that is all the time i have for today, i'm lisa moderna's, also you tomorrow for more american voices. >> this is the katie phang show, live from miami, florida. we've got lots of news to cover, and lots of questions to

answer. let's get started. a big day on capitol hill. the january six committee just hours away from making a decision on sending criminal referrals to the justice department. everyone is wondering, who's on that list? plus, in the wake of kyrsten sinema's decision to quit the democratic party, old footage reemerging of her bashing a top democrat for doing exactly what she's doing. so, what changed? later, we're digging deep into the idaho mystery murders with the help of a former fbi profiler. he's nearly a month into the investigation, and what kind of person he thinks is behind the brutal killings. all of that and more is coming up. had a good sunday morning to you, i'm katie fang. thanks for starting your sunday with us. you know we're exactly two

weeks away from christmas, and one week from the start of hanukkah. as the end of the year approaches, so does the end of the house select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection. right now, they're working on their final written report and deciding whether to hold a final public hearing. committee chair, benny thompson, says they'll be meeting this afternoon, and he expects that at that meeting, they're going to make a decision about who will be on the list for criminal referrals. nbc news congressional correspondent, julie tsirkin, is live in washington for us this morning. julie, good morning. what do you share with us about what you've heard? >> good morning, katie. this is a committee that is wrapping up over a year long worth of work. they are now in their final weeks, as you mentioned, in today they'll meet again virtually. i should know they've been meeting or talking nearly every day, particularly as they get sent to the closing wire of expiration day on the committee. next congress, of, course house republicans in control will be sure to make that committee

dissolve. they are fully aware of the time taking. look, today's meeting is important because a smitty thompson laid out to us earlier this week, he expects the meeting in which they will decide, officially, if they will make criminal referrals. more importantly, who they will refer. top of mind for them is former president trump as he has been their entire mastication. remember, they said it with the goal of uncovering what happened on january six, what led to the violence, and to, most importantly, whether former president trump had any in fluent since say what he knew, just how closely he may have been involved. another thing i want you to remind our viewers of is the committee has already subpoenaed members of congress in the past as well. including kenny mccarthy, the republican leader, who is in a fight for his life, his political career, for the speakership gavel. they have a decision to make, whether they want to essentially punish those members who defy their subpoenas knowing full well the

next congress republicans could go and essentially retaliates. we heard adam schiff talking about that just this week. take a listen to one prominent house democrat who actually was just elected as part of leadership. you will be the highest ranking asian american and democratic house leadership. take a listen to what he said yesterday. >> i don't have access to that evidence, but looking at the reporting, it's very clear that there was a conspiracy to get fake electors appointed to overturn, the -- that is highly illegal. you cannot do that. it would not surprise me that if people involved will get criminal referrals. as far as i can, tell the people involved donald trump, as well as some of his top level associates. >> the, katie, it's important to know the committee has been grappling with the decision on whether to make these criminal referrals for a long time now. last month, the department of justice finally appointing a special prosecutor. we know that publicly the

committee members have been frustrated with how slowly the department of justice has been moving, but you know better than most around here, in this town, these criminal referrals don't really have much weight themselves. more so a messaging tool, and the committee's final remark in these closing weeks. >> julie tsirkin, i actually just want to take a second and say congratulations to you, my, friend of being named and pc news new's congressional correspondents. you get to join us in the mornings. you're live in washington for us today, i appreciate. thanks for being there. >> thank you. >> here's what i want to know. if the doj is already conducting its own investigation into january 6th, what's the significance of any possible criminal referrals from this house select committee? later in the show i'll put that exact question to former assistant united states attorney, kim whaley. so, sadly, many questions remain unanswered this morning following the death of soccer journalist grand wall on friday while he was covering the world cup in qatar. tributes are pouring in as

warner's express their grief and shock at the loss of an icon who turned just 49 on wednesday. white house press secretary, curry jean-pierre, saying, in part, quote wall was an inspiration to many. our thoughts are with his wife, doctor celine gounder, and all those who loved. msnbc's news correspondent has more. >> [inaudible] i'm a former prosecutor, and i don't have access to the actual evidence, but looking at the core dane, it's very clear that there was a conspiracy to get fake electors appointed to overturn the will of the people in multiple states. that is highly illegal. you cannot do that. it would not surprise me that if people involved [inaudible]

