far. they need to moderate their quest for profits through higher prices to match what is right, and what consumer demand actually expects of them. >> i wonder if it would work the other way? i wonder if there is a messaging opportunity from companies to be able to say, we are not increasing our profits at your expense right now. we know you are going through a tough time. we may have to pass on some increased costs. there may be company saying we will eat those increased costs. we aggregate people cannot make determinations on which company is doing it or isn't. i wonder if would be a neat marketing tool in 2023 to say, we're being fair to you. >> i'm surprised some communications strategist haven't suggested that. it might work. truthfully, i think that big corporations do not have a ton of credibility in the market right now. people have come to not trust them. as you mentioned earlier, there has been so many huge mergers

in so many big areas. even before the inflation spike, a lot of companies were aggressively raising prices because they have almost monopolistic dominance over their particular market. for example, if you have been paying for internet services in your home for the past ten years, you have watched the prices go up like crazy to the point where it's almost unaffordable for a lot of people. in the problem is that we are at a low point in terms of credibility. and there are things that the government could do to try to address some of this, including trying to address some of the monopoly problems that we have in the economy. and we can certainly hope that the government would take some of those steps. but ultimately, there is not a whole lot that could be done to force these companies to stop behaving this way. capitalists will do what capitalists will do. >> so the next time you hear about a big merger anything that you don't care, maybe do care that you have competition to go somewhere else free internet service earlier prices go up.

thanks as always, sheila great to see. you sheila is a former staff artist for new york. or the author of black, edge inside information, dirty money, and the quest to bring down the most wanted man on wall street. and michael cohen mary trump join the show next, with the january six committee holding a special sunday meeting later today. they will help us understand what is going through the former presidents mind as the prospect of a criminal referral looms. another hour of velshi begins right now. right now. >> good morning, it is sunday december, 11th and for those of you watching an hour, ago you may be fascinated that it has been changed. my, mistake it's been sunday all morning. but we begin this hour with a sense of urgency. there are just three hours to go into the historic house select committee on january six comes to a, close in the new era begins with a new gop led house has plans to investigate the very committee that is seeking to hold to account the people who put democracy on the

line almost two years ago. in a matter of, hours the committee is holding a special sunday virtual meeting, starting at one p.m. eastern, to continue working on its final report, which the chairman, benny thompson, says will be released under 20, first along with a quote, formal presentation. the committee also plans to discuss criminal referrals. jim thompson says that it's not a matter of if the committee will make the referrals, but how many. we should note that the panel has yet to reveal whom it is considering for sherman oak referrals, and not all comes as the twice impeached former president faces mounting legal trouble on several other fronts, including the ongoing investigation into the trove of classified documents, classified and otherwise documents that were discovered as mar-a-lago resort in florida. although perhaps unsurprisingly, that is not the only place the former president has squirrel the way americas classified documents. nbc news has learned that a team hired by trump has found at least two items marked classified in one of trump's storage units in west palm

beach, florida, which were handed over to the fbi after they were discovered. classified documents in a storage unit. what was that about hillary clinton's emails? the trump legal team has refused to make a sworn statement certifying that all classified documents have been returned, by the way, and a small victory for the former president, as a federal judge has refused to request to hold trump's team in contempt of court for failing to comply with a subpoena from may, demanding that they turned down any remaining classified documents. joining me now is a man who needs no introduction, but he will get one anyway, michael cohen is a former personal attorney from the president, and he's the host of the mea culpa podcasts, on which i just made in appearance, and he's the author of a book called revenge and disloyal. he has a very disaccord -- active twitter account, which if you follow, you will see he's having great difficulty with the self claiming victory on his account. michael, i don't want to sort that out, but i appreciate you taking some time away to join us this morning. you and i have the same

