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katie phang show. velshi is up next. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> today on velshi, we are following breaking news out of qatar, where an american journalist has died while covering the world cup, according to qatari officials. grant wall was probably the best known soccer writer in the united states. his agent said the 48 year old went into a -- acute distress will working in the press box on friday. wallace made headlines just last month after reporting that he was briefly detained at a world cup game for refusing to remove a t-shirt with a rainbow logo showing solidarity with the lgbtq community. plus, members of the january six committee are poised to draw criminal referrals in the coming days. they are huddling this weekend to work out the final details and what you don't know about what it took to get american basketball star brittney griner out of russia and the dangers of a world where foreign governments are willing to take

civilian hostages. plus, democrats are insisting nothing will change for them in the senate now the arizona's kyrsten sinema has left the party to become an independent. just days after democrats won a super slim majority in that chamber. but one very important thing will change for cinema. that -- steve bannon joins me for the answer. van, epicenter of today's banned book club feature is a mystery in the quest, but it's also a multi layered story about grief and love and community. extremely loud and incredibly close is a new york times bestselling novel, and an oscar nominated movie, and it has been targeted by book banners. its author, johnson saffron forward, joins me later in the show. velshi begins now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> hey, good morning. it is saturday, december the. ten family velshi. we begin with the latest on the successful efforts to bring britney griner home to america from a penal colony in russia. griner, a two-time olympic gold

medalist and basketball star, officially stepped back onto american soil at joint base san antonio lackland in texas early easterday morning, after spending 290 days wrongfully detained by russia. russian authorities captured griner on february 17th, exactly one week before russia invaded ukraine at russia's sheremetyevo airport, claiming hashish vape cartridges were found in her luggage. however, the public didn't learn about griner's arrest until march 5th, when russian authorities revealed that they have the american in custody and had opened a criminal case for large-scale transportation of drugs against her. mere minutes after that revelation, the u.s. state department issued a do not travel notice for russia, adding the u.s. citizens residing or traveling in russia should depart immediately due to the potential for harassment, mistreatment, extortion against u.s. citizens by u.s. security

officials, the embassies limited ability to assist u.s. citizens, and arbitrary enforcement of local law, including interrogation without cause. russia, like its close ally, north korea, it does have a history of arresting and sentencing american citizens on what u.s. officials and experts say are bogus or inflated charges, potentially to use as leverage. importantly, russia did not allow u.s. officials consulate visits with griner until several weeks later, the first one was on march 23rd. her trial, if you want to call it that, began into life. days later, criner pleaded guilty, saying she had accidentally brought the hashish oil to russia and did not mean to break the law. notably, rachel's conviction rate it's about 99%, meaning it was all but certain she was going to be found guilty anyway. russia had publicly said it would not consider a prisoner swap until after the trial, after a verdict was reached. speaking of which, russian state media started saying in

late spring that a swap would focus on this man, then the tories russian arms dealer viktor bout. he is known as the merchant of death. until friday morning, and serving a 25-year prison sentence in the united states, and to russia has tried to get released for years. in late july, nbc news reported the u.s. government propose swapping griner and another american, currently detained in russia, the former marine paul whelan, whom russia has accused of espionage in exchange for bout. nbc news also learned russia responded to the offer by demanding the release of krasikov, a russian assassin who murdered a chechen fighter in a park in berlin in 2019. he is currently in prisons by germany. the u.s. has no legal claim over him. that demands, which u.s. officials consistently said showed the russians were not negotiating seriously, remains until recently saying that that

guy only changed after the u.s. midterm elections. however, the new russian offer was one for one. griner for bout. and american olympian accused and convicted of carrying a miniscule amount of hashish oil for an individual convicted on terrorism charges. persons are swapped for a dirty business. no matter how horrible and unfair and ridiculous, the russian side view this as an equal swap. a convict for a convict. and when a tangible option was on the table, the biden administration took it. shortly thereafter, griner and bout literally, this is grindr in the red jacket on the left, that scoot on the right, they crossed paths on the tarmac out abu dhabi, the capital of the united arab emirates, a country chosen because it maintains good relations with the u.s. and russia but also chosen because russia feared if they landed the plane in europe or in a nordic country, it could be seized because of sanctions resulting from its brutal invasion of ukraine. also yesterday, hours after britney griner landed in texas,