we obviously have a little bit of technical difficulties this morning, but moving on. as far as the soccer that's going on at the world cup in qatar, a history making game has everyone talking this morning. and upset ignited celebration for fans around the world. morocco defeated portugal, a team ranked in the global top ten that includes superstar, cristiano vernal dough. does the first time a world cup history that an african nation advance to the semifinals. huge crowds of moroccan fans filled the streets to celebrate from doha tamara cash, and from london to new york city. morocco will take on defending world cup champion, france, and the semifinals on wednesday. argentina and croatia will face off in the other semifinal on tuesday. did you know that today marks 50 years since the apollo 17 landed on the moon? the two astronauts on that

mission where the last human beings to walk on the moon. now, five decades later to the day, we're marking another lunar mission. nasa's artemis 1 spacecraft spent 25 days in space, in today, part of it comes home. you can expect a fiery re-entry into the atmosphere with the uncrewed orion capsule splashes down in the pacific ocean hours from now off the coast of bahama californian in mexico. nbc's -- is live at the board for us this morning. lindsey, good boardwalk. as with the flight path, and what could be cake speck today. >> good morning. good to be with you. we saw one of those incredible images that o'brien captured. we're going to show you more of them in a second. first, let's talk about all of the tests that orion is undergoing. the first test was the test of the sls system, the launch system. i believe we have video of the launch. i was there kennedy space center for this. you can feel the difference in

the energy was palpable. everyone knew that we were witnessing history, and something special. this is nasa's most powerful rocket ever built. it hurled o'brien into space. once a rhyme is on the trajectory, the core stage, the boosters dropped off. then oh ryan cruise -- about a four-day cruise. oh ryan was really close to the moon, and then it went into distant retrograde. what more than 40,000 miles past the far side of the moon. look at some of these images that we got. these are some images from oh ryan. you can see the crescent earth, you could see the crescent moon. after destined retrograde, and this is really testing the vehicle for deep space, this was farther in space and entyvio coalville tougher -- then o'brien went close to the moon, about 79 miles away from the moon. they use the moons gravity as a slingshot, called the lunar gravity assessed, to get o'brien back on a trajectory for earth. now that is where o'brien is

now. i believe we have some images we can show you have some naval teams practicing, because essentially, all right when is flash off the coast of mexico, as you mentioned. this is some of the war herschel said the navy did on a practice capsule. one so ryan slush is down,, remember ryan is going to be going 24 -- miles an hour, hurtling towards the earth. it's going to be a huge test for those shields to withstand -- half as hot as the temperature as the sun. once that successful splash down occurs, they're going to retrieve ads. they'll take several hours now. nasa scientists are going above water and below water image a, in testing weekends, checking those thermal tiles that not only protect or ryan from the cold in the deep space, but again, those really hot temperatures and reentering earth. that orion is going to board on to the waldeck of the uss portland. katie, so much to be watching

for. the splash down is scheduled for around 12:30 p nine eastern. we'll be covering it for you here at msnbc, and beyond, that we're looking at artemis, to a human mission, and artemis 3 a bentley lending his back on the. back to you. >> unbelievably exciting. thanks, lindsey for walking us through all of that this morning. coming up in the show, how will democrats handle kyrsten sinema's exit from the party? well there is a precedent for, at that involves the late harry reid turned independent during the iraq war. can you guess who that was? senator-elect and congressman, peter, wells will join me next to talk about how democrats can keep kristen sinema on their side. plus, nearly one month after the tragic murders of four college students in idaho, the killer still out there. i'll talk to a former fbi profiler about what kinds of suspects investigators might be looking for. looking for.

