argument was three hours long. i believe that this is a circumstance where we can draw a tentative conclusion. for instance i, was left with a clear impression that the court as a whole has no appetite for the independent state legislator theory. indeed, i believe that all nine justices we're clearly troubled about petitioners not the idea of the independent state legislature. independent, that is, of the state supreme courts and the state constitutions. if the court does end up injecting the independent state legislator theory, it may well still attempt to fashion a standard review that would constrain the stakes supreme court, and the state constitutions. it would be fair, i think, to

say that the court did not have any idea when the state, to put that standard might be, and frankly, neither the advocates. there did seem to be a consensus in the courtroom, though, that the standard adopted by the court would have to be highly deferential. highly deferential to the state supreme courts, and to their interpretations off their own state constitutions. i believe, ali, under any standard adopted, the court will affirm the decision of the north carolina supreme court, as i've said, if for no other reason than that the north carolina legislature legislated judicial review of its redistricting decisions by the court under the state constitutions. well, when somebody has learned as u.s. so optimistic, so am i because everything i know about

this is from you. we appreciate the way you make this accessible. i don't know that my muscles necessarily make a point of following these court cases as they are going on. this would be important to read up on so that when the results come out, when the decision is made, we understand the implications. judge, always good to see. thank you, we appreciate your time. >> thank you, ali. >> judge michael luttig is a former federal judge for the u.s. court of appeals for the fourth circuit. don't go anywhere, straight ahead we'll break down everything you need to know about the tomorrow's special committees setting of the house january six committee. that's tomorrow. another hour of velshi, begins right now. f velshi, begins right now. good morning to you, it's saturday the somber the tenth. i'm ali velshi. donald trump is no stranger to legal scrutiny. he and his companies have been named party in many lawsuits

stretching back decades, including some notable once the force them to pay out millions of dollars. just a few years ago while he was still president he agreed to pay $25 million to settle a trio of lawsuits involving the so-called trump university, a business scheme that new york's former attorney general called quote, a sham. trump has even been the subject of a federal execution before. in 1973 when he was just 27 years old beginning his career as a businessman, trump, has, father and their company were sued by the justice department for allegedly discriminating against black people who are looking to rent a unit in their properties in violation of the fair housing act. but donald trump has never faced the kind of serious and intense legal scrutiny that he is facing now as a result of the alleged mishandling of hundreds of classified documents and other government records. and especially, the central role that we saw him play in encouraging an insurrection of the capital nearly two years ago. it is all coming to a head this month. there are only three weeks left

before the january six committee is dissolved, and it's and game according to committee chair betty thompson, now includes issuing one or more criminal referrals to the department justice. in a matter of days, the group will publish its long awaited final report. a document that is reportedly about 1000 pages long that details evidence of all the waves that the twice impeached, disgraced former president worked to subvert democracy in an attempt to deny joe biden the presidency. >> that report is expected to drop on december the 21st, just 11 days from now when committee chair betty thompson told reporters on capitol hill that in addition to the final report, the committee is already decided that it would issue criminal referrals. he also said committee members have not yet agreed on a final list of targets for those referrals. donald trump is an obvious target, as has long been reported. but there are many other people within trump's orbit who participated in his desperate scheme to cling to power. and now some of them can also

be facing criminal liability. that is an idea that january six committee member, california congressman adam schiff reiterated to my msnbc colleague chris hayes on thursday night. >> we are not ready to announce anything. we will put out a report, but we are not confining our examination just to the president or anyone else. and we will be making our findings known pretty soon. >> it is not always inevitable that the general six committee would issue criminal referrals. as early as the summer, the committee's chairman this would say that a criminal referral would be an unlikely outcome of its work. well committee members jimmy raf mint aloft men were uncertain was necessary. but a few months later the whole committee seems to come together on this idea. ultimately however, the decision to file criminal charges on this or any case risks exclusively with the department of justice. but a criminal referral from congress could support its decision to do so. with time doing the gender six committee, it will make the