the u.s. announced another 275 $5 million in defense assistance for ukraine. the u.s. has so far pledged to 20 billion dollars for ukraine since the start of russia's invasion. meanwhile, russia continues to receive loads of assistance from iran. the white house says the two nations have formed a full fledged defense partnership. senior biden administration officials also say this partnership of evil flows both ways. russia providing a quote unprecedented level of military support and expertise, along with weapons, to iran, while russia has been receiving iranian-made self destructing dive bombing drones. they are called shopkeeper drones. russia has been using these drones several hundred of them, to conduct some legitimate military attacks inside ukraine, but maybe to attack to provoke terror and suffering on civilians and civilian infrastructure, especially power and electricity stations

far from the battlefield. some would call these war crimes. if u.s. official tells nbc news that iran has agreed to help russia manufacture these shouted drones on russian soil. we have a lot to talk about here. turning me to help understand all of this is the former cia director's john brennan. he's also an msnbc senior analyst and the author of undaunted, my fight against americas evidence for home and abroad. director brennan, good to see you this morning. thank you for joining us. we've got a lot of things we need to cover. let's start with britney griner and the criticism that has started spreading in the united states about why not paul whelan, the former president posted on his social media that it would've been easy to get paul whelan out, it was just a matter of asking. you've actually been involved in these kinds of things before. it's never actually a matter of just asking. >> no, it is not. it is very clear that brittney griner celebrity, as well as

national focus on her case, made her, in russia's eyes, a very valuable negotiating chip. which is why they held out for an exchange with someone like viktor bout. now, they consider paul whelan, who they have charged with espionage, being in a separate category. the russians traditionally have always insisted that individuals involved or alleged to be involved in intelligence activities should be exchanged for others who are similarly charged, for example, in the united states. so, therefore, they were unwilling to have paul whelan to be part of this deal, and that is something the biden administration said it, was a one for one and it was only related to brittney griner. >> one of the things that is becoming sort of obvious to us now is that most people, we used to think of as hostages, are now wrongfully detained people. they are taken by government or government affiliated bodies, and that complicates the negotiations for their release, because governments are

negotiating with other governments and russia will once either a convicted terrorist like they got's, or they are going to want possibly concessions, including concessions having to do with what is going on in ukraine. how do we manage and talk about detainees when they're held by governments, as opposed to by ransom groups of bandits? >> i think for many, many years, some governments, where the security services and that you distilleries are ponds of the political leadership, see u.s. citizens and foreign citizens as potential targets for either arrest to capture, as a way to either punish the united states, as well as to use as bargaining chips. that is why i think the state department rightly advice as u.s. citizens to be very wary of traveling to certain countries overseas, because of the potential vulnerability of these individuals. there's some countries i would not travel to, because i could, in fact, we put in a similar

situation. so, i do think this is something that united states has had to deal with over the years, as well as other western democracies, and it is something i think it's going to be continued to be a feature in the global landscape, as long as these authoritarian systems are going to try to use this type of leverage against us. >> i am reminded, when they talk about paul whelan at a spy, iran does the same kind of thing. they arrest sometimes journalists and business people with the allegation that they are spies. iran and russia have formed this remarkable partnership. i have to wonder, sir, whether this is an unforeseen consequences bailing out of that iran nuclear deal, where we at least had some influence with the iranian government. ever since leaving that deal, the iranians have become more hard-line. they feel like to be more hard-line government, and they've got this crackdown going on across the country, and they are working with russia. we don't talk much leverage there. >> i agree with you completely. when the trump administration tore up the iranian nuclear deal, i think first of, all it strengthens the hard-liners inside of iran, which led to

the election of president raisi, but, also it removed any type of influence or leverage we might have. so, i think iran's move towards russia is clearly a result of the decision by the trump administration to pull out of that deal, which we were in violation of -- so i think we see this happening in iran, and iran's relationship with russia and other countries is a result of consequence of what i felt was a very, very foolish decision by the trump administration. >> let me ask you about ukraine, because he followed this very, very closely. i too wonder about these attacks as winter sets in in ukraine on civilian infrastructure. the russians make the argument that energy infrastructure, electricity plants, and fuel depots our military or assists the ukrainians military effort. what they do is leave a whole lot of ukrainians in the cold in winter, without power, and in some cases, without water, which require electrical pumping stations. how do you evaluate that?