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sinema announced that she was leaving the democratic party, many of her progressive critics wasted no time unloading. senate majority -- praised her as a good at effective senator. he said that she could keep all of her coveted committee assignments. so, what praise? so here it shows that politics is a game of math. democrats need to vote to pass as much as president biden's agenda as possible. and trying to keep her within the democratic fold, schumer appears to be following the approach of his predecessor, the late senate majority leader, harry reid. back in 2006, reed chose to cut senator joseph liebermann some slack after he left the democratic party and became an independent. this was largely over his support for the iraq war. here is the twists, guess who wasn't a fan of democrats

placating joe lieberman? watch. >> meanwhile the senate's, we no longer have 60 votes. some would argue we never had 60, because one of the most joseph lederman. what that means is that the democrats can stop moscow tying to joe lieberman and instead seek other avenues. >> i guess there were tapes. yes, that was kirsten sinema in 2003, before she became a united states senator. protesting joe lieberman at a campaign event that he was holding to court republicans in calling out democrats for working with liebermann. of course, now sinema has declared herself as an independent, likely -- telling political that she, quote, never really fed into a box of any political party. so, hypocrisy aside, how did democrats keep sinema on their side? i have an excellent person to ask. congressman peter wells of vermont was just elected to the

united states senate, and has worked closely with one of now three independents and the u.s. senate, bernie sanders of vermont. senator alexei, walsh joins me. congratulations, first and foremost, to you on your win. senator, alexei will grooves senator schumer's a -- to allow her to keep her committee assignments, in a pretty good bonds, and support her declaration to not be an independent? >> i do support senator schumer's approach. bottom line here is that arizona picks their senators, and senator schumer works with the senators that are elected by people in all of the states. of course, senator sinema's decision is not going to affect the composition of the senate. she's got an eye after her name, but she is still going to be part of what will be an effective working majority for the senate. every issue that comes up, as in the pass, schumer and all of us are going to have to work with senator sinema to try to

get her vote. i don't see this is having an impact on the functioning of the senate, or the democratic control of the senate. i do see that, as in the past, it will always be a challenge to get senator sinema's vote. >> you know, senator-elect, you are coming -- -- for montes with one of the most famous independent senators. cinnamon sanders had very different politics. what's the strategy, and you are, petty and behind working with an independent to get their vote. you just mentioned right now, and some, white maybe it's going to be a lot of the same as before. is there some secret sauce to this idea of being able to work with independents to get things done? >> you know, i don't think it's any different working with an independent, whether it's bernie or angus king, or senator sinema. they've got a particular point of view, a constituency, and all of us have to do when we're trying to persuade a senator to join us in what we think is the right approach, is to persuade him as best we can on the merits. that's simply not going to

change. there is going to be an impact in arizona in the next senate race, so we don't know what that will be. i think the day-to-day functioning of the u.s. senate, senator schumer, is taking the right approach. i have confidence that it will be able to be a continuing effective majority, especially with the victory in georgia. >> you know, i want to turn to the house where you have served for nearly 16 years. as you're well aware, and as we've actually discussed on our show, the gop is plotting a campaign of revenge probes in their capacity as house majority. i think it's the worst kept secret in d.c., because frankly, it's not a secret. they've told everyone that's what they're planning on doing. washington post is now reporting that hunter biden's legal team is mounting an aggressive strategy to push back against republican investigations into his business dealings, for example. you know i have to ask you, is this kind of counteroffensive a good idea politically, or, is there a danger that it could distract from the democrats

agenda? >> well, hunter biden, if he's attacked, they'll have to make some decisions. the decisions the republican majority has to make is do they want to approach their responsibility to govern, or do they want to approach it as if they want to burn the house down. you know, i for the life of me don't understand what ultimately is going to be beneficial to everyday american people who are struggling with inflation, who are struggling with the cost of groceries, who want to have climate change addressed if we could get to the bottom of hunter biden. that's before the republicans make a decision about who their leader is. it's a pretty astonishing thing, that kevin mccarthy's leadership is threatened even though he is the person that raised a half a billion dollars in his responsible for and many cases that there are folks part of the republican majority. a big decision for the republicans governing, interviewed in the house, down and all of these investigations,