question here. if the list of things that donald trump has alleged to have done were half as long, or a tenth of as long, in a normal society, the republican party would jettison him and find someone else out of the. to have him on and yet they can't quit trump -- put him in prison for five years. the man is escaping every accountability that exists for you, me, all of our viewers, in this country. he seems to be operating outside of the law. i'm with you with 330 plus million people in america, are used still trying to tell me that a guy who's a little bit of a racist, seen evoke, homophobic, islamophobic antisemite is the best that the

gop can present as a nominee or as a president? it makes absolutely no sense to me at all. and i'm starting to see people walking away from him, but then the question is, what about that core support. those maggots that refused to step away, that are continuing to support him, into feed his coffers. >> that is the reason though. because there are other republicans, some of whom hold office, we actually think that they would be a better president donald trump would be, but they understand that they can't alienate that core, and donald trump seems to get that. even with fox abandoning cam, even with the new york post abandoning him, even with his own daughter saying, hey, i'm not sticking around for this other campaign, i have a camp family to raise. with all that happening, follow trump knows that he has control over a percentage of the republican party without whom someone else cannot win the presidency. >> and this is a real problem. this is a problem for the gop. maybe they lose this upcoming election, but they say their party. they need to do something

within which to isolate. and my belief is that he will have criminal prosecution. and i believe the january six committee will hold, him and he will be accountable for the mar-a-lago documents, plus all that. question for you as we go through all of that. what if hypothetically, there were more than just two or three documents that were turned over, and he decided that i'm going to keep those because they are really important. i'm going to go shove them someplace else. maybe that is the reason that no lawyer in his employment is willing to sign an affidavit to say that -- what do we get donald to sign that affidavit? what we have him a test under the penalties of perjury that there are no more documents. that way, if in fact there are more documents, and i suggest that they start searching every place the donald has been, now he becomes accountable and of course it would then be a criminal charge. >> you have actually implied that other people might decide these documents to. don junior and jarred, everywhere he's been. because who knows where

donald's soft. you have argued that he may use his presidential run as leverage to get away from some of this prosecution, and the fact that there might be other documents. or that he has copies of these documents. let's just remind our viewers of what we are talking about here. you're saying that thumb trump may be discharge for something and says, hold on, i've got stuff. i've got stuff i can get the north korea or iran or whatever. obviously that would be a crime if he said that. or, i'm running for president. you don't believe he's actually gone to run for president, but you believe he's using this as insulation? >> i do. august 31, not too far after i was on your show, i turned around and put out a tweet that says that they need to go, it's almost like where, waldo follow where donald has gone every single day. and those people, the ones that you have to speak to, you need to search those properties. but i believe, and i've been saying it all along, that is going to use those documents as leverage. you want to mess with, me you want to play with me, you want to indict me, this is how he thinks. like a mob boss. you want to come after me?

i have top secret documents to say hypothetically, the location of our new color silos. you really want that in the hands of mohammad bin salman, or wrong, or north korea, or any of other adversaries? i am willing to burn down the country because you are willing to burn me. that is how donald trump thinks. >> because a lot of people are thinking, and the way that we discussed sometimes, he's willing to burn down the republican party. he still substantially worse. >> much bigger than the gop. he will bring the whole country down, because the country elected not to reinstate him as president of the united states. and so his ego, that fragile ego of, his is so hurt that he's trying out to make up also. so let's tear at the constitution, let's go ahead, and let's read certainly as president. >> he said that by the way. and then he's put out a post out the next day saying that the media put out this big thing about me saying that i would turn out the constitution. he said it, he posted it on his own social media platform. >> well how dare you listen to

him. that is really what he's trying to say. don't listen to what i am saying, listen to what i'm thinking. and it is the same thought process but of course the classified documents. >> i thought they were declassified. >> but this thing is the same, which is why i say that we need to put the maniac back into the box. we need to turn around and we need to implore the gop, and other members of congress as part of the republican party, and i'm a democrat, so i believe any democrat, any democrat could beat donald trump. and i believe that he knows it. and that is why he is running scared right now. >> michael, good to see my friend, thank you, i know that your to get home we continue to clean your oven. good luck with that. michael cohen is the former personal attorney for donald trump. he's the host of the mea culpa cast and the author of the book's revenge and disloyal. we have more of this conversation right after the break. i'm joined by the former presidents niece, mary trump, for another insider perspective. plus, in order designed to ostensibly stop the spread of covid in the early days of the pandemic has become a de facto immigration policy at the