if that's true, that feels like a war crime. >> yes. those russian arguments, that the russians are also targeting with missiles, civilian population centers. they've killed numerous ukrainian citizens by their wanton destruction of the ukrainian landscape, and, so going after the critical infrastructure, power grids, water pumping stations, other types of things, are designed to weaken the resolve of the reopening of people. i think if anything, it's a strengthening the resolve, because it just demonstrates just how evil and ruthless putin has been in prosecuting this very unjust war. >> it strengthens global reserve, to, resolve to help ukraine in this effort. sir, thank you for joining us this morning. it's always a pressure to see you. john brennan is the former cia director. he is nbc news is senior security and national intelligence analyst. he is the author of undaunted, my fight against americas enemies at home and abroad. coming up next hour, i will break in the trials and

tribulations of paul whelan, the former american marine who continues to be in person by russia and how the person he is being held and it's a relic of the soviet union. plus, the january six committee is holding a special sunday session tomorrow on the agenda, criminal referral that i plans to hand to the doj. days after the georgia senate runoff handed democrats another victory, arizona senator kyrsten sinema says, i'm out. what it means that she's leaving the democratic party, next on velshi. next on velshi econd... and leon... the first of them all. three generations, who all bank differently with chase. leon's saving up for his first set of wheels... nice try. really? this leon's paying for his paint job on the spot... and this leon, as a chase private client, he's in the south of france, taking out cash with no atm fees. that's because this family of leons has chase. actually, it's león. ooh la la! one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. even when things seem quieter, one bank for now. for later. for life. the urge to protect means staying on the lookout

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when did you first discover this lag? i signed us up for t-mobile home internet. ugh! but, we found other interests. i guess we have. [both] finch! let's go! oh yeah! it's not the same. what could you do to solve the problem? we could get xfinity? that's actually super adult of you to suggest. i can't wait to squad up. i love it when you talk nerdy to me. guy, guys, guys, we're still in session. and i don't know what the heck you're talking about. >> just weeks before democrats

kicked off the new year with a new congress, one of the party's most controversial senators says she is leaving the party. yesterday, arizona's kyrsten sinema announced she will now serve her state as an independent, which announced, it was in the house in which according to axios was quote, long in the making. it doesn't seem like this move is going to change much in the senate. sinema still plans to caucus with democrats in the same way

that independent senators bernie sanders of vermont and angus king of maine currently do. she is also expected to keep all of her committee assignments. before her party switch, democratic congress men rubin but gallego was considered a strong primary candidate to sinema in 2024. according to a post -- on msnbc.com, my colleague steve bannon writes, earlier this year, data for progress polled arizona democrats and found incumbent senator sinema trailing gallego 47% to 60%. that's not a typo. she actually trail the popular congressman by 58 points. steve goes on to say sinema was very likely to lose a democratic primary. her voting record made a run at a republican implausible, and she didn't want to walk away from capitol hill all together, becoming an independent is a sensible strategy. and. quote for more of what makes senator sinema take, i'm joined with the aforementioned steve

bannon. he's from the nbc -- msnbc political tribute are in the editor of the meadow block. he's also the author of the book, the impostors, how republicans quit governing and seize american politics. steve, good morning to. you thank you for being with me, my friend. there's anything functionally change back here since intimate is not a democrat? >> the short answer is no. i think when we get up in the morning start seeing the headlines about the news, a lot of us heard the word earthquake. this is being eight years use around a bit. this is a political earthquake, but once the details came into focus and we started learning about the details, i think the political rector scale showed a relatively small number. this is not exactly an earthquake. this is something that will have a relatively few practical consequences. there will be a 51 member senate democratic conference, in terms of maturity. before, it will have to independents, and now has three. >> the white house, the response to the white house took some of the wind out of its sails. they downplayed it by saying they are confident they are

going to continue to successfully work with her. it's the biden administration generally unfazed by this move? >> i think we all appearances,. yes when we look at this from the white house's perspective, all the president biden and his team care about is -- that is their principal goal. as far as they are concerned, the principal, the substantive -- substantial outcome will be the same. she is going to be a member of the democratic conference for all intents and purposes. she'll be a partner with. and she will continue to vote that she has, according to her. she's been a relatively reliable partner for the white house, and so, as far as they're concerned, all systems go. >> what happens? you wrote about the polling that indicated reuben gallego was in a strong position. what happens next? does he then run as the democratic candidate storey candidate and she runs as an independent? >> that is a good question. it is that good question. i think at this point, there's still some ambiguity's about the future, but by all appearances, reuben gallego is still very much interested in a

