florida a little bit, what is your understanding of why it was such a strong here for democrats in your home state? >> well, some of the same dynamics we saw on the battleground states that was intimately involved with the dscc. there was a clear contrast between our statewide candidates, and the people of the republicans, that they put forward, we saw that in the state legislative races. but there is no question, the abortion issue played a part, we had an amendment on the ballot, and i just want to give you something that is absolutely inspiring to me. we had students that stood in line, after the polls close, the last didn't did not vote until two a.m.. and they were there. >> all right, senator gary peters from michigan, thank you very much, have a great weekend. >> thank you. >> that is all in for this week, alex wagner tonight starts right now, good evening alex. >> good evening, chris. you, know i would love to know of gary peters heart was in his throat the way that it was from

any democrats who woke up to the cinema headline this morning. >> you know, he did a very good job of being very diplomatic in his answer. but one can imagine the general feeling around members of that caucus this morning when they saw this. >> thank, you my friend, have a great weekend. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. this was how she announced her decision tonight. >> we make decisions about what is best for ourselves, our family, and our community. so we do not spend a lot of time thinking about, is this a republican idea, or is this a democratic idea? is this liberal, or is this conservative? that is not how arizonans think. registering as an independent and showing up to work with the title of independent is a reflection of who i have always been. and it is a reflection of who arizona is. >> senator kyrsten sinema announced today that she would leave the democratic party to

become an independent and said that she is doing so because that is what arizona voters want. the senator a lab rated on her decision in an op-ed for az central.com, quote, pressures and both parties to pull leaders to the edges, allowing the loudest, most extreme voices to determine their respective parties priorities. and catering to the fringes, neither party has demonstrated much tolerance for diversity of thought, americans are told that we only have two choices -- democrat or republican -- and that we must subscribe wholesale the policy views the parties hold. because that have been pulled farther and farther towards the extremes. most arizonans believe that this is a false twist. anyone who is not just waking up from a 12-year coma knows that what the senator is engaging in here is false equivalency. a study this year by the research center found that since 1972, the republican party has become more than four times more polarized than the democratic party in the senate,

and more than three times more polarized in the house. we are way past the point where any reasonable person can look at a gop that is giving into anti-democratic right wing demagoguery, and the democratic party where some people want everyone to have free health care, and declare that extremism has captured both sides. but set that aside for a second, because senator sinema is not just wrong about americas, she is wrong about arizona. the biggest political earthquake of the last three elections has been a shift that we have watched in georgia and arizona. both states have gone from republican strongholds dissipates where democrats can win statewide. and that shift was not driven by a radical rise in moderate swing voters. both georgia and arizona have seen rapid growth in their urban populations, alongside a steady decline in the rural population. the atlanta area is now one of the fastest-growing metro areas in the u.s., driven in part by a diverse influx of residents

who have recently helped turn atlanta into a majority nonwhite city. at the same time, rural parts of georgia like julie county have lost as much as a quarter of their population. phoenix, arizona, recently surpassed philadelphia to become the nation's fifth largest city, while coaches county, home of some of the hardened built election deniers was one of the few places in arizona that lost residents over the past decade. those shifts have moved the political center of gravity away from largely white, rural, conservative areas toward multiethnic, democratic leaning cities and suburbs. organizers in those places spent years building power, to mobilize those democratically -leaning urban constituencies to vote in big enough numbers where they can overcome rural conservative majority. in other words,, including arizona is not moving away from both parties, it is moving

towards democrats. and the evidence is right there in the last election. just this week, senator raphael warnock won his second senate election in two years, running as a party line democrat in georgia. senator mark kelly also won his second senate election in two years, also running on his record as a ranking filed democrat in the senate. democrats in arizona won statewide races for senate, for governor, for secretary of state, all in one year that should have favored republicans in a very recently red state. but senator sinema has somehow decided that the lesson of all of that, the lesson of that election is that arizona voters do not want to vote for someone associated with the democratic party. now, it is worth pointing out that what senator sinema is doing no will not change the balance of power in washington. she says she won't caucus with republicans, which means democrats will retain their outright majority, keeping their power over senate committees, and the senate floor. but what senator sinema is doing here will change the