impeachments, and probes, our way of looking backwards not forwards. >> your response, sir, is the perfect segue to my next question. house republican leader, kenyan mccarthy, as you, noted struggling to secure 218 votes that he's going to need to become speaker of the house. late last, week seven far-right republicans released a letter outlining their demands for gop leadership after an additional five house republicans that they won't vote for kevin mccarthy. in the midst of all of us, now andy biggs has announced that he will also throw his name into the ring. i'm going to ask you to look into that cristobal, senator -elect. will kevin mccarthy become the next speaker of the house? or, do you see maybe a dark horse compromise candidates, maybe coming up. >> my guess is that kevin mccarthy will be speaker. my question is at what price will he have to pay to that freedom caucus, the extreme end of the party, to be elected speaker. if he pays a price that's too

high, he essentially is going to disempower, he's going to feeble his leadership from the beginning. the group that you are citing actually does have the blocking power, and will the other republicans caved to them and relinquish to their demands? that will make it impossible for kevin mccarthy or any speaker,, frankly to govern. you know, goodbye kevin mccarthy, welcome the next kevin mccarthy. so, again, this is the fundamental existential question for the republicans. if they can't come together with the governing strategy, it's going to be two years of chaos whoever the speaker's. >> maybe they shed have a plan, which is to work in a bipartisan way. with the democrats, to get things done for america. >> well, that's always good. we got a lot done this past year, including with the 50/50 senate. i think the bipartisan approach,

where we're trying to solve problems that are as existential and real in my district as they are in the republican district. tele-health, broadband, all of these things are affecting all americans. we're working together to help solve them. i agree with you on that. >> senator, -elect peter walsh. it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. we are looking forward to seeing what you have going on when you join the united states senate. thank you again. >> thank you. >> coming up, we are close to the final report from the january six committee, and possible criminal referrals. key decision is set to be made during that meeting today could be how is that going to occur, our number one. who is it going to be? number three, who cut it affect the departed justices investigation. that's next. that's next. ho all bank differently with chase. leon's saving up for his first set of wheels... nice try. really? this leon's paying for his paint job on the spot...

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decisions connected to the january six committee. hours from now, chairman -- says the group plans to meets, and decide who to criminally referred to the department of justice at a key meeting. they will also make big decisions about their final report and how they plan to present debts. keep in mind, the department of justice is already conducting its own separate january six investigation. here is what thompson said been a reporter asked if they're criminal referrals were necessary for the doj to finish its work. >> oh, absolutely not. as you, know the department of justice had its best significant interest on getting as much of our work product as we could share with them. we still plan to share as much of that work with them as possible. you think you can see more cooperation on behalf of our committee, with a department of justice, because of their initial request.

>> criminal referrals have been in the spotlight for months now, but if they happen, are they mostly symbolic? here to talk about all of this is kim whaley, she is currently a professor at american university law school. she is also a former assistant attorney who worked on the whitewater investigation. kim, it's good to see this morning. considering the big picture that i just laid out for our viewers, what have you seen as the significance of any criminal referrals that 16 committee makes the doj? >> katie, a do you think it's symbolic, but a little more than that, and that the idea of indicting a sitting president is so massive constitutionally. psychologically as well. i think putting all of this out in writing, and so that people can read a, talk about it, and can warm up to the concept that something like that might be necessary given the horrors of january six, and the implications for democracy moving forward.

>> it's almost like you kind of have to prop them, let the marinate a little bit, then be in the american public, before they actually see it indictment from doj. to that point, who do you see as the most likely candidates to get a criminal referral? there's been some reporting out there, we see mark meadows's name, rudy giuliani, for example, donald trump as well. do you think there's any potential surprise names that could be on that referral list? >> what we already know from david carter, a federal judge in california, that from his perspective, john eastman, and donald trump, together likely committed crimes. i would add him to the list. of course he pled the fifth many times, as dared the other member of the department of justice that would likely be identified in the indictments who tried to get the, to inject himself into the hierarchy, so that doj could be used as a

weapon in the january six committee. this was mentioned, rudy giuliani, and others. again, the key here is that people can hear the story, and i really think the january six committee hearings did that to some degree. now though jack smith is on board, we're just going to have to see. katie, i think it's important that merrick garland made clear that jack smith's only jurisdiction here is the top brass. that all of the people that were on the ground, the 900 plus that have already been embroiled in the criminal justice system, they are stayed with a local u.s. attorney's office here in washington d.c.. those investigations and prosecutions are not going to jack smith. so we have this criminal referral, potentially, but we have this new person on board that i don't think would come back from the hague just to wrap things up quietly and file a report internally. as you know, if it's grown jury material, which is what doj deals with, it can't be made