southern border. the biden administration is prepared to lift that order, and they are looking at a surge of migrants. breaking news, the united states has taken custody of a suspected bomb maker allegedly involved in the 1988 bombing of the pan am flight 103 over law curry, scotland. what we know about this fast developing story next. you are watching velshi on msnbc. moderate-to-severe eczema. it doesn't care if you have a date, a day off, or a double shift. make your move and get out in front of eczema

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to michael cohen about the myriad of legal cases facing donald trump and what might come of them. for more on how it's affecting the failed former president, i'm joined by mary prompt, she is the niece of donald trump, a psychologist by trade, a host of the mary show podcast, and the author of -- how my family never created the world's most dangerous man. mary, thank you for being here. there's a lot of people, including my viewers, who say, why do i care what donald trump

thinks? the reason we care is because what he thinks may determine whether he continues to run to president, how he campaigns, and what we've seen in recent weeks with donald trump as people desert him is a deeper sense of his grievance playing out. when he goes on tv or he does interviews, he doesn't now talk about politics, he talked about losing the 2020 election and how everybody else is treating him so badly. >> yes. well he doesn't really have any other choice. doesn't reon some level, he unds that he is losing control of parts of the party. not the whole party, of course, he has the base of his back pocket. but he is also never been a forward-looking person anyway. he is fueled by grievance. but i do think it is important to remember that another reason it is important to keep track of what donald trump's thinking, and how he is behaving, and the absence that he is taking, is to see what the republican

party as a whole does in relation to those things. in other words, the only reason why we are seeing this exodus away from him is because he has lost so much for the party. not because of what he is thinking, saying, and doing. >> that's an interesting point. because you heard michael cohen just discussing, why don't they just find somebody else, which would seem obvious mathematically given how many people there on america and how many people can run for president, and i'm neb would be conservative, but right, even then, even with some of the stuff donald trump does, it doesn't actually merit a full response of some republicans, who say that there's no space for antisemitism this party, but they don't say that there's no space for donald trump and his party. why won't they go there? >> because they can't. they have created this monster, and republicans have doing this forever. happened with the tea party, and not donald is just the latest incarnation of creating a monster that they think that they can control, and they end up getting controlled by the

monster, so to speak. and so they cannot abandon him wholesale because they need the base. they are tied to this white supremacist, antisemitic, anti-appropriate, massage artistic base that they have to continue to cater to. they can't say that out loud. so the walls around it, and i guess mitt romney is the only person who has been somewhat direct. he actually referred to donald as a republican in name only. but we can't let him get -- in this nonsense. he is the republican party, and he represents the republican party as much now as we did six years ago. >> let's talk a little bit about the distortions and how, in your expertise, in your experience, how that would be affecting. i'm sure, the fox news stuff is big, the new york post sort of ignoring him or deserting him is big, but the day that he announced he was running for president, his own daughter said that i'm sitting this one out. which is kind of amazing, because ivanka and jared were

very central to the trump presidency. and ivanka trump are saying, we have kids to raise, a family to raise, and i'm not involved in this. what is that doing to him. >> well i think it's really important to remember that on both sides of that equation, all of these relationships are transactional. and ivanka and jared have finally realize that they gave more by staying away from donald then they do by staying aligned with him. and if you think about how much since that makes, donald is definitely losing value in terms of the party, and in terms of politics generally. and ivanka and jarred are legitimately wealthy people apart from whatever donald is doing, and so they don't need him to the same degree they might have. and they probably understand on sullivan that sting so close leah lined with him for so long probably damage them, at least socially. and so it is the same with most