crucial decision on criminal referrals this weekend. according to politico, members will meet tomorrow to discuss the details of their final plans of the report and any possible criminal referrals. joining me now, jill wideman. she is a former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. co-host of the sisters of law podcast, author of the book the watergate girl. jill, great to see you again. welcome for thank you for being with. that's what i think we're all trying to get ahead around is, it is going to be remarkable report. it's gonna be 1000 pages. we're all going to try to digest it. but these criminal referrals, what do they mean, what influence could they have, who will they likely include? what is your best guess given what you know? >> my best guess is that they are influential for the american public. the department of justice will make its decision based on the law and the fact that they have. those facts will now include whatever is in the report, all

thousand pages. the referral would be pulling out of that some amount of evidence that says, we think that based on these facts there are the following crimes. so that could be one way they present the referrals. in effect, the watergate prosecution team made a referral to the impeachment committee. not to the department of justice. because of course we had prosecution power. and the only reason for referrals that they do not have any power to do anything in terms of crimes. they can only make a referral to to the doj which can then act. so they could simply just say, read our reports and you will see evidence of many crimes. that is sort of what we did. we presented evidence. we gave them taper courting's inside if you look at these you will find impeachable offenses. so it could be as vegas that,

or it could be asked specific as we think there is a violation of, and then they can less like rams. >> so if the public as likely to be influenced by the january six committee and the hearings that we have heard so far, how does not influence carry from the justice department? in other words, they have a lot of this information. what will the influence be that the committee says either read a report and you will find that we have uncovered some stuff, or hear some specific people that we think you should charge which such and such crime? what is the influence of that report given that there is a parallel investigation going on, and a special prosecutor? >> i suppose that it is possible that they see pressure from this. that they see that the american public knows -- . >> but i don't think it will work. i think that -- will look at -- as well as whatever they have obtained. and remember, we only know what

is public. there may be something in either what congress gets to the department of justice, or their own grandeur emotion. maybe they have found some exculpatory evidence. or they have found inconsistencies through what witnesses are telling them, what witnesses told the department of the january six committee, and those are things that have to be worked out because if you want to get a jury to convict, if you want to have that sustained on appeal which of course you want to have if you are a prosecutor, then you must know exactly what everyone has ever said. and if there are inconsistencies, you have to resolve that or else the jury will reject it has many and you won't get a conviction. >> one of the things after sisters in law colleagues, joyce vance, is the standard that the gender six committee employed. is that going to be, obviously that is not the standard that the department of justice would have to employ. so how much of the work that

will be shown in the thousand pages, the long division that degenerates committee did, how much of a transfers over? it doesn't even transfer over to the justice department of to do its own work on everything that they read in the report? >> well i certainly as a prosecutor would never put on the stand a witness that i hadn't already completely interrogated myself. that i hadn't compared to and anything that everyone else had said. you want to compare what they said to you, what they said the january six committee. this is really much like watergate. remember, we had our witnesses testifying in public before the senate. we had to make sure that they didn't say something to the senate that was inconsistent with information that they gave us or that other witnesses gave us because the truth comes from having all of the sources be consistent. and so, joyce was correct. when i heard her this morning, she is absolutely correct. the department task to do its

own work. they will benefit from seeing what the department is getting from the january six committee. but they cannot just rely on that and go ahead and say, oh they sent us now. we will indict on that. no. you have to bring them and you have to question them. you have to make sure that you have confidence in their testimony and that it is consistent with everything else that you know. >> was it your sense, having followed this for a really long time, that donald trump faces legal jeopardy is a result of this? >> yes. it has been my feeling. well i can't even remember how far back you go. just based on what we know in, with the caveat that we don't know if there is exculpatory evidence that hasn't been made public. although i would have to say, if there was exculpatory evidence, donald trump or his lawyers would have made it public. so i think it is unlikely that there is. but just in case, i'm hedging my bets. i would say that the evidence

shows multiple crimes. and it is not just the ones that we are looking at in terms of the violence of january 6th, the mar-a-lago case, the fulton county case may have a federal component to into as well. the tax case that was just convicted in new york. there are federal crimes that have -- . if you cheated on your say taxes, if you deprive new york of tax revenue by your scheme, then you were also depriving federal government of taxes. so maybe there will be a federal indictment for that. there is his audit that has been planning for all this time. does he owe a refund to the irs? based on that. stormy daniels has come up again as maybe the case in which he was unindicted coconspirator one, and it which michael cohen was convicted. maybe that will be a case. so none of that is probably in the report that will go from