public unless that stump through an actual trial, or court orders later. >> let's shift gears for a second, cam, and let's move to arizona. this is where defeated republican candidates, kari lake, has filed a 70-page lawsuits. although you and i as lawyers know that it's not always the quantity of, and it's the quality of the claims, right? she filed a lawsuit on friday. basically she asks for either a redo election, and maricopa county, or a court order to declare her the winner of that race. the lawsuit contains many lies about the election, which was won by democrat katie hobbs. when donald trump's tried something similar after losing in 2020, again, he lost in court dozens of times. the system held. is this kari lake trying the same exact strategy of legally throwing things against the wall to see what eventually sticks? >> absolutely. kari lake actually filed a lawsuit in federal court prior to the election trying to get

the process declared illegal. not only did she lose that bed, that other federal lawsuit, this isn't a, quote her lawyers were saying -- under rule 11 for filing frivolous, factually baseless claims. this was to challenge the process for counting votes in advance of this litigation. she's already not only lost similar claims, but there have been sanctions for similar claims. this is a long 70-page. saying lots of people worked on, but it raises claims like the republican party's constitutional rights were violated. political parties do not have constitutional rights. something as basic as that, from a legal perspective is just the back of the hand. as you indicated, katie, i think people, and i teach my law students this every year, just because something vile someday doesn't mean there's any merit to it whatsoever. it could be literally completes gobbledegook garbage. it requires, and i'm not saying

there's no merit to this whatsoever, but a five-year-old could file something in and it would still require someone to dismiss it. i think, as you also, now there are legal basis for dismissing something, and then there is something that would have to get discovery. my guess is that best-case scenario is maybe there is some data and they're that they say, well, we need some factive element before the court can dismiss that. overall, this is a political stunt. so far, politically, it hasn't had the kind of staying power, you know, i'm glad they say that donald trump did post-2020. >> kim whaley, i'm glad that you are helping shape some future legal minds by letting them know the right way to practice law. cam, thank you so much for joining us this morning. i appreciate you being here. and coming up, the a new lead amid more questions and the idaho murder mystery. no suspect names nearly a month

after the killings. the community is on edge, and searching for answers, including, in what kind of person could commit such a horrific crime? a former fbi profiler joins me to explain what police are looking for next. looking for next to help keep others from harm. at pfizer, we're driven by this impulse. we've reached hundreds of millions of lives with our covid-19 response. and we keep innovating. whatever comes next, we will respond fiercely. like family. ♪ get refunds.com powered by innovation refunds can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars

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i am puss in boots. the legend will never die. ohh!!! you are down to your last life. oh no. the legend tells of a wishing star. that star will get me my lives back. the wishing star is in the dark forest. 1, 2, after you. wait, what? dog, still alive? let's go find out. it's been nearly a month since a small idaho community was robbed by the devastating homicide of four university of idaho students.

since then, there have been more questions than answers. yesterday, students and faculty held a moment of silence during the universities commencement ceremony amid heightened security. remembering these four young souls who were discovered stabbed to death in their beds in an off campus rental house the morning of november 13th. officials are keeping information about potential suspects or motives close to the chest to protect the integrity of the investigation. they are also seeking tips about a white car found near the site of the murder. it looks something similar to this generic photo that law enforcement released. here is moscow white house chief of missed least on where things stand in the investigation. >> we are working steady on the investigations still. we're still receiving tips, we're still receiving items from back and the lab. there are is so lot of -- talking to a lot of people.