balance of power in arizona's next senate election, and that is really what is important here. that is what this is all about. for context, it is worth understanding just how unpopular kristen sinema is with democratic voters in our state. a poll taken the last january, just as sinema and manchin were throwing a wrench in president biden's agenda found that only 19% of democratic voters in arizona approved of the job senator sinema was doing. in contrast, senator mark kelly had an 83% approval rating among those same arizona democrats. president biden was at 80%. that same poll found senator sinema would lose a hypothetical primary race to arizona democratic congressman ruben gallego by a whopping, staggering, 58 points. 58! senator sinema is likely more unpopular with voters in her own party than any democratic senator has been in decades. and that is the real reason

senator sinema left the democratic party today. by changing her affiliation to an, sinema is ensuring that she will not have to face primary challengers, and that any arizona democrat who wants to challenge her will have to do so in a three-way race that could risk splitting the democratic vote, and having that race to a republican. for the past two years, democrats and the biden administration have watched their agenda stymied by moderates like senator sinema and manchin. now, one of those senators is ensuring that one of the seats key to any democratic majority in the senate will remain in the hands of a moderate obstructionist. someone who will oppose any of the changes necessary to ensure things like voting rights, and abortion access. so what do progressives, and arizona democrats, what do they do now? joining us now is congresswoman camilla jayapal, democrat from the state of washington, recently reelected chair of the congressional progressive caucus, and newly appointed

member of the democratic steering and policy committee. congresswoman jayapal, thank you for being here tonight, congratulations on the reelection to the important committees in that caucus. can i just get your first reaction, what was your morning like when you woke up to the headlines about senator sinema? >> well alex, let me just say that i am going to trust what she says, what everyone says, that this is not going to fundamentally shift the balance of power in the senate. that we all have worked so hard to deliver, so that we can deliver real results to working people. and i am really glad that you focused on the shift in arizona because in 2010, i was sleeping on a church basement protesting arizona's horrific anti immigrant law. and at the time, even people in the democratic party, i was an activist at the time, even

people in the democratic party was saying that immigrants would never turn out to vote for us, so opposing this in the way that you might want us to, and it was grassroots organizations, including some of us from outside of the state that really helped to build over a decade, a different kind of electoral majority. and that is what you see, stacey abrams vote, black lives matter, that did the same thing over the course of a decade to say that the real possibility here is expanding the electorate, getting young people excited. so, i think that in arizona, this is going to be a difficult election if it is a three-way race. but i really think that i have a lot of faith and the voters of arizona to understand who is going to vote, who is going to work for them, and we will see what the next two years bring. >> it feels like it is a dare almost from sinema. i know that you may not like me, i know that i may not be a

democrat, i am an independent, but i am someone who could win it for you in theory. i guessed that you can sort of parts that. do you think that urban gaye could run? he is a person who could vanquish earn a primary. but it is unclear what happened. >> well, i am just focused on how do we get the most work done over the next two years because we need that going into 2024 to get voting rights done, to get abortion rights codified, to get universal child care passed. we need to have 52 votes in the senate. ideally more, and we have a shot at doing that. so that is what i think we need to focus on. i don't know who is going to run, i don't know if reuben is going to run, or someone else is going to run, i really don't. but what i do know is that our work now as progressives is to continue to show that progressive policies across the country are winning, they have

actually become kind of establishment democratic policies for the most part, and in most places. remember, alex, 99% of the democratic party in congress, and 100 percent, a lot of people across the country, maybe not 100 percent, were supporting all of the policies that we didn't get done. that is what we need to focus on and i have been talking with the white house about how we can be helpful to the white house, in really moving bold progressive executive action. and of course, with our incredible, almost 50% of the democratic caucus democratic members who have come in. >> i guess, when you talk about progressive values, sinema announced her choice to be an independent by a asserting equivalence between the radicalization of the republican party, and the movement of the democratic party towards the left. what is your response to that? >> well, i really disagree with that. look, she is right that we do not have a multi party system. that is true.