of donald's inner circle. there's always a transactional calculation being made, and a lot of people, again, i'm making the calculation that it just isn't worth it for them anymore. >> and we say not worth it for them, something that michael cohen always brings up is that donald trump and his inner circle, whatever that consist of anymore, likes to have leverage over people. so whether that is dirt, or negotiations, or whatever, does that play much of a role in why people won't go up against trump, or is it just that if donald trump comes at you, you just don't have the energy to withstand what he does? what is the thing that most motivates the people who should say the right thing, and do the right thing within the republican party who won't. >> i think it is pure politics. and this craven desire for power. if they can't have it at the top of the party, at least the want to be in the party that has power. they must know, first of all, there is nobody at the top of the republican party who has the charisma, although i hate

using that word, in relation to donald, but who has his charisma, who has this 40 or 50 year old myth having been built about him, who has much of the media in his pocket. they don't have those built in advantages. and they also know that if they do go up against him in the primary, for example, he will burn it all down. >> mary, thanks very much, good to see you as always. mary trump's niece of donald trump, the host of the mary show podcast, the author of the book too much, and never enough, how much family craig was most dangerous man. still ahead, a controversial trump era order to restrict immigration at the southern border is set to be lifted in the coming weeks. and the biden ministration is preparing for what they are expecting to be a surge of migrants. plus, we're following breaking news. the united states is taking custody of a suspected bomb maker allegedly involved in the deadliest terror attack ever. we will have an update on this high profile case when we come back.

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pandemic, but three years ago, the cdc under donald trump issued a controversial public health order known as title 42. officials said that it was necessary to help stop the spread of the novel coronavirus. but title 42 became de facto immigration policy. essentially, it closed off america's borders and allowed authorities to turn away migrants, including asylum seekers, even after american life return to normal and the biden ministration took over. and to date, migrants have been turned away from the border more than 2.4 million times since 2020. but by mid november, u.s. district of -- judge emmett sullivan ordered the administration to lift title 42 and gave them until december 21st, ten days from now, to comply. that order comes at a time when about 70 500 to 8000 undocumented crossings are happening each day at the southern border. those are near record high

numbers, and homeland security officials tell nbc news they fear that inning title 42 could cause a new surge that could push the number of migrant crossings up to 10,000 a day. the biden administration is appealing judge sullivan's ruling to contend that the cdc has the right to issue its public health order. they've also said they would comply with the order to lift title 42 ten days from now. preparing for the end of title 42 is not going to be cheap. a source tells nbc news that the white house has asked congress for more than $3 million to -- three billion dollars to help the department of homeland security in prepare for a possible increase in migrants from increasing policy. joining me now is caitlyn dickerson, former staff writer for -- good morning to you. a lot to cover here, it is a complicated issue that we can't do justice to in a few minutes, so i will try my best. let's first of all get into the specifics of what actually changes in today. 's you know this topic well, you've seen it firsthand, when title 42 gets lifted, what changes in terms of how somebody showing up at the u.s.

border it's treated and processed? >> so, when title 42 was lifted, we go back to the asylum process that existed prior to the coronavirus. which falls under title eight. which means that, as has been the case for decades prior, if somebody presents themselves at the border, or at a port of entry, or between them, it goes up to a border patrol agent says that i would like to request asylum, they are entered into a legal process where they will be able to make the case that they should be allowed to stay in the united states. now the biden ministration is piloting project that would allow some asylum adjudication's to happen much more quickly, because as many of your viewers know, right now that process can take years to complete, which immigration hard-liners argue is a draw. it is enticed more people to come to the united states knowing that they will be allowed to wait until the case is adjudicated. the biden ministration is