2024 campaign. the arizona democratic party is interested in him running for the nomination in 2024. what we have to wait to see is whether democrats make this calculus. i think from the centrist perspective, she is placing a gamble. she's thinking okay, they're not going to want to run against an incumbent independent and run the risk of electing a republican in this seat. but i think but more likely outcome is that we will have a three great matchup, featuring a republican democrat and the incumbent independent, who is not especially popular popular in her home state of arizona. >> just kind of interesting, because arizona is one of the states or you look at it by the numbers, there are roughly similar numbers of registered republicans, independents, and democrats. how does one even -- look, this election is a long way away, but how does one even gauge that? who wins in a situation like that? >> the answer, to me, from my perspective is, it's a pence on who republicans dominate. if they were to nominate, for example, a popular two term incumbent republican governor, i think he would be very

competitive in such a competition. but on the other hand, as we've seen this year, when republicans go to the ballot box for republican party mary, especially senate races, they have a habit of nominating some real crack pots. so, with that in mind, if they were to do so again in 2024, nominating a far right, unelectable extremists, along the lines of someone like masters, then we have a situation in which there would be a very competitive contest between sinema and the hypothetical congressman by the name of ruben gallego. that would be a dynamic worth watching. it would make it one of the most important races in the 20 in 2020. >> yesterday, this was a big story of the morning. by evening, it was not. because kari lake, the unsuccessful republican gubernatorial candidate, is now suing to get yourself, i don't, no names or proclaimed or whatever as the governor. steve, good to see you. steve bannon is the editor of the -- msnbc political and the author of the impostors, how republicans quit governing and seize american politics. all right coming up so january

six committee prepares to release its final report, the panel is holding a special sunday session tomorrow to discuss whether to make criminal referrals. the former u.s. attorney joyce vance talks about who we know and who can potentially be targeted. targeted family is just very important. she's my sister and we depend on each other a lot. she's the rock of the family. she's the person who holds everything together. it's a battle, you know. i'm going to be there. keytruda and chemotherapy meant treating my cancer

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referrals to the justice department. the committee is aiming to release its final report on december the 21st. that report is expected to be about 1000 pages long and to focus on the central role that donald trump paid in spreading the big lie that the election was stolen, the run up to the insurrection at the capitol. committee chair bennie thompson says he and his colleagues are planning to make a criminal referral to those apartment of justice against those who played a role in the planning and coordination of the insurrection. it's still unclear how many referrals they will make, but those details are expected to be hashed out tomorrow, when members of the committee plans to meet virtually to discuss the matter. joining me now is joyce vance. she's the former u.s. attorney for the district of alabama. she's an msnbc columnist and contributor in the co-host officer small podcast. joyce, good morning to. q thank you for being with us. this is one of those things where if you missed a little bit of hits, you are going to hear this conversation about criminal referrals outlaw for the next 11 days. i want to step back and ask you, what does it mean that the

january six committee will make criminal referrals? what is that? >> so, this is not the branch of government that is charged with making prosecutorial decisions. they have no formal authority to charge anyone, and doj, as we've discussed on the couple of occasions, it's very much in the mode of ignoring external influence when it comes to charging decisions. but this is a very unusual situation. congress, this subcommittee, in many cases, has been ahead of the rest of the country in prosecutors on where the evidence is. so, as much as the charging recommendations they make here i think will be influential with the public, perhaps even at doj, the real role they play here is explaining the crimes and something forth the evidence that substantiates each of those crimes, and this report may prove to be unusually influential in that regard. >> so, yeah. explaining the crimes, not a

legal thing, as a prosecutor, former prosecutor, what do you do with that? if you are the department of justice and you get this 1000-page report of the criminal referrals, i imagine there will be more specific about whether by thousand-page report, what that is supposed to happen? >> well, prosecutors are working on an independent track. the special counsel is investigating. he has taken over matters. he is looking at everything surrounding the efforts to interfere with the transfer of power. and normally, you would expect doj to be pretty well insulated from anything on the political side of things. but here, doj has to stop and take notice. we know merrick garland has said that he and other people at the oj watch the hearings, and that is because this subcommittee did such a fabulous job. i think they exceeded everyone's expectations, maybe even their own, for being able to surface new evidence and put the evidence together in a way that compellingly told the stories of the crimes that had been committed.