the january six committee to the department of justice but, when you ask about criminal liability overall for donald trump, i would say there is a lot of potential criminal liability. >> it is so good to see. union thank you for joining my. friend former federal prosecutor, she is the co-host of the sisters in law podcast and the author of the book the watergate girl. still ahead on velshi, while popular to children's event is being targeted by right wing extremists. plus today, the subject of the bell velshi banned book club doesn't really nearly underway. we'll be speaking with award-winning author of an extremely loudoun incredibly clothes. jonathan saffron faux. it follows coaches nine-year-old author of search for answers after his father's death in the september 11th attack. it's nibbling complex novelty grapples with grief, then we dynamics, and identity. and the reason it has been banned might surprise you. right after the break, the brother of paul whelan how some words for the presidency left his brother in russia. and no, he is not talking about biden. that is. nextthat is. next

well, we fell in love through gaming. but now the internet lags and it throws the whole thing off. when did you first discover this lag? i signed us up for t-mobile home internet. ugh! but, we found other interests. i guess we have. [both] finch! let's go! oh yeah! it's not the same. what could you do to solve the problem? we could get xfinity? that's actually super adult of you to suggest. i can't wait to squad up. i love it when you talk nerdy to me. guy, guys, guys, we're still in session. forcibly were, malnourishment, and i don't know what the heck you're talking about.

corporate punishment, medical neglect, psychological pressure, these are conditions you might expect natives a prisoner in the infinite solely be it gelotte. it's certainly not what you would picture on the european continent. but, some 30 years after the ball the serving union, conditions like that still exist in russian prisons. the gulag refers to the soviet forced labor system that was set up by vladimir lenin. but really reached its peak under joe's stalin. the gulag was a brutal instrument of political repression and torture. prisoners were forced to work on grueling construction and mining projects, often extreme weather and without food or water. millions died of exhaustion, starvation, or disease. and others were simply executed. the gulag operated until shortly after stolen start in 1953. but the spirit iselin isn't least and russia's modern correctional system is alive

and well. today the most common type of prison in russia is a course of labor colony. also known as a penal colony. last, year a russian reporter spoke to the covered the grim conditions inside this. commies they told us that regular readings by guards, persons medical supplies are routinely confiscated on their arrival in prison. contacts have to be gravely ill before they are admitted to the medical bay. medical staff to little more than handout painkillers. the former prisoners accused medical staff of turning a blind eye to brutality toward in means. under russian law, inmates have to work often forced into 12 to 14 hours of manual labor poor day. by most accounts, all of us has changed in the russian correctional system since the gulag. all interchanged is its name. even the types of prisoners and

the offenses bear resemblance of the past. prisoners of the gulag range from petty criminals to political emmys of the communist regime. beyond hind bars in the modern penal colonies are russian dissidents that criticize vladimir putin's rule, and in some cases, american basketball player. or american marines. the wnba player's and britney griner spent ten months in russian detention. she's been about one month of that in a labor colony. right now, the extent of the conditions that griner faced while in prison is yet unclear. she was released on thursday in a high-profile present changes the u.s. released russian arms dealer, victor bout. the six foot nine inch athletes crime was possession of a vape cartridges containing cannabis oil. as for viktor bout, once nicknamed the merchant of death, he was serving a 25 year sentence for conspiring to sell sentiments of dollars worth of weapons. which american officials say we're going to be used against

americans. the crimes don't stack up. but it is the deal that the biden administration felt that it had to make in order to get griner out of russia. now, an american history from serving a sentence in inhumane conditions on trumped up charges. they remains another american wrongfully imprisoned in russia. paul whelan is a former murillo marine turned security executive. in 2018, well russia for a wedding, he received a flash drive from an acquaintance. whelan maintained he believed the flashback contained family photos. russian officials say held confidential state secrets. he was arrested on espionage charges. in 2020 he was sentenced to 60 years hard labor in a penal colony. paul whelan in the american government has repeatedly said that the charges are baseless, politically motivated, and maintain that he was framed. whelan has spent most of his confinement in a high security, infinite infinitely notorious colony and more dover. his family reports corruption