trying to address that on the other and, by saying that we should make pieces decisions more quickly. but basically when you lift title 42, you reestablish access to the legal asylum process that existed in this country for decades. >> we have an international obligation towards that. asylum seekers. but what the trump administration did, and i would argue a lot of organizations have done, nobody's done as well as the trump organization, but they blur the lines with asylum seekers, people seeking immigration status, people crossing borders and not official crossings, people crossing unofficial crossings, while became muddled. it became one thing to everybody. when you parse out the asylum part of it, people coming here saying, i'm escaping something dangerous in the country, i'm leaving. is that process, when you go back to it, going to work? or is it fundamentally broken as well? >> i think that it is broken. but you are right, ali, and it's not just an international obligation. the right to asylum is codified

into u.s. federal law. when the trump administration will talk about the need to enforce the law, the need to protect the rule of law, if congress has passed laws, we need to make sure that they are upheld. well the right to request asylum is codified into federal law, which you rarely heard acknowledged. i think what we are seeing here, which occurred with title 42, and began and the trump administration and it has extended now into the biden ministration, is that these white house are concerned about the political problem in both biden and trump are concerned about the political problem that will result when the american people see more people crossing the border, especially now with inflation the way that it is, the biden administration is worried about americans looking to the border and saying, my family is barely getting by right now. the country clearly doesn't have additional resources to spread around. ali, you and i have talked about the economic realities of more immigrants, that there is

lots of evidence that shows, really when it comes to new entrance, a rising tide lifts all boats. then we have major -- shortages that the new entrance helps to address. but the biden administration's reticence to acknowledge this head on, and rather just continue to put the band-aid on top of band-aid solution to try to prevent -- as many people from crossing as possible, is not going to shift the narrative, are not going to result in meaningful solutions. >> all right caitlin, a lot more to discuss on this, including where that three billion dollars of the administration is going to go, in where it should be esco. and so i will invite you back to continue this conversation with me. kaitlan dickerson is a staff writer at the atlantic covering immigration. i would recommend that you follow her and read her material, because this is an important issue and nobody knows more about this than caitlin. coming up next, an update on this morning's breaking news. u.s. officials say they've taken custody of a suspect connected to the 1988 lockerbie bombing. we will talk to our foreign

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news this morning, the department justice has confirmed that it has taken custody of a suspect allegedly involved in one of the deadliest terror attacks ever. abu agila mohammad masud kheir al-marimi, who is libyan, is accused of making the bomb that destroyed pam am flight 103 over lockerbie, scotland in

december 1st, 1988. that, flight headed from london to new york city, exploded over lockerbie killing all 259 people on board and another 11 on the ground. one or 19 those killed were americans. that is the deadliest terror tack ever on british soil. it comes nearly two years after than attorney william barr announced new charges against abu agila mohammad masud kheir al-marimi who was in libyan custody at the time. joining me now is my good friend nbc news foreign correspondent ali arouzi. ali arouzi, the story is more than 30 years in the making, and i have to say, i knew that he wasn't living custody, but we weren't expecting this. what do you know about it? >> that's right. we weren't expecting this. 34 years in the making, this man abu agila mohammad masud kheir al-marimi is accused of making the bomb that destroyed that pan am flight 103 over lockerbie. he's been taken into custody in the united states according to the department of justice. he's expected to make his initial appearance in the u.s. district court in the district

of columbia. a spokesman says prosecutors office in scotland, the bomb was over scotland, so that the families of those killed in the bombing had been a formed about masoud arrest and they will continue to continue the investigation and pursue everyone who aided abu agila mohammad masud kheir al-marimi in the bombing to justice. you remember in 2000, one abu agila mohammad masud kheir al-marimi was convicted in -- and he stood trial in the courts, in the netherlands, and he was jailed for life but he was released on compassionate grounds by the scottish in 2009 because he had been diagnosed with cancer. and then died in libya in 2012. into the, he was the only man convicted over the attacks. which was the worst terrorist attack on british soil. but last month, it was reported that masoud had been kidnapped by a militia in libya, leading to some speculation that he may

be handed over to american authorities, and here we are today. it was only about two years ago, the united states announced charges against masoud alleging that he played a key role in that bombing in 1988. they've obviously been pursuing this very doggedly over the last few years. and in libya, here it apparently been kidnapped masoud about a month ago. and now handed over to the americans. and he is in the united states now. >> what a remarkable and unexpected development. ali, thanks again for the context in the mountains on this. and your reporting. there's nothing that we cannot turn to you, ali arouzi joining us this morning, we will continue stand story. right after the break, the supreme court is facing scrutiny after a number of high-profile leaks and controversies. can a code of ethics fix it? the house judiciary committee thinks that it might. ks that it might feast... ...is the ultimate form of shell-fish-pression.