we only have, really, for all intensive purposes to parties. we are not like germany, we are not like other countries in europe that have many parties. i wish we did have a multi party system, but we don't. this is the system we have. given the system we have, we have to recognize that we need to take not only the independents, the moderates, the swing voters, fewer and fewer of them by the way, but we also have to mobilize our base. we have to make sure that we are being respectful to our base who does not want crazy things. you are absolutely right to point out the false equivalency's. this republican party wants to destroy our constitution. and lies about our elections, and does not believe that president biden is illegitimate president. the left, progressives, are pushing for universal health care, for universal child care, for investments and housing that make peoples lives better. and as somebody in germany said to me when i was visiting there

a few months earlier, they said you know, your left and bernie sanders would be considered moderate here, because we have all of those things. lashes be clear about that. i would appreciate you pointing out the ridiculousness of false equivalency's. >> what about the increasing rural and urban divide? the fact is that democrats are able to win some of these races because of such's port in urban senators which are increasingly growing. but when you become a party that is largely centered in urban parts of the country, it is a problem when every state, including ones in the center of the country that are not large urban centers have, you know, they send to senators to the upper chamber. is that a problem for democrats in the long term? >> i do think that we have to really have, and i have been talking about it this way, every person matters, every place matters approach to things. because i do not think that in rural areas, our ideas are unpopular. i think that we have to fight the conservative right that is

trying to make it seem like, you know, neo-liberal economics works, when it doesn't. i think that you go into most parts of the country, and people want a 15 dollar minimum wage, the people who are out of touch are the republican senators who do not want to move that forward. and similarly, with universal health care, with so many of the things that we talk about, but we do have to go and listen, and we do have to go and make sure that everybody understands. we are open to everybody being -- everyone who really wants to move the country forward, we want to be the party, we are the party, democrats are the party of freedom, family, and faith. we believe in freedom, the right to vote, freedom to make decisions about our own bodies, we believe in keeping families together, and supporting families, and we believe in faith in our constitution. and in our democracy. so, i think that that is what we need to go up, we need to speak to everybody across the country about. >> just a side note, one person who is also against a 15 dollar

minimum wage, senator kristen sinema. giving it a thumbs down. that is what i am saying. congresswoman camilla jayapal it from the state of washington, great to see you, thanks for your time this red evening. >> thank, you alex, great to be with you. >> we have much more to come tonight, while britney griner spends her first day back on u.s. soil, new reports of russians demand in order to send home another american prisoner. but first, a rare good day for team trump in a federal courtroom over the mar-a-lago case is actually a sign that the justice department is taking the gloves off. that is next. f. that is next research shows people remember commercials with nostalgia. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's one that'll really take you back. it's customized home insurance from liberty mutual!!! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ever leave your clothes in the dryer and find a wrinkled mess? try downy wrinkle guard fabric softener!

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former president trump managed to delay the justice department from using the evidence they gathered during their search of mar-a-lago back in august. not only did trump manage to shift much of the focus away from his own actual alleged crimes and towards weedy legal manager, he managed to throw the criminal investigation for three and a half months. but now, as of yesterday, a federal appeals court in atlanta has officially brought an end to that whole thing. put another way, for 108 days, the department of justice did

not know what evidence it would actually be able to use in court, because of the whole special master. without knowing exactly what evidence was at its disposal it was unlikely the doj would be able to put together a complete case, let alone indict. but now that is all over, and done with, and the justice department can finally get down to business. and what happened in court today, if it is any indication, it looks like the doj is coming out swinging. today, the justice department went to court to try to have the office of the former president held in contempt of court. contempt for failing to obey a subpoena from may before the fbi searched mar-a-lago, one that ordered trump's office to turn over all of the classified documents in its possession. now, no media was allowed in court today, nbc was part of a press coalition that petitioned the judge for access to the hearing, but that was not granted. and nbc news reports that the judge today did not hold trump's office in contempt. but the mere fact that the

