertise. we are grateful. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. 'll be righ.

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while praying for the people of ukraine. the pope has mentioned ukraine and its people in nearly every single one of his public appearances since the war begin. and just on wednesday, the pope compared russia's war to the holocaust saying this, quote, history repeats itself. look at what's happening now in ukraine. talking to reporters after his prayer, he said that the war is an enormous suffering, a defeat for humanity. indeed it is. we will be right back. let's be honest. the rent-a-car industry is the definition of boring. and the reason can be found in the name itself. rent - a - car? you don't want a friend. you want the friend. you don't want a job. you want the job. the is always over a. that's why we don't offer a car. we offer the car. ( ♪♪ ) sixt. rent the car. once upon a time, at the magical everly estate, landscaper larry and his trusty crew...

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