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mounting scrutiny for a number of counter versus surrounding the courts ethical integrity and security. first there are questions about whether justice clarence thomas should recuse himself from litigation laid the 2020 election, after his wife, ginni thomas, was accused of being involved in an effort to overturn the results. the january six committee found that ginni thomas exchange at least 29 text messages with the trump white house chief of staff mark meadows about the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. then there was the anonymously of justice alito's draft dobbs decision on abortion rights earlier this year. last month, and evangelical minister and former antiabortion activist named reverend rob schenck came forward alleging that he learned about another supreme court decision before it was amounts years ago. it evolved illuminate case on rules surrounding insurance coverage for birth control. the case in question was burwell versus hobby lobby.

the 5 to 4 supreme court ruling from 2014 allowed privately held companies to object on religious grounds to atomic era law that required employers to cover certain contraceptives for the female employees. that marked the courts first-time recognizing a for profit corporation to claim of religious belief. last month, reverend schenck told the new york times that he learned of the ruling after two of his donors had dinner with justice samuel alito, who had written the hobby lobby majority opinion. justice alito said that any suggestion that he prematurely spoke of the outcome of the ruling is quote, completely false. on thursday, reverend schenck testified at a hearing with the house judiciary committee called undue influence, operation higher court, and politicking at scotus. the hearing senator round that allegedly from 2014. during thursday's hearing, democrats focus on the need to pass legislation that would establish a binding code of ethics for the court, and stronger disclosure standards

for gifts and income the justices receive. >> we are now left wondering how much of this decision up ending decades of establish residents, was influenced by the organized wealthy donors lobbying to move the conservative justices to the right. the moral of the story is this. supreme court justices cannot effectively self police their own ethics. and we shouldn't expect them to. that established guideline, at best, we leave justices with the impossible an exhausting task of evaluating ethics without a clear standard. at worst, we have justices accepting over just from individuals seeking to influence the court, with little to no transparency. ethics should not be a partisan issue. >> that was a house judiciary committee charge airy now. they're while the committee investigates the court ethics standards, this term is in full swing. of the next couple of months, the supreme court will hear cases that will ask it to confront some of the most contentious political issues, including voting rights,

freedom of speech, election regulation, religious liberties, native sovereignty, affirmative action, and more. after the break, we will talk about all of it with the senior editor at slate dolley -- and the ceo and president of the constitution center, jeff rosen. ef rosen. the new monster has juicy steak and crispy bacon. but what about the new boss? it looks so good it makes me hangry! settle down there, big guy the new subway series. what's your pick? this holiday master your kitchen with wayfair.

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and t-shirts that feel good, and, most of all, do good. because when you purchase one, we donate one to those in need. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first purchase. bombas. give the good. (customer) hi? (burke) happy anniversary. (customer) for what? (burke) every year you're with us, you get fifty dollars toward your home deductible. it's a policy perk for being a farmers customer. (customer) do i have to do anything? (burke) nothing. (customer) nothing? (burke) nothing. (customer) nothing? (burke) nothing. (customer) hmm, that is really something. (burke) you get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. see ya. (kid) may i have a balloon, too? (burke) sure. your parents have maintained a farmers home policy for twelve consecutive months, right? ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ >> joining me now is dahlia

lithwick, senior editor for slate, host of the -- podcast and author the new york