abuse of the colony. last week. they said he was moved to solitary confinement for a month. it is not clear to his family why he was sent into isolation. paul's brother david said he was not permitted to exercise or shower at all during his monthlong say that isolation. paul whelan was not included in this prisoner exchange, but the biden ministration said it was not for lack of trying. the white house have been negotiating with russia on both griner and whelan's release, but in the end, the white house said that the russians were quote, not operating in good faith when it came to mr. whelan. secretary of state anthony blinken explains quote, that choice was one or none. >> this is the second time mr. whelan has been passed over in a russian u.s. prisoner swap. earlier in the year, the biden ministration extreme change trevor reed, also former marine, for a russian pilot. the russians say poland is a spy. and that could be why russia is playing hardball, given the nature of the espionage charges. even if there are bogus, the russians see whelan as a more

valuable asset then griner. they see him as a pawn, a bargaining chip, not a human being. president biden promises to keep negotiating for winds. release wilson was first arrested in december 2018. it was never really good time for an american to be to taint in russia, but in 2018 the trump administration had a complicated and unpredictable relationship with the kremlin. the former president appeared particularly chummy with putin. a man who helped him get elected. it was this president of the united states to publicly sided with lateral putin over u.s. intelligence agencies. now, throughout his captivity, paul whelan and his family bagged president trump to do something. anything. during a 2019 quarter parents in moscow, he pleaded to trump to tweet, tweet your intentions. president trump trump stayed silent, believe it or not. he ignored paul whelan in his case. in 2018, in 2019, and in 2020 when he was still in office. a review of public databases of mr. trump's tweets and public

remarks by the independent, revealed that trump did not utter paul whelan's emotional time while he was held captive under his watch. and this week, right on cue, donald trump chimed in. he wrote on his social media platform, truth social, why wasn't former marine paul whelan included in this totally one-sided transaction? he would have been let out for the ax getting. what an unpatriotic embarrassment for the u.s.. paul whelan's brother reacted on twitter saying, former president trump appears to imagine by brother peel paul whelan's wrongful detention more in the last 24 hours than he did in the two years of his presidency in which paul was held hostage by russia. i don't suggest he cares nowtod, and today the world knows paul whelan's name. . s paul whelan's name. aving up for his first set of wheels... nice try. really? this leon's paying for his paint job on the spot...

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lost public spaces across the across america have become increasingly hostile. to that community. you're probably aware of the proud boys role in the general six insurrection. now they're showing up armed experiments across the country. what were once fringe views about the lgbtq+ community, have become increasingly normalized by conservative politicians and pendants from libraries, schools, health clinics, and entertainment venues. the great community is under attack entranced we one particular are facing an unprecedented onslaught of disinformation and violent rhetoric from the far-right. it has led to the introduction of hundreds of anti-transgender bills across the country that seek to erase protections for trans youth or ban any mention of lgbtq+ issues in public schools. in just the past two years, there has been a quote, stephen sustained increase in the rate of right wing protests pushing anti lgbtq plus claims. according to the research group, crowd counting consortium.

threats to the trans and queer community have included bomb threats to clinics serving trans youth, armed paramilitary groups showing up to queer vents, online bullying, in the deadly november 19th mass shooting at the club q in colorado springs. in the summer alone, keeping in mind that we are less than two weeks into the month, there have been multiple threats against trans individual and we're friendly spaces. in north carolina, pain o'connor, the first openly trans member of the asheville school board announced her resignation this week following non stop harassment from a christian nationalist group. in columbus, ohio last saturday, armed protesters that included members of the proud boys lined up outside of a church where a scheduled drag queen story hour for children was being held. the organizers made a last-minute decision to council the event fearing violence. dragged events in particular have become prime targets for the far-right. the group glad has so far documented 124 incidents of

lgbtq+ protests and threats targeting drag abounds. much of the anti lgbtq plus rhetoric has been fueled by christian nationalists affecting's by the like the heritage foundation which are provided concerted lawmakers across the country with blueprints for anti-trans legislation. the journalist, omar jones says that these groups operate as middle ground between far-right internet forms pushing conspiracy theories and conservative legislatures. writing in newsweek, she says quote, i and my team of journalists have documented how quarantine campaign of right-wing politicians, hate groups, think tanks, christian nationalists billionaires, have created an ecosystem to spawn hundreds of anti-trans bills and to create a culture of fear. this effort to do humanize trans people pick up by anti-trans figures lake matt walls, create conditions for -- terrorism like we saw club q. amari jones joins me now. she's an emmy award and peabody award-winning junior journalist. founder and ceo of trans last