>> this story has gripped the nation with concerned citizens and true crime junkies alike wondering, where will there be a break in the case? one of the big questions here isn't just about who did it, but what kind of person could have done this. criminal profilers have been weighing in with educated guesses on just that, including former fbi profiler, greg mccrary, who joins me now at the bureau. it was his job to construct behavioral profiles of violence, unknown offenders. great, good morning. thanks for being here on the show. you have been warning not to over interpret the little known details of the murders. how would you even begin to profile someone in a case like this? what are some of your theories and what kind of person authority should be looking for? >> right. we have to be careful. as you said, and as i said previously, to be careful not to over and her bed specific data points. for example, one victim

receives more stab wounds in the other. well, there is some speculation that that may mean that victim was particularly targeted, or specifically targeted. that's one hypothesis. we have to keep multiple competing hypotheses in place, so we don't and i'm going down the wrong track on this thing. when i'm talking about, is, yes that's one possibility, that that individual could have been specifically targeted, but the other possibility, and i've had this in other cases i've worked where there have been, actually, multiple stabbings in the same households, with multiple murders, the individual that received the most stab wounds is the one who resisted the most. that resistance and rage v offenders. this wasn't a targeted victim, they didn't come there to kill that person specifically. they ended up inflicting more stab wounds because of the amount of resistance that had underage the offender, and that is what happened in the long

run. we had to be careful not to over interpret specific data points as they come up. >> greg, does the fact that it is just taking so long tee even point to a person of interest, and of course forgetting that law enforcement has a job that has to do, and there's always a reason behind why they're not releasing publicly more formation, does that speak to who, or maybe more than one person, in terms of the suspect or suspects in this case? the fact that it's been more than a month now since those killings? >> right. it's certainly frustrating to everyone, certainly to the families and everyone even remotely looking at the case. where investigations go wrong as when they become suspects rather than evidence driven. we met the suspected emerge from the evidence. when we look at investigative failures, convictions, what we see typically happening is they

become suspect driven first, and then they began to back felon, try to find data that proves that this person dead at. and, fact it should be other way. at this point, i will commend the investigators for not kbnz the pressure and begin chasing specific suspects, or naming suspects, without any evidence to back them up. what i would say, and from the public's point of view, what they should be, i think that they should be aware of is who may be involved. we're talking about paris and post offense behavior here. this is someone who may be adds a person, one of the victims, or, excuse, me the group in general. they may have voices before. this could be someone who wasn't invited to some of the parties that they had at the place, or was thrown out, or may have had and overture to one of the victims in some way.

they may have been angry with them, and spoken about that before. in post events, they may be again saying negative things about the victims, like they were idiots, for using derogatory terms, even profane terms to define them. they probably had a comedian, or they pissed off the wrong guy, he showed them. anyone voicing those sorts of opinions should be, this is league should be called. in what we see is an impediment to that is a lot of the people who hear that they go, oh, i know that guy, he's my friend, he's my brother, he's my cousin. he would never do anything like this. i'm not going to call it an. no, they need to call that end. they need to let the investigator sort that out. >> greg mccrary, thank you for lending your time to share with us you insight and analysis. we appreciate it. we know that you have a long and storied history with the

bureau, thanks so much for being here this morning. >> you are welcome. >> coming, of fringe legal theory that makes its way all the way to the united states supreme court. how one key case could impact future elections as legal expert sound the alarm about the threat to democracy. my interview with ali miss solved, justice correspondent for the nation, next. nation, next [coughing] hi, susan. honey. yeah. i respect that. but that cough looks pretty bad. try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love, plus the powerful cough relief you need. mind if i root through your trash? robitussin. the only brand with real honeyand elderberry. the eat fresh® refresh just won't stop! now, subway® is refreshing their catering with easy-order platters and lunchboxes perfect for any party. pool parties... tailgates... holiday parties... even retirement parties. man, i love parties. subway keeps refreshing and refreshing one bounty versus two of the leading ordinary brand one sheet of bounty absorbs more than two sheets of theirs man, i love parties.