justice department tried something this aggressive in the first place is notable. that aggressive stance could be for any number of reasons. but one potential reason is the fact that the custody of the mar-a-lago case has been transferred to the newly appointed special counsel, jack smith. this is from the new york times today. some lawyers who have worked with mr. smith's team said that they were told that the justice department would no longer pulled punches in seeking to enforce court orders or subpoenas. this is no longer the special master circus, the clowns may go home. the doj is no longer pulling punches. joining us now is california congressman, eric swalwell. he says on both the judiciary and intelligence committee is. congressman, thank you for being here tonight. i wonder if you have read the analysis of what happened today in court. that the mere fact that the doj was trying to get this contempt of court conviction ruling, it is evidence of a

newly-emboldened justice department. did you see it that way? >> i do, alex. it is nice to finally see a party in court on his side of the field. he will just grind you down with frivolous motion after frivolous motion, and delay, delay, delay. that is what he does. it is clear that this team is not doing that. as a former prosecutor, i also see this effort to hold him in contempt as a win-win. you can have the court leave it in contempt and get the documents back, or the fact that he will not turn over the documents and won't even do it with a threat of a contempt order just goes to his intent, and the fact that this is not a mistake that these documents landed at mar-a-lago. this is what he intended. and it also, by, the way shows that they really want to get these documents back, and every second that they are at this beach house in the possession

of donald trump is a risk to our national security. >> so actually, that gets to my next question, which is is this the doj's play to actually get the documents back? or do you think that this could be a perjury trap. >> well, again, they put him in a position where they either have to assert that the documents are not there, and if they are than he is in a whole other world of trouble. but if he is not willing to assert anything at all, well, that is because the documents are there. and they are circling the target and i think that they know that they have the goods on the sky. but i would also like to point out, alex, that these are sensitive documents that likely include what is called human source information, where people have risked their lives and livelihood to help the u.s. government to protect ourselves from terrorist attacks, to protect us from another country 's military, or nuclear weapon capabilities. and they are in the hands of someone who has already proven himself willing to leverage

military aid to get the ukrainians to put dirt on joe biden. so, who knows what donald trump would do with these documents to save his own skin? >> you think there was any utility in terms of trump's legal defense team, in terms of the special master's process? did they get anything out of that beyond the delay, and was that in and of itself enough? >> well, alex, they destroyed the credibility and career of one of his own appointees, in judge cannon. you know, she certainly would have a hard time advancing on the bench now, having been repudiated by multiple justices. and yet, sure, it did delay this process, but, you know, there is an inevitability here that i sensed in this justice team, which is not this is not a mistake that he possesses these documents. he clearly, intended to take them, conceal them, and even under legal threat, will not turn them over. and i think that the judge

today, by not giving the contempt order may actually be signaling to the justice department, you actually have a remedy. you can go ahead and indict him, or you can seek another search warrant at other properties to get these documents. so they are not helpless at all. >> it remains to be seen whether this was an overturned to another search warrant. the special counsel who is leading the justice department on mar-a-lago is also leading the investigation into january 6th, and there has been some movement on that front. we know that there is a special committee meeting this weekend to decide on criminal referrals from the committee to the doj. some of the names that have been floated for criminal referrals include the former president, mark meadows, john eastman, jeff clark, the former justice department official, and rudy giuliani. when you think about this strange cast of characters that tried to use -- are those the primary aggressors? is that the fullest, to your mind? are we missing anybody? >> well, certainly, the latter

three that you named would likely be referred for obstruction of congress, or, not cooperating with lawful subpoenas. people who have information that could help the country and chose not to. donald trump i think is on the hook for impeding an official act. that is a different type of obstruction of congress when he aimed that mob at the capitol. that is up to the committee and ultimately up to the department of justice, but it is reassuring to finally see this legal crescendo taking place against somebody who, for so long, has really avoided accountability. >> it really does. that is just the right word for it, legal crescendo, because it does feel like this strings are swelling, if you will. california congressman, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> my pleasure. >> still ahead tonight, they call him the bicycle assassin, and he is reportedly very important to russian president vladimir putin. we will explain who he is, what he did, and what may happen to him next.