media, and chair of the trans -- law center. great to see you, again thank you for being with. us >> thank you so much having me. >> i am sorry, we never have you on for a good reason, unfortunately. it's always stuff like this. but there is something edo unded about this. there has always been anti antie and demagoguery in this country. but the research you are indicating it tells us a different story. that it is highly orchestrated and it seems to be done with some sort of political motivation behind it. it is not just plain old prejudice which would be bad. there is something else to this. >> no, i think that's. right what do you have me on virtual reason. but i think you are. right i think there are two motivations that we have to understand they're operating simultaneously. the first is that for the groups that come prize what we call the anti-trans hate machine, they want to see trans people out of public life because it is part of their

vision for creating a world where christ can return to america. and if you are not a part of this world, then it doesn't like something that you're familiar with. but for the amateurs orthodoxy. the second part is, they have done a lot of research specifically focus grouped research and understand that, for a lot of people in the middle of the united states, a soft spot in political argument is this intersection of what i will call soft transphobia and discomfort with the idea of young people. and so. like as they say, you punch in the bruises. that is you say you hit in the weak spots. one of the week spouts that they understand is a part of again to get political control is to make this argument about trans youth. understanding that that can be weaponized. and so that is why there is this hyper focused on young people. it is a part of this

essentially check a long plan that they have to do this. so we can trace where these both come from. we know that those targeting trans athletes come from the alliance of defending freedom that is based out of arizona. we know that the bills that specifically target trans medical care, equal access for trans teens or what people goal gender or affirming care, comes from the family research council. and both of those groups have been designated by the southern poverty law center state groups. so this is not an accident. we need to start treating this argument as if it is a good faith argument about what is in the that's interest of trans youth. because if you talk about you talk to trans youth and their parents of the people who actually care for them, there it is a totally different. story >> so this is really interesting. in a few minutes we are going to do my book club, and it is the same thing. there's an argument that it is a good faith argument. it's parents who are worried about their kids turning queer,

or black. it's not. these are funded arguments by groups. and that is one thing to accept that it is a funded political operation, but in the case of trans people and queer people, it is leading to violence and up and it is creating an intersection between anti-gay, anti-trans people and hate groups that are doing other things. >> that is. right as a matter fact, the southern poverty law center says it one of the most under reported stories of the fact that, the tremendous growth of how hate groups in the united states is actually fueled by those that are focused on gender identity, and also lgbtq issues. so what you have laid out is exactly right. we have to remember that many of these groups are anti-trans, including the ones that i named in the heritage foundation, and many others we had 20 more minutes we go through them all. is the fact that many of them have learned and tested these tactics in the antiabortion movement. and in that movement what we have seen is that they

understand that there is a political wing that these politically acceptable or seemingly acceptable groups, and there's always an armed wing. and that the armed wing in the political wing say that they don't have anything to do with each other, but we know that they are deeply connected. and january six showed us that, and the same groups that are at the heart of january 6th in both the political wing and the armed wing of this movement are also at the heart of the anti-trans movement. >> amari, we do have a lot more to talk about on this topic and i think you do is take the time just got it with. us let's continue the conversation. amari jones is the founder and ceo of trans last media and the chair of the trans law center. still ahead, it's the meeting of the velshi banned book club featuring extremely latin incredibly close. we will speak to the author, jenner jonathan sovereign fuller on the banning up this book. as well as the emotional cultural tone of the 9/11 attacks. don't miss it. attacks. don't miss it. don't miss it.

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ohh!!! you are down to your last life. oh no. the legend tells of a wishing star. that star will get me my lives back. the wishing star is in the dark forest. 1, 2, after you. wait, what? dog, still alive? let's go find out. we have a lot more velshi coming. up before, that i mentioned that our show tomorrow shaping up to be a special sunday in ways than one. for starters, the house january six committee is holding a rare weekend meeting reportedly to finish up the final report and discuss whether to report criminal referrals to the justice department, potentially the former president and his anti-democratic. millions for all of, that an inside look on a donald trump psyche is this all unfolds i'm joined by two who know it

intimately. michael conan and mary trump 2021 on the show. next, the bestselling novel extremely latin incredibly close grapples with included with the emotional complexity brief as well as the ever shifting family dynamic, all through the eyes of nine roadway. why was banned? because of so-called lewd passages. who even says that? we are going to talk about it on the other side of a break in today's meeting of velshi banned book club. today's meeting of velsh banned book club banned book club that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's one that'll really take you back. it's customized home insurance from liberty mutual!!! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ this holiday master your kitchen with wayfair. ♪ ♪ keep it fresh with colorful cookware. whip up holiday treats with ease. slice and dice with the best of them. and with wayfair, you can express yourself. ♪ ♪