doj has a rare opportunity to piggyback off of congress's work here. >> can jack smith or the department of justice, in attempting that piggyback, they actually use the testimony and the evidence that the january six committee got? or will they have to re-interview or require that same evidence? >> right. so, what they will receive from the subcommittee in that form of evidence will be helpful, but they will need to do to work on their own for. one thing, as a prosecutor, you've got to make sure you understand what i witnessed will say if they are called to testify and how well they will stand up under cross examination. so, you need to see them for yourself. you also need to make sure there is nothing, for instance, exculpatory information that they are in possession of that might tends to show what the people you are thinking about prosecuting is not guilty of the crime. so, prosecutors have to do their work independently. congress gives them a big head start here. >> obviously, there are some

smart legal minds on the january six committee. they have lawyers themselves. and there's always this possibility that the work that they would do would head towards the prosecution of someone by the department of justice. did they, in your opinion, do the necessary legal work to guarantee that when we make this referral, it feels airtight? it feels like a case of department of justice can say all right, we'll move forward. we will do our own long division on its, but do you feel they sort of met the standard that the justice department would have to meet if it were to charge anyone criminally? >> so, we'll have to wait and see what the final form of this subcommittee support looks like and how clearly the evidence is laid out. but of course, convicting someone in the court of public opinion is very different from convicting someone in a federal courtroom, where there are rules that govern the admissibility of evidence. for example, cassidy hutchinson, whose testimony was so very influential for the

subcommittee, most of what she talked about was hearsay. she was testifying about out of court, active committee hearings and conversations she had with people, and she was presenting that testimony for its truth. that is the classic definition of hearsay, talking about something that happens out of courts and presenting those conversations as truthful testimony. that is not admissible in a court of law. so, doj will have to go back and if they are interested in pursuing those sorts of claims, they will have to find admissible evidence and when you stack up all the evidence together, it will establish guilt behind a reasonable doubt. we use a somewhat lesser burden of proof in the court of public opinion. you now, is it intuitive? perhaps, something that is more likely than not. doj will have to be focused on those very difficult burdens. it has to be. >> you have some of the questions about this and you so -- joyce vance is the former attorney for the district of

alabama. she's an msnbc columnist and contributor in the co-host of the sisters in law podcast. all right, coming up next, breaking news from overseas. the american sports journalist, grants wahl, who wasn't qatar covering the world cup, has died while covering a high profile match. but we know about his death, next. h, next t! from hosting essentials to just right gifts. you shouldn't have! holiday your heart out with wayfair. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ get refunds.com powered by innovation refunds can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too. qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds. flu symptoms hit harder than the common cold.

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and the largest automotive donor to meals on wheels... ...and make-a-wish. get a new subaru during the share the love event and subaru and our retailers will donate three hundred >> we have some breaking news dollars to charity. overnight. longtime american soccer journalist, grants wahl, died last night while covering the world cup in qatar. he was 48 years old.

according to a spokesperson for qatar's supreme committee for delivery and legacy, wahl was reporting on a match between two top teams when he quote, fell ill, collapse, and later died. wahl was an outspoken reporter who was briefly detained last month before a match for wearing a rainbow shirt is support of lgbtq rights. he recently wrote a critical article about the qatari government and its reaction to the death of migrant workers at the world cup. nbc's megan fitzgerald has more on wahl's deaf. >> this morning, the sports world waking up to a devastating blow. 49 year old sports writer, grant wahl, collapsing in the press box what he was covering the argentina netherlands match last night. cpr was administered for several minutes but wahl didn't make it. the qatari government saying, in part, he received immediate emergency medical treatments on site, which continued as he was transferred by ambulance to ahmaud general hospital. the day before his death, wahl, a longtime soccer writer for sports illustrated, sit on his podcast he had been feeling ill