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and berlin's most popular intercity park was packed. a man on a bicycle showed up, and soon, witnesses saw how that man approached another man from behind, and shot him twice using a handgun prepped with a silencer. he then fired a final shot in the back of the victims head through the bicycle, a gun, and a wake into a nearby river, came too close, and flood the scene. people in the park followed him at a distance and called the police. he was soon arrested, all in broad daylight. the suspect had a fake passport with a fake name, but german authorities were quickly able to confirm his real identity. yes alison was -- a former russian spy. during the trial, evidence emerged that he was still on russia's payroll and was likely hired to kill -- in germany, a man who was an old enemy of moscow's and had

fought against -- in the war, russia was clearly sending a message. germany called it state tourism. terrorism. but providence notorious. that is because six years earlier, in 2013, he killed a businessman in moscow using the same method, on a bicycle, shooting his victim in the back, and in the head. he was labeled the five cyclists austin, after that murder he was placed in a wanted list in russia. that did not last long. his name was deleted from most russian databases, and he basically disappeared. today, he is in the news again, cnn reported today that vadim is the man that they wanted to trade against paul whelan. quote, russia refused to release paul whelan alongside britney griner unless someone

else was also released as part of a prisoner swap. the u.s. wasn't able to deliver on the request because he was serving out eli's life sentence for murder and germany. they offered other russian prison detained on u.s. soil as a potential trade for paul whelan, but russia was not interested. they wanted krasikov, and while it is unclear exactly what putin's plans are now, it is worth mentioning that all of this is happening against the backdrop of a war in ukraine. on that front, we have additional alarming news. putin said today that russia is considering adding a nuclear first strike strategy to its military doctrine, meaning putin is suggesting that he might use nuclear weapons that's a disarming strategy, if russia were to be attacked. it is a concerning statement from a country that insists often that it is the victim of western offenses. we will talk about the bicycle assassin and putin's nuclear option with former obama

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midterm election. while the party lost control of the house, democrats increased their majority in the senate, and they made historic gains in several state races. having a strong message, focused on protecting democracy and a woman's bodily autonomy, that certainly played a big part in keeping the thumping to a minimum. but having a certain former president as the closer it's also did not hurt. >> if you weeks ago, 14 members of adam licensed family, they were supporting katherine cortez masto, 14. think about that. think about that. let me say this, you know, we all might have a crazy uncle, you know, that kind of goes off the rails, but if you got a full thanksgiving dinner table,

and they are all saying you don't belong in the u.s. senate, when the people who know you best think you are a part who would do a better job, that says something about you. john's opponent said the decision about whether to have an abortion should be made by, quote, women, doctors, and local political leaders. really? i mean, are you going to petition the mayor? are you calling the sheriff? city council member? who exactly should tell you went to start a family? you should make that decision. and if that is not worth 15 minutes of your time, the amount of time it takes to vote, i don't know what is. >> former president barack obama hit the trail on the battleground states of nevada, michigan, pennsylvania, wisconsin, and georgia, in the

final stretch of the midterm election. and at every stop, the former president drew a contrast between conspiracy theorists, and democrats, mobilizing voters with the energy and humor we saw during his own candidacy, and presidency. joining us now is someone who has been there for all of president barack obama's pivotal moments, pete souza, the chief official white house photographer for president barack obama, he is the author of the new book, the west wing and beyond. what i saw inside the presidency. cases, that is great to see. great to see you. >> so all the folks that you put out about the obama presidents have been riveting. the photographs are so beautiful. this one is very much about the presidency around the president. but i want to start with the man himself since you know him in a way that few others do. and you've seen him, and he incredibly intimate, private moments. there was talk in washington that he was a reluctant campaign, or that he didn't

have an appetite for politics. but man, when you see him on the campaign trail. it's like the most natural thing in the world. what do you know and what can you tell us about the way in which he approached campaigning and talking to crowds? >> i don't know if he was reluctant or not but he sure turned it on. i won to the event in wisconsin and hadn't seen him for a while. and i sat backstage with him and talk to him for probably a half hour and we're talking about family stuff. he went out on stage and just like, boom. >> the magic. >> the magic he just turned it on. i was taken aback. >> he went from basically having a serious conversation with you to just lighting up the room. >> lighting it up. >> when you also -- vice president biden and president obama had a pretty specifically warm collegial relationship, you have a few photos in the new book, there is one that really grabbed me it's -- that's it. president biden holding