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september 11th act terraced tack, nine-year-old oscar discovers an avila marked black among his father's belongings. inside, there is a key to what appears to be a safety deposit box. from there, often begins a journey across all five boroughs of new york city to find out whom the key belongs to and what it opens. that is the plot of today's velshi banned book club feature, extremely loud and incredibly close. but at its core, this is a story about grief. grief of two different types.

the singular all encompassing abandonment that only the death of a parent can create, and the shared bewildering cataclysm that wasn't continues to be 9/11. oscars mourning the loss of his dad, and the gaping hole in his city. his home. for oscar, in the united states as a whole, it meant the loss of innocence, shouting of, safety visual reminder of mortality. extremely loudoun incredibly close has been targeted for book bans handle times since its publication in 2005. most often because of its quote, lewd or offensive material. in 2015, the book was removed from the honors english commune curriculum at my tune haskell and illinois for those reasons exactly. several parents complained about a quote, vulgar passage about midway through the book. the passage, which does reference sexual acts, culminates with these two lines, i know a lot about birds and bees but i don't know very much about that birds and the bees. everything i do know i had to teach myself on the internet

because i don't have to ask anyone. there is an irony to this quote. to ban extremely loudoun incredibly close or any book in order to shield high school aged students from so-called inappropriate material when they are holding the internet in the palm of their hands, is nothing short of absurd. here on the velshi banned book club, we >> -- the littering cultural necessity of exploring gender identity and sexuality in literature, again and again and again. but that is not the argument that i'm going to make today because those teams are not central to today's future book. they are not even the secondary or church wary themes of this book. the reality is, this book banning has everything to do with control and nothing to do generally speaking with the content of the literature. extremely loudoun incredibly close is many things. among them, objectively appropriate for its targeted age group of 14 and older. thought-provoking, fodder for serious conversation. so let's have. one i am thrilled to be joined by jonathan saffron forward, the award winning author of

many books, including the new york times bestseller extremely loudoun incredibly close. and today's feature of the velshi banned book club. jonathan, it's good to have you on the show. we've been looking forward to this for sometime. thanks for being with us. >> is nicely with you. again will have to talk quickly because they're holding up the world cup game until this conversation ends. >> yes, we will do. that so let's dispense with the idea that this book is pulled out of curriculum in some cases because of what just seems to be sort of a passing reference to sexuality that every 14 year old would nowhere understand. does that surprise you that someone misses everything you're trying to do in this book and focuses on a passage that is not central to your theme? >> to be honest when i heard of the book was banned i couldn't, i genuinely couldn't imagine why. extremely vulgar besides being -- is probably the nicest thing anyone has said about me in the past year or so. it's a ridiculous overstatement

for what is in this book we especially given. the context, as you highlighted of the internet of the culture that we live in. is the notion that not all literature is appropriate for nadal readers true, i think that is true. i think that publishing houses curates, bookstores cure rate, parents cure right. my most recent novel, probably could be fairly described as extremely vulgar. and i wouldn't have it on my kids show fiat. and at a certain point i would allow them to rita. so i think there is a danger and oversimplifying this conversation. what is necessary is that it be in a conversation. that we have more people coming from the right places, with the best intentions curating on behalf of young people. and what we have instead are activist groups going over the

heads of librarians who are american heroes and who are trained to have a good eye for what is going to help expand the minds and hearts of young readers. >> when we hear from years what we have all of our authors. when they are books that deal with critical subject matter, it is not appropriate for everybody at all times. but importantly 9/11 was not something that we would have liked to carry that out of our lives as well, but we can't. it happened. and people died. and when the most famous and perhaps controversial of the and unusual elements of the book. i don't give away to people haven't read, it comes at the end the book. it is a 14 page backward flip book with a man jumping from one of the towers. and because the reader sees the man floating up towards the top of the building. why did you include that? >> what is the moment of a kind of falls redemption. there is no.