for the last two weeks. >> i took some time off myself. my body, i think, told me even after the u.s. went out, dude, you are not sleeping enough. and it rebelled on me. and so i thought a case of bronchitis this week. i've been to the medical clinic at the media center twice now, including today. >> his colleagues stunned. >> he was incredibly hardworking. he was very, very confident. he was a really, really good writer. a very hardness reporter. he went after stories with a confidence i definitely did not have. he believed in everywhere he wrote. >> wahl wasn't afraid to push boundaries. his final report, a rebuke of qatar's world cup organizers for their alleged mistreatment of migrant workers. he also made international headlines last month, when he tweeted, he was briefly detained by qatari security for wearing a rainbow shirts to a match, supporting gay rights. >> this was an issue he thought

was really, really important for him. it was a very personal issue. and he believed that. >> this morning, athletes far and wide from lebron james -- >> may he rest in paradise. >> to megan rapinoe, devastating -- expressing devastation. u.s. soccer releasing a statement that it was heartbroken. wall's wife, prominent doctor celine -- responding saying, she was in complete shock. >> that was megan fitzgerald reporting. according to a seed and biden administration official of the white house, they are currently in touch with grant wahl's, wife dr. celine gounder, and is referring to the state department essay top -- doctor gounder's been a frequent guest on velshi, giving safety advice as the nation navigated the coronavirus pandemic. we want to offer our deepest condolences to celine, prince friends, and loved ones as we manage this troubled time. back in october, i conducted one of the most important interview since this shows inception, which judge michael looting, the retired

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past couple of months, you probably told me heard me talk about the supreme court case known as noru be harper exchange democracy even know it. it began in north carolina with heavy gerrymandered congressional maps drawn by the republican controlled legislature. the maps favored republicans for winning elections analyst any scenario, even with an evenly divided popular vote. the state supreme court rejected the maps, arguing that they violated the north carolina constitution's guarantee of free elections, free speech, free assembly, and equal protection. but the republican state legislatures pushback and appealed. they are using a little known concept called the independent

state legislature theory to ask the supreme court for unfettered power to set rules for voting and elections without state constitutional limits. the iss theory says that state legislatures have absolute power doesn't election rules and dispute outcomes. the supreme court began hearing arguments in more via harper this week. they were quite animated. on wednesday, after three hours of arguments, the court seemed divided. three justices, elena kagan, and kentucky brown jackson, all seem to reject the theory. on the other side, justices samuel lead, out near gore shake, and clarence thomas seem to favor independent state legislator theory. it was unclear where they remained in three stand. john roberts and kavanaugh and amy careening brett. as it gains detention of the last few months, legal scout scholars across the political spectrum have expressed doubt, even outrage, that the court would even consider adopting i.s. l, as it is referred to. during the argument on wednesday, justice elena kagan step summed up the significance of the theory.

>> this is a theory with big consequences. it would say that if a legislature engages in the most extreme forms of gerrymandering, there is no state constitutional remedy for that even if the courts think that that is a violation of the constitution. it would say that sludge legislatures couldn't actual manner of restrictions on voting. get rid of all kinds of voter protections that the state constitution, prohibits. in might allow the legislatures to insert themselves, give themself a role in the certification of elections. and then all of these ways i think what might strike a person is that this is a proposal that gets rid of the normal checks and balances on the way big governmental decisions are made in this country. and you might think that it

gets rid of all those checks and balances at exactly the time when they are needed most. >> that was justice elena kagan laying out in stark terms how a broad acceptance of independence day legislature theory could be catastrophic for democracy as we know it. eliminating checks and balances when we need the most. court watchers believe there is some possibility of a compromise. and interpretation of the theory that allows some limited judicial oversight of lawmakers decisions on election rules. but even that degree problems for truly free and fair elections. there is one person in particular whom i thoroughly enjoy talking to on this matter. he is a want to introduce it to me, judge michael luttig. he is standing by in will join me after a quick break. s standing by in will join me after a quick break me after a quick break s skyrizi. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months... and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections, or a lower ability to fight them, may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms,