president obama's hand during a prayer. what can you tell me about the nature of that, that relationship, that friendship? >> i think it was beyond a friendship. i think was a brotherhood. they, and i think they especially bonded during the tragic here of beau biden's cancer diagnosis, his brain tumor. and vice president biden confided in president obama. i think a lot of things that he didn't tell anybody else. and i think that brotherhood really came to fruition during that period of time. >> it's so unique to characterize it as a brotherhood because a lot of people initially saw it as a paternal relationship since biden's considerably older than obama, he's been in politics much longer. part of the reasons why obama chose biden was because he was a newcomer to the american

political stage. and biden was a seasoned veteran, if you will. but it sounds like especially the later years that turned, or maybe a turned earlier than that, and there really was an equity and that relationship. and they had mutual need for one another. >> for sure. i think that joe came from such a different background that barack obama did. when the strand didn't point of view that was always evident and every discussion they had. and i think that was one of the main reasons why he counted on joe biden, especially in the early economic meetings. >> what can you tell us about eight years of joe biden in the white house. you were not the official photographer for the vice president, but he was around a lot. >> he was around a lot and i got to know him really well. and i've told people that he's as decent man as you can find. and as empathetic and compassionate person as i know

who is really kind to my mother, for instance. and i'll never forget that. >> he's the kind of person that will seeing someone happy birthday when he finds out it's their birthday, which happened actually this week to someone that i know. >> alex, two weeks before the election, right after my mom had died, joe biden called me. he's in the middle of this campaign in 2020 and he took the time to call me and spent ten minutes on the phone with me. talking about my mom. >> is it a strange thing to be the white house photographer and once you're doing your job, your also forged personal relationships with especially president obama. is it hard to separate that personal relationship with the job that you have to do which is -- you have to document these moments? >> i think it made it easier because you were wanted to be there. you are wanted to be in the

room where it happened and i think there is many pictures that i've never would've made because of the access if not for that relationship that i had with both president obama and vice president biden. >> did they remember you are in the room after a while, did they sort of forget about it? >> i think that became a part of the presidency. i would say that i was -- i wouldn't say i was part of the woodwork, but i was part of the paintings on the wall almost. >> these photos are beautiful chronicles of not just the principal players but there is reggie love falling asleep on the couch, the infrastructure of the presidency and the people that made the presidency possible it almost feels like a love letter to them. >> that's exactly what it is. because it's a big family that supports the president. and not just the appointees but the people that work there no matter who the president's. the butlers, the chefs, you know, what it's like they're. when >> i think everybody should get it to understand

what happens in the white house in a way that most formal presidential books don't often illustrate. >> it's not exactly like the west wing, the show. >> no! it's not. it's quite different. >> it's quite different. >> we pete souza, the official white house photographer for barack obama. a wonderful book. can we bring it back up so everyone can see it for the holiday purchasing? it's good to see the west wing and beyond. thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> okay, the technical remnants have been fixed and ben rhodes is ready to join us. so we will talk with him about the bicycle assassin and putin's nuclear option, coming up next. coming up next. my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection

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assassin after he killed a businessman in moscow in 2013. he did it again in germany in 2019. same method. on a bicycle with shots to the back and to the head of both of his victims. his name is vadim krasikov, the man that russia wanted to trade with the u.s. and exchange for releasing jailed american paul wheeler. why didn't work? we will discuss with ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser for president obama and co host of the podcast pod save the world. ben, thanks for being here, it's good to see you. can we just talk first about the trilateral a negotiation here. you've been part of high stakes in negotiation. vadim krasikov is in jail in germany serving a life sentence

for murder. the russians want him, he's not an american prisoner, the u.s. is tasked with somehow convincing germany to get krasikov out of jail. what is a trilateral negotiation like that and what can the u.s. offer germany in a situation like that? >> i mean it's incredibly complicated. when you're negotiating a prisoner exchange between two countries, it's difficult enough, alex. i think that the russian motivations here are a bit suspect. i mean first of all, they're kind of trying to put for the notion that the u.s. can tell germany what to do. we're just kind of them trying to create a fish or potentially between the u.s. german relationship. they want the u.s. and germany to be at odds with each other. part of me thinks that this might have been an effort to drive a wedge between us by getting us to try to press the germans to do something. and then the other thing is they have categorized paul whelan as an intelligence asset, essentially. and to them that raises the price for an exchange involving