timely goes tiktok, it never goes to top tech. but in our imaginations, and this is what is bittersweet about imaginations, we have the power to envision things differently. and at the heart of this book is this boy oscar who has a hyper active imagination. which, both enables him to you to some extent transcend his environment or to seem to transcend his environment. but ultimately, as we all do you have to confront reality. so that is probably the most controversial part of the book. that series of images. that is some of the most viewed images and all of human history. september 11th was the most viewed, most witnessed event in all of human history. part of what made it so dramatic was just how strong the of a visual component to tad. unlike, say subway bombings

that have happened since underground, this one was in the open air. it was a perfectly clear day and there was more or less an unlimited amount of camera footage once the event that started. and so, one truth of the experience is that it is something that we saw with our eyes, and we took it interrupts your hearts arise. and i wanted to reflect that in the book. but the notion that children have been exposed to those images in other contacts is as ridiculous as the notion that they haven't been exposed to human sexuality another contacts. >> you know, on the 20th anniversary last around 11 then your times but critics published an article that was entitled, grant war and and dividends. literature since the towers fell. in which they wrote in part, writers are still metabolizing 9/11 and it's aftershocks. they will do so for decades. and i believe that should be true. except your book, extremely loudoun incredibly close was published in april of 2005,

four and a half years after the attacks. what would you do differently if, now the more time has passed? is there a different story you'd tell or it would you tell the story a different way today? >> that is a complicated question because the world has changed and i have changed. the circumstances of my life has changed. we all think about terrorism in different ways. we think about new york city in different ways. i have lived here now for more than 20 years. the point is not to create definitive versions, the point is to metabolize. that is what literature does. and frankly, that is also with the conversations about temperature should be doing. we live in an incredibly problematic, scary, oftentimes tragic, oftentimes really beautiful world. it is not obvious what the meaning of events are. it is very rare that the meeting of events are obvious to us. it is very rare that our feelings about events are and

nuanced or uncomplicated or clear to us. and so, we rely on being in conversation with others. sometimes those conversations happened around the dinner table. sometimes they happen between a writer and a reader. we need for our conversation about literature and what is appropriate to be culturally metabolized. to short circuit the process of figuring out what is appropriate because the top. about a cannot be made by activist groups, and it can't be made by single individuals. as we are seeing now with twitter. we need a broad and informed conversation that is coming from a place of wanting to defend the interests of expanding mindset expanding hearts. >> why did you write this book through the lens of nine-year-old oscars? why do they child? >> i don't know that i did choose the child. it sounds a little bit cory or

precious. but the truth of, the poet w h adams that i look at what our by top and see what i think. i think there is a misunderstanding about writers that we have these ideas that we want to share or we have stories that we need to tell or voices that we have found that are sometime how burning up inside of us in the ventilation. for me, i have not a lot of anything, to be honest. i don't walk around with a really active interior monologue. i don't have characters living inside of me. to be honest, i don't even have a lot of ideas except for when i create a context for ideas and create a context for thoughts and ideas to, not only express themselves, but to grow in the first place. and it is one of the reasons i really think everybody should try writing. the world doesn't necessarily need more published novels, but the world insulin writers. one of the wonderful wonderful gifts of being a writer is i have these daily contexts for

trying to figure out what i'm thinking about in the first place. we walk around with all sorts of ideas about who we are, when we think we think, when we think we feel. and have a reflection given back to you or election of your own creation can sometimes be really revolutionary. and i have never written a book that i intended to rage. and i have never not been surprised by the contents of my head and heart. >> what a great way to end. that the world doesn't necessarily need more publish books, but it meets needs more writing and writers. thank you, jonathan. thanks for joining us today. jonathan saffron for is the author of extremely loud an incredibly close. thanks for watching. getting back here tomorrow morning eight to 10 am eastern on velshi. and over, get velshi is available as a podcast. you can listen to the entire show on the go anytime. subscribe listen for free anytime where we get. podcasting right where you, are msnbc reports begins after a quick break. a quick break. quick break. d... leon the second...

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over the next two hours, including the death of the american journalist, grant wahl, at the qatar world cup. the sports writer died friday in qatar when coverage argentina netherlands match. we'll have a rifle port from doha in the moment. we're going to serve the latest on the former