times bestselling book, lady justice. jeff rosen's presidency of the national constitution center and professor at george washington law school and contributing editor at the atlantic. good morning both of you, good to see you, thank you for being with us. dahlia, i will say, i think it may come a surprise for a lot of people, nasa come to a surprise to a lot of people, but there isn't actually a co-develop except the governs the supreme court. i think we know that there aren't a ton of rolls around the supreme court, including a rule as to when you need to retire, but you wrote the other day that the fact that some of the justices believed that casual and social relationships with lobbyists, activists, and interested parties who have business before the court are appropriate unaccessible is the problem because it means that they cannot be trusted to avoid such contacts. it seems obvious what you wrote. what is the proposed solution to this? >> well i think you are right that there is no code of ethics but there also is one because there is a code of ethics that applies to all article three

judges, all federal judges, and it's just that it's not binding on the supreme court. and so they consulted, that is the word that the chief justice used, but they don't, they are not able to enforce it against one another. and they certainly don't appear to be enforcing it as against themselves. and so i think that this goes to this kind of cardinal, ancient principal that no man should be a judge in his own case. they are left to police themselves, and they, i think, do it by ways of feelings. if they feel it's okay for them to fly out with donors and have dinners at their mansions or at their clubs, and i think it is okay to pray with people who have interest before the courts, and that's where the inquiry stops. i think the solution is to make some version of the cannons encodes binding on them and have a way to enforce it. >> jeff, what is your take on

that? >> i agree. the bipartisan commission that president biden setup also recommended that the court adopt it will of ethics, and we have noted the difficulties that the courts have gotten themselves into faye allowing themselves to escape, abiding by the ethics codes voluntarily. there is an interesting constitutional question about whether congress could force the court to adopt this, because as there is a bill pending in congress, but chief justice roberts has suggested that if congress has the power to create the judicial conference which combines the lower courts, but because the supreme court is in apparently come up on constitution, congress cannot force it to obey ethics it doesn't want to. we also saw during the sexual harassment scandal, and the court under pressure adopted sexual harassment status for the entire judiciary. maybe less strict in congress would've adopted, but it just confirms dahlia basic point that the court has total discretion dak as it will.

i think the bottom line here is that at a time when the course legitimacy is under serious question, in light of jobs, chief justice roberts may recognize that it really is in the supreme court's own institutional legitimacy to adopt a code of conduct before one is forced on it. >> we have a lot of important cases before the court, and surprisingly, dahlia, there's a lot of conversation going into more the harper, which was hard this year about gerrymandering in north carolina. but a lot of jurist and experts say that it has implications that are far greater than jerry meandering in north carolina. it can actually determine elections and president elections in the future. and the new york times has been reporting, another weapon listening to it, to say that the court seemed split on it. there are three conservative justices who seemed to be prepared to entertain some version of the independent state legislator theory, very progressive judges who will not, and then three whom we don't know enough about, we don't know whether that means that the case prevails or that there

is some sort of compromise that comes out of it. your thoughts? >> based on listening to the arguments, ali, which one for three hours, it was a monster oral argument. i think it is fair to say that the things that you and i talked about a few weeks ago, when we previewed the case, the most maximalist, the most sort of a big swing arguments were not going to find five votes. not clear that they were going to find for. it seemed to me that those three justices sort of in the middle, chief justice john roberts seems not at all interested in the independent state legislature doctrine or applying it the way the north carolina once. it felt as though justices kavanaugh and bear it were not interested, again, in the super super nuclear version of it that was being floated by north carolina. whether they can find some principle midway, and what they routed it and, i think is the question. for those of us who went in

thinking that war v harper's but to change voting as we know it for all time, i am not sure that the court is really really interested in doing that. >> jeff, dahlia now and i had this conversation, and you actually introduced me to judge -- and he is a conservative. a lot of people, and this is an entirely, effect is not really partisan, it shouldn't be, it's looking like that on the supreme court, but it shouldn't be, but they're a lot of conservatives who say that this independent state legislator doctrine is a french interpretation of the constitution. s >> there are indeed, and as dahlia said, it looks like the majority of the court will agree. the maximalist position, as she identified, it doesn't seem to get a majority in the court, and that position would allow a legislature after the fact to change the results of an election. and instead, it is significant, as dahlia has said, that justices kavanaugh and barrett were going towards a moderate solution. you can imagine chief justice roberts embracing it to.