him. so perhaps the richest testing to see how far it would go and how far they can get. because i can't see any scenario in which the united states is pressing to release someone in a third country, and allied country, who's been convicted of murder like this. >> as far as the release of whelan is concerned, do you think the door is closed at this point? there are various legal representatives who say, no, no, no. but whelan's family seems to think -- their quotas, the situation makes hope a little more difficult. do you think that there is the opportunity to negotiate further with putin on this? >> i do. i don't think the door is ever closed and i think frankly like the russians will do transactions. they're very transactional people. they've got viktor bout an exchange for britney griner. they will want to get something in exchange for paul whelan. i think the concerning thing in all the reports i've read, alex, is that they are insisting that he be treated in the espionage category.

that's a different category. and both paul whelan in the united states have insisted that he is not a spy for the united states. it just makes it a different kind of negotiation because the russians are maybe seeking other intelligence assets of their own and exchange. they warned to make it into a spy swap and we don't want to acknowledge because we insist it's not the case that paul whelan was involved in intelligence. so the doors never closed. the russians always do transaction. i think part of the sticking point is in which they're insisting on how they categorize paul whelan. >> if they categorize paul whelan as an intelligence asset, they're going to demand a high priority intelligence asset didn't return. the biden white house is under some amount of scrutiny if not outright criticism for the asymmetry of the trade they just made, victor brick for britney griner. brittney griner literally had nothing, no reason to be in a russian penal colony. victor bout did have a reason to be in prison in america, and

gel in america. if you are part of the biden administration, how careful do they need to be to make sure that the next swap is not as a symmetrical? can they do? that is there even appetite to engage in this big precisely because of the difficult decision to have to make on griner? >> i think they probably been going through this already, alex, for the last few months and this is probably contributing so much to the wheel and families disappointment. they've been testing in the negotiation that led to britney griner's release whether they could get paul whelan back in exchange for something that was not an exorbitant lead damaging and dangerous cost to them. having been involved in some of these decisions in the white house in the obama years, you look at a range of factors. you look at what kind of justice is being denied viktor bout only sort of a sentence. you look at what is the ongoing risk to social security for releasing this person. what is the message you're sending about the price is -- in other countries. there is a whole kind of matrix

that you have to run through. and clearly what the russians were asking for paul whelan, including perhaps this bicycle assassin, went well beyond with but they're comfortable with. it's back to square one. can you make a different kind of offer to the russians that might put paul whelan coming home back in play? i think right now the fact that we just have brittney griner returning home, which is wonderful news, obviously, in exchange for viktor bout, that suggest that the biden administration didn't like what the russians were asking for in return for paul whelan. >> what do you make of the fact that putin is threatening the nuclear option the day after this prisoner swap, the day after people are saying maybe this is a signal of warming relations are more open lines of communication between the u.s. and russia? is that saber-rattle very? what do you say about that? >> i think it's hard to indicate that this doesn't define -- relations. the u.s. has to be careful too. it's the case in past negotiations, i was involved in a negotiation to free alan

grocer, a detained american in cuba. we couple that negotiation with a much bigger negotiation than normalized relations that relations between u.s. and. cuba sometimes negotiations between prisoners can lead to discussions around bigger issues. i think the elephant in the room in this exchanges cut this lead to diplomacy on u.s. and russian bigger issues? ukraine is looking at that and saying, not without us in the room. you can talk about your detained citizens, you can talk about the global food crisis, you can talk about potential nuclear hotlines with russia, but don't talk about the resolution in the war of ukraine without ukraine. i think putin's message was, just because we did this transaction but the americans, don't think that that's me climbing down from the position i've taken vis-à-vis the west, vis-à-vis the war in ukraine. so i think it's status quo anti-for the broader tensions, even if we were able to get this important business done, getting brittani granholm. >> former deputy security adviser of president obama and co host of the podcast parts of the b