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of the united states supreme court has legal expert sounding the alarm about threats to democracy. the case stems from north carolina supreme court striking down an election map that was heavily gerrymandered in favor of republicans. north carolina's republican lawmakers appealed, and now the highest court in the land will have the final say. the court and its conservative super majority heard arguments on wednesday. depending on how the justices

rule, partisan politicians, possibly even election deniers and your state house, could end up with guns -- over election results in your state. this week i spoke to elie nassau, the corresponding for the nation, about the more versus harbor case on my peacock show. i started by asking for an initial impressions on the oral arguments. take a listen. >> at oral arguments -- there were three conservative justices who were all in for the cockamamie chaos theory that is independence day legislatures. clarence thomas, who as you pointed, out his wife was pushing this theory and her general coup attempts after the 2020 election, she was on board, send leader was on board, and the nihilist, neil gorsuch, dak was completely on board including making some really rise supple arguments about the, and just wrong arguments about the history, and foundation, of this constitutional principle. but, that only going to three.

now i went into oral arguments assuming that brett kavanaugh would be part of the nihilist brand of the republican party because as a young lawyer, in 2000, and i'm dating myself here, that during bush v. gore, when independence day legislator theory got its first sort of judicial recognition in william run class concurrence to make george w. bush presidents, had brett kavanaugh was a lawyer for george w. bush 's team that pushed this theory. in fact, there is a clip that you can go find for brett kavanaugh talking to wolf blitzer on cnn, pushing independents legislative theory in 2000. yes, after oral arguments, kavanaugh discusses english independent legislator theory as used in bush v. gore from what's the north carolina republicans were pushing. it was a very thin slice of legal pie, he was trying to make a distinction between

statutory and constitutional interpretation. he seemed to suggest that north carolina supreme court still had some role to play in reviewing the actions of the state legislature, which was the surprise. moreover, the swing vote for this was always going to be amy coney barrett. the liberals do not agree with independence day legislative theory. obviously, and not -- justice roberts. he wants to give more power to judges, not take the power away. so amy coney barrett was always set out to be that fifth swing vote because she has no priors, like she has, unlike kevin, of she hasn't worked on this in the past. there is no cnn clip of her talking about this. she, as far as we, know isn't married to an insurrectionist. you know, plus one. and, again i'm not a theologian here, but it's a jesus has a firm position on independence day legislative theory. t is sort of in play.

a questions that oral argument suggested that she was really sort of wrestling with the idea, pointing out some of the clear logical inconsistencies in north carolina republicans arguments, and seen the dissatisfied with the responses that she was getting back for north carolina's lawyers. you have this ammunition case, you have to be careful with barrett. she has a history of doing this. of askeaton really smart, really probitive, really thoughtful questions at oral arguments, but then when the votes come in, siding with the most extreme, brain dead version of republican conservative logic possible. we saw that in dobbs, we've seen that in other cases this term. but she seemed to be legitimately in play. if she and brett kavanaugh are both in play, that could be the bulwark that stops this particular brand of republican ridiculousness from infecting the rest of america. >> you know, ali, your

explanation and analysis is the perfect setup for my next question. based on the questions, and this has been spectacular because we as americans get insight into the supreme court these days they're been able to listen to the oral arguments versus just reading a cold opinion later on down the road once it's been drafted and approved. based upon this hot bench with the questions that you heard, it seems that this nightmare scenario of a full-throated endorsement of the independent state legislative theory, thankfully, may not look like it'll happen. it looks like there might be some sort of compromise here. do you think there could be compromised opinion, and if, so what do you think it could look like? >> yes, so a very bad opinion that is still preserve the structure of american democracy would be something like the north carolina supreme court clearly has the right to review whether or not it's a redistricting map will fit within the north carolina state

constitution. in this particular case, the north carolina supreme court exceeded its bounds, or aired in their judgment, or whatever they want to say, to make sure that the republican maps go back into play. this is a, not just a conservative supreme court, but republican supreme court. they want republicans to win elections. you can see an opinion that gave the republicans what they want in terms of this map. doesn't give the independent state legislator the power to simply decide for themselves with votes in the legislature, everything about elections, including, for instance, what slate of electors get sent to washington after a presidential election. you can see them cutting the line just. so >> and we will be right back. ill be right back the dribbler, and the day-dreamer... the dribbler's getting hands-on practice

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phang show. i'll be back next. velshi is next. >> today on velshi, the january six committee is huddling this afternoon to discuss criminal referrals for donald trump and his allies. that's still might not be the most and medium blood school dy