if that quite aces moderate position, which shows that state courts cannot completely change the law in dramatic ways, well interpreting elections, but a federal court should be deferential to their interpretations. that would be significant, but not a radical game-changer of any kind. and will basically bring in this extreme textualists interpretation that has little support in constitutional history, and reach a more moderate result. it's interesting that the same dynamics seem to be going on in the recent case involving the web designer who didn't want to advertise weddings for gay couples. the maximalist position would say that anytime a religious person wants an exemption from anti discrimination laws, it should be able to take it. we are once again, justices kavanaugh, robin, barrett, seem to be grappling towards a more moderate compromised says that web designers are special. they're artist, but they're not like limousine drivers or other professions. and therefore, this is not

going to drive a hole through antidiscrimination laws. and this is really the dynamic we are not seeing on the new roberts court. there are a couple of really significant cases like the ones we have been describing, when it does seem to be this more moderate center emerging. by contrast, there are a series of really important cases, most notably affirmative action in the voting rights case but you mentioned where we are likely to see a very strong 6 to 3 majority, totally polarized effort to find a compromise. that seems to be where we are in their early terms of this term. >> and you pointed, out at least a couple cases, there are whole lot of important cases on the docket this season. paula, what stands out to you, what is the one other than more v harper that we're talking about right now, what is the one that you're most interested in or worried about, happy about? >> there's not much that i am super happy about to be candid, but i will say, i think jeff check off the big boxes. i think possibly the end of affirmative action in higher education. the indian child welfare act

under assault. and meaningful questions about whether that will survive. and just voting rights, gerrymandering, racial gerrymanders are all on the docket. i think i said before, and i really do feel, than almost everything that didn't yet addressed last term is being addressed this term. there's not a lot left over a table between last time in this term. and i think that if we remember, or at least i remember, and i think jeff would agree, we have two or three blockbusters a year. now we are looking at six or seven, including the clean water act. >> and so, for those people who think that dobbs as the biggest thing, it may have well been the biggest thing, there are lot of really big things before the court. jeff, your take on the ones, i know you will recall of them, and all the dissents. you don't like to choose, but for my viewers, what should they be reading into? >> again, dahlia, she identified the major cases, but viewers, as we are preparing to

have these cases come down, the read the briefs in the affirmative action case. the voting rights case, the independent legislature case in the website a case, and you can read the majority opinion, read the dissent, make up your mind. we are in the middle of a historic change in the law. and under the name of textualism, the court's overturning a huge number of presidents that go back to the new deal era or before. some people think it's correct, others will disagree, but it is really significant how we could've acted on first principles like no other time since talia and i have been covering the court which is a very long time indeed, remarkable times for the supreme court in very significant news on the horizon. >> and you are the two perfect people have on this many top us understanding. i know it's not easy, it's like giving people an extra helping of brussels sprouts, but you might want to read these briefings -- briefings about these cases, because they're really important, and really gonna fact you, and it will affect the future of democracy this country. thank you to both of you. jeffrey rosen is the president ceo of the national constitution center, dahlia

with which is the senior editor at slate and a host of the amicus podcast. she's also the author of the new york times bestselling book lady justice, that is it for me, thank you for watching, cashmere next iran sunday morning from it into 2 am eastern, follow me on social media, including the twitter alternatives, post news and masks on. my candles are right there on the screen. and don't forget, though she is also available on a podcast. you can listen to our satire show on the go anytime, subscribed listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. it's bernstein for me, but you should stay right where you are, because a sunday show with my friend jonathan carp -- part is right now. s right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >>. . ,