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months, and now, the supreme court's hearing more of the harper, a case that censure around the once fringe siri that could use democracy as we know it. of course, i had to bring back judge michael luttig. he's a former judge on the u.s. court of appeal for the fourth circuit. he played a crucial role in upholding the result of the 2020 election, when trump and his allies were attempting to overturn its. he's seen a something as an expert on these matters. thank you for being with us so early this morning. we appreciate your time as always. >> good morning, ali. thank you for having me with you today. >> judge, i want to ask you about the idea that you and others have referred to this as a fringe theory, or a theory

that has no basis in reality. but those who propose it or advocate for its points to article one in the constitution, section four, clause one, which reads that times, places, and manner of holding elections for senators representatives should be prescribed in each state by the legislature there of, for the congress made anytime by law, make or alter such regulations, except as to the places of choosing senators. and for proponents of state legislatures theory, there's nothing here that needs to be subject to courts or judicial interpretation. why is that not the right way to look at this? >> ali, it was a day of high constitutional and political drama at the supreme court. the stakes for american democracy were probable throughout the three hour long arguments. it is always perilous to attempt to find where and the one justice, let alone the supreme court, as a whole, is thinking from the questions.

but andrea questions, it is possible, and i think that this wednesday was such a rare occasion. to your specific question, that is, what article one says, the constitution does empower the legislature of the state to prescribe that time, place, and manner of holding congressional elections. the petitioners argument really boiled down to what they called the textual argument that because the constitution confers that's power upon the state legislatures, then that power is exclusive, and there is no other state power that's can be brought their of their legislations decision, such as the state constitutions as

enforced by the state supreme courts. and or executive power such as wielded by the governors of the states. >> and the governor of north carolina has actually penned an op-ed to say he doesn't share that opinion. the argument judge ketanji brown jackson put forward was, quoting from, her what i guess is or nato understands how you can cut the state constitution out of the equation when it is giving the state legislature the authority to exercise legislative power. and i guess the conflict here is, is the state constitution the governing body when it comes to elections, or is the constitution of the united states of america the power, and how do you square that circle for my viewers? that's the judiciary half the rights to say to a legislature, what do you have written here, this, lot does not comport with our constitution? >> certainly one parts of the

responses arguments, ali, is that the state legislature are creatures of the state constitutions. therefore, the federal constitution in the elections clause takes the state legislatures as it finds them, namely, as bound by the state constitutions. so, that is how the respondents square the arguments. frankly, that is how i square the argument myself as well. >> so, what happens here? it seems to get, when i hear you talk about this, point obvious. it seems when i listened to kneel come to yell or others, quite obvious. and yet, the supreme court is considering this. there are three justices who appear prepared to accept the independent state legislator theory. there are three who appear not to accept it, and three where we don't have full information on where they're going to go on this. it's a little surprising.

this is before the supreme court. what is the consequence of the supreme court allowing this to go through, allowing independent state legislator theory to become a real thing? >> ali, i understand the reaction of many that the courts ought not even to be hearing this case, but i disagree with that. we need to remember the independent state legislator theory was the centerpiece of the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. in that situation, the issue arose in the context of the electors clause, not the elections clause, as in moore v. harper. but nonetheless, the supreme court had an obligation to decide this independent state legislator theory sooner rather than later, arguably, it was obliged to decide the case in the summer of 2020.

before january six, the court declined. there was never any question in anyone's mind. it follows the court that the court would take the independent state legislature question at its first opportunity, and that turned out to be in moore v. harper, in the context of the elections clause. it is almost impossible and a perilous to attempt to the fine with the individual justices, much less the entire court, is thinking. but as i said at the outset, in this case, because of the superior quality of the advocates before the courts, both for the petitioners and respondents and the fact that the court was prepared to understanding the enormous importance of the case for the american democracy, and,

finally the fact that the argument was three hours long. i believe that this is a circumstance where we can draw a tentative conclusion. for instance i, was left with a clear impression that the court as a whole has no appetite for the independent state legislator theory. indeed, i believe that all nine justices we're clearly troubled about petitioners not the idea of the independent state legislature. independent, that is, of the state supreme courts and the state constitutions. if the court does end up injecting the independent state legislator theory, it may well still attempt to fashion a standard review that would constrain the stakes supreme court, and the state constitutions. it